0:00

Most of you already know some of

0:02

the story of Enoch Burkes. But

0:04

here are the basics. Mister Burke

0:06

from County Mail was suspended

0:09

from his job as a teacher in a school and

0:11

county US meet. Then

0:13

he was jailed for contempt of court

0:15

for refusing to follow a

0:17

court order to stay away from the

0:19

school multi farner while he

0:21

was suspended.

0:22

Enochberg was taken from a high court this

0:24

evening to mountjoy prison. He was jailed

0:26

for breaching and injunction granted last week

0:29

and for refusing to give any undertaking that

0:31

he would stop reaching it. Enoch

0:33

Burkes says the case is actually about his

0:35

right not to call a trans student

0:38

by their preferred pronouns. Having

0:40

to do so says mister Burke would

0:42

be against his religious beliefs, and

0:45

it is this interpretation of

0:47

the case that has caught lots of

0:49

international attention from people

0:51

like Pieris Morgan. This extraordinary story

0:53

of a schoolteacher in Ireland because

0:55

he wouldn't use the right pronoun he's

0:58

now in prison. For months,

1:00

Burke has been sitting in jail, to

1:02

his supporters, he's a martyr, and

1:04

to the legal and judicial system,

1:07

his case is becoming a bit

1:09

of a

1:09

headache. There are concerns that

1:11

under civil contempt, you can go to prison

1:14

and you don't have the normal protections. There

1:16

will apply if you are jailed in

1:18

criminal proceedings. This is

1:20

in the news from the Irish Times. I'm Connor

1:22

Pope. Today, I talk to my colleagues

1:24

Mary Carlin and Jennifer O'Connell

1:26

about the awkward case of Innoch Burkes.

1:32

Mary Caroline is Legal Affairs correspondent

1:34

with The Arch Times. Mary, I wonder if we could

1:36

start with the imprisoning of Inoc Burke.

1:39

Why exactly was he jailed

1:41

over one hundred days ago? He

1:44

was jailed on September fifth

1:47

ITN all goes back to he

1:49

objected to an email sent by

1:51

the skilled principal, which request

1:53

to teach at the school is to refer to a transitioning

1:56

pupil by their chosen

1:58

new name and by the Pronan Day

2:01

and mister Burke had sent

2:03

number of emails to the principal. I

2:06

understand recording his objections to

2:09

that directive. And there

2:11

was a school a public school event

2:13

in June, and he approached

2:15

the principal in the presence of

2:18

other members of school staff and

2:20

people attending the school event. It was a

2:22

religious event to mark

2:25

the centenary of the school's founder.

2:28

And when he approached

2:30

the principal, he sought to raise the

2:32

issue of the email that had been

2:34

sent to teachers. And

2:36

she told them it wasn't the appropriate place

2:38

at time. And then

2:41

essentially, she compiled a report

2:43

in relation to its behavior at that

2:45

event. And as a result of death,

2:47

the school initiated a disciplinary process

2:50

in August, and mister

2:53

Burke ITN placed mister Burke unpaid

2:55

administrative leave in

2:57

September. And asked him not

2:59

to attend at the school. And

3:01

when you continued to do so

3:03

and he would sit in the classroom and

3:05

say he was dare to teach. And

3:07

when he continued to do

3:09

that, the school applied to the high court

3:11

for orders restraining him

3:14

doing so. When he continued to

3:16

attend and breached those orders, it brought

3:18

applications to commit him and that

3:20

led to his commitment on September

3:22

the fifth. And he has been a man joy

3:24

presence. Jennifer

3:28

O'Connell has written about the case for the

3:30

Irish Times. Jennifer Burkes has

3:32

repeatedly said that he's in jail because

3:34

of his religious objections to

3:37

transgenderism or because he and

3:39

this is a quote, would not call

3:41

a boy, a girl. But you

3:43

take an issue with that

3:44

characterization. Why is that? Well, I

3:46

do because he's not in jail because

3:48

of transgenderism nothing to do

3:50

with that. He's not in jail because of pronouns,

3:52

and he's not in jail because of his religious

3:54

beliefs or his political beliefs. He's

3:56

in jail because he refused to comply

3:59

with the court order that he should abide by

4:01

the terms of his suspension and and stay away

4:03

from the school and where he's been suspended.

4:06

But because he won't do that, he's

4:08

in civil contempt, and that means that he's

4:10

now been in in ManJoy for I think it's a

4:12

hundred and five days today. On the on the day

4:14

we're recording the the podcast. And

4:16

he has on numerous occasions subsequently

4:18

refused to purge that contempt. And

4:20

even last Friday, he told the high court he wasn't

4:22

interested in what he called a Christmas

4:24

gift of being let out of prison for the holidays,

4:27

which could have happened while the school at the center of

4:29

of the row is shut. So he's he's in

4:31

he's in jail, really, I suppose because of his own

4:33

actions, because he refuses to by the

4:35

terms of his suspension. And it really,

4:37

despite his best efforts to make this

4:39

a kind of a culture war's issue, it

4:42

isn't about transgenderism, and it

4:44

isn't about pronance. And and the

4:46

only I I suppose the only way in which you can

4:48

say it is about transgenderism is

4:50

that at the center of it, there is

4:52

this fifteen year old child who

4:54

we've heard very little about who has has sort of

4:56

found themselves in the middle of the storm and nobody

4:58

seems to be, you know, terribly concerned for

5:00

for for the child's welfare. But

5:03

it it's it's about Enoch Burkes in

5:05

jail because of his refusal to comply with the terms

5:07

of his suspension. Enoch Burke

5:09

has become something of a martyr in the

5:11

culture wars, where

5:13

has the support been coming

5:15

from? Yeah. It it it he's become,

5:17

I suppose, the the source of a

5:19

really strange coalition of support.

5:22

And some of them, I think, probably make

5:24

for quite uneasy bedfellows when they look at each

5:26

other. So when he was originally jailed

5:28

back in September, his case was taken up on social

5:30

media by the Canadian psychologist, Jordan

5:32

Peterson, who's a man described by The New York

5:34

Times as a custodian of the patriarchy.

5:37

Mhmm. He's also being the subject

5:39

of of supportive tweets by

5:42

peers Morgan. tabloid editor and

5:44

professional Meghan Mark and Bader. And

5:47

then there's a whole coalition of

5:50

so called gender critical feminist

5:52

organizations. Like women's

5:54

space Ireland and the organization, Jen Spect,

5:56

which would say it's it's not gender critical, and

5:58

who are also have been

6:00

coming out in support of of Ino Burkes.

6:02

So It's kind of an odd situation where

6:04

you have the custodian of the

6:06

patriarchy and feminist organizations all

6:08

sort of coalescing around this

6:10

this this person that they see.

6:12

As being at the center of a a culture

6:14

war. Jennifer,

6:19

can you remind listeners who

6:21

Enoch Brook is. So

6:23

Connor Enoch Brook is a school teacher and

6:25

he is the author of a self published book

6:28

called a hedonism and homosexuality of

6:30

John Piper and Sam Ulbury, the

6:32

truth of scripture. No. I can't confess to having read

6:34

it myself. I did read some of

6:36

the Amazon reviews of it, and they were

6:38

mixed to say the least. Mhmm. And

6:40

he's currently suspended from his teaching job

6:42

at Wilson's House total school, which is a

6:44

private, Protestant, co educational school

6:46

in county, Smedes. And I

6:48

suppose before this year, he

6:50

wouldn't have been the best known of the Burkes and

6:52

we might talk about some of his brothers

6:54

and sisters in a moment. But he previously

6:57

ran for a quality officer at NUI

6:59

GOL Way in twenty fourteen. And

7:01

in twenty fifteen, he calls live line

7:03

to argue that a Joe Caslan bureau

7:05

of of two men kissing, which this

7:07

was about a month before the marriage equality referendum

7:10

and he argued that it should be painted over as it

7:12

hadn't has a planning

7:13

permission. Okay.

7:14

Okay. Ina porkers and coffee. Ina,

7:16

good afternoon. Good

7:17

afternoon, Johannes.

7:18

You're listening to the discussion. Your

7:21

point, please. Is Martina's point what do you think of

7:23

Martina's point that it is it

7:25

is a legal I think this is a brilliant

7:27

point that she's making. That's very well made.

7:29

He's not forecasting anybody. He's just really

7:31

saying that we want justice on this issue.

7:33

Really quite incompatible with the LEGIS region.

7:35

And I thought that the teacher, myself, who

7:37

likes to have an AI, act to find the students

7:39

that I that I work with. I'm

7:42

very aware that with the definition

7:44

of my design, what we bring in, the system, the time that

7:46

I'm what we bring in has a idea that I spoke to my

7:48

students, will be totally changed on that's not

7:50

really compatible with my religious

7:52

freedom. By the way, you know you

7:54

know you share the same surname

7:56

with Martina, are you related? Not that that

7:58

makes any

7:58

difference, but are you related?

8:00

No. I'm not from Dublin. No.

8:02

No. He related to Martina Brook. I

8:04

have

8:05

didn't hear the initial comments. I'm not

8:07

sure. It's Martina. Martina, you

8:09

related to Rina Brook. Are

8:12

you are you Martina? I

8:14

think the lady up there told her how to answer,

8:16

actually. I I just I just feel Oh,

8:18

so no. By the way, it's involved in that Okay.

8:20

No. No. Just not just not to

8:22

be asked here, but I see anyway, it makes no

8:24

difference, by the way. Make

8:27

open. I think I know you are, so you are

8:29

related.

8:33

He's one of ten adult children of a

8:35

couple called Sean and Martina Burke, and

8:37

they range an age from around nineteen

8:39

or twenty nine or two by thirty four.

8:41

They have a track record

8:43

of exceptional educational

8:46

achievement. Mhmm. They've had an

8:48

unconventional upbringing, but I suppose

8:50

the thing that they're all homeschooled is not right. They

8:52

were all homeschooled by my Tina

8:54

herself in an act actually

8:56

ITN a classroom that was built on to the house and

8:58

people who've been there and have seen it have described

9:00

it to me. As being like a small library,

9:03

you know, it's extremely well stocked. And

9:05

Martina takes the education of her

9:07

children and they're religious

9:09

formation and their

9:11

protection, I think, from some of the stresses

9:13

and anxiety anxieties

9:15

of the modern world. She takes that very

9:17

seriously, and she takes her role as a

9:19

parent very seriously and has spoken about

9:21

that in in public. What are the best known

9:23

for Jennifer? Yeah. So I think the reason

9:25

why listeners be familiar with the Burkes is their

9:27

pursuit of a number of really high

9:29

profile legal actions. And

9:31

during these cases, they often represent

9:33

themselves and Sometimes

9:35

they their behavior ITN course has

9:37

attracted some headlines. They'll they'll

9:39

frequently interrupt proceedings. Sometimes

9:42

even make allegations about other

9:44

members of the court. And

9:46

they're so well known actually for

9:48

their use of the courts to settle disputes that there

9:50

was a time, I think, early last year when there was

9:52

a nine million euro lotto jackpot,

9:54

one in Cassel Bar. And the joke

9:56

immediately went around locally that it must have been

9:58

the who wouldn't given the kind of likely costs

10:00

involved in these cases. Talk

10:02

to me a little bit about some of the

10:04

other who've made news headlines in

10:06

recent years because Einnock is

10:08

very much not alone in making

10:10

the news. He surely isn't. No.

10:12

And I mean, if we were to go through all of

10:14

their legal cases, we might need an entire

10:16

podcast dedicated to it. But

10:18

earlier this year, his mother Martina,

10:21

who I've mentioned earlier, and his sister,

10:23

Amy, made headlines over some

10:25

interjections that they made to the

10:27

workplace relations commission. Now this was

10:29

during an unfair dismissal's

10:31

claim against the law firm, Arthur

10:33

Cox, that Amy was taking, and that was

10:35

eventually thrown out. But I think the reason why it

10:37

attracted so much attention and and

10:39

was the most read story on the Irish Times

10:41

for days afterwards where the

10:43

repeated interrupt by Martina that kind of

10:45

prevented the hearing from going ahead. In

10:47

one case, I think for more than five hours on

10:49

a single day, Now another

10:51

sister, Jimima, she came to

10:53

prominence the previous year when she

10:55

heckled doctor Tony Holahan at an

10:57

effort Burkes briefing. That was ITN, actually, in May

10:59

twenty twenty. When she claimed

11:01

that she was representing the western news,

11:03

but that's a publication that doesn't even

11:06

exist. And I think other journalists who had been

11:08

at all the briefings were surprised

11:10

and had no idea who she was and hadn't seen

11:12

her there earlier. And

11:14

she later became very

11:16

invested in in the tragic death of

11:18

teenager, seventeen year old teenager called Salimaz

11:20

who died at Mayo University Hospital

11:23

in April twenty twenty. She

11:25

would have later attended. She wrote about

11:27

Salimaz in her as as a journalist,

11:29

and she later attended

11:31

some of the the inquest surrounding her

11:33

death. And at at one

11:35

point, she other members of the family had to be

11:37

removed from the inquest after repeatedly

11:39

interrupting those proceedings. Wow. So

11:41

that's two of them. Then there's another brother

11:43

Elijah. Elijah won a

11:45

landmark Supreme Court judgment, which found that he and

11:47

other homeschool students have been unlawfully

11:49

excluded from the the predicted

11:51

grades for twenty twenty. Leaving search calculated

11:53

grade schemes since that they they were

11:55

homeschooled. So there wasn't a teacher there who was able

11:57

to objectively, I suppose was the argument,

11:59

assess their performance. And

12:02

then four of the

12:04

siblings. So this this is army

12:06

and enoch who we've been speaking about, but

12:08

also a brother Isaac and a

12:10

sister Kaziya. They lost a

12:12

case in GOLWEISS circuit court over

12:14

a row about a decision

12:16

to to ban them from life

12:18

first from societies that I knew I go

12:19

away. Isaac Enoch Kuesia and

12:22

Ami Burke were all sanctioned after

12:24

an investigation into material

12:26

distributed by NUI Gowei's

12:28

Christian Union Society. An

12:31

entity described in court as being for all

12:33

intents and purposes, the theft

12:35

of the siblings.

12:36

Another brother, Simeon, I think Simeon

12:38

might be the youngest he ran a student

12:40

union president in NUI GOL Way

12:42

in twenty twenty one under the

12:44

slogan, a president for the money

12:46

not the mob. And he ran on, I suppose,

12:48

what you might call, a kind of, an anti woke or

12:50

an anti social justice

12:52

platform. And but that

12:54

contest became very acrimonious

12:56

and and quite personalized. And

12:58

he claimed afterwards that he had been

13:00

the victim of a of a prolonged

13:02

online bullying campaign. And actually,

13:04

some people who I spoke to when I wrote about

13:06

this previously said that although they

13:08

didn't like Simeon's politics and they didn't like what

13:10

he stood for they felt

13:12

actually ultimately really sorry for him. They've said that

13:14

he was a product of his environment, and he seems like

13:16

quite a nice person and quite a gentle person on a

13:18

one on one basis. But like

13:20

all of the Birx, you know, he's

13:22

very he he feels very strongly

13:24

about the things that he believes in and he

13:26

pursues his principles really

13:28

strongly. And some people might feel I quite

13:30

aggressively and that doesn't endear them to

13:32

everybody that they come across. Now that's not

13:34

true of all of them and there are a couple

13:36

of other sisters who have been a little bit

13:38

quieter than than than Amy and some of the

13:40

boys. A sister Kazia has won

13:42

academic awards for an essay in

13:44

mathematics and physics. There's also a sister

13:46

Esther who I've been in touch with and

13:48

via email on occasion, who's a school

13:50

teacher, who's very well regarded by her

13:52

students, and there's a

13:54

sister Karen who has been very quiet and

13:56

I I don't know much about her except she

13:58

may be a student in GMIT.

14:02

That's the Burkes

14:05

family history, and there's nothing

14:07

in it that suggests this situation is

14:09

going to be resolved easily. But

14:12

surely, enochberg can't be imprisoned

14:14

forever. Coming

14:16

up, I talked to Mary Carolyn about the

14:18

law around contempt, and Bob's

14:20

might have in this case. Enoch

14:27

Park was jailed for contempt of

14:29

court. But there's more than one variety

14:31

of contempt of court, which is

14:33

relevant to how this case could come to an

14:35

end, as Mary Carolyn explains.

14:38

So how does civil contempt of court

14:40

differ from criminal contempt of

14:41

court? Or indeed, is there any difference?

14:43

Essentially, criminal contempt

14:46

is punitive ITN intended

14:48

to punish someone for interfering

14:51

with court proceedings, our

14:53

judicial decision say

14:55

standing up in court shouting at the

14:57

judge, that that kind of thing.

14:59

Civil contempt is where

15:01

somebody breaches an order

15:03

made in civil proceedings. And

15:06

that's what, you know, Burkes the

15:08

proceedings involving the school and himself

15:10

for proceedings and not criminal proceedings.

15:13

Civil contempt is meant,

15:15

it's coercive, it's meant

15:17

to kind of effectively persuade

15:20

people to comply with

15:22

court orders. And

15:24

really, imprisonment is seen as

15:26

a sanction of last resort in

15:28

relation to civil contempt. The

15:30

courts often just give people a

15:32

dressing down and they agree to

15:34

abide with our every court order they disobeyed.

15:37

In some rare cases,

15:39

people refuse to abide and they go

15:41

to prison. And that's of

15:43

indefinite duration. And that is one of the

15:45

problems of civil contempt and one of

15:47

the problems with the fact that there's no

15:49

statute governing this. So

15:51

there's no statute and you you had

15:53

a phrase there in deafness duration.

15:56

Does that mean effectively that a

15:58

person Not that you know, Brooke, but any

16:00

person could be jailed forever

16:03

if they were held to be in contempt of court

16:05

on a civil basis. Indefiliation

16:09

means nobody really knows how

16:11

long it's going to be. You couldn't

16:13

be jail forever. I suspect be lots

16:15

of our forty applications and

16:17

everything else. It just wouldn't

16:19

happen in real life, but

16:22

can go on for a long period. I

16:24

mean, in Burkes we all know, it's over a

16:26

hundred days. I mean, a lot

16:28

of people argue it's up to the

16:30

person jailed. They can they

16:32

can say they want to come to court

16:34

anytime and purge their contempt and they'll

16:36

be immediately released. But there

16:38

are concerns at at

16:40

that under civil contempt, you

16:42

can go to prison and you don't have the

16:44

normal protections that would apply if

16:46

you are jailed ITN criminal proceedings.

16:49

What would it take for

16:51

Inoc Burkes to walk free right

16:54

now? Okay. Well, the judge

16:56

Connery Dignum listed the case before

16:58

him last week.

17:01

And the reason he did that was because

17:03

the school will be on holidays this

17:05

week. The court seems to be seen

17:07

this as an opportunity where mister

17:10

Burke could be released over

17:12

Christmas and perhaps the court is thinking he

17:14

might have time to reflect them

17:16

and might kind of decide to

17:18

purchase contemptor. There might be a way

17:21

around it. It's not

17:23

totally dependent on him or the

17:25

spill. The the court always has

17:27

discretion to police its orders in the

17:29

manner of things So

17:31

even the Burkes maintains his

17:33

position that I want to be

17:35

released on my own terms and I want

17:37

to be released on the basis of the

17:39

court saying I should never have been

17:41

imprisoned. The court had ignored

17:43

us. It could

17:45

release him with an

17:47

order that if he doesn't undertake

17:49

by say the day before the school is

17:51

due to go back, to not

17:54

attend at the school, then he will

17:56

be automatically arrested and

17:58

brought back to prison. In terms

18:00

of mister own position,

18:02

he has repeatedly said he he can't

18:04

he can't and won't

18:07

purchase contempt because that would be contrary

18:09

to his religious beliefs. So

18:11

And when the case was last before

18:13

the court, he reiterated

18:15

that position and,

18:17

unless there's some enormous

18:20

seats changed in the last

18:22

few days. That

18:24

seems he will maintain his position.

18:28

So really that leaves debole in the

18:30

court ITN the court hands. And

18:32

what's his demeanor been liking court? And what

18:34

indeed has the atmosphere been liking

18:36

court? Well, mister Burkes,

18:39

he is always

18:41

very clear and why

18:44

what he believed there are the reasons

18:46

why he is in prison. He

18:49

regularly repeats that

18:51

he is there because a breach of

18:54

his religious conver his constitutional

18:56

right to religious belief that

18:58

he shouldn't be in prison. He says

19:00

he wants to be out. He wants to be

19:02

teaching students and

19:05

he has accused the

19:07

the court, somehow, be quite

19:09

forcefully of breach of his

19:11

rights sometimes there have been angry scenes

19:13

and upset scenes involving

19:15

both himself and members of

19:17

his family. And at

19:20

one of the court of appeal hearings.

19:23

His mother was escorted

19:25

from the court after she

19:28

burated the judge for not giving an

19:30

earlier appeal hearing, and

19:32

Inuk Burke himself was also

19:34

removed a couple of times until

19:37

the court felt that the order had

19:39

been restored. In

19:45

a piece in the Irish Times on Saturday, Jennifer,

19:47

you made it clear that you find it hard to

19:49

muster any sympathy for someone who's not a

19:52

victim of anything other than their

19:54

own warped belief system, and that's your quote. But you

19:56

also add us that while it is

19:58

possible to find Inoc Burks views

20:00

utterly apparent, There's

20:02

also an unease at his ongoing

20:05

imprisonment. Where's that sense of unease

20:07

actually come

20:07

from? Do you think? Well, I mean, if if

20:09

you told me a few months ago that of all

20:11

the things I'd end up writing in twenty twenty

20:13

two, one of them would be something sort

20:16

of suggesting that we should let you know work at

20:18

a jail at this point. I'd have been very

20:20

surprised. I mean, as I said in

20:22

my piece, you know,

20:24

it's not it's it's ITN comfortable because for me

20:26

to be in to find myself kind of

20:28

defending enough rights to

20:30

freedom. But the reality is that

20:32

I am uneasy at I think we

20:34

should all be a bit uneasy at the notion that any

20:36

individual in the state can be

20:38

indefinitely incarcerated over a matter of

20:40

civil contempt. And it it gets back to a

20:42

flaw, I think, or what some legal

20:44

experts would regard as flaws in our

20:46

or maybe not even flaws, but anomalies

20:48

or inconsistencies in our

20:50

attempt system. So if if you were

20:52

found guilty of criminal contempt the

20:55

sense that you had say you tried to derail a

20:57

court case or you'd made false

20:59

allegations, against a judge or you had knowingly prejudice

21:01

a trial, you would be dealt

21:03

with by a fine or by a finite term

21:05

in prison. So you might be sent to an employee for a month

21:07

or for three months. But

21:09

because civil contempt is designed to be coercive

21:12

rather than punitive, so it's designed to

21:14

force you to do something that you otherwise wouldn't

21:16

do. It's not designed to punish you.

21:18

But that means that the term of imprisonment is

21:21

indefinite. And the idea is that it's

21:23

supposed to be coercive. But the

21:25

problem is that if the person who

21:27

is supposed to be coerced, just refuses to allow that

21:29

to happen, then you end up in this

21:31

ridiculous impasse where somebody is

21:33

in jail indefinitely they

21:36

won't purge their contempt because they they

21:38

can't. They believe they can't do

21:40

so. And the judge sees no option but to send

21:42

them back to my joy, then how does this end? You

21:44

know, it can go on forever. ITN suppose

21:46

an Burkes case.

21:48

It's really clear I think now that

21:50

either because of his maybe his

21:52

religious zeal or his own obsession

21:55

with with issues around transgenderism

21:57

or his personal principles or

21:59

maybe because of his imagined grievances against

22:01

the legal system or, you know, maybe his upbringing or

22:03

some combination of all these factors. But

22:05

he clearly does not see purging his

22:08

contempt as a route opened him.

22:10

I mean, He looks like and sounds like he's

22:12

in agony and he does not want to be in jail

22:14

anymore and he is not enjoying this

22:16

experience. He doesn't really seem to be enjoying the

22:18

platform that he has created a random self but think

22:20

he really doesn't believe that he is any choice

22:22

in the matter, but to go back to jail,

22:24

he will not and cannot he says purge

22:26

his contempt. So what happens

22:28

next? What's your primary

22:31

concern here? Is this a

22:33

civil liberties issue that we're

22:34

discussing? Yeah. I think I am concerned

22:37

about it from a civil liberties point of view. And

22:39

you know, it's it's not so much that my heart is

22:41

breaking a tube with sympathy for, you know, Brooke

22:43

because as I said, you know, I I don't like

22:45

a lot of a lot of what he stands for, and I wouldn't share his

22:47

views on a lot of issues. But I think you or I

22:49

or any of us should be a little bit uneasy at

22:52

the idea that one of us could

22:54

be held for an indefinite

22:56

term in Matt Joy over an

22:58

issue of civil contempt. So, you know,

23:00

for example, if you were I

23:02

were requested by a judge to hand over

23:04

a notebook which contained the names of

23:06

some confidential sources on the story,

23:09

and we decided not to do that,

23:11

and we were found to be in contempt I wouldn't

23:13

like the idea that we could be held in

23:15

contempt for an indefinite term until we

23:17

agreed to purge our contempt, which as journalists, we

23:19

wouldn't be able to do because we are ethically

23:21

banned protect our sources. So

23:23

you you would like to see that we could come

23:25

up with some kind of creative solution

23:27

whereby a fine is imposed

23:29

or even a definite term of imprisonment, but something that

23:31

has that has an end in sight.

23:35

That's it

23:37

for today. Thanks

23:39

to Jennifer O'Connell and Mary Carlin. This episode was

23:42

produced by Declyn Carlin. We'll be

23:44

back soon.