0:01

Welcome to In Via the podcast

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where we're navigating the pilgrimage of life

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. We are all in via

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on the way and we are learning a

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lot as we go . I'm your host

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, Joan Watson . Join me as we listen

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to stories , discover travel tips

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and learn more about our Catholic faith . Along

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the way , we'll see that if God seeks to

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meet us in Jerusalem , Rome or Santiago

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, he also wants to encounter you

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right there in your car , on

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your run or in the middle of your workday

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. Welcome

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back , listeners . Welcome back to In

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Via the podcast , where we are navigating

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the daily pilgrimage of life , and

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we are in the midst of a mini series where we

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are looking at Christian pilgrimage

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to various historical pilgrimage

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sites . We have looked at the

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history of pilgrimage with our Jewish brothers

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and sisters . We've also looked at the Christian

0:52

pilgrimages to the Holy Land , and today

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we are going to talk about one of my favorite cities

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on this planet Earth , Rome , and

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I am joined today with Dr

1:02

Timothy O'Donnell , the president

1:04

of Christendom College . Hi , Dr O'Donnell .

1:06

Oh Joannie , how are you ? I am great

1:08

it's great to be with you .

1:10

It's great to have you here . Full disclosure

1:12

to my listeners . I am an alum

1:14

of Christendom College and was blessed

1:17

to have Dr O'Donnell as a leader

1:19

, not just as president , but also as a professor

1:21

. So I'm very excited to talk

1:23

to you today about a city I know you love

1:25

Rome .

1:26

You got souls out of purgatory by having me as your

1:28

teacher .

1:30

I don't think that at all . They're streaming out all the time

1:32

, that's great . Do

1:34

you mind telling our listeners ? I

1:37

usually ask my guests if

1:39

they could only tell people three sentences about

1:42

themselves , what would you say

1:44

? So I'm going to ask you that and then see

1:46

if you can give us three .

1:48

In three sentences . Okay , that's why I'm already

1:50

talking too much , no , no , well

1:52

, basically the thing that

1:54

I'm in terms of who I am I'm

1:57

a dad . I'm married , I'm a father

1:59

. God blessed us with nine

2:01

children . I married a wonderful woman , Kathy , who's

2:04

been such a wonderful support over so

2:06

many years . God blessed us with

2:09

six boys and three girls

2:11

, and so father

2:13

, which is a big thing , also , I think

2:16

, a teacher . I absolutely love teaching . Though I've

2:18

been president , I still think of myself even

2:20

in my presidential role in terms of teaching

2:23

, you know , exhorting , trying to help people through

2:25

liberal arts and through education to grow

2:27

closer to our Lord through

2:29

that . And so those would

2:31

be the two sentences . And

2:34

then , as far as yeah , I guess the other

2:36

thing I would say yeah , I've been president for 32

2:38

years , so , being president of Christendom College

2:40

, I would have to say that would probably be the

2:43

big thing . So , married

2:45

father , teacher

2:47

and president , those would probably be the three

2:49

things .

2:50

I love it . How many grandkids are you at

2:52

now ?

2:53

We have 19 right now .

2:56

That's so wonderful .

2:58

And one of our daughters is actually a cloistered

3:00

poor Clare and the

3:02

best in-laws in the world .

3:04

Yes , yes you know the other

3:07

in-laws can't compete with you .

3:08

That's absolutely true . But they can take advantage

3:10

of those in-laws , as we are too . But

3:13

it's been wonderful . So it took me a

3:15

while to get used to grandpa . But

3:17

after the last

3:19

child we're empty nesters now . Kind of

3:21

they keep coming back . But

3:24

you know , once we became empty nesters then I just

3:26

really totally embraced the whole grandpa thing taking

3:28

for tractor rides and things like that and

3:31

it's , the grandchildren are such a beautiful thing

3:33

, so innocent , so good , and it's

3:35

just they're just an absolute delight . So there's

3:37

19 right now . That's exciting

3:39

, that's wonderful Number 20 is on the way .

3:42

Oh , that's great , so there are twenty , that's great , oh

3:44

, that's exciting .

3:45

I'm sorry , that's true . That's true .

3:48

So we are here to talk about pilgrimage and

3:51

the whole podcast is about pilgrimage , but

3:53

today we're specifically thinking

3:55

about Rome . But I like to

3:57

kind of , I guess , because my work is in pilgrimage

3:59

now it really makes

4:01

me wonder why pilgrimage

4:03

is a major part in so many religions

4:06

. Why is the heart drawn

4:09

towards pilgrimage and I'd love to hear your opinion of

4:11

that , because we see it not just

4:13

in Christianity why are

4:15

we drawn to pilgrimage ?

4:17

Well , I think , in a certain sense , anyone

4:19

who's born on planet Earth recognized

4:22

that life itself is a journey . I

4:24

mean , there's different stages that you're going

4:27

through and I think pilgrimage

4:29

even the notion of pilgrimage , it always implies

4:31

some form of faith , some form

4:33

of religiosity , and I think

4:36

the fact that everyone , just on the natural level

4:38

, recognizes that we are

4:40

all on a journey towards some

4:42

goal and different religions have given

4:44

different answers . With Christianity we have

4:46

the one true answer , the beautiful answer

4:48

that we're destined to the beatific

4:50

vision of the Triune God and be

4:52

able to see that , with all the accidental joys

4:54

of loved ones and friends , Everyone else is going

4:56

to be up there and seeing the Blessed Mother , all

4:59

of those things will be great . So that's

5:01

such a beautiful goal . I

5:03

remember when little Francesco , one of the visionaries

5:05

at Fatima , just before his

5:07

death , had a vision of Blessed Mother and said , just

5:10

said , I want to go to heaven . I want to go to heaven and

5:12

that's just with seeing Mary . So you can

5:14

imagine when we get to the Viet Nam Ig , when

5:16

we see the Triune , god , infinite beauty , goodness

5:19

and things . So I think that type of

5:21

thing is sort of instinctive . Man is naturally

5:23

religious we are homo-religionis , you

5:25

know and so I think the

5:27

fact that in pilgrimage we're

5:29

sort of answering that instinctive

5:31

call and that spiritual call since

5:34

all life is a journey , we want to participate

5:36

and facilitate that by doing

5:38

that journey where we can achieve some

5:40

type of tangible goal that

5:43

is actually preparing us for the ultimate goal

5:45

. So I think it's a reflection of life

5:47

. It's a little archetype of what , the bigger

5:49

picture of what everyone is actually going through

5:51

.

5:51

That makes sense . Yeah there's this hole . Yeah

5:54

, I mean there's a hole in our hearts , right , and we're

5:56

looking and some people never

5:58

find the answer to that hole . And we know

6:00

the answer to that hole , but there's still this

6:02

desire . For I love how you mentioned the tangible

6:05

nature , that you know we are

6:07

made body and soul and so there

6:09

is this kind of need for that tangible

6:11

grasping to fill that

6:13

hole .

6:14

And to fulfill that ? Yeah , because we're obviously always

6:16

moving . I mean time continues to move . We're

6:19

always moving through life and doing all sorts of

6:21

things . So to have a sort of a concentrated

6:23

pilgrimage is a way

6:25

. There's no doubt that it is a preparation

6:27

for eventually anticipating

6:30

that final completion . You

6:32

know , certainly Christian pilgrimage is very

6:34

, very much that way .

6:36

Yes , and when we look at Christian

6:38

pilgrimage , I think one city really stands

6:40

out . We've talked about Holy Land in a previous

6:42

episode , but I

6:45

know it's a big question . But

6:47

I think the question that sits out

6:49

here about is why Rome ? I

6:52

remember I went to my first pilgrimage

6:54

that I planned for a diocese was

6:56

to go to Rome and I remember somebody saying to me well , why

6:59

Rome ? And I was like , oh , that's

7:01

a huge question to answer , but

7:03

I think the same thing you know

7:05

, you decided to start the Christendom

7:07

Rome program . So you know , here you

7:09

are the president of a fantastic

7:11

liberal arts college in Virginia , but

7:14

you knew , okay , study abroad needs

7:16

to be part of that liberal arts education . And

7:18

you chose Rome . And I think somebody could ask

7:20

you why ? Why Rome

7:22

of all places ? Why ?

7:23

Rome ? Sure , that's a great question . Pane

7:26

, pasta , pomodoro the

7:30

best pasta in the world , the best fresh

7:32

tomatoes it's a great bread , okay , no

7:35

, but obviously . Obviously , for

7:38

me , I think it's because when

7:40

I first went to Rome , I was deeply

7:42

moved by what I found there , and

7:45

before I went into theology , I

7:47

was a history major , so I had a deep love of history

7:49

and the thing , the old expression

7:51

, all roads lead to Rome . There

7:54

is a universality about

7:56

Rome that I think you just

7:58

can't find in other , in

8:01

other countries , in the exclusive way in which you

8:03

can find it at Rome . Every people

8:05

on the face of the earth have left their footprint

8:08

on Rome , even in

8:10

terms of the different national churches . There's

8:12

the church of the French , the church of the Germans , the

8:14

church of the Japanese , the Chinese have

8:17

a church , the Filipinos have a church , different

8:20

churches from Africa , Belgium , everybody's

8:22

part of that , and so there

8:25

is this incredible universality

8:27

that you find there and it keeps drawing

8:29

people there . Also , virtually

8:32

every level of history , from the megalithic

8:34

period all the way down to the time of the Roman

8:36

Republic and

8:39

, of course , the Roman Empire as well . But

8:42

Rome , since she inherited

8:44

in a very real sense the glory

8:47

of Jerusalem , because they got the Christian

8:49

faith but also the glory of the Greek

8:51

achievement . So many of those things

8:53

have such a deep universal

8:55

appeal across all cultures

8:58

Because the Greeks , with their

9:00

knowledge of philosophy , believed that the mind can

9:02

know objective reality . The

9:04

Romans took that and built upon it in their

9:06

sense of the common good , a

9:09

communal ethic , the concern for justice

9:11

and building a just social aura . Although they failed

9:13

frequently but they had us like people like Cicero

9:15

there was a strong sense of those type

9:17

of things . Rome represents

9:19

a universal value

9:21

. And when you

9:23

add to that the

9:25

Christian faith and the fact that

9:27

Peter and Paul ended

9:30

up there and that that was clearly part

9:33

of a providential design , because

9:36

Christianity is truly a

9:38

universal religion Not

9:40

all religions are universal . Christianity

9:42

was meant to reach out to all men at all

9:44

times and all places , until the consummation

9:47

of the world . But even in

9:49

Christian revelation in the New Testament , you

9:51

find even there that

9:53

there's already this movement from Rome . If you take

9:55

Luke , who was a great historian , great

9:57

writer wrote beautiful Greek etc . But

10:00

even in his gospel you see there's a movement from

10:02

Galilee to Jerusalem and then

10:04

, as soon as he gets into his sequel acts , it

10:06

is very clear if you read attentively

10:08

in numerous passages , all these

10:10

things . It's a movement from Jerusalem

10:12

to Rome , and even

10:14

where our Lord stood by St Paul one night

10:16

and said you have borne witness to me in

10:19

Jerusalem , you must bear

10:21

witness to me in Rome and you must , and

10:23

it's the imperative . So God clearly

10:25

wanted Paul there and he certainly

10:28

wanted Peter there , because Peter went there , we believe

10:30

, traditionally around the year 42 . So

10:32

it was part of the providential design . Rome

10:34

has a special role in terms

10:36

of history , culture , but now in terms

10:38

of religion as well , and it's

10:41

sort of interesting , I forget . I remember reading somewhere that

10:43

, yeah , rome was founded on a wolf , you

10:45

know , romulus , and Remus was founded

10:47

on a shepherd , peter

10:49

came , you know . And

10:52

so in a certain sense , rome really became

10:54

Christianized , deeply Christianized

10:57

, and so I always look at Rome as sort of the

10:59

center of the material universe . And

11:01

whenever you go to St Peter's , you know , you

11:03

just see people from all over the world

11:06

and it's

11:08

a beautiful thing to attend , like a papal mass

11:10

in Latin , you know , and everyone's there

11:12

. And then it's almost like it always

11:14

gives me chills whenever we come to the Our Father

11:17

everyone's starting to know ,

11:20

but again , it's like the miracle of Pentecost

11:22

Everyone's praying to God

11:25

in a common tongue and it's a beautiful

11:27

thing and Rome is able to do that and

11:29

the church does that , but it does it in a very

11:31

special way in that city , marked

11:34

by providence in terms of

11:36

history and also by the establishment of the

11:38

Catholic Church in that city as well . And

11:40

so I know when I went there and studied

11:42

there , it had my first visit , had a great impact

11:45

on me when I studied and lived there . It

11:47

had a profound impact on me and I saw

11:49

the power of the , of a Catholic culture

11:51

that you can find de-faith

11:53

, of course , the Holy Father being there . And

11:56

I said what a great way to crown off

11:58

your studies and your liberal

12:00

arts is to study at the heart of the church

12:03

, and that's so important . And most

12:05

of the Europeans got that sense too , because you

12:07

had , at the end of your education , you had the Grand Tour

12:09

. Well , any Grand Tour always absolutely

12:12

had to include Rome as sort of a culmination

12:14

, and a lot of times , even people who

12:17

had an anti-Catholic bias were sort of zapped

12:19

by the Baroque you know that they experienced

12:22

there and the power . Now there's the

12:24

cynical people who say , yeah , rome's seeing faith lost

12:26

, but I don't think that's generally the case

12:28

. People , when they normally go and experience that there

12:31

is so much beauty to be found in Rome

12:33

. Everywhere you go you go to some

12:35

hill in Rome , you'll find a beautiful church and in that church

12:37

will be beautiful art which breathes

12:40

and speaks of the transcendent . And

12:42

I think there's over 278 churches

12:44

in the old city itself . So

12:46

literally , just imagine the Blessed

12:49

Sacrament . Everywhere you go and

12:51

turning on a street corner , there'll be a Madonna

12:54

. You know an image of the Madonna . So everywhere

12:56

you go , you're reminded of what is

12:58

really ultimately important for us , and

13:00

that's our supernatural faith . And so

13:02

if you're looking and you have eyes , you'll

13:05

find it in Rome . All right , it doesn't

13:07

have to be the sort of Agnostic thing . What was that guy wrote that

13:09

book about ? You know we saw Angel

13:11

in the Architect . You remember there was

13:13

that book about Rome , but it was the

13:15

Da Vinci Code . Dan Brown yeah

13:17

, so people go oh , let's do the Da Vinci Code . Well

13:19

, that's ridiculous . Why do

13:21

something that's sort of silly when you can actually go

13:24

and discover the ultimate reality

13:26

? That's part that helps you reach your final

13:28

destination in life .

13:31

Yeah , there's so many converting powers in

13:33

Rome . I mean , whether it's the beauty

13:35

that's everywhere , whether it's the sanctity

13:37

of the saints that are everywhere , whether

13:39

it's the historicity and the universality

13:41

, I feel like , if you go even

13:44

on pilgrimage in doubt , right like you speak

13:46

, like Rome has something

13:48

to remind you that the church is bigger than you

13:51

, older than you , more beautiful than you

13:53

, you know , and that there's this like converting power

13:55

there .

13:56

I agree . Whatever you're chance , yeah , whenever

13:58

someone takes up a pilgrimage , there's

14:00

normally a great grace for that

14:02

. So always ask people when

14:04

they go to think what is it that

14:06

you think God is going to be open to what God

14:09

may be saying to you on this trip and you'll find

14:11

somewhere there's going to be something very dramatic that's

14:13

going to happen . You know , on that

14:15

particular pilgrimage and I

14:18

always love that movie Return to Me and

14:21

there's a great line that said go to Rome , God

14:23

, I'll hear you better in Rome . I know that's totally

14:25

true , but it's true . I think it's because

14:27

there are so many sacramentals

14:30

all throughout the city and all knowledge comes through

14:32

the senses , and so the beauty

14:34

is really found there . But even in terms

14:36

of the way the faith has

14:38

affected culture , for example

14:41

, where the church is considered an expert in humanity

14:43

, the idea that you could be sitting in a piazza

14:46

having a wonderful meal with a splashing

14:48

fountain , you know , just surrounded by that

14:50

type of beauty , and even the beauty of a culin

14:52

, of culinary beauty and things like that , where there's

14:54

a real passion for that , it all

14:57

adds to the sense of the

14:59

dignity of human life and that God

15:01

ultimately does want us to be happy

15:03

. You know , not in a fake sense , but in the sense

15:05

that he desires our happiness and there

15:08

are great goods along the way . I

15:10

mean , you know , heaven is our ultimate home

15:12

, but he's given us some beautiful hotels

15:15

and hostels along the way , and Rome

15:17

is one of those great , magnificent things where

15:19

you can just be really struck by beauty

15:21

and struck by the truth that is communicated

15:24

, because ideally , the true , the

15:26

good and the beautiful are always interlinked

15:29

, and in Rome I think you find that in steroids

15:31

.

15:31

Yes .

15:32

Paris is good too , but I mean , there's

15:34

nothing like Rome . Even the French had to

15:36

have their church in Rome you know , that's

15:38

right .

15:38

Which is a beautiful church .

15:40

I said , gorgeous Beatiful art, very , very

15:42

Roman .

15:42

Yeah , well , let's tap into the

15:44

history , the history teacher and

15:47

historian in you , and I want

15:49

to ask do we have proof that

15:51

Peter was in Rome ? Because I think a lot of , maybe

15:53

some of our Protestant brothers and sisters or

15:55

skeptics might say oh , that's just a

15:58

nice Catholic story and you had to pick

16:00

Rome because the Holy Land was dangerous

16:02

or something . Why you know ? Do we have

16:04

proof that Peter goes to Rome ?

16:06

Well , of course it is a nice Catholic story , but

16:08

makes it really nice is the fact that it's true

16:10

. There is so

16:12

much evidence I mean not only

16:15

in terms of scripture where

16:17

Paul makes a reference like I don't want to build on

16:19

another man's foundation , that's why he hasn't gone to Rome

16:21

and he praises the

16:23

Roman church in his letter to the Romans

16:25

is it's famous spread all throughout the

16:28

world . Well , what made Rome thrive

16:30

If not the fact that the Prince of the apostles

16:32

had actually gone there ? And we know , at Pentecost

16:35

we're told that there were visitors , even

16:37

from Rome who were baptized by Peter

16:39

. And of course , as a good shepherd , he's going to be

16:41

following up on that . But there are

16:43

numerous accounts of Peter's presence in

16:45

Rome found in the writings of Eusebius

16:48

Irenaeus , many of the early

16:50

church fathers , even

16:52

Ignatius of Antioch was martyred around the

16:54

year 107 . When he's writing his letter

16:57

to the Romans he says I give no orders

16:59

to you . I'm just a man enslaved

17:01

, going off to be executed , but I don't give you orders , like

17:03

Peter and Paul . So it was a word

17:05

. Is that Peter and Paul were there and

17:07

then a clear sense that in

17:09

that first persecution the tradition always says that he was

17:12

martyred under Nero . Eusebius mentions

17:14

that and countless other testimonies from

17:16

early fathers of the church , and the testimony

17:18

is unanimous . It's really irrefutable

17:21

. So as a historian you would look at them

17:23

say this is overwhelming evidence

17:25

of Peter's presence in Rome . Now , when

17:27

he first went there , the exact date of his death

17:29

was it intermittent , I mean he obviously

17:31

went back to Jerusalem for some time . But

17:34

the fact that he died there constitutes

17:36

the historical fact that

17:38

he laid the foundation of the church

17:41

there and the successors

17:43

to Peter are found in that

17:45

city . And of

17:47

course there is no other city anywhere that claimed

17:49

to be successor of Peter except

17:51

Rome . But we know even

17:53

by the by the around 150

17:56

, there was already a spot marking

17:58

his grave and people were flocking there

18:00

and there was a testimony that if

18:02

you go out to Ostia or if you happen to be at the Vatican

18:05

, you can see the tropeon , the trophies

18:07

, the funeral monuments of those who founded

18:09

this church , and that's Peter and Paul , and as

18:11

a historian that's very , very early . So Peter

18:14

, we understand now , would have been crucified upside

18:17

down Tertullian tells us about that and

18:19

was immediately thrown into an earthen grave

18:21

just outside this , the ancient

18:23

circus where now the Vatican would be in St

18:25

Peter's would be , and

18:27

there was a marking there and

18:29

that was preserved down through the centuries

18:31

. Then , eventually , when Constantine stopped

18:34

the persecution , he wanted to do something to

18:36

glorify the Christian God

18:38

who had given him the great victory at Ponte Milvio

18:40

, and so he decided to build

18:42

a church and he picked a very

18:45

difficult site . It

18:48

was not an easy place . Over where the Vatican it was

18:50

outside the city of Rome . There was

18:52

a necropolis there , a city of the dead , where

18:54

many of the wealthy Romans were still burying

18:56

their dead , and , as Pontifix

18:58

Maximus , only the emperor could

19:01

suppress a functioning necropolis

19:04

, but he filled it up with dirt

19:06

and then he had to shave all

19:08

and bring all this other dirt from the hill because

19:11

there was a fixed spot right there

19:13

that could not be moved . And what would make

19:15

them do something that was so difficult and so challenging

19:17

? It was the actual burial

19:19

spot where Peter was . Now

19:22

we can talk a lot about this , but over the years

19:24

that spot had been

19:26

venerated . But it appears that at

19:28

the time of Constantine the

19:31

grave was actually found , the grave

19:33

where the , where the marking was . They

19:35

dug up the bones and they hid them so they

19:37

wouldn't be stolen , and probably also because it

19:40

was a damp place that they wouldn't deteriorate

19:42

further , and they sealed them in a wall

19:44

right next to where

19:46

the open grave was . And it was a Roman

19:50

archaeologist , I think a name , maria Guarducci

19:52

, who actually went and traced

19:55

and found these bones in this receptacle

19:57

and they did sort of

19:59

an anthropological study of those bones

20:01

found out that it was . It was of a man

20:03

who was in his 60s or , you

20:06

know , early 70s of robust constitution

20:08

, and they still

20:10

had the soil clinging to the soil

20:13

that matched the soil right where Peter's grave

20:15

. Peter's grave was found empty and it was also

20:17

wrapped a sort of purple and gold thread , and you can

20:19

read her book , maria Guarducci , and there's several other

20:21

great books that have talked about the tomb of

20:23

Peter , and then Paul the sixth . Finally I think it

20:25

was in 1967 made

20:27

the proclamation that we have found the

20:30

bones , and so the building

20:32

of the actual Basilica , the actual

20:34

location of where the altar was , everything

20:37

confirms that unanimous tradition

20:39

Going all the way back to the first

20:41

century , that this is the spot where the

20:43

Prince of the Apostles was actually buried

20:45

. So , yeah , we can have absolute faith

20:48

that this is where Peter was actually

20:50

buried , and so it's not just

20:52

a pious myth , refabrication , it is a

20:54

historical fact . So when you see that

20:56

great dome of St Peter , the great dome of Michaelangelo ,

20:58

realize that the man who spoke directly

21:01

with our Lord and was

21:03

the first one to proclaim you are the Christ , the Son

21:05

of the Living God , he was buried

21:07

right there and he is the rock

21:09

and he is the key bearer and he continues

21:11

to draw people down through the centuries , that very

21:14

sacred spot . It's a great moment

21:16

in the life of any Catholic or any Christian to be

21:18

able to go and be able to pray

21:20

at the tomb of the Prince of the Apostles .

21:23

And I think one of the most moving things In

21:26

Rome is that scavi tour which

21:28

very few people get to do , but you actually go

21:30

through these excavations . It's like the . It's

21:32

like a great detective novel , where they're

21:34

excavating under st Peter's Square like during

21:36

World War two , keeping it secret from the Nazis

21:39

, and they're excavating . Oh yeah and they

21:41

come across this tomb and to

21:43

to be in that small little room Under

21:46

st Peter's and see the box that holds Peter's

21:48

bones . There's nothing like it . Yes , it's a great experience

21:50

.

21:51

Yeah , I mean literally . Can you really walk back

21:53

in time ? Well , down there you can . You go back

21:56

to a first century street and

21:58

you see these pagan mausoleums and a couple

22:00

of Christians . Then , finally , you come to the spot , you

22:02

see the actual shrine that was

22:04

there at Constantine time , which he saw and help

22:06

them identify the grave and everything . And

22:09

then you actually have of that , one little box I

22:11

think the United States government donated the plastic boxes

22:13

to preserve all of the pieces of that skeleton

22:16

and you get to see that and , if you're

22:18

really lucky , you can actually have mass

22:20

down there , right at the actual right behind

22:22

the tomb , which is a beautiful , beautiful thing to see

22:24

, but it's important because it reminds

22:26

us all , whether you're Catholic or not , that

22:29

our Christian faith . Our Catholic

22:31

faith is based on history

22:33

. It is a historical faith real people

22:35

, real events , things that actually

22:38

took place . This is not some made-up

22:40

myth like Zoroastrianism or something

22:42

like that . You know I'm saying this is a religion

22:44

that is grounded , just like Judaism , in

22:47

history . God-specific revelation

22:49

is intervention in time and in history

22:51

and that's why it is a satisfying both faith

22:54

and Reason and that's

22:56

something that's so important , I think , why it's great to

22:58

be able to go and study there or a go

23:00

on pilgrimage there definitely .

23:02

Yeah , I had

23:04

a friend that one time gave a tour to a non-Catholic

23:06

. He was a Protestant filmmaker and

23:09

and my friend was really excited to take him to

23:11

these places and to show that , show him these

23:13

tombs of the saints , the tombs of Peter and Paul , philip

23:15

and James and Bartholomew , yeah , and

23:17

and he was just kind of like , oh well , they're

23:19

dead bodies . Like why am I going to these

23:22

, these tombs of these dead bodies , when I

23:24

can live , you know , the church

23:26

here on earth with my saints and you know

23:28

, and I think it kind of it's

23:31

kind of a downer when you're Catholic and you're excited

23:33

to show somebody the tombs of the Apostles . But

23:35

I think there's a Catholic response

23:37

like what would you say to that ? Like why do we make

23:39

pilgrimages to quote dead saints

23:41

bodies ?

23:42

Yeah , yeah , well , I'm happy he's praying

23:44

to the saints and invoking them even back at home . That's

23:46

a good , that's a great thing too , but no

23:48

, but it's an act of devotion . You

23:51

know , pilgrimages are not really

23:53

. You know , vacations , you

23:55

know , and so , like I always , I'll always share

23:57

, you know , the difference between a pilgrimage and

23:59

going on vacation , and on a pilgrimage, you're not allowed

24:01

to complain Because

24:05

it's meant to be difficult . But the idea of going

24:07

and being reminded , I think

24:09

having the relics First

24:11

of all , it is a reminder of the concrete

24:14

reality again , of the . These are

24:16

real people and a lot of times

24:18

You say oh The saints are up in heaven , but when

24:20

you see the severed arm of st

24:22

Jude , for example , you realize , oh

24:25

my gosh , that arm baptized

24:27

people . You see the arm if

24:29

you go to the J Zoo and you see Francis

24:31

Xavier's arm and they used to have a plaque up there . They

24:33

taken it down . I wish they put it back up . The arm that

24:35

baptized millions . It reminds

24:37

you of the saint , the concrete reality of

24:39

who they are . Plus the cult of

24:41

relics is something that goes back to Biblical

24:44

times . You know

24:46

, they used to say that saint Paul would

24:48

heal , peter's shadow would heal Just

24:50

touching the hem of our Lord's garment was all that

24:52

we needed for the woman to be healed of the flow of blood . And

24:55

then you also had they said , because , st Paul's

24:57

holiness , even Hankerchiefs

24:59

that touch Paul , they would take and lay them on the sick

25:02

and they would be healed . So

25:04

I mean , if we approach them , with faith

25:06

in the sense that the saints

25:08

now are at one

25:10

with our Lord in heaven . And so

25:12

through our active devotion , piety , where

25:14

we stop , recall the st Pray

25:17

and invoke the aid , the fact

25:19

that you've given something , you've sacrificed to

25:21

come , and you're expressing your faith , making

25:23

an act of faith most pleasing to our Lord

25:25

but also pleasing to his friend , whether

25:27

it's Matthew or Bartholomew or whoever it might

25:29

be . It's all part of the communion of

25:31

saints . But you also get a sense that we're not

25:33

. You know death doesn't separate us . You

25:36

know , like we say , that every funeral for

25:38

your faithful one's life has changed , not

25:40

ended . And so we realize that the

25:42

church triumphant is

25:44

Not something sort of pie

25:47

, the sky fantasy , it's real . And

25:49

so we're living our life right now and

25:51

every one of us are called to be a saints , and so going

25:53

on a pilgrimage is a way , deepening your faith deepen

25:56

your holiness , with the hope that one day you will enter

25:58

, become part of the church , not just the church

26:00

suffering or the church militant

26:02

, but you'll be part of that glorious

26:05

, triumphant church , just like whatever saint

26:07

you happen to be venerating . And the fact that

26:09

they're also saints . It's

26:11

a great thing to realize that sanctity is

26:13

possible , grace

26:15

where all of us every day are swimming in a sea of

26:17

grace . If we would only tune our

26:19

receiver to the right frequency , you would see that

26:22

we are constantly receiving

26:24

graces from our Lord . And I think

26:26

a pilgrimage can be a heightened time where

26:28

we're more sensitive , more looking , more open

26:31

to that kind of grace . And I think there are great

26:33

graces that are received when we open ourselves , particularly

26:35

on a pilgrimage , and especially with saints

26:37

. They did it with

26:39

the grace of God and if we cooperate with that grace

26:41

, we can be part of that as well .

26:44

Yeah , I think that's why I encourage people

26:46

. People oftentimes ask me should I go

26:48

to the Holy Land or Rome ? And I say

26:50

, yes , I think you should go to both , like

26:53

how do you choose ? But

26:55

I think in some ways Rome is

26:58

more approachable for me because I'm

27:00

a sinner and I can think

27:02

of walking in the footsteps of those other sinners

27:04

, whether it's . Peter and Paul or Francis

27:06

of Assisi or Catherine of Sienna right ? Like , whereas

27:09

the Holy Land I love the Holy Land , but

27:11

I can't . It's harder for me to walk

27:13

in the footsteps of Christ right . Yeah

27:15

, yeah , yeah , yeah you know what would you say to somebody

27:18

who says like , oh well , by going to Rome

27:20

instead of the Holy Land , you're saying Peter and the Pope

27:22

are more important than Jesus . Like we should just go to

27:24

the Holy Land and forget Rome .

27:26

Well , that's not true , because Jesus is in Rome , jesus

27:28

everywhere , and of course there

27:31

is the Covatus tradition also about

27:33

our Lord appearing to Peter in Rome

27:35

, and of course our Lord is present in the Blessed

27:37

sacrament . Of course you could say that why go anywhere ? Just

27:39

stay in your parish church and by all means

27:41

go to the Holy Land , because again

27:43

, that also helps to see

27:45

concretely that the historicity

27:47

of the incarnation You're like Dr Koeh used to

27:49

say truth exists . The incarnation

27:51

happened . But of course the beauty

27:53

is that in a lot of ways Rome is

27:55

in a certain sense the new Jerusalem , because

27:58

the church did move from Jerusalem

28:01

and of course Jerusalem remains sort of the mother

28:03

church because that's where Christ

28:06

established the church initially , but

28:08

Jerusalem , in a certain sense Rome , has

28:10

become the center of pilgrim because Christ built

28:13

his church there , placed the center

28:15

of the church there , and that's why

28:17

everyone knew , even when the Popes left for Avignon

28:19

and as great as the French wine

28:21

was and being on the Rhône River and

28:24

French cuisine and all that , everyone

28:26

knew that he had to go back to Rome

28:28

, because that was not an accident , that was part of

28:30

God's providence . Plus

28:32

, also , you do have the church

28:34

in Santa

28:37

Croce in Jerusalem , where

28:39

the whole sanctuary is packed with soil

28:41

from Jerusalem . You have the holy

28:43

stairs that were taken from what they believe was Pilate's

28:45

Praetorium , where a Lord tradition says walk

28:47

up , you can see . There's a lot of Jerusalem

28:50

stuff that you can do , and

28:52

it's just because Rome is really sort of the

28:54

head and the mother , you know , capul

28:56

de Mater , as they say at the latter in Basilica

28:59

, and so you can see so many of those

29:01

things that would be part of a pilgrimage

29:03

to the holy land as well .

29:05

Yeah , it's interesting , people weren't

29:08

making pilgrimages to Avignon even when the Pope

29:10

was there . So I think , remembering that

29:12

we don't go on vacation to see the Pope , we

29:14

go on pilgrimage to the tombs

29:17

of the apostles .

29:17

Sure .

29:18

And I think sometimes we get that skewed nowadays with

29:20

the Pope kind of being the celebrity .

29:22

Yeah .

29:22

But the importance of Rome doesn't even rest

29:24

in the Pope being there , as much as this

29:27

history in Peter .

29:28

Yeah , peter . Well , even when the bishops

29:30

go to him , even when the bishops go to visit the

29:32

Pope , it's called an adlimina visit

29:34

, and adlimin means to the

29:37

threshold . It's to the threshold of the tombs

29:39

of Peter and Paul . That's what they're going to

29:41

, and then they see the Pope , but it's always

29:43

focused on Peter and

29:45

Paul . That's what you're going for .

29:48

When did Christians start making

29:50

pilgrimages ? What is the history of Christian pilgrimage

29:52

to Rome ? Did they start Pretty much immediately ?

29:55

Oh , I would think so . Even if you go back to

29:58

St Paul , he says I must see

30:00

Rome and of course he goes there and

30:02

he goes to the pilgrimage . He wants to impart something , but he also

30:04

wants to receive something and share

30:06

what he calls our common faith . But

30:09

then , even very early on , when there

30:11

we know of people traveling to Rome when there were

30:13

disputes about Easter and things like that

30:15

, they would travel to Rome as pilgrims

30:18

to consult with the Pope , like Pope Anesthesi

30:20

, to talk about the date of Easter and

30:22

what would be the proper day , because the West had

30:24

a different practice from what was in the East , and

30:27

things like that . But even someone like Irenaeus

30:29

, who came out of the Eastern Church , came to Rome

30:31

and lived in Rome and dwelt in Rome for

30:33

a long time , jerome ends up in Rome . So

30:37

I think pilgrimage to Rome is as old

30:39

as St

30:42

Peter and St Paul gets as old as Christianity

30:44

being there . Same thing with Jerusalem . I

30:46

mean , in a certain sense it was Jerusalem , rome

30:48

and of course Santiago also became a

30:50

huge center of pilgrimage as

30:53

well . But I think you could say second

30:55

century on , rome is a site of pilgrimage

30:58

. Who wouldn't want to go to the tomb of Peter and

31:00

Paul yeah .

31:02

And I guess we even see that with the trophy

31:04

, like the building

31:07

of the to mark

31:09

the grave . And then we know people went , they want to

31:11

be buried next to him . We know they went and lowered

31:13

their .

31:13

Many of the early popes in the first and second

31:16

century decided to be buried right next to St Peter

31:18

. We've lost a lot of their graves . Then

31:20

eventually a lot of them were put outside in the

31:22

Catacomba St Calyxdis , you know , when you get into

31:24

the second century . But yeah , everyone

31:26

desired to be there and people would flock to

31:28

that and that's just a natural instinct

31:30

. Of course , peter has the keys to the kingdom

31:33

of heaven . So if you want to get into heaven , go talk

31:35

to the key bearer , talk to the vicar , you

31:37

know , talk to the vicar , you know Christ vicar . And

31:40

so , yeah , that was a big part of that . Also , belief

31:42

in the resurrection , the dignity of the human body

31:44

, that imagine if you were to pop

31:46

up and Peter's right next to you . That would be a

31:48

good move .

31:52

Well , you have lived in Rome , you

31:54

have led pilgrimages to Rome , you visited

31:56

Rome countless times . What's one thing

31:59

you always try to do or place you always

32:01

try to go to , even if you only have a few days

32:03

.

32:04

Oh well , that's easy . We've been talking about it St

32:06

Peter's . I will never go

32:09

to Rome and not go to

32:11

St Peter's Basilica and have a chance to actually

32:13

pray at the tomb . I just love St Peter's

32:15

and that's always the focus of

32:17

any trip to Rome , but I also

32:20

like getting outside the city . So

32:22

if I can ever work in a catacomb , I've

32:24

always found my life , spiritual

32:27

life , really enriched by once again going into

32:29

visiting a catacomb . I mean that , and basically

32:32

not everyone's there . A lot of martyrs are

32:34

out there , but not everyone buried in a catacomb

32:36

is a martyr . But the fact that everyone

32:38

who was buried during those first three centuries

32:41

was doing at a time where the precedent

32:43

had been sent in Roman law that if you

32:45

were a Christian at any time you could be killed

32:47

, if a local governor wanted to start

32:50

a persecution , it could be . So everyone who

32:52

died during that time would

32:55

have been a Christian when it could have meant death

32:57

. And so I think I draw great inspiration

33:00

from that . Looking of all those who went before

33:02

us , you know , marked , as they say , marked

33:04

with the sign of faith , who are now sleeping and

33:06

reflecting upon that is is a big

33:09

thing , and if I get out to the old Appian

33:11

Way . I love it because you're sort of outside the

33:13

city , but it hasn't changed that

33:15

much , even from ancient times . I mean , those

33:17

stones are still there on the Appian Way . Those

33:19

are the stones that Peter and Paul would have walked upon

33:21

when they came to the city . So , having

33:24

that kind of contact with like I call living

33:26

history , and then , plus , after a

33:28

great spiritual pilgrimage out there , there's

33:31

about three or four really awesome

33:33

restaurants out there too , where you can then

33:35

sit down and do your pastapane

33:38

, a little vino bianco , you know , and just

33:40

have a great time and celebrate the beauty

33:42

of God's creation .

33:44

I love the perspective that the

33:46

catacombs that the Via Appia

33:49

, that Rome gives us , that you

33:51

know , so often we become , become so

33:53

consumed with our own problems , the

33:55

church's problems , 2024

33:57

, and just the perspective

33:59

of we've been here before , here

34:02

again , the Lord's here , the Lord's seen

34:04

it , the church has seen a lot and it just gives you

34:06

such a perspective

34:09

of I'm not the center of the universe

34:11

and my problems aren't the center of the universe and the church's

34:13

problems aren't the center of the universe .

34:14

Absolutely . I mean , look , we've had

34:16

we've had antipopes . We've

34:19

had a time where there were three guys claiming to

34:21

be pope and even the saints were divided on

34:23

that . So it you know , not not

34:25

to minimize some of the challenges and difficulties

34:27

, but I mean , obviously our Lord

34:30

has been with this church through all of these difficulties

34:32

and so we have to realize that fundamentally

34:35

, he's going to be with this church and there's going

34:37

to be difficulties , there's going to be challenges

34:39

, but you stay with the church

34:42

and if you stay with the church and

34:44

stay and maintain your Catholic

34:46

faith , you're going to work through all of these things and it does just really

34:48

give you a bigger perspective . I mean , we have

34:50

challenges here in the United States living our Catholic

34:52

faith and there is there's persecution

34:55

on pro-life and on issues and things like that

34:57

, but right now nobody's killing

34:59

us . You know , we're not in danger of

35:01

being shot like they were recently

35:04

, I think . Where is it ? I guess

35:06

there was a group of women in what used

35:08

to be well , it was the in

35:10

Asia where they broke and 15 women were just shot

35:12

at Sunday Mass . You look at what's going

35:14

on Nigeria literally hundreds

35:16

of people being killed in

35:18

Nigeria , and hopefully they'll

35:20

recognize that there is a threat to religious liberty

35:22

in that country . They'll declare it that way . But

35:24

we there's plenty of modern-day martyrs , where

35:26

people are being killed all the time for their faith

35:29

, and so , drawing inspiration

35:31

from that and then recognizing

35:34

that , yeah , there's plenty of martyrs

35:36

today , we need to pray for people who are being persecuted

35:39

and invoke those people that have died for

35:41

their faith , even though they might be

35:43

officially canonized by the church . But

35:45

a lot of these people have been killed odium fida

35:47

, out of hatred for the faith , just because they're Catholic

35:49

, and so we should really ask their

35:51

prayers as well .

35:53

As we close and wrap up , do you have

35:55

any recommended resources to

35:57

learn more ? Maybe somebody wants to know about the Catholic

35:59

history of Rome , or the the first days

36:02

of the church in Rome , or pilgrimage . Do you have

36:04

any recommended resources ?

36:06

Well , okay , sure , one

36:08

book that I absolutely love and I think there

36:11

was just an updated version there was a Georgina

36:13

Massone who wrote a book just called Rome

36:16

, and she is

36:18

very open and sensitive to the Christian

36:21

message , but she has a love of art

36:23

and a love of beauty and she has a great way

36:25

of making Rome come alive . Georgina

36:28

Massone , her book , rome . Fulton

36:30

Sheen did a book called this is Rome

36:32

, and that's that is a great one too

36:34

, because obviously Fulton Sheen has a gift of

36:37

eloquence and he has a great way of

36:39

communicating that . Also

36:41

a great preparation . George Weigel

36:43

wrote a great book , along with Liz Lev , called

36:45

Roman Pilgrimage , where he

36:47

uncovers the stational churches , and

36:50

when I was a student there , those are the every day

36:52

in lent, there's a special church you can go to , but

36:54

one of the best . I did that a couple times

36:56

when I was a student in Rome and that

36:59

completely unlocked so much

37:01

of early Christian history

37:03

that just was very , very moving

37:05

. That would be a great book to take

37:07

a look at , especially if you're there in Lent , but it doesn't

37:09

have to be just in Lent , but

37:11

those are all really great . There was also

37:13

an older little book by Moses Hades

37:15

. It was just called the History of Rome and

37:18

she gives you sort of like a narrative but gives

37:20

quotes from Roman historians and

37:22

it's not necessarily Christian , but she goes into Constantine

37:24

and things like that , but it talks about the

37:26

Roman Republic , about Cicero , and they

37:29

would give you a real sense of like if you're going through the Roman

37:31

form of classical antiquity . It

37:33

was it's a great little book to take with you there

37:35

, but those are just some and there's some very . There's some other really

37:37

good Pilgrimage books . There's

37:39

one I think called the

37:42

Churches of Rome , by a Jesuit I think

37:44

Tyndale , I can't remember the name , but

37:46

that's a very good book . And there's other

37:48

ones that anything that says like a Christian

37:51

guide to Rome generally , you're going

37:53

to be in good shape if you get something like that , but

37:55

those are just some off the top of my head . And if

37:57

you want Peter's tomb , there was a book by Maria Gorducci

37:59

, I think it's still available , and

38:02

there've been several other books that have based

38:04

their research on Maria Gorducci's

38:06

work on the tomb of Peter

38:09

and those would all be great reads

38:11

for you too . And of course

38:13

there's there's , you know , fictional called Quovadas

38:15

is a great book to read . I've

38:17

got the Pulitzer Prize . Sheikvitz great book

38:19

Quovadas would be a wonderful thing

38:22

to read . Irving

38:24

Stones , the Agony and the Ecstasy about

38:26

Michelangelo those

38:29

things are all great in terms of really giving you

38:31

guys love of the Renaissance . Michelangelo

38:33

was a man of deep faith . So was Bernini

38:35

. So sometimes getting a Catholic perspective

38:37

on some of these great artists who were deeply

38:39

inspired by their Catholic faith ? Bernini

38:42

, did you know ? 30-day Ignatian retreat loved

38:44

the Jesuits back then when they were doing that sort

38:46

of thing . I'll just be excited but okay , but

38:49

no , but those are things that you could take , it could

38:51

really take advantage of and I think would really be beneficial

38:54

. But then , one

38:56

of the big things is go and experience it . Don't go around

38:58

just taking pictures all the time . Drink

39:00

it in . I mean , when you first get there , allow

39:02

the beauty , the architecture

39:05

, to take it in . If any church you're going to go

39:07

in , you're also going to come out of . So

39:09

maybe go and experience and do it prayerfully

39:11

. Then , when you come out , take your time taking pictures

39:14

, but let the spirit move . You enjoy

39:17

the true , the good , the beautiful and take that all

39:19

in like when you first walk in St Peter's . Don't start taking

39:21

all sorts of pictures . Go in

39:23

and just walk and let Bernini's

39:25

colony we're supposed to be the arms of Christ let

39:28

that embrace you and pull you into the mystery

39:30

of holy mother church . And it's a

39:32

great way to go .

39:33

Absolutely well , thank you , dr Donald

39:35

, thanks for your time , and I

39:37

have to thank you for the Rome program with

39:39

Christendom College , because that's when I first got

39:42

to live in Rome and it was life-changing

39:44

. There is nothing like being able to spend

39:46

an extended amount of time . It

39:48

was also the semester that John Paul II died , so

39:50

talk about like history and just

39:53

thank you for giving so many college

39:55

students that experience . It really

39:57

is life-changing was my joy .

39:59

I'm so glad you were able to do that . Hope many may hope

40:01

there'll be many more years of that happening as well .

40:04

I hope so . So well , god

40:06

bless . Thank you listeners . Thanks for tuning in

40:08

and join us as we continue to

40:10

walk through this idea of the history of pilgrimage

40:12

, the importance of pilgrimage and really the

40:14

beauty of the Christian life through

40:17

pilgrimage . God bless .