0:01

Welcome to In Via , the podcast

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where we're navigating the pilgrimage of life

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. We are all in via

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on the way and we are learning a

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lot as we go . I'm your host

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, Joan Watson . Join me as we listen

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to stories , discover travel tips

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and learn more about our Catholic faith . Along

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the way , we'll see that if God seeks to

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meet us in Jerusalem , Rome or Santiago

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, he also wants to encounter you

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right there in your car , on

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your run or in the middle of your workday

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. Welcome

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back to In Via , the podcast where

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we are navigating the pilgrimage of life

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. And right now on In

0:39

Via , we are kind of walking through a mini-series

0:42

of what the history

0:44

of pilgrimage is in Christianity , and

0:47

we've looked at the Jewish

0:49

tradition of pilgrimage to Jerusalem

0:51

, and then we've also looked at Christian

0:54

pilgrimage to the Holy Land and Christian pilgrimage

0:56

to Rome , and a lot of times when

0:58

you look at Christian pilgrimage and the history of pilgrimage

1:00

, there's three cities that are mentioned

1:02

, and that's Rome , Jerusalem and

1:05

Santiago in Spain . And

1:07

so today we are going to be looking at the

1:10

Way of St James , and

1:17

some people have heard of it . It's called the Camino and we are talking to someone

1:19

who's walked the Camino and who , I think , researched it , as

1:21

a good historian should , before you walked

1:23

it . We're talking to Kevin Banich , the

1:26

principal of Roncalli High School in Indianapolis

1:28

, Indiana . Hi , Kevin .

1:30

Hi Joan , thanks for having me . I'm excited

1:32

. Yeah , I'm a social studies teacher by trade

1:34

, so when we went , we didn't just

1:36

go for the fact

1:39

of walking the pilgrimage , it was a little bit of

1:41

a history experience as well .

1:43

I love it . I love it . I hope I

1:45

haven't already taken one of your sentences , but I

1:47

always like to start with our

1:50

guests introducing themselves to our listeners

1:52

who might not know them , and I always start with the same

1:54

question , and that's if you could only

1:56

tell people three sentences about yourself , what

1:59

would you say ?

2:02

First and foremost , I

2:04

am proudly married

2:07

to my wonderful wife , Audrey , and the

2:09

proud father of my son , James , which

2:12

obviously connects to our topic for

2:14

the day . So that's one . Second

2:16

one is I'm the principal of Roncalli

2:18

High School in my professional career , and

2:21

then , outside of my personal and professional

2:23

, I'm just an energetic , extroverted

2:26

, sports loving , history nerd

2:29

that loves Catholic education

2:31

.

2:32

I love it well , thank you . I'm really excited

2:34

for our conversation because , like you you

2:36

you said like when you went on the Camino , you

2:39

were going as a social studies teacher and

2:41

I we we share a love in history

2:43

. I had history as my undergrad and

2:46

I think travel is such a

2:48

beautiful way to give us a chance

2:50

to geek out in history , to

2:52

open our eyes , and so Camino

2:55

had to be such a great opportunity to

2:57

delve into that love for history for you .

3:00

Yeah , I mean it

3:03

connected so much of my personal

3:05

and professional life together

3:07

at the time , being a social studies teacher

3:09

, working at a Catholic school , being

3:13

with my wife . It

3:16

was it combined , all of the great things . I mean it's one

3:18

of those experiences that you can't quite

3:20

put into words .

3:22

And especially that history just .

3:24

I caught . I caught some grief when you , when you walk the

3:26

Camino , you meet a lot of pilgrims from

3:28

around the world and so you learn about them for

3:30

a week and who they are . And on one of the

3:32

days it was like the 18 mile day

3:34

of the way we did it and there were some Roman

3:37

ruins that were kind of off the path . And

3:39

so that evening when we got to town and

3:42

we're celebrating with all the other pilgrims

3:44

our day walk , everybody was like you know

3:46

, kevin the social studies teacher like what did you think of

3:48

the Roman ruins ? And I was like I'm sad

3:50

to say that I was so tired , I didn't walk

3:53

off the path to go to those Roman

3:55

ruins , I was like they were everywhere around

3:57

us . So I caught a little

3:59

bit of grief on our own pilgrimage about not

4:01

going to see the Roman ruins .

4:03

You admired them from afar .

4:06

Yeah , relief on our own pilgrimage about not going to see .

4:08

You admired them from afar . Yeah , I just kept walking . Yeah

4:10

, yeah , um , and I mean pilgrimage is such a important part

4:12

of history , of history

4:14

of so many different peoples , and so

4:16

, as kind of thinking of like the social

4:18

studies side of you , I guess , do you have

4:20

a conjecture of why pilgrimage

4:23

plays a role in throughout history

4:25

and major religions ? And I mean , sometimes

4:27

we think of we're the only ones that go on pilgrimage

4:29

, but people have been going on pilgrimage for thousands of years

4:32

.

4:32

Yeah , no , I mean . Yeah , it's critical

4:35

in world history . Pilgrimages exist

4:37

across faiths , continents , and

4:40

I think it's just what an incredible opportunity

4:42

to put yourself in a different

4:45

frame of mind . I think , especially

4:47

today , you know the

4:49

world that we live in . The only way to really

4:52

put yourself in a position of

4:54

peace and sacrifice

4:56

and prayer and removing yourself

4:58

is to truly go , put yourself

5:01

in an uncomfortable situation

5:03

that disconnects

5:05

you from all the things you know , and I think , as much

5:08

as we're connected with all the technology . That

5:10

was still true . Like in

5:12

the 15th century . People were like we have so

5:14

much technology , our world is so busy . It's not

5:16

like they , it was the

5:18

busiest the world had ever been at that time , and

5:20

so people have always been looking for a way to

5:23

find some discomfort

5:25

, find some ways to push themselves

5:28

outside their limits , and I think

5:30

that's the only way you can do it is to go

5:33

kind of extreme , depending

5:35

on what that level of extreme looks like for

5:37

you .

5:38

Yeah , I love that and yeah

5:41

, I mean , I think different pilgrimages call

5:43

that out in different ways . You

5:45

know , the Camino is definitely the physical side of .

5:49

You know , you're actually physically walking

5:51

. Nowadays , a lot of times when we maybe go on pilgrimage to Rome , you're not walking to

5:53

Rome , probably You're still doing a lot of walking

5:55

, but there's a different sacrifice where

5:57

maybe there's a spiritual sacrifice or a mental

6:00

sacrifice . But when

6:02

we look at the Camino , I

6:07

think it's the best example of the way , of that way of pilgrimage , and Camino , of course , simply means

6:09

the way and it could be used to describe

6:11

any pilgrimage . But most of us , when

6:13

we talk about the Camino , are talking about this particular

6:16

way of St James in Spain , one

6:18

of the most ancient Christian pilgrimage sites

6:20

, and so I think our conversation about

6:22

this Camino has to begin

6:25

with a very big question of why

6:27

Spain ? And

6:30

that might be a huge broad question , but I think our conversation

6:32

about the Camino has to start with that why

6:35

Spain ? Kevin ?

6:37

Yeah , what a start . So I

6:39

think , before to Spain

6:41

, I think we start with St James . Like

6:43

who was St James Sounds

6:46

good , Even like St James the

6:48

Greater , which means there's a lesser which

6:50

is always like ooh , which St James .

6:52

I always get them confused .

6:55

Yeah , so , as my five-year-old

6:57

son would say , St James the Greater is better , because

7:00

that's what I always am like . You're named after St James

7:02

the Greater , not the lesser , Cause that's

7:04

what I always I'm like . You're named after St James the

7:06

greater , not the lesser . But yeah , St James the

7:09

greater , a fisherman , is one of kind of the inner

7:11

circle right Of of

7:13

the apostles . So you've got the 12

7:15

, but then you kind of got an inner ring of the three

7:18

, and so St James the

7:20

greater , probably named , maybe because

7:23

of his physical attributes , and maybe named

7:25

after a little bit of a temper

7:27

which I kind of like . He was a

7:29

sons of thunder , which

7:32

I like that . So

7:38

he's on the inner side of Christ's apostles , and so after Christ dies

7:40

, he of course sends them out to the

7:42

ends of the world and

7:45

says you know , it's now time to spread the good

7:47

news . And so St James the Greater then

7:50

went to the end of the known world , which

7:52

was the Iberian Peninsula , which the end of

7:54

the world . Then you can end the Camino

7:56

in Finisterre , which is translates

7:59

to the end of the world .

8:08

And so why Spain ? You know , there's , as we talk more in this , there's somewhere where scripture

8:10

ends and the legend begins . And so scripture tells

8:12

us apostle of Jesus

8:14

. Jesus then said go out , you

8:16

know , and spread the good news to the world . After

8:19

his death and resurrection , St James

8:21

, our history tells us , then went to the Iberian

8:23

Peninsula and then eventually returned

8:26

. He was the first

8:28

of the apostles

8:30

after Judas to die and the first

8:32

one martyred and the only one that

8:34

is mentioned in scripture

8:37

. So the rest of the apostles we find out from history

8:39

. James the greater

8:41

. We know that King Herod

8:43

at that time , in roughly

8:46

44 , has him beheaded

8:48

. We learned that in Acts of the Apostle . And

8:50

then in that moment the legend kicks over

8:52

and , as I like to joke , then we get like 10

8:55

centuries of legends and stories and traditions

8:57

where the history gets messy and

9:00

there's debate and discussion as to OK

9:03

, go back to your question , how

9:05

does Spain then come back into the picture ?

9:10

So yeah , Well , before we jump into some of those legends

9:12

because I think it's fun to talk about some of those I

9:15

think it's important for us to remember sometimes

9:17

we read Acts of the Apostles as

9:19

if it all happened within like three weeks . You

9:22

know , like we're reading Acts and we're like , oh well , then

9:24

you know Pentecost , and then they went out , and

9:26

then they had the council of Jerusalem , and then

9:28

James was killed , and then you know , and just

9:30

to realize like this all was stretched

9:32

out in a long amount of time

9:35

, and so it can be hard for us to really like

9:37

think of how did James get to Spain , but then he's the

9:39

Bishop of Jerusalem ? But to realize Acts of

9:41

the Apostles it happens over time

9:43

. Right , it takes Paul a long time to travel over

9:45

all these places , and so that's

9:48

kind of helpful , I think , for our listeners to remember

9:50

that we have James's martyrdom

9:52

in Acts , but that didn't necessarily happen

9:54

. You know , a week after Pentecost .

9:56

Right , there's no . Yeah , no

9:59

, ryanair could just get you from Jerusalem

10:01

to Madrid , like we do today , right ? This

10:03

all was over months

10:05

years .

10:07

Yes , yeah , yes

10:10

, yes . So what

10:12

are some of the stories

10:14

of Spain and kind of

10:16

some of the stories that surround the Camino , like when

10:19

? I mean , maybe this is another question but like when

10:21

did Christians start making this pilgrimage

10:23

and why ?

10:35

Yeah , so you kind of get this multi-century gap that exists in the history of St James when

10:37

you're talking specifically about the Camino . So he , he dies

10:39

, and the legend is that he , that his own disciples

10:42

that were going to kind of be his inner you

10:44

know group following him , they

10:47

took him back to the

10:49

Iberian Peninsula , northwestern

10:51

what is now Spain , because

10:54

that's where he was spreading the good news

10:56

. And so certainly

10:58

a part of the legend is , you know , that

11:01

there were angels that directed them

11:03

as to where that body should be

11:06

placed , how he got there a stone

11:08

boat is involved and

11:10

then he finally comes to his burial spot

11:12

and then we kind of like it , kind

11:14

of for a simplistic

11:16

standpoint , kind of shuts down for several centuries

11:18

, until you jump to the ninth

11:21

century , in which a shepherd has

11:24

a dream , a vision , is

11:26

led by angels to this open field

11:28

that's covered in stars

11:31

which is where we get our name , santiago

11:33

de Compostela , the field of stars

11:35

and discovers this

11:38

tomb , recognizes it

11:40

being important it

11:42

must be important , lets the bishop know

11:44

, lets the king of the Iberian Peninsula , that

11:46

empire at that time in the ninth century , know

11:48

what's going on . And then they establish

11:51

and say this is the spot

11:53

of St James . You know the between

11:55

the dreams , the visions , the angels

11:57

, the legends of St James

11:59

being brought back . This clearly must

12:02

have been an important person . This

12:04

fits within who St James was

12:07

, and so , therefore , this is

12:10

a holy spot . And so in the ninth century

12:12

, we start to as that comes about , over

12:15

time , over the next few centuries , the

12:18

word starts to spread in

12:20

the known world , especially in the Iberian Peninsula

12:22

, that this is where St James , who

12:24

was a critical , you know

12:26

, the patriarch of the patron

12:28

saint , excuse me , of Spain , people

12:31

then start to flock to . Naturally

12:33

, there's no formal thing that

12:35

exists of , it's just word of mouth

12:37

. Like St James tomb has been discovered

12:39

, we should travel there , and they're traveling

12:42

the same roads that existed

12:44

from before the Roman

12:46

Empire . I mean it kind of to

12:49

dork out about history . All of those

12:51

roads , those ways are

12:53

just been built on years and centuries

12:56

and centuries of medieval time , and

12:59

so that builds . And so , finally

13:01

, the church kind of is like well , we

13:03

kind of need like a plan for how

13:05

to like . What do we do

13:07

? How do we tell people ? People are wanting to know . Now

13:09

they're hearing it from further

13:12

stretches , now it's making its way to Rome and

13:14

people inside the city of Rome , in

13:16

Jerusalem are like we want to travel here . So

13:19

in the 12th century the Pope kind of puts together

13:21

you can call it like the first guidebook

13:23

of like here's how to walk the Camino

13:26

de Santiago . It

13:28

starts to put those writings together to say

13:30

we need to tell people like

13:33

how do you then say it's legit that I went

13:35

on pilgrimage to

13:37

? Because unfortunately

13:39

throughout history there's all kinds of people who are trying

13:41

to fraud the system and claim

13:44

an indulgence and those things exist

13:46

inside of the history . So the Pope kind

13:48

of like look , we need , this is how you

13:50

do it and this is how you make it official

13:52

that you've actually then

13:54

walked the Camino de Santiago . So you

13:57

kind of get that in the 12th century by

13:59

the Pope's writing . By

14:01

the 13th century they then built this

14:03

cathedral I think 1211 , the

14:06

cathedrals built so we've

14:09

gone from a location in a field

14:11

to a shrine

14:13

, to a small chapel , to

14:15

a church , to a massive cathedral , kind

14:17

of over time . And I think that

14:19

physical structure shows then too how the crowds

14:22

were , were

14:24

heading there and the the

14:26

church finally had to say like we needed a , we gotta

14:28

make this official , like we can't just people

14:31

running around saying like I walked the Camino de Santiago

14:33

and it's like how far did you walk ? Four miles , I don't know

14:35

if that counts , and

14:37

so that's kind of how we kind

14:40

of it's word of mouth . And then finally , the they

14:42

keep building bigger and bigger churches

14:44

and chapels and then build a massive cathedral

14:47

and the Pope's like this is legit

14:49

, we gotta we

14:57

gotta write the rule book for how you do this .

14:58

Yeah , I love that because at the same time , like when um St James's tomb was discovered and you know , you

15:00

think ninth , 10th , 11th , 12th centuries we have this , this tradition

15:03

, this spirituality of pilgrimage growing

15:05

and it might be part of your penance

15:07

, right , if you , you know , murdered somebody

15:10

, your penance might be make a pilgrimage

15:12

and then you have to show that you did it right

15:14

. You have to show like , hey , father

15:16

, I went on pilgrimage and so it's

15:18

a fascinating , I think , blend

15:21

of the spirituality , this penance . I

15:23

mean , that's where we get the

15:25

tradition of souvenirs is that

15:27

people would go on pilgrimage and then they bring something

15:30

back . Right , you'd bring something back from Rome

15:32

to say , look , I went to Rome , I prayed for you at the

15:34

tomb of the apostles , and so this

15:36

idea that , like I

15:38

love the fact that , like Santiago de Compostela

15:40

, becomes kind of very logistic

15:42

, like how are we going to show that

15:45

this person did this and isn't lying about

15:47

it ? And Compostela

15:50

has that kind of best . There's

15:52

, no , there's nothing like it to get your stamps

15:54

and to walk the way and to go

15:56

and get you know your certificate . And

15:59

it comes out of this desire to to

16:01

show that you've done it and I I love that

16:03

.

16:05

And that's what's so neat about . Well

16:07

, I mean , there's so many aspects right to walking

16:09

it , but knowing that

16:12

you know we've mentioned that there's so many different

16:14

pilgrimages that exist , but

16:16

to do one that is so like

16:19

there are rules that still exist , you must walk

16:21

100 kilometers to say that you did it . You

16:23

can't just like wake up one day , walk

16:25

into town and say I'm here I've

16:27

walked this .

16:28

Yeah .

16:29

That's so neat that we get . We

16:32

get this rulebook Right . If you're going to do it on a horseback

16:35

, if you're going to do it on bike , it's 200 kilometers

16:37

. If you're going to walk it , it's 100 kilometers . Every

16:39

day you must get X number of stamps

16:41

two stamps to prove where you started and where

16:43

you ended and , of course , for

16:46

me . I was like , I'm going to get a stamp everywhere

16:49

I go and it's ancient and you're walking

16:51

. There's so many parts of it

16:54

that are so powerful that

16:56

sometimes you feel like you're walking

16:59

in the ninth century . And

17:01

there are other times you're like walking

17:03

past a car dealership

17:05

. You feel like you know , we

17:07

walked it in 2018

17:09

. And you feel like it's 2018 . And there

17:11

are other times where you're like

17:13

, I mean , I feel like St

17:15

James could be walking the same path as I am

17:18

, because there's just random

17:20

animals walking in a field

17:22

and it's rainy and there's not a car

17:24

to be seen and there's no cell

17:27

phone service . And that's

17:29

cool too with the Camino that

17:31

I was not prepared for . Walking

17:40

it was like you you do feel like you're in some ways in the old world and some ways you're in our

17:42

current world , which is pretty powerful because it combines all of the things that we're talking

17:44

about .

17:44

So yeah , and in many other

17:47

pilgrimages , you kind of have to make that

17:49

happen , right , you have to kind of force it . I

17:51

mean , in Rome you can walk down

17:53

the Via Sacra , through the middle of the forum

17:55

, where Peter would have walked and Cleopatra would

17:57

have walked in , but you need

18:00

some imagination , right , the stones

18:02

are the same , the buildings are rubble

18:04

, and so you need to kind of put on . And in Rome

18:06

you can go underground and you can walk these ancient

18:08

, but in the Camino it's

18:11

, it's ancient and new and

18:13

it's , I mean , it's like our Catholic faith , right , it's

18:15

, it's old and new , it's , it's

18:18

beautiful . You're walking with the

18:20

saints that have walked it for hundreds

18:22

of years and that are cheering

18:24

you on . Now , you know , there are people in heaven saying

18:26

, kevin , I did this , you can do it

18:28

, just like life , you know . And so it's

18:30

so vivid in the Camino .

18:37

When we , when you , the way we walked it . I mean that's an important aspect and this is

18:39

why the church had to get involved . There is no , there's rules to say that you've

18:41

done it , but there's no correct way

18:44

officially outside of once again , you got to do

18:46

a hundred kilometers , you've got to get the stamps , you've got

18:48

to then turn that in Um when

18:50

you get to Santiago de Compostela . You've

18:53

got to do those things . But there's

18:55

so many different ways that exist . I

18:57

know I get asked a lot of time when people are like

18:59

well , where , where did you , where did

19:01

you start ? Where you ? People can

19:03

walk from France , people have walked from Fatima

19:05

, they've walked from Lourdes . I mean , technically

19:07

the Camino starts at your front door when

19:09

you leave your house . So technically for me it was

19:11

Indianapolis , indiana . Now there's

19:14

no , there's no stamp . I didn't get my past

19:16

book stamped in

19:18

Indianapolis local Chick-fil-A . They

19:20

wouldn't . They were like what are ? you doing . But

19:23

there , that's

19:25

also what's neat is , because there's

19:28

all these different paths leading to what

19:31

is to believe to be the tomb of St

19:33

James , and so there's no right

19:35

way or fast way or how you

19:38

know where do I start , what town

19:40

, what city , how do I even get to wherever

19:42

it is that you're going to start from . But

19:46

when you do the way we

19:48

walked it , which was the French way , we walked

19:50

the end , the last portion of the

19:52

French way , and when you get to the east

19:54

side of Santiago , you're in a modern day

19:56

city . You are in my previous

19:59

to that . You're in these small towns and villages

20:01

that have their , their economies are built

20:03

off of the pilgrims . Well

20:06

, you get to this major city , to get to the

20:08

old city on the west side , I

20:10

was walking around still telling everybody Buen

20:12

Camino , buen Camino . My wife was like these people

20:15

are going to work , like they're not , they're

20:17

going to their office building . Like this is

20:19

the equivalent of CVS you're walking into , like

20:21

this is , you know , you're kind

20:23

of , keep walking , go to the other side of town

20:25

. So that is . That's definitely that

20:27

. New and old is is right there together

20:30

.

20:30

Yeah , yeah , I love how

20:32

you said there's no right way . We actually

20:34

talked to somebody a few episodes ago

20:36

about her Camino and she talked about how it's your

20:38

Camino . You know , like you have to walk your Camino

20:41

and you can't compare your Camino to other people's Caminos

20:43

and , like you said , it starts when you walk out your

20:45

door . I heard that St Augustine , florida

20:47

, actually got permission to be a starting

20:50

place for the Camino . Um , like

20:52

you'd have to get on an airplane though , right , like um

20:55

, that was a little confusing , um

20:58

, but that idea that that's reflective

21:00

of our own pilgrimage in life too right . Like you

21:02

, don't judge your pilgrimage in life by

21:04

other people's pilgrimages in life . We all have our starting

21:07

points and we all have our Caminos , and I think

21:09

that's important .

21:10

I mean for us , for

21:13

me personally when we walked the Camino just the side

21:15

fun , kind of funny story my wife

21:17

and I were kind of just we were a young married

21:19

couple didn't have a kid at

21:21

the time trying to figure out like what , what

21:23

would be unique that we could do right now in our phrase

21:26

of life , and so we selected

21:28

this . And then I had a coworker

21:30

who was like I was Googling

21:32

it . And the coworker was like , hey , what are you Googling

21:35

? And I was like the Camino , like kind

21:37

of like don't , why are you looking over my shoulder ? And he was

21:39

like , can I go ? Like are you going to do this ? And

21:42

I was like I mean , it's a free country

21:44

. You like you can do it whenever you want . And he was

21:46

like , but can I go with you guys ? And I was like

21:48

I mean , our romantic European backpacking

21:50

trip is now going to pick up a

21:52

random coworker . And then

21:55

he was like , well , that would be weird to kind of be

21:57

there by myself . So I thought

21:59

he'd ask his wife . And no , he asked

22:01

another coworker . And so

22:03

my Camino he was my

22:06

wife and I on this romantic European

22:08

you know spiritual thing

22:11

was now turned into me and my two coworkers

22:14

who were formerly my wife and I's teachers

22:16

. And then my parents found out

22:18

about it and they were like , hey , if those two

22:20

guys are going , can we go ? And

22:22

then my in-laws found out about

22:24

it and were like can we go ? So I

22:27

you know , our Camino was unique . There's no

22:29

way that those eight people would have ever gotten together

22:31

my wife , my two co-workers

22:33

, my two parents

22:35

and my wife's two parents . The eight of us walking

22:38

the Camino de Santiago . That was a that was

22:40

unique and there was power in that . I think everybody

22:42

you talk to that walks the Camino

22:44

there's always unique twists and to their own story in their

22:46

own way . And to their own story in their

22:48

own way .

22:50

Yeah , which is life right

22:52

Some ? Of these , like the friends were , like we

22:54

never would have picked those out .

22:55

God clearly picked those out and here

22:57

we go , and so I love , here we go .

22:59

I love how reflective it is of life . Yeah

23:02

, why do you think we've

23:04

seen a resurgence in

23:06

the popularity of the Camino lately ? Because

23:08

I know people who walked it , like in

23:10

the early 2000s they were walking it alone

23:12

I mean especially Americans

23:14

. I guess there wasn't really . And now

23:17

, like they say , like it's crowded

23:19

, Like you have to get to the next albergo to

23:21

get your you know your bed for the

23:23

night , why do you think we see this resurgence

23:26

now ?

23:27

Yeah , I think you know a little bit of history

23:29

. So in the late 20th century, the European Union, the

23:57

UN kind of step in and say , look , this is a historical

23:59

and cultural site and there's

24:02

pros and cons to that . Right Like to

24:04

rise this up

24:06

to allow people to know like there's

24:08

a lot of beauty in that . But , as you mentioned , then it starts

24:10

to become like a little

24:13

bit more of the Appalachian trail kind

24:15

of thing , where people are doing it for recreational

24:17

purposes , which we met pilgrims along

24:19

the way . They ask you as a part

24:21

of your documents . They ask you are you

24:23

walking it for spiritual reasons or

24:26

are you walking it for health reasons ? For

24:28

us of a spiritual reasons , but you certainly run

24:30

into that and so I think there's beauty

24:33

in that because you're still pilgrims

24:35

along their way . As to whatever that way

24:37

is , you kind of know . But

24:39

then I do think a key

24:41

kind of turning point when you look at the census

24:44

data for the number of people walking it was

24:46

the Martin Sheen movie , the Way

24:48

. When that came out . I

24:52

mean , I know for me personally , that was when

24:54

I watched that movie . I was like this is awesome

24:56

and I can't believe I can do it . Um

24:58

, and there's been a . There's a more recent documentary

25:01

, um , called I'll Push you . It's about two

25:03

best friends , one who's in a wheelchair

25:05

, um , and he

25:08

, he said I want you to , I

25:10

want to do the Camino , and his best friend , who was

25:12

not in the wheelchair , said I'll push you . And

25:14

they , they did 500 miles of

25:16

it and it's deeply moving

25:19

and to watch

25:21

it . And so I think we've seen some secular

25:23

culture rightly

25:26

so kind of rise , this pilgrimage up from a religious standpoint , this

25:28

pilgrimage up from a religious standpoint

25:30

. I think , too , to be an optimist

25:32

in the world . I

25:40

think the more secular society has gotten , the more technology driven , the faster

25:42

we're all looking for a wait , for a break , and so , whether

25:44

it's a week , two weeks , a month , of

25:47

whatever your Camino is , I

25:49

think people are looking for that . They're

25:52

looking for peace and quiet and

25:56

to get away , to feel , to be

25:58

uncomfortable , to be challenged to do

26:00

something that I can't get if

26:02

I walk down the Monon Trail . I

26:04

mean , I would love to , but I can't put myself in that

26:06

same presence of mine . I mean , even as

26:08

we're wrapping up this season

26:11

of Lent here and about to celebrate Easter

26:13

, as much as we try to offer

26:15

sacrifice and fast , you

26:18

can't fully put yourself

26:20

in that position of sacrifice

26:22

and prayer like you can on the Camino

26:24

, and it's not that anything's better than

26:26

the other . I think that's partly

26:28

why we see these pilgrimages , see

26:31

a resurgence is because people they

26:34

want time for peace and prayer and

26:36

quiet and reflection and

26:38

to just be in the moment . You

26:41

know to stop having your head down

26:43

on a cell phone and look up at a

26:45

field or not look at the Roman ruins

26:47

that I should have gone and seen .

26:49

I think that's what we're .

26:51

I think that's why I mean I don't know if that's

26:53

probably you can't get that in a textbook or

26:55

that's just my own personal kind

26:58

of opinion of like our souls

27:00

, our hearts are desiring

27:03

that . And a

27:05

pilgrimage to medieval

27:08

Northwestern Spain offers

27:11

you an opportunity to step

27:13

way back in time and do

27:15

some soul searching and some praying and

27:18

figure out what's going on in your heart .

27:20

Yeah , I think there's this desire

27:22

to that . There's has to be something more

27:24

than this , you know , and there's a desire to connect

27:27

and even those people who may be doing it for health

27:29

reasons or the , you know , the people who don't believe

27:31

in God but are walking this , there's

27:33

this recognition that

27:35

there's something more right . There's

27:37

this search and we have

27:40

to , like what you said at the very beginning , we have to sometimes

27:42

get out of ourselves to

27:44

do that and get out of our comfort zones

27:46

to search and it seems

27:48

like , especially after COVID , just this desire

27:51

to do

27:53

something tangible in a way , and

27:55

peaceful . And yeah , so

27:57

I'm excited . I'm excited

28:00

that people are searching for that .

28:02

Yeah , and I think

28:04

everybody goes into their Camino

28:06

for their reason and

28:08

I think you leave with a different outcome than

28:10

you ever expect , because I think

28:12

in our minds we think we know

28:14

why we're walking the Camino , but then you learn what

28:16

your heart and soul is really desiring

28:19

as you're doing it , because you're putting your , you're

28:21

vulnerable . I mean , yeah , props

28:24

to my mom , who had never . She's

28:26

not a hiker , a camper , and

28:29

she's in rain gear walking

28:31

up hillsides with cows

28:34

. I mean it was , that was powerful

28:36

, that was super powerful . To see my

28:38

dad's an army guy , so it was an opportunity

28:41

for him to just be a fitness guy . I mean

28:43

, I do , I think it , we

28:46

look for that and it's so funny . We live

28:48

in a world where we keep saying like more , more , more

28:50

, more , more is better , better , better , better . But

28:53

the Camino just kind of teaches you like being

28:55

present . And my

28:58

most powerful experience of the whole thing was

29:00

literally walking on the side of a highway . It

29:06

wasn't pretty , it was raining , cars were going by and I remember being like I've never been

29:08

at more peace in my life than randomly

29:10

being on the side of a road in

29:12

Spain . And there were other powerful

29:14

experiences the cathedral , the Buta Famero

29:17

swinging , but that was the most

29:19

peaceful I've ever been . Sometimes

29:21

I even think like man , maybe I should just start

29:23

walking down I-465 to see if

29:25

I could get back that feeling

29:28

of like peace that ? I

29:30

don't think so either , but

29:32

you can't get that anywhere . You can't get it anywhere

29:34

else .

29:34

Yeah , I'm

29:36

excited , I'm going to be leading a pilgrimage

29:38

to Spain this summer and we're not going

29:41

to the Camino , we're not walking the Camino , but

29:43

we're going to Zaragoza , which is a

29:45

city in Spain where Our Lady appeared to

29:47

St James because he was getting

29:49

frustrated that he wasn't having , you

29:52

know , evangelistic success

29:55

. And she appeared to him and

29:57

encouraged him and just to kind of go

29:59

back to the roots of our faith

30:01

and to remember that , you know , the apostles

30:03

got frustrated , or you know , and just this

30:05

idea of like reuniting ourselves back

30:08

to the very beginnings , and

30:10

I love that , santiago , you

30:13

wouldn't think Spain had that connection to

30:15

the early church . I think people know

30:17

, okay , we're talking about Rome , we're talking about Jerusalem , but

30:20

it's fascinating that , no , we're also talking about Spain

30:23

and that early effort

30:25

of St James . And now we kind of honor

30:27

him by continuing to pray

30:29

at his tombs and searching for him .

30:32

So I think it's

30:34

so neat that everybody , I mean

30:37

the church , has declared that

30:39

the three main

30:41

pilgrimage sites are Jerusalem

30:44

. We're like , all right , makes sense . Rome

30:47

makes sense . And then you're

30:49

like in Santiago de Compostela and

30:51

people are like , wait , what

30:53

? I've

30:56

not been to the other two pilgrimage sites

30:58

. I would love to go to Rome , I would love to go to Jerusalem

31:00

. We might be joining you at some

31:02

point in the future , joan .

31:03

Okay , sounds good .

31:05

Yeah , it's

31:08

so neat that that is just

31:10

the place you would least expect it is

31:12

offering some of the greatest hope

31:14

and prayer in the entire world . That's awesome

31:16

.

31:16

Yeah , I love it . Go St James .

31:19

Go St .

31:19

James , do you

31:21

have any recommended resources ? I mean

31:24

, the two movies you mentioned I think are a great start

31:26

, but the last couple episodes I've

31:28

just ended by , you know , saying

31:30

like if we want more , do you have any

31:32

recommendations for reading or

31:34

anything that you found helpful ?

31:36

Yeah , I , there

31:38

is so much now because of

31:40

even to the popularity of all

31:42

of the different routes that you can

31:44

take . There's

31:46

documentaries . I mean I hate to be so simple

31:48

, but like you can just Google the Camino

31:51

now and it's endless with

31:53

with blogs and vlogs

31:55

and videos about you

31:57

. You just look at the map and say , look , I'm

31:59

thinking I want to start in Suria , or I'm thinking

32:02

I want to start , you know

32:04

, and I want to do the Portuguese way for

32:06

us . I mean , those two , two

32:08

movies and documentaries were

32:10

it . I'll push you . They also wrote

32:12

a book about it which is very powerful

32:14

. Um , the travel guide

32:17

for us . There was a travel

32:19

guide that was Saria to Santiago , that

32:21

literally explained elevation

32:23

change and what you were going to

32:25

see and some different tips

32:27

along the way , because every little town

32:29

and village has its own really

32:32

cool cafe or some story

32:34

about the pilgrimage that you would have

32:36

no idea , because you become numb

32:38

to so much history . You're like I oh

32:41

, that's just like a 12th century building that

32:43

I just , you know , ate breakfast in um

32:45

, and so you kind of get to the history of that . That was

32:47

one that I would recommend , but

32:50

I mean for me , the

32:52

way it got me interested in

32:54

the I'll push you kind of was

32:56

like this must be so powerful . And

32:59

then just being on the Internet

33:01

and just like I said , there's so

33:03

much out there , it was harder . It

33:06

was easy to say that we were going to do the Camino , it

33:08

was harder to figure out where , when

33:11

, how , what town , how are

33:13

we getting there ? Soria

33:15

, spain how do you get there ? There's

33:17

no airport right Like you can't

33:19

. So a lot of

33:21

those I think are helpful . In addition

33:24

to just learning about the history of St

33:26

James , I think it's looking for those

33:28

travel guides to just

33:30

help you dissect

33:33

the nearly endless options

33:35

that exist out there in

33:37

different ways and journeys and paths .

33:40

Good Well , thank you , kevin . Thanks

33:42

for chatting about the Camino , and

33:44

both the history of it , but then also your personal

33:47

experience . I really appreciate you taking

33:49

the time . Yeah , thanks . Thanks for your good work .

33:50

We need more pilgrimages out there for people to experience , so really appreciate you taking the time . Yeah , thanks , thanks for your good

33:52

work . We need more pilgrimages out there for

33:54

people to experience , so thanks

33:56

, joan .

33:57

Yeah , thank you , and someday I'm going

33:59

to take you to Rome and the Holy Land . So you

34:01

heard it .

34:02

Sign us up , sign us up .

34:04

Well , thanks , listeners , thanks for tuning in

34:06

as we continue kind of our walk through

34:08

the history of major

34:10

pilgrimage sites and share

34:13

this with somebody who may be considering pilgrimage

34:16

and who may want to know more . But

34:18

tune in again as we continue to talk about

34:20

our daily pilgrimages of life . God

34:22

bless .