In this episode, Carmen Murray and John Vlismas join two brave activists. One is determined to convert porn consumers to respectful observers of consensual, non-exploitative love between humans - and one who relentlessly pursued his rapist, and now promises justice for as many survivors as he can manage.

A fearless and feared presence in the world of gender politics, Cindy is the epitome of formidable. Deon is a goofy, empathetic and articulate storyteller, and we’re instantly thrilled we could bring them together.

The conversation is rapid-fire - but what emerges is the diamond-like exteriors and then sudden deep empathy and kindness. They understand that the human-animal has an almost infinite capacity for darkness - and affinity for light. Instead of polarity, they preach conscious inclusion. Authenticity and audacity are flying off the walls as the conversation hits nerves and bounces off taboos.

Music: John Bartmann | Outsiders Connect with Cindy Gallop · Connect with Deon Wiggett