0:08

From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside

0:10

Media, this is Infamous. I'm

0:13

Natalie Robamet. And I'm Vanessa

0:15

Grigoriadis. And welcome back to our show. Yes,

0:17

welcome.

0:18

So since we released our series on Kylie

0:20

Jenner over the past couple of weeks, which

0:23

you should go back and listen to now if you haven't

0:25

already, we've gotten a lot of feedback

0:27

from listeners. Yeah, and you all had a lot of questions

0:30

and a lot of thoughts. And a lot of them were actually

0:32

about another Kardashian, the original

0:34

Kardashian, Kim. And

0:36

as luck would have it, both Natalie and I

0:38

have had quite a few experiences

0:41

with Kim. So we are going to take this episode

0:43

to cover all of that.

0:44

Yeah, I can't wait. I'm actually dying

0:47

to hear from you about your personal

0:49

experience because we didn't even get a chance to get into

0:51

that. And me, you. So

0:54

Vanessa, what I really want to know is how

0:56

did you first meet Kim Kardashian?

0:59

Okay, so I met Kim Kardashian

1:01

at the Mercer Hotel and it's a place where all

1:03

the celebrities hang out. And I

1:06

met her there for a drink. I mean, it was

1:08

so strange. I remember

1:10

absolutely nothing about this encounter,

1:12

which I think is a very usual experience

1:15

of talking to Kim Kardashian because it's

1:17

so pleasant speaking to her, but like

1:20

nothing of that much import

1:22

actually gets said. She had just

1:25

had a baby and she was sort

1:27

of uncomfortable in her own skin, which

1:29

is something that came up a lot

1:31

in our conversations. I'd also just had a baby.

1:34

I know she wasn't feeling very good about the way that

1:36

she looked, but she was certainly wearing something extremely

1:39

forward-fitting and she was certainly

1:40

Kim Kardashian. And yet

1:42

nobody came up to talk,

1:45

which is fascinating. Yeah, that's very

1:48

surprising because I would expect that for

1:50

like a pre-smartphone era, this was like what, 2014,

1:52

15, something like that?

1:53

Something like that,

1:55

yeah. I mean, I'm sure pictures were taken,

1:58

but could you sell...

1:59

a picture at that point to TMZ

2:02

of Kim Kardashian talking on the

2:05

couch to some random woman?

2:07

No. You could probably sell one

2:09

of her talking to Tom Brady

2:11

or talking to somebody where they could be like,

2:14

is Kim? Because at this point she

2:16

was with Kanye, but the

2:19

story was Kanye, right? And

2:21

Kim was sort of like the sub story. So

2:23

you met her for a drink and was this just to get

2:26

to know each other? Was this

2:28

like very much on the record for

2:29

a story? This was like to get

2:32

to know each other. She had never had a cover

2:34

of Rolling Stone. And if

2:36

I remember correctly, Kanye didn't

2:38

want her to do the cover. And

2:41

so it

2:42

turned into this thing where

2:46

Kanye and Kanye's publicist

2:48

were saying, I don't know about this.

2:51

God, are they going to make fun of you? What exactly

2:53

is going to happen? And

2:56

she really wanted to do it because

2:59

her father is known as the

3:01

attorney for for OJ,

3:03

but really he was like a rock

3:06

and roll guy. He had had a very

3:08

early magazine that it

3:11

was almost like a type of billboard magazine.

3:14

And so they had grown up going to lots of concerts.

3:17

And she used to listen to like Mary J.

3:19

Blige and Earth Wind and Fire. And she was

3:21

just like into music. And he was

3:23

too. So much of Kim's

3:26

motivation is trying to make her father

3:28

who passed away too early happy and

3:30

make him proud of her in absentia.

3:34

So she really wanted to do it. So I think

3:36

there had to be this drink where it was

3:38

like, okay, talk to Vanessa directly.

3:41

And that's how I sold her

3:43

on it. I said, look, this is going to be an iconic

3:45

story. I promise you,

3:47

I will make sure that

3:49

this story is memorable and that

3:51

it tells your fucking

3:54

crazy ass ficata like Kardashians

3:58

rise to prom in the world. in the story,

4:01

like in all of its full flower. And

4:04

so she was like, okay, great. And then

4:06

we were sort of off to the races. So then

4:08

you start actually reporting it and I assume

4:10

you spent like a day with her. So tell me

4:12

about that.

4:13

Okay, so I flew to LA. I had not watched

4:16

any of Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

4:18

So then I'm, you know, on the plane watching

4:20

all of these reality

4:23

shows, just like what is happening?

4:25

It would have taken me like 30 weeks to

4:28

watch all the TV that had already come

4:31

out about them. So I'm just kind of haphazardly

4:34

like clicking on different episodes.

4:36

So I landed in LA, so I went to

4:38

an office. It was Whale Rock where

4:41

she was making God knows what,

4:43

some

4:43

sort of digital media. So

4:45

Whale Rock, I believe they're now defunct, but they

4:48

were a technology company that was

4:50

making apps for a slew

4:53

of celebrities. I mean, mostly the Kardashians,

4:55

I think. So Kim had this

4:57

like her own app where you could subscribe.

4:59

I think it was something like $2.99 a month and

5:03

you could kind of subscribe. And it was basically just

5:05

like a personal blog where Kim was posting like,

5:08

how to look cute with braids, like

5:10

five clothing ideas for date night

5:12

or whatever, as well as kind of like exclusive

5:15

pictures. It was essentially

5:17

kind of like a gated and paid subscription

5:20

model for like a personal blog. Yeah,

5:22

so I roll up to this place and you never know as

5:25

a journalist, is this like a real meeting

5:27

or are you guys just here for my benefit? But

5:30

there's like 20 people there and

5:32

she comes in and it's about like

5:35

other emojis that they could put out

5:37

that are not just like Kim crying face that

5:40

are related to her life.

5:42

And she's like, oh, this is cute. It's like a

5:44

pregnant belly or like

5:47

a fur jacket or little

5:49

things that relate to her. She's like, I don't want

5:51

a speedo that has like nothing to do with me.

5:54

And then they had emojis of like other

5:56

family members. And she was like, no, definitely

5:59

no other family members. they're all gonna want a piece

6:01

of this. You know, she talked a lot about her family,

6:03

obviously. Like, that's her primary

6:05

thing, and the way they sort of split up the pie

6:08

and the way they all watch the show

6:10

together and then decide, like, okay,

6:12

I'm all right with the way this went down on

6:15

the show. It's not like an episode comes out

6:17

and they're all, like, surprised about what they

6:19

said

6:20

or what the editors picked,

6:23

which is

6:23

potentially why the show is, like, a little boring,

6:26

you know, because I'm sure they're like, I don't want that part in

6:28

all the time. So we went there

6:31

and then we got into some gigantic SUV

6:34

and we went to this restaurant, which

6:36

I always think of as the restaurant I love the most

6:38

in Santa Monica, to Hillstone Restaurant.

6:41

Can I get the grilled artichoke? Shh.

6:44

Like a side of candy. Shh.

6:46

Can I get the veggie burger? She

6:49

was like, this is my one day to cheat.

6:52

I'm gonna eat something. I'm gonna eat like half

6:54

a veggie burger, you know, like in a few fries.

6:57

But we had a, you know, a nice conversation.

6:59

I mean, she ate so neatly and precisely

7:02

and with such good manners and, like,

7:04

you know, I just remember her sort of absentmindedly

7:07

folding and unfolding her napkin

7:10

on her lap as she

7:12

was talking. I definitely

7:14

think that there's so much more to me than that.

7:17

And I really do believe

7:20

that I am so much

7:22

smarter than I'm portrayed.

7:24

You know, we had a lovely time.

7:26

Like, that's the thing about Kim

7:28

and that's part of, I believe, how

7:31

the family has maintained power

7:33

for so long is that nobody

7:35

meets Kim Kardashian and doesn't

7:37

enjoy spending time with her. Like, she

7:40

has it, whatever

7:42

that thing is. And of course

7:44

she benefits because her public persona is

7:46

so outrageous and luch and

7:48

low culture that, you know, when you

7:51

read

7:51

somebody who's not, like, flashing

7:53

her vagina at people, you're just, like,

7:56

shocked, you know, she doesn't have to say anything.

7:59

And you're like, this is just so much more

7:59

better than I thought she would be. Right.

8:02

Right. She's like incredibly

8:04

polite. And I definitely took that away

8:07

from my experience with her as well. Do

8:09

you remember what she was wearing?

8:11

Well, I don't remember anything from the Mercer Hotel,

8:13

but I do. I have a description

8:15

of her in

8:17

the story. She comes into the meeting

8:19

precisely on time in an outfit made

8:22

up of colors found exclusively

8:24

in nature, dark green, an

8:26

ankle length dress, sand

8:28

colored lace up sandals and

8:31

a tree bark brown Celine

8:33

purse.

8:34

The effect is like a photo realistic

8:37

painting, meaning that the Kardashian

8:39

on the TV screen feels more real

8:41

than the Kardashian in the room,

8:44

which I think is very true. I think she like everything

8:47

she does to her body is for the camera.

8:49

Right. She's a jungle Aphrodite

8:52

escaped from a forest of big booty

8:54

nymphs with a mane as thick

8:57

as a horse and as black as volcanic

8:59

rock.

9:01

Her eyelashes flutter like teeny

9:03

tiny go-go dancers fans. Her

9:06

nails are small, elegant talons

9:08

painted a color that manages to be

9:10

both onyx and the bloodiest red.

9:14

But it's Kardashian's body that is the

9:16

thing, of course. And today,

9:18

as always, her clothing is so tight,

9:21

it feels transgressive, clinging

9:23

in particular to that strange, glorious

9:26

butt, a formerly taboo

9:28

body part that is now not only an inescapable

9:31

part of the American erotic,

9:33

but also our best and most welcome

9:36

distraction from climate change, income

9:38

inequality and ISIS. Just,

9:42

you know, we like to use a lot of hyperbole at

9:45

Rolling Stone like this. Everybody's

9:48

like playing Hunter Thompson at

9:50

all times. So there's

9:53

a little hyperbole for you. But look, she looked good,

9:55

you know, she looked good and the butt

9:57

is shocking.

9:59

kind of were like, is this

10:01

real? Is it not

10:03

real? Right, and we talked

10:06

about that in the show. I think it

10:08

could be real. Like, I do think

10:10

people have big butts and she might just be one

10:12

of them, you know?

10:14

I'm team not real. Okay. Anyway,

10:18

whatever. So we had this nice conversation and

10:20

then, you know, she called me after that. She

10:22

sent me when the piece came out. She sent me three

10:24

dozen white roses. I was

10:26

like, yes, Kim Kardashian. You

10:29

and I are our friends,

10:31

but, you know, I've never spoken

10:33

to her again. I

10:35

have thought a couple of times, I mean, when I wrote a book,

10:37

I thought to myself, God, should I just like ask Kim

10:40

Kardashian if she could just tweet

10:42

about this? I could sell so many books,

10:45

but then I realized like that's what everybody does.

10:47

Right. You know? So I am looking

10:50

at the picture that accompanied

10:52

your Rolling Stone cover story. It is Kim

10:55

on the cover of Rolling Stone, clearly

10:58

nautical theme. It's her bust

11:00

up. She's kind

11:01

of turned towards the camera. She's

11:03

wearing a little sailor hat. She kind of has

11:05

minimal makeup, kind of a natural

11:08

glow, lips slightly open.

11:10

She's got these big silver earrings

11:13

and then this very prominent

11:15

red, like, balcony bra,

11:18

I would say, kind of that's coming up

11:20

over her top. So the bra is very

11:22

much exposed and then she's got this blue

11:24

and white kind of, again, nautical

11:27

sailor-esque top, pulled

11:30

down off the shoulders.

11:31

But it is very much, I

11:33

don't know another way to put this, tits

11:35

on display. That's,

11:38

yes. I mean, basically, she's a sailor. She's

11:40

a sailor with a huge rack. That's like the concept

11:42

they went with. So you tell me what you think of this cover

11:44

because I could never tell if this was potentially

11:47

the worst cover I'd ever seen or if it was

11:49

really good. It's shot by Terry Richardson.

11:51

Right. You know, Terry

11:54

Richardson is a controversial,

11:57

to say the

11:59

least,

13:53

Season

14:00

two, listen and follow on

14:03

Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon

14:05

music, Stitcher, or wherever you

14:07

get your podcasts.

14:12

This is Infamous from Campside

14:14

Media.

14:15

I mean, so when did you interview them? I've actually

14:18

interviewed Kim a couple of times. So

14:21

the first time was for this July 2016

14:24

Forbes cover story that I did with her. Just

14:27

a little bit of background, Kim had this mobile

14:30

game that was a different thing to the app

14:32

that you wrote about. She had this

14:34

mobile game called Kim Kardashian Hollywood,

14:37

which I don't know if anybody remembers playing it.

14:39

I had some friends who played it avidly, but

14:41

essentially the entire premise of the game

14:44

was that you were

14:46

trying to make it as a celebrity and trying

14:49

to get more famous. And it's very interesting

14:51

because actually this game already existed

14:54

and the company that made it Glue Mobile

14:56

was seeing that there was some success with

14:59

this game, with this idea of people

15:01

trying to get famous. And they decided

15:04

we should layer a celebrity over it

15:06

to supercharge this game. And

15:09

so Kim Kardashian,

15:10

famous for being famous. That's what she's known

15:13

for, is for ascending the ranks of fame

15:15

from Z-list to A-list. They brought

15:17

her in and it was this kind of incredible

15:20

deal per my reporting. She

15:22

was getting 40% of the game's revenue.

15:26

Not of profit, like of the game's

15:29

revenue. Yeah, I'm sure they did give her

15:31

that. I mean, she made it, right? She

15:33

made it happen. Exactly. Kim

15:35

really went to work with this game. She would

15:38

send them pictures of her on

15:40

vacation. She would let them know where she was going

15:42

and what she was doing so then they could write that into the

15:44

game, for example. So she was going to Mexico.

15:47

You could also be going to Mexico

15:49

in the game. And it kind of like was

15:51

a way to live vicariously as Kim Kardashian.

15:54

So that's the backstory. So I met her

15:56

at this, it was actually at

15:58

the photo shoot for the four.

15:59

and she's there sitting in hair and makeup. She's

16:02

wearing like this little white robe. She had

16:04

her feet up on kind of a counter, and she turned

16:06

to look at me and she's like, oh my God, so nice to

16:08

meet you. She immediately got

16:10

up and gave me a hug, and

16:13

I remember being surprised by just how tiny

16:15

she was. Like, I think she is small. She

16:18

really is. And I remember looking at her hands and

16:20

just being like, oh, your hands are so small. And

16:24

so immediately she's super personable,

16:28

and she's like, how are you?

16:29

You know, so nice to meet you. You

16:32

know, I hear you're from Dubai. I

16:34

love Dubai. Clearly

16:36

her publicist had done the research

16:39

on me and given Kim the

16:41

lowdown on who I was and where I was

16:43

from. She's like, you know, I hear you're Lebanese.

16:46

One of my best friends is Lebanese. Like, blah,

16:48

blah, blah. Really connecting

16:51

with me. But did you get roses afterwards?

16:54

No, I didn't. I was like, I'm very strict. No

16:57

gift policy. Oh

16:59

my God,

16:59

you guys are so uncorruptable,

17:02

so moral. Well.

17:06

So we're on the set of this photo shoot, and this

17:08

was the era where Kanye

17:10

and Kanye's

17:12

stylists were dressing her. So everything

17:15

was very clearly preplanned

17:17

in her wardrobe, and my understanding

17:19

was that it was kind of pre-approved by Kanye.

17:22

Right. We had these photos for the inside,

17:25

and then we also had to do the photograph

17:27

that was going to be on the cover of Forbes. And

17:29

the cover of Forbes has a very set formula.

17:32

It's, you know, looking straight on,

17:34

arms crossed, looking very business-like.

17:37

And what business? Yeah. And

17:40

what she was initially wanting to wear, I believe

17:42

it was this Balenciaga straight off to

17:44

the runway, kind of silk slip

17:47

dress, almost like a 90. There

17:49

was like lace involved. Essentially

17:51

very sexy with cleavage with shoulders

17:54

showing. And

17:56

how I remember it was that, you

17:58

know, our photographer, and

18:01

the folks on set were essentially like,

18:04

this is a little too sexy for Forbes. Like,

18:07

this is a lot more skin. Usually

18:09

it's like an older

18:12

guy in a suit, you know? And

18:14

so there was some debate, can we put a blazer

18:16

over it? And then there was this

18:19

whole back and forth, like, no, with a blazer

18:21

over it, like isn't approved by Kanye.

18:24

That's not the look. I remember phone

18:26

calls back and forth and whatever, whatever. So

18:29

after that photo shoot, I got in the SUV

18:31

with her and she'd gotten changed at this

18:33

point. This was the

18:34

Yeezy era. So she's wearing this like life

18:36

of Pablo orange oversized T-shirt.

18:40

And somehow magically

18:42

we're in the parking structure, in the basement

18:45

parking structure of where we're going for our meeting. And

18:47

all of a sudden there's paparazzi there.

18:50

So we get out and she's

18:52

being photographed as we're walking in. There's some fantastic

18:55

shots of like me lingering in the background, just being

18:57

like, probably

19:00

holding my notebook being like, I'm not paparazzi,

19:02

ready? And she kind of said something to me

19:04

like, well, you know, today it's gun

19:06

violence awareness day. So I'm

19:08

wearing orange. So I need to be photographed

19:11

in orange, which is like the anti-gun

19:13

violence color. And I'm

19:15

not saying that she called the paparazzi. You

19:18

know, I don't know. I didn't see any

19:20

of that happen, but miraculously, she

19:22

was suddenly photographed wearing the color

19:24

she needed to be photographed wearing. Miraculous,

19:27

so miraculous. So the

19:29

next time we, you know, I think it

19:32

was a, maybe about a

19:34

year later, there was a Forbes summit

19:36

and Kim got booked to come and speak

19:38

on stage and be interviewed by Steve

19:41

Forbes, which really went

19:43

down as an event for the ages. And I remember hugging

19:45

her and

19:46

thinking, oh, she kind of smells

19:49

like fake tan, which

19:51

is such a particular scent. If

19:53

you know it, you know it. You know, I'm not

19:55

knocking her. She still looked amazing, but she

19:58

just literally got straight off a 13.

19:59

our flight. And then the next

20:02

month she was launching her KKW

20:04

Beauty. This was her makeup

20:06

line that was also a portion of it was

20:09

bought by Cody. So I went to

20:11

this launch that she did at the

20:13

YouTube offices in Marina Del Rey.

20:15

And a lot of time

20:17

spent in Marina Del Rey with these these

20:20

folks. Well, that's where all the you know, the shooting

20:22

the hardcore shooting for advertisers

20:24

and brands happens. So makes sense. Exactly.

20:27

So I walk into this thing and it's it's a it's

20:29

a makeup beauty event. And this was like the

20:32

peak days of YouTube beauty

20:34

influencers. Right. So it's me and a bunch

20:36

of beauty influencers like James Charles

20:39

was sitting next to me and he was wearing those black

20:41

Balenciaga sock boots that were all

20:43

the rage at the time.

20:45

I was bequeathed apparently.

20:48

Oh my god. By a friend

20:50

of mine after the Balenciaga scandal who

20:52

was she was like, I'm a public person. I can't see

20:55

wearing this. I was like, okay, I'll

20:59

take Oh my god. Well,

21:02

yeah, there was there was also Patrick Starr, who's another

21:04

fabulous makeup influencer.

21:06

Everyone was just there this full beat like

21:08

so glamorous. And at the end,

21:11

Kim was kind of standing in front of a step and repeat

21:13

taking pictures with people. And I just went up

21:15

to say

21:15

hi. And, you know, I wasn't gonna get a picture

21:17

with her. That seemed unprofessional.

21:20

And you know, of course, she she pretended

21:22

to remember me or she actually remembered me. And

21:26

yeah, that was my time with Kim.

21:28

Hi, it's me Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

21:31

On my podcast, dinners on me, I take

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21:55

come on pull up a chair and don't worry, dinner's

21:58

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22:01

Beginning around 2015, something

22:03

strange began to happen in Hollywood. A

22:06

con artist was calling film industry workers

22:08

and offering them huge jobs on big budget

22:11

movies, always in Indonesia. Hundreds

22:13

of these workers have taken the bait and flown to Jakarta,

22:16

only to find there is no movie. It's

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all a lie.

22:19

From campsite media, it's

22:21

Chameleon, the unbelievable true story

22:23

of

22:23

one of the wildest scams in history, hosted

22:26

by me, Josh Dean. To listen to the

22:28

show, just search for Chameleon, Hollywood Con

22:30

Queen, on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

22:32

your podcasts.

24:00

you you

25:00

you you

26:00

you you

27:00

you you

28:00

you you

29:00

you you

30:04

It looks like it's part of an ad that's

30:06

going to run. It must be replacing some

30:08

lines in another ad, but it's weird

30:10

because I don't know how to match the tone or anything.

30:13

All right, let me try one more

30:15

tone.

30:17

I think it's supposed to sound like mysterious,

30:19

suspenseful.

30:22

Beginning around 2015, something

30:24

strange began to happen in Hollywood.

30:27

A con artist was calling film industry workers

30:29

and offering them huge jobs on big budget

30:32

movies.

30:33

Search

30:35

for Chameleon Hollywood Con Queen on Apple

30:37

Podcasts or wherever you're listening now.

30:44

This is Infamous from CamSight Media.

30:47

But you never saw her actually shoot her show.

30:49

No. Because I saw her shoot her show

30:51

and that was extremely weird.

30:55

So one of the other things I did with Cam is I

30:57

went with her, you know, we spent like this whole day together.

30:59

So let me play you a little bit of this tape. OK,

31:01

please. We have a family

31:03

meeting every before this season of every show. as

31:07

close as possible. don't tell

31:10

us what we're doing until the night before.

31:12

You

31:21

can sort of hear her being

31:24

like who she really is. Right. She's

31:26

a mom under stress. She's got a lot of stuff to do. And this is

31:28

the way her life works. And she's just like

31:30

sort of explaining to me like I'm

31:33

going to go to this place, this place, this place and this place.

31:35

And this is how we shoot. And

31:37

essentially like she and the rest of her family just

31:39

roll around L.A. doing like there are different things

31:41

they need to do all day, like getting their pedigures or

31:43

whatever it is, taking their meetings. And

31:46

then they sort of like a group

31:48

of friends, but not really, but sort

31:51

of are like, hey, you're

31:53

over here filming our multi-million

31:56

dollar reality show. Maybe I should stop by.

31:59

If you're over there. like in this case

32:01

it was like looking for

32:03

furniture for Kylie's new house. And

32:06

everybody had gone to this place in Santa Monica,

32:08

one of those huge warehouses with tons

32:10

and tons and tons of furniture. I got so lost in

32:12

there. And basically they were sort

32:14

of like moving through the warehouse

32:17

in little packs of like two or three, like it would be

32:19

like Chris and Kylie or

32:21

Chloe and Kylie

32:24

or you know, whatever it was, they

32:26

were all there. And you know, the cameramen

32:28

are just sort of following

32:29

them down like aisles of

32:32

couches while they talk to each other. And

32:34

it was so amazing to me because you

32:37

think of them being like, we are performing.

32:40

But of course they don't have to perform

32:42

for the cameras. They just have to stand there

32:45

and have what looks like a real conversation. So

32:47

they were speaking so softly and

32:50

so subtly that I could barely

32:52

hear what they were saying, you know, because there's like this enormous

32:54

guy with a camera in front of me

32:57

most of the time. I was sort of like trailing around with my

32:59

notebook trying to like keep up, you know? Yeah,

33:01

it was weird. I mean, it's so

33:04

Truman Show, it's just something that Kim says,

33:06

like my life

33:06

is the Truman Show to a degree, like she's

33:09

right. That's what it is. I am

33:11

so interested in that idea that at like the beginning

33:13

of every season, they have a family meeting

33:15

where they go through all their schedules. But

33:17

you have to imagine that it's also kind of like a pitch

33:20

meeting or like a storyline. This

33:22

season, I'm thinking I

33:24

want to break up with Kanye. Yeah,

33:26

fascinating. I mean, and that's

33:29

something we talk about

33:30

in the episodes is essentially like

33:32

this line between what's real and what's

33:34

fake. And it's always so interesting

33:37

to me what they do address and don't address

33:39

on the show. So in this new iteration

33:42

of Keeping Up with the Kardashians, like in this

33:44

season, they don't at all address Astro World,

33:46

which was kind of the absolute huge catastrophe

33:49

that Travis Scott, like the father

33:51

of Kylie Jenner's kids was very much

33:53

involved in. But we finally are

33:56

getting some information about

33:58

Kanye a little bit. And

34:00

of course, kind of some inherent drama

34:03

between Kim and Kourtney. But

34:06

what's always so fascinating to me is that

34:08

critics aside, whether the new

34:11

iteration of their show is boring or not aside, they've

34:14

still managed to keep it going. Like there's been this sustained

34:17

interest over so many years.

34:20

And yeah, I mean, I guess I just really want to hear

34:22

from you. Like, why do you think they've been able

34:24

to kind of stick around for so long? That's

34:27

really the big question to me.

34:29

Oh my God. I mean, I don't

34:31

know, but if I could make something like this happen, we could

34:33

have a billion dollars. I

34:35

mean, I think people underestimate

34:38

the amount of pleasure

34:40

people get by experiencing

34:43

vicariously a family that

34:45

is actually functional in some ways. Like,

34:48

wow, these people talk to each other and they work together

34:50

and they see each other all

34:52

the time and they're really invested in each other's

34:54

lives and they get on each other's nerves. I mean, okay,

34:57

forget Caitlyn. She got cast out of the fold

34:59

and forget Rob. Rob is also not around. But

35:01

like, I think that people, I

35:04

think people like that. Like, that's the aspect that

35:06

I like, like, you know, having

35:08

a lot of my family being buried under

35:11

the ground right now. Like, I enjoy

35:13

watching, you know, people like

35:15

who, the sisters who love each other. Yeah. I

35:18

guess I never really thought of them as a functional

35:20

family, but I guess in a lot of... Depends

35:22

how dysfunctional your own family is. Right, right, right.

35:24

Yeah. Right,

35:27

right, right, right. But it is true.

35:29

Like, they do actually talk to each other and

35:31

are, as you said, very much involved in

35:33

each other's lives. Even if there's

35:36

also a lot of commerce and a lot of, like, extenuating

35:39

circumstances that make that so.

35:42

Yeah. I mean, they're like

35:44

a little pack of really sophisticated

35:46

communications professionals or something. Like,

35:49

you can just see them all talking to each other. You

35:51

say this and then I'll say that. And let's place this.

35:53

And, like, there must be whiteboards in each

35:55

of these houses of, like, the story arcs

35:57

and where we're going to

35:59

leak out this.

35:59

piece of information and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

36:02

I mean, I think they, I don't

36:04

know if they have, you know, work life balance,

36:06

cause we never get to see like, does

36:08

anybody actually cook in this family or,

36:11

do they clean their own rooms or

36:14

like you just know, there's this phalanx

36:17

of service workers that trails them wherever

36:19

they go, like me trailing them

36:21

in the furniture store while they're walking around trying

36:23

to pick couches. But yeah,

36:26

there's something lovable. I mean, on the other

36:28

hand, when I was reporting with Kim, I remember

36:30

we went to the Barnes and Noble cause she had just come out with

36:32

that selfie book. And it was

36:35

book of photographs of selfies

36:37

of herself. I mean, I don't know how much more narcissistic

36:40

you can get than that. It's almost like solipsism

36:43

where it's just like, there's nothing that exists outside

36:46

of the self. The self is the world, you

36:48

know? And isn't that what iPhones have

36:50

done to us all? Yes, exactly.

36:53

I mean, the truth is they started it all. I

36:56

mean, they

36:56

did start it all. Back

36:58

then that selfie book, okay, the title was Selfish.

37:01

And everybody was sort of outraged by it. And

37:04

now it's like, yes, everybody's so selfish.

37:06

Nobody could think about anything except

37:08

for themselves. Like my daughter, my tween

37:11

daughter, every time we get in the car, she

37:13

wants to look at herself in a mirror. Like

37:15

if she doesn't have her phone,

37:18

right? She wants to hear her songs

37:21

on kids' bop radio and then look at herself

37:23

in a mirror singing her song. Wow.

37:26

And I do remember when that book came out, like

37:28

it was so ridiculed, but I,

37:31

you know, now I'm like, that's kind of amazingly

37:34

camp. And like, I want to see

37:36

Kim Kardashian in a John Waters movie, you

37:38

know? I know. There's something really

37:41

fantastic about that and

37:44

just ahead of its time in a very interesting

37:47

way where I've always wondered if we're just witnessing

37:49

some big performance art piece and

37:52

the jokes really on us. Right. And

37:54

then Kim says she would be like, you know, if

37:56

you said that to her, cause I did say things like that

37:58

to her. And she was like, well, you know,

37:59

I just don't really think about that.

38:02

I pretty much just

38:04

do my life, but Kanye thinks about

38:06

things that way. Because

38:09

yeah, her creamy thighs kind of bestride

38:11

a nation, right? She's got all

38:15

this interesting stuff going on with race

38:17

and sex and women

38:19

and power and what does it mean for women

38:21

to have both leisure

38:24

and a lot of money and also be

38:26

in control? What about

38:28

the

38:29

Kardashian curse where every

38:31

man who interacts with them is

38:33

not only is there a divorce

38:36

or a breakup, but the man sort of is left

38:38

shattered on the ground and the women just

38:40

march on? But you know, I mean the things

38:43

like when I saw her at Barnes and Noble for doing

38:45

the selfie book, so she and I sat together

38:47

while she signed book after book

38:49

after book and Barnes and Noble had said

38:51

no photographs because it's just

38:54

going to take too long. We have a huge line

38:56

of people just, you know, we're trying to sell books here,

38:58

not like take

38:59

selfies with Kim. So you

39:01

had to buy a book and she signed it, but she

39:04

was like, you know what? I'm not going to deny

39:06

everybody who's come here to take a selfie

39:09

with me. Like that's the title of the book.

39:11

I'm not going to look at these 14 year old girls

39:13

who are like, please can I take a selfie and

39:16

be like, no, I'm just signing your book.

39:18

That's so like 20th century. Like

39:21

what are they supposed to do with this autograph? Like

39:23

nobody will even understand what that is. She signed her book,

39:26

but you don't have a picture of her. I don't believe that you actually

39:28

met her. But

39:30

we're sitting there and these

39:33

people like start coming on

39:35

the line and I'm like, these people look

39:37

like pretty like punk rock and

39:39

they come up to the front and they're

39:41

not fans and they're actually from

39:44

PETA and they're just like, you're disgusting.

39:47

It takes 50 animals to make a fur coat

39:50

and you put your child in that. Oh

39:52

my God. What did she say? She

39:54

just like sort of had like a rictus

39:57

grin and like trembled a little bit

39:59

and then.

39:59

and moved on with her life. And

40:02

I always thought about that because I was just

40:04

like, God, you can

40:06

live in this world of Kardashian

40:09

bubble where everybody's

40:11

just throwing money at you and saying like, hey,

40:13

could you tweet about my book? But

40:16

every once in a while something punctures

40:19

that, even if you could say like, well,

40:21

I don't know about these PETA tactics going

40:24

up to random celebrities like that

40:26

and throwing paint on them, come

40:28

on, that's one individual living

40:31

in a greater society that privilege

40:33

is wearing fur. There was

40:35

something

40:36

about the line of like, you

40:39

dress your kid in that, that

40:41

really got me where I was like, God, it's

40:44

sort of true. Who puts fur

40:46

on their child? Right, but

40:49

in some ways that's the American dream.

40:52

It is, but it's like, is it? To them.

40:55

I sort of understand, I mean, personally, I don't

40:57

wear fur, but I am fine with

40:59

other people. That's a personal choice if they

41:01

wanna wear it. But you know

41:03

what you're doing.

41:05

To do that for an outfit for

41:07

a child where the child has no

41:09

idea is just gonna like spit up on

41:12

it and could be wearing velvet, could

41:14

be wearing polyester, like kid

41:17

doesn't care. But I also think there's, I

41:19

mean, and this is what is so interesting

41:21

with the kind of her relationship

41:24

with Kanye and their children is

41:26

that's such a core part of hip

41:28

hop is stunning and showing

41:31

the ascension from where you've

41:33

come from. And the fact that you have enough money to

41:35

put your kid in a fur coat that

41:37

they can throw up on, especially when it

41:39

is a black child, just given the

41:42

history of the oppression of black people in

41:44

this country, like it's an incredible

41:47

symbol of ascension and

41:49

an amazing visual, but

41:51

that's what makes it so complicated.

41:54

Is Kim thinking about all of that? The

41:56

ascension she's thinking about, I mean,

41:59

definitely from.

41:59

conversations with her, what I really

42:02

realized is Rob Kardashian did not

42:05

leave a lot to those kids. He

42:07

didn't have a lot. He had a lot of failed businesses.

42:10

And Caitlyn Jenner was like, look, I

42:12

mean, she was an athlete

42:14

and she was famous, but she wasn't

42:17

walking down streets paved with gold

42:19

either. And so, you know, the fact

42:21

is they grew up in Beverly Hills not

42:23

as wealthy as like the Hiltons.

42:26

You know, they were sort of the odd family out

42:28

in some ways. You

42:29

know, and you could argue her mother as well,

42:32

like,

42:33

absolutely directed her life to

42:36

making as much money as possible to her. Money

42:38

means she's safe. Yeah. Means

42:41

like, I get that. She's protected

42:43

and, you know, everything will

42:45

be fine and, you know, whatever.

42:48

It's the things that money emotionally

42:50

means to lots of people are just amplified

42:52

in her. And, you know, I asked

42:55

her like, well, why do you think people are so fascinated

42:57

with you?

42:58

And she said, well, it's aspirational. Like,

43:01

look where I came from and now I live in this big house.

43:04

And I just thought to myself like,

43:07

wow, you have bought into the American dream

43:10

so thoroughly that you can't

43:12

even see that other people

43:14

might want a spiritual life or

43:17

they might want to become like an amazing

43:20

artist or a great writer.

43:21

I think it's both, you

43:24

know, their constant pursuit of money is both like

43:27

what's kept them in the public eye and what ultimately

43:29

sort of damns them. I think

43:31

that obsession with money just, I think that's

43:33

why we're so obsessed with them, because it perfectly encapsulates

43:36

like

43:38

the greatest practice.