0:00

What's. Up you guys! I'm Haley and

0:02

I'm Andrea. And. This is

0:05

inhuman. A True Crime podcast. Welcome

0:25

back Every right to eat!

0:27

This is. Going to be

0:29

part two of our episodes

0:31

on The Backpack Murderer I've

0:34

Malachite. And.

0:37

It. Who? It's a lot if

0:39

you haven't listened to part one. Go.

0:41

Listen to that because I'm not

0:43

gonna like recap or anything. We're

0:45

just gonna jump right in and

0:48

you will probably be very confused.

0:50

and even if you're not confused,

0:52

you'll be like who cares because

0:54

I don't know what this guy

0:56

did. So yeah, lots of vital

0:58

information And that first episode? Yes.

1:00

So go listen to episode Three

1:03

Hundred, Part One and with that,

1:05

let's get into part too. So

1:08

we're in November. Nineteen, Ninety Three and

1:10

seven victims have been found murdered in

1:13

the Belong Low State Forest in New

1:15

South Wales, Australia. Joanne.

1:17

Walters, Caroline Clark, Deborah Everest,

1:20

James Gibson, Simone Ish, Middle

1:22

Good Gabor, Noi Bauer, and

1:24

Anja How she'd had all

1:26

been hitch hiking and backpacking

1:28

before they disappeared between the

1:30

years of Nineteen Eighty Nine

1:32

and Ninety Ninety Two. All

1:36

seven of the victims were found

1:38

buried in various areas of the

1:40

Belong Go State Forest. They were

1:42

all found in shallow graves and

1:44

they were all found between September

1:46

Nineteen Ninety Two and November Nineteen

1:48

Ninety Three. Wow.

1:51

the manner of death varied across the

1:54

victims with some of them being similar

1:56

but they're being multiple manners of death

1:58

including blunt force

2:01

trauma being beaten, being shot,

2:03

being stabbed, and some of

2:05

the victims were strangled as

2:07

well. The task force that was put

2:09

together to look into

2:11

these murders, called Task Force Air,

2:13

believed that there was a serial

2:16

killer operating in the area. Police

2:20

put a victim profile out to the

2:22

public and tips were flooding in. There

2:24

was also a $500,000 reward

2:27

out there, so that probably helped. But

2:32

so far, nothing had really panned

2:34

out. But on November

2:38

13th, 1993, just nine days after the final

2:40

victim was discovered, a tip

2:42

would come in that changed the course of

2:45

the investigation. Now interestingly,

2:48

this tip came in in November,

2:51

but not too

2:53

much was done about it until

2:56

April of the next year. Now

2:58

to be fair, tons and tons of tips

3:01

were coming in. And it was

3:03

this tip with other things

3:06

that kind of helped put everything together. So

3:08

more had to happen. But it takes time

3:13

to substantiate these

3:15

claims. You know, you can't just run

3:17

off and investigate every single thing

3:19

that comes through there. Especially when

3:22

thousands of tips are coming in.

3:24

Yeah, I mean, no, they would

3:26

never sleep. Yeah. But

3:29

this tip was from 24 year old Paul Onions.

3:34

He contacted police in Australia about an

3:36

encounter that he had had years earlier

3:39

when backpacking in the country. And he

3:41

believed that the man that he encountered

3:43

could be the killer that they were

3:45

looking for. Interesting.

3:49

So Paul Onions is a British Navy veteran.

3:51

And in 1990, he

3:53

decided to quit his job

3:55

as an air conditioning mechanic

3:58

engineer to explore Australia. So

4:00

he left England, went to

4:02

Australia, and he initially stayed in a

4:04

hostel in Sydney, but he set

4:07

out to backpack around the country. And

4:09

his plan was to go east to

4:11

find work picking fruit because

4:13

like he quit his job. So he

4:16

probably had some savings, but he pretty much

4:18

had nothing. Yeah. And

4:21

because he was on a very limited income,

4:24

you know, savings

4:26

amount. Budget, yeah. Yeah, budget.

4:28

That's what I was looking for. On

4:32

January 25th, 1990,

4:34

Paul Onions was hitchhiking along the Hume

4:36

Highway, which if that name sounds familiar,

4:39

it's because in part one, we talked

4:41

about how Joanne and Caroline were last

4:43

seen asking for directions along that same

4:45

highway. Right. And

4:49

also to put this encounter into

4:51

perspective, like timeline wise, this was

4:53

just three weeks after Deborah and

4:55

James were killed in December 1989.

5:00

This was January 1990. And

5:02

then the next known attack that Milat

5:04

did was January 1991, a whole year

5:06

later. Wow,

5:10

that's crazy. And

5:12

he was a truck driver, correct? Yes. So

5:15

he would frequent that area. Yes.

5:19

So Paul was making his way

5:21

from Liverpool, Liverpool East towards Mildura

5:23

when a man who identified himself

5:26

as Bill picked him up. Paul

5:29

noticed that this man was buff and had

5:32

a long mustache. The

5:34

man was asking Paul a lot of

5:36

questions about his travels and his life,

5:39

but like very specific questions like, how

5:41

long have you been here? How long are you planning to

5:44

be here? What are you doing here? Does

5:46

anybody know where you're going? Like, you

5:48

know, yeah, fishing, fishing.

5:50

Yeah. Paul tried to like play

5:53

it off and be like, this is just

5:55

friendly conversation. You know, like he's driving me.

5:57

We're just talking. And

6:00

the man gave a little bit of information about

6:02

himself. He told Paul again that his name was

6:04

Bill. He said he worked on

6:06

the roads, that he was from a Yugoslavian

6:09

family, and that he was divorced and living

6:11

near Liverpool. But

6:13

about an hour into the drive things

6:16

started to get awkward. Paul

6:19

would later tell Australia 60 Minutes, quote,

6:22

He became a bit anti-racial to the immigrants

6:24

who are living in Australia. I

6:27

was so happy to get the ride and then all of

6:29

a sudden I thought, oh no, first go,

6:31

I got the nutter. Yeah,

6:35

which is just so British. Yeah, you did. Yeah,

6:37

so funny. But yeah,

6:39

so he was kind of like very

6:42

uncomfortable with the stuff that, quote

6:44

unquote, Bill was trying or was starting

6:46

to say. Right. And

6:49

eventually they made it just south of Midagong,

6:51

which is a town in the southwest highlands

6:53

of New South Wales. And

6:56

this is less than a kilometre or

6:58

half a mile away from the Balongoa

7:00

State Forest. And

7:03

this is when Bill's demeanor really started

7:05

to change. Bill,

7:08

and I'm going to say Bill, but quote

7:10

unquote, Bill, this is clearly not a

7:12

man named Bill, but he began

7:14

varying his speed and looking in

7:16

the rearview mirror often. And

7:19

then suddenly he pulled over to the side of

7:21

the road and said he was going to get

7:23

some cassette tapes from the trunk to play because

7:25

they were losing radio service. But

7:28

Paul thought this was weird because he

7:30

knew and saw that there was an

7:32

entire tray full of cassettes in the

7:34

front between the two seats. Yeah,

7:37

so he was confused and he got out of

7:39

the car as well. And Bill told him to

7:41

get back in the car in kind of a

7:43

menacing tone. And Paul was like, well,

7:45

I'm just like stretching my legs, chill out. And

7:48

Bill kind of insisted. So Paul

7:51

listened. But as

7:53

soon as they got back in the car, Bill

7:55

pulled out a gun and pointed it

7:57

at Paul's head. Oh my

7:59

God. He told Paul

8:01

that this was a robbery and he pulled

8:03

out some rope in an attempt to tie

8:06

Paul up. And Paul

8:08

hesitated and almost complied,

8:10

thinking, okay, it's just a robbery, I'll give him what

8:12

he wants and then he'll let me go. But

8:14

something in him said no, so he opened

8:17

the door and started running. Oh,

8:19

yeah. Thankfully, he

8:21

was able to get away, but

8:23

as he was fleeing, Bill was

8:25

yelling stop or else I'll shoot

8:27

and actually did fire one shot

8:29

that thankfully did not hit Paul,

8:32

but he did fire at him.

8:34

Terrifying. I can never

8:36

imagine like running and like having your

8:38

back. I'm shooting at you. Somebody like,

8:40

what do you do? Like, are you

8:42

like bobbing and weaving? Like, you

8:46

can straight ahead. Like, that is

8:48

terrifying. So scary.

8:50

And at one point, so

8:52

they're running down the whole highway. At

8:55

one point, Bill actually tackled

8:57

Paul and they were wrestling

9:00

in the middle of this busy

9:02

highway. But

9:05

Paul was able to get away once again

9:07

and he stepped in front of the next

9:09

car that drove past him. And he basically

9:12

had later said he'd rather

9:14

die being hit by a car and whatever

9:16

this man was going to do to him. Yeah.

9:19

So he stepped in front of a car

9:21

and thankfully that driver, a woman

9:23

named Joanne Berry, slowed down and Paul

9:27

kind of got into the car and she was

9:29

kind of freaked out because not only did she

9:31

have her sister in the car, but also their

9:33

five children in the car. Holy shit. So

9:37

of course she was kind of freaked out,

9:39

but Paul was saying he's got a gun,

9:42

go. So she kind of started to drive

9:44

away and then he saw the look of

9:46

terror on his face and she was

9:48

like, okay, he's fine. He clearly

9:51

is the safer one here. So

9:53

she immediately turned around, turned

9:55

the car around and started driving away

9:58

and she did get away. a

10:00

glimpse of the man that had been

10:02

chasing Paul and saw

10:04

him running back to his car carrying

10:06

something. Joanne

10:10

drove Paul to the Midagong police station, but

10:12

they were closed, so they drove to the

10:14

next town over Baurol. Baurol,

10:17

I think is how you say it. And

10:20

when they got there, Paul explained

10:22

what had just happened. He described

10:24

his attacker. He also told

10:26

police that his backpack had been left in the

10:28

van because he just like hopped out and ran.

10:30

So he told them what his backpack looked like.

10:33

He told them that inside was a camera,

10:35

some clothes, and it's Tony Walkman. And

10:39

then Joanne also corroborated this account,

10:41

the man's description from what she saw and

10:45

everything that she could recall. But

10:47

unfortunately, because they didn't have the man's license

10:50

plate or even a last name, the police

10:52

were kind of like, you know, we'll file

10:54

this report, but it's unlikely that we'll

10:56

catch this man. That's so frustrating. When

11:00

you have two witnesses, he saw the

11:02

perpetrator and they're like, sorry, like, we'll

11:04

do our best. I know. But

11:07

I mean, it kind of makes sense. It's

11:09

the middle of a highway. Like it's not like

11:11

this person lives in town. Yeah.

11:16

So thankfully, Paul was safe, but he

11:18

had zero money. So thanks

11:20

to the help of the police

11:22

and a generous civilian, he was able to make his

11:24

way back to Sydney

11:27

to replace his passport.

11:30

And once he was there, he actually continued

11:32

backpacking through Australia. He was like, I'm going

11:34

to stay here and keep doing stuff. So

11:36

I was like, okay. But

11:39

he was safe. His life continued

11:41

on, but his attacker was

11:43

never caught. And you know, he did

11:46

think about this at times, but there

11:48

wasn't much he could do about it. So he kind of

11:50

moved on. In

11:53

1993, over three years, almost four

11:55

years later, he started hearing about

11:57

these bodies being found in the Belongalo

11:59

State Forest. near where he

12:01

had been attacked, and he knew that he

12:03

had to call the police in Australia. Good.

12:08

Now, Joanne Berry, the driver who

12:10

picked Paul up, actually also called

12:12

police on November 9th to tell

12:14

them about what had happened. And

12:17

then when Paul Onions called and told police

12:20

about this, they started to

12:22

look into this further. Now,

12:25

like I said, it took some

12:27

time to get to this report.

12:29

You know, like all these tips are coming in, they're writing them

12:31

all down, and it took some time. But

12:34

by April of the next year, they

12:36

finally realized that this was a

12:38

credible lead and

12:41

could very well be the killer.

12:45

Now, investigators in the

12:47

serial killer case realized

12:50

that there had been no full investigation

12:52

into what happened to Paul after his

12:54

report. And the

12:56

only thing official that they were able to find

12:58

was what the officer who took the report wrote

13:01

in his notebook. Like they

13:03

couldn't even find this official report

13:05

file. No report, damn. That's

13:07

sags. That just means they didn't really

13:09

take him, like take them seriously. And

13:13

like even if they did take him seriously,

13:15

they just were thinking, well, nothing's going to

13:18

happen for whatever. I

13:20

mean, no one's going to get murdered. Like, yeah,

13:22

it's fine. Like these guys are never going

13:24

to do this again. He's just having a

13:27

bad day. Right. Totally. I mean,

13:29

and maybe they did file a report

13:31

and got lost. Like there's other

13:33

possibilities, too. But yeah, they

13:35

found that there wasn't much. So they

13:38

actually flew Paul Onion back out to

13:40

Australia to see if he could identify

13:42

any of the suspects through a photo

13:44

lineup. OK, that's

13:47

a good start. Yeah. Now,

13:49

remember how in part one I said that there

13:51

were 32 people who they considered

13:54

suspects. Yes, they narrowed it

13:56

down from like thousands to 32. Yeah. those

14:00

people was Ivan Milat. So

14:03

as we talked about in part one, Ivan

14:06

and his brothers were well known to

14:09

police all throughout their childhood and even

14:11

into adulthood. They

14:14

continued getting in trouble and Ivan

14:16

himself had multiple convictions for burglary

14:18

and theft. And he had

14:20

also been acquitted on a kidnapping

14:22

and rape charge in 1971, but that

14:25

was still a part of his record.

14:29

So he was on police's radar as

14:31

a potential suspect and they had

14:33

actually already been looking into him further by

14:35

the time they got to got to

14:37

Paul Onions report or tip. On

14:40

February 26 1994 police began surveillance of Ivan Milat's

14:45

home along with the homes of his

14:48

brothers. They

14:50

were able to build a timeline of the

14:52

abductions and murders and they were

14:54

looking into Milat and his

14:57

brother a couple of his brothers and

14:59

they were able to determine that

15:02

Ivan Milat himself had not worked

15:04

on any of the days that

15:06

they believed the abductions and

15:09

murders took place. Okay

15:11

not looking good for him. No. They

15:15

spoke with acquaintances of Milat who

15:17

told them about his obsession with

15:19

weapons that existed since childhood and

15:21

followed him into adulthood. They

15:25

also learned that shortly after Joanne and

15:27

Caroline's bodies were found in 1992 Milat

15:30

sold his silver Nissan patrol

15:32

that he had driven for

15:34

years. There

15:38

was also another report pointing to

15:40

Ivan Milat. A

15:43

backpacker from Australia named Mary called

15:45

the tip line to report that a

15:47

man matching Milat's description had attempted to

15:50

abduct her and a friend in Baurol

15:52

in 1977. So

15:57

Mary described her abductor as a man with

15:59

black straggly hair and they brought

16:01

her in for a photo lineup and

16:03

while she wasn't a hundred percent sure

16:06

she picked out Milat. Milat

16:10

fit the profile of the killer that

16:12

police had put together. He

16:14

was known to travel around the area where the

16:16

murders happened and he had a

16:19

criminal history. Lots

16:21

of red flags. Lots.

16:23

And so when they brought Paul Onions

16:26

out they they

16:29

flew him out on May 2nd and they did

16:31

a photo lineup of several suspects.

16:33

One of them being Ivan

16:35

Milat and on

16:37

May 5th Paul identified Milat

16:39

as Bill the man who

16:42

had pulled a gun on him and

16:44

attempted to rob and likely kidnap

16:46

and murder him four years earlier. Oh

16:49

my goodness. Now

16:51

at this point they didn't have any

16:54

evidence to definitively link Milat to the

16:56

actual murders but they did now have

16:58

evidence linking him to Paul Onions attack.

17:03

At 6 36 a.m. on May 22nd 1994 50 police officers surrounded

17:06

Ivan Milat's

17:11

house armed

17:14

with shotguns and covered in

17:16

bulletproof masks. Now

17:19

they had a lot of intel on him. They knew

17:21

that he had this obsession with weapons and

17:24

they'd been watching him and knew that you

17:26

know this existed in his house.

17:29

And he was also known to protect himself

17:31

ferociously. So that's

17:33

why they created this whole

17:35

like SWAT team

17:38

to prepare. Right. And

17:41

actually instead of swarming into the

17:43

home they decided that they were

17:46

going to basically call him with

17:48

a negotiator to try to coax him out of

17:50

the house. Because they were

17:52

afraid that if they raided the home

17:54

he would escape and be on the

17:56

run. So

17:59

Detective Chief Superintendent Wayne Gordon, who

18:01

was at the time the lead

18:03

police negotiator, called Ivan

18:05

Milat's phone number once all the

18:07

police officers were in place surrounding his

18:10

house. When

18:12

Milat answered the phone, he tried to

18:14

pretend that it wasn't him. Like,

18:17

he tried to be like, no, this isn't Ivan

18:19

Milat. But Gordon knew

18:21

his voice. Gordon

18:25

would later say that Milat was quote,

18:27

very alert and challenging on the phone.

18:29

He was confident and cocky. He wanted

18:31

to be in charge. I think he was trying

18:33

to hide things in the house during that time.

18:37

There were two separate phone calls that had to

18:40

take place and Milat was kind of joking around.

18:43

But finally he agreed to come out of

18:45

the house. He

18:47

exited the home with his girlfriend

18:51

and was immediately arrested.

18:54

Oh, shit. Now the charges

18:56

he was arrested on at this point

18:59

were robbery and weapons charges related to

19:01

Paul Onions' attack. Right.

19:04

And one officer recalled that he seemed unfazed

19:06

about the fact that he had just been

19:08

arrested. But

19:11

this arrest on the Paul Onions

19:13

charges allowed police to search Milat's

19:15

home. And in

19:17

that search, they found a lot.

19:21

Mm hmm. But it actually wasn't all found

19:23

right away. So like

19:25

I said, they were aware that Milat

19:27

had this arsenal of weapons. But

19:30

when they first entered his home, they

19:33

only found one hunting knife and

19:35

a part of a gun, like a replacement

19:37

part, nothing else. But

19:41

as they started searching more and more, they

19:43

figured out where everything was. Now

19:47

two of Milat's brothers had been interviewed prior

19:49

to this raid. As part of the investigation,

19:51

because like I said, they were suspects too.

19:53

But they were cleared when their employment records

19:56

showed that they were at work when the murders

19:58

took place. But

20:00

because they had been interviewed, Ivan was

20:02

aware that the investigation was getting closer

20:04

to him. So

20:07

he hid everything

20:10

in the cavities in walls

20:12

in his home and

20:14

behind insulation in the ceilings.

20:18

Wow. And

20:33

this was well concealed at first when

20:35

they opened up the ceiling. They didn't

20:38

find anything, but then they pulled back

20:40

the insulation and that's when they found

20:42

the motherload. Oh my gosh.

20:46

In these cavities in the walls

20:48

and ceiling, as well as in

20:50

bags and boots throughout the house,

20:53

they found lots and lots of

20:55

weapons. This

20:58

included rifles, shotguns, crossbows,

21:01

knives, and tons of

21:03

ammunition. And they found

21:05

weapons that matched those that they knew

21:07

were used in the murders. Two

21:10

.22 caliber guns and a bowie

21:13

knife. Later,

21:15

the Rugger .22 rifle

21:18

found at Milat's home would be

21:20

matched with ballistics analysis to several

21:23

of the fired casings and bullets

21:25

found at multiple crime scenes. They

21:28

also found a lot of other evidence. They

21:31

found a postcard written to Ivan

21:33

that he said was his,

21:35

but it was addressed, Hi Bill.

21:38

So after he confirmed this was like a

21:40

postcard written to him, they asked if he

21:43

also like went by Bill. Yeah.

21:46

And he was like, Oh, no, no, no, that wasn't for me.

21:48

That must have been a mistake. But

21:50

who knew this wasn't? Yeah.

21:53

You already admitted that it was for

21:55

you. And we already know that your

21:58

bill. You

22:00

used that name with a whole onion. And

22:04

then they found items belonging

22:06

to several of the victims. No,

22:08

I mean good, but... I

22:11

know. So in both

22:14

Ivan's house and the homes

22:16

of his mom and several

22:18

of his brothers, police found

22:20

clothing, camping gear, sleeping

22:23

bags, and more belonging

22:26

to the victims. So

22:29

specifically in these searches, police

22:31

found Simone Schmittel's blue sleeping

22:34

bag and tent, along

22:36

with a headband identical to the

22:38

one found on her body. Simone's

22:41

German brand portable stove and

22:43

other mountain sports

22:45

equipment. Simone's

22:47

water bottle that was marked with

22:49

her nickname, Cimi. Gabor's

22:53

Indonesian currency because him and

22:55

Anja had recently visited Indonesia.

22:59

Paul Onion's blue denim shirt that was

23:01

in his bag left in the car

23:03

when he fled. And

23:06

Caroline Clark's camera. And

23:11

then in his brother William's

23:13

home, police found a photo

23:15

of Ivan Milat carrying Deborah

23:17

Everest's sleeping bag. This

23:21

photo was dated March 29, 1991. Deborah

23:25

and James disappeared in January 1990.

23:31

So Ivan Milat was taken into

23:33

custody and questioned, but during the

23:35

entire interview, he remained uncooperative. He

23:38

wasn't answering questions with straight answers

23:40

beating around the bush and just

23:42

didn't give anything up. I

23:45

wonder if his family unknowingly

23:48

was using these people's

23:51

things or do you think that

23:53

they like... I hope

23:55

not. I don't know. I mean, it's definitely a

23:57

possibility, but I

23:59

don't know. I don't think so. I honestly think

24:01

he just stored stuff there. Okay.

24:04

I was just like, oh, finding their

24:07

clothes. Yeah. No,

24:09

and this is just my speculation, but

24:11

I would guess that he probably started

24:13

storing the stuff there shortly before he

24:15

was arrested. Like

24:17

it was all in his home and

24:19

then moved it because he would later

24:21

try to shift blame onto his family

24:24

members. Oh, okay. That's nice.

24:26

Yeah. And we'll talk more about that. So

24:29

years later, Bob Gaughton, who was the

24:32

detective that was the lead investigator on

24:34

the case, recalled that when he was

24:36

taking blood and hair samples from

24:38

the lat after his arrest,

24:41

a cold shiver went through

24:43

his body. Gaughton said, quote, I

24:45

looked up and there's Ivan looking at

24:47

me with those cold sadistic

24:49

sadistic eyes and

24:52

a smirk on his face. Oh,

24:54

of course he had a smirk on his face.

24:56

Right. And he probably is sitting there thinking like,

24:58

oh, they're not going to find all the stuff in my house.

25:00

Like, of course they're going to find it. Like, it's

25:03

not like you hit it that well. But

25:05

you're not that smart. Exactly. Yeah.

25:09

Two of Ivan's brothers, Wally and Alex,

25:11

were also arrested on firearms charges for

25:13

what was found in their home. And

25:16

investigators were hopeful that they would either

25:18

turn on Ivan or like blame him

25:20

for the evidence found in their homes so

25:22

that they could basically get more evidence against

25:24

Ivan. But his brothers never

25:27

like turned on him at all. Which

25:29

is not surprising because they're all

25:31

criminals. And yeah, I mean, in

25:33

a lot of cases, criminals

25:36

don't typically flip unless they really have something to

25:38

gain and there would really be nothing for them

25:40

to gain. Yeah, it's not like they

25:42

were being charged with like murders or

25:44

anything like that. Right. I wonder

25:46

if they knew like, do you think

25:48

they had any insight to what he was doing? I

25:52

don't know. And that's something a lot of people

25:54

question is if they knew. I don't

25:56

think they knew the extent of what

25:59

he was doing. Okay.

26:01

So the day after his arrest, Ivan

26:03

Milat appeared in court for

26:06

the robbery and weapons charges and he

26:08

did not enter a plea and was

26:10

remanded to custody or you

26:14

know was to remain in custody. He didn't get bail

26:16

at that point. Yeah. On May 31st 1994, nine

26:19

days after Milat's arrest,

26:22

he was officially charged

26:24

with seven counts of

26:27

murder. Wow. He

26:29

continued to maintain his innocence despite

26:32

the massive amount of evidence found

26:34

in his home, which he

26:36

claimed he had never seen before

26:38

and that it wasn't his. Okay.

26:42

It's just saying, oh, just in

26:44

my walls like, oops, I don't

26:46

know what happened. Magic. Like, yeah,

26:49

ridiculous. A month

26:51

later, Milat dismissed the family lawyer,

26:53

James Marson, the same man who

26:55

got him acquitted on that kidnapping

26:57

and rape charge in 1971. Wow.

26:59

And this is

27:01

because Marson advised Milat to

27:04

plead guilty because of

27:06

everything that was found. Yeah. But

27:08

instead of listening to his advice,

27:10

Milat dismissed him and basically tried

27:12

to fundraise for a better defender,

27:15

but he ended up being represented by a public defender.

27:17

Okay. Milat's

27:20

committal hearing was about a month and a half

27:23

long spanning from October 24th to December 12th 1994. Over

27:29

200 witnesses testified during the hearing and

27:32

the evidence was found to

27:34

be enough to go to trial. So he

27:37

was remanded to custody and would remain in

27:39

jail until his trial eventually began

27:41

almost two full years after his

27:44

initial arrest. On

27:46

March 26th, 1996, Ivan Milat's trial

27:49

at the Supreme Court of New South

27:51

Wales commenced. He was

27:53

charged with seven counts of murder

27:55

for the deaths of Deborah, James,

27:57

Caroline, Joanne, Simone, Anja, and Gabor

28:00

and one count each of attempted

28:02

murder, false imprisonment, and robbery in

28:04

relation to Paul Onions. And

28:07

he pleaded not guilty. Jeez,

28:11

dude. So

28:13

now of course there was a

28:15

huge amount of evidence against him.

28:17

The victim's belongings found in his home,

28:19

the weapons that matched those used

28:21

in the murders, the

28:24

photo of him with Deborah's sleeping

28:26

bag, but he continued to

28:28

maintain that he was innocent. Milat

28:32

would later talk with ABC

28:35

in Australia, the Australian Broadcasting

28:38

Corporation, for

28:40

coverage of him on Australian

28:42

story, and in

28:44

that he explained his defense saying, quote, my

28:46

basic defense in my trial was that it

28:49

wasn't me. I don't know who did it.

28:51

It was up to them to prove my

28:53

guilt, not for me to prove my

28:55

innocence. Which is technically

28:57

true. The burden is on

29:00

the prosecution. You're innocent until

29:02

proven guilty. So

29:05

his lawyer argued that there

29:07

was no non-circumstantial proof that

29:09

linked Milat to the murders.

29:11

So even the ballistics matching,

29:14

that was circumstantial because it wasn't, they

29:16

weren't able to match it to any

29:18

of the bullets found that killed the

29:20

victims. It was just hand-keeping at the

29:23

crime scenes. I was afraid of that.

29:25

It was going to be like circumstantial.

29:28

Yeah, technically it is all

29:31

circumstantial. So DNA, there's blood.

29:33

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the

29:35

evidence was found at multiple of the

29:38

Milat homes. So they

29:40

tried to pin the murders on

29:43

his brothers, specifically on his

29:45

brother Richard. Richard

29:48

was actually tried in relation

29:51

to weapons, drugs, and stolen items

29:53

found on his property during the

29:55

search. So this gave the

29:57

defense the ability to connect him. to

30:00

the evidence found and try to pin it on him.

30:04

Despite Milat's defense trying

30:07

to pin the murders on his

30:09

family members, several members

30:11

of his family testified in

30:14

his defense and provided alibis

30:16

for him for the days that the murders took

30:18

place. False alibis

30:20

because we know now. You

30:23

did it, but yeah. That

30:26

even took the stand in his own

30:28

defense, during which he denied everything. The

30:31

cross-examination of him was

30:34

pretty intense. It was

30:37

ruthless, with prosecutor Mark Tedeschi not

30:39

letting him make up excuses. From

30:43

Ivan Milat the last ride, quote,

30:45

he faltered after Tedeschi reminded him

30:47

that the gun parts that he

30:49

said were put in his home

30:51

by someone else were painted in

30:53

camouflage colors in the same fashion

30:55

as his other hunting equipment. Tedeschi

30:59

had pointed out that it was an

31:01

amazing coincidence considering that Milat had already

31:03

admitted that the paints used were in

31:05

fact his. So the

31:07

prosecution laid out all of

31:10

the evidence and discussed that

31:12

while yes, it was mostly technically

31:14

circumstantial, it was very clear that it

31:16

linked him to the murders. There

31:20

was a lot of evidence found at his

31:22

home and the fact that it was clearly

31:24

hidden made it even more damning.

31:29

145 witnesses testified for the prosecution,

31:31

including Paul Onions, who discussed his

31:33

attack by Ivan Milat.

31:36

Milat's trial lasted 18 weeks

31:39

and the jury deliberated for three days.

31:43

On July 27th, 1996, Ivan Milat was found guilty

31:45

on all counts. Wow.

31:51

For each of the seven counts of murder,

31:53

Milat was sentenced to life in prison without

31:55

the possibility of parole. For

31:58

the counts of attempted murder, Milat was sentenced to three days. and

32:01

false imprisonment of Paul Onions, he was

32:03

sentenced to six years each. When

32:08

he was found guilty, Milat only

32:10

said, I'm not guilty of it. That's all I

32:12

have to say. Okay.

32:15

Yeah. Ivan

32:18

Milat was sent to Maitland, Maitland

32:21

goal, which is also known as

32:23

Maitland Correctional Center in East Maitland,

32:25

New South Wales. And

32:27

on his first day there, he was beaten

32:30

by another inmate. Wow,

32:32

wasted no time. No,

32:35

truly. On

32:38

May 16th, 1997, after almost

32:40

a year in prison, Milat attempted to

32:42

escape. So

32:45

convicted drug dealer George Savas and

32:48

Milat planned an escape, but their

32:50

plan ended up failing, obviously. And

32:53

Savas was actually found dead in his cell

32:56

after taking his own life. Oh

32:58

shit. After

33:01

this attempted escape, Milat was transferred

33:03

to Goldberg Correctional Center, where he

33:05

would be imprisoned in the maximum

33:07

security unit. Of course,

33:09

Milat appealed his convictions. In

33:12

November, 1997, he filed an appeal claiming

33:15

a breach of his common law right

33:17

to legal representation, claiming that he was

33:19

not given proper legal aid. But

33:23

the Court of Appeals dismissed this. It's

33:26

like, bruh, you fired

33:28

your lawyer and then

33:30

fired a new one. Yeah. Yeah.

33:34

Like, sorry you had a public defender, but like, that's your bad. Yeah.

33:38

In 2004, Milat filed an application with

33:40

the High Court of Australia to be

33:42

granted special leave to appeal on new

33:44

grounds. The

33:46

court also dismissed this application and upheld

33:48

the Court of Appeals decision to deny

33:51

his appeal. Excellent.

33:54

He appealed in 2005, twice in 2006, and in 2011, but each

33:56

appeal was

34:00

denied and he remained in prison. Milat

34:03

also attempted to harm himself on several

34:05

occasions while incarcerated. In

34:09

2001 he swallowed razor blades, staples,

34:11

and other metal objects. In

34:16

2009 he cut off his own finger

34:18

with a plastic knife, this time with

34:20

the intent of nailing it to

34:22

the High Court of Australia to

34:24

force an appeal. Why

34:28

he decided this is beyond

34:30

me and why he thought this would work is

34:32

beyond me, but obviously it did

34:34

not work. Yeah this idiot like send it

34:37

back to him. In

34:39

2011 he went on a

34:41

nine-day hunger strike in an attempt to

34:44

be given a police, a police, a

34:46

playstation. Obviously

34:49

he lost 25 kilograms

34:51

or 50 pounds

34:54

during this hunger strike,

34:56

but it was he was denied he didn't

34:58

get his playstation. In

35:02

June 2005 Milat's former lawyer James

35:05

Marsden made a deathbed statement claiming

35:07

that Milat had been assisted by

35:09

his sister Shirley in the murders

35:11

of Joanne and Caroline. This

35:15

has never been proven and Shirley

35:17

has never been connected by authorities

35:19

but it is interesting that Marsden

35:21

would claim that on his deathbed

35:23

because like what does he have

35:25

to gain from that? Nothing. Unless

35:27

he just wants to like stir the

35:29

pot up a little bit. That's

35:31

definitely a possibility or if he has

35:33

like a grudge against Shirley for some

35:35

reason like who knows but yeah but

35:38

she's never been officially connected so just

35:40

putting that out there. In

35:43

2015 Boris Milat Ivan's brother

35:45

claimed that Ivan had admitted

35:47

to shooting that taxi driver

35:49

in 1962 when he was

35:51

17 years old. So

35:54

I briefly mentioned this in part one but

35:56

Neville Knight the driver was robbed and shot

35:58

in the back that left him paralyzed

36:00

from the waist down. Another

36:03

man named Allen Dillon was ultimately

36:05

arrested for that crime and served

36:07

five years in prison, but

36:09

Boris is sure that Ivan was the one who

36:12

did it. So in 2015, Boris

36:14

spoke with Steven Aperin, a former

36:17

homicide detective who worked on the

36:19

Milat case, and he

36:21

claimed Milat's involvement, and Aperin

36:24

actually administered polygraph tests on

36:26

both Boris and Allen Dillon.

36:29

After which, Aperin was convinced that Milat was

36:32

the one who was guilty of the robbery

36:34

and shooting. I

36:36

mean, it fits. It

36:38

fits, and Dillon has never

36:40

officially been cleared by authorities, and authorities

36:43

have never charged or definitively connected

36:46

Milat, but they have

36:48

acknowledged the similarities because of the

36:50

fact that Milat paralyzed several of

36:52

his victims before murdering them. Yeah,

36:55

that's very true. Now,

36:57

Boris Milat is the only Milat

36:59

family member to publicly denounce his

37:01

brother. In

37:05

2019, he told 60 Minutes, quote, "'He

37:08

was dead to me a long time ago. "'This

37:10

man is just an evil serial killer, "'right to

37:12

the last bone of him.'" In

37:15

May 2019, Ivan Milat was

37:17

diagnosed with terminal esophageal cancer.

37:21

In August of that year, he was moved

37:23

to a secure treatment unit of the Prince

37:25

Wales Hospital to receive treatment for his progressing

37:28

disease, but he eventually

37:30

ended up denying treatment. As

37:34

it was clear that Ivan Milat's life was

37:36

nearing the end, New South Wales police officers

37:38

decided to visit him to see if they could

37:40

garner a confession. And

37:43

they actually visited him eight

37:45

times, and they were

37:47

hopeful that he would confess because

37:49

he had still never confessed to what he had done.

37:52

Yeah. Of

37:54

course, this did not work. From

37:57

a statement from the police department, quote,

38:00

Various strategies were deployed on

38:02

each occasion, including different combinations

38:04

of detectives and utilizing recorded

38:06

interviews with victims' families as

38:08

an investigative technique. No

38:11

further information was received or provided

38:13

to police during the interaction. It

38:18

is believed that Millet confessed to his

38:21

mother that he was the backpack murderer.

38:25

Now in that 2004 interview

38:27

on Australian Story, Millet

38:30

denied that his family was involved

38:32

or knew about the murders at

38:34

all. This

38:36

was interesting to people because he

38:39

at his trial used the defense that

38:41

his brothers were the guilty ones, yet

38:44

now he's saying, no, they weren't involved, they didn't

38:47

know anything. I guess he's like, well, that

38:49

didn't work, so I might as well just go

38:52

the other way. Yeah, exactly. So

39:07

there are reports that on her deathbed,

39:09

Margaret Millet said that while Ivan never

39:12

officially confessed to her, he did tell

39:14

her that he was responsible for the

39:16

murders. It

39:19

is believed that this is true,

39:21

but it's never been officially confirmed

39:23

and he never officially confessed to

39:26

authorities. At

39:28

4.07 a.m. on October 27, 2019, 74-year-old Ivan Millet died due

39:30

to complications of his disease.

39:37

Prior to his death, Millet had written

39:39

to his family requesting that the New

39:41

South Wales government funded his funeral. Okay,

39:46

this of course was denied

39:49

and instead his body was

39:51

cremated and basically his

39:53

prison funds paid for

39:55

his cremation. There was no deathbed

39:57

confession as some had hoped, despite the fact that he was not

39:59

a police's efforts to get him to

40:02

admit anything before he died. Of course

40:05

not. I mean, they rarely

40:07

do. No. But

40:10

this was especially pressing because police

40:13

believed that Milat was involved in

40:15

many more crimes than he was

40:17

convicted of. Yeah, so do

40:19

we. A list of 58 unsolved

40:21

death and disappearance cases were

40:23

reviewed by Task Force Air for Milat's

40:26

potential involvement. And

40:29

many people believe that he

40:32

could be involved in several

40:34

of these. But

40:37

that is what we are going to discuss in

40:39

part three because I want

40:41

to fully share

40:44

those victim stories. I don't

40:46

want to like cut it short. I want

40:48

to go in depth on all of these

40:50

because several of these are,

40:53

there's been a lot said about

40:55

them and a lot discussed about Milat's potential

40:57

involvement. And so I really want to like

40:59

go in depth. So that's why I'm going

41:02

to make it a part three so that we can

41:05

talk about them, focus on

41:08

those potential victims and the

41:10

known victims. Because this

41:12

part was very heavily focused on like

41:14

Milat, his arrest, his trial, all of

41:16

that. Right. So I want to give

41:19

some time to the victims as well.

41:22

But before we end today's episode, when

41:25

Milat died, two of his

41:27

brothers spoke out saying that they

41:29

believed he was innocent. Bill

41:32

and Richard Milat, which if you

41:34

remember, Richard is the one who

41:36

specifically tried to say did it.

41:38

Yeah, he tried to pin it

41:40

all on him. Yeah. They

41:44

both said that Milat was a good

41:46

guy and that they did not believe

41:48

he was guilty. Good

41:50

guy. That's very no.

41:54

No. This why even if

41:56

he didn't do these

41:58

heinous He

42:01

still did a lot of other shitty things.

42:03

And he blamed your brother for the murder.

42:07

So yeah. Okay. Where

42:10

he's a good guy. Yeah. No. Speaking

42:13

with Nine News in 2019, Richard said, quote, I

42:15

don't think anything of the police force. I

42:17

don't think you can trust them. It

42:20

has nothing to do with anything.

42:22

No. Like,

42:25

good try. Now, Maureen,

42:28

who was Wally

42:31

Milat's former wife, also

42:34

spoke out against Ivan. And

42:37

she is the only, or

42:39

she's another one that spoke out against

42:41

him, but she's not technically

42:43

like a immediate family. So

42:46

that's why it's said that like Boris is the

42:48

only one who's spoken out against him of his

42:50

family. But Maureen

42:53

is one of the ones

42:55

that Ivan had an affair with.

43:00

Maureen had an affair with Ivan while she was

43:02

married to Wally for over a year

43:04

before they broke things off. While

43:09

she regrets that part of her life, she

43:12

says that she believes Milat was

43:14

not innocent. She said,

43:16

I just don't want to think that he could

43:18

be capable of doing something like that. But

43:21

I believe that he did it. He's

43:23

not innocent. After

43:26

his death, she said, quote, to me, he died 20

43:28

odd years ago. And

43:31

when he was arrested, when he was arrested for this, I

43:34

have no feelings whatsoever. He's just a

43:36

person that's died. I'd rather remember him

43:38

as the person I knew a nice

43:41

person. So

43:43

like, can you imagine what she,

43:45

the feelings that she had of

43:47

like, she only knew him as

43:49

like a nice, you

43:52

know, by her account, a nice guy. And

43:57

now she's finding out that

43:59

he did. all of

44:01

this. Yeah, and likely

44:03

maybe even like during their time. Mm

44:05

hmm. Together. So I mean, she

44:10

definitely has conflicting

44:12

emotions, which yeah, probably is experiencing

44:15

conflicting emotions. Because if she's with him for

44:17

over a year, chances are she was probably

44:19

in love with him. And yeah, you

44:22

know, just the whole

44:24

it's very convoluted. It

44:26

is and she probably honestly

44:28

like shut down. When she found

44:30

out what he did, and tried to

44:32

just like remember who she knew

44:35

him as. And so it makes sense that

44:37

when he died, it didn't

44:39

even faze her because she's like, he

44:42

died to me a long time ago.

44:44

Yeah. Wow. So

44:46

part three will be out later this

44:48

week, we'll discuss all

44:50

of the potential crimes that Milat

44:53

has been linked to. Like I

44:55

said, there's 58 that Task Force

44:58

Air reviewed. Obviously, they've never been

45:00

able to fully link him to any of them.

45:02

And he never confessed to any other crimes.

45:06

No, at all. And that's kind of why

45:08

they worked so hard. Of course, they wanted

45:10

him to confess to the murders he was

45:13

convicted of as well. Because like, even though

45:15

he was convicted, that still gives you another

45:17

like step of closure for the victim's families.

45:20

But they were also hopeful he might confess

45:22

to some other crimes. But

45:24

he never did. Yeah. So

45:27

we will discuss several of those.

45:29

We'll also discuss Milat's great nephew

45:31

who was convicted for murder. So

45:35

yeah. Yeah,

45:39

this family there was a lot, not

45:41

a lot of not so great stuff. But stay

45:44

tuned for part three, it'll be out later this

45:46

week. And until then, keep

45:49

it human. Bye guys.