0:02

To even question what you've

0:04

been told is true is incredibly courageous

0:07

. It doesn't always feel like courage

0:09

. What looks like courage to other people , For

0:11

me it feels like survival . This

0:14

is our personal medicine . If I'm surrounded

0:16

by thinkers , by lovers , by

0:18

passion , by integrity , then I really

0:20

do think that I know who I am . There is a piece

0:22

that is indescribable when you're

0:24

being who you are and you're living your purpose

0:26

, When I come to the end of my life and be like I

0:28

didn't live the life I was meant to live , Can

0:31

I be so comfortable in the unknown and

0:33

so comfortable in that uncertainty

0:35

that every version of it is going

0:37

to be okay ? This

0:39

is the Inner Rebel Podcast .

0:49

We are so excited to introduce our

0:51

guest today . We have Christine

0:53

Pride , who is an accomplished

0:55

and talented writer , editor

0:58

and season publishing veteran who

1:00

has held high-profile editorial posts

1:02

at major trade imprints including Double

1:04

Day , broadway , crown

1:06

, hyperion and Simon Schuster

1:08

, and helped publish a range of amazing

1:11

books , including a number of New York

1:13

Times bestsellers . In 2021

1:16

, christine made the transition into being an author

1:18

herself and , alongside her friend

1:20

, joe Piazza , she co-authored the

1:22

hottest book of 2021

1:24

, the bestselling novel We Are Not Like Them

1:26

, which was a Good Morning America Book

1:28

Club pick and listed as a best book

1:31

pick of 2021 by Harper's

1:33

Bazaar and Real Simple . Christine

1:35

is also a freelance editorial consultant

1:37

. She also pens the column Race

1:40

Matters for a cup of Joe , which is so

1:42

good , and Christine and

1:44

Joe are about to release their much-anticipated

1:47

new book , you Were Always Mine , which

1:50

I just had the privilege to read and is

1:52

so , so good , and that hit shelves

1:54

on June 13th next week . Christine

1:57

, through your books and your column

1:59

, i see you as such a catalyst

2:02

for fostering more

2:04

vulnerable , honest and healing

2:06

dialogues about race and

2:08

class identity and relationships

2:10

between friends and families and communities

2:12

, so I want to thank you for the richness

2:14

and generosity of your work

2:16

. We're so honored . We feel really

2:19

excited to have you with us today

2:21

, so thank you for joining us .

2:23

Well , that was quite the intro , and I'm so

2:25

happy to be here And I love having

2:28

these deep , rich , honest

2:30

, vulnerable conversations . I mean , as you

2:32

said , that's why I write , that's why I work

2:34

in publishing , to publish other books

2:37

that foster these kind of conversations , and so

2:39

I'm so excited to have one of them

2:41

with you here today We warn

2:43

Christine that we go deep .

2:45

We do .

2:46

There's no surface level . I'm in a book club

2:49

that we're very serious . It's not like a social

2:51

wine drinking I mean it is also but

2:53

we really read the books and have thorough

2:55

discussions . And I told them we were interviewing you and they're

2:57

like OK , well , we're going to read the book and

2:59

we're going to make the podcast a requirement

3:02

also , and I was like this is so fun

3:04

.

3:04

I love that .

3:06

I know They were so excited They're like , oh my gosh

3:08

, this is such a great you know , and I know you probably

3:10

get that all the time , but it was fun to integrate

3:13

this into a piece of my personal life too 100%

3:15

, And that's the beauty of book clubs I love .

3:17

You said that you have like a serious book club

3:19

which I think you can drink

3:22

the wine and have the snacks and be serious

3:24

too , I like to think . But I love this

3:26

idea that you're gathering

3:28

really to have a meaningful conversation

3:31

about books . And I love book clubs because they

3:33

start about the book but then they ideally

3:36

venture into people's personal

3:38

lives and they can serve

3:40

as a catalyst and a launching point to share

3:42

and talk about the real

3:45

stuff , so to speak , And so I'm

3:47

a big fan of book clubs . for that reason

3:49

, absolutely .

3:50

So , speaking of the real stuff , we ask

3:52

a question to our guests . You

3:54

know , we just read a list of your accomplishments . We

3:56

understand how the world sees you , but

3:58

we're also very curious how you experience

4:01

being yourself . So you can answer this

4:03

any way that you like , but we'd

4:05

like to ask you who are you and

4:08

how is that different from who you

4:11

thought or were told you

4:13

were supposed to be ?

4:14

Oh , we're really going deep , fast

4:16

and really thoughtful , and

4:19

I'm going to answer on the fly

4:21

here . You know that's such an interesting but

4:23

obviously hard question , because I think

4:25

who are you on one

4:27

level is something that's always changing

4:30

right . I mean especially when you think of a

4:32

whole lifetime . I'm about to be 47

4:34

this summer And I

4:36

feel like there's been many iterations

4:39

of who I am . At the same

4:41

time , i feel like as a person

4:43

I've stayed remarkably the same , and

4:46

it's so interesting to me because , especially you

4:48

know , we are not like them . My first book

4:50

with Joe was about a lifelong friendship

4:52

and I have so many friends

4:55

that fall into that category , right , friends

4:58

that I have been close with

5:00

since , you know , first grade , second

5:02

grade and so on , and

5:04

with that you can really have

5:06

kind of a mirror reflection , right

5:09

, have how you're the same or

5:11

different , because you've had somebody to

5:13

witness all those iterations of

5:15

yourself and all the different experiences

5:17

and how they've changed you . And

5:19

so I think it is remarkable that I

5:21

have felt like myself

5:24

, if that makes sense , from

5:26

such a young age , and that has

5:28

not really deviated a lot

5:30

. I've obviously been changed

5:33

and grown by experiences , but I

5:35

feel really lucky in that way that

5:37

who I am , the core of

5:39

who I am , remain the same . I

5:41

don't know if that answers your question , but I would say who

5:43

I am is steady . That would be

5:46

an adjective that I would use

5:48

to describe how I move in the world

5:50

.

5:50

I'm curious what the through line is you

5:52

know throughout your life that helps you connect

5:55

to that sense of who

5:57

you are . What is that experience of being

5:59

you that you identify with

6:01

?

6:02

I think it's a real sense of self

6:04

And again , i think this is something

6:07

that I was sort of lucky to be born

6:09

with . Some of that is innate , that

6:11

you just have some sense of self-possession

6:14

, and I think it's something that my parents

6:16

really nurtured in me as well

6:18

, a confidence to believe in both

6:20

my capabilities and

6:24

you know confidence , but

6:26

also a real concern with

6:28

the outside world , as

6:31

it were . I think one of the things that I've struggled

6:33

with the most in that capacity that I think

6:35

a lot of women won't relate to , is

6:37

this sense of what is expected

6:39

of us as women And I'm as much of a

6:41

you know sort of ingrained people , please

6:43

, or as the next person , right . So

6:46

the idea of I want

6:48

to be guided by what is real and

6:50

right and true for me , but I also

6:52

loathe the idea of anybody being

6:54

upset with me , unhappy with me , disappointed

6:56

in me , and so I think that's

6:59

where that self-possession comes in

7:02

right , where you can weather

7:04

that a little bit better , even

7:07

though those messages are so insidious when they come

7:09

at us . And , like I said , it's really ingrained

7:11

in me . But I have

7:13

that sort of counterbalance

7:15

of really being true

7:18

to what I believe and what I want

7:20

and with such a balance

7:23

throughout life And , i think , honestly , something

7:25

that you get better

7:27

at over time I found

7:29

that , luckily , to be the case

7:32

.

7:33

Yeah , it's one of the great things about Life

7:35

After 40 is you start to care less

7:37

about other people's opinions . But

7:39

it sounds like you've really had to untangle

7:42

that people pleasing or rebel against it

7:44

in order to live more authentically , even though

7:46

your authentic voice feels so innate for you

7:48

. So I'm curious has it been

7:50

age that has helped you navigate

7:53

that , or what are some of the other things that you've

7:56

had to , or that you've called upon in that

7:58

process of being less paralyzed

8:00

by people pleasing ?

8:02

Yeah , I think it's age . I mean , as you said

8:04

, there is a shift that happens . And you

8:07

know , like when you talk to teenagers today and

8:09

you say , oh my God , just wait . And it's

8:11

so condescending And I remember being a teenager

8:13

and I'm like , ah , I mean I felt

8:15

that same way , I think , in my 20s and 30s

8:17

when people would say , when you get to 40 , you're

8:20

not going to care and you're going to be liberated and all the

8:22

things that they tell us . But turns out

8:24

it's true , There is a real

8:26

shift And I think the

8:29

actual shift comes more with this

8:31

idea that it doesn't work

8:33

. I think that's what you realize , right

8:35

, Like you can spend like nine people

8:37

pleasing or contorting yourself

8:40

or trying to measure up or

8:43

chasing these . You know illusions

8:46

of perfection or all the things . But

8:48

if it worked , that might be

8:50

a different story , right , If everybody did that and

8:52

then everybody accomplished all those goals and

8:54

was perfectly happy , we'd keep doing

8:56

it . But I think by the time you get to a point in

8:58

your life you realize

9:01

all the energy that sucks

9:03

up is sort

9:05

of pointless And you don't have that same

9:08

level of energy anymore , frankly . So

9:10

you have to really be clear about where you're

9:12

spending your emotions and your

9:14

time , And I just don't

9:16

have the bandwidth , I think , to do

9:18

that anymore .

9:20

And that's actually a theme that

9:22

runs through the book . It's a struggle for

9:25

a lot of your characters . There's all

9:27

these characters who are hiding aspects

9:29

of their identity or they have a fear of being abandoned

9:31

, right if they're seen for who they really

9:34

are . So , given that there's

9:36

this through line for you of actually feeling quite

9:38

connected to your truth and quite consistently

9:41

authentic , I'm curious why

9:43

this is a theme that you're drawn to in

9:45

your work .

9:46

Yeah , that is so interesting that you say that because

9:49

, especially for our first book , we

9:51

are not like them . Riley

9:53

is our black character and Jen is our

9:55

white character in the book And

9:57

people often asked me

9:59

specifically are you Riley ? Or

10:01

how are you like Riley Are ? people make

10:03

these assumptions . I mean that happens all

10:05

the time , right when writers are writing fiction

10:08

Is the character you , or what parts of

10:10

the character are you ? And to some

10:12

degree with our second book too , with our main

10:14

character , Cinnamon Hance , who's also a black

10:16

woman . I think it's really interesting

10:18

that we created

10:20

characters that are so different

10:22

from us And Riley is so different

10:25

from me , And mainly in the way that you

10:27

describe that Riley has a really hard

10:29

time accessing her emotions

10:32

and talking about her emotions and

10:34

admitting vulnerability And

10:36

she hides behind her

10:38

ambition and her drive to succeed

10:41

and to get to the next level right . For so

10:43

many people It's all about the chase

10:45

, And the same with Cinnamon , the

10:47

main character in our second novel . She

10:50

has a lot of trauma in her past that

10:52

she feels like she'll be judged

10:55

for , And so she doesn't , especially

10:57

as a black woman , right when you fall into the stereotypes

10:59

and tropes of having certain kinds of backgrounds

11:02

, And so she doesn't want

11:04

to reveal those things . And as

11:06

a person living in the world , I

11:08

feel the exact opposite . Right , I'm a

11:10

person . This is why I so support the mission

11:13

of your podcast , Because I'm just a person

11:15

who feels like we have to be honest , We have to be

11:17

vulnerable , We have to live our truth

11:19

. Nothing ever comes from pretending

11:21

I couldn't deny an emotion that came

11:23

over me if I wanted to . I don't understand

11:26

people who can kind of pack things

11:28

away and compartmentalize them . Sometimes

11:30

I wish I could do that , maybe even a little better

11:32

, but it is what it is , And

11:34

so I think I've subconsciously

11:37

really created characters

11:39

that are so different for me but that I want

11:42

to help get

11:44

to an emotional place

11:47

that they feel freer , And that

11:49

has kind of been the arc for

11:51

both of these characters through

11:53

their journeys in the story right To

11:55

get to a point where they can trust more , be more

11:57

open , more in touch And , what's

11:59

fascinating , how that comes

12:02

to be even with out a

12:04

level of direct intention .

12:06

One that sounds like you're using your innate

12:08

natural gift . Sometimes we can't even recognize

12:10

the things that we're so good at And we're like , oh , if

12:12

it comes so naturally to me , could I really even

12:14

make a difference with that thing ? But it sounds like that's exactly

12:17

what you're doing , and I loved

12:19

when you wrote in the epilogue about choosing

12:22

yourself , being clear on what you

12:24

want and trusting your intuition

12:26

, and as I read that I was like these

12:28

are the three things that I think women

12:31

struggle with the most or at

12:33

least in my experience as a coach , and

12:35

that choosing yourself as often

12:38

at the foundation of everything . I'm

12:40

curious how do you navigate choosing yourself and

12:42

being clear on what you want and trusting your intuition

12:44

in your life ?

12:45

It's a daily challenge . I

12:48

mean , i think one thing that really helps

12:50

is community and to have

12:52

people around you that ground

12:54

you . I mean that's been really important

12:57

to me and that is why I wanted to write

12:59

a book about friendship And I mentioned

13:01

that I have a lot of lifelong friends , because

13:03

that's such a force for good

13:06

in people's lives , or it can be

13:08

, and that is a sort

13:10

of checks and balance system for me to

13:12

have people that I trust , who

13:14

can tell me if I'm not

13:16

choosing myself , or who can

13:18

help reflect that back to me

13:21

or when I express an intuition

13:23

and if I'm about to go against it . It's

13:26

like , well , no , you said that You

13:28

felt this way , or remember how you thought this

13:30

about a person or a choice or

13:32

would have you , and I think it's

13:34

really difficult to live life

13:37

in a vacuum and to live

13:40

your life by those three principles that we just talked about

13:42

in a vacuum , and so really

13:44

having people in my life and a partner

13:47

and a family that

13:49

helped me with that has been really

13:51

beneficial .

13:52

Well , I think that's really interesting , because I think

13:54

a lot of reasons why people tend

13:56

to go against

13:58

themselves is for that sense of belonging

14:00

or is to appease others , right ? So

14:03

that speaks , i think , a lot to the quality

14:05

and the kinds of people that you surround yourself

14:07

with And how well you feel known and

14:09

seen by them , that you

14:11

would trust them in that way .

14:14

And that makes a big difference , i think

14:16

, having people that you can be your true self

14:18

around and it's

14:21

not easy to do . And again

14:23

, that is one of the things that came

14:25

up between our two characters , jen

14:28

and Riley , in the first book , where it's

14:30

how intimate and true a

14:32

relationship can you really have if

14:34

you're not bringing your full self to it

14:36

. And these are two women who

14:38

have been lifelong friends , who get to

14:40

their 30s and

14:43

realize because

14:45

of dramatic external circumstances

14:47

but that happens to us right , that realize

14:50

or forced to realize that

14:52

their relationship isn't as close

14:54

as they might have thought it was . And

14:56

I think that happens to a lot

14:58

of us in friendships or

15:00

in family or in marriages right

15:02

, where you go along and you go along and you think you

15:04

have this good relationship and then

15:07

something happens or you just

15:09

kind of internally

15:11

realize that you are not bringing

15:13

your full self into this relationship And that's

15:16

a really hard thing to

15:18

shift , but it's

15:20

the most beneficial

15:23

or impactful things to shift right

15:25

. There's no point at least in my mind

15:27

in being in a relationship

15:29

that is at

15:32

best superficial but at worst

15:34

is damaging to you because you feel like

15:36

you're constantly approaching it

15:39

with a level of pretense , and I think that

15:41

can be really damaging to people . So

15:43

I really try not to

15:45

do that in my life And , if anything , to

15:47

model that so other people don't do that

15:49

.

15:50

Yeah , And I think it's so tricky because you don't

15:52

always know you're doing it . When

15:54

you talked about code switching , which I

15:56

think both Jess and I learned

15:58

about that term for the first time .

16:00

There's an article in Cup of Joe just

16:02

for clarity , christine , as a column

16:04

, race Matters And there is this

16:06

article on code switching , which was a new concept

16:09

for both of us .

16:10

As I was looking into that , i'm like that

16:12

was one of the greatest sources

16:14

of my anxiety . I had pretty

16:16

horrible anxiety for really up

16:18

until my early 30s and I'm 40 now

16:20

And that whole

16:22

principle of I have to be this

16:25

version of me over here in order to

16:27

be loved And I have to be this version over here in

16:29

order to be loved or at least that's what I believe And

16:32

you realize that you mold

16:34

yourself to be this different person throughout your

16:36

life And it's the subconscious thing

16:39

that's happening until you

16:41

start to become aware of the disconnect

16:43

that you feel internally And I fundamentally

16:46

felt like something was wrong with me and

16:48

who I actually was , and that I had

16:51

to do that Because if I was actually

16:53

me , then I would for sure lose

16:55

my sense of love and belonging . And

16:58

so just to bring it back to the

17:00

fact that you have had such solid friendships

17:02

and communities and what a critical component

17:04

that is in life is that feeling of

17:06

I get to be all of me and

17:09

that's actually what you want from me . You

17:12

don't want me to try to be somebody different , but it's so

17:14

hard , it's one of the hardest things .

17:17

Well , Melissa , let me . Am I allowed to ask questions on

17:19

this podcast to switch it around , Of course

17:21

, because I'm so curious .

17:22

No , just kidding Yeah .

17:26

How you sort of broke out of that mold then

17:28

right , because I think that , as you said , it's really

17:30

hard to do and there are a lot of different

17:32

ways that people do that or sort

17:35

of shook into doing that , whether it be a life

17:37

changing experience or therapy or

17:39

a friendship , that makes all the difference . So

17:41

what was ?

17:42

it for you . There's about 9,000

17:44

examples I can give honestly . But one of the

17:46

biggest things that I've done is gotten community

17:49

and intimate groups of

17:51

women So I do masterminds

17:53

that I participated in . I have done

17:55

a lot of sacred feminine work in really

17:57

safe , intimate

17:59

groups of women with trauma informed facilitators

18:02

, where the expectation was that you

18:04

show up vulnerably and instead

18:06

of hiding , and the facilitator knows

18:08

how to hold that container in a way where you actually

18:11

are safe . And doing

18:13

that over the last eight years on

18:15

repeat has allowed me to go deeper and deeper

18:17

and realize that I

18:19

mean some of it is true . I have lost my

18:21

belonging the more that I have become myself . So

18:23

it's not an illusion , it's not like oh , i made that

18:26

whole thing up , it actually happened . So

18:28

forgiving forgiving

18:30

when those things have happened , but also really

18:33

sticking out very purposefully communities where

18:35

that's the norm , and also now I

18:37

facilitate those in my business , and

18:39

so I agree with you wholeheartedly

18:41

that you cannot do it without the mirror of

18:43

other people .

18:44

Yeah , and I think it's interesting that you say that

18:46

in a good point that there's not

18:48

not a cost , right , like I think

18:51

, in terms of being vulnerable and showing up as

18:53

your full self . I mean , we tell people to do

18:55

this and we want them to do it And

18:57

it's still net net . You know a good thing

18:59

, but nothing is 100% good or 100% bad

19:01

. But people should be prepared for the fact that

19:03

, as you say , when you , when you are self-possessed

19:05

and when you show up as your real self , and when

19:08

you are not a people pleaser

19:10

, and when you are willing to put yourself

19:12

first and follow your intuition and all these things

19:14

, there can be collateral

19:17

fallout to that

19:19

and people should be ready

19:21

for that with the understanding that still

19:24

, the benefits outweigh those

19:26

costs .

19:27

Yeah , but I think it's important to be honest about that because I

19:29

don't even think it's . If I think it's , when

19:31

I've yet to find an example of someone that's really

19:34

navigated through this and stepped fully

19:36

into themself that hasn't had some collateral . You

19:38

bring in so much more joy and

19:41

so much more truth and the community that

19:43

you really want to be surrounding you , and

19:45

maybe you have a different partner

19:47

that you call into your life , but I've seen a lot of marriages

19:49

dismantle . I've seen some

19:51

pretty big friendships dismantle . I've had

19:53

two really heartbreaking friendship breakups

19:56

that I've navigated and so I think

19:58

it's . It's almost inevitable , but

20:00

to your point it's . It's worth

20:02

it because who you get to be and who you get to

20:04

be surrounded with on the other side of it is

20:06

it's like I can breathe . I can

20:08

stop pretending . This is so refreshing .

20:10

Cole hardedly agree with that .

20:12

I actually think this is exactly what the book you

20:14

are always mine is about , and

20:16

it was one of the major conversations that

20:18

I took from the book , which is

20:21

the one that the character seemed to be having between

20:23

the systems and social constructs

20:25

that prescribe our identities and our

20:27

sense of self , and how that conflicts with

20:29

our need for love and belonging

20:32

, who we think we need to be in order

20:34

to have that acceptance because of those societal

20:36

narratives , and how those narratives actually

20:38

end up obstructing connection

20:41

. both of the women in the book

20:43

do have to make sacrifices to

20:45

make the choices that are right for themselves

20:48

and lose things as a result of

20:50

that and gain things as a result of that . So

20:53

I'm curious what is the discussion

20:55

that you hope people are having after

20:57

reading this ?

20:58

Exactly that . I mean , we are saddled

21:01

with so many expectations

21:03

, and particularly as women

21:05

, and then you add a layer of how

21:07

you move in the world with regard to your

21:09

race on top of that , right , and how it affects

21:12

things . And what we

21:14

really like to show in our novels

21:16

, both our first book and in this one

21:18

, is what happens when you turn those troops

21:21

on their head right And look at those

21:23

common scenarios from a different

21:26

perspective , right ? So we

21:28

always hear of

21:30

white parents or white mothers

21:32

fostering or adopting

21:34

black children or raising

21:37

black children or brown children , and

21:39

we rarely see the reverse

21:41

or even think about the reverse . So the premise

21:44

in and of itself , at face value

21:46

, whether you read a word of the book or not , i

21:48

think is a provocative premise of what happens

21:51

when a black woman finds

21:53

a white baby and takes this baby

21:55

in , right ? Like that raises thoughts

21:58

and reactions , instinctively

22:01

, right , that are so interesting . But

22:03

the bigger question even is what

22:06

are like responsibilities

22:09

to each other and how do we make decisions

22:11

about what kind of families

22:14

we have that are outside

22:16

the conventional norms ? right

22:18

? You didn't have a two parent

22:21

family with parents

22:23

matched you and you matched your own

22:25

gender , and all the things like

22:28

the quote unquote norms Each

22:30

time you fall outside

22:33

of that very narrow box . There's

22:35

collateral to that And I

22:37

think about that a lot . As a single

22:40

woman well , i'm in a relationship , but

22:42

I still identify

22:45

as a single woman , even in a relationship

22:47

, and a person who has no children

22:49

. I'm outside the box in a

22:51

lot of ways , as our characters are

22:54

, and so it's really interesting

22:56

to look at that perspective of outside the

22:58

box .

22:59

Yeah , and it's so fascinating because most

23:02

people are outside that box .

23:03

I think everyone's outside that box , right . That's the thing

23:05

. It's a ridiculously yeah

23:07

everyone , you're right , not most people .

23:10

Everyone's outside the box , really , yeah .

23:12

Yeah , but I think that's what I mean when I say that . I

23:14

think the question of the book is how

23:17

are we choosing these constructs , these narratives

23:19

, these systems over our

23:22

humanity , you know , over our

23:24

need for simply being

23:26

loved and having connection right

23:29

Now , totally ?

23:30

And also , how do we defy

23:32

expectations in a way , or

23:34

at least to buck up against expectations

23:37

, right That we don't expect

23:39

this scenario , or if a woman gets

23:41

pregnant , we expect her

23:43

to have the baby , or somebody gets married

23:45

, we expect them to stay married

23:48

, no matter what . Or ?

23:49

you know , we have all of these very

23:51

extreme rules .

23:54

I mean , that's really what they come down to Rules

23:57

. Maybe they're unspoken , but they are rules

23:59

in our society about how it should be

24:01

, and anybody that

24:03

falls outside of that is

24:06

wrong . And

24:08

thus it's really hard to

24:10

make choices against those

24:12

expectations . And that's what Cinnamon

24:14

runs up against . Right , she loves this

24:16

baby and she wants

24:19

to help this baby . She

24:21

wants to even help the baby's birth mother without

24:24

giving too much away . But what kind

24:26

of cost does that come

24:28

to her ? What's that gonna

24:30

cost her and is she willing to pay ? it Is

24:33

kind of the driving force of the narrative , but

24:35

that question is applicable in

24:38

a universal sense to us all . And so

24:40

if you ask , what's the question that

24:42

I hope people wrestle with in the book and I

24:44

think that's it What are you

24:46

willing to pay ? What cost

24:49

are you willing to deal with for the love that you want , for

24:51

the life that you want , for the community

24:53

that you want ? as you said , melissa , right To

24:55

get to the other side of whatever

24:57

your crucible is , what

25:00

are you willing to sacrifice along the way ? That's

25:03

a really vital interrogation

25:05

that people have to do on their own lives And

25:07

you can't put your head in the sand , as a

25:09

lot of us try to do , and pretend that we don't

25:11

have to do . That work right .

25:14

You wrote , and I think the same article about

25:16

code switching you wrote who

25:18

do you believe sets the expectations for how

25:20

we can be and why and how do you think

25:22

we can create a world expansive enough

25:24

that we're all allowed to be authentic

25:27

? That is a big question . I

25:29

know that that's really a good question

25:31

for us all to see .

25:32

I'm like why did I ask such a hard question

25:34

?

25:34

Yeah , Pop

25:38

quiz . Where are you sitting

25:40

today with that question ? I

25:42

?

25:42

mean , i'll give you a very recent

25:45

and it's gonna seem trite example

25:47

, but it adds up to something bigger , which

25:49

is , you know , i sent out a mass email

25:51

last night about the book , one

25:53

of those terrible , shameless self promotion

25:56

kind of emails that all authors

25:58

have to do , that it or torture us . And

26:00

I'm such a perfectionist , right , like so I

26:02

had to figure out Mailchimp and all the things . I

26:05

tested the links . I proofread the email like blah

26:07

, blah , blah And the links . None of the links

26:09

in this email work . And it's

26:11

not really my fault , i think it's a Mailchimp issue . But

26:14

I spent the entire morning

26:16

, or good part of it , like spiraling about this , because

26:19

I think those messages

26:21

of perfectionism and

26:23

expectations and being

26:25

accountable to yourself and

26:27

showing up every day and all

26:29

those things seem to coalesce in

26:32

this stupid I will admit

26:34

email situation . But it was about

26:36

so much more than that , right . It's about

26:38

what we can forgive ourselves for and have grace

26:40

for and lower the stakes in

26:43

our lives for , and I think that's what

26:45

we need to do in terms of that big

26:47

question , which is just constantly

26:50

check with

26:52

ourselves about why we're

26:54

having reactions to things and if it is

26:56

something that's externally

26:58

motivated or internally motivated

27:01

, and how we're showing up

27:03

to our work and our relationships

27:06

, and that adds up to me

27:08

to kind of a constant vigilance

27:10

, right . So I could say this morning

27:13

, like what is that about And why

27:15

do I care so much about this And am

27:17

I worried about what people think ? You know I mean all

27:19

of those questions , but they happen

27:22

over and over again , in both little

27:24

ways and email and in big ways

27:26

. You know this relationship isn't working

27:28

And so we just have to really

27:30

stay focused on

27:32

that conversation with ourselves .

27:35

Yeah , well , and I appreciate you just talking about such

27:37

a normal everyday moment . That

27:39

happens when you're actually showing

27:41

up and you're actually putting yourself out

27:44

there and you're doing the thing that scares

27:46

you and you say shamelessly

27:48

, selling yourself . I've been in sales for 18 years

27:50

and helping women embrace

27:53

what enrolling people

27:55

is , versus like forcing your ideas

27:57

on them . But the fact that you've

27:59

achieved on the

28:01

outside such a profound level

28:04

of success I mean

28:06

I shouldn't put in quotes but like as defined

28:08

by a capitalistic , patriarchal society

28:10

you know we get these accolades and we

28:12

have this success and yet we're

28:15

still so human , no matter what we've achieved

28:17

on the outside . And I'm actually curious

28:19

has the pressure that you've

28:21

put on yourself increased now

28:23

that you have had such

28:26

success with your last book and you have a new book coming

28:28

out ? How are you feeling about that ? Is that getting

28:30

worse now that you are more of a public

28:32

figure ?

28:33

Yeah , it's interesting because I've been thinking about this a lot

28:36

and I think the short answer to that question is yes

28:38

, only because it's

28:40

a very different and , i think , an illuminating

28:42

experience , and I'm glad I'm going through

28:44

it . But it's a very different experience

28:47

being sort of front facing

28:49

and public , right . Then it was

28:51

for me as an editor which is what I did for 20

28:54

years before I became an author which is

28:56

, you're sort of hidden behind the scenes and

28:58

you're just rooting for your authors

29:00

, of course , and working so hard on their behalf , but

29:02

you're not the face of anything . You feel ownership

29:04

and connection , but it's not yours

29:07

, right ? And so it's a very different experience

29:09

to put a project out there and

29:11

to be judged about it

29:14

. And I think what I have been struggling with

29:16

in trying to find a balance of is

29:18

we'd wanna tell

29:20

ourselves that we don't care what other people think

29:22

, right , we try to stay off Instagram

29:25

or not compare ourselves to others , or we

29:27

say you're doing your own journey

29:29

and who cares what anybody else is doing , and

29:31

all of those things which I think are healthy

29:34

messages . But then

29:36

you publish a book , and I'm sure there are other

29:38

corollaries , but in my case , you publish

29:40

a book and it really does matter what people

29:42

think , like you can tell yourself it doesn't

29:45

, but it actually

29:47

does right , like , and

29:49

this whole if one person loves

29:51

your book , then that's enough

29:53

is a lovely idea . But it's not

29:55

actually true , because

29:58

you need lots of people to love

30:00

your book right To have a career

30:02

as a writer . And so there is

30:04

that sort of dichotomy that I have

30:07

been struggling with , which is having like a healthy

30:09

sense of holding myself

30:11

and I did the best job that I could , and

30:13

I can't internalize

30:15

so much people's reactions to

30:18

the book and luckily so far they're positive

30:20

, but we'll see versus

30:22

. I have to care about what people

30:24

think but still protect myself worth

30:27

, and that is hard work . It's

30:29

a not easy thing to do .

30:31

Yeah , and I think it's lifelong . The more that you

30:33

step into a higher calling

30:36

, the more that you claim your

30:38

true gifts , the more that you get bold about

30:40

them , the more public facing you are , the

30:43

more that you're not hidden anymore

30:45

, the more that you are at risk of

30:47

other people's opinions really

30:49

hurting you . I mean , i have a lot

30:51

of thoughts on this . It's something that I navigate all

30:54

the time , and I help women navigate is is

30:56

it worth it to you to stay hidden

30:59

and behind the scenes ? What's the

31:01

cost of that ? And never having known

31:03

what it feels like to write

31:05

the book , to use your voice

31:08

, to make the difference that you know you're here to make

31:10

? And a lot of people choose to

31:12

stay hidden or to stay smaller . We call

31:14

it small town Susie in the mastermind that

31:16

I'm a part of is we stay our small town

31:19

Susie because it feels safer . But

31:21

the cost is never knowing what it feels

31:23

like to publish a

31:26

bestselling book and have the controversial

31:28

conversations that you're inviting to the table and change

31:30

the world by using

31:32

your voice . But it's fucking scary

31:35

.

31:36

Yay . I think a lot of people are

31:38

afraid that it won't be a bestselling book , right

31:40

? And what does that mean for them

31:42

? what does that say about them If they actually go after

31:44

their dream and fail and I don't believe in failure

31:47

, but I think the fear of

31:49

what if I'm not all that ? I hope

31:51

that I am .

31:53

Totally . I think it's scary

31:55

and I think it's really scary to do . I think we have

31:57

to make decisions , though , that are

31:59

not based in fear . You know it's one thing

32:01

that if you don't want to be forward-facing

32:04

or you don't want to have , you know it's not for everybody

32:07

and I don't think that's always motivated by fear

32:09

. My sister does not want

32:11

to talk to anyone about anything . She's classic

32:13

introvert and that's fine . It's not like fear is holding

32:15

her back from following her dreams . But

32:18

I think if you are fearful

32:20

in trying to navigate that , which you know , there's

32:22

a certain amount of built-in fear in this process

32:25

. The one thing that's helped me is to

32:27

think about what my goals

32:29

are , and I think if your goal is

32:31

and I tell writers that I coach this if

32:33

your goal is just the external recognition

32:36

, then you're always going to set yourself up for failure

32:38

. If you're writing so people tell you

32:41

you're a good writer , or you're writing

32:43

so that people tell you to get on the

32:45

New York Times bestseller list , that

32:47

is a futile and

32:50

you know kind of cynical goal . You

32:52

have to write because , or

32:54

any sort of art or any life decision that

32:56

you make , you have to pursue

32:58

it because it's intrinsically

33:01

going to make you happy and there's another motivation

33:04

there . So , for example , Joe and I , particularly

33:07

when things got rough between us in terms

33:09

of our collaboration and

33:11

obviously I've been in book publishing long

33:13

enough to know that most books are not a success

33:15

, right , like it's just . Publishing is a brutal industry

33:17

And so I went into it eyes

33:20

wide open in terms of you

33:22

know , i can't do this because of

33:24

the bestseller list or because of XYZ . So

33:27

the goal had to be we want to start

33:29

conversations , like we want people

33:31

to read this book and

33:33

learn something or think about

33:35

something in a different way , and

33:37

so that became our guiding light , like

33:40

if people did that , then we would feel the

33:42

book is a success . I'm unlucky that

33:44

it was , but I think you have to define

33:46

what success is going to look

33:48

like to you , and it can't be

33:50

external , it has to be

33:53

internal and you have to be

33:55

prepared that if it doesn't

33:57

work , it doesn't destroy your self

33:59

worth . Right , like that's what I'm talking about

34:01

, that like protecting that balance . If this

34:04

book sells no copies and the book

34:06

that we have coming out , it sells no copies

34:08

and it gets panned everywhere , i

34:11

will still go on . Live it . You know what I mean . Like

34:14

I still have to go on and have a career . So how do

34:16

I balance that ? And you have to be

34:18

prepared for that outcome . That's just realistic

34:20

And that's part of the work too .

34:23

Yeah , How do you balance it ? I'm curious because

34:25

I think this is really relevant to

34:27

anybody that's chasing a big dream , And before

34:29

you answer , I want to really just reiterate

34:31

the being deeply

34:34

rooted in a bigger . Why is

34:36

so essential ? because you're

34:38

right If we're constantly out here

34:40

and wanting to have the world

34:42

reflect back to us how awesome we are , but it's

34:44

not rooted in anything internal , then

34:46

it always feels empty and you are at

34:49

a high risk of being disappointed

34:51

. So I would love to hear

34:53

how do you balance that ? What happens ? I

34:56

mean , we're going to just assume that this book is a massive

34:58

success . You don't even have to worry about this and

35:00

every book you ever produce is a grand

35:02

slam . You know home run It's probably

35:04

not the right language , but bringing in my softball

35:07

background But what do you

35:09

do ? How do you navigate it ?

35:12

Well from your lips . I

35:14

think that that's where the big why

35:17

comes in . You know , your motivation

35:19

hasn't changed

35:21

, and so I'm not motivated

35:24

necessarily by the book selling

35:26

a million copies or being on the bestseller list

35:28

. I mean that would be nice , but if that's not the motivation

35:31

, then I'm not setting myself up for

35:33

disappointment . That has to be

35:35

icing on the cake . But

35:38

I think a lot of it is perspective

35:40

, and we live in a society where

35:43

everything perfection

35:45

is lauded and everything

35:47

is , you know , go , go , go , go , go

35:49

, achieve , achieve , achieve , achieve , achieve . As

35:51

you said , jessica , like failure is

35:54

something that everybody is just

35:56

petrified of . It's like all the messages

35:58

and all the expectations we've been talking about . It

36:01

is something that takes you actively

36:03

reeling against . So if this book

36:06

is not a success , or I write

36:08

a future book that is not a success , or what

36:10

have you anything in life , even if it's not about the book , if

36:12

the relationship I'm in fails , if I have a

36:14

friendship breakup , whatever , if I send

36:16

another email with broken links ?

36:19

Don't do that . You cannot do that . That's

36:23

the worst .

36:26

But I have to have the perspective

36:28

to ground myself , to say

36:30

that's not the end of the world

36:32

and something that you know can

36:34

help me , even though it sounds really morbid

36:37

and fatalistic but is to think about

36:39

what I will care about

36:41

in 10 years or 15 years or

36:43

20 years , right Or at

36:45

the end . What will any

36:47

of this matter ? What will matter

36:50

or what will , I think , seem so

36:52

huge at the moment but

36:54

will fade away with time ? And

36:57

being conscious about that is

37:00

something I try to do . But this is

37:02

all work in progress kind of thing . I don't want you

37:05

guys or anybody listening to this to think I'm just

37:07

like walking around perfectly confident

37:09

and self-possessed all the time , Like I'm so

37:11

grounded and I'm doing my mindfulness exercises

37:14

and my gratitude journal every morning and all that It's

37:16

work . I just consider it work to try

37:19

to stay in a positive , authentic

37:22

, vulnerable place , And

37:24

it's something that I just try to be really conscious

37:27

about . And I'm not always successful , as

37:29

you know , none of us are but

37:31

I really try every day .

37:33

Had you always wanted to be a writer , or

37:35

was that a new discovery ?

37:36

That was a new discovery . I mean , i've always

37:39

been interested in storytelling

37:41

and I went to journalism school

37:43

where I thought it was going to be a broadcast anchor

37:45

, of all things , which is kind of funny to think about now . And

37:48

then I got into publishing

37:50

at a pretty young age

37:52

and I started as an editorial assistant

37:54

which is how a lot of people

37:56

publishing started and then worked my way up , and

37:59

so I really thought I was going to be an

38:01

editor for the rest of my life . I really

38:03

loved doing it and I felt

38:05

like I was good at it . Especially

38:07

, you know , when you do something a long time in a career

38:10

, the benefit of that is that

38:12

you feel experienced

38:14

and wise , and being a writer

38:16

thrust me into a

38:19

world and an experience that

38:21

I was completely novice at , and I'm

38:23

glad I did it . But I have to tell you it

38:25

is really hard to do something

38:27

completely different after

38:30

40 . Like I mean , just have such a queer

38:32

pivot and to go from kind of

38:34

I'm an expert in doing this

38:36

, i mean by way of doing it for so long

38:39

, to oh my God , this is completely new

38:41

And I don't know how to do this and I have to learn

38:43

on the fly and I have to be

38:46

vulnerable and be willing that I

38:48

don't know how to do this and to learn

38:50

all these new skills

38:53

, which has been

38:55

a gift in and of itself . I have to say , the

38:57

ability to pivot and

38:59

do something new is

39:02

something that I stumbled

39:05

into almost , but

39:07

it's just like a beautiful pivot . I

39:09

think I would have been very happy continuing to be an editor

39:12

, but what I've learned about myself

39:14

and having the opportunity to grow

39:16

and try something different

39:18

even though it's been ups

39:21

and downs , obviously , and terrifying and

39:23

who knows what happens It's a

39:25

much more vulnerable world to work for yourself

39:27

as a writer career-wise , financially

39:30

, you know all those things But I

39:33

think it's still worth it , and

39:35

so I have been telling people

39:37

I mean , this is a continuation of our conversation

39:39

about fear These leaps

39:42

and pivots are terrifying

39:44

, but they can be so worth it , and so I

39:46

just want to be a person who is extolling

39:49

the virtue of doing that , because sometimes

39:51

, if you don't see role models , i mean if you don't

39:53

see right if we don't talk about

39:56

it , then it feels scarier , right

39:58

? So I'm a big proponent

40:00

of taking the leap . I

40:03

really want to encourage people to do that .

40:05

Did you find yourself navigating through fear

40:07

and insecurity at that time

40:09

that you decided to write the book with Joe ?

40:12

For sure . Oh

40:14

my god , it was terrifying It really

40:16

, especially when you work in publishing

40:18

, as I did for so long . You

40:20

know exactly what's happening behind the scenes

40:23

And you've worked with the very best

40:25

people in the entire world in terms

40:27

of the very best writers

40:29

. I worked with Jonathan Latham

40:31

and Colson Whitehead . All these pulled

40:33

surprise winning Nash book award-winning writers

40:36

and such smart editors in the

40:38

business . And then you're putting

40:40

your work out there for them

40:42

to judge it , and that is really

40:45

hard . It's one thing for a stranger in

40:47

Nebraska to read your book you

40:49

might never see that person . It's

40:51

another thing for your boss to read your book . You know and

40:54

have thoughts about it , and so for me

40:56

that was the biggest challenge

40:59

. I didn't realize the emotional

41:01

vulnerability that

41:03

writing involved , and I think it's

41:05

a sort of thing that you don't

41:07

know it until you do it . Really , i mean

41:09

, i've been an editor for so long . I feel kind of

41:12

silly saying that , because of course it's

41:14

hard , but until

41:16

you , like , walk in that shoe where you're showing

41:18

somebody your work , something

41:20

that's personal and come from your

41:22

head and heart and

41:24

involves a certain level of

41:26

judgment of talent , it's really

41:29

really hard , and so I

41:31

think it's made me a better editor

41:33

because I am really sensitive

41:36

to the emotional dimension

41:38

that writing requires

41:41

in a way that I wasn't before

41:43

.

41:44

I'm really interested in the conversation that you were having

41:46

with yourself before taking this leap

41:48

, because a lot of people have

41:50

a desire , but bridging the

41:52

gap between the desire and actually doing the thing

41:55

is a really interesting conversation

41:57

to have , because I'm sure people listening to this

41:59

will be like I have this thing , I have

42:01

this desire or this calling or

42:03

this thing that's pulling me . So

42:06

what was the conversation you were having with

42:08

yourself of I want to make this change

42:10

. I feel ready now

42:12

. What was that that you were like

42:14

? now's the time to do this ? What

42:16

I'm running towards is bigger than the fear

42:19

that I have .

42:20

I think for me it was

42:23

so incremental . I think that's

42:25

what makes it easier . It's not like I went in one day

42:27

and I was like I'm going to quit my

42:29

job and I'm out of

42:32

here and there was sunshine , music

42:34

playing , and then I went to a coffee shop

42:36

and I opened up my laptop and it was like page

42:38

one , the beginning . It

42:47

was much more baby

42:49

steps than that , and so that's what I tell

42:51

people who are writing , but it's applicable to

42:54

whatever you're trying to do is

42:56

figure out how it can be

42:58

a part of your current day to day

43:00

life so that it doesn't feel so drastic

43:02

. So in my case , i still had

43:04

my day job and I was still publishing

43:06

books when Joe and I first started

43:09

talking about writing this project

43:11

together and we

43:13

were like , let's see what happens . So we

43:15

started and we worked . She

43:18

was also very busy . We worked a

43:20

couple hours a week and

43:22

then , okay , there's something here , the momentum

43:24

built , we worked a little

43:27

bit more And that helped both

43:29

of us that we took

43:31

baby steps into this whole process . And

43:34

so if you're thinking about starting a business

43:36

or writing a book or screenplay or

43:38

becoming a life coach or whatever it

43:40

is , i would say think

43:42

about ways that you can make

43:44

this a part of your current life

43:46

and see how it feels , and

43:49

see how you make money and see if

43:51

the momentum builds from there . It's

43:53

the equivalent of I'm the person

43:56

who's dipping into the pool , i'll always get

43:58

into the water , but I'm going to go and put my toe

44:00

in and then I'm going to go

44:02

down the stairs or the ladder And

44:04

there are people out there who do the cannonball . The

44:07

cannonball is scarier , right ? That

44:09

is a riskier proposition . You

44:11

don't know how deep the water is , you don't know how

44:13

cold it is , but in both scenarios

44:16

you end up in the water , right ? So

44:19

I chose the dip end , but the

44:21

water was great .

44:22

So here we are . To me it speaks to trusting

44:24

the natural unfoldment of

44:26

your life . You

44:29

seem to have been really happy where you were

44:31

and then saw , as an opportunity presented

44:33

itself , a moment of expansion

44:36

that you then stepped into .

44:38

You know that's so interesting that you say that , because

44:40

I think that you do make different decisions in

44:43

your life in terms of I'm

44:45

unhappy and so I have to make

44:47

this decision , or I'm in a bad relationship

44:49

and I have to make this decision , or I

44:52

hate this job and I have to make this decision

44:54

, and sometimes we have to do that . That happens

44:56

, but I think it leads to a different

44:59

set of decisions than

45:01

I'm comfortable and

45:04

I'm complacent , or everything is okay

45:07

, but what else can I do to be expansive

45:09

? And we're all going to face those

45:12

different scenarios right I mean

45:14

, both of them are kind of unavoidable by

45:17

thinking really proactively

45:19

and I think thoughtfully about what

45:21

those motivations are and looking back and

45:23

thinking about how you made different decisions

45:26

and why helps you make different

45:28

decisions , or think through your decisions for the

45:30

future .

45:31

Yeah , i think one of those promotes the toe

45:33

dipping and one of them promotes the cannonball

45:35

.

45:35

Absolutely . There's a time

45:38

for toe dipping and there's a time for

45:40

cannonball .

45:41

There's a time for cannonballing . We ain't T-shirt Yep . Is

45:43

it your time to cannonball ?

45:45

I love that This could probably be a whole

45:48

other hour conversation , but I really love

45:50

and appreciate that you are this constant

45:52

advocate to talk more about the things

45:55

that make us uncomfortable , like race

45:57

, and how to do it vulnerably

45:59

and imperfectly , to embrace the mess . Also

46:02

, i watched you in an interview with Joe talk about

46:04

your own fear of conflict

46:06

when you and Joe were coming to the table and working

46:09

through things and bringing all your personal experiences

46:11

forward that there was this fear of will

46:13

we actually get through this Right ? Will it be

46:15

all perfect ? Will we actually make it to the

46:17

other side , have these conversations and come out

46:20

stronger ? I think that's a

46:22

really big fear for most people is the

46:24

fear of getting it wrong and messing up . I'm

46:27

just curious , before we go , if you can speak

46:29

to why that dialogue is so important

46:32

and how we might be able

46:34

to start breaking down these

46:36

barriers in our friendships and our communities

46:38

. How can we talk to each other more and

46:41

make it safer to talk to each other

46:43

and not be so afraid ?

46:45

I mean it's so fascinating and

46:47

I think I learned a lot switching

46:49

careers . It's interesting because when I say that

46:51

, it seems like a lot of the lessons

46:54

are about career , craft and that

46:56

sort of thing , but a big

46:58

one was dealing with

47:00

conflict . I would not have been

47:02

in this situation making

47:04

a career switch with Joe

47:06

and dealing with this particular set

47:08

of circumstances . It was

47:11

a conflict avoidant

47:13

person , almost pathologically

47:15

so in a way that I probably wouldn't have known or

47:17

admitted before . This situation

47:20

helped me see it . It was a real

47:22

area of opportunity for me that

47:24

, regardless of my career

47:27

, it helped me learn

47:29

a lot about myself and

47:31

how I deal with conflict . That

47:33

is like I said it was hard , but it's been

47:35

a real growth experience

47:37

. We talk a lot about how hard

47:40

it was because a

47:42

lot of people don't see a way

47:44

past that . They feel like once a conversation

47:47

is hard or uncomfortable or

47:50

painful , then

47:52

that spells the end automatically

47:54

of the relationship , of the dialogue

47:57

. I truly would have thought that

47:59

too , actually , before going

48:01

through this . I'm as steeped

48:03

in our polarized culture as everybody

48:06

else and it's so easy to say , well , they don't

48:08

get it , and write off people and

48:10

things . I would have said this

48:12

is a situation , a scenario that can't

48:15

work because we're having so much conflict

48:17

and pushing through

48:19

that , which required me to

48:21

be open and honest and address

48:24

the conflict and be vulnerable

48:26

about why I was upset and

48:28

hear why Joe was upset or

48:30

what points we were having tension

48:32

about , both creatively . Some of

48:34

that was just being co-writers

48:36

, taking race out of the equation , but some

48:39

of that was really hard conversations about race

48:41

, and in both of those

48:43

, the lesson of pushing

48:46

through really made a difference And

48:48

though we're really honest to say , not

48:51

every relationship can be saved , you

48:53

don't have to , as a black person , sit

48:55

down with the president of your local clan

48:57

, you know , and try to have a dialogue . You

49:00

know we're not talking these extremes , but

49:02

there is room in

49:05

our day-to-day interactions and conversations

49:08

to open yourself up more

49:10

, to asking

49:12

questions of other people , that

49:15

open conversations and

49:17

being willing to listen to other people

49:19

, and then , when you disagree about something

49:22

, being honest about why you disagree

49:24

about that , as opposed to shutting down

49:26

, which I think is a lot of people's human

49:28

instinct , and we've seen that

49:30

happen , like we've seen people

49:32

really even

49:34

go back to old friends , where the friendship

49:37

especially at a lot of people post 2016

49:40

that had a lot of politically fractured

49:43

friendships to go or racially

49:45

fractured friendships , and to

49:47

go back and say this

49:50

is what I was feeling and this

49:52

is why this upset me so much

49:54

, and if you could try to understand XYZ

49:57

and vice versa really makes

49:59

a difference , and that doesn't actually even mean that

50:01

that's going to be your best friend

50:03

for life . We're not so

50:05

kumbaya in that way , but

50:07

it is a skill that we all

50:09

have to get better at in terms

50:11

of being able to sit

50:14

with something or situation or feeling between

50:16

two people or group of people or coworkers

50:18

that is uncomfortable , without

50:20

getting defensive , angry or

50:23

shutting down , and that's just like all

50:25

the things we've been talking about in this conversation takes

50:27

practice . I mean , it really does . It's

50:30

something that you can get better at over time

50:32

, but the problem is we don't practice

50:34

.

50:35

It sounds like choosing to be curious over

50:38

needing to be right and

50:40

also knowing that

50:42

it's probably going to be messy You

50:45

probably might get defensive

50:47

and that it's

50:49

about remaining curious or going back

50:51

and repairing and saying you know my

50:54

intention was to really hear you , and

50:56

what I did was I got really defensive . Let's

50:58

try again , because we're not going to nail it , especially

51:00

, like you're saying , we aren't practiced at this

51:02

And it's something that takes a lot of practice to face

51:05

conflict head on versus trying to dance around

51:08

it , and I think most of us would probably

51:10

dance around conflict . It's

51:12

like a blanket statement . It's easier .

51:14

I mean , we're looking for hacks in our life . The shortcut

51:16

is oh well , I'm done with that . Oh well

51:19

, i'm done with that . Oh well , i'm done with that . But I think what

51:21

we're running up against in our personal lives

51:23

and society is that you can't just keep doing that

51:25

. It's not possible , it's

51:28

not sustainable . And there

51:30

are some relationships that

51:32

might not work and that might not be safe

51:34

or healthy for you , and obviously

51:36

everyone is their own judge of what

51:39

that situation is . But

51:41

there are also , on the flip side , some relationships

51:43

that can be expanded or enhanced

51:46

or deep end with

51:48

this kind of openness

51:50

and emotional vulnerability

51:52

, are willing to overcome

51:55

or tolerate some

51:57

discomfort in that process

51:59

. And so it's less about who are you going to

52:01

reach across the aisle to kind

52:03

of thing , for me at least and more about

52:05

who are the people that you

52:07

love and care about . You're willing to

52:10

go there a little bit more , and that's what

52:12

our characters , riley and Jen , had to do . There's

52:14

so much love between them , but

52:16

they had to be willing

52:19

to dig that much deeper and

52:21

be that much more uncomfortable and be that much more

52:23

open . And they

52:25

got to the other side and Joe and I

52:27

, in a case of art imitating

52:29

life or vice versa . We never know . Did

52:32

art imitate life or did life imitate art

52:34

, but either way , we experienced

52:36

that lesson as well .

52:38

I think it goes back to what we were

52:40

saying before , what you wrote about how do you think we

52:42

can create a world expansive enough that we're all allowed

52:44

to be authentic ? And it's actually through

52:47

the dialogue , through the conversations , through

52:49

coming to understanding , that

52:51

I think that is made more

52:53

possible . We need to understand

52:55

each other's lived experiences .

52:58

That's what we really hope our books do

53:00

, which is allow people to have these kind

53:02

of conversations , because sometimes it's hard to just

53:05

go right in with your personal experience

53:07

, but using a book

53:09

or using these , we hope relatable characters

53:12

to say look how they had this conversation

53:15

, or look at this experience , or this

53:17

brought up this feeling for me . I don't

53:19

know why I felt that way . We hope these

53:22

help . We want people to be having

53:24

these hard conversations and we

53:26

hope our books are a vehicle

53:28

to help people do that

53:30

. That's when you say like what's the mission

53:33

, What's the goal ? What would make me happy ? at the

53:35

end of the day , It's less the New York

53:37

Times bestseller list although that would be nice

53:39

and more you know

53:41

. Lots of people feel changed by

53:43

having these conversations . In

53:45

a perfect world , though both , Both .

53:49

We have both , you know we get to have the and

53:51

.

53:51

It was a privilege to talk to you ladies .

53:54

It was such a privilege to talk to you . I just

53:56

want to say to everybody listening to please

53:58

go out and help You

54:01

are always mine Make the top of the

54:03

New York Times bestseller list And

54:06

then also go home and have really

54:08

deep , meaningful conversations about

54:10

it . Yeah , we are

54:13

so honored that you joined

54:15

us today . Your book is so good

54:17

. I feel so lucky that I got

54:19

to read it in advance , and

54:21

I have no doubt that it's going to be hugely

54:24

successful and I'm really thrilled

54:26

about all the good things that are happening for you

54:28

. So thank you for coming and sharing

54:30

with us today .

54:32

Well , it was really truly a treat to

54:34

spend an hour talking to you ladies Today . I talk

54:36

about , you know , moving deep conversations

54:39

. I am honored that you had

54:41

me on and I will come back

54:44

anytime to chat with you guys . This was

54:46

really really great .

54:46

We would love that . We would love that . Hey there , Rebels

54:48

.

54:59

If you enjoyed this podcast . We would love

55:01

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55:03

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55:18

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55:20

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55:22

to us and we can't wait to continue this

55:24

journey together .