0:50

This is a very , very

0:52

special episode that

0:55

I've been bawling my

0:57

eyes out preparing for

0:59

, because our guest , kelly Mann

1:01

, and I have been friends for 22

1:03

years . Life

1:06

has been a shit show lately for

1:08

her , as she's been building her beautiful

1:11

empire but navigating so much

1:13

that you never really

1:15

expected to happen in your life . I cherish

1:18

you . I cherish who you are . I

1:20

cherish our friendship . I cherish what

1:23

you're doing in the world and the difference that you're making

1:25

and the walls that you're busting down

1:27

every single day by who you're being . None

1:30

of it surprises me , because

1:32

if anyone was going to do it , it was going to be you

1:34

, but I am just so grateful

1:37

to get to have

1:39

this conversation with you , to share you with Jessica

1:41

and to share you with our audience

1:43

. She is the CEO and co-founder of

1:45

On It Minor . Since its release

1:47

in 2021 , on It Minor continues to

1:49

streamline the employee benefit plan audit

1:51

for CPA firms across the country

1:53

. Kelly also is a breast cancer survivor

1:56

and a mom of three amazing

1:58

children . So welcome

2:00

, welcome , kelly .

2:02

Thanks for joining us , Kelly .

2:03

Thank you .

2:04

I really want to dive into all

2:06

of the things , but also you

2:08

two and your friendship , a little bit , just

2:11

to give some context , maybe , to our listeners

2:13

. I know that in preparing for this , melissa

2:15

was just texting me constantly

2:18

and so emotional and so excited . So

2:20

can you take me back 22

2:23

years to meeting

2:25

each other ? I would love to know , kelly

2:27

, what Melissa was like back then and then

2:29

vice versa .

2:32

Yeah . So , oh God , melissa

2:35

and I it's really weird for me to call

2:37

her Melissa . Can I like say your name ? You can

2:39

call me Mo . It's fine Mo Mo , But

2:43

we actually met maybe

2:45

the first week of college . We were both 18

2:48

. We came from respective states like

2:50

Nebraska and Ohio and met in Florida at

2:52

college . She lived in the floor

2:54

below me in the dorms our freshman year

2:56

, but we really didn't hang out other than like

2:58

know who each other were . Right , it

3:00

wasn't until about senior

3:02

year . Well , he actually

3:04

became really good friends with my best friend

3:07

at the time And then my best friend ended

3:09

up moving back to New Jersey

3:11

and Mo just kind of split into her place

3:13

And that's when we really

3:15

started becoming close

3:18

friends . How long did you live together , rooming

3:20

together ? Two years . Okay

3:22

so you saw all the things . Yeah

3:24

, we had no responsibilities and so , like

3:27

Thursday night , friday night , saturday

3:29

night , we went out to the bars

3:31

and had a few too many drinks

3:33

.

3:34

She helped me study for my CPA exam at the pool

3:36

And remember like you were studying for some

3:38

like the tax part of it , And I was

3:40

like I can't believe your brain has to

3:42

remember this stuff Like this is mind

3:44

numbing for me . But we were flashcarding

3:47

at the pool in the afternoon .

3:50

I mean , we really kind of grew into our independence

3:52

together . at the same time , I feel like

3:54

Oh yeah , absolutely .

3:56

What was Mo like at 18

3:58

?

3:58

She was everywhere A

4:00

ball of everything . She still is a ball of

4:02

everything . So the same , i'm

4:05

an introvert and I usually have one or

4:07

two good friends , so all

4:09

of my other friends were like off of Mo's

4:11

tentacles . She would just take me everywhere , but

4:14

I rarely hang out with people outside of Mo

4:16

. I feel like I was most tag along

4:18

everywhere And I really probably kept her

4:20

down to earth because I always called her out on things . True

4:22

, like Mo's Doc , you're being too much . You're too much

4:25

for me right now , yeah . But when you get Mo

4:27

one on one and she listens and she speaks

4:29

her voice and she appreciates the

4:31

ordinary , i would say Thanks

4:34

, can you expand on that ?

4:35

But it's appreciating the ordinary me and I love that

4:38

.

4:38

You can just be sitting on the couch watching TV and

4:40

you can have fun with her . Yeah , something

4:43

simple in your life could happen and she's going to be your

4:45

biggest cheerleader , even though it doesn't seem like a big

4:47

thing , because she knows that to you Like

4:49

oh , your daughter got an A on her math test when she's

4:51

been struggling . That's ordinary to me , but

4:53

she's still going to like be your cheerleader for it

4:56

. She appreciates how big the

4:58

ordinary things are in life And

5:00

it doesn't have to be like she goes

5:02

on trips and she goes to Costa Rica and posts all these great

5:04

things and it's really cool , but she also

5:06

doesn't neglect the fact that she

5:09

went on a walk down the block with her son

5:11

.

5:12

Yeah , i'm going to cry again . That's

5:15

funny , oh , thank you .

5:16

Kelly , that's beautiful . That's

5:19

a beautiful observation . I think that's really true

5:21

.

5:21

Okay , mo , but

5:23

this is not about me .

5:24

I was going to say what was your impression of Kelly

5:26

Well ?

5:28

so Kelly has always been the same person .

5:32

I think you have too , i know .

5:34

We're just more mature . The thing about

5:37

you is that you have never compromised

5:39

your authenticity . You have been a truth

5:41

teller from the moment I met you , almost

5:43

to the point where you're like , could you just lie to me ? like a little

5:46

bit And you've , but you've always been that way

5:48

. You've always stayed true to your voice . I don't

5:50

feel like you've ever been afraid to be you

5:52

from the second I met you And

5:55

I know that's probably not entirely true because we're

5:57

human beings , but you have a way of showing up in the

5:59

world that invites other people

6:01

to be themselves too

6:03

. One of the things that I was really reflecting

6:05

on as I was doing my research

6:07

on you which is so funny , but I was

6:09

like , even though you're this bad

6:12

ass CEO who's changing the entire

6:14

industry for CPAs

6:17

, you're like out of office message

6:19

is the funniest shed I've ever read . It's

6:21

so authentic . You're in a pretty

6:23

masculine dominated industry . The way you , which

6:26

you're showing up with even these men , it's

6:28

like you're not toning yourself down for anybody

6:30

and you're really just letting yourself

6:33

be you , and I love the interview

6:35

that we were listening to this morning . That guy was so

6:37

touched by your heart and the way in which you're

6:39

so committed to living in accordance with your core values

6:42

and not making choices out of fear

6:44

, even if you never built a company . It's

6:47

cool , but it's not even the coolest thing about

6:49

you . You're just such a difference just

6:52

by being you on apologetically

6:54

, and I think that is the essence of inner

6:56

rebel . That's the whole thing . That's

6:58

the whole point of life is to just be you , and

7:00

so that is my experience of you

7:02

And that is why I love you to the core

7:05

, because you don't have a bullsh** bone

7:07

in your body .

7:09

I ask about that because I saw

7:11

, as Mo Melissa was talking about

7:13

you , i saw some of your reactions

7:15

to what she was sharing with you . So

7:17

I would love to get into this truth

7:19

teller piece of who you are , because I saw

7:21

you kind of process like not

7:24

always . So I'd love to know what are the

7:26

parts that you feel you have had to

7:28

sort of overcome and work through in order

7:30

to meet yourself . And also

7:33

where do you think this sort of innate truth

7:35

telling has come from ? Did

7:37

you grow up around that or is that just built into

7:39

you ?

7:40

It's funny because she's like you didn't care what anybody

7:42

else thought of you , you just were yourself . But

7:44

for a long time growing up I felt like no one

7:46

liked me . Because of that , i

7:48

didn't know how to not do that , like

7:50

it was just for me , and

7:53

I think that's one of the reasons why I say , yeah , i have

7:55

one or two friends , but in reality I

7:57

don't . I now know because

7:59

of what I went through . I have this ginormic

8:01

support system of people that like me and luckily , and appreciate

8:04

me , but so many times

8:06

I've just spoken my truth or what I saw are called

8:08

people out and they don't appreciate

8:10

it because I had to learn how to deal

8:12

with class . I think .

8:14

I think you're saying something so important . I

8:17

want you to keep going , but I just I love what you're

8:19

sharing .

8:19

I just tell it and then like some people could take

8:22

that Moe could take that , some people

8:24

cannot take that , and just they'd be like why are you friends

8:26

with Kelly ? I don't get it . I don't get her Like she's

8:28

mean , she's rude , she's hard to work for . But

8:31

it's funny because after Moe and I

8:33

kind of went for a separate state and started our

8:35

careers and everything , i

8:38

was told over and over every

8:40

year in the male dominated world

8:42

I'm sure you guys have heard this Try

8:44

not to be such a bull . In a China shop because

8:46

I asked questions , i said I don't

8:49

agree with that And I always wanted

8:51

to do things different if I thought there was a better way

8:53

. And I always spoke my

8:55

mind and I heard that over and

8:57

over and it came to like I'm not a

8:59

good person . People don't

9:01

like , people are intimidated

9:03

by me and it really sucks

9:06

to feel like you're not good with people . And I was depressed

9:08

for probably six years prior

9:10

to quitting my job I would say the last six years . I gained

9:12

60 pounds . I

9:15

never really did anything outside of just my husband

9:17

and my kids And I had

9:19

this epiphany after about 10 years of hearing

9:22

this that I'm okay with being a bull

9:24

, but I'm not okay living in a China shop And

9:26

I think it took me having

9:28

children to realize

9:30

how unimportant other people's opinions

9:32

are , because you don't want your

9:34

children to live by other people's opinions

9:37

. My oldest daughter she has autism

9:39

and she doesn't care about

9:41

many things And I'm so proud

9:43

of that . Why am I not living my life

9:46

that way ? And I think that

9:48

I couldn't gain the confidence I needed until

9:50

I had those kids and I had to show up for them

9:52

.

9:53

It's so interesting because we do say , like speaker voice

9:55

be your truth in a world where nobody

9:57

wants that .

9:58

Yeah , there's absolutely people that don't

10:01

like me , or at least that's how I perceive

10:03

it . I think there's a lot more that

10:05

do appreciate what I'm doing , and

10:07

I just had to open my eyes to that instead of focusing

10:09

on the naysayers .

10:11

You're just saying so many things that

10:13

are so important and I just want

10:15

to break it down just a little bit . Melissa's

10:17

actually quoted you a number of times the bull

10:19

in the China shop . I love it , so

10:22

I just want to understand , or help our listeners

10:24

understand , more of what that actually means

10:26

to you . My sense is environment

10:29

matters , like where you choose to be

10:31

and where you choose to show up . if the people around

10:33

you aren't seeing you

10:35

or getting you or responding to you , then maybe

10:38

they're not your people . Is that what ?

10:39

you mean , it wasn't anything that

10:41

I was doing wrong , it wasn't anything about my

10:44

personality , it was the culture that I was

10:46

in . The firm is a good

10:48

firm and people thrive

10:50

there and they treat their employees very well . It's

10:53

just the whole time I didn't realize

10:55

that that was my entrepreneurship going

10:57

up . I had no idea It

11:00

wasn't me . It was

11:02

where I stuck myself . It didn't

11:04

have the courage to move outside of there

11:06

because I had kids and I needed the nine to five

11:08

and I had the salary and all

11:10

the good things that make you feel safe .

11:13

The other thing that you said that I just want to reflect

11:15

back . We're here having conversations

11:17

about what it is to meet your inner

11:19

rebel and access your truth and live your

11:22

authenticity out into the world . I think

11:24

a component of that that we all

11:26

have to accept about

11:28

life and living our truth is

11:31

that not everyone is going to like our truth and

11:33

not everyone is going to like us

11:35

. That comes with the territory

11:38

, but we also want a sense

11:40

of love and belonging and community and

11:42

safety . I think what's interesting to me

11:44

about what you shared is you could

11:46

tell that you weren't getting the response

11:48

from people that you wanted , that

11:50

you weren't feeling like you were fitting in

11:52

, and yet you also couldn't

11:54

deny your truth . I'm interested

11:57

in that . And what was happening inside of you ? Was

11:59

it like you just had no awareness

12:01

or ability to repress

12:05

?

12:05

it . Yeah , you know , it's funny , I haven't ever said

12:08

this to anybody but my sister's . But my oldest daughter

12:10

has autism and

12:12

as I was researching

12:14

that and in that world I was like there are

12:16

a lot of factors that

12:18

I feel like I meet . I

12:21

wonder if I'm not in some way

12:23

on that spectrum also and

12:25

just truly don't have that filter

12:27

. I don't know . Another thing

12:29

is that growing up , my

12:31

parents I mean the way

12:33

that they raised us they never put

12:36

us down , They always cheered

12:38

us on and if we asked questions

12:41

they told us the truth . My

12:43

dad had me selling flowers in his

12:45

shop at 10 years old , learning how to talk

12:47

to other people a business setting and you have to be a

12:49

little bit more hardcore in a business setting . At least you did

12:51

in the early 90s . I

12:54

think that also helped because I saw all these adults

12:56

love the way that I was and I was getting

12:58

good grades and I was getting promotions at work

13:01

and being asked to do these things that other kids my

13:03

age weren't being asked to do , and I think it's because of the way

13:05

I was . I should have a lot of responsibility

13:07

and courage , and so there's

13:10

absolutely a positive to it , but

13:12

there's also a negative in that . some

13:14

of my friends , like my peers , were

13:17

a little put off by it , and it still

13:19

is that way in my life today . I have a lot of people

13:21

that have more experience in me that are my biggest cheerleaders

13:23

, but then I have people that are my peers , that used to

13:25

be really good friends . Yeah

13:27

, I consider them friends , but they don't really show

13:29

up in my life anymore and cheer me on .

13:31

Can I ask how you handle emotionally the

13:33

moments where you don't feel that

13:35

you're being received or

13:38

seen , or what have you done

13:40

for yourself in order to be

13:43

okay with that ?

13:45

Actually , when I feel that way , i just retreat

13:48

. It's actually , i think , a weakness

13:50

of mine . I kind of shut down , i don't talk , i

13:52

leave the situation . I don't

13:54

like the way that I'm feeling , and if I don't like

13:56

the way that I'm feeling , i just don't want to be there anymore

13:58

. And so I have

14:00

and I know , mo , you do this , but I have an executive

14:03

coach that I think helped me work

14:05

through that like , if it doesn't bring you joy

14:07

, why are you doing that ? You can do

14:09

a lot of things in life , so why are you

14:11

stuck in the places that don't bring you joy ? You

14:14

don't want to talk to the neighbor down the street because

14:16

you don't feel good around them

14:18

, you don't feel like you can be yourself . Just

14:20

don't go down there and talk to them . There

14:23

are other people in your life

14:25

and those are the ones you need to look at . Don't

14:28

worry about the people that you don't

14:30

feel comfortable with or you don't feel like you're

14:32

yourself with . What a good coach . At first

14:34

you might be sad , but the sadness

14:36

that you have is shielded by the joy

14:38

that you have from the people who do like you , and

14:41

all you have to do is find one person . That's like I

14:43

believe in you . Yeah , because they introduce you to

14:45

more people .

14:46

Yeah , when I love the permission you said it's a

14:48

weakness . You're just

14:50

hyper aware of the way that you're feeling

14:52

and you don't like it , which I would consider

14:55

a strength , because so many people just shove it

14:57

down or they're like I'll just force my way

14:59

into thinking that this is okay And they just stay

15:01

in these cycles and these situations and

15:03

with these people for lifetimes

15:06

. I mean contorting yourself to fit

15:08

in , yeah , and we all do

15:10

it right , but just to have this permission of

15:12

like you actually get to follow your joy

15:14

I know we're not going to show up in every situation

15:16

in our entire lives , like I am so

15:19

joyful but also be very

15:21

diligent and discerning about

15:23

who gets your energy , who gets your voice , who

15:25

gets your time , and I

15:27

think that's really critical because there's

15:29

a lot of things in life that are going to suck the

15:31

energy , suck the life out of us . And

15:33

we have to be so discerning , especially

15:36

when you're somebody like you who

15:38

has these big ambitions and

15:40

you really are making a difference in the world and you're

15:43

getting more of a public face . The

15:45

more that you are audit minor , you're

15:47

exposed to a lot of people now . So

15:49

a discernment is probably . I'm curious is

15:51

it getting more and more critical for you to

15:54

be really hyper aware of that ? Or how is

15:56

that , now that you're a public figure ?

15:58

now That's funny because , like my personality

16:00

, when it was at a position of subordination

16:03

, people didn't appreciate it . But when I'm

16:05

in a position of authority , they

16:07

didn't meet up and they're like you're the best CEO

16:10

for such a strong female because

16:12

I'm all top , but

16:14

if I'm not , it doesn't

16:16

come off that way . I'm

16:18

hard , utterly unemployable . Now is

16:20

what I call people . I have this word

16:22

. It's called brago . I don't know if you've ever heard of the word brago

16:25

, v-i-r-a-g-o . The

16:27

archaic definition is strong

16:29

female warrior . The

16:31

modern day definition is like nagging

16:34

course , girl . And

16:37

I'm like when did that strong female

16:39

warrior become the nagging

16:41

girl ? What happened in our society ? Because

16:44

I am brago , i am that nagging

16:46

girl , but I'm also that strong warrior to

16:48

a lot of other people .

16:50

I mean that's a very loaded question And

16:52

in fact , the mentor that I work with , sarah

16:54

Janks , she has this whole course that

16:57

she teaches and it's about how

16:59

the feminine got repressed over time . She teaches

17:01

it from a sacred lens , but it's literally the history

17:03

of women and what's happened over

17:05

centuries of strong female

17:08

warrior being these authority figures being

17:10

sacred for our gifts to

17:12

being the nagging bitch that

17:14

no one wants to be around . That is not celebrated

17:17

And I think that what's happening right

17:19

now is there's a big shift

17:21

on a macro level . It's

17:23

like a return of the strong female warrior , but in

17:25

a totally different lens .

17:27

I haven't seen that tattoo

17:29

. A couple of months ago , a nipple tattoo

17:32

which we can talk about while I'm getting nipple tattoos , but the

17:35

tattoo artist I loved him , right . He said

17:37

something that really like was purple to

17:39

me And he's very political

17:41

, but he said something along the lines of

17:43

I'm just watching the feminization of

17:45

the United States , what

17:48

? And I'm like why is that bad

17:50

?

17:50

No , he was tattooing nipples , you were just going to start

17:52

a fight in the middle of your nipple reconstruction

17:54

.

17:55

She's a good person . He's doing it because his mother

17:58

was a breast cancer survivor and

18:00

loves nipples too . Just because

18:02

you have opinions that aren't the same as mine

18:04

doesn't make you a bad person , Of course . I

18:06

get so many talks about them because we can connect on a different

18:09

level , But it's just funny that everybody's

18:11

seen it on this macro level . but it's tough to

18:14

some people to bad thing .

18:15

We're interviewing some pretty conscious Yeah

18:18

, they're like really challenging the status quo

18:20

on what masculinity is , and I think that

18:22

that's the bigger piece of it is that men

18:24

are suffering too and they're being put

18:26

in these like even bigger , intense boxes

18:29

and they're being the bad guy , right . It's

18:31

like the rise of feminine is like an F ? you to

18:33

men , which I don't think is valuable . But

18:35

I'm curious , jess , your thoughts on that too , because I

18:37

know we've been talking a lot about that , oh gosh

18:39

.

18:41

What do you think when I heard feminization

18:43

of the US ? or

18:46

a positive or a neutral ?

18:49

We've talked about this before , melissa that

18:51

I think structures

18:54

serve a time until we outgrow

18:56

them . And I

18:58

think we put structures and labels

19:00

to things to help us classify and understand and

19:02

make sense of our world . And

19:04

then , as we evolve in consciousness

19:07

and we start to learn more , those structures

19:09

need to evolve and shift and change with the

19:11

times . And so I

19:13

know there's a lot of resistance to that

19:16

, but really I think what the fight is

19:18

is for all of us to express

19:20

our humanity more fully across

19:22

the board , and I think that's among

19:24

women , i think that's among men , i think that's among

19:27

everyone who identifies in

19:29

between or doesn't identify

19:31

at all . I think we all just want to

19:33

be more human and get

19:35

to embody and express all

19:37

qualities of our humanity , regardless

19:39

of gender . So there's

19:42

resistance to that , i think , because I

19:45

think people feel threatened

19:47

. I think they feel threatened when

19:50

they've disowned things

19:52

in themselves and

19:54

they see it embodied in others . Does

19:57

that make sense ? If a man , for example

19:59

, has not allowed himself to be truly

20:02

embodied and connected

20:05

to his compassion and

20:07

his sensitivity and his vulnerability

20:09

, then watching someone out in the world

20:11

who is embodied in those qualities and

20:13

expressing those qualities is going to be a trigger

20:15

, not because he doesn't have

20:17

those things within him , but he wasn't given permission

20:20

to feel those things , or hasn't given himself

20:22

permission to feel those things . I don't think there's

20:24

a feminization . I think there

20:26

is a natural evolution of

20:29

us all understanding that on

20:31

a soul level , we are actually the same and

20:34

equal , and sometimes

20:36

, in order to come back to equality , the scale

20:38

seems to shift or go to different

20:40

extremes . It seems that way

20:43

, but really it's not actually happening . Voices

20:45

that didn't feel safe to speak up in the past are now

20:47

speaking up , and no disagreement .

20:50

We're in for all agreement with you And that's why we're

20:52

here , and that is why we started

20:54

this podcast and that is why we are bringing

20:57

the people on . that we're bringing on and that is why we're

20:59

having these conversations , because we want

21:01

to normalize this . Yes , it can be

21:03

threatening , but it's also we

21:05

want everyone to win . It's a win

21:07

if everyone can be more

21:09

themselves .

21:10

It's all sort of coming full circle . We go back to

21:12

this quote of the bull in the china shop and

21:15

that we aren't going to belong to everybody

21:17

, and often the people who are triggered

21:20

by us are people who I

21:22

think are disconnected from their

21:24

truth . If they can't handle the truth or

21:26

can't handle your truth , that has more to do with

21:28

them than you , i think . I

21:31

think what you said about learning to speak

21:33

truth with class is an important

21:35

thing to learn . I do . I

21:38

think we have to still be sensitive , and not everybody wants

21:40

to hear it . We can adapt and learn how to be

21:42

more conscious and how we communicate , but

21:44

I don't think we fundamentally need to change ourselves

21:47

because someone else is upset by us . That's their

21:49

stuff . But it goes back to what you

21:51

said Find the spaces , find the people

21:53

, find the communities where

21:56

they're all bulls and we all get it

21:58

and they're able to meet themselves and meet you

22:00

in the same way .

22:01

Yeah , and they're out there . There's somebody for everybody

22:04

. There are some people that own businesses and I'm like

22:06

how are you doing well , who are your customers

22:08

? But

22:10

they're successful .

22:12

There's something for everybody . This is all about owning

22:14

your vision and owning your voice . So , as

22:16

you're meeting this resistance in

22:18

your career of being in this China

22:21

shop and you're like I don't know that I really want to

22:23

be in this China shop , but you started to identify

22:25

this problem in the marketplace

22:28

And I loved in the other interview

22:30

you said I started to own my vision

22:33

. When you said it it was like oh

22:35

yes , i'm not going to give

22:37

this thing away to all these other people

22:39

. I'm going to claim it , so tell us about that

22:42

It was 10 years ago .

22:43

I was told , trying to be such a bull in a China shop , i would come up

22:45

with these new processes , new ways to do things

22:47

, and a lot of them were successful , and

22:50

there was one that I wanted to change . It was kind of late

22:52

in my career at the firm It was the same year that I last

22:54

, but are the year before maybe And

22:56

they said you know , i think that this is a good idea

22:59

, but I don't think that anyone's going to implement

23:01

it if it comes from you . So

23:04

I had to give this idea to a male counterpart . He

23:07

proposed it . Everyone liked it . He

23:09

ended up implementing it . This wasn't an overnight

23:11

thing , right , this was like a six-month thing , but

23:14

that happened to me And some

23:16

of the other things that I had implemented and changed

23:18

and like were really great for the firm . I never got

23:20

acknowledged now . It was never even a thank you from

23:22

the people that were being impacted by

23:24

it . And so when I decided

23:26

I didn't want to live in a China shop anymore and I quit my job

23:28

, i started my own CPA firm

23:30

And all I was going to do was audit

23:33

401k audits . It's

23:35

funny that people don't ask me why 401k audit ? And

23:37

it's because it's the only thing that I felt confident enough

23:39

signing an opinion on . It's

23:41

not really good at them . It's

23:43

because they're small audits and women have this

23:45

confidence thing . That's like I'm not good enough

23:48

. And it's the only thing that I felt good enough doing

23:50

on my own , and that's why I did that . And

23:52

so I started calling all the big technology

23:54

players in the audit space saying what do you have for

23:57

employee benefit plan technology ? And all

23:59

of them said we don't have anything . We

24:01

hung up the phone . It was like great , have a nice day . While

24:03

it was in I think it was two weeks a representative

24:06

from every single company I called had

24:08

called me back And they said

24:10

hey , we heard you were interested in employee

24:12

benefit plan technology . So are we . We

24:15

just don't have an expert with the vision . And

24:17

so I would talk to them maybe 10 , 15 minutes

24:19

about what I thought technology could maybe do

24:21

in this space and how I copy and paste for

24:23

$300 an hour And it's ridiculous

24:26

, a monkey could do this work . And

24:28

so then within three weeks , two

24:30

of those companies had scheduled the Zoom calls with

24:32

me , and this was pre-pandemic before

24:34

. Zoom was cool and normalized right

24:36

. It was like a weird thing to get on camera with

24:38

someone , and one of them was the founder of the

24:40

company , another one was with the VP

24:42

of products , so very high up , and

24:45

at that point I was like , ok

24:48

, hold on , if only one is my vision

24:50

, i want to try and own my vision , and

24:52

so I canceled the Zoom calls and I Googled

24:55

how to start a software company . Oh

24:57

my gosh .

24:58

I'm so proud of you It's a fucking

25:00

ball . It's just so ugh . It's so great Yeah .

25:04

I want everybody listening to take notes

25:06

. I have never owned radar , so

25:09

what was that ? moment It was never a

25:11

thing in my mind . What was that moment

25:13

? Did that feel scary , or did it just feel obvious

25:16

to you that that is the next step ? Or

25:18

both .

25:18

Both . It felt like I was being ridiculous

25:21

And I couldn't tell anybody

25:23

Oh , i love this , because they'd laugh at me

25:25

. Yeah , there were very few people . When was my husband ? But

25:29

I didn't tell him until probably two

25:31

or three weeks after . I Googled that . But

25:34

we were like , how much are we willing to sacrifice for me

25:36

to look at this , to see this through ? Like , are we

25:38

willing to sell our house ? Are we willing to get rid of Netflix ? Like

25:41

, what are we willing to sacrifice ?

25:42

Wait , did you say are we willing to give up our house or

25:44

are we willing to give up Netflix ?

25:46

Is that what you just said ? There's

25:48

so many , so many in between . I love that so much

25:50

, i know . I'm so glad Jessica's getting

25:52

to know you .

25:53

It's great There were very few people

25:55

. I told that first because I didn't want to be laughed at

25:57

, because it was really a dream

25:59

. It just kind of fell into my lap and

26:01

I didn't say no And he closed the door

26:03

on it . I love that , but I

26:05

don't want to be late . I had the space

26:07

because I had quit my nine to five

26:09

job and I had the space to dream .

26:12

Oh , i mean everything .

26:14

Yeah , like I always had something

26:16

to do . I know how this time

26:18

where it's like I didn't have anything going on for an hour

26:20

and I would listen to a podcast and go walk my

26:22

dog and dream and create

26:24

in my head When you're working

26:26

for someone else , they put into your

26:28

head what you need to be thinking about And

26:31

when you get rid of that , it takes some time to clear

26:33

everything out . Like you just realize how

26:35

big the world is and

26:37

how you can move things

26:39

.

26:39

I'm obsessed with you . I love you . There's

26:42

so much gold in what you're saying

26:44

and the idea of we

26:47

can't expect ourselves to have our creative genius

26:49

come through when we're going going

26:51

9,000 miles an hour , especially with other people's

26:53

ideas and agendas . So creating space is

26:55

so critical . The

26:57

fact that sometimes when we have an idea

26:59

, we do need to protect it because if we get that

27:01

laughed at or if we get those nos , it does

27:04

stop us So protecting the

27:06

baby . And I was just talking to a friend about this who's

27:08

launching a business and she was afraid to tell

27:10

some folks in her family And

27:12

I said here's the thing This is your business , baby

27:14

. If you think about your real baby , you

27:17

wouldn't invite everybody to the hospital to meet your baby

27:19

. You wouldn't even let people meet your baby

27:21

in the first three months of having that baby . So

27:23

sometimes we need to be really protective over our babies

27:26

and only share them with the people

27:28

that we know are going to give us a resounding

27:30

hell yes for what you're

27:32

doing , even if it feels so fucking

27:35

ridiculous . Because here's the thing about

27:37

being an entrepreneur I think a lot of it feels fucking

27:39

ridiculous , like a lot of the journey

27:41

. Oh , i didn't think .

27:43

I would be able to do what I'm doing .

27:44

Yeah , everything Mo just said I love

27:46

. I'm going to start calling you Mo Can .

27:48

I just call you Yeah , let's do it .

27:50

Everything Mo just said . And so

27:52

many people are uncomfortable in

27:54

that middle space , in the uncertainty , in

27:56

the unknown , so they leave a situation

27:59

and just want to fill it right away

28:01

. And what you just spoke to I think is so

28:03

important and such a part of the process and such

28:05

a gift that if you open yourself up to

28:08

the spaciousness of uncertainty

28:11

, that is the space you get

28:13

to dream and where new newness

28:15

is born from . It's born in the

28:17

unknown right And then nothingness

28:19

.

28:20

Yeah , that you talk about operationally

28:22

how you do it , because finances

28:24

are a big thing . Not everybody can just put

28:26

their job right . So that is why

28:29

my husband and I talked about are we willing to just get rid

28:31

of Netflix or are we willing to sell our house . And

28:34

my husband fully supported me and said I'm willing

28:36

to sell the house In downgrade

28:38

. I grew up in a three bedroom

28:40

, one bathroom home and we had six people in there

28:42

and we made it work . And I try

28:44

not to be a good person Like it's not the things that

28:47

our kids need , it's the love and the examples

28:49

. And so if he

28:51

wasn't willing to downgrade the home

28:53

and use our finances to support me during

28:55

this transition , i never would have

28:57

been here . If all he was willing to do was

28:59

cancel a Netflix account , i probably would have never

29:02

taken the risk . Now we didn't need to sell

29:04

our home . We actually just finished our basement . It's beautiful .

29:07

Clarifying your priorities . it sounds

29:09

like Clarifying your priorities .

29:11

And for your support system is the person

29:13

you share your life with has to be on board

29:15

with that .

29:15

It's not common . It's not common . I

29:18

see it all the time of just the fight that it is to get

29:21

a partner on board . and

29:24

you know , john , and I have worked through our own stuff of

29:26

me doing my dreams , and I think it's a really

29:28

big

29:30

, important conversation that so

29:32

many women are struggling with . They've

29:35

got this dream and they just need this . I've

29:37

got you , like I don't

29:39

know where we're going , but I've got you

29:41

, and so I think that just you speaking

29:43

that of the significance that

29:45

is , and also just yeah , what is your

29:47

reality ? right , not everyone can afford

29:50

to just quit and build their dreams

29:52

overnight . At the time . there's this middle ground

29:54

of like , how do I have my financial

29:56

security while still giving myself

29:58

space , while still getting the support

30:01

that I need ?

30:02

We went to a dream My husband quit his

30:04

job and started working at a new company so we could

30:06

have health insurance . Like

30:08

it wasn't easy . We

30:10

definitely had to put things in place . Yeah

30:12

, It's not like I quit my job and everything's great . Like

30:15

there was one point in time where I was like , am I going

30:17

to have to get a temporary job at Lowe's

30:19

during the holidays to be able to pay for daycare

30:21

? And that was not below me .

30:23

My question is then what is the calculation

30:27

in those moments that you're making the Twisk and Reward

30:29

, you know , when you have a partner who's like , okay

30:32

, i'm willing to live in this uncertainty with

30:34

you ? what are you actually evaluating

30:36

? Is it like my soul's

30:38

joy over security

30:41

, the vision over the safety right ? So

30:43

what is it that both of you decided

30:45

?

30:45

the vision is worth

30:48

what we might have to give up . You

30:51

didn't like the way that I was treated and you didn't like the

30:53

culture that I was in at that firm And

30:55

he saw the impact that it was having

30:57

on me And for us it was my happiness

30:59

, because I wasn't the same

31:01

person that he fell

31:03

in love with . I don't think I

31:06

wasn't the ambitious go-getter . I literally

31:08

, when we started dating , was applying to the FBI

31:10

and I got in .

31:11

Oh yeah , what ? Because

31:13

that was like one of my favorite moments of you , when you like called

31:15

me and you're like , yeah , i left

31:17

. You have to tell the story because it was your dream

31:19

to be in the FBI .

31:20

I went through your interview process to get

31:22

into the FBI . I was at Dreamtons High School and I got

31:25

in and I was there for four days and I quit . Why

31:28

did you quit ? Because they realized

31:30

now this isn't for me .

31:32

Okay , We all just

31:34

, let's all just like Kelly

31:36

, you're , you're . how did you know ? How

31:38

did you know it wasn't for you ?

31:39

It was draining , i

31:41

was so tired . We had

31:44

to spend two hours learning how to write a damn

31:46

memo . Like I know how to write memos . I

31:49

just saw like paperwork and change

31:52

to a desk Like it didn't have any joy

31:54

when I was there . I don't know , it was that same

31:56

thing . I wasn't happy and I'm like why

31:58

am I ?

31:58

here . I really hope everyone listening has a notebook

32:01

. I know I'm going to listen to this back

32:03

and just take a whole lot of notes . Yeah

32:06

, you were tuning into this

32:08

, like the physical response that you were

32:10

having to it was draining you and

32:12

making you miserable and you listened to that

32:14

. Yeah , Okay , it's

32:17

a masterclass right there in the last 60 seconds .

32:18

Yeah , So we were talking about . There's

32:21

the tangible , like get out your Excel spreadsheet

32:23

, map out your finances , figure out the real

32:26

logistics of making a choice , Which

32:28

you I mean I didn't do that Had

32:31

I done that I wouldn't have started either .

32:32

I'm shocked by that . I did not map

32:34

out what are mermaid , the expenses and how much

32:37

we have in the bank . That wasn't it

32:39

? No , I wouldn't have done it if I

32:41

had done that , And I knew , I knew that I

32:43

kind of kind of trust myself in And

32:45

I think I said to myself all the time is , if

32:47

this doesn't work , what is the worst thing that could

32:50

happen ? And it was well

32:52

. Either we move or I

32:54

walked down the street and get a new job because

32:57

I'm very employable . I'm a CPA with 10

32:59

, 12 years of experience And so CPA , I'm probably

33:01

more employable now than I was before . But

33:03

I knew I could get a job . So

33:06

the worst thing is we have a smaller house and I have a new job , And

33:08

is that really that bad ?

33:10

There are so many people who come to me

33:12

in the work that I do , wanting

33:14

to leave the situations they're in and

33:16

are so afraid to

33:19

quit or lose whatever sense of security

33:21

they have inside of that , and the most

33:23

consistent conversation I think I have

33:25

with them is exactly what

33:27

you said that worst

33:30

case scenario . You're a competent human

33:32

being , you're going to be okay . Sometimes

33:34

we just need to step out If

33:37

we feel so stuck where we are . We just need

33:39

to know that , no matter what

33:41

happens , i'm going to be okay And

33:43

I know I have the inner resources and the competency

33:45

to meet whatever the situation is and

33:47

be okay .

33:48

And it's funny because a lot of it is like what's the worst

33:50

thing that could happen ? I'm not dying , but

33:53

then you fast forward three years of my life and I

33:55

was dying , and now , on

33:57

the other side of it , i have this completely

34:00

different view of how bad can

34:02

it really be ? Maybe we should talk about that

34:04

now . Yeah , and it was

34:06

when I was starting my journey .

34:08

Well , i would love for you to share your story And

34:11

before we jump into that , i just want to say there's

34:13

like what you actually did was you

34:15

got out of the story all the

34:17

fear stories , right , then that's the

34:19

thing that stops us from doing it , and it's literally

34:21

like this is the actual worst case scenario

34:24

, not this story that my monkey

34:26

mind is making up around it . It's like

34:28

this is the reality , because you can get stopped

34:30

by what if I don't make it , or what if I fail , or what

34:32

if I'm not enough , and all those internalize things

34:34

. we have to move , or I have to get a new job . That's actually

34:36

what's happening here .

34:38

Nope , and I put it on paper , you can

34:40

live in your head . I never journal , i do

34:42

not write , but I was a journey during this period of

34:44

time And I think getting it out of my

34:46

mind onto a piece of paper like you can think about

34:48

all what's the worst thing that could happen . But when it actually comes

34:50

out into the world it looks different .

34:52

And so you didn't actually conceive of what

34:54

the worst thing that could happen would be

34:56

. And then something did happen

34:59

.

34:59

Once I Googled how to start a software company , i

35:02

did nine months of market research to

35:04

figure out . I know there's a problem , or I think

35:06

there's a problem to do . The other people in the industry

35:09

that would be paying for this also feel the same way

35:11

. And what exactly is that problem I'm solving ? So

35:13

I did that for nine months , talked to 45 CPAs

35:15

around the country , and then I finally incorporated

35:18

AuditMiner in October of 2019

35:20

. Got my co-founder incorporated

35:22

. It started spending money to build

35:24

the program , all of that stuff . Well

35:27

, six months after I incorporated

35:29

it , it was April 1st of 2020

35:32

. And so that was at the very

35:34

beginning of the pandemic . I had my

35:36

second grader who was home doing remote learning

35:38

, and then my other two children

35:40

were pulled out of daycare . So I had the three kids at

35:42

home . There were seven , four and two . At the time

35:44

It was April 1st April

35:46

Fool's Day , because the universe loved that And

35:49

I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer

35:51

. So I had two

35:54

companies because I had my CPA practice . I

35:56

already started right , first

35:58

at AuditMiner , and then I had the three kids at home and

36:00

my husband was working . I

36:03

haven't even mentioned this before , but the month before my

36:05

husband had surgery for a tumor that ended

36:07

up being benign , but he ended up getting

36:09

blood spots . They moved to his lungs . He

36:11

had a pulmonary embolism . Wow , at

36:13

call 911 , i was there at home with him taken

36:16

away by the ambulance . The kids saw they were coming home from school

36:18

. So all of this is going on in

36:21

February and March And

36:23

now the hospital and the ER couldn't

36:25

wash his on-cretches So it couldn't work . We were

36:27

a one-income family really . At that point He

36:29

was going back to work on Monday , march 29

36:32

. The night before was a Sunday

36:34

night . I got done working out . I was taking

36:36

off my sports bra And

36:39

I don't know why this happened to me , but I grabbed

36:41

my rest right here and it

36:43

felt like I was grabbing a cell phone . It

36:46

was that big and it was that hard . I'm like

36:48

what ? And so I go and I wake

36:50

my husband up and I'm like do you feel this ? It's

36:53

like , yeah , there's something there . Well

36:55

, he was going to work for the first time in five

36:57

weeks . The next day He couldn't stay home with

36:59

the kids . I had to . And

37:02

so I called my parents and we broke the seal

37:04

of don't give grandma and grandpa COVID because you'll kill

37:06

them , right . So I'm like I don't have

37:08

a choice . I need someone to watch my children . So

37:11

my parents come . We live about 30 miles away . They

37:13

come that morning at 8.30 AM . I

37:15

go into my primary care physician and she's like well

37:17

, i feel it , it's probably just dense

37:19

breast tissue . You don't have any breast cancer in your

37:21

family , but let's get a mammogram

37:23

. So I walk across the street literally

37:26

across the street to the hospital , Got my mammogram

37:28

And they said , well , there's something there

37:30

, let's do an ultrasound . So then I go back and do

37:32

an ultrasound And then the radiologist walks

37:34

in with a box of tissues And

37:36

she's like I do see something concerning . I'd like to

37:38

do a biopsy . Because of COVID We're

37:40

not really doing much right now . I can get you in 30

37:42

minutes . Typically it takes two to three weeks

37:44

to get in for a biopsy . I get in

37:47

for the biopsy , i go home

37:49

around noon and I'm like what the fuck

37:51

is happening to my life right now ? And

37:54

so over the next two days I tell the people close

37:56

to me this is what's happening in every single person

37:58

and I'm still mad about it . Every

38:00

single person is like oh , it's nothing . 99%

38:03

of the time it's just dead stress issue

38:05

. You don't worry about it . Why do you think people

38:07

do that ? Keep a positive attitude

38:09

? I don't know . They want to be nice and they want to help

38:11

you and they don't want you to worry , but it's like impossible

38:14

. So it was Wednesday

38:16

, april 1st at 1230 that I got a phone call

38:18

And I remember I was sitting at my computer

38:20

like this talking to them . My daughter is at

38:22

the kitchen table doing her homework and my husband

38:24

just got home because we decided he'd work half days

38:26

and I'd work half days so we each could work . And

38:29

I'm taking notes and I get off

38:31

the phone and I go into the bathroom and I just tell my

38:34

husband to come here and he

38:36

comes in and he knew it wasn't

38:38

good by the look on my face And I remember

38:40

I just dropped the floor crying

38:42

and he dropped to the floor

38:44

with me and just hugged me and I remember I was just

38:46

I don't think I've ever cried like that , like

38:49

I threw up the toilet . I'm like why

38:51

is this happening to me ? What is this ? What

38:54

is my life going to look like ? I'm not shut up for

38:56

this financially , care

38:58

COVID , my businesses , i can't

39:00

do it . That's how that happens . And

39:03

a week later I had a friend reach

39:05

out to me that had had thyroid cancer

39:07

earlier in her life And she said

39:09

a quote that I think you

39:12

might understand is that the difference

39:14

between hardship and

39:16

adventure is perspective . And

39:19

I was kind of like , yeah , it is like

39:22

people could already say I've been

39:24

through hardship in my life . I've never been through anything

39:26

like this . I was so scared , i didn't know what it

39:28

would look like , but we turned every little bit of it into

39:30

an adventure that we could . So 24

39:32

days later I was going to start chemo and

39:35

I was terrified . And the night

39:37

before , to turn it into an adventure , we

39:39

had a headshaving pizza party .

39:41

Oh my gosh . It was like consciously

39:43

turning it into an adventure which is beautiful

39:45

.

39:46

Yeah , because it was scared of shit . My

39:49

kids were watching , yeah

39:51

, and what do I want my kids to see ? And

39:53

so we ordered a bunch of pizzas and my family

39:55

, my little bubble , was inside of my garage and my children

39:58

helped shave my head with my husband And

40:00

then outside of the garage where , like , my neighbors and

40:02

friends came but couldn't come by me because of COVID

40:05

, and so they were outside of the garage eating

40:07

their pizza And we had a headshaving pizza

40:09

party and we recorded it And it's honestly

40:11

, one of my favorite videos of all time

40:13

. When I watch it I still cry , but the joy

40:15

inside of me . We turned something really bad into

40:18

something that my kids had fun with

40:20

and saw . Mommy be brave . Yeah

40:23

, i guess that's been my life ever since

40:26

. I'm going to give you a tattoo right here with

40:28

that quote . I still live my life

40:30

by it . It's a hardship , or I can look

40:32

at it as an adventure and I capitalize this

40:34

shit out of cancer , my story

40:36

, building a community , public speaking . If

40:38

there is anything good that can come from this , i

40:40

am absolutely going to be right on top of that and

40:42

take it in and not feel sorry about it

40:44

because that shit sucks , and you were

40:46

building your business at the same time

40:49

. Yes , yes , i

40:52

don't want to sound like a superhero because Either way . Yeah

40:54

, my parents ended up raising my children during the 20s . One

40:56

because I was too sick to take care of them and we didn't

40:58

have any care for them . So my parents

41:00

raised them Monday through Friday and they brought them home one

41:02

or two hours a week , if I felt okay , and

41:05

then they came home on the weekends when my husband was home . I

41:07

would have a week when I was really sick and then I would have a week

41:09

where I could maybe work four hours a day , maybe

41:11

two . I worked about five to 10 hours a

41:13

week during COVID , i would say , with breast cancer

41:15

. So I would take my laptop

41:18

to the infusion center . I had to go by myself

41:20

because no one was allowed with COVID . So I would

41:22

spend eight to 10 hours at the infusion center

41:24

with my laptop and I literally was

41:26

just prospecting who might buy AuditMiner

41:28

like docking people

41:31

online And by the end of treatment

41:33

six months later , the hard

41:35

chemo I had a list of about 1200 people

41:37

that I wanted to reach out to .

41:39

Do you feel like being tapped into

41:41

, like your future and a vision

41:43

Because I can't even file them being

41:46

alone during that time and going through

41:48

what you're going through , but to use that time towards

41:50

something you're creating for

41:52

your future on the other side of this

41:54

, that's not how it resonated in my mind

41:57

.

41:57

It was like just what's the next step ? one foot

41:59

in front of the other . I wasn't thinking big picture . If

42:01

I was thinking big picture , i wouldn't have done it . I would

42:03

have been paralyzed with everything I needed

42:05

to do , and it was like this is

42:08

something I could do . I got to figure out who I'm going to eventually

42:10

sell this to . It's super boring . By

42:12

yourself getting chemo , you feel fine

42:14

, you feel sick a week later , but during the actual

42:16

infusion , when nobody wants to talk to you

42:18

because they don't want to bother you , when you're getting chemo

42:21

, you're so bored You're

42:23

just sitting there having to go into your body that

42:25

you can't feel . And so I was like what's

42:27

the next step that I can do to occupy

42:29

my brain ? And so half of it was prospecting , half

42:32

of it was watching mindless shows on Netflix

42:34

. People are like , oh , design

42:36

your dreams and stuff , but be careful , because you're

42:38

going to scare yourself . What is the

42:40

next logical thing that makes sense on this

42:42

journey ? And just focus on that . And then

42:44

, once you get that finish , you'll do the next thing . And

42:46

that's kind of how I built the business

42:49

one step at a time .

42:51

Can you share what was

42:53

going on emotionally for

42:55

you through that ? I know it must have been a million

42:57

things .

42:58

Anchor Sadness

43:01

. I was very scared

43:03

. I did a blog where

43:05

I could get a lot of the feelings out , but a lot of it

43:07

was me thinking if I need to record videos for

43:09

my children , do they want them to

43:11

have one video every year for their birthday ? Is

43:14

it just one big video about how they make me feel

43:16

and my hopes for that ? It was a lot about what do

43:18

I want to do for my children so

43:20

they can remember me if I die

43:22

.

43:23

And how does thinking that way , or being forced

43:25

to think that way , change how

43:28

you experience life ?

43:30

It made me not feel bad about screen time

43:32

. It

43:34

made me realize that quality

43:36

over quantity is key and that my

43:39

children were so young that they were

43:41

not going to remember the things that I did

43:43

with them . I know they were seven , four and two . They

43:45

are not going to remember the things I did with them , but

43:48

I did feel like they were going to remember

43:50

the way I made them feel , the things

43:52

I did with them . I couldn't do

43:54

it for long periods of time , but it had

43:56

to be at my full attention And

43:59

so even today , like my daughter and

44:01

I , maybe three or four times a week , were reading

44:03

the Percy Jackson series . He has dyslexia

44:05

, he has ADHD , he has a lot of the things

44:07

, but it makes him the superstar in

44:09

the world he lives in and my daughter can relate

44:11

to that . And so we read the book

44:14

together , just me and her in a room , and

44:16

then my son , like when I take him to soccer practice

44:18

mommy , are you going to stay and watch me ? You bet

44:20

I'll watch you , buddy instead of going to shopping

44:23

and are going back home , like it's the things

44:25

that they want me to do that I'm fully present

44:27

doing I'm not on my phone watching him play

44:29

soccer . So when he looks over at me , i wave and say good

44:31

job . So when I

44:33

do show up , i show it a

44:35

lot more , just not halfway . It's

44:38

not like yeah , i'll watch you play soccer and be on my phone

44:40

too . It's being more receptive . What

44:42

do they need me to do for them ?

44:45

This is such a valuable tool for every

44:47

human And , i know , for

44:49

moms . When you're trying to be in 10 places

44:51

at once , which I think most people do

44:53

anyway I know I've spoken to

44:55

several of my girlfriends about this who are also

44:57

moms We get caught in this quantity

44:59

over quality rat race and

45:01

it really is the opposite

45:03

of quality over quantity . And

45:06

to really be able to embrace that

45:08

so you're fully present for those moments

45:10

, is it seems like such a

45:12

simple thing , but it's not . Yeah .

45:17

And the other thing that I do is I outsource a lot

45:19

of stuff . So I found a stay-out-home

45:21

mom that just wanted a little bit of extra money , you know

45:23

, and I pay her . She comes over once a weekend

45:25

. She has all my laundry , She helps me

45:27

clean up the floor , do dishes , run

45:29

errands , do returns The stuff that

45:31

was just draining for me because it was

45:34

always on my mental to the list and I wasn't getting

45:36

it done because I still today do not have the energy

45:38

I had back then . I still take long

45:40

naps . So it's being

45:42

able to outsource things that

45:44

don't bring me joy . Like

45:46

I'm really big on that now . I still cook

45:49

. Cooking brings me joy . You know , taking

45:51

my kids to practice brings me joy . But

45:53

getting rid of the things finding in your

45:55

life that doesn't bring you joy and outsourcing

45:57

those are getting rid of them .

45:59

I'm so happy you said that . I

46:01

think a lot of people will give

46:03

themselves a lot of reasons or stories why

46:05

they have to do those things .

46:08

I operate my business that way too . So AuditMiner

46:10

it's just completely

46:13

exploded . I mean , it's beyond

46:16

my wildest dreams how successful AuditMiner is

46:18

. We have 13 employees . Everybody was hired

46:20

in 2022 . Off of customer

46:22

revenue , we do not have investment . People

46:24

actually buy the product and use it . It's great , but

46:27

within AuditMiner , i operate

46:29

it the same way . So what are the tasks

46:31

that don't bring me joy in AuditMiner

46:33

? and I hire someone for that

46:35

, and so I don't

46:38

spend more than 40 hours a week working and

46:40

I'm the CEO and founder . Most founders are

46:42

like 60 , 70 , 80 hours . I don't do

46:44

more than 40 .

46:45

What would you say for people who might

46:47

not feel they can afford to hire out

46:50

, that would even just be a

46:52

small step that they could take to start giving

46:54

up the things that are draining them , not feeling

46:56

good , not connecting them to their joy .

46:59

My first employee was a

47:02

retired paralegal who was my

47:04

aunt , just wanted

47:06

some extra hours and to help . But she didn't care how much

47:08

it paid her , just wanted something else

47:10

to do . And that was my first employee And

47:13

I gave her some of that work at 15

47:15

bucks an hour . That's

47:18

how I started it . If you don't have to start

47:20

big , she literally worked probably

47:22

two or three hours a week for them And it makes a

47:24

difference , but it was enough . It

47:26

made a difference because it freed my time up to

47:28

do stuff that was higher value more

47:31

return .

47:32

My dear friend Lindsay Murphy , if she makes fun of

47:34

me because she's like you would outsource your

47:36

whole life if you could , Because

47:38

I'm like , yeah , let's do it . But also

47:41

outsourcing might mean now this is

47:43

if you have a partner like hey , can

47:45

you take over the laundry , or

47:47

like if you invest

47:49

in your community where you live , we have

47:52

made our community like family , And that was

47:54

a big vision . I was like we're going

47:56

to have friends that are like family and we're

47:58

going to take care of each other's kids , So

48:00

we don't all have to hire babysitters

48:02

all the time . We can just say , hey

48:04

, I'd love a pile of children at my house

48:07

. Would you guys like to go out ? I would look at what are free

48:09

ways in which you can ask for help and

48:11

support . I know those are very specific

48:14

to people with kids and spouses and

48:16

Jess , I know you're in a different scenario . So

48:19

what are free ways that you

48:21

can get support ? Because it doesn't have

48:23

to cost you money .

48:24

And remembering that the thing that drains you

48:26

actually might give someone else joy . I

48:30

certainly could never imagine myself

48:32

as an accountant , and that's something that

48:34

you thrive at , so it's not

48:37

necessarily a burden for someone else , it can

48:39

actually be a source of joy for them , and

48:41

that everybody gets to do the things that

48:43

light them up and support

48:45

one another .

48:46

And we had a crash force in my

48:48

husband taking over responsibility with

48:50

cancer because he did everything . That was a big

48:52

crash force for him to realize the load that I

48:54

was carrying . He had to plan

48:56

my son's birthday party when he was a kindergartner

48:58

and he wrote out the invitations . He

49:01

booked a spa , he did all the RSVPs

49:03

and we go to the birthday party . and two

49:05

women came up to me separately and

49:07

they're like I thought he was a single dad , because

49:10

dad's don't plan birthday parties for the kid . The

49:12

women do I don't like that .

49:14

I don't like that .

49:15

And it was just like wow , they thought he was

49:17

a single dad . I just laughed

49:20

. I was like , yeah , my husband was awesome .

49:22

Can you tell us where you are now in this cancer

49:24

journey ?

49:25

Yeah , So I had a really

49:27

long cancer journey . I ended up doing 18 months

49:29

of chemo , i did a double mastectomy

49:31

, i had an additional surgery because it ain't clear

49:33

margins . I did 33 rounds of radiation

49:36

and then I entered a clinical trial in

49:39

Tampa Florida . So I've flown back and forth to Tampa

49:41

Florida way too many times over

49:43

the past two and a half years . It's for

49:45

a vaccine to prevent breast cancer , so

49:48

hopefully my girls , when they get to be 20 or 30 , can

49:50

take a vaccine and not have to deal with what I dealt with . but it's

49:52

a hard trial And

49:54

I've been doing that since 2021

49:56

. And I had my very last meeting

49:58

early March in Tampa and during

50:01

the physical of the okay , you're free , yeah

50:03

, you're done They found a lump

50:05

. So that wasn't really

50:08

March And so since March that

50:10

led to an ultrasound which was

50:12

like , yeah , there's something concerning , but

50:14

we don't want to hurt your implant , so let's do an MRI

50:17

, we have to do a biopsy because

50:19

it looks like it could be cancer . And then I had my

50:21

biopsy last Tuesday , where they

50:23

punctured my implant , got the tools

50:26

stuck in . It was a horrendous

50:28

experience . And then I found out

50:30

last Thursday that it's not

50:32

cancer , it's scar tissue And

50:34

so literally last Friday , one

50:36

of the best days of my life I

50:39

knew that I made it to three years cancer-free

50:41

and it worked

50:44

me . The past month and a half I was a wreck

50:46

. I didn't show up as a wreck , but inside

50:48

I was a wreck . Even starting the

50:50

dishes was hard . Starting anything was

50:52

hard , because what if I couldn't

50:54

finish it ? Congratulations

50:57

.

50:57

That's a huge deal , thank you

50:59

.

50:59

That's a huge deal . Yeah

51:02

, it is a huge deal . I know I went through that really fast

51:04

, but it feels like the past month and

51:06

a half has been a year long battle . I

51:08

just stress the toll , the space

51:10

that not knowing what your future looks like

51:12

physically .

51:14

You said you didn't show up like a wreck . Where

51:16

did you let yourself be

51:18

a wreck at all ? Or

51:20

how did you navigate that

51:22

, while trying to pretend that everything

51:25

was fine ?

51:26

There's definitely some retail therapy that I am guilty

51:28

of . I lie on

51:30

the Amazon or I do a lot of coffee

51:32

. It's when I feel that way I was working maybe

51:34

four , five hours a day . Any

51:37

other half the day I would just sit in bed and watch Netflix

51:39

and let myself be sad . when

51:41

I was by myself , i did not

51:43

show up erect to my kids . I did not show up erect

51:45

to my husband necessarily , although

51:47

he knew , because he definitely did a lot more bath

51:49

time and bedtime by himself and never made me feel guilty

51:51

. Workwise . I did

51:54

not show up as a wreck , necessarily , but

51:57

I wasn't being as productive as I

51:59

could have been . But I'm the block . I call

52:01

the shots . No one's going to question what I do necessarily

52:03

.

52:04

Sometimes , turning on Netflix and feeling

52:06

you're sad is courage

52:09

, is bravery . That's what

52:11

it looks like .

52:11

It's hard when you're there because you're like I feel

52:14

a lot of guilt about feeling like

52:16

this . and I feel a lot of guilt

52:18

because the dishes are piling up and the laundry

52:20

is dirty and my husband's going

52:22

to come home and have to do so much work and I'm just

52:24

sitting on the couch vegging . But

52:27

I also know that if I give myself this

52:29

day , i'm going to wake up tomorrow

52:31

and feel better , and so , while

52:33

it hurts me to do it , i still

52:36

do it , knowing that it's temporary

52:38

.

52:39

What have been the lessons

52:41

, or even the gifts , of

52:44

your journey ?

52:50

I never say anything as a gift from cancer . I

52:53

don't like it when I talk like that because

52:55

it's not . I don't know

52:57

, it's just a thing like . Cancer is no gift

52:59

. There's nothing good about it . I

53:01

know what you're saying and I don't know how to phrase it . Anyway

53:04

, what are the things that came out of cancer

53:06

that I'm grateful for And

53:08

I don't even like that ? It's this weird thing that I haven't figured

53:10

out yet . I'm still working through it . I have

53:12

new friends that I wouldn't

53:15

have had had I not had cancer , like

53:17

these very deep relationships of people that went

53:19

through it the same time I have . I appreciate

53:21

my husband a lot more

53:24

. I always appreciated him , i loved him , but

53:26

there's just like . I know that he's got me

53:28

. I know that he's not going

53:30

to make me feel guilty about not

53:32

helping with 50% of the household

53:35

because he does more than I do And

53:37

there's a lot of mom guilt with that , but

53:39

he doesn't make me feel that way . I'm

53:42

a lot closer with my sisters and my mom

53:44

and dad , i feel like because of

53:46

it . So I think the relationships really make

53:48

you a lot closer . I don't get stressed out as much because

53:51

of what's the worst thing that can happen . You're not dying

53:54

, and that's pretty bad , and

53:56

I've been there .

53:57

Everything else is kind of a walking part , yeah , and

53:59

I've also heard you talk about appreciating

54:02

your birthdays and appreciating

54:04

the gift of aging .

54:06

I actually get mad when people

54:08

talk about oh , i'm getting so old , i have

54:11

three goals , how can I

54:13

hide this ? And it upsets

54:15

me because I'm like don't you know how lucky you

54:17

are that you get to be that old and you don't have to worry

54:19

if you're going to be here next year ? I was in a spot

54:21

where I didn't know if I would make it to 40-year-old and

54:24

diagnose it 37 . And

54:26

I will happily take on all those wrinkles

54:29

and gray hairs , because

54:31

what's the other option ? And

54:33

is it really ? We all age

54:35

, it cares . I have fake nipples now

54:37

, but for the longest time I didn't even have nipples . I had

54:39

my boobs amputated and I use the word amputated

54:42

because that's what it feels like . And so

54:44

physically I don't

54:46

feel like I did before cancer

54:48

and I know I don't look

54:50

the same either , but that doesn't bother me because

54:52

I know that the people don't love me for the way that I

54:54

look .

54:55

Hmm , so big Kel .

54:58

Because they loved me when I was so bad

55:00

you know what I mean And like

55:02

they didn't scare me anymore , because

55:04

the people that you truly want in your corner

55:06

do not care what you look like .

55:08

So much of what we do is in order to belong and in order

55:10

to feel loved , and society trains

55:13

us that if we look a certain way , then we're more

55:15

lovable or we're more valuable , and

55:17

I think it's just really really

55:20

valuable . What your lived experience is that they

55:22

love who you are , not how you look

55:24

. They don't give a shit if you have nipples or not

55:26

, if your head's bald or if you have long hair , if

55:28

you're 60 pounds overweight or

55:31

you're a size four , they're going to be on your

55:33

court no matter what .

55:35

Yeah , i mean , my eyebrows didn't grow back . I don't

55:37

have eyebrows anymore .

55:38

And they're pretty light to begin with , you know not

55:42

existing .

55:43

Like everything I do , i do it for me . If I want

55:45

to feel a certain way in the morning , that's when I

55:47

put makeup on and dress up . If I don't

55:49

feel like that , i don't put makeup on and dress up . It's

55:51

not something I have to do every day , it's just is

55:53

that day do I feel

55:55

like doing it ? Does it bring me joy that

55:57

day to spend the time on myself ? And

55:59

the other days I'm like no , i'm good with no shower and putting

56:01

a cap on because I just don't feel

56:04

like doing it .

56:05

And that's okay . You mentioned earlier

56:07

that you got the nipple tattoo and there was a reason behind

56:09

that . Do you want to share that ?

56:11

When you don't have nipple , you

56:13

look at yourself and you reminded

56:15

that you had breast cancer . And

56:18

so when I got these like fake nipple temporary

56:20

tattoos and I wore them for a few months and I was

56:22

always tech mo in my other girlfriend What

56:24

do you mean fake nipple ? And I found

56:27

myself not looking

56:29

at my scar , not

56:32

looking at my chest . It was at

56:34

a double stage And so I

56:36

got the first round of nipple tattoos but then I

56:38

postponed the second round because I was like , well , i might

56:40

have cancer , i might have to get my nipples removed

56:42

anyway , because they have to take the implants

56:44

and everything now too . So I still have one more

56:47

treatment to do . But that's why

56:49

I got the nipple tattoos is so I

56:51

don't do a double taken . I'm not reminded

56:53

of cancer all the time Like I'm pretty

56:56

. I do not like cancer . I'm mad at it still . I'm

56:58

sure one day it'll be different , but I just

57:00

feel like it took so much away from me and

57:03

it was not as an experience . I'm

57:05

not a big , pink , raw person . I

57:07

don't like going to the fundraisers . I

57:10

don't do the community events . People

57:12

have said , hey , this person has cancer , can I introduce

57:15

you to them ? And I've actually said you know

57:17

, right now it's not good for me , i don't have

57:19

it in me to feel the pain for them , that

57:22

I'm going to talk to them . So

57:25

I think one day it'll be better

57:27

, but right now , like I'm not a happy cancer person

57:29

, i'm a happy person and

57:31

, yeah , i'd be cancer , but I'm still mad

57:34

at it .

57:35

Are there happy cancer people ? Because

57:38

I think that rage is so valid

57:40

.

57:41

It's different for everybody . Yeah , i

57:43

think some people enjoy the community they

57:45

have afterwards because they

57:47

struggle with different things after cancers . Everybody

57:50

struggles with different things , whether it's physical , mental

57:53

, emotional , and you

57:55

just find a way and you find

57:57

a community . And for me , the community is

57:59

the CEO entrepreneurship , where

58:02

people see me as badass because they built this company

58:04

while navigating cancer And

58:06

I'm kind of like the hell , yeah , that's

58:08

where I live . Other

58:10

people might still really be sad and depressed

58:12

and scared and they are

58:15

with people in that community that help them

58:17

deal with that . But that's

58:19

not where I can be because it just takes too

58:21

much out of me .

58:22

Can we talk about your life now ? You

58:25

were starting this business and

58:27

going through your cancer journey at the same time , with

58:29

so much courage and resiliency

58:31

, and now you have this extraordinarily

58:34

successful company . So

58:36

can we celebrate what life is now

58:38

?

58:38

You know , a lot of now is my husband and I dreaming

58:41

about what we want to do when I sell AuditMiner

58:43

eventually or a ridiculous

58:46

amount of life-changing money . We

58:48

dream a lot , you know , like we want Airbnb . It's

58:50

how all of our friends and family can enjoy them all over the country

58:53

, and we want to stay in our house because

58:55

we love our school district and the neighbors . Knowing

58:57

that I'm more than likely going to have to swim

58:59

full of money , we live differently now . I

59:02

never used to buy used cars , but I had to

59:04

recently get a new car . Except for a bad car accident , i'm

59:06

fine . Thank God Kids were not with me . I

59:09

bought a used car with 85,000

59:11

miles . Never would have done that before , but

59:13

I have this security that the future is going to be okay

59:15

and like I don't need to impress anybody

59:18

. For a long time

59:20

, the finances were impressing other people and

59:22

maybe it's cancer , but I'm going to be okay

59:24

in the future . I'm very big about living

59:27

within our means right now and

59:29

it brings me joy to

59:31

be like hell . Yeah , i bought a used car and I love

59:33

it . I should use for my kids at

59:35

the consignment store and for myself . I shop

59:37

at Goodwill for my clothes a lot , so

59:39

I've got to have the

59:42

fashion and all the waste . I

59:44

am so happy now that I would go through

59:46

breast cancer treatment again before

59:48

going back to my life when I worked for

59:50

somebody else . Wow , i've

59:52

vocalized how much I hate cancer , but

59:55

I'm happier now exponentially

59:58

than I was back then .

1:00:01

That sounds like what you're doing . to simplify

1:00:03

it , to like a sentence , is you're living

1:00:05

in full alignment with your values And

1:00:09

there's no price you can put on that

1:00:11

. And when you spoke in another interview

1:00:13

about what's next because you're going to sell Audit Minor

1:00:16

and you're going to be incredibly financially

1:00:18

rewarded for that and

1:00:21

the way in which you spoke about it , i'd love for you to just share

1:00:23

how you're considering that decision

1:00:25

. What are the considerations around when

1:00:27

you sell , who you sell it to ? what

1:00:30

is that ?

1:00:31

Yeah , i would say that it's probably different for

1:00:33

me than a lot of other entrepreneurs , but there

1:00:36

is a chance that I might not be here when I'm

1:00:38

65 to retire . That's

1:00:40

a possibility . And I want to

1:00:42

sell Audit Minor earlier and have

1:00:44

that life-changing amount of money and live my retirement

1:00:47

now with my family , when I

1:00:49

can , and enjoy the money

1:00:51

and the experiences and the freedom

1:00:53

that it's going to provide , because

1:00:56

I might not be here when I'm 65 to enjoy

1:00:58

it . And so a lot

1:01:00

of people are like , wow , your company is doing so

1:01:02

well , why do you want to sell it so early when you can

1:01:04

make 100 million in 15 years versus

1:01:07

maybe just 20 to 30 million

1:01:09

today ? And it's like , well , what's

1:01:12

15 million more in the grand scheme of

1:01:14

things , when you're already making 15

1:01:16

million ? Like , what additional benefit

1:01:19

is that truly going to provide you

1:01:21

? And so for me , it's selling it to

1:01:23

experience the

1:01:25

gifts that financial freedom

1:01:27

and independence will give me with my family

1:01:29

.

1:01:30

I know that we are going to have a long juicy

1:01:32

episode here And I just would

1:01:34

love to let you know my takeaways

1:01:37

from this conversation , because

1:01:40

I feel really , really touched And

1:01:43

there's so many pieces of your story that

1:01:45

have touched me . I see

1:01:47

really honoring your truth

1:01:50

like living in

1:01:52

your authenticity , no matter who

1:01:54

likes it or doesn't like it . Putting

1:01:57

yourself in the spaces and the environments

1:02:00

where you meet your people and the people

1:02:02

who do see you and support you

1:02:04

. The courage to

1:02:06

identify what

1:02:09

isn't serving you in your life or

1:02:11

where you feel drained

1:02:13

or out of alignment , and having the courage to

1:02:15

take the risk to get yourself

1:02:17

into a place of joy

1:02:20

. I see the

1:02:22

deep resiliency

1:02:25

to meet

1:02:27

what life is bringing you and

1:02:29

find the adventure in it , even

1:02:32

when it is unbelievably

1:02:34

hard and

1:02:36

impossible and feels so

1:02:39

cruel . I see really

1:02:42

learning how to be present

1:02:44

and treasure the gift

1:02:46

that life is in

1:02:48

the moment you're in it , and not waiting

1:02:50

for some future time to live , understanding

1:02:54

that life is here and now

1:02:56

That's kind of how we got . We

1:02:59

just don't know And to stop

1:03:01

living in our stories about all the worst

1:03:03

case scenarios that we actually can't control

1:03:05

, and actually live in what we can

1:03:08

control , which is show up presently with our

1:03:10

loved ones . Choose what you

1:03:12

do with your time in a conscious , present

1:03:15

way . Choose

1:03:17

what actually matters

1:03:19

and be grateful for all of

1:03:21

it . I feel like there's so many things I didn't say , but there's

1:03:23

so much I'm taking from this

1:03:25

.

1:03:26

And you guys are all about authenticity And I will say that

1:03:28

the hardest part of being

1:03:30

authentic is when

1:03:33

nobody else is doing it the way that you want to do it

1:03:35

, because it can be lonely . But

1:03:37

even as a CEO , there are things that I do for the

1:03:39

company and things that I share that people are like you shouldn't

1:03:41

do that , you shouldn't , don't let your employees know

1:03:43

about that , and I'm like what do I have to

1:03:45

?

1:03:45

hide . But isn't that the only way to do it

1:03:48

? Because if you're actually following

1:03:50

someone else's script , you're not living authentically

1:03:52

. So to walk your own path

1:03:55

is to walk alone

1:03:57

through the unknown and

1:04:00

figure it out as we go .

1:04:02

And it's harder to just mute the other voices when you

1:04:04

do it . That's the hardest part .

1:04:06

It's like everyone has their how you should do

1:04:08

your life , who you should be like , how you should be a

1:04:10

leader , what you should say , what you shouldn't say , what you

1:04:12

should wear , what you shouldn't wear , how many

1:04:14

hours you should work , who's supposed to take care

1:04:17

of your kids blah , blah , blah . Everyone

1:04:19

has all these fucking opinions . We all have

1:04:21

them , and I think it's the hardest

1:04:24

, one of the hardest things to show

1:04:26

up anyway , even when you're met

1:04:28

with a lot of resistance .

1:04:30

It's like a lot of my life . It's just summing up

1:04:32

, it's just soldierizing and jump .

1:04:34

And another big one for me was to trust

1:04:37

your weird , ridiculous ideas , which

1:04:39

is so important . It's so important to

1:04:41

trust yourself that much , to trust

1:04:43

your weird ideas and find the partnership and

1:04:45

the support that also believes

1:04:47

in you .

1:04:48

It'll be really weird . You'll

1:04:50

cultivate it , it will become normalized

1:04:52

. You'll figure it out .

1:04:53

Kelly , I love you And that interview really

1:04:55

rocked my world . And even if I

1:04:58

didn't know you , I think I would still feel that

1:05:00

way , Like I just I really do

1:05:02

. I didn't know you and I feel that way . I

1:05:04

just think that you are one

1:05:07

of the greatest people to walk on this earth . Oh

1:05:09

, my God , i'm a puddle , like every

1:05:12

word out of your mouth was so valuable

1:05:14

. Everything that you've

1:05:17

stood for and the pain that you've

1:05:19

walked through and the risks

1:05:21

that you've taken and the way in which

1:05:23

you live your life It's a model

1:05:26

for how people want to live . It really

1:05:28

is , and you had to go through some serious shit

1:05:30

to be able to live the way in

1:05:32

which you live . But you were also kind

1:05:34

of living that way before . It just amplified

1:05:37

who you already were . Ask

1:05:39

yourself to find the joy to be present

1:05:41

for the things that matter . I mean , just that was such a

1:05:43

beautiful summary And I feel like you really

1:05:45

see her . It's what everyone

1:05:48

is craving . It is like every woman

1:05:50

that comes to me for coaching or in my community

1:05:52

or the people in my life . So much of what

1:05:54

you said is what they're craving of , how

1:05:56

they want to show up in their life And I know you

1:05:58

don't really want to get breast cancer again

1:06:00

to not be that person , but to be that

1:06:02

much of a stand for how you're living

1:06:04

your life now Like that's a big stand

1:06:07

, for I will not abandon myself . I will

1:06:09

not abandon my values at

1:06:11

all And this is actually what I would even say

1:06:13

that the cost is because

1:06:15

it cups you your life anyway . Yeah

1:06:18

, yeah . It does Well . I love

1:06:20

you . I'm so grateful you're here .

1:06:22

I'm so sorry for what

1:06:25

you had to endure and what you've had to live

1:06:27

through . I'm in awe of your courage

1:06:29

. I'm really grateful for the

1:06:31

vulnerability in which you've shared

1:06:33

your story , and I

1:06:36

think it's bullshit cancer

1:06:38

is bullshit and it's bullshit that it happened

1:06:40

to you . But thank you for sharing

1:06:42

the wisdom that you have

1:06:44

, and I just know for sure

1:06:47

that so many people are going to be really

1:06:49

moved and changed by this , so

1:06:52

thank you for being with us today . Hey

1:07:03

there , rebels , if you enjoyed this podcast

1:07:06

, we would love your support in a few quick ways

1:07:08

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1:07:12

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1:07:14

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1:07:17

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1:07:19

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1:07:21

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1:07:23

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1:07:26

to us and we can't wait to continue this

1:07:28

journey together .