0:02

To even question what you've

0:04

been told is true is incredibly courageous

0:07

. It doesn't always feel like courage

0:09

. What looks like courage to other people , for

0:11

me it feels like survival . This

0:14

is our personal medicine . If I'm surrounded

0:16

by thinkers , by lovers , by

0:18

passion , by integrity , then I really

0:20

do think that I know who I am . There is a piece

0:22

that is indescribable when you're

0:24

being who you are and you're living your purpose

0:26

, i'm going to come to the end of my life and be like I

0:28

didn't live the life I was meant to live .

0:31

Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and

0:33

so comfortable in that uncertainty

0:35

that every version of it is going

0:37

to be okay ?

0:39

This is the Inner Rebel podcast

0:41

.

0:50

I am actually feeling a little bit nervous today

0:52

because this is the first guest , who

0:55

is a stranger , that I stalked on

0:57

Instagram and actually approached him

1:00

to be on our show . Kevin

1:02

Benavidez from the Canvas Within

1:04

. He is a transformational coach

1:06

who helps men mindfully master

1:08

their mind and emotions , align with

1:10

their purpose and step into their full potential

1:13

so that they can become better husbands and

1:15

fathers and leaders . Why

1:18

this feels really significant

1:20

to me ? obviously , I am not

1:22

a man , but I want

1:24

to thank you for what you have done for me to

1:27

help me understand and reframe

1:29

experiences that I've had

1:32

with men in my life . I

1:34

think a lot of what you share

1:36

is actually very universal , but you are very

1:38

specific in naming things that I don't think

1:40

a lot of people are naming and calling out

1:42

a specific kind of culture

1:44

that I think harms both men

1:47

and women . I'm very

1:49

excited to talk about your work , the work that you

1:51

do , and also get to know you . We

1:53

usually start off with a question

1:55

that you're allowed to answer any way that you

1:58

want .

1:58

For sure .

1:59

Who are you today , and how

2:02

is that different from who

2:04

you thought you were supposed to be ?

2:07

Interesting . I'm a human being

2:09

that is currently

2:11

playing the role of husband

2:13

, father , transformational coach

2:16

, son , brother , who

2:18

is living life more authentically

2:20

than ever before , with potentially more

2:22

to go in the sense of more

2:24

authenticity to come through compared

2:27

to who I was in the past

2:29

. I was who

2:31

the world told me to be , who my family

2:33

told me to be , who I

2:35

needed to be to survive . None of that

2:37

is necessarily good or bad . It

2:39

is what it is . I think

2:41

that a lot of us , we just fall suit with what

2:44

we see . Well , mom and dad , the family , tells

2:46

us what the culture tells us , what

2:48

our friends tell us , and we just live

2:50

that life , and I think that's the life I was

2:52

living , which is , again , not a bad thing . My

2:55

wife came in . That My first two kids came

2:57

in , that I started cultivating a

2:59

life that was beautiful and

3:01

, at the same time , not really living

3:03

fully , because I was hiding

3:06

behind my people pleasing and

3:08

codependent ways .

3:10

What were the things you were told you

3:13

should be , or what did you believe you should be

3:15

?

3:16

Go to school , get an education

3:18

, be nice , right , don't

3:20

piss people off , don't upset people , don't say

3:22

things you're not supposed to say , stay in line

3:24

. I don't know if I was told anything , it

3:27

was more so what I felt like

3:29

I needed to do to help me live

3:32

. We're unconscious of the thing that we're unconscious

3:34

of until we do the work on

3:36

ourselves . Right At that time

3:38

, i'm just doing what I thought I

3:40

needed and wanted to do . I just follow

3:42

an easy path in a way Go

3:44

to school , get an education , get that nine to five

3:46

job , check all those boxes right . It's

3:49

a normal , i think , societal thing that

3:51

we have . If I was freer to

3:53

choose a different path , would

3:55

I have chosen a different path ? I think so . I

3:57

think I wouldn't even gone to college At the time

4:00

. I wanted to do

4:02

carpentry . And my mom's like nope , you got

4:04

to finish your education . I'm like , okay , i

4:06

go back and I finish my education , got

4:09

my degree in graphic design . At the time There

4:11

comes a point in our life where , especially

4:14

a people pleaser , a codependent person , you wake

4:16

up to is this the life

4:18

that I want ? Am I doing what I want to

4:20

do Because I've been doing what everybody

4:22

else has wanted or what I felt like I needed to do

4:24

to keep everyone happy , right .

4:26

Tell us about 2013 , because

4:28

there was a moment in 2013

4:31

where something changed in you .

4:33

Yeah , 2013, . So 10 years now . In

4:35

the springtime , my dad got really

4:37

sick . I went into hospital . We thought he was going to

4:39

pass . I thought he was going to pass . I didn't think he was going

4:41

to make it through his health condition when he was

4:43

dealing with . So in that moment

4:45

, a lot of things came up for me Anxiety

4:48

, which I was always living with . I just didn't know what it was

4:50

. Anxiety skyrocketed to the point where

4:52

I was having anxiety attacks multiple

4:55

times a week . Depression came with that

4:57

, and a bunch of things from

4:59

my childhood that I stuffed down and repressed

5:01

I didn't purposely want to stuff it down

5:03

, but it would just push down came to the surface

5:06

when I was like , oh , i'm going to lose my dad . I

5:08

started grieving his death , even

5:10

though he didn't die and he's still alive , he's still

5:13

around , but all that . I

5:15

call it a mental and emotional shit storm that I

5:17

was in for like six months . So

5:19

all this stuff came to the surface and it was

5:21

like I have to do something about this

5:23

, because it was really tough . That

5:26

was what started the journey for me . So

5:29

, six months of hell I would say

5:31

A few months in , i started getting some

5:33

support through a mental health counselor , which was

5:35

good , and then one of the things that I was like putting on the

5:37

band aid and a week later the band would fall

5:40

off Almost from the get go . This guy was telling me I

5:42

think you should learn mindfulness . I'm

5:44

like , what the hell is that ? No , no , i'm

5:46

good , thanks , i just want to stick with you

5:48

. And almost every session he would

5:50

say , like I think you should learn mindfulness . And then finally

5:52

, about six months into this whole journey , it was in

5:54

September of 2013,

5:56

. I was at like my breaking point

5:58

. By that time I had a heart monitor strapped

6:00

on to me because I was having heart

6:03

palpitations , because the anxiety was so strong

6:05

I literally thought I was going to die . I

6:07

was at that point where , like , either death or

6:09

something drastically different has

6:11

to happen . And so same thing went back

6:14

to see him and he's like you should

6:16

try mindfulness . And I'm like you know what

6:18

I should . And that was

6:20

the interesting part . I opened myself up

6:22

to that because I was at that breaking

6:24

point where something had to change right

6:26

. So I reached out to this person

6:28

who I knew , knew mindfulness

6:31

and taught mindfulness and other things , and

6:33

I started to meet with him on a weekly , bi-weekly

6:35

basis . He opened up my

6:37

world to spirituality and

6:39

just started supporting me and understanding

6:41

my anxiety and understanding my relationship

6:44

to my dad , and that's when

6:46

everything started to change . Within

6:48

a month , my anxiety was way more manageable

6:51

than it ever was . I started to become really passionate

6:53

about growing , being better , personal

6:56

development , spirituality , all that stuff . I

6:58

just became passionate about it . I wanted to learn

7:00

about it . I was always reading , i was always watching videos

7:02

, i was implementing what I was learning And

7:05

so , by January 1st 2014

7:08

, i started the Canvas within . I

7:10

thought you know , i want to share this with the world Because right away , it was

7:12

like , if I can go through this in one month

7:14

and be so much better than anybody can

7:17

, i wanted to share it with people .

7:18

We like to take terms that our guests use and

7:20

make sure that our listeners really understand

7:22

. I know mindfulness is kind of a personal

7:25

growth 101 term , but I'd love for you to share

7:27

What does that mean to you And

7:29

what were some of the things that you were practicing

7:32

that really changed your life

7:34

? Cause I know I had decades

7:36

of anxiety , panic attacks . I very much relate

7:39

to your story And so I

7:41

think anything that we can give

7:43

. That gives people some relief .

7:45

I think mindfulness as a way of being able

7:47

to bring my awareness , my attention

7:49

, to the present moment , and we can use that

7:51

doing different things , like I can look

7:53

and say , oh , how many colors are in this room

7:55

or how many things are blocked . My mind

7:57

is focused on what's present in front of me , not

8:00

in the future or in the past . For me

8:02

, it was mindfulness of your breath

8:04

, which is the basic thing Our ability

8:06

to bring our awareness , our attention

8:08

, to one single thing , but that single

8:11

thing is in the present moment , and so

8:13

, instead of being in my head , what's going on inside

8:15

of me ? That's something that I developed afterwards

8:17

The mindfulness of my body , right , like being

8:20

aware of what's going on inside of me

8:22

in the moment . Yeah , that took years

8:25

to learn . That's really next level

8:27

. But then it's also during the day , checking

8:29

in with yourself , right ? I have an

8:31

alarm on my phone . Three times a day goes off

8:33

. When that alarm goes off , it's my

8:35

opportunity to pause , take

8:38

a couple of deep breaths and then ask

8:40

myself what is going on ? What am I thinking

8:42

, what am I feeling ? What do I need in

8:44

this moment ? Because we're busy , we're doing things

8:46

and we're so stuck in our head doing

8:48

, doing , doing . It's coming back to now

8:51

, even just that , that

8:53

moment of focus .

8:54

Well , i think another reason that we tend to move

8:56

into our heads is

8:59

we disassociate . We have

9:01

trauma , we have experiences that

9:03

we don't want to feel or we aren't given a safe

9:06

space to feel in the moment that that

9:08

incident or trauma or experience occurs

9:10

, right . So we start to bury

9:12

things , we repress things and we move up into

9:14

our minds and we move into the past and the future

9:17

, because if we actually get present , that is where

9:19

we actually have to be with it . So

9:21

, actually getting still and being present

9:23

and being in the moment , i think maybe we should

9:26

gently remind our listeners

9:28

that that is not an easy thing to do , because

9:31

it is in the stillness

9:33

that we then have to look at ourselves . I

9:35

agree totally agree . And

9:38

then you said , at least in what I've read about

9:40

you , that you then started to have all these discoveries

9:42

about why you were the

9:44

way that you were . Can you

9:46

share a couple of the discoveries

9:49

at that moment in time that really helped

9:52

trigger this transformation , this

9:54

new journey ? you went on .

9:55

The first and foremost was in

9:58

that September to November

10:00

period of 2013 . It

10:02

was the realization of

10:05

how much I lacked

10:07

from my dad growing up and

10:09

how that impacted me , and then

10:11

understanding what he was going through

10:14

, why he was the way he was . It

10:16

really liberated me a lot to see

10:19

that it's not my fault , it's not me What

10:22

we do very unconsciously , especially as kids right , we're

10:24

very egocentric . The world revolves around

10:27

us , so when mom and dad are

10:29

upset or when they're not giving us , it's because there must

10:31

be something wrong with me . It's my fault there

10:33

. This way , unconsciously

10:35

, that gets programmed into us . That was running me for

10:37

a very long time , until when I was 31

10:40

years old , and it was like wait

10:42

a second , oh , i'm not the reason why

10:44

X , y and Z , x , y and Z was happening . It's

10:47

because he had his own shit that he's

10:49

never dealt with And I have compassion

10:51

for that . Now It doesn't mean like it's

10:53

okay We're not saying it's okay what

10:55

they did , but it's just that understanding

10:58

to separate yourself and be like oh

11:00

, i totally get why you would

11:02

do this or not do this .

11:04

This , obviously , is something that men share having

11:06

some sort of father wounding And I'm

11:08

curious , what are men dealing with collectively

11:11

that ? you see , what are the common threads

11:13

that they're running up against as

11:15

they're on their own in our awakening

11:17

and personal growth journeys ?

11:19

I think it's mother wound , father

11:21

wound , but most of us have both of them right

11:23

. A big thing that's plaguing men is

11:26

living up to their

11:28

version of what they learn . It means to be

11:30

a man or moving away from

11:32

it , trying to be a certain type

11:34

of masculine man or trying

11:36

to not be like a certain type of masculine

11:39

man . That messes up a lot of

11:41

us because I think it's men . Women

11:43

doesn't matter gender , but especially for men

11:45

, we want to be men , right , like we don't want to be seen

11:47

as less of a man , and so we're

11:49

trying to go through life and

11:52

again check off all these boxes your

11:54

job , how much money you make , trying

11:56

to accomplish certain things , look

11:59

a certain way , sleep with more women . I

12:01

think at the core of it it's not just masculinity , it's the relationship

12:03

with themselves , and that's what I

12:05

really coach and support men with is the

12:07

relationship with themselves . What I

12:09

see is men who

12:12

are insecure , who don't feel worthy , who have

12:14

been hiding a lot of emotions or

12:16

not being able to be with certain emotions

12:19

. The nice guy doesn't

12:21

embody a lot of his masculine traits , which

12:23

stems to how he was raised and the

12:26

men he was around growing up .

12:28

I have a bit of a controversial opinion

12:30

and I'm open to debating

12:33

this , but I think I've come to

12:35

the understanding that a lot of what we consider

12:37

to be nice is

12:39

actually repression . It

12:42

actually isn't healthy and

12:44

it doesn't mean that we should be mean to each other . We

12:46

should be good to each other but , maybe we can define

12:48

niceness more clearly in

12:50

this case and why it has so

12:53

much potential to be toxic if

12:56

it's not authentic .

12:57

Yeah , and when I use the term nice guy , which is a term

12:59

created by Dr Robert Glover

13:02

, who wrote No More Mr Nice Guy , the

13:04

niceness that I'm talking about is

13:06

not authentic . It's fabricated

13:09

, it's forced . It doesn't

13:11

come from the heart , it's done in a way

13:13

to protect . I want to be kind from

13:15

my heart , because a lot of niceness

13:17

is I'm being nice , i'm

13:20

being polite and I'm being agreeable

13:22

so that you approve of me , you

13:24

validate me , you like me , you're

13:27

giving me something in return . I'm

13:29

not just doing this because that's what I actually

13:31

truly want from my heart . I'm doing

13:33

this because this is protecting me , This is supporting me , and

13:36

at the same time , you can

13:38

be kind and speak your truth

13:40

and have somebody upset at you , but that's coming from

13:43

my heart , not to hurt

13:45

you , but this is my truth . How you

13:47

receive it , that's up to you . But what

13:49

happens is , if we say this as

13:51

a people pleaser , we have the risk of that person

13:54

getting upset , and if that person gets upset , we're

13:56

no longer safe .

13:58

This people pleasing the

14:00

nice guy persona often

14:02

comes out of what you were speaking to before , about

14:05

how we learn very young

14:07

and are conditioned around our parents

14:09

and in society to learn what

14:11

gives us love and learn what makes us feel

14:14

safe and approved of . I think we're

14:16

all in the same boat to a certain degree . These

14:19

are defense mechanisms and trauma , behaviors

14:21

and patterns we're acting out throughout our lives that

14:23

are not intentional . So when you

14:25

become aware of it , what's

14:28

the next step ? Someone listening

14:30

going oh , I do this and men and women

14:32

both do this . What's the next step

14:34

?

14:35

Yeah , i think it's a simple

14:37

step of don't just look at the one thing that

14:39

you do . Now you're aware , oh , i agree

14:42

, when I'm actually disagreeing . Go deeper

14:44

, in the sense of what other ways do

14:46

I suppress myself , betray

14:48

myself in order to get love

14:50

, to be safe , to get that approval

14:52

, that validation ? what other ways that

14:55

really will open your eyes ? We

14:57

have to be aware , otherwise we're going through life unconsciously

15:00

Oh , i know , i do this one thing , but there's nothing

15:02

else over here . But there's so much over here . So

15:04

it's like opening yourself up to seeing , okay , this

15:06

is what I do . And at the same time , when

15:09

that happens , you're going to feel shitty , you're going to feel

15:11

shame because you're like , oh my gosh , i'm doing all this stuff . That's

15:13

horrible , natural to feel , but you don't have to hold on

15:15

to that . Just think about it . That's just the

15:18

way I was programmed . I didn't decide to be this

15:20

way Again because people , pleasing

15:22

is a developmental trauma . We didn't

15:24

choose to be this way . This is the result

15:26

of how we were raised and the way that we kept

15:28

ourselves safe and get our love and , like you were saying , so

15:30

, first and foremost , make sure that you

15:32

see all the ways in which you

15:34

are abandoning yourself , betraying yourself

15:37

, suppressing yourself . Then if I know

15:39

that I don't speak my truth at

15:41

work because I don't want my coworkers or boss

15:43

to get upset at me , then intentionally

15:46

go and speak your truth , even if

15:48

it's uncomfortable .

15:49

Can I ask you did you have access

15:52

to what your truth was at

15:55

the time that you came into this

15:57

self-discovery ? Did you know your

15:59

truth and you realized you had been repressing

16:02

it and abandoning yourself , Or was it actually a

16:04

journey of even discovering what

16:06

it is ?

16:07

Yeah , it was a journey . I didn't

16:09

realize the people pleasing part , the codependency

16:11

. About four years into my journey

16:14

, see it to the point

16:16

where you're saying , oh , i see it now . Oh

16:18

shit , what do I do ? right ? I didn't know people

16:20

pleasing codependency , nice guy , i didn't have in

16:22

terms . I didn't understand any of that . What

16:24

I did know was I'm always looking outside

16:26

of myself for love , for attention

16:29

. I'm always Hiding certain

16:31

things about me , like I feel afraid to share

16:33

certain things because I don't want people to get upset

16:35

, and I was tired of it . And

16:37

so , yes , it came with time . Right , it

16:40

wasn't just like I worked through my anxiety

16:42

, i worked through my father wound and all of

16:44

a sudden , i know this authentic self . It

16:46

started opening up to what was more true for

16:48

me , the way I wanted to live , what

16:50

I wanted to do with my life . But I was still hiding

16:53

myself . Right , i wasn't showing up fully

16:55

authentic . I am still in that journey to show

16:57

up fully authentic .

16:58

But yeah , i wasn't there right

17:00

away to answer your question yeah , that's

17:02

such a lifelong journey to and

17:04

To just to feel safe , because there's all the

17:07

layers used to chip away at like , oh

17:09

, it's okay If I say this , it's okay If I show

17:11

this , it's okay if I have this

17:13

hard conversation , if my parents

17:15

get mad at me because I Speak

17:17

up against something that I was raised to believe

17:20

and now I don't believe in it , and it's such an iterative

17:22

process . The thing that I

17:24

Have been feeling into so much lately

17:26

, and why I said in the beginning that I feel like this

17:28

is a really timely conversation , is

17:31

I Was at a retreat

17:33

recently . It was a sacred business

17:35

retreat and we talked a lot about our

17:37

partnerships and What

17:39

I see is a disproportionate

17:42

a massively disproportionate amount

17:44

of women Versus men

17:46

doing this inner work , and a

17:48

lot of times the women go first . So , like

17:50

100% of the women that I coach

17:52

that have partners are like cool

17:54

, how do I get my husband , how do I get my partner

17:57

to do this ? How do I find a man that is conscious

17:59

and aware ? and I Have

18:01

been working through this in my own marriage with my own

18:03

partner . So how do we make

18:06

it more approachable , or what do you think is

18:08

as a catalyst to get men to

18:10

want to do this work because they'll

18:13

feel more free . Right , it's not just the women

18:15

being like you got to be a different , better person . It's like

18:18

wanting it for themselves

18:20

so that they can show up in the ways in

18:22

which you're exemplifying . So what

18:24

do we do about this ? How do we get men more

18:26

interested in this work ?

18:28

Yeah , first and foremost , do not force

18:30

any man to do this work . And if you're a man

18:32

listening to this , don't do it because

18:34

your wife or your girlfriend said

18:36

you need to do this or Okay the relationship

18:39

and never work , because

18:41

what I'll end up happening is you're

18:43

not fully committed to it . I've

18:45

seen it so much with clients . I have to ask

18:47

them if I know that their wife or

18:49

girlfriend sent them my way . We

18:51

have a serious conversation about this , because

18:54

what will end up happening is you apply yourself

18:56

because you're like I have to do this to save my

18:59

relationship , but then it gets hard and

19:01

they weren't committed to the challenge of it and

19:03

then things start to fall apart and

19:05

then it's either blaming the partner or

19:08

even just blaming themselves , bringing them more

19:10

into their shame and Things

19:12

don't change . Or blaming the coach , or

19:14

blaming whoever's helping them , and nothing

19:16

happens , because it got too challenging for them And

19:18

they weren't really fully committed . So only

19:20

do the work because you want to for yourself

19:22

. Yes , you can want to improve your relationship

19:25

, to be a better father , all those things

19:27

, but at first and foremost , it's because you

19:29

want to do it because usually the catalyst , often

19:31

times , is their partner .

19:33

I'm in agreement with you , is like

19:35

their partners , like you got to do some work right

19:37

, but to go from the place of

19:39

yeah of somebody else wanting

19:41

it for you To you

19:44

wanting it for you . I know a

19:46

lot of times there is like a big traumatic moment

19:48

. That happens the same with men and women , or life . Something

19:50

gets so bad you have to hit

19:52

. But like , do we always have to hit rock bottom

19:54

before we start to give a shit about ourselves And

19:57

doing this work ?

19:58

It's a good question . I've asked that many

20:00

times to even myself . It's a common question

20:03

and , unfortunately , i think it is

20:05

almost rock bottom , but not rock bottom to the point

20:07

where , like , you're deeply depressed and you can't get

20:09

out of bed or you've lost everything

20:11

in your life , but there's a low

20:13

that you hit and then , because you're in that low

20:15

, then it's like okay , i want to

20:17

do this because I don't want to feel this again . I think

20:19

it really is some sort of rock bottom

20:22

that moves us forward . But , that

20:24

being said , how can we support more men ? is

20:26

having this out there more ? the more

20:28

Men are out there supporting other

20:30

men talking about this , making it normal

20:33

, then it's gonna be easier for us to

20:35

open up to this . That's why I feel

20:37

so passionate about my work , even just putting out

20:39

the content that I do , because we

20:41

have to normalize this , not just want

20:44

to work on ourselves so we can make more money . Right

20:46

, because a lot of guys do that . I want to build that

20:48

business and make more money , so I'm gonna

20:50

learn this trick and that trick and this hack

20:52

and that habit and all that stuff , but they're

20:54

not really doing the deeper work

20:56

on themselves . We've glorified

20:58

the hustle culture . What's more

21:00

important is men's work , your

21:02

inner work on yourself , and

21:04

it's just putting it out more and more . I think that's

21:07

gonna be really supportive and have

21:09

events programs

21:11

Where it's safe for a guy

21:13

to just dip his toe in . They

21:15

just want to check it out . They don't want to fully commit

21:17

. And then I know a lot of men who've done that . They'll

21:20

do it for a couple months , then they leave and then a year

21:22

later They're back in Until again

21:24

something really smacks them across the head

21:27

. Oh , i want to do this .

21:28

I don't blame men personally . I think there is a cultural

21:31

issue going on , and

21:33

I think part of it is that our

21:36

wounds actually get rewarded , a

21:38

lot of our trauma behaviors actually

21:40

get rewarded by society

21:42

, and so there isn't that much incentive

21:45

for men to actually

21:47

do this work , and

21:49

I think a lot of women have been

21:52

conditioned to keep the bar really low . I

21:54

think that we expect to

21:56

carry a lot of the emotional weight of a relationship

21:59

. When we see a man cry

22:01

or compliment his wife where they're a good father

22:03

, we glorify them . So what I

22:05

think should just be the standard

22:08

ends up being look

22:10

what he's doing , which is the basics

22:12

for a lot of the women that I know are doing

22:14

this work .

22:15

I definitely feel like way more

22:17

women doing the deeper work on themselves

22:20

than men . But , that being said , a lot more

22:22

men than ever before are doing this work . I

22:24

know because there are endless amounts that reach out

22:26

to me that interact with my content . I

22:29

see other coaches , other organizations

22:31

, tons of guys right , but there is that culture

22:34

that we get rewarded for behaving

22:36

certain ways . We just got to keep on moving

22:38

forward And again making this

22:40

more normal and

22:43

opening more men's eyes . That's

22:45

why I love challenging certain

22:47

men who feel like they're doing amazing

22:50

in life , which maybe they are . But I can

22:52

sense it . I can see it that they're

22:54

hurting . I can see it that they're not showing

22:56

up in their best . Their bar , like you

22:58

said , is very low And they're like , well , if

23:00

I just provide , if I just hustle , if I

23:02

just make money , if I just find that girl

23:04

, then I'm fine And I'm doing

23:07

great . Look , i have all this , but

23:09

yet you can see they're in security . You

23:11

can see that they're not healthy with their body

23:14

. So I love to

23:16

challenge men to open their self up

23:18

to the next level .

23:20

I'm curious what you think are the most

23:22

pervasive or damaging societal

23:25

narratives or wounds that

23:27

men are dealing with and having

23:29

to confront in themselves that make

23:31

it scary for them to enter

23:34

these spaces of healing .

23:35

I think it's wanting to live up to a certain

23:37

definition of what it means to be a man

23:39

or masculinity . I think that really

23:41

holds us back . I was guest speaking

23:44

in a men's group that deals

23:46

with addiction the other day And

23:48

this one gentleman said thank you for sharing . I

23:51

appreciate what you were saying . I've been going through life

23:53

thinking that I'm supposed to be stoic

23:55

. Guys think I'm supposed

23:57

to show no emotions . I'm good , i'm always good

23:59

, there's nothing wrong with me . But he's like wait

24:01

, what about when I am hurting ? What about when I am

24:03

challenged ? Now I can't speak

24:05

because I'm not supposed to speak

24:08

up , that I'm hurting , i'm

24:10

struggling because then I'm less

24:12

of a man . So if you're battling

24:14

that , you know what I mean . You're in a tough

24:16

spot .

24:17

Can you help us understand what

24:19

that programming is , what that

24:21

narrative of what it is to be man enough

24:24

is ?

24:25

Show no emotions . Boys don't cry

24:27

, right , that sort of thing . Suck it up . You got

24:29

to provide , provide , provide . I think it really

24:32

comes back to a suppression of

24:34

what's actually our

24:36

humanity , our humanity . Right

24:38

, doesn't matter what gender is being suppressed

24:40

our emotions , our feelings , our truth

24:42

, it's being stuffed down . That's

24:44

not supportive . And

24:47

I think another piece is I

24:49

think we've been so wounded , like emotionally

24:52

, psychologically , not

24:54

by just men , by men , by

24:56

women , just by life in general , and

24:58

because we've stuffed down our

25:00

truth and our pain , we have

25:02

to find ways to deal with that . So

25:04

if I'm feeling insecure , i don't

25:07

feel enough . Well , i'll feel enough

25:09

. If I sleep with more women , i'll

25:11

feel enough . If I climb the

25:13

ladder in the corporate world , i'll

25:16

be enough when I get that money

25:18

at anyone's expense . These

25:20

are all like the things that we see certain men do

25:22

, and women as well .

25:23

Yeah , it feels very similar . I'm

25:25

like we're all dealing with the same shit . It's just different levels

25:29

of it . Yeah , yeah

25:31

exactly .

25:32

But for the case of men , it's the fact

25:34

that we don't want to look at the reasons

25:36

why we're actually doing these things that are not good

25:38

for us , that are actually not supporting us . We

25:40

don't want to look at that stuff And , again

25:43

, that's the issue . It all comes back to

25:45

how we're hurting inside and

25:47

how we're feeling about ourselves . I think

25:49

that's what it really stems back to

25:52

. And , of course , we live in a culture where

25:54

how can I say men are bad

25:56

, right , Like let's just put it out there for

25:59

I don't know how many years or maybe decades

26:01

? it's like women are rising , which is great

26:03

, But we're also trying to make

26:05

men look like pieces of shits and

26:07

they're no good , Right , And they're the cause of all

26:09

the issues . And , yes , a lot of men cause

26:12

the issues . But if I'm perhaps

26:14

a teenager or in my 20s

26:16

, I'm getting all these messages And

26:19

it's like what the hell do I do ? Who do

26:21

I be ? Because if I'm this way

26:23

, then all these women are not going to like me

26:25

.

26:25

I know you're like stuck If .

26:27

I'm . if I'm not this way , then all the men are not

26:29

going to like me , right , like , yeah , you're , but I

26:31

think it's such an interesting thing .

26:32

You spoke to it And I always have to catch myself

26:35

too , cause I talk a lot about feminine energy . And it's

26:37

not the men , it's this toxic

26:39

masculinity , like the definition

26:41

of that which we all have in us , and it's

26:43

like where that's pervasive , it tends to be

26:46

the places where we're out of alignment

26:48

, right Anytime you swing the pendulum too far

26:50

in one direction or the other , and so it is

26:52

really like almost taking away the gender

26:54

of it and being like . it's these

26:56

expectations of the ways of being

26:59

that are the problem not

27:01

the person right . It's the way in which we're

27:03

conditioned , And I love free . We've talked

27:05

a lot about what the issues are And

27:08

I would like to talk about what's possible

27:11

, Cause I think that's the exciting

27:13

stuff . You're a living

27:15

example . You're a husband , you're a father

27:17

, you're a man . You're doing this work with a lot

27:20

of men . I would love for you to speak

27:22

into what has shifted in your life . How are

27:24

your relationships so much richer and

27:26

what is possible for men

27:28

in general through doing what

27:30

you're suggesting ? Who do they get to be

27:32

and how does it get to feel in their life ?

27:35

So there's two main things . I want to start with One

27:37

. I'm not perfect , I haven't gotten everything

27:39

right . I make a lot of mistakes , I

27:41

still hurt people , But the difference

27:44

is that I'll own up to it right away and

27:46

I'll try and work on that thing that I messed up . I

27:48

won't suppress it or push it away or pretend

27:50

it's not there , But what's on the other

27:52

side ? First thing that came to my

27:54

mind was more of a vision of lightness

27:56

, less burden , less heaviness

27:59

. A lot of us men carry a

28:01

lot of emotional burden , even

28:03

psychological , right , That inner critic inside

28:05

of us beating ourselves up when we make a mistake

28:08

. There's a heaviness inside of a

28:10

lot of us men that by

28:12

doing this work you start to let

28:14

go of . I use the analogy of like

28:16

a backpack with bricks in it And we have

28:18

like this huge backpack , maybe almost like this big

28:21

bag , And we're trying to go through

28:23

life with this bag and it's heavy as hell

28:25

. And when we're doing this work you

28:27

tackle one thing , you tackle one fear , you

28:29

process a certain emotion . The bricks

28:31

are just starting to come out and it's lighter

28:34

and lighter . Life feels more aligned

28:36

to me . I'm more

28:39

I don't know if the word is proud

28:41

of . But I'm grateful for the man

28:43

that I am for my kids , And

28:45

when I do see that I messed up something with my

28:47

kids , I'm like I'm sorry , I'm

28:49

going to own up to that . That was messed up , Like I

28:51

shouldn't have said that , I shouldn't have screamed that way

28:53

, And so I'm proud of the man that

28:55

I get to be for everyone in my life . On

28:58

the other side of this is freedom from

29:00

your vices And we all have

29:03

our own vices the things that we turn

29:05

to because we don't know how to deal

29:07

with what's going on inside of us or in

29:09

our life right now . Imagine a life where

29:11

you don't even have to think about the drink

29:13

or the drug or the sex or

29:16

the hustle , whatever the thing is

29:18

. It doesn't have control over you . You

29:20

have control over it .

29:22

I think what breaks my heart a little bit

29:24

is that we all want the same

29:26

thing to feel deep connection

29:28

and love and a sense of

29:30

belonging and be

29:33

vulnerable and have intimacy And

29:36

I really believe that it's just a lot

29:38

of pain and societal

29:40

conditioning and trauma in

29:42

the way that we aren't calling

29:45

out enough When we were

29:47

speaking to the frustration of women . I think

29:49

it's just that we want to be met . We

29:51

just want to be met emotionally , And the very thing that a

29:54

lot of men have been told is so unsafe to

29:56

be is the very thing that we

29:58

want .

29:59

For sure . They just don't know how to . They

30:01

don't feel safe and they don't know how to . You can't

30:03

hold space for your partner and her emotions

30:05

and what she's going through . If you've never held space for yours

30:07

, if you've never been with your emotion , that's

30:09

right . You're wanting that support with everything

30:12

that's moving through you , but this man cannot

30:14

give you that container to

30:16

be supported that way , because he's like

30:19

what do I do with this ? It's just

30:21

too uncomfortable . No , like you're good

30:23

, everything's going to be fine , and it's just dismissing

30:25

. What's your going through , right ? No

30:27

, we're saying that because I don't know how to deal with this . I

30:30

don't want to deal with this because if

30:32

you're feeling a certain way , you're dealing with something

30:34

. It's going to trigger something inside of me .

30:36

Yeah , yeah . Is

30:38

this why a lot of men go into fix it ? or I need to solve

30:41

your ?

30:41

one Yeah , because I can't be with your emotional

30:43

discomfort because of my emotional discomfort

30:45

And also I want to fix it Again . This is

30:47

a common thing for nice

30:50

guys , especially codependent men , is

30:52

I want to fix your problem because if

30:54

you're unhappy it's unsafe for

30:56

me And if you're unhappy then

30:59

you're not in the mood that I need you to be in

31:01

.

31:01

Yeah .

31:02

So that I get what I need from you . I need you

31:04

to be happy so that you can

31:06

compliment me , so you can be sexually available

31:09

, all these things . And so

31:11

if you have a problem or if you're not happy , i

31:13

got to change this as soon as I possibly can

31:15

, because my resource , where

31:17

I'm siphoning my self-worth and

31:20

my safeness , is cut off

31:22

now because you're not doing well . It's

31:25

a huge one . I still have to check myself right And

31:27

what I say to my wife now , like when

31:29

she needs support , i'm there , obviously , but

31:31

certain things before , where she's

31:33

complaining about something , i'll listen to her , but before I was

31:35

like do this , do that ? like trying

31:38

to help her solve the problem . All she wanted me

31:40

to do was just listen to her . And then sometimes

31:42

certain things happen and I'm like , yeah , you're a big

31:44

girl , you'll be able to figure out . And she's like , thank

31:46

you . I'm like , okay , and I just walk away .

31:49

Well , i love even the question and I have

31:51

to do this as a coach like , do you need

31:53

me to listen or do you want me to

31:55

provide solutions ? right

31:57

? Like , how do you want me to be for you

31:59

in this conversation ? Because I

32:02

can sit and be with you and listen and my husband

32:04

is good about this . He'll be , like do you want

32:06

me to try to solve this with you , or do you

32:08

need me to just hear you ? and I'm like thank

32:11

you for asking , because

32:13

it's a big one , right ? Just like how do you want me to

32:15

be with you when you're telling me these things that are going

32:17

on in your life ? right , we can all learn from that

32:20

.

32:20

A challenge that I am in the middle

32:22

of the nice guy and

32:25

this syndrome of niceness

32:27

that I think men and women

32:29

both experience and deal with .

32:32

Yeah , it's both yeah .

32:34

How do we discern the difference in

32:36

someone else ? I think we all have been very

32:38

conditioned to believe that a nice

32:41

guy is what we're looking for , and

32:44

I am unraveling that in

32:46

myself . But you also

32:48

want someone who is kind and is compassionate

32:51

and is showing up , and so how

32:53

do we discern ? How do we discern the

32:55

difference ?

32:57

If you know the man like you

32:59

, have history with him in a sense friendship or

33:01

a family member , and you can see

33:04

that there are people pleaser

33:06

, then you can question

33:08

their saying yes or

33:10

whatever the thing is . I do that

33:12

sometimes with my kids , especially with my daughter

33:15

, and I hope she doesn't hear this , but

33:17

I know she's a people pleaser . She's already starting

33:20

to develop that a little bit . She wants

33:22

to please like mom and dad , right ? She wants to make sure

33:24

that we don't get upset at her . So sometimes

33:26

we'll be talking about certain things and she'll give a certain

33:28

answer and I'm like no , i

33:30

want your truth . Please tell me

33:32

what you actually want for yourself

33:34

. I'm not going to get upset . Please tell

33:37

me . Don't just say what you want to

33:39

say to keep me happy , i don't care . I

33:41

just need you to tell me the truth And it doesn't have to be

33:43

confrontational . It's just hey , i know that

33:45

you have a hard time sometimes with this and

33:47

then just saying I rather

33:49

have your truth than you just

33:51

trying to keep me happy or whatever the thing is .

33:53

And what if it's someone you don't know ? Like

33:56

I'm going to start dating , you know

33:58

.

33:58

Yes , when you don't know , it

34:01

pops up and I haven't dated and I date

34:03

my wife , but I can't say how dating life

34:05

is right now . But I'd say , if a

34:07

man can call you on something

34:10

, Lovingly Yeah . I

34:12

was about to say respectfully , lovingly , then

34:15

you know that perhaps he's

34:17

not that nice guy , he's

34:19

not living with that sort of syndrome , because if

34:22

we are , there's no way we're going

34:24

to , we'll call you out . But what's going to be

34:26

very rude , disrespectful , right

34:29

, if for a man to

34:31

say you know , i really didn't appreciate

34:34

what you did at that date or whatever , but

34:36

it comes from again a loving , respectful place

34:38

, honesty , you know that

34:40

he's done some work , right .

34:43

I felt my heart like

34:45

I feel so emotional and

34:47

I think you just

34:49

clarified it so simply because

34:52

I really have been living with that question for

34:55

a while now Like , how do I trust myself

34:57

to know ? You know , I've

34:59

had enough life experiences that

35:01

I really

35:04

believed I was with someone safe and

35:06

then it didn't turn out to be that way . So

35:09

my own ability

35:11

to navigate and trust in my relationship

35:13

to men has been affected

35:15

. So I've been trying to figure out what that

35:17

is and you just

35:20

so simply made

35:22

it very clear for me and I

35:25

really appreciate that .

35:26

And another quick thing . Can I give you one more quick thing

35:28

That just came into my mind ? If he's

35:31

always texting you

35:33

and wanting to be with you right off the bat

35:35

, Warn it .

35:36

Oh , I already know that one .

35:38

I won and it's like whoa .

35:40

That one I got , i'm good .

35:42

Okay , all right , just wanted to put

35:44

that in there .

35:45

Yeah , but seeing through the niceness or seeing

35:47

through , you know , because

35:50

I think in some cases I really

35:52

was like , oh , i learned a lot from

35:54

the niceness . I think that I had

35:56

previous experiences where

35:58

, because I didn't experience generosity

36:00

or I didn't experience someone kind

36:02

of going above and beyond , when I did experience

36:05

it I was like , oh , isn't it so nice to be

36:07

with someone who just doesn't make these things a big deal

36:09

and they're so effortlessly generous

36:11

, and then not actually being able to see that

36:13

I was coming from potentially an inauthentic

36:16

place or a need to please , or he

36:18

just wanting to fill a role Right

36:20

. Yeah .

36:21

I hear you .

36:23

I think what I've learned is what I've been

36:25

trying to feel into , and I do think what

36:27

you said about someone being

36:30

able to lovingly call out the truth , i think

36:32

is major . It's really helpful , thank

36:34

you .

36:35

You're welcome .

36:36

I feel like I need to give my husband some credit after

36:38

this interview because I'm like a dominating

36:41

person . You know I've softened a lot

36:43

over the years of really like leaning and

36:46

learning more about my feminine side , but

36:48

I'm a strong woman and

36:50

he does a great job of meeting that

36:52

. It would be like calls me out of my bullshit

36:55

in a loving way , you know . But I need that

36:57

. I didn't want somebody that I could walk all over

36:59

and just dominate Like . I needed a match

37:01

that could be like okay , like sure you're

37:03

strong and I got

37:05

you And I can call you out and like

37:07

we'll be okay . I

37:10

hadn't really thought about that that much of just the

37:12

significance of that or just being able to , you

37:15

know , even like to say no or to

37:17

not operate out of guilt . I noticed

37:19

one thing that he does very well and

37:22

maybe something to look for is like his mom

37:24

is like I just love

37:27

her dearly and she loves planning

37:29

family events and things like that , and

37:31

like he literally won't give a yes unless he really means

37:34

it , like he has no problem with the no , like

37:36

I don't feel like doing that , i don't want it , you know , like so

37:38

, even sometimes when it comes to like moms

37:40

, which is probably a whole other window we could

37:42

open here of like the mama's boy

37:45

, or like wanting to please your mom and say yes , or do whatever

37:47

mom wants . He's also has great

37:49

boundaries around . That He shows up for a lot

37:51

of it . But he's also like I don't need to constantly

37:54

please , Like I'm not worried about losing your

37:56

love . Yeah , Yeah , aces

37:58

.

37:59

That's good , it's great Go .

38:01

John .

38:01

Yeah , we can be

38:04

so hard on our partners , but it's good to give them credit

38:06

. So I would love for you to share what

38:08

you have going on or ways that somebody

38:11

listening that's like , okay

38:13

, maybe I want to do this . Like how do men dip

38:16

their toes in ? How do we make this accessible

38:18

?

38:18

First and foremost , whether it's with me or anyone else follow

38:21

accounts on Instagram and any social media , right

38:23

, It's not going to hurt you by following an

38:25

account and then all of a sudden seeing certain things pop

38:27

up and just start reading and learning to open

38:29

yourself up to it . Open a men's group , right

38:32

, or check out a men's event . I

38:34

have like two closed groups

38:36

and they only open at certain points

38:38

during the year And , yeah , one-on-one

38:41

coaching obviously is almost at any

38:43

time , as long as I have space . But I

38:45

think for men just to dip their toe in is

38:48

just to open themselves up , just check it out

38:50

. And if you

38:52

connect with a friend or another

38:55

man in your life that you know from whatever

38:57

space that has gone through certain

38:59

things in their life , meet them up

39:01

for coffee . Ask them some questions , right

39:04

. Go beyond the sports and

39:06

business and politics and go into , like

39:08

how are you doing ? How did you work

39:10

through this challenge in your life ? I

39:12

know you were divorced . How was that ? What

39:14

did you have to face Those sort of things ? Start

39:16

having more conversations about deeper

39:19

things with men that you feel like

39:21

you can .

39:22

Yeah , it's perfect . My husband is

39:24

not . He plays sports , but he's not a sports

39:27

guy And he's like it is so hard

39:29

to be a man when you don't

39:31

watch sports because that is what everyone

39:34

goes to as their baseline conversation And he's like I

39:36

don't know what's going on And he's had to really work through

39:38

, not pretending , but it's really

39:40

hard because that is a go-to . Well

39:43

, i think that was such a brilliant point .

39:44

Yeah .

39:45

Just ask some different kinds of questions .

39:47

Get out of business , politics and sports

39:49

, i think it's a whole other conversation

39:51

to have about how men are showing up

39:53

for men and with each other . Oh , yeah

39:56

, yeah , and what is happening between

39:59

men is a big part of this , i think .

40:00

Yeah , i think so too , And you know , what I was about

40:03

to say was just reaching out to your male

40:05

friends and saying , hey , how are you

40:07

actually doing ? Because we don't do that

40:09

enough , especially as men , we don't do that

40:11

. How amazing would it be if you had a

40:13

friend that called you and say , hey , how's

40:15

life going on ? What are you dealing with ? Is there anything

40:18

that I can you want to , yeah , support

40:20

with or need to talk about , or whatever ? the thing is right

40:22

, you have to be yourself open

40:25

and willing to hold that space

40:27

for them . So that's also a challenge

40:29

. But , yeah , we need to just check in because even

40:31

if we don't know , even if you don't know the answer

40:33

, at least you can guide them and say

40:35

I hear you , i'm sorry that you're dealing

40:38

with this . Even just that acknowledgement

40:41

would help a lot of us men

40:43

. So you can be that leader . Right

40:46

, we want to be men , we want to be leaders . That's

40:48

a way to lead . A new way of leading is

40:50

checking in on your male friends .

40:52

Well , thank God for rock bottoms

40:55

Right .

40:57

I'm gone for rock bottoms .

40:59

Oh yeah , that's the title of the episode . Now , hell

41:02

yeah , what can be the hardest

41:04

moment of our lives can also

41:07

be the catalyst .

41:08

It's the best thing that ever happened to me .

41:10

Yeah , yeah , and

41:13

I'm so glad that you were willing to come and share your wisdom with

41:15

us .

41:15

Yes , thank you so much for being here . I

41:17

was really going to make a difference .

41:19

Thank you , appreciate both of you for inviting

41:22

me on , and I can keep on going . I

41:26

love talking about this .

41:27

That's a thing I feel like every conversation we

41:29

have . We're like we need like six more hours

41:31

with you . There's so much

41:34

more to unpack . We want to

41:36

bring men on here , We want to bring conscious men on here and we

41:38

want to open up the conversation

41:40

. It's not enough for us to just be having

41:42

it with women , Right ?

41:44

We'll come on and do another round at some point And we'll

41:46

go to the next level . I appreciate

41:48

it so much . Thank you , Kevin .

41:50

You're welcome . Definitely We

41:53

should Hey there Rebels .

42:03

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42:27

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