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nature, preserving life. You

1:01

and Betty and the Nazis and

1:03

pills and Joe's and James will

1:05

find in the study of science a

1:07

richer, more rewarding life.

1:11

Welcome to enquiring minds. I'm Andrei

1:14

Vascontas. This is a podcast that

1:16

explores space where science and society

1:18

collide. We want to find out what's true,

1:20

what's left to discover, and why it

1:23

matters. It's

1:32

not every day that you get to talk

1:35

to one of the world's most successful

1:37

record producers. And

1:39

it's even rarer

1:42

that the person we're gonna talk to today.

1:44

Also, in her mid forties, shifted

1:47

and went and got a PhD in cognitive neuroscience.

1:51

You can probably already imagine why I

1:53

am so excited to talk to

1:55

Susan Rogers today. Now,

1:57

you might wonder what a record producer

1:59

would bring to a PhD in neuroscience.

2:02

But in order to find out, you just have to read

2:04

her book. This is what it sounds

2:06

like. What the music you love says

2:08

about you. Because of course,

2:11

she spent her career listening and

2:13

figuring out which tracks, which

2:16

aspects of sound are gonna make the next

2:18

hit. And then she went and studied

2:20

psychoacoustics. And learned exactly

2:23

how the brain turns a sound wave

2:25

into the sublime experience of music.

2:28

can't imagine a better person

2:30

to walk us through the music that we love,

2:33

why it matters, and the science

2:35

behind this almost

2:37

universal human obsession. Susan

2:40

Rogers is now a professor at Berkeley College

2:42

of Music, as well as a multi

2:45

platinum record producer.

2:51

Susan Rogers, I am so thrilled

2:53

to welcome you to inquiring minds. Thank

2:55

you very much for having me on this

2:57

podcast. I'm really looking forward to our

3:00

conversation. I love the

3:01

topic, and there's lots to say about

3:03

it. I wanna jump right into

3:05

one part of your book that

3:08

when I read it set off so many

3:10

light bulbs in my head, you know,

3:13

metaphorically speaking, and really

3:15

just got me hooked. So tell us about

3:17

the time that you met Miles Davis

3:19

in Princess Studio.

3:22

I'll never forget that day. It was pretty

3:24

exciting. So

3:26

the year was this would have been early nineteen

3:29

eighty seven, and I was working for prints

3:31

as his full time audio

3:33

technician recording engineer. So

3:37

he Prince called he

3:39

said, come on over to the house pull out

3:41

these tapes out of the vault because Miles

3:43

Davis is coming over for dinner and I wanna

3:46

be able to play some music downstairs

3:48

when we're done in the studio. So I

3:50

pulled the tapes and I was waiting downstairs

3:52

in the home studio. And

3:55

I could hear the voices up above me.

3:57

It was Prince Miles and

4:01

Prince's dad, John Nelson, who's

4:03

a who's a piano player about

4:05

Miles' age. So anyway, I

4:07

heard the the feet on the stairs and Prince

4:09

came running downstairs and he looked at me and they

4:11

had that face that just said, you will

4:13

not believe this and kinda pointed

4:15

over his shoulder. So his dad and

4:17

miles came down, and miles

4:20

parked himself right in front of me.

4:23

I was standing next to the tape machine, and

4:25

miles stood right in front of me. I could have just reached

4:27

out and put my hand on his shoulder. And he

4:29

had his back to me. And he was facing

4:31

John Nelson, and they were talking about

4:34

pants. And John Nelson was

4:36

telling miles, I love those pants

4:38

you have. They both gotta talk about this. I love

4:40

those strip pants. Miles, what

4:42

strip pants? You know, strip pants? Where'd you

4:44

see me in strip pants? On TV? Where on

4:46

TV? I saw you hit the Grammy's. And then going

4:48

back and forth about these striped pants. And

4:51

all of a sudden, you know, miles is insisting

4:53

he doesn't have any striped pants, but all of sudden

4:55

he spins around miles does.

4:58

And he put his face, that

5:00

incredible face with those big

5:02

eyes, that intense stare that he had.

5:04

He put his face right in front of my face

5:06

And he said, yes, I do. They're made out

5:08

of eel like Vietnam. And

5:12

I said, eel like in Vietnam.

5:14

Because those words just don't go together.

5:17

pants made of eel like

5:19

in Vietnam, so I just held my ground

5:21

and I kept my face right there and he started

5:23

firing off questions who are

5:25

you? Where are you from? What do you do? How long have you been

5:27

here? And I

5:29

fired back answers.

5:31

And we're going back and forth. Back and forth really quickly.

5:33

And then he goes to you musician. And I said,

5:35

no, I'm not. And he

5:36

said, that's okay. Some of the best musicians

5:38

that I know aren't musicians. And that

5:40

was the moment. Where I

5:42

knew that your book was gonna tell us something

5:44

that no one else is either capable

5:47

of doing or has told us before. That

5:50

makes me that makes me glad to hear.

5:52

Yeah.

5:53

You know, I'm I'm not a musician, but my

5:56

relationship to music my entire life

5:58

from childhood till till today

6:01

has been as a listener. And

6:03

it eventually over

6:05

the years, slowly donged on me that

6:08

what Miles said could

6:10

apply to me. So I'm a non musician.

6:12

I don't play a writer sing. But

6:15

I'm musical as a

6:17

listener. I'm a good interpreter of

6:19

music. That's what you do in the recording studio.

6:22

That's what you do as a as a die

6:24

hard music lover. You

6:27

get really good. It's scanning.

6:30

That signal that you're hearing and

6:32

interpreting, this is what it sounds

6:35

like to me. And

6:38

I I hoped with this book to

6:41

make it clear to the readers, I

6:43

don't need you to think

6:45

about my own taste in music because

6:47

this book isn't about

6:48

that. Why would you care? It's

6:50

about your taste in music, and I'm

6:52

helping you to go through

6:54

that that mental process of

6:57

understanding why you like

6:59

what you like. And there's

7:01

a two reasons why I found this so compelling.

7:03

One is just that I don't think that up until

7:06

you know, I read your book, I understood

7:08

how much we already know about

7:11

the way in which music

7:13

listening is a skill that gets developed

7:15

and that can, you know, essentially

7:18

just like learning to play an instrument

7:21

learning to listen to music has

7:24

its own training patterns,

7:26

its own, you know, peaks

7:28

and valleys, etcetera. But

7:30

also because it gets at the one part

7:33

of music that I find, you

7:36

know, pretty pretty aggressive and cautious.

7:38

And that is that you know, I

7:40

I was trained as an opera singer. Uh-huh.

7:43

And, you know, that you know, for for

7:45

a lot of my life and still today,

7:47

you know, I spent a lot of time printing

7:49

and and thinking about how to produce this

7:51

vocal sound that I hear in my head.

7:54

And when people find that out or or often

7:56

actually after they heard

7:58

me sing. They will come

8:00

up and and say to me, you

8:03

know, I really

8:05

like Adele. Can

8:08

she sing? I'm

8:10

like, what does it matter

8:13

if some, like, nobody opera

8:15

singer that you know, yeah, like

8:17

in my own little niche, there's this thing

8:19

that I've spent a lot of time trying

8:22

to do thinks

8:25

about your taste

8:27

in singing. Like, it's it's like, what?

8:29

Sure. I can talk about how

8:31

she's using her diaphragm or whether her

8:33

soft palate is lifted. But that

8:36

ultimately has nothing to do with

8:38

singing. You know, with like

8:40

this expression. That's such

8:42

an interesting comment. It

8:44

reminds me of many years

8:45

ago, early in my professional career,

8:48

I asked a singer, an

8:50

experienced singer, to please

8:53

tell me about Barbara Streisand.

8:55

Tell me why Barbara Streisand was

8:57

regarded as being such a great singer.

8:59

Can you tell me technically what

9:01

is it she's doing that lifts her above

9:04

others? And it's a it's

9:06

a valid question because the person

9:08

is wanting to say, I

9:11

hear this as being great.

9:14

But I'm untrained. I don't know

9:16

what I'm talking about. Can you tell

9:18

me, is it truly great? Or or

9:20

is it just me? Or is it just you know, a cultural

9:22

phenomenon. Everyone says she's great, so she must

9:24

be great. And this person was

9:26

kind enough to explain to me. Here

9:29

are the technical skills

9:31

that Barbara Streisand possesses that

9:35

lead us to call her great. And that

9:37

that was a generous kind of a

9:39

generous response because she was giving me

9:41

something. She was teaching me something about

9:44

how vocals work and what we listen

9:46

for. And guess maybe I

9:48

I should see it that way and think about

9:50

what it is that I can add. I think the thing that

9:52

shaves at me is that somehow my

9:55

opinion seems to matter on

9:57

something so personal. And,

10:00

you know, III wanna reach out and give

10:02

the person a hug and say, it's okay k

10:04

to like the music you like regardless

10:06

of what anyone else thinks. I

10:09

know. And II1 of the things

10:11

that makes me feel so sad is

10:13

when people will preface a

10:15

conversation about music by saying, oh,

10:17

you know, I don't I don't know much about music

10:20

or I'm not. I don't have very good musical

10:22

taste. I just like pop. Hang

10:24

on just a minute here because

10:27

pop music is made by

10:29

some of our most successful and virtuouso

10:31

and talented and trained music

10:33

makers. To have a hit record

10:36

on the pop charts is no accident.

10:38

Like having a hit movie. So

10:41

if if all you liked cinematically was

10:43

was the blockbusters or maybe the Avengers

10:45

or whatever the superhero movies are, if

10:47

that's all you like, What's wrong with

10:50

that? So you don't go to art

10:52

house films. So what? Who cares? You

10:54

like what you like, and it's good. I

10:56

don't like to hear people put down

10:58

their taste in

10:59

music. Totally agree.

11:02

And so I wanna talk a little bit, you know, one of

11:04

the other things that that that really struck me the

11:06

beginning is that you

11:08

were an audio engineer

11:11

and you're you are

11:13

a woman. And that was

11:15

a rarity at the time. I think it's

11:17

still relatively, you

11:20

know, I think there's still a skew, you

11:22

know, in terms of the population of

11:24

of audio engineers. And

11:27

prints happen to be one of your favorite

11:30

musicians. And then this opportunity

11:32

came up. And I wonder if you could just talk a

11:34

little bit about what it was like to be a woman

11:37

audio engineer. And

11:39

then what it was like to to

11:42

be lifted up in a sense by

11:44

someone, you know,

11:46

like Brent's. Oh my gosh.

11:49

Yeah. Really amazing. So I

11:51

was living and working in Hollywood

11:53

at that time and at that time was

11:56

nineteen eighty three, when I got the call,

11:58

I'd been at it for about five years working

12:00

as an audio technician, which is even

12:02

more rare female audio technician

12:04

is even more rare than a recording engineer.

12:07

I was the person who repaired the equipment.

12:09

I repaired consoles and taped machines.

12:11

And That was that was my job,

12:14

self taught in audio electronics, and

12:16

taught by some really great technicians out in

12:18

LA. Anyway, at that time, Prince

12:20

my favorite artist in the whole world. I had all

12:22

his albums. I'd seen him live on the

12:24

dirty mind tour and the nineteen ninety

12:26

nine tour. I just was a huge

12:29

fan. And one day, I got a phone

12:31

call from another technician in

12:33

LA who said, you know, your dream job is

12:35

waiting for you. Prince is looking for

12:38

an audio technician, someone to

12:40

be his full time tech, moved to Minnesota.

12:42

And I said, well, then his search is over

12:44

because that's my job. And I got

12:46

that job. So it was friends

12:49

who transitioned me from being a technician.

12:51

That's who I was when he hired me into

12:53

the role of recording engineer. He liked

12:55

working with women. He liked working with

12:57

outsiders. And as you said, being a

12:59

woman in in the recording

13:02

studio, you were pretty rare bird.

13:04

You should have seen what it looked like back in eighty three.

13:06

He just didn't see a lot of women in

13:08

those roles, but I was one and I

13:10

knew my stuff. And he liked that.

13:12

And I was a a

13:14

Prince fan. I I liked the same kind of

13:16

music he liked, and I could

13:18

hang. I could hang those late

13:20

night hours with him and do those twenty

13:22

four hour sessions because I was I

13:24

was in my dream job.

13:26

So Yeah. Unless anyone

13:29

who's listening, thanks. Oh, it

13:31

must be some lesser known

13:33

Prince album.

13:35

Why don't you tell us, what was the album

13:37

that you wanted him on? Well,

13:40

the very first recording I did with him is

13:42

on the purple rain album. So

13:44

he had just come off the nineteen ninety nine

13:46

tour and he was he'd

13:48

gotten the green light from Warner Bros. To make

13:50

his movie purple rain and He had already

13:53

recorded some of the songs for the album Purple

13:55

Rain. He was planning the movie and the tour and all

13:57

that, so I jumped right in. Do

14:00

an intense work environment. That train was

14:03

moving really fast. We didn't

14:05

know at the time, you never know if a record's

14:07

gonna be a hit, certainly didn't know if the movie

14:09

was gonna be a hit. It turned out that they

14:11

both were. And that

14:13

album had I think the six

14:16

longest run-in all of the

14:18

Billboard magazine's history. It was number

14:20

one for twenty four weeks. So

14:23

we worked on together, we worked on purple

14:25

rain and around the world in a day, and

14:27

the parade album, and sign of

14:30

times, which is considered by critics to

14:32

be his other masterpiece. And

14:35

we did all the recording with all the

14:37

other artists that he worked with at that time, his

14:39

protege bands like The Time and

14:42

Vanity six, later Apollonia six

14:45

and Sheila

14:45

E, and we did a lot of

14:47

work in those four years when I was

14:49

with him. So tell me what

14:52

it's like for you or what it was

14:54

like for you. In the studio, he's

14:57

playing your listening. How

15:01

are you using your skills to

15:03

do your

15:03

job? Can you describe that?

15:06

Well, with prints, you always have to

15:09

issue a qualifier and you have to say

15:11

the way it was with prints is not the way it

15:13

is with most recording artists.

15:16

Maybe he was truly, truly exceptional.

15:18

And now with my neuroscience training, I

15:21

believe that he is what we would label

15:23

a hyper creative, which involves

15:25

some, which we can talk about in

15:28

another moment. But It involves some

15:30

different circuits in the brain.

15:32

Anyway, he was so

15:34

fastile on so many different instruments.

15:37

He was so quick his decision

15:40

making process was so instantaneous

15:42

and usually spot on that

15:45

he moved really quick from one

15:47

instrument to the next to the next to the next.

15:49

That's if we were in a recording studio. If

15:51

we were at rehearsal, he'd be directing his band

15:54

on stage. And then we'd be recording

15:56

there. But at a typical day in the studio

15:58

would often involve him coming in

16:00

either playing an acoustic drum

16:02

kit or programming the drum machine,

16:04

adding base, adding keys, adding guitars,

16:07

adding his lead vocal, adding all his background

16:09

vocals, he might call in Eric Leads

16:11

or someone to do horn parts or Wendy and

16:14

Lisa to do additional parts

16:16

or backing vocals, but he he frequently

16:19

played and saying everything on the

16:21

record. Now, as we're working

16:23

this way, I'm simultaneously sculpting

16:26

the sound to help it be exactly

16:28

what he wants it to be. Because

16:31

I joined him as a technician, I had

16:33

no artistic ear of my own.

16:36

So I had no preconceived

16:38

notion of how a recording

16:40

engineer

16:42

selects what's good and what's bad when

16:44

it comes to sound. That was perfect for

16:46

Prince because he could teach me his ear.

16:49

And so, like, would he come over and say, I want

16:51

it to sound like this and you should boost this level

16:53

and you should turn that down or was

16:55

it, you know, how how did how did that communication

16:58

work? He Prince was very,

17:00

very hands on sitting behind the

17:01

console, but he couldn't always have his hands on the

17:03

console because most of the time he had his hands on

17:06

a musical instrument. So I

17:08

would push sound around a bit

17:11

conforming to his ear while he

17:13

was playing. And then after he finished playing

17:15

and we were mixing, he'd take

17:17

what I had started with and

17:19

he would lean over and add a

17:21

little more reverb or add a

17:24

a little less of this or that. But if he wanted

17:26

something, he'd asked me, can we get more of this

17:28

or less of that and he didn't technically know

17:30

how to achieve that. So I

17:33

would dial in sounds that I

17:35

think this this would think

17:38

he would like. You know, I'd try different reverb

17:40

settings and things like that. And I

17:42

I knew when to use a compressor and when to

17:44

use a limiter. And that

17:46

sort of thing. So it

17:48

sounds like maybe like I'm being overly modest,

17:51

but I'm not. I'm emphasizing that

17:53

he very much push that

17:55

paint around on that canvas to

17:57

get the ultimate picture he was aiming

18:00

for. What I supplied

18:02

and other engineers supplied was

18:04

a technical knowledge that he didn't know.

18:06

So he would ask for something, and we knew how

18:09

how to achieve the thing he was asking

18:11

for. And as you've described it, in

18:13

a sense he taught you his ear. And

18:16

so I wanna talk a little bit about ears.

18:18

What that means? Because, of course,

18:20

a lot of the hearing

18:22

that we do is not in our ears,

18:25

it's in our brains. And there are

18:27

these loops between our brains

18:29

and our inner ear So can you

18:31

just walk us through for

18:33

those of our listeners who who maybe aren't familiar?

18:36

You know, how does the sound

18:39

waves get translated into the

18:42

neural language and then how

18:44

does the brain go back

18:46

and influence what it is that

18:48

the that the inner ear pays attention

18:50

to.

18:50

It's so marvelous.

18:53

How that happens. The more I

18:55

learn about it, the more excited I

18:57

get about it, because it's so beautiful.

19:00

So every sound you've ever heard in

19:02

your life has started with

19:04

an acoustic pressure wave in the air.

19:06

Just those air molecules sitting there minding their

19:08

own business, nobody's bothering them until

19:11

something in that room starts to vibrate,

19:14

which can be a loud speaker, or it can be someone's

19:16

voice, or whatever, there's something vibrating,

19:19

and now those four little molecules are getting pushed

19:21

back and forth. Ugh. I

19:23

answer Primorifies everything. So they're going

19:25

back and forth in this little pattern. And

19:27

that ultimately results in a pattern

19:29

of back and forth activity on your eardrum.

19:32

And then from there, it's connected to the three bones

19:34

of the middle ear and they're doing

19:36

their little thing going back and forth, and

19:38

that's connected. To

19:41

inside the cochlear, there's like it kinda

19:43

looks like a long tongue. It's a long membrane

19:45

that runs through that snail shaped cochlea.

19:48

And that little membrane, the basilar membrane

19:51

is being bounced up and down and

19:53

down in that pattern of

19:55

activity. And

19:58

sitting on top of that basilar

20:01

membrane, there's a single row of inner

20:03

hair cells, which I like to think of as your

20:05

analog to digital converter. Because

20:07

those little things, little hair cells, they're so

20:09

called because they have Stereocilia. They

20:12

look like hairs on top of the little

20:14

cell. They're bouncing up and down.

20:16

And as they bounce up and down in that pattern,

20:19

here's where it gets really cool. The

20:22

little hairs on the top are

20:24

swinging back and forth and back

20:26

and forth with every up and down motion

20:28

of the wave. Add us the

20:30

little hairs swing back

20:32

and forth. Those wee little hairs

20:35

are connected by wee little springs

20:37

called tip links. And those

20:40

on the one half of the cycle.

20:42

The little springs expand and on the

20:44

other half of the cycle, when it goes negative, they

20:46

contract. So positive negative positive

20:49

negative, expand contract, expand contract,

20:51

which opens little pores

20:54

in the little hairs, which lets charged

20:56

ions, sodium potassium,

20:59

things like that. Calcium. Come

21:01

into the little hairs, which

21:05

drifts down to the bottom of the inner hair cell,

21:08

releases neurotransmitters, and they're

21:10

waiting at the base of the inner hair

21:12

cell. Is the auditory nerve bundle.

21:15

So for each inner hair cell, there's between

21:17

six and ten nerves sitting

21:19

there, waiting for that signal. And

21:21

those neurotransmitters get released

21:23

from the base of the inner hair cell into the

21:25

gap. Oh, and then

21:28

exciting. Then the the

21:31

nerve cells, the receptive end,

21:33

the dendrites, they open their

21:35

own little channels, now you got

21:38

nerve spike. So on each side,

21:40

coming out of our left and our right ears

21:43

is an auditory nerve bundle that you

21:45

can think of as your wiring. Thirty thousand

21:47

roughly auditory nerves

21:49

on each side. So

21:51

now this signal which is now a digital

21:54

signal is coming up as

21:56

a pattern of activity collected

21:59

from the three thousand five hundred

22:01

inner hair cells in each cochlea, and

22:03

now that pattern of activity is going up Now,

22:05

the interesting thing about the auditory system

22:08

is if that weren't interesting enough, is that

22:10

compared to visual, there's a lot

22:12

of little processing stations way

22:15

stations would have to deal with that signal

22:17

and make decisions about it on the way

22:19

up to the brain. Starting with

22:21

the cochlear nucleus, It's

22:24

analyzing your low frequencies, your mids

22:26

and your highs, and it goes up. The

22:28

next station is the superior olive.

22:30

And that's super cool because it's

22:32

comparing the signal from the left and right ears

22:35

and figuring out where in space that sound

22:37

source is coming from, then it goes up

22:40

to your inferior colliculus and

22:42

that little homegirl using a

22:44

nineties colloquialism here. That

22:46

little homegirl is getting

22:48

inputs from your two ears, but

22:50

also getting the efferent

22:53

signal that's coming down from your

22:55

brain to help you decide

22:57

what it is you wanna pay attention to and what

22:59

you wanna ignore. So that little thing,

23:01

the inferior colloquialist is getting all kinds of

23:03

inputs And then the signal on this part's

23:05

cool, leaves the inferior colliculus

23:08

and goes up through the

23:10

limbic system, it goes up through through the thalamus,

23:13

the medial geniculate nucleus of the

23:15

thalamus, and that region then

23:17

compares what you're hearing with what you're seeing,

23:19

and it finally gets up to your auditory

23:21

cortex. And once it's up here right

23:24

above your ears, then higher

23:26

order circuits can decide,

23:28

is this familiar or unfamiliar? Do

23:31

I like it or hate it? Do

23:33

I wanna listen to it? Do I wanna turn this

23:35

off? Is there something else that's taking precedence?

23:38

So those higher order circuits can

23:40

then tell your auditory cortex, ignore

23:43

this. I wanna hear that. You

23:46

send a signal back down the chain,

23:48

which terminates at the outer

23:50

hair cells of the cochlea.

23:52

And those little things are even more amazing.

23:55

They function a little bit like your d to

23:57

a converters. They get a digital input

24:00

of nerve spikes. Their output is

24:02

mechanical. Pushing and pulling on

24:04

regions of the basilar membrane

24:07

that correspond to the source

24:09

you wanna be listening to. It's

24:12

absolutely incredible because

24:15

so many things have to

24:17

happen, and yet your auditory

24:19

system is working so hard for

24:21

you. Is it kind of beautiful thing?

24:24

And it's so fast. And

24:26

that does allow us to selectively

24:29

hear things. Like, if you're, you know, we call it

24:31

the cocktail party effect. You're in a

24:33

room with a whole bunch of people

24:36

and somebody says your name from

24:38

across the room at the same decibel

24:40

level the people around you, normally,

24:42

you would think you should not be able to hear

24:45

that particular sound because

24:47

there's all this noise that you're that

24:49

you're listening to. And of course, we are limited into

24:51

how much we can pay attention, and

24:53

yet you're you pick it

24:55

up, and then you tune in

24:57

Yeah. I remember learning in grad

24:59

school that there are certain circuits

25:01

in our auditory brain that are

25:04

particularly sensitive to

25:06

sounds that are very important

25:08

in our world. So when people are talking

25:10

about money, about sex,

25:13

or when they're talking, they mention our

25:15

name, there are circuits that

25:18

pick up on that nerve

25:20

pattern that corresponds to your name or corresponds

25:22

to some exciting conversation

25:25

and that alerts higher

25:27

order executive circuits to

25:31

this this this guys talking to you about this

25:33

basketball game you just went to. Forget about that

25:35

for just a moment because somebody is talking

25:37

about money and I wanna hear this stock tip

25:39

or I just heard someone say my name. And

25:41

it will override that. Now you

25:43

mentioned the loop and that's

25:45

exactly why we have a loop. So higher

25:47

order circuits are sending a signal back

25:50

down to the cochlea, just like we

25:52

send signal to our eyes, to focus on

25:54

something that's near or far left and right,

25:56

we tell our body, this this is

25:58

the signal that I'm interested it in right

26:00

now. Hone in on that. See if you

26:02

can suppress the activity that

26:04

comes from something I'm not interested in.

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27:46

And I think this is where training, education,

27:49

experience can have a massive

27:51

impact on developing an

27:54

ear. Right? And

27:56

so, you know, I I've been podcasting for ten

27:58

years. I can hear things, I

28:00

think, that people who

28:02

maybe aren't as into the medium

28:05

literally can't because they're not

28:07

attuned to, you know, those particular

28:10

sort of sounds or those differences. Just

28:13

like someone who is a concert

28:15

violinist can hear

28:17

things in other, you know, violin

28:19

performances that I can't hear. And

28:22

so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about,

28:24

you know, the that and that to me is the

28:26

is the musicality of

28:29

listening. And, you know,

28:31

how it is that do we you know, how does that

28:33

people develop this kind of an ear?

28:35

Does it happen by chance?

28:37

You know, working with musicians like, Prince

28:40

or, you know, talking to Miles

28:42

Davis. I mean, there's lots of really spectacular

28:45

musicians who didn't go through a formal

28:47

music theory training program. I

28:49

don't know if either of those two did, but they

28:51

developed their ear, you know,

28:53

by listening, by doing. And

28:55

so so can you tell us a little bit about how does

28:57

that work? How does a

28:59

how do you craft a really

29:01

good ear? There's so much

29:03

good stuff in there in

29:06

that question. So when

29:09

we're young, our auditory system,

29:11

this something I didn't know until fairly

29:13

recently. Our auditory system hasn't

29:15

even finished developing. It's

29:17

not even fully online until

29:20

just before puberty. Age eight to

29:22

twelve, and that's when the brain says, alright,

29:24

I gotta tighten down these last nuts and

29:26

bolts because all hell is about to break loose with

29:28

puberty here. I got other things to worry

29:30

about. So let's get on with it. But

29:32

in the first ten or twelve years of our lives,

29:35

we're learning spatial

29:37

localization, amplitude

29:39

modulation and detecting that in a

29:41

signal and detecting frequency modulation and

29:44

gap detection and all that, little kids actually

29:46

don't hear all that well. I mean,

29:48

nothing wrong with their ears. They don't they can't

29:51

compute the signal very well. So

29:54

for most of us, unless we have

29:56

formal musical lessons, that's

29:58

where our music listening development basically

30:01

stops. Kids are about eleven years old,

30:04

perform music perception tasks

30:07

about the same as adults, unless

30:09

they have formal musical training and

30:11

or to a lesser extent

30:14

foreign languages bilingual.

30:16

So If

30:20

they're taking music lessons, their auditory system

30:22

is getting more and more developed and they become

30:24

what I like to call auditory athletes.

30:27

So the auditory nerve bundle grows some

30:29

extra branches. They get more dendritic

30:31

spines. More branches

30:34

on the on the nerve. The nuclei

30:36

that I talked about a moment ago get fatter

30:38

and thicker and musicians, trained musicians

30:40

are really good at listening analytically.

30:44

As I'm sure you can do, listening

30:46

analytically and detecting real

30:49

subtle differences in sounds.

30:51

Now you would have thought that

30:54

as a recording engineer, I'd

30:56

have that ability too. But,

30:58

no, I was disappointed to learn that I

31:00

don't have that ability because Once

31:03

that clay starts to harden, not

31:05

having had music lessons in my youth,

31:08

I can't listen analytically. I

31:10

don't have the neural architecture. I

31:13

can listen synthetically to

31:15

the global whole of

31:17

a record. So that's

31:20

actually for record producers a little bit of

31:22

an advantage. So I've developed

31:24

an ear that allows me to

31:26

hear intentionality in

31:29

a vocal performance or in

31:31

a base performance or drum

31:34

performance or guitar solo. I

31:37

Because I can't pick it apart

31:39

to the same extent that you

31:41

can. I'm pretty good

31:43

at hearing the big picture. I

31:46

would like to be able to listen analytically, but

31:49

since I can't, I'm good with

31:51

what I've got. Now developing

31:53

an ear to hear music

31:55

performance. That does

31:58

require an awful lot of listening and

32:00

it also requires having

32:02

expert friends kind of walk you through

32:04

with their hearing and

32:06

point out, this is what's

32:08

great about this performance. Knowledge

32:11

greatly mediates our

32:13

perceptions. That's well established

32:15

now. Yeah. And that's sort of what

32:17

I like to say is a difference between purposeful

32:20

practice where you're trying really hard

32:22

to get better at something, but you don't

32:24

have a guide and deliberate

32:26

practice, where you have an

32:28

expert who's helping you. So

32:30

I wanna you you have these sort of seven

32:33

dimensions that you write about in your book

32:36

of the listener profile. And

32:39

Four are the kind that I think are little bit

32:41

more predictable, melody rhythm,

32:44

lyrics, and timbre, and we can talk about

32:46

those. And then three are the ones

32:48

that I think most of us don't

32:51

really understand how we hear authenticity,

32:54

realism, and well,

32:57

now I'm blanking on the seventh. Novelty

32:59

versus Novelty. Novelty. Sorry. Of Of course.

33:01

Novelty. Yes. So I wanna actually start

33:03

you and and as you do in your book, to talk

33:05

about authenticity. Like, how

33:08

do we what does that mean? And how do

33:10

we hear it? And why is it important?

33:15

Of these seven dimensions of any

33:17

type of record in any style of music,

33:20

these any one of these aspects

33:23

of of the record can independently

33:25

of the others give you

33:27

a sonic treat little release

33:30

of dopamine and make you say, oh, I love that

33:32

record. So you you might you might

33:34

love certain records in your collection just

33:36

for the groove. Just for the rhythm. You might like

33:38

other records in your collection for the lyrical

33:40

message and other records for the melodies. Now

33:43

the records for the sound design Other

33:46

records for your cognitive

33:48

appraisal of them, that's would

33:51

be novelty and familiarity. You

33:53

might say, no. No. I I just love music in

33:55

this style, and that's why I love this

33:57

new Bluegrass record. Or while

34:00

that was really innovative, I never would thought of

34:02

that. That's why I love this record. Realism

34:05

and abstraction has to do with with

34:07

visualizations. I like

34:10

to when I listen to my favorite music,

34:12

I like to visualize the performers, so

34:14

I like records made with real musical

34:16

instruments and real human beings. But

34:20

other people prefer abstract records

34:22

that are made in the box or made entirely

34:25

with software where there's no instrument there.

34:28

So we have our preferences. Authenticity

34:31

though is the one dimension that I learned

34:33

more about in the recording studio than in

34:35

the laboratory. Authenticity refers

34:38

to where you perceive the performance

34:40

gestures as coming from and whether

34:42

or not you perceive them as being. Felt

34:46

intentional. Is that

34:48

singer singing her heart

34:50

out? Or is she just going through the

34:52

motions? Is that guitar

34:54

player playing a solo that

34:57

he's suddenly inspired by and inventing

34:59

right here on the spot? Or

35:01

is he just playing notes that he's played elsewhere

35:03

a million times? Where do

35:05

you since this performance

35:07

is coming from? Some of us have preference

35:10

from music that we might label cerebral.

35:13

Music that comes shall we say from the neck

35:15

up because it's just so damn brilliant.

35:18

Just so damn brilliant and

35:22

that part of your brain that appreciates great

35:24

virtuality can say

35:26

wow that just kills me. How do

35:29

you get to sing like that? How do you get

35:31

to be like that? Other times

35:34

or other people might have

35:36

a preference that for music

35:38

that just seems to come straight from the heart or

35:40

straight from the gut or straight from

35:43

the groin. Someone can bar

35:45

band, for example, can play dared it, and

35:47

and and and and and

35:49

if they play it in the right context and with the

35:51

right gusto, that can feel great.

35:54

Not because it's brilliant, but it just

35:56

might appeal to another

35:58

sort of craving that you're experiencing

36:01

right. Experiencing right now, which could be

36:03

lust or it could be, you

36:05

want your heartstrings pulled

36:09

This is what we mean by authenticity. Is

36:12

is your perception that

36:14

that music performance was

36:16

genuine? And

36:19

was coming from a

36:21

place of authenticity or sincerity in

36:23

the

36:23

performer. There you go. There's this. There's this. And

36:25

I'm gonna butcher it. There's quote, you know, from

36:27

some Hollywood exec that said, like, you

36:29

know, the key to a great acting performance is,

36:31

you know, sincerity. And if if you can

36:34

fake that, you've made you've made

36:36

it. I wonder if you could

36:38

talk about, do do

36:40

people agree? Like, is there something

36:42

in the sound wave that

36:45

we can point to and say, uh-huh, that

36:47

sounds authentic or is it

36:49

subjective? Like, would could could if

36:52

you take a hundred people, and they

36:54

all listen to the sound wave. Is it

36:56

gonna be fifty fifty? Is it gonna be

36:58

eighty five fifteen? Like, how

37:00

do people agree? And can we

37:03

quantify or qualify what

37:05

that is?

37:06

Great, great question. And that's why I

37:08

prefaced its explanation by saying

37:10

that of the seven men that's the one

37:12

I know more about from the studio

37:14

than I know from my

37:17

my neuroscience studies. So, yeah,

37:19

it's a great question. And I think the answer

37:21

is kind of maybe. It is subjective.

37:24

Authenticity is subjective, but I believe

37:26

that authenticity learning

37:28

to detect it is something

37:30

that can be learned. You can

37:33

develop an ear for it, and that's what

37:35

makes record producers successful

37:37

or not at their job. So you're record

37:40

producer. Right? You're in the control room.

37:42

The musicians are on the other side of the glass. You've

37:44

just heard of performance and there technically

37:46

no wrong notes, and every note

37:48

was in time, no sounds okay.

37:51

Is that the one? Is that the take?

37:53

Is that gonna be it? You have to

37:55

learn to hear intentionality

37:58

in that performance. When I worked

38:01

with the great producer, Tony

38:03

Burke, I was his engineer. I learned

38:05

a lot about production from him and one of

38:07

the most frequent feedback

38:09

bits that he'd give the band the

38:12

other side of the glass is he'd lean on that

38:14

talk back button and he'd say, hey, dig

38:16

in dig in

38:19

meaning that the band has gone through the motions

38:22

enough times, and he can hear that they're

38:24

bored. They're bored. Come on. Grab

38:26

that instrument and talk to me.

38:28

Communicate. With that instrument.

38:30

I want to hear intentionality from

38:33

each and every one of you. The

38:35

researcher Ellen Winter at Boston

38:37

University is looking at that with painting.

38:40

And she has shown that

38:43

people can look at an abstract

38:46

painting. And say whether or not

38:48

it was done by an artist or

38:50

done by a four year old. Because you know how sometimes

38:52

you see abstract art and people say, oh, my kid

38:54

could have done that. Actually know your kid

38:56

couldn't have done that because when

38:59

children's abstract art

39:01

is shown to viewers, we

39:03

can tell. On some level,

39:05

we can tell, call it a gut instinct

39:07

or whatever, but these small

39:09

gestures add up to

39:11

or point back to an

39:14

intention to communicate something.

39:17

Humans are pretty good at picking up on it.

39:20

Yep. And and there's obviously a

39:22

lot of chatter right now about these

39:24

various AI art generators. It'll

39:26

be interesting to see how the if if

39:28

and, you know, if and how that

39:30

might shift in the next decade. But

39:33

I wanna talk little bit about the four

39:35

dimensions that I think most of us are

39:37

familiar with in terms of music. And you just have

39:39

this great analogy of sort

39:42

of the different body parts that are associated

39:45

with these, like, say, in a record. So so

39:47

tell us about that. Yeah. This

39:49

is the kind of kind of thing we'd talk about

39:51

in the recording studio when you're making a record.

39:53

To talk about music because it's the love of

39:55

your life and you're raising a musical baby

39:57

here and it's really all you're interested in.

40:00

And So there you go. So

40:03

we talk about sometimes

40:05

Melody as being the heart of

40:07

a record because Miss Prince

40:10

would say Beethoven had an area drum

40:12

kit. It's not like Beethoven had needed a funky

40:14

drummer or lyrics Melody

40:17

itself can just make us

40:19

swoon. It can melt our hearts. It

40:21

can convey power or strength

40:24

or Even subtle emotions like

40:26

jealousy or or even disgust,

40:29

melodies are are are kind of going

40:31

straight to our hearts. Wordlessly. Rhythm,

40:34

of course, is a record's hips because

40:38

rhythm on a popular record or

40:40

even on a classical record is going to

40:42

get your body to

40:44

want to move in a certain way. It

40:46

might be up and down. It might be front to back.

40:48

It might be side to side might be syncopated

40:51

or not in that group, but you're going to want to move

40:53

a certain way to it. So rhythms,

40:55

music's hips. Definitely

40:58

lyrics would be music's

41:00

head or music's brain because that's

41:02

words and languages human

41:05

beings most. Some most

41:07

clever skill. And with all these

41:09

words we have, lyrics

41:12

cause us to think things we

41:14

might have never thought before, they give us solutions

41:17

to problems that we needed

41:19

at the moment. And we say that timber

41:21

is a record space

41:23

because the timber of individual instruments

41:27

says something about

41:30

well, allows you to visualize. It says something

41:32

about about who played it and or what

41:34

was being played. You can tell the difference

41:37

between a guitar and a violin, but not

41:39

only that you have associations for

41:41

these certain timbers and attack

41:44

piano, let's say, is gonna

41:47

evoke different images than

41:49

a bosendorfer or a steinway grand

41:51

piano will evoke. So, chambers

41:55

timber conjures up memories because there's

41:57

so many associations

41:58

with having heard that that those

42:00

sounds in the past. And I think

42:02

that's just a beautiful way to help people

42:04

understand their own musical preferences. You

42:07

know, why you can love one album because

42:09

you just love the timbre and the face

42:11

of it. But, you know, maybe

42:13

you don't really love the lyrics. Maybe

42:15

they're a bit, you know, derivative in your mind, etcetera.

42:18

And then you can have another album that actually

42:20

hits all four. And then it just becomes

42:22

this like just blast

42:24

of, you know, reward in your

42:27

brain that it's so satisfying I

42:29

love when that happens. I just

42:31

I just love that. I'm thinking right now of one

42:34

that I mentioned in the book, and it just makes

42:36

me swoon. Just even thinking about it and playing

42:38

it in my head from memory makes me

42:40

think, oh, it's so good.

42:42

I mean, I think for a lot of people when we included

42:44

Purple Rain is is But

42:47

I just wanna remind our listeners that Susan

42:49

Rogers book cooperate with with OG Ogus.

42:51

Is that how you pronounce other name?

42:54

Ogli. Ogli, Ogli. Yeah.

42:56

This is what it sounds like. What the

42:58

music you love says about you is

43:00

available booksellers everywhere and would make

43:02

a great holiday gift. For

43:04

anyone, including those

43:07

of your family and friends who

43:09

don't consider themselves musicians but

43:11

still are passionate about music. This will

43:13

really, I think, make them feel

43:15

seen and heard and appreciated

43:19

And I wanna sort of end with like, you know, what

43:21

the music you love says about you part

43:23

of it. I want you know, IIII

43:25

wanna delve a little bit back into neuroscience

43:28

if we could if we could for a minute to

43:31

pull together sort of what we talked about at

43:33

the beginning of the episode about this

43:35

sort of, you know, the the very

43:37

beginnings of how

43:39

we perceive sound, and

43:42

then how that relates to

43:45

our sense of self and

43:47

the default mode network. And so maybe

43:49

you could tell us about the default mode network,

43:51

how, you know, how it works, and then the

43:54

role of the little gatekeeper.

43:56

Yeah. So the subtitle

43:58

turns out to be a little bit misleading

44:01

because sometimes people have asked me, okay,

44:03

these are the records that I like, what does that say

44:05

about me? And what my intention

44:07

was and I didn't pull it off. My

44:09

intention was to give you the language

44:12

so you can tell me what the

44:14

music you love says about you. You tell

44:16

me about the melodies you like and the

44:19

realism that you like on a record or

44:21

the abstraction or whatever. So

44:23

So the reason we do

44:25

this is because music listening

44:28

is private. No

44:30

one else is up there in our heads. No

44:32

one else can see what we see in our minds

44:35

eye or experience what we're feeling when

44:37

we're listening to a record that we love.

44:39

So neuroscience has recently

44:42

started investigating something that they call

44:44

the default network. The default

44:46

network is a collection of brain nuclei

44:48

and their interconnections that turn

44:50

on and get active whenever we

44:53

go into our own heads. And

44:55

if you ask people are you thinking

44:57

about something other than what you're doing right now?

44:59

Thirty to fifty percent of

45:01

the time, people say yes.

45:05

We're in our own heads a lot. That's

45:07

what a brain does. It focuses on the outside

45:09

world and goes back to the inside world. Outside

45:11

inside back and forth all day long. It's a good

45:13

thing. But the default

45:15

network turns out is

45:17

really excited, really happy, really

45:20

active when we're listening to a

45:22

record we love. So

45:25

a record that you like and especially

45:27

your favorite records will

45:29

light up that default network and

45:31

cause you to turn inward

45:34

and go to that private place in your

45:36

psyche, where you and that record

45:38

are essentially alone together? Such

45:40

a beautiful thing to think about. It's

45:43

conjuring up memories and feelings,

45:45

making you wanna move a certain way,

45:48

making you wanna sing along or

45:50

not. That's your private

45:52

world. Now, you mentioned the

45:54

precunious. Because that little

45:56

thing, it's like

45:58

in most of our brain structures, we've got two of them,

46:00

one on the left, one on the right, and the one on the right

46:02

has got a very important job to do. It's

46:05

not part of the default network,

46:07

but it's connected to the network.

46:09

So it's kinda like a little bit of a gatekeeper.

46:12

The little pre cutaneous is very important for

46:14

creative thought. If you need to do something

46:16

creative, whether it's designer poster or a t

46:18

shirt or just whatever, The bikinis

46:20

has to get active because it has to open

46:22

its little gates that are normally shut,

46:25

open those gates and allow new ideas

46:28

to Flow. It's essential for creativity.

46:31

Anyway, Robin Wilkins at

46:33

Wake Forest University ran a brilliant

46:35

FMRII experiment where she had participants

46:38

come in and bring with them into the into

46:40

the lab, bring some records you

46:42

like, bring a favorite record, and

46:44

bring some music you dislike. And

46:46

she watched their active brains as they're

46:49

listening to these three categories of music.

46:51

And the love recunies get all excited and

46:53

connected to the default network

46:56

when people were listening to liked and favorite

46:58

music. But when they listen to music,

47:00

they dislike The precunier said

47:03

no, do not want, and

47:05

it cut itself off from

47:07

the default network. And as Robin

47:09

Wilkins wrote, it became connected

47:11

primarily just to itself.

47:14

In other words, it's like, get away

47:16

get away. Stay away from me. I don't want

47:18

this. I won't integrate

47:21

this record that I dislike in

47:23

my psyche. That's

47:25

a really astonishing finding

47:29

because it's saying to us and we know

47:31

from other studies that our

47:33

auditory brain and

47:35

our our musical brain is

47:38

shaping itself over time to

47:40

get more and more and more fine tuned. This

47:43

work has been done also in in the last decade

47:45

or so. We now know that when

47:47

you get those dopamine hits from

47:49

listening to music that you like, when you get that

47:52

opiate release, There

47:54

are lack of opiates from

47:56

music that gives you chills or doesn't.

47:59

That's shaping your auditory cortex to

48:02

get better and faster at recognizing the

48:04

music of you that belongs in your

48:06

private head space. And so

48:09

if we want, to open

48:12

our minds and our ears to learning

48:14

a new type of music that we previously

48:17

disliked. We gotta find

48:19

a way to convince that little precunious that

48:22

it needs to connect to the default

48:24

network from personal experience, and

48:26

this is where I'm stepping out of

48:28

empirical research reports and stepping

48:30

into personal experience, but my

48:32

personal experience tells me this

48:34

happens when we're experiencing a

48:36

little bit of love, little bit of dopamine.

48:39

So let's say, for instance, well,

48:42

I'll describe. I love

48:44

my students at Berkeley College of Music. In

48:46

the first semester, I was there, I met

48:48

couple of kids, Andrew and Alex, who

48:50

turned me onto American Hardcore.

48:53

It's kinda like a more sophisticated version

48:55

of punk. I never would have paid any attention

48:57

to it before. I would have turned it off if it had been

48:59

in your shot. These guys

49:01

love this music so much. And

49:04

they taught me how to listen to it. And

49:06

together, we formed like a triangle. They

49:09

loved this music. I loved

49:11

them. And so the third leg of the

49:13

triangle formed where

49:16

their generosity, their sweetness

49:18

and sharing this music that they loved with

49:20

me caused me to feel

49:22

good And as I

49:25

felt good while listening, it

49:27

may have convinced the little precunious

49:30

This is not poison. It will not

49:32

kill you. Be cool.

49:36

Just listen and and And

49:38

as a result, I learned to like hardcore.

49:40

Other students did that for me with electronic

49:43

music. You can

49:45

change your mind, but it it takes a little

49:47

bit of a little bit of persuading.

49:50

I mean, I think that's such a beautiful way too

49:52

to go into the holiday season where, of

49:54

course, music plays a big role no matter

49:56

what you celebrate. When people

49:58

get together, there's often music involved.

50:01

And if it's music that you don't like,

50:03

maybe seek out the people that you

50:05

love who love that music to

50:08

help you connect. And it's

50:10

yeah. It's just it's such a beautiful

50:12

sentiment and Susan Rogers,

50:15

thank you so much for being in on

50:17

inquiring minds. I could talk to you forever.

50:20

Thank you so much for inviting

50:23

me on, letting me talk about

50:25

this wonderful topic that I love

50:27

so well. And and I

50:29

I'm I'm I'm very grateful and

50:31

I hope people do take

50:33

a closer listen to the music that

50:35

they love best and go into that

50:37

little private space in your head and

50:39

try to analyze what it is about this

50:41

record that just makes you weaken the knees

50:44

you'll discover something about yourself in the

50:46

process.

50:50

So that's it for another episode. Thanks

50:53

for listening. And if you want to hear more, don't

50:55

forget to subscribe. If you'd like to get

50:57

an ad free version of the show, consider supporting

50:59

us at patreon dot com slash inquiry minds.

51:02

I want to especially thank David Noelle,

51:04

Herring Jang, Sean Johnson, Jordan

51:06

Miller, Kyle Ryhala, Michael Galgul,

51:08

Eric Clark, Yuchy Lynn, Clark

51:11

Lindgren, Joel, Stephen Meyer, Eyewall,

51:13

Dale Master, and Charles Boyle. Inquiring

51:15

Mines is produced by Adam Isaac. I'm

51:18

your host, Andreyvus Contus, See you

51:20

next time.

51:39

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