0:04

DW. Inside

0:06

Europe.

0:12

Hello, and welcome. I'm Kate

0:14

Lekoc in Germany. On today's

0:16

program, president

0:17

Putin has made over nuclear threats

0:20

against Europe and a reckless

0:22

disregard for the responsibilities

0:25

of the non proliferation regime. Now,

0:29

Russia's calling calling

0:31

up more soldiers. join the

0:33

fight.

0:34

The week the game changed, what

0:36

does Russia's military escalation mean

0:38

for Ukraine and its allies? Water

0:41

under the bridge, the Estonian town with

0:43

a Russian twin just across the river,

0:46

a rock and a hard right place, Europe

0:48

between the Swedish and Italian elections,

0:51

both stories and more coming up on

0:53

the program.

0:57

The security situation

1:00

in Europe is critical following Vladimir

1:02

Putin's announcement of Russia's

1:04

first military draft since

1:06

the Second World War. The

1:09

conscription at this stage will be partial,

1:11

applying only to reservists. Meanwhile,

1:15

Putin has stepped up his nuclear

1:17

rhetoric, threatening that Russia

1:19

is prepared to use all

1:21

means to defend the territorial integrity

1:24

of Russia, which, depending the

1:26

results of hastily called elections in

1:28

Russian controlled regions, could

1:30

soon be interpreted as including about

1:32

fifteen percent of Ukrainian territory.

1:36

In order to make sense of what's

1:38

going on and what it all might mean

1:40

going forwards, I turned

1:42

to doctor Hannah Notter. senior

1:44

research associates with the Vienna Center

1:47

for disarmament and nonproliferation.

1:50

So I think the probable significance of

1:53

of these three things together,

1:55

announcing partial mobilization, announcing

1:58

the holding of those sham we

2:00

have to call them what they are, sham referendum

2:03

in Russian occupied territories, plus

2:05

the the renewed nuclear saber rattling

2:08

I think the combination of those three

2:10

factors is what I would call an

2:12

attempt at preemptive escalation. So

2:14

I think there's a hope on the Russian side

2:16

that these things together will

2:19

shock the international community and

2:21

will shock the Ukrainians and

2:23

compel a ceasefire or at least

2:25

slow down Western support for Ukraine.

2:28

Because the Kremlin needs this face

2:30

of the war to end as soon as possible,

2:33

It's not been going well. We've seen the

2:35

recent counter offensive on the Ukrainian side.

2:38

The Kremlin needs the space of the war to

2:40

end. to reconstitute its

2:42

forces to repair itself and to rebuild.

2:44

So I think they hope to freeze the situation

2:47

at a minimum to prevent further

2:49

counter offensive. And I wanna add one

2:51

for the element here. I

2:53

think we also shouldn't forget that we

2:55

in Europe, in the Wests, in

2:57

Ukraine, are approaching

3:00

the fall and winter with rising energy

3:02

prices likely across Europe. So I think

3:04

there's also perhaps a calculation on the

3:06

Russian side that If you both

3:08

escalate in Ukraine and scare

3:11

people and instill fear by nuclear

3:13

blackmail, plus you

3:15

have rising costs of the war, which are

3:17

increasingly being felt across European

3:19

societies, that the combination of

3:21

those things could lead to decreasing

3:23

decreasing support for Ukraine and

3:26

for Ukraine's resistance in the west.

3:28

So I think that is probably the

3:30

Russian strategy here going into the

3:32

winter. The

3:35

EU has accused president Putin of

3:37

a very dangerous nuclear gamble.

3:39

How acute is the threat of nuclear

3:42

escalation right now? he wants to

3:44

basically send

3:46

a message

3:47

that after those referendum, those

3:49

territories, and we're talking here about,

3:51

I believe, around fifteen percent of

3:54

Ukraine's territory. Those

3:56

will be part of the Russian Federation, and

3:58

they will be defended as

3:59

territories of the Russian Federation.

4:02

It goes beyond Russian nuclear

4:05

doctrine. If we look at the the

4:07

most recent document, the basic principles

4:09

of state

4:09

policy of twenty twenty, that

4:12

talks about the

4:13

possibility of using nuclear weapons when

4:15

the very existence of the Russian state

4:17

is in jeopardy. Now I think we can all agree

4:20

that the existence of the Russian state

4:22

and territorial integrity are not the

4:24

same thing. So Putin is really improvising

4:27

again and explicitly linking

4:29

nuclear threats to the evolving military

4:31

situation in Ukraine.

4:32

Now, how acute is the threat

4:35

you asked? I

4:36

think first of all, we have to acknowledge

4:38

that this rhetoric

4:39

is a sign of weakness. The

4:42

next thing to say is that, you know,

4:44

people often ask, at which

4:46

point will Putin escalate to nuclear

4:48

use? There is not this one

4:50

line, this one irrevocable trigger

4:52

that we can point to that could trigger Nukem's.

4:54

It is at the end of the day, his call

4:57

This makes the situation ripe

4:59

with uncertainty and that

5:01

is exactly the intention. It's supposed

5:03

to scare people On the other

5:05

hand, one has to say that we

5:07

have seen no apparent changes to

5:09

Russia's actual nuclear posture

5:11

besides some personnel increases since

5:14

the

5:14

war in Ukraine began. So the

5:16

risk of escalation, including

5:19

with non conventional weapons, is not

5:21

zero.

5:22

But there's also no need to panic

5:24

now. One has to read this for what it is,

5:26

which is a sign of weakness. And

5:28

perhaps one final thing to say

5:30

here I do believe that president Putin

5:33

cares about his legacy.

5:33

In fact, I would say he's obsessed

5:36

with his legacy, and he also

5:38

cares about his relations with the non

5:40

west the global south,

5:42

China, India, whose support

5:44

he increasingly needs, especially

5:46

in light of Western sanctions, and

5:48

he must realize that

5:50

using nuclear weapons would be such

5:52

a game changer,

5:54

the break of such taboo that

5:57

Russia would find itself entirely isolated

5:59

internationally

5:59

after taking such a step.

6:02

What's

6:02

your sense of the impact that

6:05

the partial mobilization announcement

6:08

is having or might have on

6:10

Vladimir Putin domestically.

6:13

Flight

6:13

ticket out of Moscow, for instance,

6:15

estambolo Yerevan. We are sold out

6:17

pretty quickly. We had a few protests

6:19

across Russian cities. Though

6:21

one has to say, that those were

6:23

relatively small in scale.

6:26

And just speaking to my contacts

6:28

in Moscow, I mean, there is intensified

6:30

discussion among people

6:32

in

6:32

families about

6:34

what all this means for Russian society,

6:36

not necessarily

6:37

how one could be impact on

6:39

a personal level now imminently.

6:42

But, you know, there's there's worries about

6:44

the future. What if there's a second or a

6:46

third wave of mobilization There

6:48

were also many rumors yesterday about

6:51

imminent border closures that

6:53

people who would show up at protests

6:55

could be immediately drafted and such things. So

6:57

I think there's the great uneasiness in

6:59

the air. And people who were previously

7:02

disengaged from this war are

7:04

now more alerts. Doctor

7:06

Hannan Notter, their senior research

7:09

associates at the Vienna Center

7:11

for disarmament and non proliferation.

7:14

The escalations in

7:16

Russia's war strategy will have been

7:18

anxiously watched around the world this week

7:20

but particularly in countries which

7:22

like Ukraine share a border

7:24

with Russia. Estonia is

7:26

one such country, The Baltic

7:28

Nation achieved independence from the

7:30

Russian Soviet Union in nineteen

7:32

ninety one, but cultural

7:34

and linguistic ties remained strong.

7:36

particularly in Nava, a

7:39

town at the eastern extreme point of

7:41

Estonia on the West Bank of

7:43

the Nava River, which forms the Estonia

7:45

Russia International Border. Ben

7:48

Batke sent us this report from

7:50

there, which begins at this station

7:52

nava culture and music festival,

7:54

where the community was attempting

7:56

to soothe tensions

7:57

with music.

8:03

When

8:03

I posted stories on

8:06

my social media about our

8:08

upcoming show. A lot of

8:10

our audience were right

8:12

into me. Please be careful because

8:14

there are a lot of fans of what he needs,

8:16

my musicians didn't want

8:18

to have some people with

8:20

Russian flags. But I said that

8:23

we are in Estonia, and we

8:25

are fighting for peace. We are not in

8:27

Russia. I don't get how

8:29

you can be fond of voting

8:31

especially when you don't live in

8:33

Russia. Natarishchenko,

8:34

leader of Ukrainian Electrovok

8:37

band onuka, was skeptical about

8:39

performing in Estonia's easternmost city of

8:41

Natar. Only Estonia's throw away

8:43

from Russia. At first

8:45

glance, the thirty seven year old's concerns

8:47

seem warranted. Almost all of

8:49

none of us fifty four thousand inhabitants are

8:51

Russian speaking, and many older people

8:53

remain loyal to Vladimir Putin.

8:55

In contrast to the capital, Talin, not

8:57

a single Ukrainian flag is hoisted

9:00

here. the cityscape is dominated

9:02

by gray five story Soviet

9:04

buildings. Yet despite the

9:06

residents' cultural, historical, and

9:08

linguistic ties to Moscow, few

9:10

of them actually want to live in Russia.

9:12

Norvaz, not Estonian.

9:14

It's not Russian or or

9:16

something else. It's pro European

9:18

definitely. but at the same time,

9:20

with some nostalgic thoughts,

9:23

sometimes those local people

9:25

say that they do have a Russian

9:27

soul. That's then a Larshenko. The

9:29

twenty nine year old grew up in Nattva, an

9:31

independent Estonia, but the legacy of

9:33

nearly half a century of Soviet occupation

9:35

was still very fresh. When

9:37

I was a kid in nineties, it

9:40

was a unique thing when

9:42

you hear some Estonian

9:44

language, somebody speaking on

9:46

streets, so on and you are, like, just staring at

9:48

this people and looking, what

9:50

language did you speak? And, like, it's

9:52

something exotic,

9:54

I could say. I was a translator

9:56

for my mom. You are coming to the

9:58

shop and everything is already in his turn in

10:00

language. For example, you are buying in milk and

10:02

they're just reading in sonium team and

10:04

he need to translate that. It's a molecular.

10:08

So it was a challenging time. Tennessee

10:10

is used to navigating and mediating

10:12

between Nardva's Estonian and Russian

10:14

worlds. Last year, he became the

10:16

youngest member of the city council.

10:18

In the wake of Russia's annexation

10:20

of Crimea, Estonia launched a

10:22

variety of cultural programs aimed at

10:24

integrating the country's roughly three

10:26

hundred and fifteen thousand ethnic

10:28

Russians who account for about one

10:30

quarter of the population nationally and

10:32

significantly more in Nada, where

10:34

some ninety five percent of inhabitants speak

10:36

Russian as their mother tongue some

10:38

thirty percent carry Russian passports.

10:42

Every third inhabitant is a citizen

10:44

of the Russian Federation. Then

10:47

Russia in the United Ukraine. What's

10:49

small? We have very high

10:51

inflation and electricity has become

10:53

very expensive. Unemployment has also been

10:56

going up because we don't get Russian

10:58

tourists due to the visa ban. And

11:00

finally, there's the war of the statues.

11:02

That's

11:02

not us mayor, company like

11:04

She's been caught in the crossfire of the war

11:07

of the statues for seven months.

11:09

The key flashpoint, a

11:11

Soviet tank displayed on the stone wall to

11:13

commemorate the crossing of the Red Army into

11:15

Estonia in nineteen forty four.

11:28

The tank money meant

11:30

was removed in August. a small group

11:32

of locals has attempted to hold a vigil at

11:34

the site ever since. They wait

11:36

until it's dark and its way to the beet.

11:39

Flowers and candles are everywhere. Estonia

11:42

welcoming tens of thousands of Ukrainian

11:44

refugees with open arms and providing different

11:46

kinds of assistance to them has added

11:48

to the rousafone population of Estonia

11:50

feeling disadvantaged. Denis

11:53

Lachengou says that unlike older

11:55

generations, he and many other well

11:57

integrated young people understand the reasons for

11:59

removing the statues. But they are

12:01

critical of the timing as it tore families

12:03

apart for the second time

12:05

this year. the healing process

12:07

after the twenty fourth February when

12:10

these families were broken, you know,

12:12

because of different faults and

12:14

different perspectives. it was

12:16

healed. And after some one

12:18

month, we we we make

12:20

this the same thing again. Those

12:22

integrated people who were

12:24

pro staying in pro Ukrainian, who war

12:26

against the monuments, even they were told

12:28

that it's not a good time. Please

12:30

do it later. It will

12:32

be really painful. Ivangrohe

12:41

NAVA's Russian twin on the other side of the river

12:44

reacted to the tank removal by erecting its

12:46

own tank monument. InNAVA,

12:49

around one hundred low of all ages gathered

12:51

to witness the ceremony from the opposite

12:53

bank.

12:54

I came out

12:56

here today show my support and

12:58

solidarity against the tank removal. It's

13:01

all sad and wrong. We

13:03

commemorated all holidays at the

13:05

tank every year, and all the

13:07

marriage registrations took place

13:09

there. It was sacred. It's not

13:11

just Soviet statues that have disappeared.

13:14

Following Moscow's invasion of Ukraine,

13:16

Estonia banned several of the Kremlin's propaganda

13:18

channels and raised the budget of its own

13:20

Russian language TV channel. Estonian

13:22

media and cultural events like the station

13:25

Narava festival have also received

13:27

generous funding.

13:31

we'd already than a yoga know they

13:34

decide to maybe they saw

13:37

us

13:39

Music

13:40

week britney motherlode ever seen them into

13:42

the zone

13:42

always

13:45

brings people together, and it helps

13:47

to talk about difficult to

13:49

talk things out. But it's

13:51

also to find common ground and to leave

13:53

with new ideas. Over

13:56

the years, Station Nava has become more

13:58

and more a meeting point for locals

14:00

and the people from talent. I hope

14:02

the situation will calm down,

14:04

but we'll continue to live with a negative

14:06

consequence for two, five,

14:08

ten years.

14:19

At the station Narava festival,

14:21

Estonian and Russian speakers from near

14:23

and far indeed seem to find some common

14:25

ground thanks to the unifying force of

14:27

live music.

14:36

This was perhaps most evident in the

14:38

audience's enthusiastic reactions to

14:40

Ukrainian band on Nuka's rousing

14:42

dance rhythms. In the end,

14:44

Siena Natarishenko's concerns about having

14:46

to contend with Putin friendly locals

14:48

were unfounded.

14:51

this venue was

14:54

terrifying me in advance maybe

14:56

a month ago, but it was a

14:59

great support from the audience

15:01

and they saw a lot of Ukrainians because

15:03

they were singing

15:05

some tunes from the songs in Ukrainian.

15:07

It was big pleasure for us

15:09

to play here.

15:14

TW,

15:20

Nadava.

15:25

The situation

15:27

in Europe is, of course, changing

15:29

rapidly at the moment. For up

15:31

to date information, you can

15:33

download the DW Breaking News

15:35

app or follow the DW

15:37

Europe handle on Twitter. I'm

15:40

Kate Lekoc in Germany. You're

15:42

listening to

15:42

Inside Europe.

16:15

Whilst the escalation of Russia's war

16:17

in Ukraine gave the impression of

16:19

vitigorous momentum in Europe this

16:21

week. In other respects, the week

16:23

was actually something of a caesura.

16:26

the time after the Swedish elections on

16:29

September eleventh and before

16:31

the Italian elections on

16:33

Sunday twenty fifth of September.

16:35

In the Swedish elections,

16:37

the far right Sweden Democrats

16:40

surged to become second

16:42

largest party and the kingmaker

16:44

in a victorious right and

16:46

center right wing block. In

16:48

Italy, on Sunday, the block now

16:50

headed by Georgi Mollone's far

16:52

right Fratelli D'Talia or brothers

16:54

of Italy party is

16:56

widely expected to win. Meaning

16:58

that for the first time since the

17:00

Second World War, Italy could

17:02

be governed by the leader of a party with

17:04

its roots in Italy's fascist

17:07

past. In order to

17:09

get a clearer picture of brothers

17:11

of Italy and where they've come from.

17:13

I spoke with Pietro Castelli

17:15

Gadinara, associate professor

17:17

of political communication at

17:19

the university led to Proxel and

17:21

Mary Currie fellow at

17:23

Sientes Po. So, Fratelli

17:25

D'Alle is a relatively

17:28

recent party. In its

17:30

current format, the party was founded

17:32

in two thousand twelve, but

17:34

the party in itself is a

17:37

follow-up the of a

17:39

preexisting party that was called Allianz

17:41

Anatunale or National Alliance

17:44

founded in the mid nineteen nineties

17:47

And itself was

17:49

the natural evolution of

17:51

the preexisting Movimento Sochale

17:54

Italiano, which was a party

17:56

founded in nineteen forty five as

17:59

a neo fascist party

18:01

in a direct continuation with

18:04

Italian fascist party.

18:06

A number of

18:08

elements of brothers of Italy

18:11

link back to the fascist past. Most

18:13

notably, is the symbol of the past,

18:15

which is the true color flame

18:17

that featured in the

18:19

symbols of all of those

18:21

preexisting parties since nineteen

18:23

forty five. Another element

18:25

of continuity that exists

18:27

between brothers of Italy and its

18:29

predecessors is the personnel.

18:31

A vast majority

18:33

of the members of brothers of

18:35

Italy and of its leadership started

18:38

out their political career within parties

18:41

that took direct inspiration

18:43

from Italian fascism. Georgia Maloney

18:46

herself, even though she is

18:48

she is a young politician. She

18:50

started out as a kid, as a youth

18:52

activist for Italian

18:54

social movement. Italian social movement

18:56

was in Europe the most successful

18:59

neo fascist party at

19:01

least until the nineteen eighty.

19:04

How can it have come to this? I mean,

19:06

how can we be sitting here in twenty

19:09

twenty two talking about the

19:11

very likely election victory

19:13

of a party its roots

19:14

in

19:15

Italy's fascist past. Well,

19:18

there's

19:18

no single explanation for

19:22

that. what is sure is

19:24

that for fascism in Italy, we have

19:26

seen a process that

19:28

is not unique to Italy.

19:31

It's a process that we seen in many other

19:33

European countries when it comes

19:35

to far right political parties.

19:38

And that's the process that in political

19:40

science, we address as the mainstreaming

19:43

of far right ideas.

19:45

And it is the process by

19:47

which parties that are not far right

19:49

in and of themselves have

19:52

progressively adopted the main narratives, the

19:54

main themes, the main frames

19:56

and issues of the far

19:58

right. Italy has

19:59

been a very special

20:02

case in that respect.

20:04

When most of

20:06

the other countries in Europe

20:08

were still applying a cordon Santander,

20:11

strategy with respect to the far right? In Italy, the

20:13

far right has been admitted, accepted

20:16

within the political mainstream.

20:20

the the juncture in Italy is

20:22

probably nineteen ninety two when

20:24

the CleanHands operation

20:26

has revolutionized the

20:28

the political landscape. And

20:30

a number of new political

20:32

actors came about, and it was at

20:34

that time that Tycoon

20:38

Silvio Balosconi entered the

20:40

political scene and founded its own

20:42

parties. And ever since ever

20:44

since its first government in nineteen ninety

20:47

four, Sifu Berosconi has

20:49

accepted far right

20:51

political parties. within the

20:53

governmental majority. And

20:55

today, again, the right

20:57

wing coalition encompasses

20:59

the same components as

21:01

in the A liberal component

21:04

associated to Beruscony's

21:07

personalistic parties, a

21:09

Christian Democrat or centrist component

21:12

and a radical right component

21:14

that today comprises

21:17

both Fratelli Dittalia and

21:19

Salvini's League. the

21:21

reasons for the success of

21:24

Fratelli, Italy have to be found with

21:26

the disappointment of

21:28

Italian citizens with respect to

21:30

all other options. The strategy

21:33

of of George Ameloni that

21:35

has set her party apart

21:37

in the Italian political landscape

21:39

has been the choice

21:41

of consistently remain in

21:43

the opposition. So in

21:46

that respect, John Jamiloni is yet

21:48

another example of a

21:50

populist leader that has

21:52

gained success by captivating the

21:54

electorate. with anti establishment

21:57

rhetorical. But then when it comes to the

21:59

election, the party has reconstituted

22:01

the same alliance that has

22:04

characterized right wing politics

22:06

in Italy at least

22:08

over the past twenty years. I'd

22:09

like to widen the focus now

22:12

if that's alright and just talk about

22:14

Italy in the wider European context.

22:16

Last week in Sweden, we

22:18

saw the far right Sweden Democrats

22:21

surged to become the second largest party

22:23

after the social democrats and

22:25

leaders of a victorious

22:27

right wing block. you'll have

22:30

been following that election very

22:32

closely. What are your thoughts? There

22:34

are some differences

22:35

that are mainly linked

22:38

to the different political landscapes

22:40

that can be found in

22:42

Scandinavian context and in Southern

22:45

Europe. But in general, we

22:47

are witnessing a

22:49

very similar process. The

22:51

process is similar in that, Sweden

22:53

Democrats are also a political

22:55

party that is rooted in

22:57

neo Nazi social movement. That

22:59

over the years has institutionalized,

23:03

It has embedded practical right

23:05

positions on key issues

23:07

such as immigration

23:09

and Islam and

23:11

law and order. The main difference that

23:13

we see is a difference of timing.

23:16

The moment by which those ideas

23:18

have become politically accepted

23:21

in the party system in

23:23

Italy was over twenty

23:25

years ago. In Sweden, until now,

23:27

there has been a more effective

23:30

chordans and that would always

23:32

limit the Sweden Democrats to

23:34

gear position. I was

23:35

speaking to Pietro Castelli Gatinara,

23:38

whose research at the

23:40

university, Lieb du Poincel, and France

23:42

Po examines political

23:44

competition in Europe, the far right,

23:46

and the relationship between media

23:48

and protest. You're

23:50

listening to Inside Europe.

23:52

I'm Kate Lekoc

23:54

in Germany.

24:48

This is

24:53

inside Europe, and I'm Kate

24:55

Leckcock in Germany. Coming

24:57

up in the next half hour. Please look after

25:00

this bear. Immigration lawyer,

25:02

Collin Yeo, imagines Paddington

25:04

as his client.

25:05

his first problem is that he's

25:07

he's committed a criminal offense by

25:10

entering the United Kingdom. But that's just the

25:12

kind of stuff problems because he then

25:14

end up going through the asylum process,

25:16

which is very

25:18

bureaucratic. No

25:19

country for young men

25:21

Why are so many Albanians fleeing

25:24

their country? Bottoms up and

25:26

Durnles out. October vested back

25:29

then there is this.

25:32

We

25:33

spread seed over this and then when

25:35

the birds pick on it, we

25:38

get this I'm not even going to attempt

25:40

to explain to you what that was. You're gonna

25:42

have to stay tuned to

25:44

find out.

25:53

Elizabeth

25:53

the second queen of

25:55

the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth realms

25:57

was laid to rest this week

25:59

in

25:59

London's Westminster

26:01

Abbey.

26:07

The

26:09

queue of people waiting for the

26:12

chance to pay their respects at her

26:14

coffin during her five day lying in

26:16

state had become so

26:18

long that it even had its own Wikipedia page.

26:21

Prominent amongst the tributes left by

26:23

members of the public were miniature

26:25

soft versions of the beloved

26:27

British children's book character,

26:30

Paddington Bear, created by Michael

26:32

Bond in nineteen fifty

26:34

eight. Some people even left marmalade sandwiches.

26:36

A reference to a television

26:39

sketch filmed at the time of the Queen's

26:41

Platinum Jubilee

26:42

earlier in the year.

26:44

Thank you

26:45

for having me. I do

26:47

hope you're having a lovely cup

26:49

of tea.

26:51

Tea? Oh,

26:52

yes, please.

26:59

Paddington's adoption as a

27:02

symbol of the British

27:03

establishment is in many

27:05

ways of unlikely one. A

27:07

little lost bear who arrives in London as a

27:09

stowaway on a boat from

27:10

as he so mysteriously puts

27:13

it, darkest Peru, Peddington

27:16

is after all an immigrant

27:18

and as such would be in

27:20

need of a good immigration lawyer should he

27:22

be making that journey today.

27:24

really Luckily, We've

27:25

found one for him. So my

27:27

name is Collinio. I'm a a barrister in

27:29

the United Kingdom. I specialize in

27:32

immigration and asylum law.

27:34

I have to say, I I didn't really know

27:36

Paddington very well as a child myself.

27:38

So it was only sort

27:41

of when I had my own children that

27:43

I I started to get a bit more

27:45

into Paddington because I was aware of Paddington

27:48

had become a kind of symbol for

27:51

asylum and immigration campaigners

27:54

because of his status as

27:56

a a new arrival and as an observer

27:58

in the United

27:59

Kingdom. If

28:01

Paddington were to come to

28:03

the UK today, what

28:05

would his reception be? What challenges would he

28:08

face? Well, his

28:09

first problem is that he's he's

28:11

committed a criminal offense.

28:14

by entering the United Kingdom. And

28:16

I'm not sure that was actually the case when

28:18

Michael Bond was originally writing back

28:20

in the the nineteen fifties. I think

28:22

their immigration law really kind

28:24

of grew up and developed in the

28:26

nineteen sixties, the nineteen nineteen

28:28

seventies. If he's found to be a

28:30

child later, then he

28:32

wouldn't be prosecuted. And I know many asylum

28:34

seekers actually are prosecuted for for

28:36

illegal entry, but that's just the kind of

28:38

start of his problems because he then

28:40

end up going through the asylum process, which

28:42

is very bureaucratic. And it's a

28:44

real contrast with the way that

28:46

Paddington in the stories is

28:49

simply welcomed into a

28:51

family and effectively fostered

28:54

or adopted by that family. without

28:56

any interference from the state or any state

28:58

processes getting involved.

29:00

Would Paddington today

29:03

be likely to receive a

29:05

Rwanda letter, a letter

29:07

notifying him of the home

29:09

office's intention. to him

29:11

to Rwanda as part of

29:13

their current policy of offshoring

29:16

immigration. There

29:17

there's a real

29:19

possibility that he would actually. Let's

29:22

move on from considering him as a as a

29:24

child there. Michael Bond is

29:26

very sketchy about Paddington's actual

29:28

age in the kind childlike, but we

29:30

don't we don't know that he's a child.

29:32

And, you know, the home office is very skeptical

29:34

of people claiming be

29:37

children and and tends to find that they're actually

29:39

adults. So let's let's imagine him as an

29:41

adult. And, yes, the new

29:43

policy on dealing with asylum seekers

29:45

arriving in the way that Paddington does unlawfully

29:47

on a boat is to serve them

29:49

with a removal notice to

29:51

Rwanda. And the idea is that this

29:53

will somehow put

29:55

off other people from

29:57

arriving in a similar way in

29:59

future. So, yeah, he'd need

29:59

legal advice very quickly if that were

30:02

the case.

30:03

Paddington, of course, makes a big journey. He makes

30:06

the journey from darkest Peru to

30:08

London. However, in recent years,

30:10

he's made another type of journey, a

30:12

metaphorical one. He's gone from

30:14

being the quintessential outsider

30:16

to being almost an establishment figure.

30:18

He's had to you with the queen. People have

30:20

been leaving Paddington toys and

30:22

marmonade sandwiches in memory

30:25

of the queen. What do

30:27

you make of

30:27

this transformation.

30:29

I I find it very interesting because

30:32

we see this happening in real life

30:34

as well where somebody who arrives in the way that Paddington

30:36

does without prior authorization, you

30:40

know, this this committing this offensive

30:42

illegal entry, they're very much the

30:44

bad migrants. People who arrive in small

30:46

boats are being really

30:48

demonized in the press and by the

30:50

home office. and

30:52

yet somebody once they've actually

30:54

acquired their refugee status. Once

30:56

they've been in the country for a few

30:59

years, they often, I transform into

31:01

into the good migrants. Somebody who

31:03

is a success story has

31:06

integrated and

31:08

somehow is differentiated from

31:11

from all the others who are still arriving,

31:13

whereas actually it's it's the same person and they've

31:15

magically transformed the kind

31:17

of the process of of them

31:19

acquiring immigration status and

31:21

becoming lawful. It seems to have

31:23

magically transformed them from being

31:25

a very bad person into into

31:27

being a very good person. And and that

31:29

seems to be the sorts of journey that

31:31

that Paddington's been on from being,

31:33

you know, a kind of new entrance, literally

31:35

arriving on a boat, to to being lauded, being,

31:37

you know, shown in a video, obviously,

31:39

not not really, with with the queen, and and that

31:41

that's what's triggered a lot of these these marbling

31:44

sandwiches and so on presumably. and

31:46

he's an establishment figure now, it's quite

31:48

the transformation. You sound almost

31:50

hopeful. I mean, is there a sense in which

31:52

you think that, well, if the British public can

31:56

take Paddington to their hearts like

31:58

this, then there may be hope

31:59

for the real life Paddington's

32:02

out there.

32:02

Well, I I suppose so. And in some ways, I'm

32:05

a bit despairing though, that people can't

32:07

see that this is the same person. You

32:09

know, it is somebody who arrived on a

32:11

small boat. and yet, you know,

32:13

they they weren't really a bad person

32:15

when they arrived, that they haven't

32:17

magically transformed, in fact, they're still the

32:19

same human being. So,

32:21

yeah, the the outcomes eventually

32:23

are good, but a lot of asylum seekers

32:25

who are arriving there, they are being put

32:27

through a kind of purgotry

32:30

almost where they endure

32:32

this really prolonged

32:35

asylum process. which is taking years at the

32:37

moment for for decisions to come in,

32:39

almost all of them are ultimately recognized

32:41

as refugees. And yet in the meantime, they're

32:43

not allowed to work they're kept

32:45

on kind of distribution level support that demonized in

32:47

the press. And then, you know,

32:50

eventually, they're a genuine refugee. They get

32:52

this status. And they're

32:54

able to transition to being being a good

32:56

migrant. And it's a shame that we

32:58

can't recognize their

32:59

humanity if that's the right word when

33:01

we're talking about Paddington. a bit

33:03

earlier in the process. I was

33:05

speaking to Colin Yeung, immigration

33:07

barrester, and author of welcome

33:11

to Britain. fixing our broken

33:13

immigration system, which is out with

33:15

ByteDak publishing. Now,

33:17

were Patterson to be arriving by

33:19

Boats in the UK today? There

33:21

is a good

33:21

chance that he would not be from Peru,

33:23

but from Albania. The home

33:26

office statistics released last

33:28

month showed that Albanians

33:30

account for six out of ten migrant

33:32

crossings of the channel. That figure

33:34

caught our attention and here at Inside

33:36

Europe, and we wanted to get to the bottom of

33:39

it. Why is a country

33:41

currently in the process of negotiating

33:43

EU membership experiencing such

33:45

dramatic levels of

33:47

immigration. We contacted

33:49

Alice Taylor, a freelance journalist

33:51

living in Albania and

33:53

asked her to investigate

33:54

for us. Walking around

33:56

the Albanian capital

33:59

of

33:59

Tarana, Many of the people you

34:02

meet will tell you they dream of a

34:04

life abroad.

34:04

Life

34:08

in the UK will be much better than here as many friends and

34:11

family who are there now have told me.

34:13

I want to move

34:15

from Albania mainly because

34:17

of unemployment and corruption. Here, I do not see

34:19

any future because all the young people are

34:21

leaving day by day.

34:24

Jayzed, who

34:24

does not want to reveal his full name, is a

34:27

veterinary student in Toronto University.

34:29

He struggles to

34:31

cover his costs and

34:33

cannot help his family who, as per

34:35

Albanian tradition, rely on the son of

34:37

the house to contribute.

34:40

So he's decided to travel to France and then to the UK by boat

34:42

in search of a better life. While

34:45

he said this is the cheapest

34:46

way for him to get there,

34:49

it will leave

34:52

him in-depth to

34:54

traffickers. On the surface,

34:56

the country seems to be thriving.

34:59

But

34:59

according to the latest statistics from the World

35:02

Bank, twenty percent of the population

35:04

lives

35:04

in poverty, the highest rate in the

35:06

region. The EU statistical

35:08

office Eurostat also

35:09

found that Albanians are the utmost risk

35:12

of poverty on the continent, with

35:14

over fifty percent teetering

35:15

on the brink. Georgia

35:18

Viermo is a program director,

35:20

the Albanian Institute for Democracy

35:22

and Mediation. He believes that

35:24

the economic crisis has a part to play.

35:26

The fact that youngsters in the thirties

35:29

with young families or non

35:31

tells us that we need to dig

35:33

deeper and go beyond

35:36

the pure economic reasons. So I would say

35:38

disillusionment lack of believe

35:40

that their life will look

35:43

better in this country. I'm

35:46

afraid that we still haven't

35:48

seen the real impact of

35:51

the economic crisis hitting the

35:53

country.

35:53

But some believe the reason for this latest migration

35:55

wave can be found in Albania's complex

35:58

and bloody

36:00

past. Albania

36:04

was ruled

36:06

by the brutal communist dictator,

36:08

Envahogen, for almost fifty

36:10

years. during which time

36:12

it was almost completely isolated from

36:14

the rest of the world. Tens

36:16

of

36:16

thousands of people were killed

36:18

in prison, tortured, and

36:21

persecuted. And six thousand are

36:23

still missing today more than thirty years

36:25

after the regime

36:28

fell. Laurie

36:29

Amy is a

36:32

professor

36:32

in the Department of Writing and Languageistics

36:34

at Georgia Southern University. who's

36:37

lived in Albania for many years and is

36:40

researching links between contemporary

36:42

societal issues and the country's past

36:44

traumatic. Back up

36:45

a couple more steps. and

36:47

look at the history of

36:50

the development of Albania as a

36:52

nation state and put

36:54

communism within

36:55

that larger history. what

36:56

we see is the mass

36:58

exodus of Albanians during the first

37:00

Balkan war is nineteen twelve, nineteen thirteen. then

37:03

when the communist government closes

37:07

the borders, that difference between

37:09

the inside and the outside is hugely

37:12

exacerbated. So when the country opens

37:14

again, we have another mass

37:16

exodus. That exodus to ninety one is

37:18

the result of people who've been

37:20

living as visitors literally in the country. We are

37:22

repeating cycles

37:24

that we have seen occur

37:27

the career throughout

37:28

the twentieth century. Lori said Albania's failure

37:30

to reconcile the past is impacting even

37:32

the youngest members of society.

37:34

a society Trauma

37:36

is not a function simply of what happens

37:38

to me. What happens to me

37:40

dictates how I raise my children.

37:44

how I see every

37:46

possibility in the country and around

37:48

me. It's not just that we've had no

37:50

national reconciliation with

37:52

the trauma. We've had

37:54

no historical continuity through

37:57

which we can actually know

37:59

and understand how they need.

38:01

which means that for the young people,

38:03

there is no country

38:06

of their

38:06

own. What is there for

38:09

them here? believes that addressing the traumas of

38:11

the past would enable young Albanians

38:13

to feel a sense of hope and

38:15

belonging, which will result in a desire to

38:17

remain in the country.

38:20

have

38:20

a

38:20

very proud people, a

38:23

people

38:23

who should

38:24

be proud, an

38:26

ancient history. and

38:29

their country gives them nothing to

38:30

be proud of. While

38:32

healing past trauma could help

38:34

stem the flow of

38:36

migrants'

38:36

to the UK and elsewhere.

38:38

Georgia believes it's also the

38:40

job of the UK government to do their

38:42

part. We have people leaving

38:44

the country for the UK for

38:47

economic reasons. But unfortunately, we also have another

38:49

group of people that are

38:51

being offered to migrate

38:53

into the UK by

38:56

the organized crime.

38:57

And unfortunately, here

38:58

I think it's

39:00

not only Albania's fault, but

39:04

I think It's also UK's fault. Jodie is referring to

39:06

criminal gangs active on TikTok,

39:08

Instagram, and Facebook, who

39:10

advertise quick routes into the UK with

39:12

promises of

39:13

a against a fee. As these

39:16

schemes can involve setting people to work

39:18

in the informal economy, cannabis

39:20

firms, or even prostitution once

39:21

they reach the UK's

39:23

doors. He says it's up to the British authorities

39:26

to clamp down. At the end of the day,

39:27

this illegal economic activity

39:30

is taking place in the UK.

39:33

But amongst the

39:35

thousands that flee, hundreds of

39:38

Albanians are

39:38

granted protection in the EU

39:40

and UK every year.

39:42

An

39:42

expert country witness for Albania who consults with Britain's home

39:45

office but wanted to remain anonymous.

39:47

Explain she's worked with many

39:49

who have successfully been granted asylum.

39:52

There are many

39:53

other reasons I have seen for seeking asylum,

39:55

trafficking of women, those

39:57

fleeing plant marriages, and being

40:00

trafficked into prostitution as the

40:02

category with the most cases.

40:04

About one third was successful

40:06

in claiming asylum. Current

40:07

rhetoric leads to fears

40:08

that those with valid asylum claims may

40:11

end up being tied with the same brush

40:13

as those who are leaving for the reason

40:15

for other reasons. But for now, the exact reasons behind

40:17

the latest migration wave of Albertans

40:20

remains complex and subject

40:22

to debate. But one thing

40:24

is clear, this is not a new

40:26

phenomenon and it cannot be solved

40:28

easily. Alice

40:29

Taylor, DW, Terana.

40:31

a complex

40:32

situation there and one that we

40:34

will no doubt be revisiting

40:36

in future

40:37

shows. To make

40:38

sure that you don't miss an episode, you

40:40

can, of course, subscribe to our podcast. And

40:42

if you value our journalism, we'd also

40:45

greatly appreciate it if you could leave us

40:47

a rating since that really does help other people

40:49

to then find us. Thank

40:52

you. You're listening to Inside

40:54

Europe. I'm Kate Lekoc

40:56

in Germany.

41:26

We're going to end the show

41:28

on a cultural note with some experimental ecooper or

41:30

will be revealed very shortly and

41:36

October first. Yes. I know

41:38

that it is September, but trust me,

41:40

October first always starts

41:42

in September. And to

41:43

be honest, I still have not gotten to the bottom of why that is.

41:45

Anyway,

41:45

Germany's world famous beer

41:48

festival is a big

41:50

deal economically for Munich and the

41:52

surrounding region. So there is

41:54

massive relief that after

41:55

a two year coronavirus, It

41:57

is back. Natalie Carney,

41:59

donned her dental. I actually made that bid up. I don't

42:01

know what she was wearing. But anyway, she

42:03

did join the rather

42:06

soggy revelers on the Tafazian visa. Welcome to the

42:08

Octoberans. We are now opening the

42:10

festival ground. It is

42:12

known as one of the

42:15

biggest festivals on the planet. October fest, where

42:17

people from all over the world,

42:19

many in modern takes

42:21

of the traditional varian dress, gather to drink

42:23

overpriced beer from giant one liter glass

42:26

pictures known

42:28

as steins. For the die

42:30

hards who have waited anxiously for the

42:32

last two years, not even the

42:34

pouring rain on the opening day

42:36

could keep keep them away such as Ryan Pincher, a from

42:38

the United States. Unbelievable. It's better than

42:40

I

42:40

thought. The entire thing, the music, the

42:42

atmosphere, everything about it. It's

42:46

crazy. I wasn't expecting it way better. Glu away my expectations.

42:48

The

42:48

reign's kind of a bummer. Huddled under the

42:50

awning of one of the many food tents,

42:52

fellow American Katherine Durn skin

42:55

along with her new husband, marked the end of

42:58

their European honeymoon at the

43:00

festival. We we planned our whole

43:02

Europe trip around really ending up here as our last

43:04

stop. I learned later that I was supposed to get

43:06

engaged on this trip in

43:08

twenty twenty I'm

43:10

in, you know, now here we are married. I

43:12

don't kind of want our money. In

43:14

two thousand twenty,

43:16

in two thousand twenty one, COVID

43:20

ninth teen restrictions prompted the city of Munich to postpone

43:22

the festival. But now with

43:24

the pandemic somewhat under control blow

43:27

globally, the premier of the state

43:29

of Bavaria, Marcus Zoda, is happy to

43:31

see the festival

43:32

return.

43:36

I'm very happy. I've campaigned hard for this to

43:39

take place. We need joy to

43:41

leave. We need tradition and

43:43

we need support. and

43:45

that is why I'm very happy that the October

43:48

first is taking place again.

43:50

It's a magnificent festival,

43:52

a great brand

43:54

for Bavaria. and

43:54

we're very proud that it can take place again. In two

43:56

thousand nineteen, close

43:57

to six and a half million

43:59

guests

43:59

visited toberfest

44:02

and brought in over one point two billion euros

44:04

to the city of Munich. Now

44:06

in its one hundred and eighty

44:09

seventh year, the forty two hectares

44:11

of festival grounds is hosting close

44:13

to five hundred beer tents, wine

44:15

vendors, and restaurants, along with

44:17

the traditional ride and shows awaiting all those

44:19

young at heart. Yet despite the

44:22

two year hiatus expectations

44:24

of this year's event have

44:27

been muted. While there is excitement to experience the sights

44:29

and sounds, there could be

44:31

some apprehension about turning

44:33

to large crowds, says Jenny Weber, one of

44:36

the twelve thousand employees of this

44:38

year's October fest. I don't

44:40

know. It's very we have a lot of

44:42

people from the US or

44:44

like from Italy or

44:46

Spain. We don't know how the travel

44:48

conditions are to get some

44:50

peace with There are no mask or hygiene regulations,

44:52

which have prompted some medical

44:54

advisers to predict a spike in COVID

44:56

nineteen cases

44:58

and following the festival. As well, organizers have

45:01

suggested dressing warmer this year

45:03

as no outdoor heaters will

45:05

be used in an effort to

45:08

consumption of October fest in previous

45:10

years has run around two point

45:12

seven million kilowatt

45:14

hours, a out into thirteen

45:16

percent of the daily electrical needs

45:18

of the city of Munich. Another

45:21

consideration this year is inflation.

45:24

The cost of that traditional one liter of

45:26

festival beer now runs upwards

45:28

of fourteen euros, an increase of

45:30

fifteen percent from two thousand nineteen.

45:33

but the alcohol content in that

45:35

beer is also up to six point

45:37

four percent. October fest

45:40

will continue rain or shine for

45:43

the next seventeen days, one day longer than

45:45

in past years to coincide with

45:47

a national holiday on October

45:49

third. German reunify occasion

45:52

day, Natalie Carney, DW,

45:56

Munich. How on Earth can you top high

45:58

energy reporting

45:59

like that? With Ecoopera, of course,

46:02

and just to prove to you how

46:04

weird things are about to get, I'm gonna read

46:06

out word for word to the questions

46:08

with which journalist and

46:10

producer Richard Baines began his

46:12

pitch to us. Canbirds

46:14

and the wind play musical instruments.

46:17

and if they can, is the music

46:19

any good? The answer to those

46:21

questions is that according to musician

46:24

and sound enthusiasts, Graeme Leek,

46:26

who's based in Balferon in

46:28

Scotland, they can and it

46:30

is. Working with the royal

46:32

botanical gardens in Scotland and a

46:34

Australia and with grants from public arts bodies. Leak, who's

46:37

originally from Australia, has used

46:39

the sounds created by

46:42

wild birds and the

46:44

environment in both countries

46:46

on specially made instruments to

46:48

create a new work,

46:50

ecooper. And

46:52

this is what it sounds like. First instrument got here

46:54

is what

46:54

I call a sonic tube. It's a length

46:57

of perfect tubing nearly three meters

46:59

long with a microphone inside

47:02

it. It's listening to the environment and mixing the sound of the

47:04

tube with the sound of the environment to sort

47:06

of create a drone. If I moved my

47:09

voice down here, close

47:11

to the end of the tube, you'll hear what my voice sounds

47:13

like when it's being recorded by the

47:16

tube.

47:19

I know we come over

47:21

to the fence, a run of about fifty meters of fence wire

47:24

uninterrupted with quite a lot of

47:26

tension on it. And on the

47:28

end post, there's a

47:30

contact microphone rig, and

47:32

here's the sound of

47:33

the wire. This

47:36

bird feeder is a tree stump

47:38

and it's got some purchase for the birds to land on, but it's also

47:40

got some wires stretched over those purchase.

47:44

And there's microphone

47:46

in the bass. So anywhere that I tap

47:49

on the

47:51

feeder, it makes that

47:53

sound the stringed purchase sound

47:55

like this.

47:57

And some little

48:00

bamboo

48:01

purchase sort

48:03

of have some nice notes as

48:05

well and down and down on

48:08

the ground is a

48:10

zither. It's

48:11

just a board six strings stretched

48:13

across it, and once again

48:15

a contact microphone.

48:19

We spread seed

48:22

over this and then when the birds

48:24

pick on it, we get this kind

48:27

of sound. Ekeloperate came

48:28

out of lockdown. It was

48:30

when we were all planning to do other

48:32

things and suddenly we had to stay home. We've

48:35

had a bird feeder out inside

48:37

our window for many years and I've often watched it

48:39

and thought there must be some very

48:42

interesting music coming out of there and it began

48:44

by making up

48:46

our existing tasting table and then starting to

48:48

make more specialized tables with more

48:50

musical possibilities.

48:54

It's still it out just with me doing this and then I played it to some

48:56

colleagues in Australia and they said, why don't we do

48:58

an international episode? We came

49:00

up with the idea

49:02

of recording simultaneously.

49:04

And so we've recreated

49:06

the instruments of Ecoopera

49:08

and they are in Melbourne.

49:10

We've now recorded two episodes. We

49:14

applied for

49:16

equal funding in Australia by

49:18

the Australian Council for the Arts. and

49:20

with Creative Scotland, and we were successful in both applications.

49:22

We got about fourteen thousand

49:24

from Creative Scotland and a

49:27

similar amount in Australia. Ekooper's

49:30

not just

49:31

sound, it's beautifully filmed as

49:33

well. And this is to really

49:35

give people a clear idea of exactly where

49:37

these sounds are coming from.

49:39

Episode one, the

49:42

rural location of Balfron, which

49:44

happens to be our front garden, and

49:47

the Simultaneous recording was at the Royal

49:49

Potenik Garten, Cranbourne in

49:52

Victoria. Episode two was very

49:54

different to Episode one because we

49:57

ordered in a botanical gardens here at

49:59

Ben Moore

49:59

Gardens. Some friends of mine in

50:02

Australia worked on recreating

50:04

the instruments for me. This fell Wallace

50:06

Williams. He's an ex dairy farmer

50:10

retired

50:10

and he recreated

50:12

the instruments that I'd made here.

50:15

He took that table idea and he expanded on it and he

50:17

put a whole bunch of long metal

50:20

tubes and put wooden discs on top

50:22

and they each had a sort of

50:24

a resin and it

50:26

was

50:27

a beautiful

50:29

instrument. One song bird

50:31

that just sang its little

50:34

heart out. In Benoit, it was just the

50:36

most amazing virtualistic performance from

50:38

this one bird that sang continuously

50:42

while we're recording, and I was just amazed.

50:47

I love sound. And I love

50:50

interesting and different types

50:52

of sound. When I was a kid,

50:54

I used go to my

50:56

grandparents house and they had this fantastic

50:58

metal bed frame that I slept

51:00

on. And I just

51:02

remember, because ditioning my ear on the metal bed end

51:04

and drumming on on the bed end

51:06

for hours and like it was incredible

51:08

sounds in

51:10

there. I wanted to bring these worlds,

51:12

these inner worlds of sound to the the

51:14

listener in a way where we all hear it.

51:18

And I think quite

51:20

quite beautiful.

51:26

We recorded for two hours straight, and we

51:28

don't edit the time line at all.

51:30

We put those two hours together.

51:34

We obviously switch between shots and we mix the audio, but there's

51:36

no shift. This is what happened in

51:38

Australia and at the same

51:40

time as what happened in Scotland.

51:44

The reaction with the piece has been really good. I've had some wonderful

51:46

feedback from people who are

51:48

quite deeply moved by it,

51:50

which has been lovely. It's

51:53

a global love song.

52:20

Richard

52:26

Baines

52:26

was the man behind that haunting sound piece

52:28

from Scotland there. And if

52:30

you'd like to hear more ecologically

52:32

themed stories, then I'd like

52:34

to recommend to you our sister podcast

52:36

living planet. Many

52:38

of our countries are experiencing

52:41

extreme weather patterns. I think the game

52:43

is over, you know. Because it's happening

52:45

more and

52:45

more, and it's no longer this futuristic hypothetical thing. You

52:47

realize, you know, this isn't a

52:49

long, slow evolution of change. This

52:51

is rapid. Living

52:54

plan in it with Charlie Shields and Sam Baker, Environment

52:56

Stories from around the world. And

52:58

you can only take so much

52:59

out of the bank until there's nothing left in

53:01

the bank. And why did

53:04

you swipe you. All monkeys were about to

53:06

disappear before they were lost. No

53:08

other animal there stepped up to

53:10

fill its that is talked to

53:12

them. It's a pitoid. We

53:13

don't even know all the species

53:15

of wild bees that there are.

53:17

Once the

53:18

real burns die,

53:20

the last real swamps dry up.

53:22

Will we enter spaces that

53:24

hold only digital memories of nature

53:26

other disabled people

53:27

have to be recognized in sustainability.

53:30

Usually, it doesn't happen. I think a

53:32

jazzy is

53:32

pissed actually.

53:35

Find

53:35

us wherever you listen

53:37

to podcasts. Inside Europe

53:38

is, of course, also available as

53:42

a podcast. from all the usual podcast

53:43

platforms. That's it for today. This program

53:45

was produced by me, Kate Blacock,

53:48

with help from

53:50

Nick Manton and sound engineers, Michelle Springer,

53:52

and seaman dot com.

53:54

Thanks for tuning in. Inside

53:56

Europe comes to

53:57

you from DW In Bond.