0:07

This is Inside Geneva . I'm

0:09

your host , Imogen folks , and

0:11

this is a Swiss info production . In

0:17

today's programme .

0:18

Hundreds of prisoners were rounded up and taken

0:20

to the National Stadium .

0:22

That you needed to be as strong as possible

0:25

and not to fail and not to

0:27

how could I say confess

0:29

things that put harm out of you .

0:33

That Michel Bachelet would be the number one choice

0:35

in this election was never in doubt .

0:37

I haven't been president twice before being

0:40

a commissioner , I could put myself

0:42

in the shoes on that person

0:44

who was making those decisions and tried to think

0:46

which could be the arguments that would

0:48

convince them that factual rights is

0:50

not a real right thing to do . So it's not .

0:53

I am delighted that the General Assembly has confirmed

0:55

the appointment of Miss Michel Bachelet

0:58

as the new United Nations

1:00

I-Commissioner for Human Rights .

1:02

I mean the Universal Declaration is

1:04

still valid because it gives

1:07

sort of the minimal standards how

1:09

we can live together .

1:15

Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva

1:17

. I'm Imogenfolks . In

1:20

today's programme , we're returning

1:22

to our special series marking

1:24

the 75th anniversary of

1:26

the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

1:28

, and our guest today

1:30

is Michel Bachelet . She

1:33

served as Human Rights Commissioner from

1:35

2018 until 2022

1:38

. And before that , had

1:40

devoted many years to serving

1:42

her native Chile as a government

1:44

minister and twice as its president

1:47

. She joined us virtually from

1:49

Santiago . The link is not

1:51

always the best listener . We apologise

1:54

for that , but what Miss Bachelet

1:56

has to say is well worth your

1:58

time , so stay tuned . I

2:01

began , as always , by asking her

2:03

about her early life and whether

2:05

human rights had always been a focus

2:07

for her .

2:08

Yes , even though maybe at that time people

2:10

would have told me I might not call it human

2:12

rights because probably I was

2:14

not so aware about the concepts

2:17

and the Universal Declaration and so on . But

2:20

since I was a child I was always

2:22

trying to , if I would

2:24

say , ensure that people will

2:26

receive the dignity that they deserve . That

2:29

I felt always was the

2:31

rights of women and the

2:33

women to serve . I

2:36

mean , when you are younger

2:38

, you don't know much , so you said , oh

2:40

, women are the same as men . Of course today . I don't

2:42

think so . I think we might be very

2:44

different , but of course we have , we should have , the

2:47

same rights , the same opportunities .

2:49

As a young woman , though , Michel Bachelet

2:51

, well very aware of the inequalities

2:53

in Chilean society , didn't

2:55

immediately focus on politics

2:57

. Instead , a visit

3:00

with her sick boyfriend to the doctor

3:02

encouraged her to study medicine .

3:04

My boyfriend had a terrible toothache and

3:06

I brought him to an emergency room

3:08

in public health and we had to wait

3:10

for hours and the condition was really bad

3:13

and I said I'm going to study medicine because

3:15

I want to change , I want to ensure

3:17

that people have the health condition and

3:19

the health rights . I mean , maybe

3:21

I didn't use the word rights at that time , but

3:24

it was the same concept , if I may say . And

3:26

in my family they teach me the same . They

3:29

teach me that every human being is equal

3:31

, they serve equalities

3:33

, they serve dignity , respect , and I

3:35

also say that in my Milk

3:37

bottle the word responsibility was

3:39

there , so it was like a big man's responsibility

3:42

in my milk bottle .

3:43

I think September 11th 1973

3:46

, the day of the military coup that overthrew

3:48

Chile's then government .

3:52

After the widespread repression of the first

3:54

few months , the dictatorship set up a network

3:57

of 452 detention

3:59

, torture and execution centres across

4:01

the country .

4:02

But Michel Bachelet was growing up

4:04

in Augusto Pinochet's Chile

4:06

when he and the military

4:08

seized power in 1973

4:11

, immense repression began

4:13

, with political opponents arrested

4:16

, tortured and killed . For

4:18

the young Bachelet , her opposition

4:20

to the dictatorship limited her

4:22

chances as a doctor . Later

4:25

, it brought fear and loss to

4:27

her entire family .

4:29

At that time , first of all , I was getting

4:31

medicine and I tried to work in the public

4:33

sector and they'd be to me Because

4:35

I was against the dictatorship . And

4:38

so I started working in the NGO

4:40

and we worked with the children of the

4:42

people who were in jail , people who were exiled

4:45

, people who were relegated to some parts of the

4:47

country , people who were imprisoned . So

4:49

I was the pediatrician of all those children

4:51

, working for the rights of the children , and

4:53

the NGO was called Programme

4:56

for Childhood . And Third , because

4:58

we couldn't speak about the dictatorship at that time

5:00

and the States of America , as we

5:02

call it , and I was the pediatrician of

5:04

those children and we worked all over the country

5:06

to support families were either

5:08

in prison or killed , executed

5:11

or with enforced disappearments . So

5:13

, yes , human rights during the dictatorship was

5:15

really , really nothing . I mean with

5:17

the children . We achieved that

5:20

the people who were in prison would

5:22

get once a week a visit with

5:24

the children . We got a special

5:26

session for children . So it was very nice

5:28

to see these big guys , all the playing

5:31

with the children and

5:33

bonding , if I may say , with them . And

5:36

they have also the other perspective , with the white . But

5:38

we went to . We were rarely happy because

5:40

of the children were be so damaged

5:42

by the dictatorship you talk

5:45

about helping the children

5:47

of people imprisoned . You , your mother

5:49

, were arrested , yourselves oh

5:52

yeah , yeah , my father was in prison

5:54

and he

5:57

died because of torture . And

5:59

I mean he was in prison because he was a constitutionalist

6:02

, he was against the coup d'etat and the military

6:04

itself . They took him and tortured

6:06

him so he had a heart

6:08

attack and he died because of the heart attack

6:10

in the area jail . And then

6:12

, of course , we were against the dictatorship

6:15

, so we did political work

6:17

, that underground of course . So

6:20

once , once , and that there was a friend

6:22

of my mom I , she and the torture

6:24

gave the name of my mouth and

6:27

then they went to his home and they took us

6:29

, me and my mom , to be at the emergency . That's

6:31

a , that's a torture center

6:33

where people would disappear . So I

6:35

had the opportunity to meet with many other

6:37

women , young women , who were

6:40

from a different party , but people who were

6:42

against the dictatorship . I

6:44

mean what , what you did alone at that

6:46

time when you were in those places that you were

6:48

disappear , you're something . They know where you were

6:50

. It was what for my jail ? No

6:52

, there were jails that buried that tissue . The

6:55

thing is not to know what's going to happen

6:58

, how long that is for the last , what

7:00

will be ? I mean , of course , they separated me from

7:02

my man as well , so I didn't know what

7:04

she was and yeah , but on the other

7:07

hand , you felt that all both

7:09

things were so also what was going on in

7:11

the country , that you needed

7:14

to be as strong as possible and

7:16

not to fail and not to how

7:18

could I say confess things

7:21

that could harm other people .

7:23

The current economic model is a legacy

7:25

of the military dictatorship under Augusto

7:28

Pinochet . The protests

7:30

lasted for months . It was about

7:32

reforming the health system , education

7:34

, the rights of women , minorities

7:36

and indigenous people . The entire

7:39

system was in question , with calls

7:41

to end the Pinochet era constitution

7:43

.

7:43

You from that became

7:46

political and government leader

7:48

in Chile . They

7:50

took some fun , but

7:53

for many people , for

7:56

me outside looking and this is the

7:58

most incredible achievement

8:01

to go from being

8:03

arrested at risk

8:05

of torture to become

8:07

the leader of your country .

8:09

Well , yes , I think it's , because

8:11

one thing that I think is very important

8:14

in people's lives is resilience , and

8:16

for some reason , my mom was very resilient

8:18

and I am very resilient as well . So

8:21

, of course , there was times in my life

8:23

I had so much rage , so much

8:25

anger , maybe hate sometimes

8:28

as well , but then time

8:30

was passing by . We wanted

8:32

back democracy and

8:34

I started saying , okay , we want democracy

8:37

, we want sustainable democracy , we

8:39

need to see how we can

8:41

re-encounter all

8:43

those children , particularly the armed forces

8:46

, that for me were not strangers

8:48

, because I have lived in military

8:50

bases , et cetera , with

8:52

my father , so they were no strangers , but

8:54

they were behaving in a very terrible

8:57

way . But I said to myself

8:59

we need to develop

9:01

again what we call a civic friendship

9:04

. We don't need to say the same

9:06

, we don't need to agree in the

9:08

past , but we need to agree on

9:10

this . And , on the other hand , at

9:12

that time I never thought I would become a leader

9:15

of any new minister , neither

9:17

president .

9:19

Center left candidate Michelle Bachelet has

9:21

been re-elected as Chile's president

9:24

in a landslide victory . Senators and

9:26

ministers .

9:29

To appoint Miss Michelle Bachelet of Chile

9:31

as United Nations High Commissioner

9:33

for Human Rights . It is so

9:35

decided .

9:39

You got those jobs . You served

9:42

your country for many years

9:44

. Some people say , ok

9:46

, I've done my bit now , but you went

9:49

on and took the job of

9:51

UN Human Rights Commissioner

9:53

. What was the thinking behind that

9:55

? Did you want another challenge ? Did

9:58

you think you had unique experience

10:00

?

10:01

Well , the thing is that at

10:04

the beginning , when they asked me to apply

10:06

, I thought no , I've done enough twice

10:09

time . President of the Republic . Ministers

10:11

, I mean my whole life , ministers . When

10:14

I looked at the last time that I went to

10:16

PTA meeting with

10:18

my daughter my youngest daughter was

10:20

like so many years ago , so

10:22

many years . I was not even

10:24

aware of my daughter . I said what

10:26

was the last time , mom , when I was

10:28

in fourth grade and she wasn't

10:31

in university . So it was like I've been

10:33

doing all this thing I need . I think I

10:35

have to do it because I can help myself . When

10:37

I feel that I can contribute and make

10:39

something important and transform for

10:41

a better possibility . I cannot help

10:44

myself or say OK , ok

10:46

. So when Antonio Gutero

10:48

is asking to apply , at the beginning

10:50

I was saying to him look , my mom was old

10:52

the truth is that , living in

10:54

my family for a long time in

10:56

a second place , but the situation

10:59

was very difficult in the world . It was not

11:01

as bad as it can get worse , but

11:03

it was very difficult . So he told me please , michelle

11:05

, please apply , because really I

11:07

need you . And I asked . I talked to

11:09

my mom . She was at that time like 90

11:12

years old and she said to me

11:14

go ahead , go ahead , because this

11:16

is very important . And so

11:18

I met children . I sort of mentioned to them

11:20

and I said , ok , well , so I

11:23

went there . But to be honest , I

11:25

knew the UN , that I knew the UN in New

11:27

York , but I didn't know to watch

11:29

the council . So I started meeting and

11:31

one of the articles that really helped

11:33

me is that it was the impossible job . But

11:36

he , because he says because the head

11:38

commissioner has to be the voice of the boss

11:41

, rest , so you have to denounce situations

11:43

. That needs to be known and try to ensure

11:45

that governments do the right thing . But

11:47

on the other hand , you need to support

11:49

governments and you need to be trusted

11:52

there so they do the right things . And

11:54

on the other hand , in some cases it's not

11:56

, it's not intentional , it's

11:58

a case of lack of capacity

12:00

, so you need to support them with capacity

12:03

building , et cetera , et cetera . So it's

12:05

a very conscious because if you're telling

12:07

you are a bad guy , I thought bad government

12:09

, because you are violating the rights

12:11

of your people , but on the other hand , as

12:13

then , I want to support you . In that sense

12:15

, I feel that the political experience

12:18

is very useful for that , because you

12:20

had to negotiate or to

12:23

put yourself in the shoes of

12:25

the other groups . I mean , having been

12:27

minister , but also particularly being present

12:29

twice before being a commissioner

12:31

, I could put myself in the shoes of

12:34

that person who was making those decisions

12:36

and try to think which could be the arguments

12:39

that were convinced to respect human

12:41

rights is not a really the right thing to do , but also the

12:43

smart thing . That is not only about talking

12:45

about principles and values , because many times

12:47

we don't convince politicians with that unless

12:50

we show them that it's also the smart

12:52

thing to do . And this is also a challenge

12:54

, because with some people , whatever argument you use

12:56

in the world , but also

12:58

being a politician , it helped me

13:00

in the past . It helped me understand

13:03

that if the office had been doing with

13:05

any country , any country in the world , certain

13:08

strategy , that was not working . We

13:10

need to rethink the strategy . I didn't

13:12

want to be the historian of human rights

13:14

. I wanted to have a son . I wanted to

13:16

think people's lives , because the

13:18

historian is an interesting job

13:20

, but not for me . That's not what

13:22

I wanted to do .

13:23

Black Lives Matter yes , all lives matter

13:25

, but right now we're focusing on Black Lives Matter

13:27

. Two officers were caught pushing 75-year-old

13:29

Martin Gagino to the ground so

13:32

hard he laid bleeding .

13:34

Enough is enough , my justice my

13:36

peace .

13:37

You clearly understood the challenges

13:40

. You had some strategies

13:42

. Was there a particular

13:45

thing you thought ? This is something I

13:47

want to focus on . I know that you did

13:50

highlight the legacy of colonialism

13:52

and slavery . Was that something that

13:55

you really had as a priority , To be

13:57

honest ?

13:57

not at the beginning . This came particularly

14:00

after the murder of George Floyd , who

14:02

were the boys of the families in Europe

14:05

, in the US , canada and

14:07

in the Latin America as well that

14:09

had this police brutality just

14:12

because they were after the sender

14:14

, they were supposed to be suspicious

14:16

of A , b , c or D . And also

14:18

not only the police brutality but also the

14:20

lack of , as I would

14:22

say , empathy of the

14:24

systems the police system , the judiciary

14:27

with the families . The truth never came out

14:29

, etc . And lack of justice . But in

14:31

that discussion , how we deal with this , before

14:34

we said well , but we need to go further

14:36

. We need to analyze why

14:39

is this ? What are the effects

14:41

of the legacy of colonialism

14:43

and slavery also lead to

14:45

the situation of after the sender

14:47

in many places in the world , of

14:50

discrimination , marginalization , etc . Police

14:53

brutality , sometimes even with people

14:55

who were not white . There

14:59

could be Asian in the case of Judge Floyd

15:01

, the other guys who led , one Latino , asian

15:03

, and they didn't do anything . So we decided

15:05

to go backwards because we said we don't deal

15:07

with this issue , we're not going to solve it . Will

15:10

it have results ? Do you think that they

15:12

will take the calls for reparations seriously

15:14

? I don't know Now . The

15:17

UN's human rights chief will be in China

15:19

this week . Michelle Bachelet is the first

15:21

person in the job to visit China in 17

15:23

years .

15:24

Bachelet has come under fire

15:26

from human rights groups and Uighurs

15:28

overseas .

15:30

She's due to go to Xinjiang , the remote

15:32

region where Beijing is accused of systematic

15:34

abuse of China's Uighur Muslim minority

15:36

.

15:37

I'm going to have to ask you about China

15:39

, because this

15:41

was a kind

15:43

of thing , an ongoing part

15:47

of your time as

15:49

human rights commissioner , and

15:51

you did come under a

15:53

lot of pressure and

15:56

quite a lot of criticism . People were

15:58

saying where's the report ? Is

16:01

the human rights office just sitting on it

16:03

and doing nothing ? In the end , this

16:05

report came out very detailed

16:08

, very hard hitting

16:10

. I'm wondering now

16:12

, though , how you coped with

16:14

that pressure If you know you're

16:16

actually working hard and that every time

16:18

you open a newspaper or read an email

16:21

there's some criticism . That can't

16:23

be too easy .

16:24

Well , you know , pressures

16:27

came from everywhere . Every

16:29

time I had an interview with the European Union , the

16:32

question would come and everything went . You'd

16:34

come and said you know so

16:36

, probably because I

16:38

understand what politics is and what geopolitics

16:41

is . I knew they were part

16:43

of the job . I knew this would happen

16:45

anyway , and I used to tell

16:47

them look , if you ask me not to publish this

16:49

, then tomorrow another big country

16:52

will call me , said no , publish this , and then the

16:54

other big country will come . So then the only

16:56

thing I can do is to hold back on Because

16:59

I have to do my job . I have to . If

17:01

I commit to something , I will do it and

17:04

I won't give it to my successor

17:06

the task of doing it

17:08

. I would . It might take me long , because

17:10

I needed to be serious , professional

17:13

, to give the opportunities to everyone

17:15

to give their arguments and their

17:19

experiences , and then we needed to

17:21

make something that we

17:23

feel it is serious . So

17:26

there was lots of pressure , lots of criticism

17:28

, but you know what ? There

17:30

was this saying in the office when everybody , pretty sizes

17:33

are not going back , it's when we want to

17:35

be pretty sizes . You're doing it . I've tried

17:37

to do something wrong , but if everybody thinks

17:39

that , ok , you're trying to do your things . It

17:41

will not be easy , but I think you need to do

17:43

what you need .

17:44

It's interesting that this is something that

17:46

journalists say to themselves as

17:48

well . If both sides of an argument

17:51

are criticising you , you're on

17:53

the right track there . It

17:55

was nice to share some laughter with

17:58

Michelle Bachelet over the challenges

18:00

of the job , but , as she frequently

18:02

said over the course of our interview

18:04

, there's not much to laugh about

18:06

in our world right now . Her

18:09

time in office saw the COVID-19

18:11

pandemic and Russia's

18:13

invasion of Ukraine .

18:15

The airstrikes rolled on hour

18:17

after hour . Palestinian

18:21

armed groups and deterred kept

18:23

up their own barrage of Israel

18:25

Fleeing

18:29

for their lives those living in

18:31

the north of the Gaza Strip heading

18:33

south .

18:33

Now , the renewed conflict in

18:35

the Middle East fills her with concern

18:38

and sadness .

18:39

Well , my heart is broken . My

18:42

heart is broken . First of all , the massacred

18:44

that Hamas did is terrible , but

18:46

, on the other hand , even though

18:48

Israel says that this is a war against Hamas

18:50

and not Palestine , today

18:52

it is listening to 1,017

18:55

children who have died because of the

18:57

bombs . So the problem

18:59

with all wars is , the civilians are the

19:01

ones who died , and I think this is terrible

19:04

because war exists , but

19:06

there are wars that tend to be respected

19:08

. You have people there

19:10

that needs humanitarian

19:13

corridors so they can get food , medicines

19:16

, water , electricity , and

19:19

I feel that

19:21

the international community has

19:24

been slow to respond , slow

19:26

and weak . The response

19:28

has been weak and people

19:30

are suffering and my heart is broken .

19:33

So for my very last question , I

19:35

wanted to know from Michelle Bachelet

19:37

how she views the Universal

19:39

Declaration of Human Rights now . Is

19:42

it in its 75th year

19:44

? Fit for purpose ?

19:46

I mean the Universal Declaration is

19:49

still valid because it

19:51

gives sort of the minimal , if I would say

19:53

, standards how we can live

19:55

together , all the things that we learned after the

19:57

first and second World War . But

20:00

of course , many people feel that

20:02

it's just a document , it doesn't

20:04

make it a reality , neither

20:06

in their own countries . But on the other

20:09

hand , I feel that it's still really

20:11

important . But of course , some

20:13

people , for example , say , oh , there are new issues , we

20:15

need to remake it . But

20:17

they said no , please , this can

20:19

be a $1 box , as it is as

20:21

good in us , we can include it in

20:24

whatever is needed New things

20:26

. For example , people from the LGTBI

20:28

community says we need to be included and , as a look

20:30

, it says all people , all persons

20:32

, all everyone , so everyone with

20:34

every diversity is included there

20:37

. As one African judge

20:39

said in one of the meetings , what

20:41

for me is justice and what is for me justice

20:43

and human rights is that a baby can have

20:46

if it's cold , can be warm , if

20:48

it's hungry , can have food . I mean

20:50

, if you bring it to the real life

20:52

, I think , as Eleanor Roswell

20:55

said , that human rights they had to be

20:57

in the village , in the streets

20:59

, at the school , et cetera . Thank you .

21:00

Human rights in the village , in

21:02

the street , in the schools , everywhere

21:05

. A reminder there from Michelle

21:08

Bachelet that that was Eleanor

21:10

Roosevelt's vision and she was

21:12

the guiding light of the Universal Declaration

21:14

in 1948 . That

21:24

brings us to the end of this edition of Inside

21:26

Geneva . My thanks to Michelle

21:28

Bachelet for her time and her

21:30

wisdom here at Inside

21:32

Geneva . We'd also like to know what you

21:35

think . Does the Universal

21:37

Declaration need changing to

21:39

reflect new awareness of equality

21:42

and identity , or is it

21:44

all a waste of time , since so

21:46

many don't seem to respect its

21:48

values ? Tell us what

21:50

you think by writing to us at

21:52

Inside Geneva , at Swissinfoch

21:54

, or even record

21:57

us an audio message and we can

21:59

try to respond in an upcoming

22:01

episode . In

22:09

the meantime , you can catch up on previous

22:11

editions of Inside Geneva , from

22:14

the situation for women in Afghanistan

22:16

to human rights defenders in

22:18

Russia , to debates about artificial

22:21

intelligence or institutional

22:23

racism in humanitarian agencies

22:26

. You can find us wherever

22:28

you get your podcasts . A

22:33

reminder you've been listening to Inside

22:35

Geneva from Swissinfo , the

22:38

international public media company

22:40

of Switzerland , available in

22:42

many languages as well as English . Check

22:45

out our other content at wwwswissinfoch

22:49

. I'm

22:51

Imogen Folks . Thanks again

22:53

for listening and do join us again

22:55

next time on Inside Geneva .