0:07

This is Inside Geneva . I'm

0:09

your host , imogen Folks , and

0:11

this is a production from SwissInfo

0:13

, the international public media

0:15

company of Switzerland .

0:18

In today's programme , Unroha remains

0:21

the only lifeline

0:23

in a region full

0:25

of despair , a region which

0:28

now deserves that

0:30

we collectively look at promoting

0:33

a proper , genuine piece

0:35

of political solution .

0:37

I think that there have to be alternatives to

0:39

UNRWA and Gaza . Israel will

0:42

not continue working with UNRWA and Gaza

0:44

. We are not .

0:45

A long-running complaint

0:47

is that UNRWA , by

0:49

its very nature and its very mandate

0:52

, keeps the refugee issue alive

0:54

, issues like the right

0:56

of return for Palestinian

0:59

refugees .

1:00

We have more dead children in Gaza

1:03

in these four or five

1:05

months than in all

1:07

other armed conflict combined

1:09

worldwide in the same period

1:11

.

1:18

Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva

1:20

. In today's programme we're going to

1:22

cautiously but objectively take

1:24

a look at a UN agency which

1:26

for years , it seems , was not in

1:29

the news but is now in the eye of

1:31

a political and media storm . That

1:33

agency is UNRWA , long version

1:36

of the United Nations Relief and

1:38

Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees

1:41

. The year was 1948

1:43

. Around 750,000

1:46

Palestinians were expelled from their land

1:48

and the state of Israel came into being

1:51

.

1:52

The conflict died down , but its

1:54

effects remained .

1:55

Material ruins but above all a new

1:57

problem an exodus of almost a million

1:59

Arab refugees .

2:01

UNRWA was founded in 1949

2:03

to support almost a million

2:05

Palestinians who were expelled

2:07

or fled from what is now Israel

2:09

, losing their homes and livelihoods

2:12

in the process . That was

2:14

, yes , 75 years ago . So

2:17

when UNRWA's Commissioner General , Philippe

2:19

Lazarini , came to Geneva , I

2:21

asked him why the organisation

2:23

still existed after all this

2:25

time .

2:26

In reality , it's an organisation

2:29

providing services such

2:31

as education , primary

2:33

health care to one of the most

2:36

destitute communities in the Middle East

2:38

, being the Palestinian refugees

2:40

, and UNRWA has been

2:43

created to be a temporary

2:45

organisation to provide

2:47

these services , to

2:49

provide also some job

2:51

opportunity , to invest , in fact

2:53

, in human development of this community

2:55

until the day there

2:58

is a lasting and fair political solution

3:00

between Israel and Palestine

3:02

. Now , the fact that we still exist

3:04

75 years later is

3:06

nothing else than the expression of

3:09

a collective failure to

3:11

have promoted a lasting and fair

3:13

political solution .

3:15

So ideally , you'd quite like to be out of a

3:17

job , but you can't be because there's no political

3:19

solution .

3:20

Ideally , we should be out of a job

3:23

. And now the question is after

3:25

these seismic changes

3:28

occurring now in the Middle East

3:30

and this unprecedented

3:32

war in Gaza

3:34

an unprecedented massacre

3:37

on October 7 , maybe

3:39

it is time that the international

3:41

community be generally

3:44

invested in promoting such

3:46

a political solution . And

3:48

if we have such a political solution , indeed

3:50

, unrwa would phase out

3:53

because we would hand over all

3:55

our activities to

3:57

a newly set up Palestinian

3:59

state and the administration 75

4:02

years later , as we all know , there

4:04

is no Palestinian state , and

4:07

the chance of one seems further away

4:09

than ever .

4:10

For millions of Palestinians , the primary UN

4:12

agency , UNRWA , is simply a lifeline

4:15

.

4:15

Today , UNRWA supports almost 6

4:17

million Palestinians in

4:19

Jordan , Lebanon , Syria , the West

4:22

Bank and the Gaza Strip

4:24

.

4:24

An astonishing new image that turns

4:27

this decades-old conflict around

4:29

A coordinated and unexpected

4:32

attack , a breach in Israel's

4:34

security and unprecedented attacks

4:36

by Hamas militants .

4:39

It represents the biggest loss

4:41

of life in a single day in

4:43

Israeli history .

4:45

Now , in shocking allegations , Israel

4:48

claims some UNRWA staff

4:50

were involved in the October 7

4:52

attack by Hamas , in which almost

4:54

1200 Israelis were killed

4:57

and at least 200 taken

4:59

hostage . Nina Ben-Ami

5:01

is the Israeli diplomat in charge

5:03

of relations with United Nations

5:05

.

5:06

October 7 was a game changer , and

5:08

what happened on that day required

5:11

us in Israel and many

5:13

people in the international community to

5:15

take another look at what was going

5:17

on , because the

5:20

direct involvement of those 13

5:23

UNRWA employees in Israel , the

5:25

October 7th attacks on Israel , changed

5:28

everything .

5:29

So you brought the allegations

5:32

to the United Nations , to UNRWA

5:34

. They fired the people

5:36

. They're now having this official

5:39

investigation plus an overview

5:41

assessment of UNRWA . You

5:44

must be quite pleased with the quick reaction

5:46

.

5:47

I think it's something that has

5:49

to happen , because it's clearly not

5:51

in the interest of the international community

5:53

or of the UN to have taxpayer

5:57

funds from around the world go into

5:59

an organization that is

6:01

co-opted by being

6:03

so involved in

6:05

terror . And I want to just open up a little bit

6:07

more , because some of the claims are that , oh

6:09

, it was only these 13 people , what

6:11

about the rest of the organization ? But

6:14

as we've continued our operations

6:16

in Gaza , the information has continued

6:19

to come out and the numbers are

6:21

much wider . We

6:23

know about 1,500 people that

6:26

are UNRWA employees , that are Hamas

6:28

operatives , and about

6:31

50% of the people

6:33

who work for UNRWA have a first degree

6:35

relative who is a Hamas

6:37

operative .

6:39

In war torn Gaza . Unrwa , the UN's

6:42

Relief and Works Agency , is one of the

6:44

largest providers of lifesaving aid

6:46

to Palestinians , but now shocking

6:48

revelations from the agency itself

6:51

.

6:51

Now , to be fair , what we know

6:53

so far is that Israel claimed

6:56

to the UN that 12 or

6:58

possibly 13 UNRWA

7:00

staff were in some way or other

7:02

involved in the October 7th

7:04

attack . Unrwa immediately

7:06

fired those staff members and

7:09

now the UN has launched an investigation

7:11

. The organization has 13,000

7:14

staff in Gaza . It runs schools

7:17

and clinics . Jan Egland

7:19

, former UN humanitarian coordinator

7:22

and now head of the Norwegian

7:24

Refugee Council , told me

7:26

his reaction when he heard the news

7:28

.

7:29

Very serious allegations and

7:32

I felt really when I heard of it that

7:36

potentially 12

7:38

colleagues in UNRWA have

7:41

betrayed every fundamental

7:44

humanitarian ideal . We're supposed

7:46

to be humanitarians by

7:49

being neutral , independent

7:52

, impartial . If

7:55

we start to fight in a conflict , I

7:57

mean we undermine those

8:00

sacred humanitarian values for

8:02

all .

8:03

You have said and in fact the

8:05

humanitarian community is pretty much speaking

8:07

with one voice here that UNRWA

8:10

is crucial in

8:12

Gaza and cannot be

8:14

replaced . Why

8:17

not ? There are other aid agencies

8:19

there . Your own is among them .

8:20

Well , we , the other organizations

8:23

, including the Norwegian Refugee Council

8:25

we have 60 colleagues

8:28

inside Gaza at the moment

8:30

they were one of the larger non-governmental

8:33

organizations , but I would

8:35

admit that all

8:38

of us combined , all of the non-governmental

8:40

organizations , all of the Red

8:42

Cross , red Crescent organizations

8:44

, all of the UN agencies combined

8:47

, were not even half of

8:50

what UNRWA is for

8:52

Gaza society . And

8:54

the reason for that is the

8:57

whole premise that

8:59

Gaza , the West Bank

9:01

, the Palestinians have

9:03

been a population under occupation

9:06

, under siege . They haven't had

9:08

a state since 1948

9:11

. The whole purpose of

9:13

UNRWA is to provide social

9:15

services , education , health

9:17

care and hopefully more

9:19

and more works so

9:22

that one day they

9:24

can stand on their own feet within

9:26

the nation state . But until

9:28

then , its UNRWA is the

9:30

social services , if you like , for

9:33

the Palestinians .

9:34

The Israeli Prime Minister , benjamin Netanyahu

9:36

, says he has told the United States he

9:38

opposes the establishment of a Palestinian

9:41

state .

9:42

England is making the point that Philippe

9:44

Lazzarini also made . Unrwa's

9:46

mandate is different from that of the

9:48

classic aid agency . It

9:51

was supposed to be temporary , but

9:53

because there has been no political solution

9:55

, it's still there . The current

9:57

Israeli government seems to have ruled

10:00

out any chance of a two-state solution

10:02

, and Louis Charbonneau , the

10:04

UN director at Human Rights Watch

10:07

, told me the fact that the

10:09

UN agency supporting Palestinians

10:11

still holds out the hope

10:13

of statehood has been a source

10:16

of irritation in some Israeli political

10:18

circles for years .

10:20

Israel has long accused UNRWA of

10:22

being biased . They've

10:25

criticized their approach

10:27

to education , because UNRWA

10:29

is the main organizer

10:31

of schools and education in

10:34

Palestinian areas . And then

10:36

a long-running complaint

10:38

is that UNRWA , by

10:41

its very nature and its very mandate , keeps

10:43

the refugee issue alive , issues

10:46

like the right of return

10:48

for Palestinian

10:50

refugees who left

10:52

after 1948

10:55

and the founding of

10:57

the state of Israel . So

11:00

the complaints against UNRWA

11:02

have been around for a long time . They

11:04

run deep and this

11:06

is the latest series of allegations

11:09

. But again , they're serious allegations

11:11

and Israel says that they have

11:13

evidence to prove them . We

11:15

still don't know what the full extent of

11:17

that evidence is , but even

11:20

if it's true , we still need UNRWA

11:22

to be funded , because

11:24

they need to function . They're saving lives

11:27

and without them , many people

11:29

women , children , civilians

11:31

will likely die

11:34

, starve to death . We have accused

11:36

Israel of using starvation

11:38

as a weapon of war , which is a war

11:40

crime in the Gaza

11:42

Strip . So we need UNRWA

11:45

on its feet .

11:46

Gaza is hungry . This

11:49

was the view from a UN convoy as

11:51

it tried to deliver food into war-torn

11:53

northern Gaza this month . Human

11:55

rights watch is critical of the way Israel

11:58

is conducting its war on Hamas

12:00

and the effect on Gaza's

12:02

civilians . Sharbonne , too

12:04

, sees the allegations against UNRWA

12:06

as very serious , but he would

12:08

like to see the evidence . Some

12:11

in Israel have suggested the information

12:13

is too sensitive and can't

12:15

be shared , but Nina Ben-Ami

12:17

says the evidence will be given to

12:20

the two investigative teams the UN

12:22

has set up .

12:23

We will be sharing that evidence with both

12:25

investigative bodies . They are planning to

12:27

come to Israel in

12:29

the next week or so and

12:32

we will be sharing this information absolutely

12:34

because we call on

12:37

a serious investigation , an in-depth investigation

12:39

on what's happening with UNR for

12:41

you to be able to be resolved

12:44

. We cannot continue with the current situation

12:46

where UNR is part of the problem and not part of the solution

12:48

.

12:48

So the statements made from other

12:51

members of the Israeli government that Israel

12:53

will not share this information because

12:55

it doesn't trust the United Nations ? That's not

12:57

true . Then You're telling me that all of

12:59

it will be shared .

13:01

You will be sharing the information with

13:03

the investigative bodies that

13:05

are coming here for that purpose , absolutely

13:08

, and we've invited them to come and

13:10

we are absolutely going to be cooperating with

13:12

them so they can get to the bottom of this , because

13:14

it is clearly a

13:17

subject which concerns Israel , because

13:19

we are , in the end , the receiving end of the violence

13:21

and the terror that came out from this situation , but

13:24

the UN has some little soul searching

13:26

to do , because I would also posit

13:28

that if this has happened with UNR , it's

13:30

possible that there are similar things happening in other

13:32

UN bodies that are also working in Gaza , but

13:35

let's focus right now on UNR

13:37

and Gaza . And Israel will not

13:39

be able to continue working

13:41

with UNR and Gaza . We are not .

13:44

Never .

13:47

Never is a very long term , but UNR has become

13:49

part of the problem and not part of the solution

13:51

, and so it is really incumbent upon

13:53

the UN to do these investigations and to

13:55

get to the bottom and the source of the

13:57

problem .

13:58

While the investigations are now underway

14:00

and nothing is proven yet , but

14:03

it seems many minds in Israel

14:05

are already made up . Meanwhile

14:07

, unr itself has not yet

14:10

seen the evidence . Philippe Lazerini

14:12

fired his staff on the basis of

14:14

allegations to protect

14:16

, he hoped , the organisation as

14:18

a whole .

14:19

I did not have any concrete evidence

14:22

. These are allegations

14:24

. They're shocking allegations . They're

14:26

related to October

14:28

7 . And basically

14:30

I have taken the decision to not

14:33

only terminate the contract of

14:36

the staff alleged having

14:38

participated to the October

14:40

7 massacre but , at

14:42

the same time , an investigation

14:45

through the Office of Internal

14:47

Oversight Services in

14:49

New York . So basically

14:51

we have a kind of a reverse

14:54

due process . The reason behind

14:56

it was because of the

14:58

huge reputational risk for

15:00

the agency , but also because of the risk

15:03

to compromise the ability

15:05

of the agency to provide services to

15:07

a million of Palestinian refugees .

15:09

Let's go to the immediate concern , which

15:11

is massive humanitarian

15:14

needs in Gaza . Now

15:16

Israel has said

15:18

it really doesn't want to work

15:20

with UNR . Wouldn't it be sensible

15:23

, in terms of getting a

15:25

more efficient humanitarian operation , for

15:27

UNR to step back and

15:29

have WFP

15:32

, world Health Organisation and

15:34

so on , step in ?

15:35

To start with , if Israel

15:37

does not want to work with UNR

15:39

, it's because Israel wants

15:42

to dismantle this organization

15:44

and it is not due to the allegation

15:46

of the 12 staff . It's more

15:48

of an overarching political

15:51

aim to get rid

15:53

of this organization . We

15:56

heard many times during this war

15:58

a number of Israeli

16:00

politicians saying that one

16:02

aim of this war is not only to get rid

16:04

of Hamas . We have to get rid of UNR

16:07

as an agency . Now

16:10

, today , the needs are

16:12

absolutely staggering in

16:14

the Gaza Strip , Five percent

16:17

of the population within four months has

16:19

been either killed , injured or is

16:21

a missing . We are talking about

16:23

starvation and possibly famine

16:25

. The level of destruction is absolutely

16:28

unbelievable . Now we are talking

16:30

about a possible looming military

16:33

offensive in Gaza . Unr

16:35

is the agency which has

16:37

an extraordinary footprint

16:39

in the Gaza Strip With 13,000

16:42

employees . All the other

16:45

agencies have a

16:47

very modest footprint

16:49

for the time being in the Gaza Strip . It

16:52

does not make sense , at

16:54

the peak of a new return response

16:56

all , of suddenly dismantling

16:59

the platform which allows

17:01

all the other agencies to

17:04

operate in the Gaza Strip .

17:06

She said that there is a long history

17:08

of tensions between UNR and

17:10

Israel . I

17:12

mean , hand on heart have there been faults

17:15

on both sides ? If

17:17

you look back at Unruh's history , have

17:19

mistakes been made ?

17:21

There have always been mistakes been made , and

17:23

whenever a mistake is

17:25

identified , it is corrected

17:28

, and this is also the reason why today

17:30

we have commissioned a

17:33

group of independent institutes

17:35

from Denmark , sweden and Oslo

17:38

to look at all

17:40

these internal mechanisms

17:42

, to look at how the agency

17:45

, in the past and today

17:47

, is dealing with

17:49

any breaches of

17:51

neutrality . It's an extraordinary

17:54

polarised environment , a

17:56

very emotional environment . It's

17:58

a divided environment

18:00

. Everything seems to be

18:02

black or white and

18:05

obviously reality is

18:07

far more complex than looking

18:10

through the lens of the black and

18:12

white .

18:12

Children in Gaza are hungry . Donor

18:17

to Unruh . The main UN agency

18:19

that supports Palestinians , withdrew

18:21

their funding 10 days ago . But

18:23

in reaction to the allegations against Unruh

18:25

, some donor governments have chosen

18:28

what Lazarini might call a simple

18:30

black and white response by

18:32

suspending their funding before

18:35

the investigations had even started

18:37

, let alone been completed . Jan

18:40

Eglund says that's the wrong choice

18:42

.

18:42

Unruh has done everything right

18:44

since this crisis started . Number

18:47

one they fired

18:49

. They didn't suspend , which would

18:51

be the normal thing . They

18:53

fired the 12 staff that

18:56

might have done what

18:58

Israel , the party to the conflict , ledgers . Secondly

19:01

, they've asked for an international

19:03

investigation in all

19:05

sites of what happened , which

19:07

is ongoing , and then , on top

19:09

of that , they've also asked three Scandinavian

19:12

research institutes to look at how

19:15

we operate . Could there be something

19:17

with our education systems or whatever

19:19

that we need to reform ? It's

19:21

an open invitation for a very

19:24

fine organisation to potentially

19:26

reform and improve further .

19:28

I see you are I mean

19:30

you have been , from the moment this started really

19:33

indignant , angry at

19:35

the fact that the big donors the

19:38

United States , united Kingdom

19:40

, germany were so quick to suspend

19:42

aid . You said they're doing everything

19:45

wrong .

19:45

They are . They are Number

19:48

one . How come it took a

19:50

few minutes for them to spend all

19:52

funding after they had gotten

19:56

these allegations ? I mean , there seems to be

19:58

some kind of orchestration here . And

20:01

finally , a very important point of

20:03

principle here how come these

20:05

countries are still selling

20:07

and providing arms

20:09

to Israel after

20:11

a million evidence

20:14

of Israeli soldiers

20:16

, civilians , politicians

20:19

and others committing grave violations

20:21

of humanitarian law ? I mean

20:24

, israel has killed more

20:26

than 10,000 children , they've

20:28

destroyed 360,000

20:31

civilian housing

20:33

units and they

20:35

have had no suspension

20:37

of either aid nor

20:40

arms . By

20:42

that logic , the one party

20:45

that could receive nothing from

20:48

the United States would be Israel .

20:49

Palestinians in Gaza are facing the immediate

20:52

possibility of starvation the

20:54

UN said today Well , as we have

20:56

said , this is a polarized

20:58

, often emotional debate . But

21:01

one thing the UN aid agencies here

21:03

in Geneva are united on there

21:05

is no replacement for UNRWA , particularly

21:08

not now , in the middle of a major

21:11

humanitarian crisis . Israel's

21:14

Nina Ben-Ami disagrees . She

21:16

says other agencies should step

21:18

up .

21:19

I think that there have to be alternatives to

21:21

UNRWA in Gaza . There are

21:23

plenty of organizations and

21:25

humanitarian bodies that do excellent work

21:28

for the UN all

21:30

over the world and there is no

21:32

reason why they shouldn't be able to step

21:34

in and fill

21:36

some of the needs that UNRWA is doing

21:39

in Gaza . Israel has

21:41

no limits on what humanitarian aid we

21:43

can put into Gaza . The

21:45

limits are right now inside

21:47

the Gaza Strip , with

21:49

a big part of

21:51

the bulk of the problem being UNRWA

21:54

and their logistical capabilities

21:56

and their links with

21:58

terror .

21:59

Just let me stop you there , because I

22:01

listen to the humanitarian agencies every

22:04

week , and it's not just

22:06

one of them , it's all of them who say that

22:09

the difficulties with aid getting

22:11

in , if we really want to go in that direction

22:13

, are primarily the

22:15

very limited crossing points , the endless

22:18

checks , the repeated

22:21

denials . So I

22:23

don't think that it would be fair

22:25

for me not to question you when you say

22:27

that it's nothing to do with

22:29

the body which controls

22:32

the aid going in and out , which is Israel

22:34

.

22:34

And we're working together to try and find solutions

22:37

and ways to get the aid and

22:40

humanitarian assistance into Gaza . So

22:42

all of those agencies that you mentioned

22:44

we're aware of , we work with them and

22:46

it is a big challenge

22:48

, but one which will not be solved by

22:51

UNRWA , which is helping

22:53

to do terror attacks on Israel . That

22:56

will not stand . There's something wrong .

22:58

Can I just ask you if you want to

23:00

stand by the statement

23:03

that UNRWA as an

23:05

institution is doing that ? It's

23:08

30,000 people , just to

23:10

remind you . Well , I'm talking about UNRWA

23:12

in .

23:13

Gaza .

23:13

UNRWA in Gaza is not . That's 13,000

23:16

. That's 13,000 .

23:17

And the numbers that I've said , I stand by

23:19

them , of the 1,400

23:22

that are militants in Hamas

23:24

, which is 10% of

23:26

the 13,000 , and 50%

23:28

that have first-degree relatives . But

23:31

I always say , don't be surprised that

23:33

they're so deeply embedded . And

23:35

the involvement of those 13

23:38

people out in the October 7th events was just

23:40

, I would say , an indication

23:43

of what else is going on .

23:44

Okay . So for balance , I feel I need

23:46

to say Israel's claims that

23:48

10% of UNRWA staff

23:50

are involved with Hamas , or

23:52

that half have family members who

23:55

are connected to Hamas , are , for now

23:57

, just that claims , not

23:59

proven facts . And lawyers

24:02

will point out that having a relative

24:04

who is a bad person is not

24:07

a reason to convict .

24:08

I have condemned unequivocally the

24:11

orifying and unprecedented 7

24:13

October acts of terror by Hamas

24:15

in Israel . All hostages

24:17

must be treated humanely and released

24:19

immediately and without conditions . It

24:22

is important to also recognize

24:24

the attacks by Hamas did not happen in

24:26

a vacuum . The Palestinian

24:28

people have been subjected to 56

24:31

years of suffocating occupation

24:33

.

24:33

But on October 7th Israel

24:35

suffered appalling violence . So

24:38

when the United Nations tries to

24:40

point out that the tensions in

24:42

the Middle East are longstanding , the

24:44

feelings of hurt and anger

24:46

are understandable . Louis

24:48

Charbonneau again .

24:49

There's no question that Israel has

24:51

been extremely critical of the

24:53

United Nations . They have repeatedly

24:56

called for the UN Secretary General

24:58

, antonio Bruteres , to resign

25:01

. When the Secretary

25:03

General in the Security Council

25:06

strongly condemned what

25:09

Hamas and other Palestinian armed

25:11

groups did on October

25:13

7th , the atrocities that they

25:15

committed , he also said that these

25:17

atrocities didn't take place

25:19

in a vacuum and that caused

25:22

outrage on the part of the Israeli

25:25

government . So the criticism

25:27

against the UN has been very

25:29

strong and , yes , the Israeli government seems

25:31

to want the UN to

25:33

take sides , and

25:35

this is not something that

25:37

humanitarians can

25:40

do . They have to function as neutral

25:42

parties whose job it is

25:44

to provide life-saving

25:48

humanitarian assistance . That's

25:50

what they're there for , and whether

25:52

it's UN humanitarian

25:54

organizations or the International

25:57

Committee of the Red Cross , they should

25:59

not be forced to take a side

26:02

. We are now in the area of

26:04

the basement of the hospital .

26:06

In this video released by Israel's military

26:09

, it says Hamas used the Al-Rentisi

26:11

Hospital as a command center and

26:14

to hold hostages . But

26:16

in Israel , Nina Ben-Ami is not

26:18

convinced . Aid agencies are impartial

26:20

and neutral . Israel has repeatedly

26:23

claimed that in densely populated

26:25

Gaza , Hamas is operating

26:28

in or near hospitals . Ben-ami

26:31

claims aid agencies working in

26:33

hospitals in Gaza must

26:35

have seen things and she wants

26:37

them to condemn .

26:38

I would say that independent

26:41

and neutral requires

26:43

very careful standards

26:46

and I almost have

26:48

sort of pity on them . If they're inside Gaza

26:50

and they're working and the de facto government

26:53

is run by Hamas , then it may be

26:55

very difficult for them to speak out about things

26:57

that they see are a problem and may

26:59

be difficult for them to say there's

27:01

something going on in the basement here that we

27:03

need to look at . But at

27:06

the end of the day , if they're not

27:08

being fair and if they're not

27:10

able to call out and criticize

27:12

the misuse of a humanitarian

27:15

infrastructure by a

27:17

terrorist body , then they're

27:19

in a situation of some kind of

27:21

complicity and I

27:23

cannot just let it stand and

27:25

have them get away with it , because

27:28

it's untenable . We

27:31

are seeing over the last few months there

27:33

is a sense that somehow , when it comes to Israel

27:35

, that they're not doing the

27:38

efforts that we would like to see

27:40

them do . There's a great deal of public anger

27:43

and feeling of abandonment

27:45

that the UN is doing so

27:47

much for so many others , but when Israel

27:49

is now in a time of crisis , when our

27:51

hostages are being held , that anyone's seeing

27:53

them having a sign of life .

27:55

We're getting medicine to them that we are

27:57

left out .

27:59

So yes for Geneva , I would say voice

28:02

from Jerusalem . There's this definite feeling

28:04

of anger and of abandonment by

28:06

the international humanitarian

28:08

community .

28:09

over there , Aid agencies will tell you that the

28:11

only side there on is the side

28:13

of innocent civilians caught up

28:15

in conflict that they haven't

28:17

managed to convince . Israel and

28:20

its vocal lack of trust could

28:22

be very damaging for the UN's

28:24

humanitarian work in all sorts

28:26

of places . Jan Egland

28:29

fears how this conflict , already

28:31

so terrible , may develop .

28:34

This will end very

28:36

, very , very badly . It

28:38

can end even worse

28:40

than now , even

28:42

though we are at the point

28:44

where we have more dead children in

28:46

Gaza in these four

28:49

or five months than in

28:51

all other armed conflict

28:53

combined worldwide in

28:55

the same period . Three times more

28:57

children died in

29:00

three months in the

29:02

Gaza war than in two years

29:04

of the Ukraine war . But

29:07

Ra'fa is filled

29:10

to the brim by vulnerable

29:12

civilians , women and children mostly

29:15

, and now Israel is thinking

29:17

of going in with a bloody

29:19

ground offensive

29:21

. You can't have a war in a refugee

29:24

camp , and Ra'fa is today

29:26

the world's largest

29:28

refugee camp . There is no other way to

29:30

put it . We would hold United

29:33

States , united Kingdom , germany

29:36

and all of these other countries providing

29:38

the arms to this . We would hold

29:40

them accountable for what is going

29:42

to happen in Ra'fa . There are countless

29:45

warnings of how bad it would be

29:47

.

29:48

More than 100 people are reported to have

29:50

been killed in Gaza as they tried

29:52

to reach a convoy carrying food

29:54

aid . The

29:56

hunger created by war made

29:58

this tragedy . That

30:03

is a fundamental fact of what happened today

30:05

and UNRWA itself

30:07

. The investigations into Israel's

30:09

allegations are underway and

30:12

, as we said , the staff under suspicion

30:14

12 out of 13,000

30:17

have been fired . But UNRWA's

30:20

biggest donors , the US , the UK

30:22

and Germany , have suspended

30:24

their funding and Philippe Lazerini

30:27

warns the agency may not

30:29

be able to continue .

30:30

A lot is at stake if

30:33

the agency would fall . Not

30:35

only our collective ability to respond

30:37

to the acute humanitarian needs would

30:39

decrease . At the time , the International

30:42

Court of Justice is asking all

30:44

of us to increase the humanitarian

30:47

response , but beyond that , there

30:49

is also a risk for the transition

30:52

period , a period which will be

30:54

very painful and miserable

30:56

for the people in Gaza and for which

30:59

all the capacity to provide

31:01

critical services , such as

31:03

education , to half a million guns

31:06

and bullets deeply traumatized

31:08

. That we urgently need to bring

31:10

back into an education system

31:12

, because if we don't do this , we

31:14

are sowing the seeds of future

31:16

hate and resentment

31:19

. But beyond that , there

31:21

is also the political aspect , where

31:24

Palestinian will feel that

31:26

, with the fall of UNRWA , this

31:28

is a betrayal of

31:30

the international community , an international

31:32

community turning its back , weakening

31:35

the right of return

31:37

and basically weakening

31:40

or killing the aspiration

31:43

of Palestinian for future self-determination

31:46

. So all this would

31:48

also be seen as an

31:50

international community not generally

31:53

committed to promote

31:55

a proper political solution .

31:58

It is a very difficult time on multiple

32:01

levels . Where

32:03

do you go now ? How do you motivate

32:05

yourself to keep on ?

32:07

Listen . What motivates myself

32:10

is that I

32:12

do believe that this

32:14

agency remains

32:17

critical , even

32:19

if sometimes it looks like

32:21

obsolete . After 75

32:24

years , it's almost an anachronism

32:27

that an agency be requested

32:29

to provide public-like

32:31

services to such

32:33

a large group , but

32:35

in the other hand , the UNRWA

32:38

remains the only

32:40

lifeline in a region

32:42

full of despair , a

32:45

region which now deserves

32:47

that we collectively look

32:49

at promoting a

32:51

proper , genuine piece for

32:53

a political solution , and

32:56

my motivation today is to try

32:59

to keep afloat this

33:02

expectation of a better

33:04

future for a

33:07

population which I

33:09

have been in contact in and out

33:11

for the last 33

33:14

years .

33:21

And that brings us to the end of this edition of Inside

33:23

Geneva . We know this is

33:25

a controversial topic for many

33:27

, but we hope we've managed to

33:29

bring some clarity to a very

33:32

complex issue . My thanks

33:34

to Philippe Nazarini , Nina Benami

33:37

, Jan Egland and Louis Charbonneau

33:39

for their time and their perspectives

33:42

. If

33:46

you have comments on Inside Geneva

33:48

, don't hesitate to contact

33:50

us at insidejeneva

33:52

, at Swissinfoch . In

33:55

our next episode we'll be looking at

33:57

artificial intelligence . Is

34:00

it a threat to democracy in this big

34:02

election year , and can the

34:04

UN or human rights groups provide

34:06

any guidance to voters ? You

34:11

can find us , subscribe to us and

34:14

review us wherever you get your podcasts

34:16

. A reminder you've been listening

34:19

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34:21

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34:23

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34:28

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34:33

. I'm

34:35

Imogen Folks . Thanks again

34:37

for listening and do join us next time

34:40

on Inside Geneva .