0:01

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode

0:03

of Inside the Studio on iHeart Radio.

0:06

My name is Jordan runt Dog, but enough about

0:08

me. My guests today are among

0:10

the greatest songwriters and producers of

0:12

all time. It's not negotiable. Just

0:14

look at the stats. Together, they've written

0:17

thirty one top ten hits, including

0:19

sixteen number one, and these

0:22

are songs that have become part of popular culture.

0:24

Tracks with Janet Jackson like Control

0:27

Nasty, What Have You Done for Me Lately? Together

0:29

Again and All for You. Then there's

0:32

Boys Two Men's Four Seasons of Loneliness

0:34

and on Bended Knee, Human by

0:36

Human League. They've worked with everyone from

0:38

Michael Jackson and Gwen Stefani

0:40

to New Edition and Shaka Khan, but

0:43

now they're stepping out in front for the first

0:45

time. On July nine, they released

0:47

Jam and Lewis Volume One, their

0:49

debut album under their own name. It

0:52

features help from up and comers like Oh

0:54

Mariah carry Usher, Baby

0:56

Face, Tony Braxton, Mary j.

0:58

Blige. Maybe heard of them. Like

1:01

their home state of Minnesota. They are cooler

1:03

than cool. I am so happy to welcome to

1:05

music legends Jimmy Jam and Terry

1:07

Lewis Jimmy Terry, thank you so

1:10

much for taking the time today. This is such an

1:12

honor. I owe you every every high

1:14

school dance I've ever had thanks

1:16

to you. I should say, it's such an

1:19

honor to be speaking to you. Thank You've given me

1:21

so much joy over the years. Oh, thank you. Well,

1:23

we'll try to do nothing to ruin that. Nothing. I

1:27

don't worry. My hopes are very high. You. You have your

1:29

debut solo album due out, Jam and Lewis

1:31

Volume one. In some ways, it's been in

1:33

the works for thirty five years now. Can you tell

1:35

me a little bit about the genesis of the album.

1:38

The origin of the Jam and Lewis album actually

1:40

started, Yeah, thirty five years ago, the

1:42

same year that we were working on an album

1:44

that ended up becoming Control for Jam

1:47

and Uh. Really we had started,

1:49

you know, working on tracks for our album,

1:51

and then we got the call from a John McClean at

1:53

and M Records who was a and our person, and he

1:56

said, hey, who do you want to work with on our roster? And

1:58

we looked at the roster and we said, oh, jam it.

2:00

We want to do Janet And he said, you want to do a couple of songs.

2:02

We said, no, we want to do the whole album, and he said, oh,

2:04

okay, cool. So anyway, Janet

2:06

came to Minneapolis. We started working. When

2:09

we were done, at least what we thought.

2:11

When we were done with the album, we had

2:13

John come up and we played him control

2:15

and Nasty and when I Think of You and Pleasure

2:18

Principle and Funny out time Wise

2:20

and let's wait a while. And we're thinking we're

2:22

done, we're good, and like all a and our people,

2:24

he goes, I just need one more,

2:28

just need one more, always one more, right, and we're

2:30

like, now forget you. So anyway, we hop in the car and we're

2:32

gonna go grab a bite to eat. Terry puts in

2:34

a cassette. So now this dates us thirty

2:36

five years ago. He puts in a cassette of tracks

2:38

we were working on for the Jam and Lewis album,

2:40

and about the third track in John McClain goes,

2:43

wait, that's the one I need for Janet.

2:46

He said, what are you talking about? He said, not need that track for

2:48

Janet, play it for and if she likes to give

2:50

it to her. And we're like, oh, you're just giving our songs

2:52

away now okay, fine, So the

2:54

next day we go to the studio. We just turned

2:56

a song on. We didn't say we were gonna play anything.

2:58

We put the song on. We why Janet, and Jane's

3:01

kind of looking at the TV and then she

3:03

kind of puts her head down and she starts bopping

3:05

a little bit. She walks to the door. She pointed

3:07

me and Terry. When the song goes off,

3:09

she goes, who's that for? And

3:11

we said, well, you if you want it, and

3:14

she said, oh I wanted that song became

3:16

what have you done for me lately? So

3:18

it ended up being the single that launched her

3:20

career and basically ended hours

3:23

at least as artists and got us into

3:25

writing and production. So that's why

3:27

it's been a thirty five year journey. And over

3:29

the years going forward, we would

3:31

do songs with artists and we'd say, hey, we want to do something

3:33

for our Jane and Lewis album and they go, you had great,

3:35

great, And then when the song would be done, they'd go, oh,

3:38

no, I gotta keep this for myself. So

3:41

about four years ago we finally got

3:43

selfish. We were going in the Songwriters

3:46

Hall of Fame and we were on the red carpet,

3:48

and a couple of reporters said, what is it

3:50

that you guys haven't done that you guys

3:52

still want to do? And we looked around on the red

3:54

carpet, and standing a few feet

3:56

down from us was baby Face. And we looked at baby

3:58

Face and we said, well, we never got a round to finishing

4:01

anything with baby Face, working on someone with baby

4:03

Face. And then we said, and we never

4:05

got around to do in our album. And the third

4:07

thing we said was we never got around to actually

4:09

touring playing our own songs. So

4:11

those were kind of the three things on our checklist that

4:13

we had never gotten around to doing. And

4:15

then through kind of you know, weird circumstances

4:18

and different things, we finally just

4:20

decided, let's be selfish and let's

4:22

just do our record. And so baby Face was

4:24

one of the first people we reached out to we put

4:27

our wish list together, and you

4:29

know, that was kind of the journey

4:31

of the album and why it took so long

4:34

to do. And finally we were just like, we're

4:36

keeping the songs for ourselves. You know, at

4:38

one point in time, I think we were thinking of

4:40

calling the album something like songs we were

4:42

keeping for ourselves or something like that, you

4:45

know, because because really that's what it

4:47

is, That's what these songs are. Are there any songs

4:49

on this new album that date back to I

4:52

don't think there's any that date back that

4:55

not that far, but you know, certainly

4:58

we have like a book titles

5:01

or now iPhone the titles that might

5:03

date back that far that we pull

5:05

ideas from in terms of just concepts

5:08

to write them. So the base of

5:10

those things could possibly be. And

5:13

certainly a lot of inspirations

5:15

probably date back that part you met your baby

5:17

Face. I love the track that he did with him. He

5:19

don't know nothing about it. Tell me about

5:21

the background behind that song. It's such

5:24

a great track. Well, really, the concept with really

5:26

all the artists on the album is really to

5:28

make if you said the artist's name, what

5:30

should that song sound like? And I remember

5:33

with baby Face, it was interesting because we

5:35

just wanted to make the most baby Face sounding

5:38

record we could possibly do. And the

5:40

feeling we wanted to try to give people was

5:42

we call it nostalgia. It's

5:44

that idea of hearing something new

5:47

which is exciting, but it's familiar.

5:50

It makes you feel good and comfortable, right,

5:52

It's like it's almost like something you you're hearing something

5:55

new for the first time, but it feels like

5:57

something you've heard before, or

5:59

like meeting an old friend for the first time or something.

6:01

I don't know the different ways to kind of analogize it,

6:03

but that's kind of the the idea of it. So

6:05

when you hear the baby Face record, to us,

6:07

it sounds like a baby you know, it sounds like a baby

6:10

Face record. And I remember somebody when we

6:12

when they first heard it, said you know, wow,

6:15

it doesn't sound like a Jam and Lewis record. And

6:17

we said, well, what does it sound like and they said, it sounds like a

6:19

baby Face record and we said, exactly, so

6:22

it's not you know, I think they took it as

6:24

like a like it wasn't a compliment. We took it as

6:26

a total compliment because as writers and producers,

6:28

that's what we've always tried to do, is make the

6:30

artists sound like the best their best self. And

6:33

with baby Face, it was really cool because when we

6:35

first of all, we got a chance to do to start

6:38

working on it pre COVID, so we actually

6:40

got to sit in the studio together and actually

6:43

right and and record and do all

6:45

that kind of in person, which was which

6:47

was great. But then you know, baby Face

6:49

allowed us to produce the song rather

6:51

than him producing it, so it made

6:54

for an interesting thing. When he finally

6:56

heard the finished version of the song, he

6:58

just said, man, that sounds really good.

7:00

And we said, oh, thanks, and he said, no, that

7:03

sounds really good and we

7:05

said, your baby face, what do you think it's gonna

7:07

sound like. But sometimes the artists

7:09

forget, they kind of forget who they

7:12

are, like why they're so great. But

7:14

with him, I we also realized that because

7:16

he's so meticulous about doing everything himself,

7:19

he never gets to hear himself in a

7:21

fresh new way. So the

7:23

fact that he just handed the song off to us and

7:25

said go ahead and finish it, he didn't know the choices

7:27

we were going to make a which vocal to use, which guitar

7:30

part to use, which he didn't know. But

7:32

when he heard it he was pleasantly surprised. So I got

7:34

I think he got a chance to hear himself and in

7:36

a way fall back in love with himself again,

7:38

which was very important for us really with all the artists,

7:41

but particularly with baby Face. But

7:43

you mentioned saying you know you you want a

7:45

song to sound like the best version

7:47

of that artist? How do you do

7:49

that? You put yourself is you sort of put your fan

7:52

hat on and think, Okay, I'm really a fan of

7:54

this artist. What would I want is that? How

7:56

do you approach that? That's exactly how

7:58

we approach it. We are fans, you know,

8:00

friends and fans of these artists first, and

8:02

then you know, you just imagine,

8:04

like what would I want to hear this particular

8:07

artist sound like what song would I

8:09

want to hear? And then we try to go for that concept

8:12

and then from there, you

8:14

know, just hearkening back to like a

8:16

history of it, You've heard great performances

8:19

from all of these artists. So we just try to

8:21

make sure that we are in the ballpark's

8:23

get great performances so that it takes

8:25

you to the place that you feel like you're

8:27

where you were, but you're in a whole new

8:29

space because, like jam said, the new stagia

8:32

of it. It's comfortable but new.

8:34

And so I think everybody get that that smile

8:36

that you just had, just like that,

8:39

we try to go for that that makes you just

8:41

feel good. It's it's that that

8:43

warm feeling that the woman fuzzy

8:47

that that is absolutely right.

8:49

We basically this is a very selfish

8:51

record. This is a record we made for ourselves,

8:54

and we just hope everybody agrees. You know,

8:56

we made it for ourselves. We made the records we

8:58

wanted to hear these artists do, simple

9:01

as that, and and hopefully people

9:03

just agree with that and go, oh, yeah, that's I agree,

9:05

that's what I want to hear, you know. So we're very

9:07

selfish of us. There's a great story

9:09

you've told about working with with Janet

9:12

Jackson on I think it was control where

9:14

for the first five days you were just talking

9:16

and she said, well, when are we gonna get started? And you said,

9:18

well we did, and you showed her the lyrics

9:21

too. I think it was control saying based on

9:23

what you've been talking about and how

9:25

you kind of sort of got into her mind

9:27

in a lot of ways, what is that preprocess like

9:30

that that period for Janet for example, when you're

9:32

sort of getting inside an artist, how do you know how

9:34

do you cast a song? I guess is the question

9:37

very interesting? To put it that way, I mean,

9:39

it's interesting process. It's

9:41

the kind of the psychology, psychiatry

9:43

of human of

9:46

humanities, like to understand

9:49

or at least listen to what a person

9:51

is feeling in their deepest feelings

9:53

and then convert that into song. We always

9:55

say what comes from the heart reaches the heart. So

9:58

if it comes from their deepest

10:00

places in their mind and their

10:02

soul, when they deliver it is certainly

10:04

going to touch anyone that comes into

10:06

contact with it. So we just like to

10:09

just be in their weaving I guess

10:11

tailoring. I guess we call it with song

10:13

smith smith ing and just the personalities

10:16

of people. We just like to play with that because

10:19

it just it's just an interesting place

10:21

to be and as opposed

10:23

to writing a song that comes out like

10:26

certainly I can write a concept that comes out of my

10:28

mind, but it comes out a lot better

10:30

when I integrate that artists feelings

10:33

about that concept, and so we always

10:35

try to include those things. We're always aware also

10:37

that the artist has to you know, they have to perform

10:40

these songs for the rest of their life. If

10:42

they hit you no big, you know, at

10:44

that point in time obviously, as right as in producers,

10:46

when the song leaves the studio, it's done and we

10:48

move on to the next thing. For them, it's just the

10:50

beginning of the journey. They have to talk about it,

10:52

they have to learn it, rehearse it, make videos

10:55

for it. I want to make sure that that song really

10:57

means something to the artist that it did, it really

11:00

resonates with them. And with Janet it was

11:02

cool because when she her eyes just lit

11:04

up when she saw kind of the lyrics to control.

11:07

She just said, well, wait, this is exactly what we've been

11:09

talking about. And we said yeah, and she says, whatever we talk about,

11:11

that's what we're gonna write about. And it's like yeah, and she was

11:13

I want I want to write about this. I want to write about this.

11:15

And it got her excited about becoming a

11:17

songwriter because we included her in the process

11:20

of actually creating the songs. And but that

11:22

was always our philosophy, like like Terry

11:24

said, tailoring almost like tailoring a suit. You

11:26

get what people like, the color, the lapel,

11:29

they like that, you know, and all that, and now they

11:31

have something that they can wear. It only fits

11:33

them. It's custom made for them and not everybody

11:35

can wear it. But I think that's kind of the philosophy

11:38

production one give us a question, and I guess there's

11:40

no easy answer. What is it about music

11:42

that makes it's that's an effective conduit

11:45

for emotion. Just reach it straight into your soul.

11:47

It's the universal language. It's we we

11:49

call it the divine art. It's the divine

11:52

art. And if you think about it, a

11:54

couple of things come to mind. One is

11:57

it's time to travel. So if I

11:59

said to you, uh, you

12:01

know, Jordan, in nineteen eighty

12:03

five, on this

12:05

day, what were you doing or whatever? You know, just

12:08

pick a year and you could probably kind

12:10

of piece it together in your mind. You know, well,

12:12

I might have been going to this school, or I might have been you

12:14

know, whatever it was that was happening in

12:17

your life. If I play a song

12:19

from five or a day

12:21

in nineteen eighty five, you remember everything

12:23

about it. Remember you know,

12:26

you might might be the girl you're dating. It might

12:28

be whether it's a prom, whether

12:30

it's you know, oh, I'm in my car driving with

12:33

the top down, or I'm at my parents house or

12:35

um, whatever, and you not only remember

12:37

it, you remember the smell of the food

12:39

that's cooking that day, You're there, sounds

12:42

of the right you're there. Okay, that's divine.

12:45

Okay, that's divine. And also think

12:47

about now, in the days of zoom or we're

12:49

doing everything on zoom screens. So I

12:51

know you've been on zoom screens with a ton of people

12:53

write and you look on a zoom screen and

12:55

you see young, old, black, white

12:57

male female. You you see every

13:00

different people on their right,

13:02

maybe even some people where

13:04

they don't even speak English necessarily,

13:06

so you may not understand what they're saying. If

13:08

I put a beat on, everybody's going

13:10

like this. At the same time that it's that

13:13

uniting thing. So I always say

13:15

the zoom screen is like a quilt. Music

13:17

is the threat. So that's what it is. I mean, it's

13:19

very simply the divine art, and it speaks

13:21

It's God's language. To me, it's the it's

13:23

the language that God speaks to all of us, which

13:26

is why we all understand it. That's why

13:28

we all understand Yeah, and it's in as Biblicu

13:30

it as well. Like that. The

13:40

mystery of music is always fascinated me.

13:42

And when you think about you see in ancient

13:44

culture as you see remnants of instruments.

13:47

This is back when we were just struggling to be able to eat.

13:49

You know, this was clearly something that wasn't just

13:52

you know, for fun. This was a primal need

13:54

that we needed for some reason. And even though we don't

13:56

necessarily can't totally articulate why,

13:59

I think it's it's roof positive that this is something

14:01

that we as humans need in our

14:03

lives. Right, that's a beautiful way you expressed

14:05

it. Yeah, Well, silence is scary, and

14:07

there's and there's there's music and everything

14:11

that happens in life. There's a rhythm when

14:13

you hear the birds sweet, there's a melody with

14:15

it. Uh, there's you know, if you hear

14:18

attractor trailer or a car going by,

14:20

there's a rhythm that there's

14:23

there's always music and everything. We

14:25

just desired as humans to hear

14:27

that and to feel that that

14:29

that's the thing that connects us to nature. We love

14:32

to hear the brook babbling in the background

14:34

and the squirrels running up the tree.

14:37

Is like, we love all that kind of stuff.

14:39

It's just nature is part

14:41

of humanity. And and the one thing I'll add

14:43

to that is we've always talk about, you

14:46

know, how in schools are taking music

14:48

out of schools. If you remember when

14:50

you're a kid, the way you learn your alphabet,

14:52

you don't learn it a B, C D. Nobody

14:54

lines up the letters and goes learn these

14:56

in order. But as soon as you put a melody to it,

14:59

as soon as you go A E, C, D, E F G, now

15:01

you remember it. So why would the very

15:03

route of tools that you used

15:06

to learn the alphabet? Would you

15:08

then go to school and go take music out

15:10

of schools? Because that is the way that you learn.

15:12

It's the reason why you know a kid can't do

15:14

an essay, but he'll sing three

15:16

minutes of any rap song out totally

15:19

memorize. So it just, you know, it's

15:21

just kind of interesting to me. But once again, I just I'll

15:23

go back to what we originally said, it's the divine

15:25

art, a beautiful way to put it. I

15:27

guess the flip side of that my question too. And I'm

15:30

fascinated to hear your response to this to

15:33

people who have I think, by my account, over a hundred

15:35

top ten songs. What do you do on the days

15:37

when the music is not coming? How do you push

15:39

through that when you're you're you're stuck at

15:41

a point when you're working on a song, how do you how

15:43

do you persevere? Do you did you walk

15:45

away from and get away from it? Is it's just willpower

15:48

and plow through. What what do you do when, uh,

15:51

when you hit a musical problem? Well, Jordan,

15:53

I don't think there's a day that the music doesn't

15:55

come. It's just that all those music

15:57

that comes is not great. There's

16:01

always music, and there's always inspiration.

16:04

Sometimes there's better inspiration

16:06

and better music, you know. I tell my wife

16:08

that all the times, Like sometimes you just

16:10

have to wait eighteen hours to get

16:13

that two hours and you know that you're

16:15

inspired to do something, but you have to sit

16:17

there and put the time in to get to

16:19

that two hours. You never know when it's

16:21

gonna come. It might come the first hour, but it

16:23

might be the last hour. You just

16:26

don't know. Well. The other thing too, is that we

16:29

being a team makes it easier because

16:31

I go through periods where I may not be inspired

16:33

or I may not feel I'm coming up with any good ideas,

16:36

and then but Terry'll inspire something

16:38

like Terry will have an idea or mentioned something and

16:40

I was like, oh, yeah, that's that's really cool.

16:43

And then it works both ways, you know where that sometimes

16:46

that happens. You know, it's interesting. I remember

16:48

when we were working this is a while back, I think by Alexander

16:50

O'Neil or something we were working on and

16:52

Terry couldn't figure out a lyric. And

16:55

we've worked and worked and work couldn't figure it out.

16:57

And Terry went to like the amusement park

16:59

or something he went to. He

17:02

went to Disney, and he came back with a million

17:04

ideas because he wasn't thinking about it.

17:06

So we're kind of aware that that is kind

17:08

of the way that that it happens. But there was a

17:10

Terry talked about the usher,

17:12

the significance and usher in our

17:15

in our lives. Yeah, well usher especially

17:17

for me. And I'll tell you I went through a

17:19

period of time where I thought that

17:22

artists didn't really care about music anymore

17:24

and it just didn't feel inspiring

17:27

to me. So I remember going to the studio one

17:29

night and sitting down in Jams office and

17:31

he had chairs, but I sat on the floor because

17:33

I felt that low. I just my battery

17:35

was just drained. I hated to do it,

17:38

but I had to tell him, hey man, I'm

17:40

not feeling this anymore. It's like I feel

17:43

like I'm tapped out. I don't I'm not

17:45

inspired. Nothing that anyone

17:47

says or does makes me feel like I want

17:49

to do music And Jam said, well, I really don't

17:51

feel like that. So I said, well,

17:54

hey man, I'll just keep pushing as far as I can, you

17:56

know, but I just wanted to let you know. And along

17:58

came Usher. We were doing the project

18:00

with Usher, and we started

18:03

working and Usher showed

18:05

me that he was so into

18:07

being great. He wanted to sing

18:09

better, he wanted to write better, he wanted

18:12

to learn, and he was so involved

18:14

in that process that it inspired

18:17

me to want to be part of that process again.

18:19

And basically he restarted my

18:21

my energy and my engine again and he

18:24

pulled me into the next

18:26

however long I'll feel like this,

18:28

but that inspiration is so important.

18:30

And just to be able to work with people who inspire

18:33

you and pull you and push you to do

18:35

things that you wouldn't ordinarily

18:37

do. That's a great story and

18:39

a real story for me because I got

18:42

to a place where I felt like I always feel

18:44

like there's something different, And I think all these

18:46

experiences that we go through right now in

18:49

music is preparing

18:51

us for whatever else we do in Although

18:53

music will always be a part, that

18:56

energy and that knowledge base is

18:58

going to actually propel us into

19:00

something else and be the base of that. So

19:03

I don't know what that is, but here, here

19:05

we are. I'm totally

19:07

excited. I love the journey, and I

19:09

hope I never arrived at the destination

19:11

because then I don't know what I'll do. So

19:15

as long as the journey is going on. Then somebody

19:17

asked us, they said, you know, what if what if you guys

19:19

like write the perfect song or you guys have the perfect

19:21

thing, and it's like, well, then we're done. So I

19:24

guess we're gonna keep trying to do it, but we

19:26

hope we can actually never get there, because yeah,

19:28

it's like that that people say that first

19:30

high that you chase. You know, you get to the first

19:32

high you get, it's just the perfect high. You

19:35

just want that high again. Yeah, well, I

19:37

hope I never get that because I don't. I

19:40

just like the consistency of all of it.

19:42

Is beautiful, warm for a long time

19:44

is our is our motto. When

19:47

we did our very first interview, are kind of local

19:49

Boys make good interview uh

19:52

in Minneapolis after Control

19:54

came out and the first question the interviewer

19:56

asked us, he said, you guys are the hottest

19:58

producers. How does it feel to be the hotest producers?

20:00

And we said, we don't really want to be the hottest

20:03

producers. We just want to be warm for a long time.

20:05

And then thirty years after that, so

20:08

five years ago when Unbreakable came out

20:10

with the Janet album Unbreakable came out, I

20:13

remember we talked with the same the

20:15

same gentleman. His name is John Breen, by the way,

20:17

he's still at the same Star Tribune, which is

20:19

the local Minneapolis paper. And he

20:22

said, wow, he said, you guys realize you've

20:24

had number one records in four decades now,

20:26

in the eighties and nineties, two thousands, two thousand, tens.

20:28

How does it feel to have another number one record? And

20:30

we just said, remember what we told you that first

20:32

interview. He said, what's that? That's warm for a

20:35

long time, and he laughed,

20:37

but I said, that's that's really been our philosophy,

20:40

you know, and the decision making process that that we've

20:42

gone on. How do you stay warm for a long

20:44

time? I just think you make you make decisions.

20:47

You you don't chase. I think we've

20:49

never chased. We've never really tried to chase trends.

20:52

Were were very aware of of things

20:54

that are musically around us. We never

20:57

ever shut down. I remember back in the day,

20:59

because we When I say back in the day, I'm talking

21:01

thirty thirty five years ago when

21:03

sampling first started. And I remember people

21:05

always used to ask us about sampling and they'd go,

21:08

you guys would never sample, right, that's that's you know, that's

21:10

cheat or that's whatever.

21:12

Sample. Yeah, Beethoin never would never

21:14

sample. And I'm like, no, Beethoven was an innovator,

21:17

I said, people that were innovative

21:19

in making music. They were trying to figure out ways

21:22

the doctor, the the the

21:24

the keys or the hammers that hit

21:26

the strings on the piano to give different

21:28

sounds, which is why you end up with harpsichords

21:30

and all kinds of different things. Synthesizers

21:32

were no different, and then sampling technology

21:35

was no different. But what I loved about sampling

21:37

personally was one it was the foundation

21:39

of hip hop music, which we love hip hop music.

21:41

The other thing is, you know, as a

21:43

tool to bridge generations

21:46

together. There's nothing like hearing

21:49

a sample of a song that you go, I

21:51

mean, we we did. I remember twenty

21:53

years ago was all for You with Janet and I remember

21:55

we sampled a song called the Global Love, which

21:58

was changed, and it was a song that I played as a

22:00

DJ back in the day, and I

22:02

always thought, man, that would be cool to sample

22:05

that. We sampled that song, and I remember

22:07

Janet walking into the studio and she loved

22:09

it, but she had never heard the original song, so

22:11

for her it was a brand new song that she was loving.

22:13

But I remember Shawnette, one

22:15

of her dancers, heard it and said, oh, it's a Van Dross.

22:18

I remember this. I love this song and I

22:20

knew that, okay. So if someone that's

22:22

never heard the sample loves it and somebody

22:24

that remembers the sample loves it, that's how

22:26

you bring people together. It was the same thing with Ventura

22:28

Highway used in um Someone to Call

22:31

My Lover, or or Rhythm

22:33

Nation, which was slammed the Family Stone, Thank You.

22:35

You know. So we've always embraced the technology,

22:38

the idea that you know, just

22:40

moving forward and staying fresh and being

22:42

aware of ideas that are

22:44

out there. But then we always try to remember

22:46

then the kind of the musical roots of you know,

22:49

melody, great melodies, great lyrics and

22:51

all those things. So we've always kind of combined

22:53

the two things, and our ear that we've come up

22:55

with in is great. We started with analog

22:58

tape, you know, we went through um,

23:00

you know, digital tape, which we never really

23:02

messed with a whole lot. Terry got into

23:05

like a computer stuff really

23:07

early, as far as the digital

23:09

workstations on computers, which I thought

23:11

was crazy because I was like this, the sounds terrible, and

23:13

this will never work, This will never work. And of course

23:16

now we live in a day where everything is like

23:18

that. And our album is a great hybrid of

23:20

the baby Face song, which was analog tape,

23:23

the Mariah song, which was pretty

23:25

much done in my laptop, you know what I'm

23:27

saying. So it kind of runs the gamut

23:29

of of of everything technologically. Also,

23:32

that was always gonna ask him this new record.

23:34

It's like a great Quincy Jones record. It's a collection

23:36

of all your incredible songs done by a collection

23:38

of always amazing singers. But with all these

23:41

different voices and textures and styles. I

23:43

was blown away by how he unified it sounds.

23:45

Was that a challenge to keep it all sounding

23:48

cohesive? I guess it is the worst. Well to use

23:50

Terry's analogy of of of a tailor,

23:53

the thing is, as I said, you know, you can make

23:55

a suit for somebody, right, and they're gonna pick you

23:57

know, I like black, or I like a you know this

24:00

kind of stitch, or I like this kind of lapel

24:02

or three button or four button or double breasted,

24:04

or you can do that, right, But the thing

24:07

that's going to remain the same is the actual

24:09

tailor that's making the suit. So

24:11

the threads in the suit, the way things

24:13

the quality in which things are sown,

24:15

I guess I would say is gonna be the common

24:18

threat. So you could look at a

24:20

a red single breasted suit at

24:22

a blue double breasted suit, and

24:26

there you will realize that they're totally

24:28

different, but the same Taylor

24:30

did that suit. I can tell from the quality

24:32

of it. And that's the way we always think of ourselves as

24:34

as producers. So the quality is

24:36

the thing, and also the way we sequence the album,

24:39

because it's always nice when we get the opportunity

24:41

to do whole albums where we can actually

24:43

start with a song and end with a song. So in

24:45

this case, the album starts with Sounds of Blackness,

24:48

which we always think is our foundation and was the foundation

24:50

of Perspective Records thirty years

24:52

ago when we did Yeah,

24:55

so thirty years since Optimistic started

24:57

and that was the record that launched Perspective Records.

25:00

But then we ended it actually going back even

25:02

further with reuniting Morri's

25:04

Day and Jerome together, Terry's

25:06

brother Jerome together along

25:09

with the Roots who Questlove,

25:11

Luke Kleslo's mind to finally work with Moore's

25:13

Day on something. You know. It's

25:15

just a nice kind of circle that that happens.

25:18

It's like the beginning and sort of the

25:20

new beginning, I guess you could call it, you know,

25:22

in a sense. So all of that is important,

25:24

and we hope people listen. I know that they're

25:26

going to download individual songs or

25:28

however they want to listen to it. It's up to them.

25:31

But I would love for everybody to listen

25:33

to the whole album from start to finish. I

25:35

would love for that to happen. Books

25:45

it like for you doing that track with with Morris

25:48

and the Rous, I mean, that must have been emotional for

25:50

you in a lot of ways. No,

25:52

it was. It was great because

25:55

it was funny. Quest Love always tells a story when

25:57

we first met for the first time, we

26:00

had a group. Uh. I

26:02

think it was Solo. Maybe we had a group

26:05

called Solo. I think it was Solo,

26:07

and we wanted oh no, no, no, it wasn't Solo.

26:09

It was actually um Angel.

26:12

It was Angel Grant and I think it was Angel Grant

26:15

and we actually they were playing somewhere

26:17

in Philly and doing a big outdoor

26:19

thing and we, you know, we asked could we

26:21

come beyond the show, and he was like, oh, yeah,

26:23

that'd be great. He didn't realize that we

26:25

were actually gonna show up, and they were

26:27

like, Jimmy, jim Terry Lewis are here. Oh my god,

26:30

they're they're like in the band, They're like back in this

26:32

artist stuff, and it just kind of blew his mind

26:34

ever since that that point in time, just

26:36

how hands on we were and how much we cared

26:38

about the artist. But we always thought our

26:40

our role was really to protect the artist and make him look

26:43

great, and that was the case then. But we

26:45

met and we hit it off, and he was shocked that we

26:47

actually knew their music, because I think that people

26:49

thought, well, maybe we don't listen to hip hop or

26:51

whatever, but we totally knew the music and we

26:53

hit it off, so it was like a dream come true.

26:56

He actually interviewed Mores for his show

26:58

that he does, The Quel Less Show, and they

27:01

were talking about that, just how his mind is

27:03

blown. The quest levels said that the

27:05

gateway to Prince for him

27:08

was the Time. And we're forty years

27:10

since the first Time album this year, but he

27:12

said, Prince, he you

27:14

know, heard of him, and he kind of heard his songs

27:17

but wasn't didn't really get it. But when he heard the Time,

27:20

he was like, oh my god, I love this. These

27:22

guys are great. And then you know, somebody

27:24

said to him, well, yeah, you know, but you know Princess

27:26

producing all these songs, and that made him

27:28

then go to Prince. So now we obviously he's a huge

27:30

Prince fan. But his roots in

27:33

uh it's so to speak, no pun

27:35

attended. His roots in jam

27:37

and Lewis were literally the Time.

27:40

So this was a big full circle

27:43

moment for him. I think, I mean, the whole album

27:45

feels like a victory lap in so many ways.

27:47

I mean, with all the friends, all your friends,

27:49

all the people that you've worked with for for so many

27:51

years. I mean, it's just such a great collection.

27:53

I wanted to ask you, how do you know when

27:56

a song is done? The easiest

27:58

way to know when a song is done. I'll

28:00

tell you, Jordan's see this hand right here.

28:03

When somebody has a crowbar and

28:05

probably a gun of some kind

28:07

and they come and pry it out of out of this hand,

28:10

it's like you never want to let your babies go, you

28:13

know. Um. Like I said, it's it's very

28:15

difficult because you never feel like it's

28:17

perfect. I want to get this perfect, and so I

28:19

guess once again, if I make the perfect

28:21

song, I'm gonna have to plick because I'll

28:24

be facing that forever. The easy

28:27

answer would be when they pry it out

28:29

of our hands. But by the way,

28:31

by the way, I will say, you realize, when

28:33

we're producing, what we're doing is we're listening

28:35

for mistakes. So as we're doing

28:37

the songs, all we're hearing is the

28:39

mistakes. What we can make better? What can

28:42

how can we change this? How can we do that? There

28:44

is a certain point where with this

28:46

album where we felt we thought

28:48

we were done with this song when two things happened.

28:50

One was we no longer heard

28:53

the mistakes. We could listen to the song from

28:55

start to finish and not go, oh, we gotta fix

28:57

it. We gotta change that we gotta we could just listen to it

28:59

and just enjoy it. That was one thing. The

29:01

other piece of it, though, was when

29:03

we felt we couldn't wait for the artists

29:06

to hear it. We would get to a certain

29:08

point and then we'd hear it and we'd

29:10

go, I can't wait for Tony Braxton to hear this. I

29:12

can't wait for Mary J. Blige to hear that. You know, can't

29:14

wait for boys them in to hear this. And that was

29:17

the other thing that kind of told us that it felt

29:19

like it was done. So it was more the feeling. We

29:21

just had a feeling that we were we were

29:24

ready to share it, and then even when we were

29:26

ready to share it, as Terry said, they still had

29:28

to come pry it out of our hands to get

29:30

it down to the last Maybe

29:33

the mix could be a little bit better. I

29:35

remember who I think it was. It might have been a Leonardo da

29:37

Vinci quote. Arts never finished, just

29:39

abandoned. Yeah, that's right. What's

29:42

the best compliment that an artist

29:44

can can give to you when you're when you when you just you

29:46

sit them down, you have the final mix, you're doing the

29:48

play back. What's the best response

29:50

that that they can give to you. Wow, there's

29:52

a lot of them, actually, I

29:55

can tell you overall. I'll give you one from

29:57

just overall career wise. One one

29:59

thing we always wanted to do was we

30:01

always did our homework on the artist. We always

30:04

knew what kind of song we would want to hear

30:06

them do. And so I remember

30:08

working with Barry White, and I remember

30:11

that we had done a demo for the

30:13

song kind of we have done the track, but

30:15

we I kind of tried to sing like Barry

30:17

White, and I'm on there like oh, and

30:19

I'm trying to sing right and it's hilarious because

30:21

I can't sing right. I remember when

30:24

we got done, we played in the song and

30:26

the song goes off and there's just kind of a moment

30:28

of silence, and we said, um,

30:31

Mr White, are you was that? That? Was that? Okay?

30:33

How's it sound? And he said he

30:36

just reared back and had this big

30:38

laugh. He said, oh, sounds

30:42

like me. And we said,

30:45

sounds like me. That compliment

30:47

we've gotten from Earth Wind and Fire, from

30:50

the Isley Brothers, from

30:52

when we get that compliment from you know,

30:55

the legacy artists that we've had a chance to work

30:57

with, that to me, is the best

30:59

compliment it because we've captured it. I remember

31:01

even we worked with Lionel Ritchie and Lionel Richie

31:03

laughed when we played that. We did a song called Don't Want

31:05

to Lose You and he heard the song and he just

31:08

laughed. He laughed. He said when he heard it, he said,

31:10

oh my god. He says, you basically wrote my song,

31:12

like you took my song and just rewrote

31:14

it. But it sounds coming from you. I can accept

31:16

it, like I could never write that song again, but

31:19

you guys managed to do it. So that

31:21

to me is always the biggest compliment his

31:24

career wise, I think, and I

31:26

think for our album. I think the moment

31:29

that I remember on our album is

31:31

when we were working with Boys two men, and

31:33

I remember two things happened. One

31:35

was um Sean came

31:38

to the studio Nate in the group

31:40

actually asked could we put real strings

31:42

on our the song we were doing, And so we

31:44

did a session at Capital Studio's historic

31:46

studios, right, and we have Susie Kadayama

31:49

who's our string arranger, and she did this beautiful

31:51

arrangement with hearts and strings and French horn

31:53

and all this beautiful stuff. The

31:56

thing that happens in sessions like that

31:58

is the string players will come in play their part,

32:00

and as soon as you say, okay, that's it, they're

32:03

out the door. And Seawan came to the session

32:05

to listen to it because he hadn't heard the song in a year

32:07

where whenever they had done the vocals on it. So

32:10

he's watching the string players and nobody's leaving,

32:13

and he's like going, He's thinking, well, why why isn't

32:15

anybody leaving? And and even Susie

32:17

was like, you guys gotta be quiet because I gotta do these couple

32:19

of other parts. But everybody wanted to hear

32:21

the end of the song. They wanted to hear how it turned

32:24

out. So that was kind of the first sign that

32:26

there might be something special happening with the boys them

32:28

in song. The second piece was he came to the

32:30

studio right before COVID. He came to

32:32

the studio and he just said, hey,

32:35

how did our song turn out? How did it? And we

32:37

said, oh, we can play it for you, and we put him in

32:39

the chair in our studio and in our studio

32:41

we are doing mixes. This mixes you're

32:43

hearing now our stereo mixes, but we're also doing

32:46

eleven point one surround mixes

32:48

of all the songs. We played him the eleven

32:50

ones around version of the song

32:53

and he cried when he heard

32:55

it, and what he articulated to

32:57

us was that it was that feeling like

33:00

everything you know we talked about time travel with

33:02

with music. His mind was going back to growing

33:04

up listening to like the New Addition songs

33:06

that we had done, and listening to those

33:08

songs, even taking the name

33:11

New The name Boys the Men came from

33:13

a song we wrote for New Addition, and then

33:15

when they did their audition, uh

33:17

for Michael Bivens from New Addition, they

33:20

sang can You Stand the Rain, which was a song they

33:22

wrote. And so later on in life

33:24

when we got a chance to do Four Seasons

33:26

and Loneliness and we got to do on Bended

33:29

Knee, that was like, you know, a dream

33:31

come true for them, actually working with people who they had grown

33:33

up listening to. So now to now

33:35

hear a song, current

33:38

new song that has all those

33:40

same elements that they want in a song,

33:42

you know, chord changes and great

33:44

lyrics and and modulations

33:47

and and dramatic effects and live

33:49

strings and live instruments. Just

33:51

it just made him cry, and he just said, I hope

33:54

people understand this. And

33:56

after being an artist and you're being told you

33:58

know, demographic here

34:00

and analytics here and algorithms

34:03

here and streaming here, that

34:05

to me wasn't the conversations we had. We just

34:07

said, let's go make a great song. And

34:10

I think he heard all of that in that moment

34:12

and it just brought tears to his eyes.

34:14

And so that, to me is the biggest

34:16

compliment, is when the artists fall back

34:18

in love with themselves so to speak, because

34:21

I think that's a good sign that the fans

34:23

will fall back in love with them

34:25

currently not what they used to do,

34:28

but now what they're doing now. And I just

34:30

think there's something very powerful about that. An

34:32

incredible track of falling in

34:34

love with yourselves. You you are doing something that's

34:36

really cool series on Twitter

34:39

right now, thirty five years and thirty five

34:41

days where you're going over your your amazing

34:43

career and legacy. It's been so cool

34:45

to to watch the video clips

34:48

that you've been sharing. What is there anything

34:50

a song and achievement, anything at all

34:53

that really stands out above the rest as

34:55

something that is just truly really that

34:57

that that moment that that you were just to driving

35:00

for voice and what what have you had? One like

35:02

that, one that really is just means

35:04

more to you in your professional life

35:06

than than any others. Yeah, well,

35:08

I I mean for me, I'll just say

35:11

because Terry and I were talking about it the other day. So

35:14

the song. We always say, it's tough to

35:16

say favorite song because there's a lot of reasons

35:18

that's something could be your favorite song. It

35:20

could be the actual process of recording

35:22

it, that's great. There could be um,

35:25

the result of the song, how it touched people.

35:27

It could be because you know all the million

35:29

copies are you know, top the charts. I mean, there's a

35:31

lot of things to be favorite in about

35:33

things, I guess, but the

35:35

song we I guess. I would put it like

35:37

if there was a time capsule and you had to put one

35:39

of our songs in a time capsule, and

35:42

then a hundred years later somebody was going to open it

35:44

up and it says jam and Lewis, and you wanted to know

35:46

everything about jam and Lewis in one song. The

35:48

song would be optimistic by the sounds of black and

35:52

so I think for and then there's

35:54

other reasons beyond that. But we

35:56

were talking about when we went over to when we

35:58

talk about the international language of music, and when

36:00

we were in London, uh and and did

36:03

when they toured over there. We were

36:05

there and it's probably for an

36:07

audience to connect to the stage.

36:09

I mean, what was supposed to be I think a forty

36:11

five minutes show turned into a two hour praise.

36:17

Yeah, it was. I've never seen anything

36:19

like it. And to know that songs we were involved

36:21

with have that effect on people, um

36:25

was, that was just mind blowing to

36:27

me. So so I think that would probably

36:29

be the most impactful moment is seeing

36:31

something live. I think in the studio, our

36:33

most impactful moment would probably be Michael

36:35

Jackson recording with Michael. I

36:38

mean that that was we were like little kids

36:41

when he went in the studio all calm. This

36:43

was to do screen with with

36:46

Janet and Janet. We were in New York and

36:48

Janet said, okay, I'll do my vocal after Michael

36:50

does his, and We've said okay, cool. So Michael

36:52

goes in and does his vocal. But he goes

36:54

in and he's breaking every studio rule, right,

36:56

He's wearing jangly stuff and

36:59

hard to NEOs and just all the things

37:01

that they say don't do in the studio. Right, And

37:04

the song comes on and he

37:06

starts dance. It's like the chance Maiden in

37:08

Devil or something like. He starts spinning and doing

37:10

his things, and Terry and I were like, we

37:12

were like at the concert, we were like, we're

37:15

streaming like little girls. Man, it was like

37:18

it was unbelievable. And then it was funny.

37:20

When he finished, he just kind of

37:22

calmly goes, how was that what?

37:27

But yeah, we're kind of stammering,

37:30

and he goes, do you want me to do it again?

37:32

And well, yeah, yeah, Mike, yeah, go ahead and do it again.

37:34

That that's a good idea, right, So

37:37

Janet leans into us because she's sitting behind

37:39

us, and she leans in between us, and she just goes,

37:41

because we're in New York by the way, she goes, I'll

37:44

do my vocal in Minneapolis heart

37:48

of following Michael's performance.

37:50

And then the funny thing about it was we went to we went

37:52

to Minneapolis, we did Janet's vocal. When

37:55

Michael heard it, he said, oh, Janet's vocals

37:57

sounds really good. And we said yeah, thanks, He said,

37:59

no, that sounds really good. Where did she

38:01

record that? And we said in Minneapolis. He

38:03

said, oh, he said, I want to come to Minneapolis.

38:06

The ultimate competitor, even with his sister,

38:09

right, just the ultimate Competitor. But obviously

38:11

the song turned out great and all of that, and

38:13

but yeah, that that was pretty much impactful studio

38:16

moment for sure. We've we've had a few. We've had

38:18

a few over our years. Yes,

38:21

you have it. It means so much to so

38:23

many, including me. It's been such a joint

38:25

and honor speaking before I let you go, My last

38:27

question. Name of your album, Jam

38:29

and Lewis Volume one, Volume

38:31

two. I hope there's plans for that. What

38:33

do you think there any time on

38:35

the horizon for for a sequel? I

38:38

think we can safely say there will be a volume

38:40

two. Actually already started down

38:42

that role. But let's get by um one out. Got

38:45

you. The thing I said is like I always

38:48

said Lebron James when he went to Miami,

38:50

when he left and he went to Miami, and

38:52

I remember at the at the big press conference, and

38:54

he said, not one, not too not three,

38:56

not four. Okay, So that's

38:58

the way we feel about it. We've feel like we're on a new chapter

39:01

of our life right now. We're really excited about

39:03

it, a little nervous because I guess anything

39:05

important to you're a little nervous about. But yes,

39:07

Terry said, no, Volume two was already not

39:10

only in our minds, but already in progress.

39:12

But really we're charged right now to make

39:14

sure that Volume one gets the love

39:17

and respect that we hopefully it's

39:19

deserving of. And we want to make sure

39:21

that's happy and and make sure that the artists are happy

39:23

because to me, it's an elevation moment for them

39:26

and it's a celebration really

39:28

of this thirty five year journey

39:30

to get here. Yes, Shimmy jam Terry

39:32

Lewis, thank you so much for your

39:34

music, your time today. It's been an honor

39:36

and a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks. We

39:47

hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio,

39:49

a production of I Heart Radio. For

39:52

more episodes of Inside the Studio or other

39:54

fantastic shows, check out the I Heart

39:56

Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

39:58

listen to your favorite podcast. B