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Learn more at uh1.com. This

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is intercepted. Welcome.

0:51

To. Intercepted. I'm Jeremy Scahill.

0:54

The. Un Secretary General Antonio Good

0:56

Terrorists is warning that famine in

0:58

the north of Gaza is imminent,

1:00

and he's called on the international

1:03

community to immediately facilitate the delivery

1:05

of aid to the besieged Palestinians.

1:07

Now this comes as a major

1:09

new Un report has issued a

1:11

dire assessment of the humanitarian situation

1:14

in the Strip, predicting that within

1:16

months more than a million people

1:18

could face the most severe level

1:20

of hunger. and the report predicted

1:23

quote alarmingly high acute malnutrition. Rates

1:25

among children under five significant excess

1:27

mortality and an imminent risk of

1:29

starvation. Now, while the Biden administration

1:32

has in recent weeks become more

1:34

vocal in public in demanding that

1:36

Israel facilitate the delivery of more

1:39

aid, president Biden has refused to

1:41

use any of the substantial leverage

1:43

that the U S wields over

1:45

Tel Aviv to back up his

1:48

public rhetoric. In fact, the White

1:50

House continues to operate a pipeline

1:52

of weapons, reese supplying Israel's. forces

1:54

as they continue the mass killing

1:57

operations in gaza this week in

1:59

the early morning hours of Monday,

2:01

Israeli forces once again laid siege

2:04

to Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City,

2:06

surrounding the complex with tanks and

2:08

engaging in heavy fire. The Israeli

2:10

forces then raided the hospital and

2:13

they claim they took 80 people

2:15

prisoner. Palestinian sources say the number is

2:17

more like 150 people who were

2:20

snatched during the operations. The IDF

2:23

claimed that it was conducting what

2:25

it called a high-precision operation alongside

2:27

Shin Bet intelligence operatives, but Gaza

2:30

health officials are saying that anyone who

2:32

tried to move in the

2:34

hospital was targeted by sniper bullets

2:36

and quadcopter attacks. An estimated

2:39

30,000 people have taken

2:41

shelter in the hospital complex and the

2:43

surrounding area because they believed it to

2:45

be a protected area. Now Israel justified

2:47

this raid by saying that its forces

2:49

had come under fire from inside the

2:52

hospital and Israeli media claimed that

2:54

the IDF had what they called

2:57

concrete evidence that Hamas commanders had

2:59

relocated there from the northern Gaza

3:01

Strip and they were using it

3:03

as a command center to manage their

3:05

attacks against occupation forces. Al Jazeera reports

3:08

that an estimated 20 people were killed

3:10

during this raid. At least one Israeli

3:12

soldier also died. The overarching official death

3:15

toll from the past five plus months

3:17

in Gaza has now gone over 31,000

3:19

people including 13,000 children and for all

3:22

the talk of it being

3:26

the Hamas run health ministries

3:28

numbers, those numbers are probably very

3:30

conservative. There are more than 8,000 people

3:33

who are missing and many of those

3:35

are believed to have been trapped or

3:38

died under the rubble of their former

3:40

homes or buildings in their communities that

3:42

were brought down by Israeli attacks. Now

3:45

over the past five plus months

3:47

Israel has made a series of

3:50

unverified claims to justify its attacks

3:52

and raids against hospitals and other

3:54

medical facilities in Gaza. Remember

3:57

in November it attacked al-Shifa

3:59

alleging that the hospital was a major

4:01

Hamas facility and that it was on

4:04

top of an underground command and control

4:06

layer, sort of a Hamas Pentagon. Now

4:08

those claims were co-signed by the Biden

4:11

administration, actually more than co-signed. The Biden

4:13

administration didn't just say, oh, we agree

4:15

with Israel's assessment. The White House said

4:18

we have our own intelligence that indicates

4:20

that Hamas is using that hospital as

4:22

a command and control node. Well, when

4:24

the IDF actually then went in and

4:27

took control of the hospital and they

4:29

brought journalists there, they failed to produce

4:31

any credible evidence to back up these

4:33

major sweeping claims that they had made

4:35

about the hospital. Then they moved on

4:38

to the next raid at the next

4:40

hospital. As a result of these Israeli

4:42

attacks, Gaza doesn't have a single fully

4:44

functioning hospital anymore. Last

4:46

week a BBC news investigation documented

4:48

how medical workers at Nasser Hospital

4:51

were detained and tortured by Israeli

4:53

forces following a February 15th raid

4:55

at that hospital. Among the

4:58

abuses that medical staff who were detained said

5:00

that they endured were being

5:02

stripped naked, being blindfolded

5:04

and beaten, muzzled dogs being used

5:07

to menace the prisoners. Some

5:09

staff reported being doused with cold water

5:11

and held for hours in stress positions.

5:14

As with the Al-Shifa raid that went

5:17

down this week, the IDF claimed that

5:19

that raid last month at Nasser Hospital

5:21

was precise and focused. There

5:23

they said they took 200 people captive. They

5:26

characterized them as terrorists or suspects

5:28

of terrorist activity, including some who

5:30

were posing as medical teams. This

5:32

is part of Israel's constant narrative

5:35

that basically everyone in Gaza is

5:37

Hamas, even the UN and doctors,

5:39

et cetera. In Brussels

5:41

on Monday, the EU's top foreign policy official

5:43

said that there is no longer a question

5:45

of Gaza being on the brink of famine.

5:47

He said it is in a state of

5:49

famine. He said that Israel was using starvation

5:51

as a weapon of war. The Israelis, of

5:53

course, pushed back against that. Now

5:55

with this possible large-scale ground

5:58

invasion looming over the city

6:00

of Rafa on the Egypt border, the White

6:02

House is making it clear that actually they

6:04

don't have any red lines for Israel, despite

6:06

the fact that Biden had seemed to

6:09

indicate that a full-scale invasion of Rafa

6:11

was a red line. The White House

6:13

saying, no, no, no, Israel will make

6:15

its own decisions. Instead, the White House

6:17

is inviting an Israeli team to come and

6:19

discuss a way to do a sort

6:21

of lighter version of a targeted operation

6:23

in Rafa, to discuss all

6:25

of these developments, as well as the

6:27

fate of Marwan Barghouti, the Palestinian resistance

6:30

figure who is serving multiple life sentence

6:32

in an Israeli prison. There were reports

6:34

this week that he has been beaten

6:36

in prison. Some have said that he

6:39

is akin to the

6:41

Nelson Mandela of the Palestinian

6:43

Liberation Cause. We go

6:45

to Haifa and we're joined by the

6:47

human rights lawyer and political analyst, Diana

6:49

Butu. Diana, thank you so much for

6:51

being with us here on Intercepted. Thank

6:53

you very much, Jeremy. It's nice to

6:55

be with you. I want

6:57

to begin by some of the most

6:59

recent developments that we've seen. The World

7:02

Food Program is now saying

7:04

that there will be all-out starvation

7:06

setting in in Gaza between now

7:09

and May. Some people say in

7:11

parts of Gaza, that's already the

7:13

reality. On Monday, the

7:16

top EU foreign policy official,

7:19

Yosef Borrell, accused Israel

7:21

of deliberately imposing a

7:23

policy of starvation on

7:25

Gaza. And then we had yet

7:27

another raid on Al-Shifa Hospital

7:30

by Israeli forces, where dozens

7:32

of people were detained. Talk

7:34

about these latest events and

7:37

what you think this says about

7:39

where things are headed as Ramadan

7:42

continues. This is genocide.

7:44

And we've known this from the first

7:47

day that Israel was intending

7:49

to carry out genocide. It's

7:52

important to keep in mind that from day one,

7:55

The Israeli Minister of Defense, Yoav

7:57

Galan, said that there would be.

8:00

No food, no water, no electricity,

8:02

no fuel. And alongside that they

8:05

also me know medicine and that

8:07

what they were dealing with his

8:09

human animals. These. Were his words.

8:12

And so it's not at all

8:14

surprising that now was were approaching

8:16

nearly six months in that we've

8:18

seen starvation deaths in the north

8:21

where most the people who are

8:23

dying are. The. Most vulnerable

8:25

children. And in some

8:28

cases the elderly who are also

8:30

suffering from diseases. Since.

8:32

Not at all surprising that we

8:34

are seeing this and it's not

8:36

at all surprising that we see

8:39

the world's in action when it

8:41

comes to everything from Israel's attack

8:43

on hospitals, to the attack on

8:45

schools, to the attack on Cultural

8:47

Center. as to the it onto

8:49

every every form of Palestinian life

8:51

Because what the messages that Israel

8:53

sending the Palestinians is. If.

8:56

You want to have a normal life. It's

8:58

gonna be outside of Gaza if you want

9:00

to get food outside of Gaza. If you

9:03

want to get medical treatment outside of Gaza,

9:05

you want to go to school outside of

9:07

Gaza. You want to have any cultural preservation

9:09

outside of Gaza. And this is what Israel

9:12

has said that they're doing. And

9:14

this is what they're doing. This. Is what

9:16

they're doing. The sad part is

9:18

is that Israel's made it so

9:20

clear and yet nobody's doing anything

9:22

to stop Israel. Quite the opposite.

9:24

They're providing excuse after excuse for

9:26

Israel to continue this genocide. You

9:29

know, the Biden administration for these

9:31

past five and a half months

9:33

of sustained scorched earth attacks by

9:35

the Israelis has continued. the flow

9:37

of weapons to Israel has continued,

9:39

the political support for Israel has

9:41

prevented other nations of the world

9:43

from demanding an immediate ceasefire using

9:45

the veto power at the United

9:47

Nations, and the past couple months

9:49

we've seen the shift in some

9:51

of the over public rhetoric, your

9:53

stories of Biden growing impatient with

9:55

his great great friend Bibi Netanyahu

9:57

and then. you add kamala harris

10:00

the American vice president starting to

10:02

use the word ceasefire. And

10:04

now Joe Biden, as he stood with the

10:06

leader of Ireland on St. Patrick's Day saying,

10:08

oh, we share common ground with Ireland. We

10:11

need to get a ceasefire implemented as soon

10:13

as possible. But the US

10:15

is very, very clear. There is

10:17

no actual red line regarding Rafah.

10:20

No one should read too deeply into

10:22

the fact that the president actually said

10:24

there was that, no, the US remains

10:27

committed to providing Israel with weapons that

10:29

Washington characterized as being

10:31

used in self-defense. And

10:34

the Democrats appear now to put the

10:36

full blame on Netanyahu, asserting

10:38

that Biden has done whatever he could to rein

10:40

him in. You have

10:42

Chuck Schumer, a very open

10:45

public Zionist, a passionate supporter

10:47

of Israel through all of

10:49

its most horrifying policies.

10:51

He's now saying, oh, the Israelis

10:53

need to choose a new leader.

10:56

Netanyahu has to go. How are

10:58

you reading this refinement

11:00

of the narrative coming out of

11:02

the centers of power in Washington,

11:04

DC? This is the kind of

11:06

stuff that they talk about in the belts, but

11:08

it's not the stuff that actually changes policy for

11:11

Palestinians. But more importantly, it's

11:13

important to note that this isn't just

11:15

Netanyahu. We've seen for the

11:17

past five and a half months, video

11:19

after video, a soldier after soldier carrying

11:22

out war crimes and proudly doing

11:24

so, those soldiers are

11:26

not Netanyahu. Those soldiers

11:29

are part of the Israeli society.

11:31

And inside Israeli society today, you

11:34

see an appetite. You see that there

11:36

is nobody willing to stop this, genocide

11:39

to the contrary. They make fun of

11:41

Palestinians for the fact that there is

11:43

no water. They've made fun of Palestinians

11:45

for not having food. They've made fun

11:47

of Palestinians for not having

11:49

medicine. Most recently, they

11:52

made fun of Palestinians who were killed

11:54

as these food baskets were

11:56

being dropped from the sky. And

11:59

they were probably killed. looking fun at

12:01

Palestinians. So this isn't just one

12:03

individual. This is Israel. This is

12:05

Israeli society. And the reason that it is

12:07

like this is because for

12:10

all of these years, for 75

12:12

years, nobody has reigned in Israeli

12:14

leaders. It's been to the contrary.

12:16

We get these little hints that

12:18

they're not happy. But

12:20

what the US is effectively saying

12:22

now is that it has no

12:25

leverage over Israel. That's the message

12:27

that they're saying to Palestinians. We

12:29

have no leverage over Netanyahu. And

12:31

as much as people are saying

12:33

that this is some row or

12:35

some showdown, the person who's going to come

12:38

out on top is going to be Benjamin Netanyahu

12:41

because he knows that Israel can do whatever

12:43

it wants. And he knows that Biden is

12:45

not going to do a thing to stop

12:47

him. That is true. Of

12:49

course, at the same time, the White

12:51

House pretends that it has no leverage

12:54

over Netanyahu. But actually there were media

12:56

reports over the weekend, including from ABC

12:58

News, that indicate that the Israelis are

13:00

telling the White House that they're short

13:02

on tank munitions, even with

13:04

one senior Israeli official saying, you know, oh,

13:07

this could mean that we don't end up

13:09

winning the war. And they're accusing Washington of

13:11

slow walking some of the recent weapons shipments.

13:13

The US was quick to come forward and

13:15

say, we haven't done that yet.

13:17

But anyone who knows history knows

13:19

that Joe Biden, even just recent

13:22

history under Biden, in 2021,

13:24

Biden was able to bring the intense

13:26

siege against Gaza to a very

13:28

swift halt with a phone call to Netanyahu.

13:30

He basically said that you have

13:33

no more runway, this is done.

13:35

And within 48 hours, Netanyahu was

13:37

in talks with the Egyptian regime,

13:39

and the thing was brought to

13:41

a close. So it's a ridiculous

13:43

notion to imply that the US

13:45

has no leverage. The question becomes

13:48

why Biden won't use any of

13:50

that leverage. And, you know, there's one

13:52

school of thought that Biden

13:54

has been the most tenacious defender

13:56

of Israel when it's at its most violent

13:58

throughout the core of Israel. of his

14:00

half century in politics. But then

14:03

there's another part of this which

14:05

is that Israel has a tremendous

14:07

amount of influence in US politics.

14:10

APAC inside of the United States

14:12

pours money into the campaign coffers

14:14

of politicians or into efforts to

14:17

try to defeat politicians that it

14:19

believes are not sufficiently quote-unquote pro-Israel

14:21

enough. So I want to

14:23

ask you because you're a lawyer,

14:25

because you've worked on these human rights issues, and

14:28

because you follow the politics, what

14:30

is behind the US policy? What

14:33

is driving this right now? It's

14:35

hard to say. I agree with you. I

14:37

do think that Biden has leverage, but

14:39

the message that he's sending is that he

14:41

doesn't have leverage. And so

14:44

the question becomes, as you put it, why

14:46

isn't he using that leverage? I

14:48

think in part is that he

14:50

has taken the position that every other

14:53

American leader has taken, which is to

14:55

kick this issue, kick this issue, kick

14:57

it down the can to the next

15:00

presidency. And he has

15:02

never really wanted to confront Israel,

15:04

to deal with Israel, because at

15:06

this point in time this isn't

15:08

just the question of a phone

15:10

call. It's going to be a

15:12

question of a phone call followed by some action.

15:15

For Netanyahu, this is an end-of-career

15:19

move. We

15:21

know that the minute that Israel's

15:23

attack on Gaza is over, the

15:25

minute after that, Netanyahu is going

15:27

to be out of office. Why?

15:29

The Israeli public does not like him. Whether

15:31

you're on the left wing or you're on the right

15:34

wing, what's left of the left wing, or you're on

15:36

the right wing, all of them are

15:38

blaming Netanyahu. And the only reasons

15:40

that he's prolonging this is first, because

15:43

he can. And second,

15:45

because he knows that by ending

15:47

this, it'll be the end of his political

15:49

career. If you're on the

15:51

right, you are blaming Netanyahu for not

15:54

hitting Palestinians enough over the course of

15:56

his term in office. And

15:58

if you're on the so-called left, left, you're

16:01

blaming Netanyahu for not keeping

16:04

Israelis quote unquote safe while

16:06

an occupation rages on. So

16:09

when it comes to Biden, I think

16:11

that he's just wanted to take this

16:13

position of kicking it down to

16:15

the next presidency, to the next term, to

16:17

the next term. And unfortunately,

16:21

to pick up the phone and to force

16:23

Netanyahu to stop means more than just

16:25

picking up the phone. It actually means

16:27

some concrete action. And I just don't think

16:29

he's willing to go there. I want

16:32

to ask you about the political dynamics

16:34

in Gaza prior to October 7. And

16:37

what maybe we can expect

16:39

going forward, there are some reports in

16:41

the Israeli media that in the in

16:43

this current round of negotiations between David

16:45

Barnea, the head of the Mossad,

16:48

the Israeli Intelligence Agency and other

16:51

mediators that Hamas is going to

16:53

put forward Yahya Sinwar as the

16:55

direct negotiator. Now these are not

16:58

confirmed reports, but it wouldn't be

17:00

necessarily surprising. I mean, Sinwar

17:02

was a couple of decades in Israeli prisons,

17:04

he speaks fluent Hebrew, but

17:06

it does seem that there is

17:09

a lot more discussion right now about

17:11

who may govern a future

17:13

Gaza if there are in fact Palestinians

17:15

left in Gaza after the Israelis are

17:17

done with this campaign,

17:20

this massive attack on

17:22

the uncivilian life and institutions

17:24

in Gaza. But my

17:27

sense is that that Hamas was

17:29

not did not have extreme popularity

17:31

in Gaza prior to this. But

17:34

even among many factions that

17:36

are critical of Hamas or

17:38

anti Hamas, that there does seem

17:40

to be a broad consensus that

17:42

Hamas needs to be part of

17:44

any future discussions on the existence

17:46

of Gaza and how it how

17:48

it would govern. Walk us

17:51

through sort of your understanding of what things

17:53

were like politically in Gaza prior to October

17:55

7, and how

17:57

the tapestry of organizations

18:00

cross occupied Palestine,

18:02

view Hamas going forward. Let

18:05

me preface this by talking about what it

18:07

means to rule over Gaza or

18:09

to rule over the West Bank and I

18:11

using that term in air quotes. And the

18:13

reason I'm using air quotes is because there's

18:16

no such thing as ruling over it. What

18:18

I mean by this is that the

18:21

West Bank is not a sovereign

18:24

state, neither is the Gaza Strip. Everything

18:27

is linked to Israel. There

18:30

isn't a separate currency, there isn't

18:33

a separate economic system. I

18:35

used to joke around and say

18:37

that the Palestinian Authority Minister of

18:39

Transportation has probably as

18:42

much authority over the transportation system as

18:44

a child does over the little train

18:47

that they have. And that's it. It's

18:49

a system in which this

18:51

is a government that is

18:54

the subcontractor to Israel. In

18:57

some cases in the West Bank, it's the

18:59

security subcontractor to Israel. But

19:01

in the case of the Gaza

19:03

Strip, it's not necessarily the security

19:05

subcontractor, but a subcontractor nonetheless. And

19:07

it's because Gaza is not

19:10

an independent state, because the West Bank is not

19:12

an independent state, because Palestine is not free. And

19:15

so because these entities are not

19:17

free, they

19:20

operate effectively with

19:22

their hands tied behind their backs.

19:25

And they can't really do much.

19:27

So if you look at a normal government

19:30

or places around the world, what is it

19:32

that citizens want from a government?

19:34

They want to have some sort

19:36

of economic policy, some healthcare policy,

19:38

some education policy. They want to

19:40

have some policies when it comes

19:42

to retirement. And of

19:44

course, people want to be free. None

19:47

of this can be delivered by any

19:49

shape of the Palestinian Authority in the

19:51

West Bank or by Hamas in the

19:54

Gaza Strip because of the

19:56

control that is exerted by Israel.

19:58

And because of not only- the control

20:00

that's exerted by Israel, but by

20:03

the conditions that are placed on

20:05

Palestinians and by these authorities, by

20:08

the international community. And

20:10

so as a result, if you look

20:12

at public opinion polling in the West

20:14

Bank on October 6th, Fatah

20:17

was, which is the ruling party in the

20:19

West Bank, Fatah was at a low. Not

20:22

only was Fatah at a low, but the

20:24

president himself, we had about somewhere

20:27

in the, I think it's 80% of

20:29

Palestinians said that he should resign. I

20:32

mean, this isn't, please don't run in

20:34

the next election. It is resign. We're not

20:36

happy with you. The

20:38

same idea was present in Gaza, not

20:40

with the same numbers, but

20:42

again, a lot of discontent. And you have

20:44

to ask why. And it's because

20:47

they don't have the ability to properly

20:49

lead, to properly function, to properly govern

20:51

because it's not a state. So

20:54

that was the state of affairs in

20:56

the Gaza Strip. Hamas was not entirely

20:58

popular on October the 6th for the

21:01

reasons I mentioned. And in the West

21:03

Bank, Fatah was not popular on October the

21:05

6th for the reasons I mentioned. Today

21:08

I can't really speak to Gaza because I'm not there,

21:10

but I can speak to the West Bank. Today

21:13

support for Hamas has

21:15

risen a lot. Why?

21:18

Because people see that the

21:20

only political movement that's standing

21:22

between them, between us as

21:24

Palestinians and Israel's extermination

21:27

of us is Hamas.

21:29

That there is a political body that

21:32

is resisting and that isn't just going

21:34

to lay down and allow

21:36

Israel to walk all over us. The

21:39

question becomes, what does it mean for the future? And

21:42

here's where it becomes very important

21:44

for Palestinians to be able to decide their

21:46

own future. I've heard time

21:49

and again from Israeli

21:51

leader after Israeli leader, from

21:53

international leader after international leader, saying

21:56

that there's no future for Hamas

21:58

in Gaza. I'm

22:01

sorry, it's not for them to decide.

22:03

This is entirely for Palestinians to decide.

22:06

And it may be that Hamas decides that

22:09

they don't want to be in the political

22:11

side of things any longer. I don't know.

22:14

But whatever decision is taken has

22:16

to be a Palestinian

22:18

one. And this idea

22:20

of pandering to what the West

22:22

wants, that has got to come to an end.

22:26

Jeremy, I want to share just an anecdote with

22:28

you, if I may, of something

22:30

that happened in 2005 when

22:33

I was part of the team

22:35

that was involved in the Israeli

22:37

disengagement. So in

22:39

2005, Israel pulled out

22:42

of the settlements from the Gaza

22:44

Strip, and it pulled out

22:46

all of the settlers as well. But

22:48

it didn't end the occupation. So

22:51

it took down the settlements for sure. And

22:53

the settlers left, but it didn't end

22:55

its control over the Gaza Strip. And

22:58

at that time in 2005, there was a lot of fanfare. And

23:02

Israel was rewarded quite handsomely for doing

23:06

this withdrawal, this disengagement from

23:08

the Gaza Strip. At

23:10

the time, the members of the

23:13

international community kept asking the Palestinian

23:16

team, I was part of it, what

23:19

is needed to make the

23:21

Gaza Strip viable? And

23:24

actually, President Bush had even asked this question.

23:26

And the answer was simple. Allow

23:29

Palestinians to live freely, an

23:31

airport, a seaport, a

23:33

connection to the West

23:35

Bank, a connection to the world, to

23:38

be able to control our own economy and our

23:40

own future. Now, at

23:42

the time, the Israelis said, no, no,

23:44

we can't do that because they're obsessed

23:46

with control. They're obsessed with

23:49

this idea of constantly controlling Palestinian lives.

23:52

And so in the process of

23:54

discussing things, the Israelis

23:57

insisted that for goods to be able

23:59

to... get in and out of the Gaza

24:01

Strip, that they needed to be

24:03

scanned. And I'll

24:05

never forget the conversation that I

24:08

had with somebody from the Israeli

24:10

side who indicated to

24:12

me the following. He said,

24:15

yes, goods need to be scanned going in and

24:17

goods that are coming out need to be scanned.

24:20

And the level of scanner that we

24:23

require is so high

24:26

that it actually doesn't exist. You

24:29

hear this and you should like scoff

24:32

or say this is absolutely absurd. And

24:35

yet, when we told

24:37

this to the international, like

24:39

the heads of international

24:42

organizations, to heads of state,

24:45

their response was, oh, but you need to

24:47

work with Israel. You need to appease Israel.

24:50

And I'm telling you this anecdote because

24:53

those days of appeasing Israel have got

24:55

to come to an end. And had

24:57

they actually listened to Palestinians back in

24:59

2005, I don't think we'd

25:02

be in this place today. Hey,

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Here's a cool fact. A crocodile

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26:09

at uh1.com. I

26:20

wanted to ask you also about

26:22

Marwan Bharguti. We recently were interviewing

26:24

Dr. Mustafa Bharguti and asked

26:27

him a bit about his potential

26:29

future aspirations, but also he was

26:31

describing the importance of Marwan Bharguti

26:33

to the broader Palestinian

26:35

liberation cause. Of

26:38

course, for people that aren't familiar, Marwan

26:41

Bharguti has spent two decades in

26:44

prison, in Israel. He's

26:46

sentenced to multiple life sentences. In

26:49

a broader kind of mainstream sense, he's been

26:51

compared on some levels to a

26:53

Nelson Mandela-type figure for

26:56

Palestinians. But I think there's

26:58

a broad consensus that he would be one of the

27:00

figures that could successfully preside

27:02

over a free and independent

27:04

Palestine. And Hamas has

27:06

said that he... Now, Bharguti is

27:08

not a member of Hamas, but

27:11

Hamas has said that they are

27:13

prioritizing his liberation in negotiations with

27:15

the Israeli government. Talk a bit

27:17

about Marwan Bharguti, your

27:19

knowledge of his background, his importance,

27:22

and whether you think that

27:24

that is an apt comparison to

27:27

say that he is a Mandela-like figure in

27:29

the context of contemporary Palestinian

27:32

resistance politics. He is

27:34

very much a Nelson Mandela-like figure, but

27:36

there's a big difference between the two.

27:39

And the big difference is that

27:41

the ANC, at every opportunity, was

27:43

making sure to put forward Nelson

27:45

Mandela's name. In

27:47

our case, we have a Palestinian

27:50

president, Mahmoud Abbas, who has spent

27:52

the past 19 years in

27:54

office never really uttering

27:56

his name or pushing for Marwan's

27:58

freedom. And the reason

28:01

that he doesn't do that is because he

28:03

sees him as a rival. So

28:05

who is Marwan Barghouti? Marwan Barghouti

28:07

was a leader of the Second

28:09

Palestinian Uprising and father. He's a

28:11

member of Fatah. He's a

28:14

member of Fatah in the grassroots

28:16

sense. He's an activist

28:18

who has worked in

28:20

a number of different communities. But

28:23

not only did he work in a number of different

28:25

communities, he was also imprisoned by Israel a number of

28:27

times, speaks Hebrew. And

28:30

at the start of Oslo, like

28:32

many others, he very much

28:35

believed in this idea that there

28:37

could be a two state settlement,

28:40

that there could be a Palestinian state. And

28:42

he actually went to the Knesset, spoke

28:45

before the Knesset, and

28:47

talked to them about this idea

28:50

of having a Palestinian state. But

28:53

he also recognizes that

28:56

the issue of negotiations is

28:58

only going to get Palestinians so

29:00

far. And very early on during

29:02

the Second Intifada, he came out

29:04

and said, this process

29:06

of negotiations is a sham. We've got

29:08

nothing out of it except increased settlements.

29:11

And he very much believed in and

29:13

continues to believe in garnering power

29:18

and garnering political support and

29:20

in trying to create an

29:22

opposition to the Israeli

29:25

occupation. And this is

29:27

primarily why he's been thrown in prison.

29:30

The Israelis didn't like

29:32

the fact that he

29:34

was involved with the

29:36

Fatah organizations that were

29:38

involved during the Second Intifada and

29:41

instead arrested him and threw him in jail.

29:43

And he's been, he's now serving, I don't

29:45

even know how many life sentences that he's

29:48

serving without ever the possibility

29:50

of ever being released. Can

29:54

he be a uniting figure? Yes.

29:57

What's so fascinating is that. People.

30:01

Still talk about him even though

30:03

he's been in prison now since.

30:06

Two. Thousand and Two. Twenty two years

30:08

in April Be Twenty two years

30:10

that he's been in prison And

30:12

yet. As I mentioned, we've

30:14

had a a A Palestinian leadership

30:17

that hasn't even uttered his name

30:19

for the over the course the

30:21

past nineteen years. So yes, he

30:23

does have that ability to be

30:25

a leader to unite people. but

30:27

ultimately it remains up to Palestinians

30:30

to decide. I think the bigger

30:32

issue is that we must be

30:34

pushing for his release as we

30:36

must be pushing for the release

30:38

of. All. Palestinian political prisoners

30:41

because there is no way

30:43

for us to build to

30:45

move forward without having these

30:48

individuals in our midst. I

30:50

want to ask you about the

30:53

situation. you referenced other prisoners. the

30:55

situation in the West Bank I

30:57

mean, is it is often doesn't

31:00

get as much attention as the

31:02

horrifying realities occurring and Gaza, but

31:04

there has been an intense Israeli

31:07

campaign that has multiple prongs. On

31:09

the one hand, you have Israeli

31:11

state backed and armed settlers that

31:13

are going in and seizing, snatching

31:16

Palestinians homes by force, and some

31:18

Palestinians have been killed in those.

31:20

Operations and many of them many

31:23

have been displaced. But you also

31:25

have had the official Israeli forces

31:27

going in and rounding up thousands

31:30

of people that they're taking into

31:32

custody as political prisoners and some

31:34

of them are being disappeared into

31:36

the military justice system. Others are

31:39

being held in administrative limbo where

31:41

they are denied the most basic

31:43

fundamental rights of prisoners arm around

31:46

the world. and there are minors.

31:48

There are children that are are

31:50

continuing. To be snatched by Israel

31:53

and held in conditions where they

31:55

are denied access to their families,

31:57

where they are certainly and. Really

32:00

denied any access to lawyers and then

32:02

they're being prosecuted and held in a

32:05

military court systems but described as you

32:07

work on on these cases as well.

32:09

They had a describe what people may

32:12

not be familiar with of the intensity

32:14

of the situation right now in the

32:16

West Bank, what Palestinians are facing right

32:18

now. right? Now I see

32:21

them before. I. Think

32:23

you'd be hard pressed to find

32:25

one thousand and sally that didn't

32:27

have either a family member or

32:29

friend. Who. Has been

32:31

inside an Israeli prison. If

32:33

you look at the statistics,

32:35

I believe in number is

32:38

something like twenty percent of

32:40

all Palestinians. Have been incarcerated

32:42

of health scenes from the West Bank

32:44

and Gaza. Let me be clear. screen

32:46

is. Probably. Forty

32:49

percent of all Palestinian man

32:51

have been thrown into into

32:53

an Israeli prison. What's happened

32:55

since October Seventh has been

32:57

even worse. There's a few

32:59

things that have happened. The

33:01

first is that in addition

33:03

to the the usual the

33:05

violence of abducting people in

33:07

the middle of the night,

33:09

the campaign has been now

33:11

increasing against children. And

33:13

we've seen more and more children

33:16

being abducted in the middle of

33:18

the night since October, the servants

33:20

thrown into prison and many of

33:22

them thrones prison again without charge,

33:24

without trial. What's important to note

33:26

when it comes to children is

33:28

because of rules differ when it

33:30

comes to Palestinian children. First says

33:33

Israeli. Children. The

33:35

system is designed to

33:38

extract a concession or

33:40

to extract. a

33:42

guilty plea from you because if

33:44

you plead guilty to a charge

33:47

then you end up going to

33:49

prison for less time than you

33:51

do if you actually simply await

33:53

trial that's the way the system

33:55

has been rigged is that they

33:58

they dragged it out and a

34:00

way that children can be

34:02

thrown in prison without charge,

34:04

without trial. Eventually, if they

34:06

do get charged with something,

34:08

that they are held in

34:10

prison pending trial for quite

34:13

a long period of time. And if

34:15

you're the parent of one of these children and you're

34:18

faced with a plea, then

34:21

you're more likely going to urge

34:24

your child to accept a plea, even though

34:26

they're not, they haven't done anything, just in

34:28

order to be able to secure their release.

34:31

But since October the 7th,

34:33

not only has that increased, but

34:35

the conditions inside the prisons have

34:37

become that much worse. Of

34:40

all of the children who

34:42

were released during the first ceasefire

34:44

back in November, each and every

34:46

one of them, and I interviewed

34:49

a large number of them, had

34:52

indicated that they were beaten,

34:55

some of them were tortured, all

34:57

of them were denied adequate food. They

34:59

were put, in some cases, 10 young

35:02

boys in one cell. They

35:07

were given enough food for three, and they

35:10

were only given food once or

35:12

twice a day. They

35:15

were only allowed to take a

35:17

bath once or twice a

35:19

week. And in addition

35:21

to being thrown

35:24

into the cells with so

35:26

many people overcrowding, they

35:29

were often beaten for

35:31

everything from asking for

35:33

water, asking to be able

35:35

to take a shower, asking for food,

35:38

asking to be able to see a lawyer, asking

35:40

to be able to see their family. These are

35:42

children that we're talking about. The

35:44

same is true when it has come to women who are being

35:49

held in Israeli prisons as well. Many

35:52

of the women who have been released

35:55

have talked about the violence and often

35:57

sexual violence that has been released. that

36:00

has been needed out against them. Many of

36:02

them talked about torture. And

36:04

again, the same system of not

36:06

giving them access to food, no

36:08

access to water, no access to

36:11

their lawyers, no access to families.

36:14

Currently, there are approximately

36:16

9,077 Palestinians who

36:20

are being held in Israeli prisons,

36:22

including some 700 children. And

36:25

it's about 2 thirds, around 6,200,

36:30

who have not been charged with a crime.

36:33

And that means in that system

36:35

of administrative detention. And there's

36:37

really no way to challenge the system. Because

36:40

the Israelis are in the

36:42

throes of giving

36:45

the state carte blanche, this

36:48

is why we don't even see proper

36:51

reporting about the conditions under which

36:53

people are being held. We

36:55

don't see that the judges are

36:58

demanding that children, children, have access

37:00

to legal representation, they have access

37:02

to their families. Everything has

37:04

been swept under the rug. But

37:07

it's not just that. In some

37:09

cases, the detentions are sometimes two

37:11

and three and four days, where

37:14

we don't even know where the individual

37:16

is held. And I've

37:19

met with some political prisoners who

37:21

have told me that they

37:23

had everything from dogs attacking them

37:26

and mauling them, to

37:28

being forced to crawl around on

37:30

all fours and

37:32

call the prison guard their master, to

37:36

denounce

37:39

any Palestinian leadership. I've

37:42

heard from prisoners where they've said

37:44

that they were held and

37:46

forced to stand around for days

37:48

without any clothing on, with

37:51

their hands shackled high up in the air.

37:54

And again, any complaints, even

37:57

one of them said that whenever he. He

38:00

complained about how tight

38:02

the shackles were on his hands and on

38:04

his legs that he was then beaten as

38:06

well. It's very violent. It's

38:08

very violent. And the

38:11

Red Cross has been

38:13

denied access to these prisons, so we

38:15

really don't know what is

38:17

happening in these prisons at this point in

38:20

time. I want to

38:22

ask you about another line that

38:24

obviously Netanyahu and people from his

38:26

side of the spectrum in Israel

38:28

promote this notion that there should

38:31

be one state, the state of

38:33

Israel, and that Arabs and Palestinians

38:35

who live in Israel and have

38:37

accepted Israeli citizenship and society, that

38:39

they're able to live really fruitful

38:42

and productive and peaceful lives. I'm

38:44

speaking to you right now. You're

38:47

in Haifa. I'm wondering

38:49

your analysis of that portrayal,

38:52

that if Palestinians would

38:54

just accept coexistence under

38:57

the Israeli state, that life would

38:59

actually be fine and tranquil and

39:01

give them the best chance at

39:03

living a fruitful, positive existence.

39:07

The problem, of course, is that that's

39:09

not the reality. So

39:11

20% of Israel's population is

39:13

Palestinian. And that 20% are those who did

39:15

not flee in 1948 and their

39:17

descendants. So

39:22

in 1948, about 150,000 Palestinians remained in Palestine, and that

39:24

number is now close to

39:31

2 million. The

39:33

problem, of course, is that we

39:36

still live in the aftermath

39:38

of the Nakba, and

39:40

there has never been either a reckoning

39:42

of the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of

39:45

Palestine, nor has there been an attempt

39:47

to do anything other than

39:50

to erect a system of Jewish

39:52

supremacy and Jewish superiority. So

39:55

what Israel is effectively saying is if

39:57

you accept Your status,

40:00

As a defeated second class

40:02

inferior citizen who is not

40:04

entitled to the same rights

40:06

as everybody else even though

40:08

you're in your homeland, then

40:10

you know you'll be okay.

40:13

But. The problem is that they're

40:15

never really willing to challenge this

40:18

idea of Jewish supremacy. And so

40:20

what is it look like? The

40:22

first is that there are laws

40:25

that are on the books said

40:27

either directly or indirectly discriminate against

40:29

Palestinians who hold Israeli citizenship is

40:32

about sixty of them. There's more

40:34

if you take into account some

40:36

the other regular regulations and these

40:39

laws of facts practically every aspect

40:41

of your life. So

40:43

for example, there's a law that

40:46

says that. Communities.

40:48

That are of a certain size. Have

40:51

the ability. To. Determine whether

40:53

somebody who wants to move

40:55

into that community, whether they're

40:57

considered suitable, For. The community that

40:59

that should be. Sending alarm

41:01

bells ringing said so people.

41:05

But in the Israeli system, Not.

41:07

Only is it normal, but it's

41:09

been upheld as being with shit

41:11

by the Israeli Supreme court. If

41:15

you try to raise anything in

41:17

relation to the Nakba and you

41:19

know the knack for wasn't that

41:21

long ago, seventy five years ago,

41:23

it's immediately. Shut. Down. A.

41:26

Few try to demand equal

41:28

rights in there have been

41:30

attempts to push forward bills

41:32

in the Knesset to demand

41:34

that Israel be a state

41:36

of it's citizens that's also

41:38

been struck down. There Nothing

41:40

in this sense that ever

41:42

allows you to be a

41:44

full equal. It's always going

41:46

to be a system that's

41:48

based on Jewish supremacy, Jewish

41:50

superiority, and never one of

41:52

equality. And this came became

41:54

much more apparent in the

41:56

aftermath. Of October the Seventh a mini give

41:58

you a couple of examples. So one

42:01

was there was a Palestinian singer who

42:04

on October the 7th posted in

42:06

Arabic on Facebook, La

42:09

Rehleb-i-Lala, there is no victor but

42:11

God. And she used a little

42:14

Palestinian flag emoji. She

42:16

was thrown in prison for that

42:19

post. And

42:21

then after being released from prison for

42:23

every day since she'd been released from

42:25

prison, since the end of October until

42:27

the current day, there's

42:30

been a campaign of demanding

42:32

her expulsion from her

42:34

city, a campaign to demand that

42:36

her husband, who's a

42:39

doctor and the deputy director of a

42:41

hospital, that he'd be expelled from his

42:43

job. Now, I want you

42:45

to contrast that with the

42:48

most popular song that exists

42:50

now inside Israel. It's

42:52

a song that openly

42:55

calls for genocide, which

42:57

has had 20 million

42:59

views on YouTube

43:01

alone. The top

43:04

five songs in the country are

43:06

songs that call for genocide. We

43:09

openly hear Israeli leaders talking

43:11

about genocide. We see people,

43:13

ordinary people post about this

43:16

day in and day out,

43:18

and yet nothing happens to them. Picking

43:20

up on that question then, what do

43:23

you see as a viable and just

43:25

resolution to

43:28

the entire situation? I mean, obviously

43:31

it seems that Joe

43:34

Biden and European officials

43:36

are now trying to talk

43:38

up two-state solution. There

43:40

are others who say there should be

43:42

a one-state solution and that state is

43:44

Palestine. And then of course

43:46

the Israeli government position, certainly under Netanyahu,

43:48

but probably under other governments as well,

43:51

is that there isn't going to be a

43:53

Palestinian state and the world's just gonna have

43:56

to accept that. But given your

43:58

decades working on this, issue

44:00

as a lawyer, as a

44:02

spokesperson for the PLO, as

44:04

an activist, an advocate, what

44:06

in your personal view is

44:08

the most just resolution that

44:10

could come about after the

44:12

Nakba, after these 75 years

44:15

of constant attacks against Palestinian

44:18

people after the events

44:20

of October 7th and the subsequent genocidal

44:22

war by Israel? What does a just

44:24

future look like? First, I think

44:26

it's important for us to focus on

44:29

ending the genocide first. It's

44:32

hard to talk about the aftermath

44:34

without understanding

44:36

what it is that we're going through right now. And

44:39

I don't want any future

44:41

or idea to be only

44:46

thought of based on what we're

44:48

presently going through. That's

44:51

what happened with Oslo in the first place.

44:54

But I want to step back and

44:56

look at the bigger picture in terms

44:58

of where things are.

45:02

I want to contrast and compare a few

45:04

things. So if you look at apartheid

45:07

South Africa and

45:09

the end of apartheid South Africa,

45:13

that was a very important moment in

45:16

history. But

45:19

because apartheid ended in South

45:21

Africa in the way that it ended,

45:23

without ever really addressing the root causes

45:25

of it, we see

45:27

that today that South Africa is

45:30

still one of these places where there's such an unjust

45:34

distribution of resources. And

45:37

looking at Palestine, I

45:39

think that we have to start thinking in

45:41

terms of decolonization. I

45:44

know a big word, whatever, but

45:46

the idea is that I don't

45:48

think we should be basing our vision

45:50

of the future based on the current

45:52

reality. About

45:54

75 years ago, Israel

45:58

destroyed, depopulated, more than than 500 villages.

46:02

Those descendants are still alive. Those

46:04

people are still alive. Much

46:07

of that land has not been used. It's

46:10

possible for us to

46:12

really be thinking of a future that

46:15

is much more visionary, much more

46:17

inclusive, and not one

46:19

that is confined to this idea of is it

46:21

gonna be two state, is it going to be

46:23

one state? Right now,

46:25

I think much of this talk of

46:27

solutions is a way of trying to

46:31

absolve the world of stopping this genocide. Like

46:33

let's just talk about a two state solution

46:35

because then we don't have to really focus

46:37

on holding Israel

46:39

accountable for committing

46:41

genocide. And I think that

46:43

we have to think much bigger and much broader than

46:45

that. And when I think about bigger and broader than

46:48

that, I do think that we

46:50

have to recognize that the

46:52

Nakba happened not very

46:54

long ago, that there has

46:56

to be a process of

46:59

decolonizing the place, that Palestinians

47:01

must be given their rights,

47:04

that Palestinians do have the right to

47:06

return, and that anybody who

47:08

wants to see this place prosper

47:11

should be demanding that Palestinians be able

47:14

to return. This is your capital. This

47:16

is where your investment is. And

47:19

instead, I think that there isn't really a

47:21

future any longer for Zionism.

47:24

And I think that the Israelis

47:28

have to soon come to this

47:30

realization. They've been given

47:33

the message that they can build

47:35

a state on the

47:37

ruins of another

47:40

country, that they can continue to, as

47:43

the British had done, beat the

47:45

natives over the head and hope that

47:47

they will somehow beat them into submission.

47:50

I think they have to now

47:52

recognize that that's just not going

47:54

to be a formula for

47:57

future prosperity. And

48:00

instead, we have to think

48:02

about going to

48:04

a place where Palestinians are given

48:06

their proper rights, no

48:09

longer as secondary

48:11

or as second-class citizens

48:13

or under this carpet

48:16

of Jewish supremacy. On

48:18

that note, though, I wanted to ask you about

48:20

public opinion in Israel, about

48:23

the war in Gaza. The

48:25

most recent public opinion polls

48:27

that were taken were in

48:30

late January and found

48:32

that a large majority of the

48:34

Jewish public thinks that the IDF

48:36

is using adequate or

48:38

too little force in Gaza, and

48:41

an absolute majority of the Jewish public

48:43

in Israel, 88%, believes that

48:46

the scope of casualties suffered among

48:48

Palestinians in Gaza are justified.

48:50

Yes. A lot of my

48:52

Palestinian friends say, how do

48:54

you coexist with a population

48:57

that holds those opinions? And, you know,

48:59

I mean, it's Israel often, well, we

49:01

have a right to exist, we have

49:03

a right to self-defense. And

49:05

then you have the White House sort of now saying, well, this

49:07

is a Netanyahu extremist thing. But I

49:10

think the reality is that you have a

49:12

very solid majority of the Jewish

49:14

Israeli public that believes

49:17

this is perfectly acceptable to do to

49:19

the people of Gaza. Absolutely.

49:22

That's the part that's so terrifying, is

49:25

that when we talk about genocide,

49:27

this isn't just one statement coming

49:29

from one individual, it's not just

49:31

one soldier that's in Gaza. This

49:35

is an entire system that is

49:37

taking their orders from the top

49:39

down. We've heard the

49:41

president say that there are

49:43

no innocents in Gaza. We've heard

49:46

the prime minister refer to this as

49:48

the children of light versus the children of darkness.

49:50

We've heard the minister of defense. It just goes down

49:52

and down and down. If you

49:55

turn on the TV on any given

49:57

day, you'll hear one Israeli commentator after

49:59

another. saying things like we need to get

50:01

rid of them. There should have been 100,000 dead at this point

50:05

in time. And you

50:07

can see as you drive throughout

50:10

the country, signs that read, finish

50:12

them. Signs that read,

50:14

together we will succeed. And when I

50:16

probe people and ask them, what

50:19

does that mean? What does together mean? What

50:21

does succeed mean? They have no

50:24

way of defining it except to

50:26

say that the more

50:29

destroyed that Gaza is, the better it

50:31

is. Because they've been, again, fed this

50:33

line that if you just beat Palestinians

50:36

more and beat them more and beat

50:38

them more and beat them even more,

50:41

that somehow they will submit,

50:43

that somehow they will become subservient

50:46

and obedient. And they

50:48

haven't quite figured that out yet.

50:50

This is why I say that

50:53

when going through this idea of

50:56

designizing this place, they

50:58

have to be made aware that what Israel

51:01

is doing is not normal. That

51:04

this is not the actions of a

51:06

normal state. Just in the

51:08

same way that you see now

51:10

the aftermath in countries around the

51:12

world that carried out

51:15

genocide, that they have an education

51:17

process. That education process

51:19

has never happened in Israel. The only

51:21

education process that they have been fed

51:24

is that Palestinians are deserving of more

51:27

and more and more violence needed out

51:29

by the Israelis. And that is something

51:31

that really must be addressed. Diana,

51:34

thank you so much for taking time with

51:36

us during Ramadan to have this conversation. Really

51:38

appreciate it. My pleasure. That

51:40

was Diana Butu, a Palestinian human

51:42

rights attorney and political analyst. And

51:49

that does it for this episode of Intercepted.

51:51

Intercepted is a production of The Intercept.

51:54

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51:56

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51:58

by Sean Musgrave This

52:00

episode was transcribed by Leonardo Fireman. Our

52:03

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52:05

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