0:00

This is the BBC. I'm

0:30

Vasha Cummings and I want to tell you a story. It

0:44

starts when a young graduate falls in love

0:46

with a handsome diplomat. Months later,

0:49

a text message upends everything she thought

0:51

she knew about him. So it said,

0:53

it's all a tissue of lies. For

0:56

years, as he's climbed higher in the world

0:58

of national security and AI, she's

1:00

wondered if the truth will catch up with him.

1:03

You can listen to our new series,

1:05

Walter's War on the Tortoise Investigates feed,

1:07

or wherever you get your podcasts. There's

1:26

a moment in your relationship with your

1:28

child when the power shifts. For

1:31

years and years, you tell them how to

1:33

behave, and suddenly they start

1:35

telling you. It's

1:38

uncomfortable. The flashpoints

1:40

strangely familiar. Don't

1:42

live like that. Don't spend money on

1:44

that. Don't date that person.

1:48

It's never good at any age

1:50

to bring someone unsuitable into the

1:52

family. Hey! Kill

1:55

them for getting drunk. Go for it. Don't

1:58

worry, it's not bad, aren't you? Listen

2:03

to the music Andy. Take

2:06

Dave, Carolyn's new partner. He's

2:09

pretty unsuitable by most people's standards.

2:12

He has no money and a long criminal

2:14

record. He smokes a lot of

2:16

cannabis. He starts drinking

2:18

beer mid-morning and by mid-evening he's

2:20

drunk. Perfectly pleasant though if

2:23

you've got no skin in the game. Fun

2:25

really. You're now riding the hell

2:27

horse now. Good. Here

2:30

we go. Whoa. I'm getting the

2:32

same. What? A

2:35

singer? A true born,

2:37

hip-hop. Carolyn's

2:41

grown up daughters Sally and Susan

2:43

had watched these scenes unfolding with

2:45

mounting horror. Dave

2:47

arrived to do some odd jobs for their mum and

2:49

moved in within a fortnight. Now

2:52

more than a year on there's the

2:54

realisation that Dave's here to stay. There's

2:57

a lot at stake. Not only

2:59

their relationship with their mum but what they

3:01

expect to inherit from her. Property

3:04

worth a few million dollars. Sally,

3:06

the older of the two sisters, lives a

3:09

few miles away from her mum and

3:11

until Dave moved in she felt

3:13

she was a big part of her mother's life.

3:16

We were a very close family

3:18

until he came. After

3:21

he came I could see that

3:23

he was winning her over

3:26

and you know that's our mum. We're

3:28

not going to let you just do

3:30

that. We're not going to let you.

3:34

It's our family's money. Should

3:37

we be okay just giving it to

3:39

some loser? Would

3:41

you? Our grandparents

3:44

on both sides. My mum's side

3:46

and my dad's side all really

3:48

worked very hard, bought

3:51

homes that passed on through the family. But

3:55

to think that our grandparents' hard

3:57

earned money would go to... Him

4:01

was just devastating just

4:06

And I never believed in brainwashing before

4:09

But when you see your mom Falling

4:11

for this guy and you see it

4:14

and hear it it can

4:16

happen. It really can happen I'm

4:25

Sue Mitchell and this is intrigue

4:27

million dollar lover from BBC Radio

4:30

4 episode 3 the

4:32

fight Caroline

4:44

had been widowed for six years when

4:46

she met Dave and her

4:48

two daughters already believed that she was losing

4:50

mental capacity Sally

4:53

the oldest had joint bank accounts with

4:55

her mother and helped to do her

4:57

tax returns Now

4:59

with Dave on the scene the

5:02

daughters urgently wanted complete control of

5:04

their mothers money They

5:06

tried to have a declared mentally unfit to

5:08

manage her own affairs It

5:11

was humiliating for Caroline. She

5:13

felt she was under relentless pressure from

5:15

them Your daughter

5:18

said to me that she thought you had

5:20

some kind of dementia She

5:22

thinks I have Alzheimer's they took

5:24

me to the doctor. They gave me the test. I

5:27

did pretty good on it What

5:29

did the doctor say? She wouldn't give it

5:31

an opinion in front of me because she

5:33

was working with my two daughters And

5:36

I'm sure she's talked to them. Yes,

5:38

I forget. I forget a lot of things, but

5:41

I have too much stress Which

5:44

is my biggest problem Do

5:46

you feel like you forget less when you're

5:48

less stressed if I'm less stress? Yeah, I

5:51

don't have as big a problem What

5:54

about being able to make a

5:56

sort of decisions about things so like say

5:58

what you're doing with me the Do

6:00

you feel you're able to make decisions

6:02

about your life and about things like

6:04

this? Yes, I do. Do you? Why?

6:07

Because I've done it for so long and my daughters

6:10

just don't like the way I make

6:13

my decisions because it doesn't involve

6:16

what they want. They

6:18

all try to convince me

6:20

that I'm retarded, that I'm

6:22

mentally incapable. Yes, I

6:24

did forget to pay a couple of bills, but

6:27

my biggest problem is the computer because

6:31

as soon as I got used to one computer, they brought

6:33

me a new one. You sort of feel

6:35

like you have to use it. Then

6:37

my daughter started using it on

6:40

the guys that I wasn't capable of

6:43

taking care of my finances. Well,

6:45

not when it's on the computer that I'm not

6:47

familiar with. I don't have that ability to make

6:50

changes real quick. So you

6:53

kind of feel you are competent and you

6:55

do live independently and you sort of drive

6:57

your car and you sort of go about

6:59

your life. You feel

7:01

that you are in control of

7:03

your own life. I don't feel like

7:05

I have control of my life because they want to control

7:07

it for me. When

7:11

Sally and Susan came over to my house for

7:13

lunch, they felt absolutely

7:15

sure that some loss of mental

7:18

capacity was the only way to

7:20

explain their mother's obsession with Dave.

7:23

They told me the Alzheimer's ran

7:26

in Carolyn's family. They

7:28

believed their mother was in the early

7:30

stages of the disease, even

7:32

if doctors couldn't detect it. Do

7:35

you think she has got dementia? Yes,

7:37

definitely. Has she been diagnosed with it?

7:39

No, we can't get a diagnosis. We've

7:42

tried and tried with her doctor and now she won't go

7:44

back to the doctor. We can't even get her to go

7:46

to an appointment. Would it make a difference? Would

7:48

it give you more rights if you had a diagnosis?

7:50

Yes, it would. We could get power of

7:52

attorney. Yeah. But she won't do

7:55

it and now she won't go to

7:57

the doctor. Her doctor, Dr.

7:59

Slaughter. We've talked to her

8:01

many times about this and she

8:03

still will not diagnose her.

8:07

And all we need is a letter from the doctor. Why

8:09

do you think she's reluctant to diagnose her? I

8:12

think because when my mom goes in there

8:14

for 10 minutes every six

8:16

months, she can carry

8:19

on with the conversation and tell you...

8:22

She's fine. Yeah, she's fine. But

8:25

she's not. And we

8:27

can tell him, but that's us. Yeah, is

8:30

it a liability for them to go

8:32

off our word? Probably. I

8:35

don't know. Carolyn's daughters welcomed

8:37

the chance to record with me what was

8:39

happening between them and their mom, even

8:42

though it meant exposing intimate details of

8:44

their family life. They

8:47

believe there's a really big problem

8:49

of older people losing capacity who

8:51

are ripe for abuse. They

8:53

couldn't get any help and they think

8:55

services and professionals need to catch up.

8:58

When I talked about it with Carolyn,

9:01

she agreed to be recorded because she

9:03

felt she had every right to have

9:05

the partner of her choice, whatever her

9:07

daughters thought. I

9:09

think they're probably sad as well because they miss

9:11

you. You know, they probably do

9:13

to an extent. Susan called me this morning.

9:15

We were very congenial.

9:18

Everything went fine. But

9:20

then when they overstepped their bounds,

9:23

then that's a little different. You

9:26

either have to stand up for yourself or you just lay

9:28

down and let them walk all over you. And

9:31

I basically not had

9:34

to fight them too

9:36

much other than recently over

9:38

David. That's when

9:40

it began. Really? And

9:43

their options, without a diagnosis of

9:45

dementia, their options for stopping things

9:47

here and things unfolding with David are

9:49

limited, aren't they really? Yeah, I

9:51

think they are. That's why they

9:54

do all this rotten stuff. I mean, they're mean.

10:06

I was seeing a lot of Dave and Carolyn over a

10:08

period of several months when he was doing

10:10

building work at my home. That's

10:13

how I found myself with a ringside

10:15

seat in this family fight. I

10:18

knew as a parent how impossible it is

10:20

to control who a teenager hangs out

10:22

with and sleeps with. Here

10:25

were Carolyn's daughters trying and failing

10:27

to do that with their mom.

10:30

I didn't envy them. I'd

10:32

overhear Dave telling this story

10:34

to the other workmen with

10:36

him as the victim. Carolyn's

10:38

daughters, the villains of the

10:40

piece, spoiled, entitled, motivated only

10:42

by fears for their inheritance.

10:47

So do you see how hard it is for me

10:49

to go over there from watching TV

10:52

or drinking a beer and they just show up?

10:54

Oh my God. Do you see how hard it

10:56

is for me? Because I can feel the air,

10:58

the tension, just as soon as they walk in

11:00

it's like, oh shit.

11:02

You're not part of this family. I'll

11:04

never be part of the family. I'm not trying to

11:07

be their dad. I'm not trying to

11:09

be their uncle. I'm not even trying to be their

11:11

friend. When

11:13

Carolyn popped round, as she often did, these

11:16

were the conversations she was hearing. This

11:19

must have been what Dave was saying to her about

11:21

her daughters at home. She's up to

11:24

no good. That's just an

11:26

impression they had in her mind. Still

11:28

helping her mom out, I'm up to no good. Wow.

11:37

I was out with Dave one morning

11:39

heading to Home Depot to buy a

11:41

new shower he was going to put

11:43

in for me when I witnessed first

11:45

hand another escalation of the tension between

11:48

Carolyn and her daughters Sally

11:50

rang Dave. You've

11:54

got a call from Carolyn's daughter? Yeah,

11:56

she says don't call my mom. These

11:59

are my... I'm gonna call the calendar as

12:01

soon as we get that number. I'm

12:07

gonna call the

12:09

calendar. I

12:14

recorded the events unfolding in the air. Dave

12:29

always appeared to be a passive bystander,

12:32

but he always seemed to be winning

12:34

this tug of love over Carolyn. Hello.

12:37

Carolyn. Yes. What's

12:40

going on? Did Sally call you? Yes,

12:42

she did. And she told me not to... Well?

12:44

Yeah. Told you not to

12:46

run. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm

12:49

sorry. Told you not to what?

12:51

Call you. Until I called

12:53

her and talked to her. I'm at Home Depot. Oh

12:55

my God. Well, I had a social worker come

12:57

over. She's gonna get me a fiduciary. That's a person

12:59

to help me with the bills

13:01

and that kind of stuff. Okay.

13:10

Right. Now she's trying to call in

13:12

right now. Yeah, I'm sure she is. Okay.

13:16

And I've told her. So I won't

13:18

answer. I won't answer her calls. Okay.

13:21

And it's still like, well,

13:23

you're the boss. I do what you

13:25

say the thing is, but everything's okay.

13:27

So you're going to... I'm sorry.

13:30

No, no, no, Carolyn. So you're

13:32

gonna have somebody help you so

13:35

you can take care of the bills and they don't need

13:37

to do it. Right. She doesn't need to

13:39

do it anymore. And so I called her and I said

13:41

I didn't need her, but I'm gonna get a fiduciary and she's upset. Okay.

13:45

Everything is fine. Oh, okay. Just

13:47

need her to leave me alone. I know. And let

13:49

me take care of my bills. Okay. Okay.

13:52

She's gonna be trying to call me again. Okay. Okay.

14:00

I'm on my way home. Okay,

14:02

I love you. Love you too. Bye.

14:05

There it is. She's

14:08

smart. She

14:12

wants something. Hello?

14:14

Hey. Hello.

14:17

Did you call him? No, you said I'm at Home Depot. Like

14:20

you're talking about? Well, baby, she's out there.

14:22

She's out there. She's out there. She's out

14:25

there. She's out there. She's out there. She's

14:27

out there. She's out there. She's

14:29

out there. She's outside, but I'm at Home Depot. So, okay. Well,

14:33

you know, because this shit is not good.

14:35

Okay. Well, all right. Well, I don't know

14:37

what's going on, but as soon as I

14:39

get back, I'll call. All

14:42

right, bye. What

14:44

do you think? She's wicked. Daughter.

14:47

Yeah, she said, don't call my mom.

14:50

She called and goes, oh, I just did you call him? You

14:54

know what I mean? On

14:57

the ride back from Home Depot with Dave

14:59

in his van, there were more calls

15:01

from Carolyn's daughter Sally. Control

15:03

of her mother's money was being wrested from her.

15:07

Carolyn was bringing in a social worker

15:09

and a fiduciary, an independent financial manager,

15:11

to do the work on her accounts

15:13

that Sally had done before Dave came

15:16

on the scene. Is that your idea?

15:18

No, it wasn't my idea. I think it was

15:20

a wonderful idea. Having

15:23

Sally said I've made any difference to

15:25

Carolyn or Dave, certainly not

15:27

her instructions that they shouldn't talk.

15:30

Okay, so let's go, Carolyn. Hello.

15:38

Carolyn? Yes. Okay,

15:41

I just got somebody because I didn't eat

15:43

lunch. Okay. And

15:45

Sally called and asked me if I called

15:47

you. She called and said she couldn't get

15:50

ahold of me or you, so she thought

15:52

I called you. Oh, well, that's

15:54

fine because I did talk to her. Okay,

15:57

well, I'll be home in time to come. Don't

15:59

worry. OK. OK,

16:01

bye-bye. Drive, see you soon. I will. Bye-bye.

16:04

Bye-bye. What

16:09

struck me was how quickly it was all

16:11

escalating. How family ties, the

16:14

deepest ties we have, can be

16:16

severed. It's shocking

16:18

how after all the history and love

16:20

you've shared, things happen, things

16:22

are said. Everything changes

16:25

in a moment. Relationships are

16:27

damaged, and we'll never go back to where

16:29

they were. I

16:31

watched it happen that day with Karen's

16:33

daughter, Sally. She was being

16:36

pushed to the periphery of her own

16:38

mother's life. But

16:40

bad as it seemed then, I'd never have

16:42

guessed what was about to happen. While

16:45

I was away working for a couple

16:47

of weeks, Sally had physically attacked Dave,

16:50

something I'd never have thought she was capable

16:52

of doing. She'd been initially

16:54

riled by a look on Dave's face,

16:57

reacted by throwing a beer bottle at his

16:59

truck, and ended up tearing out

17:01

a big clump of his hair. What

17:04

would you think made her that upset that she did

17:06

that? That's a

17:08

good question. She said something to David

17:10

about not being so

17:12

cocky and full of this stuff

17:14

and don't give me that look

17:16

or whatever. And that's when

17:18

she grabbed the beer bottle, threw it at

17:20

his truck. It broke

17:23

the bottle on his truck. I

17:25

jumped up to see what was going on. And

17:28

she shoved me in the

17:30

chest because I was in

17:32

between her and David. So

17:34

I pushed her back. And I hit her. And

17:37

who's side are you coming down on? I'm

17:39

coming down on his because he didn't hit her.

17:42

He didn't do anything. He

17:44

was on the ground in the garage.

17:46

And she was dragging him around by his hair. Put

17:49

that his hair. She

17:53

ripped all my hair out. It brought me fucking

17:55

40 feet by my

17:57

hair. Kicking attacked her mom. Me?

18:02

It all happened in Carolyn's house, but Carolyn

18:04

hadn't seen it all. Sally

18:06

eventually gave me her side of the story.

18:10

He can get really loud and

18:12

aggressive in your face,

18:15

calling names when

18:17

he's drinking and smoking and whatever else

18:19

he does. Yeah, I

18:22

was very frightened. He said

18:25

I was a liar, that I never brought

18:27

the taxes back. I

18:29

just wanted him away from me. Seeing

18:32

him like that, it worried me for my mom.

18:35

That just made me think, wow, that

18:39

really made me frightened for her. Do

18:41

you remember what went through your head when you sort of reached out?

18:44

I know what went through my head is I'm so

18:46

mad. I don't care. You wanted

18:49

to grab him and... Yeah. When

18:51

you saw the clump of his hair in your

18:53

hand, did it feel satisfying to be... Yes, because

18:56

he was in my face. Physically,

19:01

Dave would have been more than a match for

19:03

Sally. He told me he'd had

19:05

to defend himself from attacks most of his life,

19:08

on the streets and then later in prison.

19:11

So why did he let Sally pull out his

19:13

hair and drag him across the floor? I

19:16

thought he could easily have just stopped her

19:18

without hurting her. I asked

19:20

my friend Angela, a relationship counselor, about

19:22

that, and she explained that

19:24

you can sometimes do more damage by doing

19:27

nothing and that people can be

19:29

provocative just with a look without

19:31

seeming to do a thing. Sally

19:34

has been driven to

19:36

despair, trying to effectively wake

19:38

her mum up, almost

19:41

focusing that energy on Dave

19:44

and watching him, I guess, being

19:46

quite passive, almost like he's

19:48

smirking at her. So if you

19:51

sense a smirk, the individual

19:53

is going through two emotions.

19:55

One is like, I saw that and

19:58

I know what that means. That

20:00

means you know exactly what's going on. And

20:03

at the same time, I can't help but

20:05

want to get you out

20:07

of the way. And the only way I feel

20:10

I can do it is to physically attack you,

20:12

because how dare you? I think

20:14

you see all of that happening with Sally. And

20:17

Dave just sits back. And

20:19

what you see as the viewer,

20:21

Carolyn, is your

20:23

lover being attacked by your child,

20:26

and your lover is innocent. So

20:29

what's your child? Guilty. Your

20:31

child's got to go, which is such

20:33

a shame for Sally, because she's fighting

20:35

for her mum. She believes

20:38

that her mum is being taken

20:42

for a ride, is the

20:44

victim. This guy's the perpetrator.

20:47

She's rescuing. And

20:49

in her mind, victim

20:52

is mum, right? So

20:55

he's flipped the script. I

21:05

was there weeks later when Sally went back

21:07

to Carolyn's house. Sally's in

21:09

her late 50s, a similar age to

21:12

Dave. She'd brought her little

21:14

grandson along. She'd arranged

21:16

to meet me to do some recording. Maybe

21:19

she thought it was help to have an outsider present.

21:22

But what was immediately obvious was that

21:24

the attack on Dave was the last

21:26

straw, so far as Carolyn was concerned.

21:29

The conversation started on the

21:31

driveway, and unfortunately for Sally,

21:34

all her hurt came out as

21:36

anger. I'm

21:38

not doing anything. Today you're not doing

21:40

anything, but you did. Oh,

21:42

I did something. Wow, get over it.

21:45

What did you do? You beat his head and he tossed his

21:47

head out of his head. What did you do? He took his

21:49

head out of his head. He doesn't matter to me. I don't

21:51

care about him. He doesn't bother with you. You

21:54

did bother him. You took his beard

21:56

out. And he did nothing. Well, what did he

21:58

do? He

22:01

had it coming, Mother. You tell me

22:03

what it is. He had it coming.

22:05

That's all I'm gonna say. Okay. He

22:07

had it coming. He knows what he

22:09

is doing to our family. Damn,

22:12

Mom! And he does not care. Okay,

22:14

Mom. Mom, you don't even know what you're talking

22:16

about, so please just stop. I'm

22:18

telling the truth. You threw

22:20

a beer at his truck. And

22:23

I denied it? Okay. And then you

22:25

can't over-beat the shit out of him.

22:27

Okay. Okay. And he's done

22:29

nothing to me? No, not that I know

22:31

of. Well, yeah, he has. What does he do? It

22:34

doesn't matter. Annihilated me from you. Well,

22:37

I think that's what she thinks. That's what

22:39

you think. Well, that's not it, but yeah,

22:41

he has done that. Yes, he has. Well,

22:43

why shouldn't I eat that? Because they want

22:45

you to be like the relationship that they

22:47

had. We'll never have that again, ever. Why?

22:50

Because... Yeah, why? Because she... Because you're

22:52

out of your fucking mind. That's why.

22:55

Oh, yeah. Because I did something? Yeah,

22:57

you did. What did I do? You

22:59

used the F word. Oh, wow. So, yeah,

23:01

I say the F word. So does David.

23:04

And the other part is that you don't even

23:06

trust me to have a good opinion or to

23:08

have any good thoughts. Look, if you brought into

23:10

your house a felon

23:12

drug addict. Hey, I know.

23:15

He is so kind and he is

23:17

so good. He's a con artist, mother.

23:19

Okay. Con artist. Ask the neighbors. You

23:21

will not ever understand. No, I will

23:23

not ever like him or understand after

23:25

what he's done to me. What did

23:27

he do to you? I will never

23:29

forgive him. Why don't you just...

23:31

You don't even trust your own daughter. That's

23:33

how sick you are. That's right. That's how

23:35

sick you are, mother. Yeah, well, you're the

23:38

sick one. Are

23:42

you all right? Thank you.

23:44

There is. Carolyn

23:47

went back into the house saying she'd telephone

23:49

Dave who was at work. I'm not

23:51

doing anything wrong. Call the police

23:53

and ask them to renew you from my

23:55

brother. Okay, go in your house and do that.

23:57

Thank you. See, this is how it

23:59

is. she treats her daughters. I don't

24:02

know. I'll call Susan. We probably should just get

24:04

a lawyer. Because Susan

24:06

thought we were making progress. See, I've been here

24:09

and Susan hasn't. And Susan's in

24:11

this fantasy that, okay, if we're going

24:13

to do this, and what's going to happen? Well, you

24:15

can't basically do anything that Gary doesn't agree with. Yeah,

24:18

basically. Yeah. Exactly.

24:23

If the cops come, I don't want to leave like I'm doing

24:25

something wrong. Like, oh,

24:27

she's running. Eventually,

24:31

Sally drove off, and I talked

24:33

with Carolyn. She

24:36

seemed to see Sally now the way that Dave

24:38

did, as someone trying to

24:40

destroy her happiness, someone she'd

24:42

been too soft with all her life. I'm

24:45

sorry you had to do this with me. They're

24:48

just upset because of Dave. They feel excluded,

24:50

I think. That's the thing. Well,

24:53

we tried. We tried to be free, Susan. But

24:57

they seem quite controlling of everything.

25:00

Dave? Yeah. He doesn't

25:02

really. But, you know, they

25:05

got to get used to it. God, they were terrible,

25:07

they didn't. But I know, but

25:09

your loyalty is as a mum, isn't it? I mean,

25:11

they're your daughters. Yeah, but

25:13

if they're wrong, they're wrong. You know,

25:15

when they started using bad language, I said,

25:18

I'm ashamed of you. And that's when it,

25:21

they began to get worse. I

25:24

still didn't know that she needs to get a

25:26

language. But in a way, they see

25:29

Dave use very bad language. I still

25:31

gave my father a bit, so, you

25:33

know, you don't judge him. I

25:36

do, and you and my haters don't like it.

25:39

But you still love him, and yeah, you do.

25:41

But then I still love my daughters, but

25:43

they have no right to tell me

25:45

I'm their mum. They should be more

25:47

respectful. Later

25:50

on, I caught up with Sally and we reflected together

25:52

on the state of a relationship with her mum. I

25:56

was so mad. So mad. Yeah,

26:01

it was bad. Well I thought when

26:03

you were talking about with your mom,

26:05

like it struck me that in a

26:07

way it made her side with him.

26:09

Yeah, because she didn't see it all. And

26:12

then you know maybe she might not have taken

26:15

my side if she had. I wasn't what

26:17

happened. You know it felt in a way that's

26:19

a sad thing as a daughter to not have

26:21

your mom take your side. Exactly. Yes,

26:24

very sad. Yeah, very

26:26

hard, very difficult. But she

26:29

just, I don't know, I

26:31

don't understand it. It's a,

26:34

and the age difference too. I'm

26:37

sure she could have found a man her own age, someone

26:41

at the church, or

26:43

maybe not even have

26:45

a man, at least not one in

26:47

their home. You know someone to do

26:50

things with, but yeah. Yeah.

26:55

That evening I play some of the recordings

26:57

to my friend Angela, the psychologist. She

27:00

thought that the way Carolyn had aligned

27:02

herself so totally with Dave against her

27:04

own daughter was a sign that something

27:07

was amiss with her. It

27:09

was a reason for them to worry. And she

27:12

used the same words that Sally

27:14

had used describing Dave's influence on

27:16

Carolyn, brainwashing. What

27:19

I was hearing was, mom come

27:21

on, you're losing your

27:24

focus because this person has taken

27:26

over your mind. Like, er,

27:29

and it was a little girl with

27:31

her mom going, come on, don't you

27:33

see what's going on? And it really

27:36

wasn't happening. I think that she's

27:38

almost become pushed to one side of her

27:41

own life. And

27:43

her daughters are just now nowhere in

27:45

this picture. And she's going along with

27:48

it. So when I talk about brainwashing,

27:50

that's what I mean. It does begin

27:53

to feel like she's

27:55

in a state of being brainwashed. That's

27:57

what the daughters think. That's what it sounds

27:59

like. If she could hear

28:01

what her daughter was saying and say, I understand, I

28:05

hear what you're saying, and I'll

28:07

think about it, I'd be thinking quite

28:09

differently about this. So

28:15

Carolyn, what was happening was changing the

28:17

way she saw her family. She

28:19

no longer regarded them as close and

28:22

told me that they never had been. Listening

28:25

to her made me feel really sad. You're

28:28

a very wealthy woman, and you're living in

28:30

a house that they now think they can't

28:32

visit, and on top of that you've got...

28:35

They didn't want to visit in the first place. They

28:37

never came to see me before days.

28:41

Honestly, they did not. I

28:43

would go down to the beach or the pier occasionally with them,

28:45

but that was it. Do

28:48

you think you're more firmly sided with days than

28:51

with them? No. I don't

28:53

do so. But they

28:56

labeled him a con man, that's how I think she is. They've

28:59

told me that before, but he does not

29:01

call me out of money, out of nothing. He

29:04

always treats me very well. So

29:08

I just think they're not my

29:11

best friends. They might be

29:13

family, but they're not. They never

29:15

treated me like a family lately. Dave

29:20

wandered in, back from work, ready to

29:22

make dinner. I could

29:24

see how all the pressure from outside

29:26

was cementing them together, like

29:28

Romeo and Juliet. It

29:30

just hurts my feelings. No,

29:33

because my kids have called me an idiot. But

29:38

you're not. And all kinds of

29:41

things. Yeah, because they're no good summer

29:43

basically, that's what happens. I

29:46

don't know. All this

29:48

left, chicken. They're mad

29:50

at me because... I

29:53

don't give a everything they want. Everybody

29:55

believes in the same thing. When you get old,

29:57

you go back to school.

30:00

American diaper, you have to

30:02

be tank-loving. It just

30:04

melts me. As

30:17

I sat there listening, it hit me

30:19

that whatever happened now, it

30:22

would just be Dave and Carolyn together. That

30:25

what the daughters feared could come true. That

30:28

Dave could get all the family money.

30:31

Sally and Susan had accused Dave of

30:33

driving a wedge between them and their

30:35

mum. And yet, in trying

30:37

to get rid of him, they'd driven

30:39

that wedge in themselves. All

30:42

they'd achieved was to turn Carolyn

30:44

against them. I

30:46

don't want to be a burden to him. Why

30:49

do you feel you're a burden? Because all

30:51

this stuff that comes up is from my kids. I

30:55

guess really, ultimately though, people would kind

30:57

of understand their fear. I

30:59

mean, you're worth millions of dollars. And

31:02

they are worried that that money will not pass

31:04

to them, it'll pass to David. You

31:06

know what? There's no way I would have given

31:08

it to him, but now I want to. What

31:11

the hell are they doing? And

31:14

I'd give it to David in a hot minute before I'd

31:16

give it to them. So you

31:18

really are seriously thinking of that? I've thought

31:20

it over, but yes. Why

31:22

should I give them anything? I'm

31:30

Sue Mitchell, and that was episode three

31:32

of Intrigue, Million Dollar Lover. You

31:35

can find all the episodes on BBC Sounds. It

31:38

was produced by me and Joel Moores, and

31:40

was written by Winifred Robinson. The

31:43

dramaturge was Flo De Salle, and

31:45

Sound Design was by Tom Brignal. In

31:49

the next episode, with the daughters at

31:51

more of a distance, will

31:53

Dave move in on Carolyn's fortune,

31:56

and what's to stop him if he does? From

32:06

BBC Radio 4, life

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