0:23

Welcome to a very special series

0:25

of conversations diving deep into the mindset

0:28

shift needed for the regenerative transition

0:30

, hosted by Emma Chauw , friend of

0:32

the show and active in the regenerative space

0:34

. For a while , she worked with many of the largest

0:36

food corporations in the world and went

0:39

on a deep personal regeneration journey

0:41

, leading , among other things , to a love

0:43

for cacao . This is the first time

0:45

we host another voice on the podcast , so I hope

0:47

you all give her a very warm welcome . Emma

0:50

, the mic is yours .

0:54

Thanks , koon . It's great to be back , and this

0:56

time in the hosting seat . Through

0:58

six rich conversations with a range

1:00

of guests , we're exploring the role

1:02

of the mind . What mindset

1:04

enables people to serve as regenerative

1:07

leaders for a radically better food system

1:09

? What are the common threads across

1:11

these conversations ? Well , we're

1:13

about to find out . We're looking at regeneration

1:16

from the inside out . This

1:18

series is supported by our friends at Stray

1:20

, who are exploring systemic investing

1:23

with awe and wonder , as well

1:25

as our friends at Mustard Seed Trust , who

1:27

are enabling a transition to a care economy

1:29

that fosters regenerative food systems

1:31

. Thanks so much for tuning in . We

1:34

hope the conversations crack the door open

1:36

for you and invite you to explore new

1:38

ways of thinking and embodiment towards

1:40

a regenerative tomorrow . Rudolph

1:52

Steiner , the father of biodynamic farming

1:54

, said that carbon is the philosopher's

1:56

stone , meaning it can alchemize

1:58

into anything silver , gold

2:01

, whatever we desire . But

2:03

today we see carbon as bad . We have too

2:06

much of it , we want to get rid of it , control

2:08

it , when in reality we just have too

2:10

much of it out of place . And

2:12

if we get it in the right place , carbon

2:14

can turn into gold , enabling

2:16

healthy , vibrant living systems . What

2:19

if what is holding us back is simply a scarcity

2:21

mindset , believing that we don't have

2:23

enough , and really what we need

2:25

to begin with is our own healing to

2:27

shift our own perspective and

2:30

adopt a mindset of abundance , believing

2:32

that we have more than enough . In

2:35

this conversation , we investigate healing as

2:37

our means of evolution as

2:39

a society . I hope you enjoy it . Welcome

2:49

to the show Today . I'm joined by

2:51

Calarose Ostrener , a founding

2:54

partner of Terra Regenerative Capital , which

2:56

is a catalytic fund deploying capital to scale

2:58

regenerative agriculture , secure our food system

3:00

and rebalance the climate . Calarose

3:03

has also been a strategic advisor to

3:05

individuals and organizations for many years

3:07

now , focusing on climate solutions . Amongst

3:10

her experiences , she's played a key role

3:12

in the Marin Carbon Project and Kiss the Ground's

3:14

work , as well as in shaping San Francisco's

3:16

climate programs . I know she'll have lots

3:18

of wisdom to share with us today . Calarose

3:21

, thank you so much for coming on the show and

3:23

we were just having a chat before we hit record

3:25

, because this is the first time we've connected in probably

3:28

three or four years now when it was out

3:30

in California , when I was there for an

3:32

event back in my days at the Ellen MacArthur Foundations

3:34

and , of course , focusing on food , and I remember

3:37

that you helped play a role in shifting my own

3:39

mindset and how I understood carbon

3:41

and I knew , of course , the carbon cycle

3:44

from all my studies and everything , but always

3:46

heard this narrative we have too much . And you

3:48

said it's not that we have too much , it's in

3:51

the wrong place . And you did this little diagram

3:53

and that stuck with me . So I wanted to kind

3:55

of make this a more public conversation

3:57

and firstly say thank you and give a bit

3:59

of background to what

4:01

move they made to invite you on . And

4:05

yeah , I just want to start off by saying for you

4:07

and I'm asking all my guests this when you hear

4:09

the phrase regenerative mind , what

4:12

comes up for you ?

4:14

So I love this question and when I first

4:16

heard you asking some

4:18

of your other guests this question , the

4:21

thought that came to mind was actually

4:23

two thoughts . The first thought I had was

4:26

really about a regenerative mind

4:28

. I suffered a brain injury

4:30

about nine years

4:32

ago and I really got

4:34

to experience the power of our

4:37

brains to heal and

4:39

what it means when you've broken something

4:41

and sometimes certain

4:44

things just don't come back the way they were . But

4:46

all those little dendrites and

4:49

neuro pathways , you know , you can make

4:51

, grow new ones and make new pathways

4:54

. And the brain is so much

4:56

more elastic and

4:58

plastic than we have thought it

5:00

is . And so , you know , in my

5:03

healing process I often envisioned

5:05

my mind itself

5:07

, my brain itself , like regrowing

5:09

new pathways or regenerating

5:13

itself , and that to me , in my mind , it looks

5:15

a lot like a mycelial network spreading

5:17

out . Or you know

5:19

the way you can see those little electrons firing

5:22

across a brain scan if you've ever seen

5:24

one of those . So I had a very visceral , you

5:27

know , image of a mind

5:29

, a brain , regenerating . But

5:32

I think that's different than a regenerative mindset

5:34

. And from when

5:36

I thought about the regenerative mindset , I

5:39

really think there's a couple of things that underpin

5:42

that for me . Again

5:44

, that injury really gave me an opportunity

5:47

to basically

5:49

reset my mind . I think I had a lot

5:51

of platforms laid out for me studying

5:53

with Amrie

5:55

Lovens and a couple

5:57

of students of Donella Meadows , who was

5:59

a great systems thinker of the last

6:01

century , getting

6:03

to study with Dr Herman Daly

6:05

, who was a founder of ecological economics

6:08

, sort of these Western mindsets

6:10

helped lay the groundwork for

6:12

what I think became my regenerative mindset

6:15

, which really pulled

6:17

on much earlier wisdom around

6:19

ecology and indigenous perspectives

6:22

that I had learned as a child . But

6:25

I think for me the fundamental principle was when

6:27

I really realized that we

6:30

have enough , like we have abundance , and

6:32

if we didn't have abundance we

6:34

couldn't heal . If we didn't have abundance

6:36

we couldn't extract and use

6:38

as much as we currently do and actually still

6:41

have life . And the fact that our

6:43

system still operates when we

6:45

pull so much out of it just

6:48

speaks to the abundance of the system . And

6:51

reading a couple of books about

6:53

the history of synthesizing nitrogen

6:56

, I think , like physically we have

6:58

enough chemical abundance in

7:00

our building blocks of life with

7:02

carbon and nitrogen that we

7:05

don't have a scarcity . And I think that kind

7:07

of recognition and I do mean the

7:10

definition of recognizing

7:12

something that maybe you've known

7:15

before but forgotten . And really

7:17

seeing that and recognizing that we

7:19

have the physical capacity for , and in

7:21

fact already operated in a system that

7:24

is abundant , really helped

7:26

shift my mindset and I think for me

7:28

that's the basis of a regenerative

7:30

mindset .

7:32

Thank you , thanks for sharing that very

7:34

personal story of lived

7:36

experience and that relationship with the

7:38

brain too , and what

7:40

we see in natural systems in terms of recovery

7:42

and regeneration , and I love

7:44

this point . I want to hone in on the abundance

7:47

piece because it's come up in other conversations

7:49

and through this series . It's really interesting

7:51

going into it with no expectations at

7:53

all and just seeing what patterns start to

7:55

emerge , and abundance is definitely

7:58

one of them . And the other piece which

8:00

you are alluding to is this aspect

8:02

of remembrance . Maybe it's

8:04

something we hadn't learned in school

8:06

or been taught before in

8:09

the narratives that we're hearing , but then

8:11

when we discover it and

8:13

realize it for ourselves , it's

8:15

sitting in this deeper place , like

8:18

dwelling in this deeper part that's wise

8:20

within us and just

8:22

known the eternity

8:24

. So thank you

8:44

for highlighting those pieces , and

8:47

you've started to reveal part of your journey

8:49

for us . But I'm curious when

8:51

we step back even further and look at

8:54

your journey , even from childhood , was

8:56

there an acute moment that

8:58

sparked this sort of way

9:00

of thinking in terms of the regenerative mindset

9:03

, or was it something that your parents had and

9:05

you were just brought up with ?

9:08

It's such a good question . I've been thinking

9:10

about it and I

9:16

could say , oh , I think it's something I've always had

9:18

. But of course , that's so much a product of

9:20

the environment that I grew up

9:22

in and the adults that were in my life

9:24

and the community that

9:26

I was part of . And

9:30

I think we

9:32

grew up or I grew up very

9:34

how should I say this ? I grew

9:36

up very poor . My family didn't live in

9:38

the same place until I was five

9:40

and we lived all over the world , sort

9:43

of following different jobs or needing

9:45

to go to different places for different reasons

9:48

. But it never felt scarce

9:51

to me . It always felt like

9:53

an adventure and I

9:55

think getting to spend so

9:57

much time in the natural world

9:59

in different parts of the world and

10:02

having so many aunties and uncles

10:04

who were from different cultures

10:06

and who could take me on

10:09

plant walks or teach

10:11

me about

10:13

the physics of the stars my

10:17

dad is a scientist , he's a geophysicist

10:19

and he had a lot

10:21

of scientific friends , and so spending

10:24

time with them and learning

10:27

about science from a perspective

10:29

of being outside in the world

10:31

and then also from an indigenous

10:34

perspective , with different

10:36

friends of our family or

10:38

elders in different communities , I

10:41

think was really

10:43

what gave me that as an early onset

10:46

. I will also say I have to credit going

10:48

to Waldorf School for 13 years and

10:50

the investment my family put in

10:53

and community members put into my

10:55

education there . It's

10:57

a really different way of looking at the world

10:59

and I think the ability to

11:01

see the whole of something

11:04

and also see yourself as an individual

11:06

in relation to that whole is

11:08

a unique perspective that I

11:10

don't think is taught very much

11:13

in our younger educational programs

11:15

, at least not in the United States . That

11:17

sort of Steiner framework of

11:20

learning and being part

11:22

of the world Again . I think then

11:24

after five we really lived in the

11:26

West and so understanding the

11:28

history of indigenous cultures and being able

11:31

to take part of those

11:33

really shaped the way I saw things

11:35

and being able to go out in the field with scientists

11:37

from NIST I grew up in Boulder so

11:39

we had friends who were scientists at NIST

11:42

and NOAA these are some of

11:44

the biggest national scientific institutions

11:46

and

11:49

that in hindsight I can say the combination

11:51

of those two things

11:53

the hard science and

11:56

the indigenous perspective plus Waldorf

11:58

School , I think really gave

12:00

me a different mindset that

12:02

allowed me to approach things

12:05

much more creatively and holistically

12:07

. Then I think , having

12:09

that , I think what

12:11

I my first mindset change that I went through

12:13

in seventh and eighth grade was how do I

12:15

speak to adults about

12:18

why they should care about

12:20

the environment ? And that's really when I found

12:22

Aymre and Hunter

12:24

Lovens and their book with Paul Hawkins called

12:26

Natural Capitalism , and reading that book

12:29

kind of gave me a perspective

12:31

in high school and college to approach

12:34

environmentalism from an economic

12:37

perspective . What are the economic values

12:39

of this ? And then learning ecological

12:41

economics gave me another way to sort of value

12:44

ecosystem services . So

12:46

there was sort of this initial mindset

12:49

for me of having to learn

12:51

about how to speak to Western

12:53

culture and adults about this in

12:55

a term that they could understand

12:57

, which really became about economics

12:59

and efficiency . And

13:01

then I went to work in policy , which again

13:04

allowed me to look at the different

13:06

levers from a more modern Western

13:08

mind perspective . And I think

13:11

what was the silver lining

13:13

of getting a head injury that made me not be

13:15

able to work for about

13:17

a year and a half and really not be able

13:19

to work full time for about five years , was

13:22

I couldn't read anymore and I had a terrible short

13:25

term memory and everything was too overwhelming

13:27

. So I just spend a lot of time outside

13:29

, and I think that's when I really remembered

13:31

that regenerative mindset

13:33

of observation and being

13:36

part of something that was bigger than me and

13:38

the abundance of the system and the interconnectedness

13:41

of that system . And having

13:43

to rework the way I interacted in

13:45

the world without my quick Western

13:48

, quantitative mind was

13:52

, I think , a gift , because it allowed

13:54

me to remember again and

13:56

recognize again that potential

13:59

that is held within a regenerative mindset

14:02

and within the regenerative mind

14:04

itself .

14:07

I was dance or like interweaving

14:10

between that quantitative

14:12

which were often at least I

14:14

know from my experience totally

14:16

over index on the quantitative

14:19

and hyper-rational and

14:21

had buried the creative

14:23

that was so vibrant in

14:26

me as an adolescent and

14:28

then through adulthood and eroded

14:30

until I had a somewhat

14:32

different but an experience where I burnt out

14:34

and I was forced to shut

14:36

down the screen and get

14:38

back into nature . And

14:41

that experience brought me back

14:43

to the mind and saying it's great

14:45

to write reports and do analysis and everything

14:47

that I've been doing and that has a role , but

14:50

let's actually be in it and

14:52

embody it . And again

14:54

, that was one of the pieces of that

14:56

contributed to even shaping this series

14:58

and this conversation we're having

15:00

. So thank you for highlighting it .

15:02

Thank you so much . I love what you said about

15:04

screens , because I had a

15:06

lot of damage to my visual cortex . I

15:08

wasn't able to look

15:11

at a screen I mean like I could look at it

15:13

, but it was really hard to see it , let

15:15

alone absorb or

15:17

read what was on it . And

15:19

then my short-term memory was so bad it was like

15:21

very challenging to process

15:24

, like it took me about a year and

15:26

a half to read a book again , and

15:28

that book was like a book of poetry , actually

15:32

it was the Odyssey . That was the first book I stopped

15:35

to read . I was like I'm on an Odyssey , I'm

15:37

going to read the Odyssey . It was like you know

15:39

, two pages every night for I

15:41

don't know six months or something , but that's

15:44

, I mean , that's . The thing is like we

15:46

do have so much potential and I think

15:48

we forget about that potential

15:50

when we're behind the screen because a

15:53

certain part of our brain turns off . And

15:55

, at least for me , when I couldn't be behind

15:58

my phone or behind my computer or

16:00

watching a television like

16:02

I , another part of

16:04

my brain really turned on and

16:06

it turned on in a way that I

16:09

realized my intuitive capacity

16:11

was equal to my quantitative

16:14

capacity and I just hadn't

16:16

been . It was there before

16:18

but I hadn't been using it . And I think you

16:20

know that embodiment you speak about

16:23

to me really became

16:25

real when I was unable to be on the screen all

16:27

the time . And another piece that I really

16:29

realized was like gosh , climate

16:31

change is like so much faster and

16:33

farther than I thought it was . And here I

16:35

was behind my computer doing like San

16:38

Francisco's greenhouse gas inventory , like

16:40

seven ways from Friday , like we

16:42

did a major urban materials

16:45

, like lifecycle analysis and all

16:47

goods and services sold in San Francisco

16:50

, like LCA , with the Carnegie Mellon

16:52

database and your traditional geographic

16:54

inventory , and I

16:57

don't know , we did five different inventors , like five different

16:59

ways to count our carbon footprint . And you

17:02

know , after I hit my

17:04

head it was like , oh well , the reality

17:06

really is just like this . You know we need

17:09

renewable energy , we need to shift

17:11

our , diversify our modes of transportation

17:14

and we need to reconnect the cycles

17:16

of nutrient and carbon flows

17:18

on this planet and that's done through our material

17:21

consumption . And it

17:23

was just I almost , almost

17:25

got like lost , lost in the weeds

17:27

, you could say . And

17:29

then , having that intuitive capacity

17:32

, come back online and just

17:34

actually having being forced

17:36

, and maybe I don't know if you had this experience with your

17:38

burnout , but being forced

17:41

to conserve energy , like , I literally had

17:43

to choose between like am I going to take a shower

17:45

today , get out of bed and take a shower

17:47

, or am I going to lie here and be

17:50

mad about something because I don't have the energy

17:52

to do both . You know like

17:54

when you have to like conserve your energy , you really

17:56

I don't know . For me , things got

17:58

a lot more simple yes

18:01

, yes , 100% .

18:03

And it's interesting , you talk about the

18:05

recovery . You know it took you five

18:07

years , maybe even longer , to come

18:09

back to working what you call full-time capacity

18:11

. And even now I'm two years

18:14

since the burnout and I've

18:16

started to shed that story

18:19

of like , oh , when I get back to how I was , or

18:21

that capacity , because I was working

18:23

in such an extractive way that I was just leaking

18:25

energy everywhere like

18:27

I thought I was this , you

18:30

know , unending , endless

18:33

battery supply that could

18:35

just be channeled into saving the

18:37

world . Uh-huh , since I was 18 , I was like

18:39

that's what I'm gonna do and I could do that through my

18:41

20s . And then it was like you're done , no

18:44

more . This , this is a finite resource

18:46

, our energy . Yes , and this is what I think is so

18:48

critical to the origin of mine . It's like I

18:50

look around perplexed . I actually struggle

18:53

. I know it's like for you , but I struggle to even

18:55

engage with the climate

18:57

solutions kind of system to

18:59

the extent that I used to because

19:01

of the noise . There's

19:04

so much noise and getting

19:06

distracted and again

19:09

getting lost . It's so easy to

19:11

get lost and forget

19:13

the simplest things . Like , yeah

19:16

, this experience forces sounds

19:19

like both of us to massively simplify

19:21

and get so vigilant and

19:23

discern where we put our energy and

19:25

and what we commit to and what

19:28

we see is true for us or not . Um

19:31

, and I , yeah , thank

19:33

you for highlighting that .

19:34

I love it , it's so fun to talk to you

19:36

about it because , um

19:38

, maybe we were both and

19:40

are , but in a different way like so

19:43

smart , so driven , so energetic that

19:45

it really was endless

19:47

. And I think what I realized was

19:50

just based

19:52

on just like that , because when you're healing

19:54

, your brain takes all the energy , so you just

19:56

don't have any other energy , and so an

19:58

expenditure of energy could be like am

20:01

I going to call my sister or am I

20:03

going to try to talk to my boss ? You

20:06

know , at my old work this was before I

20:08

left um , you know , I was unclear

20:10

how long this injury was going to take to heal . And

20:14

then , like , am I going to get in a fight or an argument

20:16

with somebody about something ? And it had been really

20:18

intense the politics , when I was right

20:21

before I got injured and we'd had

20:23

a lot of forces that were really trying to shut

20:25

down our community choice

20:27

aggregation program , which is the way for the city to

20:29

buy renewable energy , and I learned a lot

20:31

about politics . I watched that

20:33

show , house of Cards , because it like soothed

20:35

my soul , which is terrible , because it's

20:37

an awful show about

20:40

. It means a great show , but it's about an awful system

20:42

and , like I , got so caught

20:44

up in that and just the energy it takes to

20:46

fight and the energy it

20:48

takes to like be in that noise that you

20:50

were talking about . And so you

20:53

know , when I was healing

20:55

, I got to know John Wick

20:57

, who I had met previously , to

20:59

my injury , through through San Francisco

21:01

when he came looking for more compost for the

21:03

Marin Carbon Project , and

21:06

I and I kind of got to know him while I was on medical

21:08

leave and because

21:11

I because I couldn't read anything

21:13

I would listen to

21:15

a lot of lectures by the scientists

21:17

who are part of the Marin Carbon Project and I'd listened to

21:19

John talk and I

21:23

had I couldn't drive myself anywhere

21:25

, obviously so I had people who would kind of

21:27

come and take me places . But you

21:29

know , in doing that , what I realized was that

21:31

when I listened to them talk

21:33

about the carbon cycle and

21:35

moving carbon from the atmosphere into

21:37

the soil , where it was better , you

21:40

know , and it wasn't bad for us , and

21:42

that in the soil , and the way it was an

21:44

excess in the air and

21:46

the way that water stacked on it and the way

21:48

that nutrients stacked on it and the way it made the

21:50

plants healthier , the animals healthier

21:52

and the water cleaner and more

21:55

available . I just that to me

21:57

gave me life and I was like , oh

21:59

, when I engage in that system I

22:01

don't get tired and I don't

22:04

get angry , and angry expands

22:06

a lot of energy . So

22:08

kind of out of necessity

22:11

, but also out of you know , maybe discovering

22:13

a new flavor of something . It was like , oh

22:15

, that's , that's the flavor I'm going to

22:17

pay attention to , because when I engage

22:20

in supporting that

22:22

, I actually

22:24

don't feel as depleted . And

22:27

of course , there's just like a finite limit to the

22:29

energy that you have if you've suffered

22:31

a big injury or a burnout or some

22:33

sort of else , with collapse in

22:35

your life , a major trauma . But

22:38

I think you know that I

22:41

remember distinctly when I made

22:43

the switch from thinking

22:45

I was going to go back to the way I was

22:48

and completely giving that up and just

22:50

accepting that I was alive

22:52

and that that was great and

22:55

that was enough , and just accepting

22:58

that , just like accepting that maybe I was

23:00

never going to read again or maybe I was never

23:02

going to be able to remember numbers again , but

23:04

that I was alive and that

23:06

there were good things and that

23:08

I could

23:10

feel those good things . That was such

23:12

a relief to me , like it just . I

23:15

think that moment of surrender really changed

23:18

, changed my life and has

23:21

. And even when I get a little bit stressed

23:23

now and I think about , oh , I've got it , you

23:25

know , solve this . Or I

23:27

wish I could weigh in on what's going on in

23:29

COP , or I really would like to write a response

23:31

article to the New York Times or the Wall Street

23:33

Journal , I just kind of pause

23:36

and assess , well , like how much energy is that going

23:38

to take ? And usually , like

23:40

most the time , it's too much , you

23:42

know . And versus like calling you

23:45

know Rejinaldo it's an amazing

23:48

indigenous chicken farmer and figuring

23:50

out like how we're going to make hazelnut

23:52

production better next year , which seems

23:54

to give me a lot more energy . And so

23:57

, you know , I think , paying attention

23:59

to I have a , I have an

24:01

auntie who always says you know where

24:04

your attention goes , there your energy

24:06

flows and I think for me , paying attention

24:08

to where that was

24:11

regenerative , where the energy came

24:13

back to me and came back to the

24:15

other people in the system , really

24:18

was a huge change in the how

24:20

I approach things . Instead of just trying to solve

24:23

every problem that came my way . Now

24:25

I have to let go of a lot of problems

24:27

.

24:28

Yes , yes , this is a huge

24:31

tool and practice . It's

24:33

a totally a practice what you're describing , because I've

24:35

done it too and I think if anyone who goes through

24:37

this experience like you have no choice but

24:39

to start measuring

24:42

, basically in the internal scale , after

24:44

every interaction right , media , friend

24:47

for coffee , having a

24:49

, not just work , all these things in the day today that

24:51

we don't realize is also work yes

24:53

, we start to say , did this

24:55

? I asked myself was this energy giving

24:57

, depleting or neutral and

25:00

seeing across my life

25:02

? Because I know that I can't sustain , it's

25:05

not regenerative for me in my day

25:07

today to be running

25:09

at high levels of

25:11

depletive activities most

25:14

of my time and starting

25:16

to reframe , I suppose

25:18

, even what me being making impact

25:21

means in the world , which

25:23

used to be work with all the big food

25:25

companies and scale , scale what's

25:27

scale . And . And then it took

25:30

me going through a period . I remember I was sitting

25:32

at the kitchen table at my parents house

25:34

when I was just burnt out . I just went

25:37

back to Canada from England and I

25:39

was sitting across the table for my mom and

25:41

starting to , like you , surrender to

25:44

this idea that maybe I'd never go back

25:46

into my job changing

25:49

the food system . And I

25:51

remember saying to her is like what if I can never work again

25:53

? my idea of work , of course , and I

25:55

said , what if she has a cousin

25:58

in New Zealand who's farm I visited

26:00

before years ago ? And I said

26:02

what if I went and worked at your cousin's

26:04

farm and then I sat with that longer

26:06

I go ? That doesn't sound bad at all . The

26:09

farm is beautiful . You know

26:11

, it was like this whole idea of value

26:14

and worthiness and how my ego

26:16

was wrapped up in it . And if

26:19

listeners have heard the interview

26:21

that I did with Giles Hutchins , you'll know

26:23

what I'm referring to in terms of the achiever mindset

26:25

and that's totally what was running the

26:27

show so often . And still they

26:30

in my day to day now . It's like so much

26:32

unlearning still , even after going

26:34

through this experience oh yeah , it's like

26:36

, um , it's like a garden .

26:37

You got to tend , you got to tend to it . Yeah

26:40

, those weeds are just cropping up all

26:43

the time all right , um , and I think

26:45

, gosh , I love what you said about you

26:48

know the farm . One of the things I recognized

26:50

was how much

26:52

more energy I got by being outside

26:55

, and I think that one

26:58

of my regrets is now I'm more inside

27:00

and tied to the computer , but for several years

27:02

, mostly because of my light

27:04

sensitivity , which is why I wear

27:07

a hat . Everybody always just thinks it was a fashion

27:09

statement , but I was to hide myself from

27:11

your lights because they were very hard

27:13

on my visual cortex . I

27:15

spent all this time outside

27:17

and I had

27:20

forgotten how much I knew about

27:22

natural systems . But I also was

27:25

so humbled by how much I didn't know

27:27

about natural systems and how much

27:29

they taught me just by

27:31

being outside with them and by talking

27:34

to farmers and ranchers and community

27:37

members who are on living

27:40

with them . And

27:42

I think it

27:44

was so interesting too , because there's this

27:46

other aspect of the achiever mindset which

27:49

I think ties back to scarcity . And

27:51

it's really interesting in that when

27:55

I was an achiever mindset , there was

27:57

always time scarcity . There was

27:59

never enough time for anything right , and

28:03

I was always busy , and I think

28:05

not that I'm not like

28:07

busy now , compared to other

28:10

people in the rural town I live in . But

28:14

I had such a scarcity of time and

28:16

then , when I wasn't in that space anymore

28:18

, when I was forced out of that

28:20

space , I realized that I had so

28:22

much time because if I

28:24

was just in the flow of something

28:26

and really like slowed

28:29

down enough to tap

28:31

into the speed of , like the trees

28:33

or the speed that people

28:35

were actually moving and

28:37

I wasn't involved in like all the clutter

28:40

and all the noise , it

28:42

turns out there was plenty of time . There

28:44

was plenty of time to get to the place I needed

28:46

to get to . There was plenty of time to

28:49

wait for that one person to make the decision

28:52

we hoped that they would make . There was plenty

28:54

of time to tell the story that needed

28:57

to be told . And I

29:00

don't really understand exactly how

29:02

it worked , just that my

29:04

achiever mind created a

29:06

false notion of time scarcity and

29:09

when I was outside and in

29:11

the flow of things , I

29:14

really began to understand

29:17

that like there is a right timing and

29:19

if you are present and observing

29:22

the system , like you can show

29:24

up when that timing

29:26

, when that indication

29:29

starts to come that the timing is ready , like

29:31

when the harvest is ready . You know if you're watching

29:33

, you know , okay , this is when it's

29:35

going to be time to harvest . If

29:38

you're aware of what's going

29:40

on outside , you can be like , oh , this is when this grasshopper

29:43

is completely destroying my whatever

29:45

. You know , and I have this much

29:47

time to really try to make a difference

29:49

. And somehow

29:52

that made me feel a lot better

29:54

, because then I felt like I was part of something

29:57

else and I didn't have to do everything

29:59

, which then gave me so much more time , and in

30:01

that time I could just show up better

30:03

, I could like listen better , I could be

30:05

a better observer , like

30:08

a better partner in the moment to

30:10

whatever I was , you know

30:12

or whomever I was relating to in that

30:14

moment . And I think that's not something

30:17

we get to talk a lot about in

30:20

our kind of work . Work is

30:23

just that ability to be present

30:25

which I think you really feel

30:27

when you're outside , and it's a lot harder

30:29

to feel when you're inside in

30:32

front of a computer screen .

30:34

Yes , yes , and

30:37

hearing you speak when I was

30:39

coming to my mind was several things , and one

30:41

of them I can't remember where I heard it or read it , but

30:43

something around how we need to

30:45

basically return

30:48

and practice moving at the speed of

30:50

nature , which is

30:52

what you just described and I love

30:54

because it's only a product

30:56

and natural symptom of

31:00

separation . Right , this veil

31:02

of separation , of thinking that we as human

31:04

beings are somehow separate and control

31:06

and now fix nature , but actually

31:09

coming back into living as

31:11

part of nature and remembering that I'm

31:14

moving with it , because

31:16

it's that

31:19

hypermasculine energy and

31:21

traits of trying to control

31:24

and thinking that there's not enough

31:26

. I know that was for sure . For me , the

31:28

propeller of all my activities

31:30

was feeling like I couldn't

31:32

do enough , we couldn't move faster to fix things

31:35

, and that took me stepping out

31:37

of it all together to say what happens when I'm

31:39

completely disengaged . And

31:41

I took three months . Well

31:44

, I took six months totally off and I said , ok

31:46

, no , working . For the first time in my adult

31:48

life I do not think about money , nothing , go

31:51

do what I need to do to regenerate myself

31:54

. I call it a journey of self-regeneration and

31:56

, looking

31:59

back at those three months , I'm amazed because

32:01

I was so dropped in and so

32:03

present and not thinking about past

32:05

or future , and I

32:08

live what feels like two years

32:10

worth of life experience

32:12

in three months .

32:14

Yeah , that's awesome

32:16

. I love that , because when

32:18

you're present , time expands

32:21

. It's this interesting phenomenon

32:23

, and so by being present , that

32:25

issue of scarcity goes away

32:27

, which is counterintuitive to

32:29

whatever mindset we were trained

32:32

in . Maybe

32:34

that's the achiever mind , but what really

32:37

strikes me , and I have a question for you , is

32:39

how did you engage

32:42

with your own healing process ?

32:46

I was so deliberate , I have to say , because

32:48

I was let

32:50

down when googling what to do

32:52

when burnt out , because mostly and the doctors

32:55

, at least here in England , were like , let's get you on anti-depressants

32:58

and let's just write you off for stress , and

33:01

I felt not that I'm against

33:03

medication , but I felt like that's

33:05

not the answer for me right

33:07

now . And I had a meditation practice

33:09

. I was actually a teacher that was part of the irony at the

33:12

time . I was even seen as a

33:14

wellness person and then burnt out

33:16

and I had my

33:18

meditation teacher , I had a coach , I had a

33:20

therapist and I set up a

33:22

regimen . It was like I was a

33:24

kindergarten and I would not every

33:27

day but I'd have certain activities that I knew were

33:29

nourishing . And one of my amazing coach

33:31

I was working with she said I

33:33

want you to just journal every morning and answer

33:36

the question of what will nourish my soul today , not

33:39

what do I need to do , what's my to-do list , what

33:41

will nourish my soul today ? And

33:43

for the first time in my life I made

33:46

that my job and

33:48

at one point , when I was coming back into work after

33:50

a couple of months off , I was working like 10 hours a week

33:52

. I'd just design my days so

33:54

that I would do my two meditations

33:57

a day . I'd do some sort of movement , like

33:59

my whole movement practice also switched

34:01

from being a lot of the yang intense

34:03

energy . I grew up as a tennis

34:06

player and athlete too , so that was also a

34:08

big part of my own conditioning To

34:10

moving into the yin and the soft

34:12

. I mean , I don't always need to be training . I

34:15

can . Actually I need to down-regulate

34:18

the nervous system out of fight or flight . Like

34:20

I was working with an osteopath who

34:22

told me she's like your diaphragm

34:25

is completely restricted

34:27

. Like it's not moving and

34:29

I was . When our diaphragm's not moving

34:32

, our body can't

34:34

go out of the

34:36

fight or flight nervous system into the rest and digest

34:38

. So it was literally learning

34:41

how to breathe and let

34:43

my body start to

34:45

normalize . What does

34:47

being in a feeling of safe

34:49

, right , safe , abundant , more

34:52

relaxed state even feel like

34:54

in my nervous system ? And

34:57

I use every tool in my toolkit

34:59

and continue to because

35:01

it's a continual thing Like it's so

35:04

easy , I find , for me to go

35:06

into the default modes and

35:08

catching all the time

35:10

.

35:11

Yeah , I think so . I

35:13

think that's like when we

35:15

operate from a state of fear

35:17

. It is very hard to heal and

35:24

I don't know why . I guess

35:27

that one-headed jury wasn't enough . I suffered a spinal

35:29

injury about four years ago . That again literally

35:31

like put me on my butt , like I couldn't move

35:34

again oh wow , and

35:36

I had to stay in place for

35:39

a long time . I'm just starting to be

35:41

able to be mobile again and

35:45

it was like this time it wasn't my head

35:47

, it was my body and

35:49

I think I

35:52

really believe that in our

35:54

healing is our evolution , like

35:57

personally , and maybe

36:00

epigenetically , and I think as

36:02

a society because I

36:05

really do at this point and

36:08

I don't want listeners to take this the wrong way

36:10

but we're so sick . We're sick

36:12

from stress , maybe we're sick from the food

36:14

we eat or don't eat . If

36:17

you're somebody who is

36:19

not white , you're probably sick from racism

36:22

. There's just so . There's

36:24

war , there's the trauma of seeing

36:26

war . We just

36:28

have so much illness that we

36:30

are fighting and so much fear

36:33

, and it is so hard

36:35

to heal when

36:38

you're in a state of fear , whether that fear

36:40

is immediate . And if it's immediate

36:42

, there's a lot more you can do in terms

36:44

of like you have a rapid response

36:46

, it goes away . And

36:49

they've found now that people who are in

36:51

a very acute situation

36:54

are more likely to heal than people who are in

36:56

chronic situations when exposed to

36:58

stress . So even if just

37:00

your diaphragm isn't working for a very long

37:02

period of time , that chronic

37:05

level of stress really

37:08

can prevent you healing

37:10

. And so it's interesting

37:12

to me that you really focused

37:14

in on , you had the opportunity and

37:16

, in a lot of ways , the privilege to do

37:19

that healing . And I think one of the things

37:21

I really realized was like , wow , I'm so privileged

37:23

, I paid into medical

37:26

leave , working for the state of California

37:28

and the city of San

37:30

Francisco and I'm getting . When

37:33

I was injured the first time , I got 50%

37:36

of my paycheck from a system that

37:38

supported me with socialized health care and

37:40

for the second injury I got , my parents

37:43

took me back in

37:45

and I had a gift from a mentor

37:47

that allowed me to be OK and

37:49

just to take that time and recognize

37:52

my privilege of healing

37:54

and the time that I could like

37:57

. Ok , I have to heal , but also I get

37:59

to heal , and

38:02

I think I don't know how to say this , but we

38:04

just don't often take the time to heal

38:06

, and it can be hard to heal

38:08

if we're feeling so afraid . But

38:11

I really don't think we're going to get where

38:13

we want to be if we don't

38:15

take the time to really see that , hey

38:17

, this natural system has abundance

38:19

built in . We wouldn't be here if

38:22

it didn't . We wouldn't be able to heal

38:24

if it didn't we wouldn't be able to evolve

38:26

if it didn't and

38:29

how we connect with those physical

38:31

structures that exist because we've created

38:34

them , like banks or the

38:36

economy or government institutions

38:38

or social systems , and how

38:40

we start to bring

38:42

those more into

38:44

alignment with the natural cycles

38:46

of carbon and water and energy

38:49

, and just how we position

38:51

ourselves to participate in those cycles

38:53

and to give back to and support

38:56

them . To me that's like

38:58

supporting our healing and I

39:00

know that's like super . It's not something I

39:02

go like hey , I work for Terry

39:04

Regenerative Capital and you should come help

39:06

us heal the planet . I don't think a

39:09

lot of people are ready for that , but

39:11

I think that we have to understand

39:14

, if we're in the regenerative movement , that this is

39:16

fundamentally about healing ourselves and

39:18

our communities and the systems that

39:20

we're participating in , and if

39:23

it's not about that , it's not regenerative

39:25

100% agree

39:27

and I think that's why

39:30

what you described is so important , because too

39:33

often , in my opinion , is the

39:35

regenerative movement and language

39:37

or regeneration solely focused on

39:39

the soil and environmental

39:41

aspects that we can apparently measure

39:43

, and abstracted

39:47

from our

39:49

communities , our health , our individuals

39:52

.

39:52

And it's impossible , I believe

39:54

it's impossible to participate actively

39:57

, in a meaningful way , in

39:59

the healing of our societies

40:02

and our planets if we don't also

40:05

heal ourselves and

40:07

engage in that process . And it breaks

40:09

my heart , like it , I had that revelation

40:12

or realization , as

40:14

I would be in my own journey and still now . And

40:16

I think about how many thousands

40:19

of other people are on

40:22

sick leave because of stress or

40:25

some injury or some issue that happened

40:27

, and they don't have the tools , they don't

40:29

have the support , they

40:31

don't have the financial means to be able to go on

40:33

that journey . And I'm more

40:36

interested in how do we start with

40:38

ourselves ? Start within , because , as

40:40

the ancient saying goes , right as Within

40:42

so without , and as above so below

40:44

, and understand that it's

40:46

a relationship between the two . Like as

40:49

, and nothing's ever perfect . It's not like

40:51

, oh , I heal myself and then I'm ready to go be

40:53

in service of the world . Thank you , being in

40:55

service of the world also helps us

40:58

heal . It's a never-ending journey

41:00

. It takes lifetimes .

41:02

Yeah , and healing ourselves is in

41:05

service of the world , right , I think that's what you're also

41:07

saying is like that , taking

41:09

that , taking that healing , and

41:11

it's not to the selfish stage of like , oh

41:14

, I can't be part of my

41:16

community , I have to heal myself , oh , I can't

41:18

, I can't participate in Leaving

41:21

the suffering of another being because I

41:23

have to heal myself , like , no , that's , that's

41:25

being selfish , that's not healing

41:28

. You know , and I think it's important to call

41:30

out like there's a difference

41:32

between being isolating and selfish

41:35

and taking the time to heal

41:37

and knowing that piece

41:39

of it . And I think you know

41:41

it's interesting to me because there's

41:44

also this sort of this aspect of speed

41:46

and a Transition here

41:48

a little bit , and which is just like if

41:51

we are trying to keep up with

41:53

or make regenerative

41:55

the same as the

41:57

other systems within which we are functioning

41:59

, we are not doing our

42:02

job right . But

42:04

if we just try to make some regenerative

42:06

, something perfect and other and

42:08

you know something I always have

42:10

to work towards it's like you said , it's

42:13

not , it's not perfect , it's never

42:15

perfect , it's . It's about a process

42:17

and I think , ultimately about relationships

42:19

with ourselves , with other people , with

42:22

other , you know , sentient beings , plants

42:24

and animals and the

42:27

soil and the elements and

42:29

you know , understanding

42:32

both the personal responsibility and

42:34

opportunity and that relational piece

42:36

. And I think if we try to make regeneration

42:38

just about something so specialized

42:41

that you know , not

42:43

everybody can participate in it , we will also

42:45

have been lost . And so I think where

42:48

I see myself right now

42:50

in terms of quote-unquote

42:52

work is how

42:54

and where do we connect the

42:57

existing sort of socio-economic

43:00

systems that Western

43:02

culture has created back

43:05

into supporting the healing of

43:07

land and people ? And

43:09

it's not going to be perfect , there's

43:11

going to be a lot of weird like strange

43:14

Chimeras of different

43:17

iterations . But I think that

43:19

if we begin to make those connections

43:21

and foster those relationships by

43:24

bridging practical

43:26

reality with the

43:29

questions of like , does this support

43:31

healing ? Does this support natural

43:34

function of carbon , water

43:36

and nutrient cycles ? Does this regenerate

43:39

? Is this within the

43:41

system of abundance ? Are we not

43:43

only taking but are we also giving

43:45

back ? And I think that's where

43:47

it's so interesting , because we

43:50

take a tremendous amount as humans and

43:52

we're never not going to take . Like , we have

43:55

Clothes and we love them and we

43:57

need food and we need

43:59

water and people love to

44:01

do things because we're active and we're

44:03

curious and you know we're strange

44:05

creatures , so we're always going to take something

44:08

. But I think there are two things that we can

44:10

really do that are regenerative is to understand

44:13

how we foster the life

44:15

and the taking of the thing such

44:17

that it is having its best life

44:19

or participating in life in a way

44:21

that is Positive and

44:24

beneficial . And maybe that's an animals you know

44:26

, like tree range farms . The chickens are outside

44:28

under trees , we're still going to eat them , but

44:30

they're living their best life in it , in a habitat

44:33

where they are originally from , which is a jungle

44:35

lake habitat , and they're having , they're

44:38

living , a good life . And Then

44:40

the question is like , at the end , how

44:42

do we give back ? And that's , I think , why I get

44:45

so fixated on

44:47

. I Always

44:49

come back to compost , like at the end of the day

44:51

, if there's anything I want anybody to do , it's

44:54

to learn how to compost or to participate

44:56

in composting , because then you

44:58

get to see like how much more

45:00

we get when we give back at the

45:02

end of a cycle . And I

45:05

also like to think about how there isn't

45:07

really Well , there is pollution

45:09

. I mean , you can't say there isn't , but pollution

45:12

is just an element that's out of place , like

45:14

we have moved it from one place where

45:16

it was participating in the synergistic function

45:19

Into another place where

45:21

it it's stuck . Either it's in a chemical

45:23

form that it's bound up in and it can't get

45:25

out of , or it's too much

45:27

in the atmosphere and not enough in the soil

45:29

, or , you know , there's

45:31

too many nutrients and water when they need to

45:33

be in in living matter

45:35

and not in liquid . They're

45:38

just out of place . And so if we can

45:40

start to think about how we make

45:42

things , by moving things back into

45:45

place , by recycling , by composting

45:47

, by Undoing

45:49

and such that the undoing

45:52

of something is the redoing of something else

45:54

, that that sort

45:56

of circular economy which I know you and I talked

45:58

about before , when

46:00

seen not just as like what's the

46:02

next reuse of this thing , but how

46:05

does the Unmaking or remaking

46:07

of this thing strengthen or participate

46:09

in natural , chemical

46:11

and biophysical and elemental cycles

46:14

of the planet that drive life , then

46:16

I think we begin to Integrate

46:19

our behaviors and habits as humans

46:21

, which have been framed as so destructive

46:23

, because they , they , they are

46:25

and they can be into something that Can

46:28

actually be regenerative and restorative

46:30

, and that it's . It's not necessarily

46:33

like oh , human behavior

46:35

is just all bad . I mean a lot of . It's not

46:37

great , to be honest , but at

46:40

the same time like we have such potential To

46:42

move those natural behaviors into

46:44

being supportive of the systems that support

46:47

us . And I think that's where there's

46:50

just so much Work

46:52

to be done . But it's not fast work , because

46:55

it's Centergistic work and when

46:57

one piece clicks into place because

46:59

you've helped reconnect a system

47:01

, you're not just bringing one piece online

47:03

, you're bringing that whole system back

47:05

online . And I think that's where it's

47:07

like so Regenerative

47:10

, because it takes time to reconnect one

47:12

piece back into the natural system , but when

47:14

you do the whole force

47:17

and weight and power of that system

47:19

comes with it and then you know we're

47:21

not acting alone . So there's

47:23

a long diatribe , but I think a lot

47:25

about those cycles these days and like

47:27

how we can support

47:30

them and how much we can do in the

47:32

unmaking and remaking to support

47:34

them If we're able to step back

47:36

and really observe and

47:38

learn about the larger systems that we're

47:41

part of .

47:42

Mm-hmm , yes , and it's this piece

47:44

around remembering

47:46

that nature isn't linear and it

47:49

may take , as you're describing , a long time

47:51

to get that piece that's out of place back into place

47:53

, and then that recovery can actually happen

47:55

quite quickly , maybe

47:58

beyond what we might believe or what

48:01

we might be analyzing as or modeling . And

48:04

I want to connect , give you a

48:06

chance to , because I'm curious to describe

48:09

how , how

48:11

did terravagent of capital come

48:13

to be and how does that , how

48:15

is it serving all of what you just

48:17

described ?

48:18

I won't even try and paraphrase , paraphrase

48:20

that last bit that

48:22

you shared with us well

48:24

, thank you for asking and bringing

48:26

us back on track

48:28

and thanks also for having a An

48:31

endeavor that is not about a specific

48:33

track but the exploration . I

48:36

really appreciate that . So

48:38

one thing that I learned when I was

48:40

recovering was

48:43

that Rudolph Steiner , who was the founder

48:45

of the biodynamic agriculture

48:47

and Waldorf schools and homeopathic

48:50

medicine , a bunch of other stuff he actually

48:52

called carbon the philosopher's stone

48:55

and I thought about that

48:57

and I was like , oh , that's fascinating , that

48:59

the Stone that

49:01

can turn into gold or in other fables

49:04

that can turn into anything . The

49:07

way Steiner used that metaphor in

49:09

his description of

49:11

the planet was as

49:13

carbon acting as philosopher's

49:15

stone . So I think

49:17

I kind of was like oh okay , so if we

49:20

are , if we are Working

49:23

with the philosopher's stone and agriculture

49:25

is such an amazing way , you know , agriculture

49:27

via photosynthesis is the

49:29

single biggest way humans manage

49:32

carbon on the planet . That

49:34

is participatory , within a

49:36

natural cycle , and it's not just like we're

49:38

burning fossil fuels and moving that into the atmosphere

49:41

, but like within

49:43

us the carbon , the life cycle of

49:45

carbon , that , that photosynthetic capacity

49:48

of the plants and the management of that via

49:50

agriculture was

49:52

such a strong way to sort of work with this

49:54

philosopher's stone . So with

49:57

Terra regenerative capital , I

49:59

was building on , you know , nine

50:01

years of experience within regenerative ag

50:03

, having come from a

50:05

science perspective , having worked with

50:08

the state of California on rolling

50:10

out their natural and working lands climate programs

50:12

, integrating natural and working lands into their

50:14

climate policy framework

50:16

, which actually is extraordinarily challenging

50:18

because climate policy framework we

50:20

have is built on the Kyoto protocol

50:22

and the EPA acid rain program , which

50:24

are both point source emissions

50:26

pollutant programs , and so we continue to

50:28

treat climate change like a point source

50:30

pollutant program . And even when we

50:32

talk about sequestration , it's sort of a one

50:35

one to move . It's not a one

50:37

, two , three , four , five . It's not a

50:39

cycle . So something

50:41

about that quote of thinking about the

50:43

philosopher's stone , which can turn into

50:45

anything kind of really

50:47

drove me to think about all the ways in which our

50:50

systems push or pull or

50:53

attract carbon and

50:55

how we move it around the planet . And

50:58

with Terra regenerative capital , it's really a

51:00

private sector approach . Now it's

51:02

not . We're not a venture capital

51:04

fund and I think this really speaks to the

51:07

make sure that the structure

51:09

of the thing you're creating is

51:11

in alignment with the outcomes you want and

51:15

knowing that things take time , especially

51:17

in agriculture , because they have to physically

51:19

grow and people have to physically learn how

51:21

to grow them , and

51:26

they take time to build large facilities

51:28

for processing and manufacturing . Knowing

51:31

that these things take time and knowing that they're biological , we

51:36

really couldn't do a VC fund

51:38

. The traditional fund structure just

51:41

didn't work for us . It didn't work for us for a number of reasons

51:43

. One we didn't think we were going to get

51:45

any sorts of like unicorns

51:47

that we're going to somehow save the whole portfolio . We

51:52

also didn't think that we could exit within 10 years

51:54

with everything and we didn't even with

51:56

the things we wanted to and felt like

51:58

they could grow or move or

52:00

exit from our fund faster than

52:02

10 years . We didn't want to be under time

52:04

pressure . So what I love with

52:07

Terra regenerative capital and I'm so lucky

52:09

to be working with Tara Smith , who

52:11

is my co founder and whose

52:13

family is our anchor investor in the

52:15

fund is that we

52:17

have structured the vehicle of the fund itself

52:20

, which is a public benefit LLC

52:22

, to be supportive

52:24

of the nature of the things that we're

52:26

trying to cultivate . So this allows

52:28

us to manage , not for the

52:31

speed of exit or

52:33

a high , high risk

52:35

, high reward sort of exit scenario that

52:37

VC is traditionally known for

52:39

, but to manage for the nature

52:41

of the asset itself and the maturation

52:43

of that and the

52:45

evolution of that , such

52:48

that we think that those companies

52:50

that we're investing in and we invest in companies

52:53

that are in the middle of the supply chain , so

52:55

folks who do aggregation

52:57

, processing , manufacturing and distribution

52:59

that help connect farmers who are growing

53:02

regeneratively into

53:04

value add markets or into markets

53:06

that they wouldn't be able to get to on their own , we

53:09

think that that is both an important

53:11

piece of connecting in

53:13

this existing system of economics

53:15

to supporting the change

53:18

in agricultural production and incentivizing

53:20

that through market access . So really utilizing

53:22

that , you know , economic

53:24

incentive , while also creating it , creating

53:27

a vehicle structure and managing

53:30

, you

53:32

know , being really honest about our expectations . And I

53:34

think what's interesting is that we're seeing

53:37

that a lot of what we're doing we

53:40

feel like is lower risk , but maybe not

53:42

as high reward as as

53:44

what a VC would expect , but maybe

53:46

we can get a market rate return . And

53:49

then I think is fair . It's like slowing

53:51

it down a little bit . It's like saying , okay

53:53

, money , you're used to moving really fast . What

53:57

if you just slowed down a little bit ? What

54:00

if you just took a little bit less of a gamble

54:02

and maybe a little bit less of a reward

54:05

. Would that be okay ? You

54:07

know , would , dear money managers

54:09

, would you be okay with that ? And and if so , then you know

54:12

. Here are all of the other benefits World

54:16

job creation , carbon sequestration

54:19

, you know . Resilience to high

54:21

heat or water events , you

54:23

know all these other benefits , wealth development

54:25

, ownership of assets . We

54:27

hope to structure a lot of our exits

54:29

to return to employee and community

54:32

ownership because we believe

54:34

that the value of these businesses is

54:36

much greater for the communities than it would

54:38

be for a traditional private equity firm

54:40

. Just from like a balance

54:42

, a checkbook standpoint . Like private equity , the

54:44

private equity firm is not going to get a lot out of a small

54:46

batch of Midwestern processors

54:48

, but all the communities in which those processors

54:51

exist are going to be able to build

54:53

their livelihoods with those processors

54:56

existing in them . So you know

54:58

, the the non monetary value

55:00

and the economic impact value

55:02

is so much greater for

55:05

the employees and farmers

55:07

and communities that these businesses exist

55:09

within . That that's part of also

55:11

our structure is from the beginning to the end . So

55:16

how are there ways that we can get started on now such that

55:18

this community or these

55:20

communities have the opportunity

55:22

to buy us out and to

55:24

have us exit out of this in

55:26

a way that we are able to return

55:29

money to our investors

55:31

but also ultimately return the assets

55:34

and their value to the communities from

55:37

which they source products .

55:39

Thanks for sharing all that and , yeah

55:41

, the highlighting this piece around . Well

55:44

, it's very experimental . And and

55:46

designing the vehicle

55:48

with these honest expectations

55:50

. And through this journey , I

55:52

imagine you're bumping up against all different types

55:54

of personalities and mindsets , on

55:57

the spectrum of degenerative to regenerative

55:59

, if we can use that language . What

56:02

do you find is effective so

56:04

far in maybe getting those

56:06

who are earlier in the journey

56:08

to start buying in and

56:10

understanding this approach

56:12

and seeing value in it ?

56:14

You know I'm . I'll

56:16

just be honest and say terrarium

56:18

of capital is mostly

56:22

for people who have been in the space for a long

56:24

time and they understand the very strategic

56:27

value that this particular

56:29

venture and asset classes bring

56:32

to the space . And it's

56:35

like

56:37

I'm not going after somebody who's going

56:41

to be investing in an ag tech

56:43

solution that may help reduce , you know , glyphosate application , which is great . I

56:48

have nothing against that . We , you know , we

56:50

want our farmers to start using those things

56:52

. But terrarium of capital is not

56:54

for that group of people . It's for

56:56

people and investors , family

56:59

offices , foundations , individuals

57:02

who have been in this space for a long time and

57:05

recognize that it's providing a very strategic

57:07

value . That takes a ton

57:10

of time to do

57:12

well and takes a deep level

57:14

of connection to the value

57:19

that we believe we're providing is a

57:21

level of thought

57:24

and thoughtfulness and then

57:26

connection within that

57:28

broader system to

57:30

really deliver what we believe

57:33

are going to be systemic

57:35

changes and and strong

57:37

financials . I think we're aiming for between 6

57:40

and 12% on return

57:43

. And , you

57:45

know , I think we are going to see the birth

57:47

of a new agricultural

57:49

system in the United States , either

57:51

outside of the federally supported commodity

57:54

system or maybe we'll get that system to gradually

57:56

turn and support the alternative

57:58

system as well . But

58:01

terrarium is not for the beginner

58:03

. I think I do a lot of other work . I

58:05

have a little podcast called rain and shine . It's

58:07

five minutes . It's about nature

58:10

and science . It's a really nice way for someone

58:12

who doesn't know a lot about science or regeneration

58:14

to just kind of connect in

58:16

. I think you know , continuing to work and

58:19

support ground films like Kiss

58:21

the ground and common ground and

58:24

all these other amazing , you

58:26

know , pieces of communication and education

58:29

systems that help people off off

58:31

ramp is really wonderful

58:34

. But terrarium was created for those who

58:36

are deep within the movement and are ready to take

58:38

the next step towards actually creating structural

58:40

change .

58:42

Got it and I suppose , apart

58:44

from tuning into your little

58:46

podcast this

58:48

is a question I ask all my guests and curious here

58:51

, answer If you could do one thing tomorrow

58:53

to help decision makers or these

58:55

other investors perhaps you're earlier on the

58:57

journey and develop

58:59

our job mindset . What would it be ?

59:05

Two things . The first thing I would

59:07

do is I would really be like . So

59:09

you know that fewer than 4%

59:11

of venture backed equity

59:14

funded companies achieve assets within

59:16

eight to 10 years . You're

59:18

aware of this , do you understand ? I just put

59:20

some data in front of people . The

59:22

system that we currently are banking

59:25

on to support innovation is

59:27

just A it's not going to work for

59:29

agriculture . And B is it even really

59:32

? Because the emperor actually have close

59:34

and 80% of all venture funded

59:36

companies fail within five years . I think

59:38

there's a lot of just like

59:41

. Let's be sober and look

59:43

at the reality of these systems

59:45

and their capacity to create

59:47

the changes we have agreed

59:49

that we want to create . That

59:52

, I think , is just like a little bit of like a

59:54

. Let's be honest about what's

59:56

going on and just stop and take

59:58

a minute . And the second thing

1:00:00

is and I would do this

1:00:02

for everybody , in whatever position they're

1:00:04

in is just like teach

1:00:07

them to compost . If people can compost

1:00:09

with their communities , they can compost

1:00:12

at the school they're at , if there's

1:00:14

composting at work , if there's

1:00:16

composting on a farm , if their

1:00:18

restaurant talks about their food scraps being

1:00:20

taken away to be composted and grown

1:00:22

to the food , I have seen

1:00:25

people shift their mindset more

1:00:27

towards regenerative when they understand

1:00:30

and participate in composting than

1:00:32

I have in any other thing . I mean

1:00:34

, I think if you are both

1:00:36

blessed and cursed with a trauma

1:00:39

that you have to recover from , there's

1:00:41

an opening and an opportunity to learn a regenerative

1:00:43

mindset , as we've talked a lot about on this show

1:00:46

. But I think that in general

1:00:48

, I have never

1:00:51

met a person A who didn't like

1:00:53

composting . I mean , maybe people are like , oh

1:00:55

, that's stinky , but maybe

1:00:58

they just had bad compost , but

1:01:01

I've never met somebody conservative

1:01:03

, wealthy , poor , liberal

1:01:07

, not from the United States . Everybody

1:01:09

thinks composting is great and when they take

1:01:11

the time to really think about it and learn about

1:01:13

it , their shift towards understanding

1:01:16

that we don't live in a scare system

1:01:19

, that there is abundance , that

1:01:21

if they help life like if

1:01:23

not , if they buy something , not if there's

1:01:25

a new technology but if they just help

1:01:28

life do its job great

1:01:30

things happen . So

1:01:32

the thing I always come back to at the end

1:01:34

of the day is I just wish that

1:01:36

everybody , for everybody , has

1:01:38

an opportunity to learn how to

1:01:40

compost and to participate in composting

1:01:42

in some way , because I

1:01:45

have seen so much incredible joy

1:01:47

and learning and development

1:01:50

of human community come

1:01:52

from that than I have from probably

1:01:55

any other not probably definitely

1:01:57

than any other single environmental

1:02:00

thing . And you don't have to live

1:02:02

in nature outside of town . You

1:02:04

can live in a city . Korea

1:02:07

has the best , south Korea is some of the best composting in

1:02:10

urban cities in the world . New

1:02:12

York has composting . Los Angeles

1:02:14

has community composting . I mean there

1:02:17

are opportunities for that particular

1:02:20

activity to exist everywhere and my

1:02:22

hope is that everybody everywhere

1:02:24

gets a chance to participate in that because

1:02:27

it opens

1:02:29

. I've seen it open people's minds and hearts

1:02:31

so many times , again and again .

1:02:35

It's a way for , yeah , all of us , no excuses

1:02:38

I love that line Understand

1:02:41

how to let life do its job and also

1:02:43

build community , which is part of contributing

1:02:45

to life , and get the facts

1:02:47

on the table , which is also so needed

1:02:49

, and no false comparisons

1:02:51

anymore . So I

1:02:54

think that's a perfect point to wrap

1:02:56

up our conversation . Thank you

1:02:58

so much , kaila . It's

1:03:00

been such a joy . We could go on for hours

1:03:02

and hours , but I'm looking at the clock and going . Listeners

1:03:05

will need to move on at some point , so maybe

1:03:07

there'll be future episodes .

1:03:09

Well , it's a pleasure talking to you really

1:03:11

on a personal level and I would

1:03:13

love to learn more about your journey

1:03:15

and thank you for sharing it with

1:03:18

me today , but also thank you for sharing it

1:03:20

via this show

1:03:22

and with the broader world

1:03:24

, and I hope that it gives people

1:03:26

the bravery

1:03:29

and the hope and the courage to

1:03:31

step off into their own journey , whatever that

1:03:33

may be .

1:03:36

Likewise Thank you , and for listeners , that

1:03:38

was not planned . I didn't even know Kaila

1:03:40

was his background with the injuries

1:03:43

and things , but that's what was meant to come through

1:03:45

, so I'm sure it's serving

1:03:48

at least some listeners , if not many

1:03:50

. So thank you .

1:03:52

Anyone who's ever burnt out or anyone

1:03:54

who's ever had a traumatic head injury or a big

1:03:56

injury like if we are supportive

1:03:59

, if we support each other , if we have families

1:04:01

chosen or biological

1:04:04

that can support us , we can

1:04:06

heal , and that healing is

1:04:08

the regeneration , and I really believe that

1:04:10

that healing and regeneration is our

1:04:12

evolution .

1:04:15

Absolutely , thank you

1:04:18

.

1:04:37

Thank you . Thank

1:04:40

you so much for listening all the way to the end

1:04:42

. For the show notes and links we discussed

1:04:45

in this episode , check out our website Investing

1:04:48

in RegenderWagerculturecom . Forward slash

1:04:50

posts . If you liked this episode

1:04:52

, why not share it with a friend or give us a rating

1:04:54

on Apple Podcasts ? That really helps . Thanks

1:04:57

again and see you next time .