0:04

Is that even legal ? It's a question

0:06

we ask ourselves on a daily basis

0:08

. We ask it about our neighbors , we

0:11

ask it about our elected officials , we ask it

0:13

about our family and sometimes we

0:15

ask it to ourselves . The law is

0:17

complex and it impacts

0:19

everyone all the time , and

0:21

that's where we are here . I'm attorney Bob

0:23

Sewell , and this is season five of

0:25

the Worldwide Podcast that explores that

0:28

one burning question . Is that

0:30

even legal ? Let's go

0:36

. We're welcoming back today Ike Devji

0:38

. Ike is a preeminent asset

0:40

protection attorney . He's known all

0:42

throughout the United States for what

0:44

he does , which is asset protection . He

0:48

helps his clients manage well

0:50

over a billion dollars worth of assets . Ike

0:53

, welcome to the show , thank you Good to

0:55

be with you , so

0:58

I wanted to have you on , because there's a story

1:00

in my hometown , gilbert , arizona

1:03

. It's got some national attention

1:05

but it's also been flaming hot

1:07

here in the valley . They

1:09

call it the Gilbert Goons and

1:13

what's interesting is just

1:15

a brief history . Is the Gilbert Goons mostly

1:18

affluent , mostly

1:20

white , mostly

1:22

some sort of religious affiliation

1:24

, and they

1:27

are , they were , are were going

1:29

out and randomly

1:31

targeting kids

1:34

in a gang style if not a gang

1:36

beating them up and

1:38

then afterwards threatening them

1:41

if they were exposed and

1:44

and threatening more retaliation

1:46

if they have

1:49

any sort of repercussions

1:51

against them . It was

1:53

really ugly and it culminated

1:55

when some of

1:57

these kids decided to go out

1:59

to a party in a neighboring town and

2:02

they beat a kid up so bad that

2:04

three days or two days later he

2:07

died , he succumbed it . Absolutely

2:10

tragic results

2:12

. And

2:14

now you know and it appears that you

2:16

know that a lot of people knew they

2:19

, they gave themselves the moniker Gilbert

2:21

Goons and and

2:23

they were active on social media . They

2:26

posted things on social media . I mean how

2:28

they weren't arrested in advance , I don't know . But

2:31

what's amazing to me now

2:34

is the repercussions

2:36

to the parents . Now

2:39

their parents are incurring

2:41

real consequences

2:43

for their children's action . Is that

2:46

even legal ?

2:48

Absolutely , absolutely . And look , parental

2:50

liability is nothing new . And so

2:52

let's have this discussion about parental

2:54

liability in the context of the

2:57

Gilbert Goons right , and

2:59

it could easily be the Scottsdale Stranglers

3:01

or the Phoenix felons or anything else . So there's nothing

3:03

particular about Gilbert

3:05

as a community that I think

3:08

is is unique and created

3:10

these kids and their gang and their problems

3:12

and the heinous acts they did and the tragedy

3:14

of the death of Preston Lord

3:16

that resulted from that allegedly . But

3:20

every year I put out a warning

3:23

that's nearly identical and I put

3:25

it out just before spring break , and

3:27

what we talk about there is the idea of

3:29

parental liability in the

3:31

context of the hundred deadliest days

3:33

of the year , the time between Memorial

3:35

Day and Labor Day , where we see the

3:37

highest number of fatalities

3:40

, injuries , accidents , things like that

3:42

. Because kids are out for the summer , they're on spring

3:44

break , they're on summer vacation , and

3:46

this is grade school children , high school children

3:49

and even college-aged children who

3:51

might be adult-aged are coming

3:53

home , they're using their parents' homes

3:55

, cars , boats , cabins

3:57

, atvs , right , and so

3:59

all of that activity their

4:02

partying , their driving more , their spending

4:04

more time on supervised creates

4:06

very significant liability for

4:08

their parents . But parental liability

4:11

goes way beyond car accidents , which

4:13

is the number one thing that most people , especially the parents

4:15

of teenagers , are worried about , and

4:17

rightly . They should be right , because

4:19

anybody who has a teenage child in their home and doesn't

4:22

have a $2 million umbrella on their car whether

4:24

you make a hundred grand a year or $2

4:26

million a year or something more than that you're

4:28

insane . I mean , that is the most basic thing

4:31

that you would do to protect yourself . But

4:33

we have seen parents become liable

4:35

for their actions , of their children

4:38

, for many different things . We've

4:40

seen it for bullying , cyberbullying , assault

4:43

, theft , vandalism

4:45

, sexual

4:47

assault , breaking

4:49

and entering , throwing parties in

4:51

a vacant home in a gated community

4:54

in North Scottsdale and doing six figures in

4:56

damage to the home when you have 200

4:58

kids come in and have a party . So

5:01

this liability takes many different

5:03

forms and this is just

5:05

an echo of that . And what have we seen here

5:07

in Arizona with the Gilbert Goons ? Well

5:09

, we've seen I saw one

5:11

report that said that one of the parents

5:14

has lost their business and had their franchise

5:16

pulled because of the negative association

5:19

with this whole event and

5:21

these children . We've seen I'm

5:23

aware of at least two people who have been laid

5:26

off , if not terminated , for their employment

5:28

because of their association with this

5:30

. And now my understanding

5:32

is that there are at least two attorneys in town

5:35

that are filing multiple lawsuits against

5:37

the parents of these children for damages

5:40

for whatever they have done

5:42

, and those claims obviously will be different

5:45

depending on what exactly each child is accused

5:47

of or there's proof of them doing . And

5:50

then at the top of that , add the legal fees

5:52

yeah , whether

5:55

I think it is natural for

5:57

every parent to want to protect their child

5:59

, even if their child has done something

6:01

bad , and a

6:03

lot of these people are going to be digging deep

6:05

into their savings into their retirement

6:08

funds into their home equity . And

6:11

spending six figures on legal fees to

6:14

try and minimize the

6:16

penalty that these children are going to face , and

6:18

in some cases , these parents are going to be spending

6:21

on six figures and defending themselves against

6:23

the lawsuits that are coming .

6:25

Now , there's no better fee than a

6:27

legal fee . Okay , so

6:30

we don't want to disparage the legal fees . No

6:33

, I'm kidding , but

6:39

it is . I mean part of me , the

6:42

vindictive part of me , says

6:44

, well , these parents got

6:46

what's coming to them . And then the

6:48

other part of me says , well , I

6:50

don't know , I wasn't

6:53

in that house and I didn't have

6:55

their life experience . But

6:59

then the other part of me says I

7:02

really could be held liable for

7:05

what my kid does . I mean really

7:07

.

7:08

Yeah , look , I look there's . I absolutely

7:10

understand what you're saying on both sides of that

7:12

, right . On the one hand , we

7:14

want to make sure that this never happens again . Right

7:16

, that there are a group of teenage , you

7:18

know , young adult , mostly males , that

7:21

go out and terrorize a community

7:23

and beat up other children

7:25

and kill a child and do

7:28

property crimes . That obviously not acceptable

7:30

. And the parents

7:32

involved there's

7:34

their layers , right . Their

7:36

degrees of some of them had no idea

7:39

their children were doing this . Some

7:41

of them maybe had a little

7:43

bit of an idea and thought

7:45

it was harmless . Some

7:47

of them were fully aware of it and ignored it . Some

7:50

of them are aggressively defending the

7:52

actions of these kids that are indefensible , right

7:54

, right , so we range

7:57

from clueless to complicit . Yeah

7:59

, and are all of those people equally

8:01

liable ? Should they be equally liable

8:04

? I don't know , that's the decision for the courts to make

8:06

, but my job as an asset

8:08

protection attorney is to look at anybody

8:11

who comes into my office and say , oh , you've

8:14

got 14-aged kids in your house . Are

8:16

they ? Do you have proper insurance in place

8:19

, right ? And to help them

8:21

manage that risk , whether

8:23

it's an accident or whether it's something

8:25

more intentional

8:28

like we're talking about in this context

8:30

.

8:33

And I yeah , I should have thought of it that way before I even

8:35

posed the question . Because whether

8:38

or not they should be liable doesn't

8:41

matter . Whether or not , because

8:43

if , from your perspective , we

8:45

all know what's going to happen If

8:48

attorneys , where there's an injury

8:50

, attorneys find a remedy , and

8:52

the remedy is with the person who has the money

8:55

, and

8:57

hence we need asset protection

9:00

.

9:00

Absolutely , and I have a list of risk factors

9:02

that I walk my clients through and it's not a complete

9:04

list but it kind of boiled down to hey , here

9:07

are 12 or 13 of the most common things that

9:09

I see , and one of those

9:11

is do you have children ? That's

9:13

one of my risk factor list , and are those

9:15

children using your homes , using

9:17

your cars ? Do they drive

9:19

? We look at all of those details as part

9:22

of this , and one

9:24

of the other questions is

9:26

are you a target

9:28

? Because you are collectible ? There

9:31

are two kinds of people that lawyers don't sue people

9:34

who don't have any money or

9:36

people who have money they can't reach . I

9:39

think we would all prefer to be in that second

9:42

category and

9:46

if it was my child that was injured , I

9:49

would aggressively want to punish the people

9:51

who were responsible

9:54

.

9:54

Oh heck yeah .

9:55

There's no doubt the moral outrage that these parents

9:57

and these communities feel is totally

9:59

justified . I also

10:01

can put myself because I guess of

10:03

what I do for a living in the shoes of the innocent

10:06

parent who has worked their whole

10:08

life to build

10:10

a business , provide for their

10:12

children . Do all the things that we , that

10:15

you and I hear parents say , oh , I built

10:17

this business because I want my kids to have what

10:19

I never had , or I want , you know , I want to make

10:21

sure my family's provided for right and

10:23

should that person lose everything

10:25

because of something they didn't do

10:27

and weren't aware of ? And

10:30

how do we make sure that that doesn't happen

10:32

? Right , which is what ? Which is what's my job

10:34

? And so when I look at these things , you

10:36

know , we've warned people that sometimes

10:39

, especially with affluent people and

10:42

this , this community , is considered-

10:44

.

10:45

So it has a lot of affluent people .

10:46

Considered to be an affluent community . It's

10:49

at minimum . I think it's described as an upper

10:51

, middle class , upper class community , whatever

10:53

that means , and sometimes

10:56

people are wearing the emperor's new clothes

10:58

and they assume that because we

11:00

live in a certain zip code or we

11:02

have a certain income or we go to a

11:04

certain church or whatever

11:07

. The factors are not

11:09

my kid . My kid would never do this

11:11

. Our children aren't involved in this

11:13

. We don't have these problems . And

11:15

as someone who works primarily , almost

11:17

exclusively , with high net worth individuals , I

11:20

will tell you that those kids get in trouble as

11:22

much , if not more , than , anybody else's kids

11:24

, and in some cases it's simply because

11:26

they have access to things

11:28

that allow them to do harm . Cars

11:30

, homes , boats , atvs

11:33

, money , yep right

11:35

, those things can

11:38

all facilitate behavior

11:40

that leads to problems

11:43

. You know , and we talked to you . So somebody asked me recently

11:45

. I said well , what do you do ? How

11:47

do you protect yourself from

11:49

being the next Gilbert Goon's parents

11:51

? And I said well , the first layer of that protection

11:54

is something that Bob and I , or any other

11:56

attorney and I , can't teach you . That's

11:58

good parenting , it's management , it's leadership

12:00

, it's being involved in your children's

12:03

life , it's being aware of what they're doing , it's

12:05

monitoring their social media usage

12:07

, it's setting rules for

12:09

the use of your car , your home , your boat

12:12

, your cabin , your property and enforcing

12:14

those rules . Because sometimes , when a parent

12:16

will come to me and say we had this liability

12:19

or that , and I'll say , well , what have you do ? Or

12:21

how did you punish that child ? Or

12:24

what have you done to limit their ability

12:26

to do this again ? And the thing I sometimes

12:28

hear is he just won't listen

12:31

. Yeah , yeah , right

12:33

now , there is nothing I can do about

12:35

that as an attorney . So the first

12:37

layer of protection is always the

12:40

family , the parents being involved , keeping

12:42

an eye on things and forcing rules . The

12:44

next layer of protection that we want

12:46

every parent to have in place is

12:48

a very high limit of insurance

12:51

. Have that umbrella policy on your

12:53

home and your cars . Have the best umbrella

12:55

policy available . That

12:57

is not the cheapest one that you went

12:59

online and found , but the one that covers

13:01

the most things , including perhaps

13:04

some of the actions of your children , things like bullying

13:06

, cyberbullying , some of these other things . There

13:08

are umbrella policies that can cover some

13:10

of those . And then , finally , let's

13:13

have our assets organized from an estate

13:16

plan to an asset protection plan in

13:18

a way that makes those assets legally

13:20

distinct from any personal or professional

13:23

liability that we incur in the future . Let's

13:25

make sure that we're in a position where we

13:28

have locked in every level of success

13:30

and we have made that success

13:32

, whether it is in the form of an income stream

13:34

for a business or

13:39

the ownership of a piece of real estate or

13:41

money in the bank . Let's make sure that those

13:43

things are well compartmentalized

13:46

and out of the reach of

13:49

whatever may happen , this

13:51

risk or any other . And that's good

13:53

basic planning that we do as asset protection

13:55

attorneys . That is our primary

13:58

responsibility , because we never know where this

14:00

risk is coming from . Yeah , it

14:02

could be an employee lawsuit , it could be an investor

14:04

lawsuit , it could be a business deal gone bad

14:07

, it could be a construction

14:09

defect claim for a builder , it could be a medical

14:11

malpractice claim for a doctor

14:13

, or it could be one of your kids goes

14:15

out and does something stupid that you weren't aware

14:17

about and it cost you your savings and your retirement

14:19

.

14:20

Yeah , and the

14:22

thing that I've learned from you how

14:25

long were you known each other ? 10 years , it's gotta

14:27

be At least . Yeah . And the

14:29

thing I've learned from you is , when

14:31

it comes to asset protection , you

14:34

don't just get these things out of the cracker

14:36

jack , the cracker jack

14:38

cracker jack's box . You don't just

14:40

order it up on the internet . It involves

14:42

carefully looking at

14:46

your assets , at your potential risk

14:48

, with your attorney , then

14:51

organizing these things in a

14:53

very particular way for

14:55

you and you alone

14:57

, right . And then layering

15:00

it with insurance and whatever you else

15:02

you think you need to do , and then comparing

15:04

, you know , your risk to your level of

15:06

how much . You know how you

15:08

say , okay , I feel this level of

15:10

risk is it was okay for me , or I'm okay

15:13

losing this and or spending

15:15

this in taxes , or losing control

15:17

of this or not losing control of that , all

15:19

those factors is sort

15:21

of like a I envision

15:25

if I , if I wasn't you know the

15:27

type of guy that had to really strategize

15:30

about this that it would be

15:32

I'd come to you as my , my

15:34

true counselor , my mental health

15:37

therapist for my assets , right

15:40

, and that's what you do , right .

15:42

Yeah , I mean all of those factors that you mentioned

15:45

are part of the calculation , and

15:47

what is the right tool or how

15:49

much is enough , or what's good enough

15:51

for this person , right ? So

15:53

somebody who is retired

15:55

and has a significant amount of

15:57

wealth should have some asset protection planning

15:59

in place , because they're not refilling that

16:01

bank account anymore the same way that they

16:03

used to , right ? But their risk level

16:06

is certainly much lower than my

16:08

entrepreneur client who's actively running

16:10

for businesses , right ? Right ? So

16:13

those two people might have identical

16:15

net worths , but they need different planning . They

16:17

also have different needs in terms of access

16:20

. So one of the most effective forms

16:22

of asset protection that we could ever conceive

16:24

of is one of the simplest , which is let's say

16:26

, I have $5 million and I put

16:29

that $5 million in an irrevocable

16:31

trust for Bob . It

16:33

is forever out of my reach and

16:35

control . A third party trustee

16:37

controls that trust and if I

16:40

get sued for anything going forward , that

16:42

money that we put into that trust for Bob

16:44

before this bad thing happened is

16:47

unreachable . That works

16:49

, yeah , that works . The problem is

16:51

I no longer have my $5

16:53

million that maybe I needed , wanted

16:56

, needed to use it , that capital to generate

16:58

more income , maybe needed

17:00

to reinvest it . Maybe I'm not financially

17:03

at the point where I can make those

17:05

kind of large gifts and cut

17:07

that out of my use and control forever

17:09

right and even my wealthiest

17:11

clients , often mentally even

17:13

though financially they can do it

17:15

mentally aren't there yet they're not

17:17

ready to give up control and

17:20

just say that wait a minute . I spent 20 years

17:22

earning

17:24

and leveraging up to buy this office

17:26

building that I'm putting into this trust for

17:28

my kids and I can never

17:31

touch it or use it or get a dollar out of it again

17:33

or control anything that happens to it , and I have to put

17:35

that in the hands of a third party trustee . Some

17:38

people are ready for that . Some people are not right

17:40

. Some people need a greater degree of control

17:42

. Some people need to be able

17:44

to have investment funds that they

17:47

they get a call on a Monday about an

17:49

opportunity on a Tuesday and they need to be able

17:51

to write a check the same day . So

17:53

all of these factors , all

17:55

of these unique things , are

17:58

part of the calculation that goes into what's

18:00

the rights tool set for this person Right

18:03

? Right , Because there are many ways to achieve the same result

18:05

. From the

18:07

lawyer's desk , they're all kind of the same , but

18:10

from the other side of the table , with

18:13

the client , the person whose money it is , it's

18:15

very , very different , and is it ?

18:17

and then the other part of the counseling is

18:19

oh , you're a parent and

18:22

do you have boats , do you have

18:24

ATVs , do you have side by sides

18:26

and do you let your

18:29

kids do these things by themselves ? And

18:33

well , you're living a more risky

18:36

lifestyle , you know .

18:37

Absolutely . In fact , I have a questionnaire

18:39

that I use to help figure out

18:41

what a person's risk factor is when

18:44

I'm working with them as a client , what

18:46

their risk factors are . One of

18:48

them is children . And then , exactly as you said , how

18:51

many vehicles are in your home ? Who holds

18:53

title to those vehicles ? Is it you and your

18:55

spouse , or does

18:57

one of the kids drive a car that's

19:00

leased by your medical practice

19:02

because you're getting a tax write off ?

19:04

Yeah .

19:05

Right . So you're taking the most dangerous thing

19:07

that you do every day , which is pilot

19:09

your four or five thousand pound missile between

19:11

everybody else's on the one on one , and

19:14

you're linking it to the thing that provides

19:16

your family's income and is the most valuable

19:18

thing you own , right ? So we do

19:20

ask those questions and we ask what toys

19:22

do you have ? Boats , planes , rvs

19:25

, etc . Etc . We ask about do you have vacation

19:27

homes ? We

19:29

ask about how much insurance you have

19:31

in place and , like I said

19:33

, two million is the starting point , even

19:35

for regular , everyday working

19:38

folks , in my opinion , right now

19:40

, because , look , if you kill or injure somebody in

19:42

a car accident , a million

19:44

dollars isn't going to cover it anymore .

19:45

If they have a permanent injury or a death , and

19:48

just the property damage alone .

19:49

I mean , every new car on the road these days

19:51

is ridiculously expensive

19:54

. Yeah Right , you can go get a new

19:56

soccer mom Mabel , a

19:58

new Tahoe , and that's close to six

20:00

figures . Yeah Right

20:02

, so that million

20:04

dollars was a big number in the 1970s

20:08

, yeah , and it's a much smaller

20:10

number in 2024 . Yeah , and

20:12

so we look at all those factors , you

20:15

know , and , as I said , this is a tragic

20:17

case that has many different factors

20:19

, and some of these parents were fully aware

20:22

of it , I'm sure , and some of them were completely

20:24

unaware that their children not only was

20:26

their child doing something , but

20:28

was even capable of doing something

20:31

like that . Yeah , and that's the problem

20:33

that we have with parental liability

20:36

, and in Arizona we have statutes

20:38

that say a couple of interesting things . Number one

20:40

it says that parents are liable

20:42

for the actions of their children

20:45

if you have custody of your child

20:47

. And the second

20:49

thing it says is nothing

20:51

in this statute shall require

20:53

an insurer or shall prevent

20:56

an insurer from excluding

20:58

intentional acts of their children . So

21:02

you might have that insurance

21:04

in place and if your child

21:06

intentionally assaulted , somebody drove

21:09

a car into them , participated

21:11

in street racing and the street takeovers

21:14

that we see on the news and you see them on Tik

21:16

Tok , where the kids pull into an intersection

21:18

. All of a sudden there's 300 people standing there and they're doing

21:20

donuts and somebody gets run over invariably

21:23

. Yeah , they can . Your

21:25

insurance coverage could

21:27

potentially exclude something

21:29

like that , which puts that bill right on you

21:31

and your house and your savings and everything

21:33

else that you've ever worked for . So

21:36

these are issues that , like I

21:38

said , can be wide ranging and

21:40

in most cases it is an accident

21:42

. It is not

21:45

very common that I , at least , have had to

21:47

deal with intentional acts . Like

21:49

I said , we've had those bullying acts , those

21:51

bullying claims and cyber bullying and

21:53

fights and assaults and theft

21:55

and vandalism , all

21:58

of those things , but the

22:00

biggest and

22:03

most regularly

22:07

recurring exposures are

22:09

accident based .

22:10

Yeah , If I'm a parent , I'm

22:13

looking , hearing this conversation and

22:15

I say you know , I

22:18

need to do some massive protection . I have a business

22:20

, I have more multiple businesses

22:23

. How am I going to get ahold of you ?

22:26

The best way to find me is probably just through my

22:28

website , which is wwwproassetprotectioncom

22:33

. P-r-o . Asset protection

22:35

we have

22:38

. You'll be able to find all my contact

22:40

information there . You'll also be able to find

22:42

a bunch of easily accessible information

22:45

on all of these topics I've written . I've

22:48

been doing asset protection planning for 20 years

22:50

as you said I protect , help

22:52

protect well over $7 billion in assets

22:54

for clients all over the country . So what

22:57

I've tried to do is give those I work with

22:59

perfect 2020 hindsight , where

23:01

I've every time something bad happens

23:04

that we , that

23:06

is a risk that we can manage or risk

23:08

to be aware of , I

23:10

write about it . I say , hey , this thing happens

23:12

and it happens repeatedly , and

23:14

so all of that information is there as well at

23:17

proassetprotectioncom .

23:19

Our best to the families of the who

23:22

were victims of the Gilbert Goons

23:24

and uh Ike

23:26

. Thanks for coming on the show , but

23:55

if you need some legal advice , get some . There's

23:58

some great lawyers out there and we

24:00

are always ready to help . See

24:02

you next time .