0:02

Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce

0:05

and you're listening to It's Been a

0:07

Minute from NPR, a show about what's

0:09

going on in culture and why it

0:11

doesn't happen by accident. Charlemagne

0:22

the God knows how to get

0:24

people talking and keep them

0:26

listening. Now for those who

0:28

don't know this man, you and I live

0:31

very different lives. But to catch you up,

0:33

Charlemagne is the ringleader of Power

0:36

105 One's The Breakfast Club. The

0:43

Breakfast Club is the most listened to

0:46

hip-hop morning radio show in America. And

0:49

it's where Charlemagne has built something

0:51

of a shock-jock reputation. Whether he's

0:53

cracking on Kevin Hart's infidelity to

0:55

his face. What was you thinking

0:57

earlier this year when you got caught cheating in Vegas?

0:59

Hey, brother, listen. Is it irresponsible? Or

1:01

fielding calls from Megan Thee Stallion during her

1:04

ongoing beef with Nicki Minaj. Now, I

1:06

haven't heard the record yet. Are you saying names?

1:09

I'm saying a hit dog on

1:11

holla. That's it. And now,

1:13

two decades into his broadcasting career,

1:15

he's become an unlikely, at least

1:17

to me, leading

1:19

voice in politics. For

1:22

the last few years, The Breakfast Club has

1:24

become a crucial stop for Democratic hopefuls, with

1:27

visits from the likes of Elizabeth Warren

1:29

and Vice President Kamala Harris. Have you

1:31

ever smoked? I have. Okay.

1:34

And I inhaled. I didn't inhale.

1:37

Charlemagne's tell-it-like-it-is interview style has been

1:39

the launching pad for several viral

1:41

moments that, for better or worse,

1:43

provided the politicians he interviewed with

1:45

a chance to connect directly to

1:47

millennial and Gen Z Black Americans.

1:50

And for the 2024 election, Charlemagne's going

1:52

all in. Last

1:54

month, it was announced that he's co-founded

1:57

a new political podcasting network, Reason Choice

1:59

News. media in partnership with

2:01

the I Heart podcast network. And

2:04

this decision to double down in the

2:06

political media space has left some scratching

2:08

their heads. How has

2:10

the man who wrote a

2:12

book called black privilege become

2:14

a political authority and

2:17

what does his popularity in that space

2:19

indicate about the concerns of black voters?

2:21

Unpack all that. I sat down with

2:24

democratic pollster Terrence Woodbury and

2:26

national correspondent for Politico, Braxton

2:28

Booker, who recently profiled Charlemagne.

2:34

Braxton Terrence. Welcome to

2:36

it's been a minute. Great to be

2:38

here. Thanks for having me, Brittany. Oh,

2:40

my pleasure. My pleasure. To start

2:42

off, Braxton, you see 2020 as

2:44

the critical period when Charlemagne became

2:47

a political figure. What was going

2:49

on with Charlemagne in 2020? Folks,

2:51

at least on the democratic side, were really,

2:53

really excited about who is going to be

2:56

that voice, that figure who's going to try to

2:58

take on Trump one on one. And

3:00

a lot of the candidates, you remember

3:02

there were five or six candidates

3:05

that could have real viability in

3:07

the primary, and they were all

3:09

kind of competing for like a

3:11

sliver of votes. And

3:13

some of the candidates started to

3:15

realize like, look, well, we need to make

3:17

inroads with black voters. They are critical part

3:19

of the democratic base. And one

3:22

of the places that they landed was

3:25

on the breakfast club. And at the

3:27

time, Charlemagne was kind of going through

3:29

this transition of sorts. Right. He was

3:31

trying to move away from the

3:34

shock jock appeal that he had

3:36

built up for himself in the early days of the

3:39

breakfast club and going back to the 2016

3:42

primary cycle, he had both Bernie

3:44

Sanders and Hillary Clinton on his

3:47

show. And the Democratic candidates said

3:49

like, look, this is a place where we can,

3:51

we can have deep discussions, we can have long

3:53

form discussions. And if you play it right, those

3:56

moments will go viral and give

3:59

basically free. advertising it for your campaigns.

4:01

And that's how you saw Charlamagne

4:03

learn that pretty big interview

4:05

and Biden ended up having the

4:08

flitting mouth quote that basically is

4:10

still kind of hanging over his

4:12

presidency now. I tell you, if

4:14

you have a problem figuring out

4:16

whether you're for Mayor Trump and

4:19

you ain't black, it don't have nothing to do with

4:21

it. If you don't vote for Joe Biden. You ain't

4:23

black. I mean, are you even black? I

4:27

mean, so now you know that that's 2020 and you laid

4:29

that out. Brechtin, how has

4:31

Charlamagne's relationship evolved with the Democrats

4:34

since then? Well, look, I mean, he

4:36

had good relationships with both the

4:39

president and especially with vice president

4:41

Kamala Harris early on. Now,

4:43

fast forward to present

4:45

day. That relationship is

4:48

not as cordial as it

4:50

once was because of a

4:52

lot of Charlamagne's takes and

4:54

a lot of Charlamagne's views on

4:57

how the Biden Harris administration has

4:59

delivered for black Americans. It's not

5:01

that I regret endorsing Joe

5:03

Biden. It's just that, you know, I think

5:05

that we all can get burned, you know,

5:08

by politicians, but he also feels like the

5:11

vice president has essentially abandoned reaching out

5:13

to him for his platform and also

5:15

to connect with black voters. Yes.

5:17

Charlamagne has been really loud in his critiques

5:20

of the Biden administration. He goes to my

5:22

hometown Charleston, South Carolina, and he goes to

5:24

the black church and then he goes to

5:26

a soul food spot. They've been doing that

5:28

same for years. And it's been interesting

5:31

to watch those criticisms get

5:33

picked up by conservative media

5:35

and you know, the reason why we're talking about him

5:37

today is that he has grown to be

5:39

incredibly influential in this space in a way

5:41

that I don't think anybody predicted. I

5:44

certainly did not, but I wonder

5:46

if Charlamagne is just reflecting his

5:48

audience from your perspective as a

5:50

pollster Terence, what do we know about his audience?

5:53

When I look at the demographics

5:55

of Charlamagne audience, who are largely

5:57

people of color, majority black, specifically.

5:59

the age of 50, that

6:01

these are folks that are

6:03

often not engaging

6:06

in politics every day. And

6:08

so in the vacuum of information, and these are

6:10

the folks that tell me in focus groups every

6:12

day, they don't know anything that the

6:14

White House is doing for them, not just this White

6:16

House. They don't know anything that any White House

6:18

has done for them. A young man said to me in

6:20

a focus group recently, my hood didn't get

6:23

any better under Obama. It didn't get any worse under

6:25

Trump. So what does Biden got to do with me?

6:28

When I think about Charlamagne's audience,

6:31

they are often rightfully cynical,

6:34

rightfully frustrated with the system. They're not

6:36

just cynical towards Democrats, they're cynical towards

6:38

Republicans, they're cynical towards the system, the

6:40

system that has not delivered for them

6:43

the way that they expected it to.

6:46

That also makes them the most

6:48

likely third party voters. When

6:50

I look at, one of the things

6:52

I think is missing in our political discourse right now is that

6:54

this is not a competition between

6:56

two people. There are more than

6:59

two people in this contest and voters will

7:01

have more than just two options. And

7:03

when I look back at 2016 and what

7:06

we were missing when Donald Trump was first elected,

7:09

it was in the unpopularity

7:11

of the two party candidates. And

7:13

so I think that Charlamagne has to accept

7:16

some responsibility, that his audience of young

7:18

people of color that are frustrated and

7:20

cynical, that they will begin to shop for

7:22

other options. Maybe that's what he wants,

7:24

but that is an outcome,

7:27

a result that he's going to have to also

7:30

be responsible for. Can I push back for

7:32

one second? Go ahead, go ahead. One second.

7:34

What he is trying to do is show

7:36

the audience that there are different

7:39

options there. But what he told me,

7:41

which was the phrase that

7:43

keeps getting repeated back to me when I

7:45

talk to people about this piece, is he

7:47

says that this election is

7:49

going to come down to the cowards,

7:51

the crooks, and the couch. And the cowards being

7:54

the Democrats, because they're too afraid to lean into

7:56

the message, the crooks, because they are the

7:58

Republicans and his work. because they are

8:01

they're trying to take away rights

8:03

from people and the couch and the

8:05

couch as Terrence alluded to is probably

8:07

the most dangerous of all options

8:10

because you're you're not exercising that vote

8:12

that you have and that in

8:15

theory will benefit the

8:17

Republican Party in this case. Interesting.

8:19

So I... You're not buying it. It sounds like

8:21

you're not buying. I'm split on this because as

8:24

we're discussing he does have a certain level of

8:26

power to access. Terrence you

8:28

brought up something with regard to Charlamagne

8:30

being one of the only figures in

8:32

hip-hop you know who's talking about electoral

8:35

politics right now and you shared some

8:37

really interesting thoughts in your pre-interview with

8:39

our producer Alexis about how hip-hop

8:42

media is positioned in politics.

8:44

Yes, yes look the role

8:46

that hip-hop plays in culture

8:49

and in discourse today and not just

8:51

black culture but in culture specifically young

8:54

culture it is indicative

8:56

to the role that the black church once

8:58

played in the black community this gathering

9:00

point this shared experience that

9:02

we all have together and

9:05

politicians have often used the platform

9:08

of the black church to

9:10

reach the broadest swath of the black

9:12

community and hip-hop is now playing

9:15

that role in many ways. I want

9:17

to give Charlamagne some credit here because

9:19

he has been for several political cycles

9:21

now the singular voice in

9:24

hip-hop culture that consistently

9:26

engages in political discourse not

9:28

just during elections but year-round

9:30

I do think that the

9:33

singularity of his voice being the

9:35

only one in hip-hop culture

9:37

that is constantly engaging the

9:39

body politic that is what has given him

9:41

so much resonance with his audience

9:44

and so much prominence with politicians that

9:46

are trying to reach that audience. Brechtin

9:48

I'd love to hear your thoughts on

9:50

that. Yeah look I think those points

9:52

are very salient we saw that certainly

9:54

over this past weekend Biden was going

9:56

to black churches and when you look

9:59

closely at the... audiences, we're seeing

10:01

generational divides here, right? They're

10:03

older. They're much, much older

10:06

than the 60s and 70s.

10:08

And that's a demographic that the Democratic Party has

10:10

on lock already. Has on lock. So

10:12

like, in the life of a military,

10:14

Biden is preaching to the quads. Precisely.

10:16

Those voters are already in lockstep with

10:18

him. But like, if he is not

10:20

going on a show like The Breakfast Club,

10:22

where is he going to get the 40

10:24

and younger vote, right? That's the black voters

10:26

who are kind of on the fence about

10:28

whether or not they want to show up.

10:31

So I think Harris is right.

10:33

But look, Charlamagne is playing a

10:35

pivotal role here. And the one

10:37

thing I want to add too,

10:39

is like, how mainstream hip hop

10:41

has become. Let's not

10:43

forget that Donald Trump has

10:46

been a hip hop figure and fixture

10:48

for decades now, right? Simply because of

10:50

his wealth. Because of his wealth, he

10:53

got name checks and many of hip

10:55

hop songs. And so this

10:57

is the image also that the

10:59

Biden administration is trying to fight

11:02

against is that Trump already has

11:04

name recognition. He has some some

11:06

cash and for the fact that

11:09

when he passed the first step

11:11

act, he's pardoning rappers, right? So

11:13

like, he already has this advantage

11:16

that Biden does not have. Pinterest, Terrence,

11:18

you work in polling and you know,

11:20

you've been in focus groups. And so

11:22

you actually have seen up close, you know, what

11:25

a lot of people are thinking and saying, I'd

11:27

love to hear sort of like what you've heard

11:29

in some of your focus groups. Like is

11:31

Charlamagne's cynicism of the Democrats

11:33

indicative of larger trends amongst

11:36

black voters? I think

11:39

Charlamagne is reflecting a

11:41

sentiment that we have seen growing amongst

11:43

black voters. What I've heard in focus

11:45

groups time and time again is that

11:48

the economy was better under Trump. I

11:50

was in focus groups in Florida right before the

11:52

2022 election. I had

11:54

eight black men and a focus group in South Florida. Seven

11:56

of them told me that they had more money when they

11:59

were in the US. Donald Trump was president. Seven

12:02

out of eight told me that their

12:04

lives were, not only did they have more money,

12:06

but their lives were better when Donald Trump was

12:08

president. Now half of those men

12:11

were very clear. I don't mean they're going to vote for him,

12:14

but this acknowledgement that there

12:16

were economic circumstances that the way

12:19

he was marketing the stimulus checks

12:21

and the investments in HBCUs.

12:23

Like I'll give you a very prime example.

12:26

When I asked black people in focus groups, what

12:28

has Joe Biden done for you? And they can't

12:30

name anything. Then I asked them what

12:32

has Donald Trump done for you? And they named the

12:34

First Step Act and they named

12:37

investing in HBCUs. Well

12:40

Joe Biden has given twice as much

12:42

to HBCUs as Donald Trump. Actually more.

12:44

But Joe Biden didn't have autumn HBCU

12:46

presidents in the Oval Office with Kellyanne

12:48

Conway. Right. With Kellyanne Conway, with

12:50

her feet up in the couch, taking off. I

12:54

always remind people of Kellyanne Conway on the couch because

12:56

we all saw it. But what we

12:58

were really looking at were 70 black HBCU presidents.

13:01

We have not. How many HBCU presidents have you

13:03

seen in the White House? Not

13:05

many. I consume this information every

13:07

day. I haven't seen one. He's

13:09

not telling the story to black people. And that is

13:12

where I think that commentators and

13:14

people that have platforms like Charlemagne

13:16

have an opportunity to connect the

13:18

dots for people. Regardless of how you

13:20

cut it, he has a lot of people listening to him. He has

13:22

a lot of eyes on him and he's taking it a

13:24

step further. Charlemagne is in

13:26

the process of building a politically

13:28

focused podcast network called Reason Choice

13:31

Media. And Brechtan, talk to me

13:33

about Reason Choice. Like, what do you think Charlemagne

13:36

might be trying to get out of it? And

13:38

how could you see it serving or

13:40

not serving its listeners? I think

13:42

it's first important to separate Charlemagne,

13:45

the host of The Breakfast Club,

13:47

and Charlemagne, the businessman. So

13:50

he is understanding that, look, The

13:52

way we consume our information about

13:55

politics, about news, about entertainment is

13:57

so segmented that he's going to...

14:00

Be able to play in a lot of these

14:02

places rights and he's able to. Monetize.

14:04

Lot of the stuff. That's what I

14:06

think. at the end

14:09

of the day as get to be

14:11

a real tell of the his reaches

14:13

whether nights he to diversify enough and

14:15

actually. Change folks minds?

14:17

Can he bring in some

14:19

conservatives or late independent voices

14:21

and convince them to leave

14:24

a different direction? steady? Be.

14:26

A big enough influence where

14:28

he's having these conversations that

14:31

actually impact the outcome of

14:33

local elections. A statewide elections

14:35

that is, as. Said. Something

14:37

that it is as eluded him so far.

14:39

Jose. Okay, so this is a thing

14:41

for there's no question, right? that charlemagne

14:43

he's got this power, he's here to

14:45

stay. That's

14:47

a good thing. I do think

14:50

there is a good thing, mainly

14:52

because I think. That.

14:54

There are a lot of disaffected public half

14:57

of America doesn't boat, and a lot of

14:59

people do not trust any of these monitors.

15:01

It's not even the ones that they like,

15:03

including Barack Obama. A don't trust him

15:05

either. When they say when he says if you

15:07

bought your student loans will give her Gibbons they

15:10

don't believe him either. Because.

15:12

He did not deliver on all of the things that

15:14

they were hoping for when he was president. And.

15:16

So to the extent that Charlemagne

15:18

has. Created. A new point

15:21

of entry for some folks and otherwise would not

15:23

be entering into the political discourse. I think that

15:25

is a good thing. At into

15:27

more people we activate into this

15:29

conversation the banner Bratton. Of

15:33

our inflict any any value on

15:35

attic I think it is what

15:37

it is rightly so if somebody

15:39

is a penetrating this ecosystem. So.

15:42

Many as a point has a role

15:44

to play out. This be the sole

15:46

voice for for a lot of people

15:48

but he certainly has a role in

15:50

an influence and our politics today. Not

15:52

what I expected to hear. this. Whacked.

15:55

In parents this has. Been a great

15:57

conversation. not have given me a

15:59

lot. think about, I have to say.

16:01

Thanks again to Terrence Woodbury and Breckton Booker.

16:08

Now I see the value in having

16:10

more entry points to civic engagement and

16:12

I'm all for it, but I

16:14

do wonder if Charlemagne isn't something

16:17

more or aims to be something more.

16:19

And as he expands his reach, I

16:21

want to know what's his next stepping

16:23

stone. And I wonder if

16:25

we should really be turning to a

16:28

shot-jock for political discourse. Coming

16:30

up, I know for some

16:33

people the Breakfast Club is a

16:35

show they turn to to tackle

16:37

topics like race and identity, but

16:39

if you ask me, the Sopranos,

16:41

yes, the HBO Mafia show, is

16:43

the most incisive narrative about the

16:45

dangers of conditional whiteness I've ever

16:47

seen. Don't believe me?

16:49

My next guest may convince you

16:52

to reconsider. And,

16:58

alright, I know I just did an

17:00

episode where we declared microtrends are over,

17:02

but I need you to stop what

17:05

you're doing. You're breaking news. Clean girl

17:07

is out, mob wife era is in,

17:09

okay? Clean girl

17:11

is out and mob wife is

17:13

in. Or, so

17:15

says TikTok. We're talking about

17:17

aesthetics here, a new style trend, and if

17:20

the name doesn't say it all, here's

17:22

what we're looking at. You'll need to start

17:24

with an outfit that's comprised of entirely black furmen.

17:26

If you can add some leather in there, even

17:29

better. And then top it off with a

17:31

huge faux fur coat. Maybe throw on

17:33

some thick black eyeliner, huge sunglasses, an

17:35

Italian designer bag, and lots of gold

17:37

jewelry. If you look like you're going

17:40

to a funeral, you know you're doing

17:42

it right. The mob wife look, just

17:44

like the clean girl aesthetic, traffics in

17:46

symbols of wealth, in this case ostentatious,

17:48

as a means to signal upward mobility.

17:51

With those red nails, blow your haters

17:53

a kiss and strut your stuff into

17:55

your Cadillac. So

17:57

Why is this happening now? Well

18:00

some say it's a sigh. Up and

18:02

Max is marketing department plans to the

18:04

on social media they of course deny.

18:07

That but a spews. The Sopranos

18:09

is celebrating his twenty fifth. Anniversary

18:11

right now. But I also think

18:13

it makes sense. In this moment. If

18:16

you look at the aesthetic, what it's

18:18

trying to accomplish that upward mobility, you

18:20

start to see how the mob y

18:22

sus isn't just about what's in, but

18:25

who is in. To

18:28

do that, lexis into the aesthetic source.

18:30

Material: The Sopranos, And

18:34

here's my. Take on the shelf which

18:36

I love. One through line is

18:38

that the show is all about

18:40

conditional whiteness. How what it needs

18:43

to be white always. Evolving

18:45

and ultimately whenever. Whiteness

18:47

evolve. This goal is to reinforce

18:49

power. To talk about

18:52

the Sopranos and why mob Weiss

18:54

aesthetics hold up. Twenty five years

18:56

later, I got a fellow Sopranos

18:58

superfan author Morgan's Earth Him in

19:00

her work see researchers Migration and

19:02

genealogy. And she also wrote a

19:04

piece for Vanity Fair about why

19:06

Black audiences love Italian Americans onscreen.

19:09

Together Which Racing House when you

19:11

follow the story of Italian immigration

19:13

D C Whiteness reinventing itself. Right

19:16

in front of your eyes. And see

19:18

a projection for how like this will continue

19:20

doing so. For generations to come. What?

19:23

To black woman see when they watch

19:26

the Sopranos and how the shows commentary

19:28

on whiteness seemed especially loud to us.

19:31

More in welcome to it's been a minute. Thank.

19:34

You for having me. Oh My.

19:36

God. I'm excited A specific.

19:39

Of it. So. Before we get into

19:42

how this. Iconic. So treats

19:44

whiteness. Our zoom out a little

19:46

bit. Okay, I want to ask you

19:48

what has whiteness. Met for Italian

19:50

Americans in this country who

19:53

I mean different things right?

19:55

When you think. about

19:57

when slavery ended

20:00

there was a huge void in the plantation of

20:02

Conde. Many African Americans

20:04

were migrating. And so

20:07

it left this opportunity for

20:09

Southern Italians in particular

20:11

to immigrate. And they immigrated

20:13

to the United States and they were working a

20:15

lot in the South. They were working, you know,

20:18

in Louisiana, they were working in the mines in

20:20

Birmingham, Alabama. They were working in these places. The

20:23

problem is, is that they didn't come

20:25

in at the top of the racial

20:28

or ethnic hierarchy. They were blowing the

20:30

lights towards the bottom. And in

20:32

fact, when this migration was

20:34

happening, as you can see

20:36

echoes of it today, there was a

20:39

lot of anti-immigrant sentiment. KKK was burning

20:41

up Catholic churches just like they were

20:43

burning up black churches. There were a

20:46

lot of newspapers that were stigmatizing Italian

20:48

men and Italian American men as being

20:50

violent. We have to also

20:53

keep in mind that the way we think

20:55

about whiteness is never static. At

20:57

that time, they, the Italians were not

20:59

considered white. Okay,

21:01

let's turn now to the show itself. There's

21:04

an episode relatively early on in

21:07

the series where Tony plays golf with a

21:09

colleague of his. And the colleague has some

21:11

friends who are kind

21:13

of like the quintessential

21:15

idea of waspiness. You

21:20

know, we ought to see about making you a member. Or at least

21:22

assimilated Italian

21:24

Americanness. You

21:26

can tell that they definitely see themselves

21:29

as distinct from Tony. Tony,

21:32

you ever play that place in Orlando? No,

21:35

I never get down there. Well, Disney

21:38

World. Oh,

21:40

Al's place. And the way

21:42

they interact with him, questions about

21:44

the mob, stereotyping the way he talks,

21:47

quoting the same mob films that honestly

21:50

I love, that a lot of us love.

21:53

Tony, let me ask you a question. And now

21:55

if I'm stepping on the toes, tell me. How

21:58

real was the guy's vibe? What do you

22:00

mean in your opinion? What do you mean

22:03

real? Authentic or not? I

22:06

don't know. How

22:08

would I know? It felt... Extremely

22:11

familiar to a viewer like me. It

22:13

felt extremely familiar to me as a

22:15

black woman. Right, because that's the

22:18

thing about white

22:20

culture. Is that you will

22:22

never be us. You may play

22:24

golf with us. You may wear the

22:26

same clothes as us. You may go to the

22:28

same private schools as our children. You

22:30

may break bread in the same restaurants with us. But

22:33

you will never be us. And it's

22:35

through certain jabs, conversationally, where

22:37

you're reminded of that. You are

22:39

the outlier. You are on the

22:41

margin still. In the article you wrote for

22:43

Vanity Fair, you also point to

22:45

a specific moment where Toni's wife Carmella is talking

22:47

about Toni's daughter, Meadow. And

22:50

there was this conversation about how when

22:52

she was born, Carmella's mother, who was

22:54

from northern Italy, was concerned

22:57

when Meadow came out darker skin, and that

22:59

she was worried that Meadow would grow up

23:01

to have a darker complexion. Whatever we are,

23:03

I am proud of it, unlike you, obviously.

23:06

I have always been proud of my heritage.

23:08

Oh shit. I remember you telling Aunt Rosie

23:10

that you were glad that D'Angelo didn't end in a vowel.

23:13

I ain't there to send that. And when

23:15

Meadow came out, oh my god, she's so dark.

23:18

You're drunk, I'm going home. There are

23:20

Italians all around with their closet self-loathing.

23:22

I just never wanted to believe my

23:24

mother was one of them. I mean, for

23:26

a deeper context here, Toni's family, the Sopranos

23:29

eye is from southern Italy. As

23:31

with other countries that are sort of in the

23:33

Mediterranean, there's an association with darker skin, darker hair

23:35

in the southern region, then lighter

23:37

skin and possibly lighter hair or lighter eyes.

23:40

And in the northern region, these aren't a one-to-one thing, but

23:42

these are cultural associations. And Toni's

23:45

Sopranos, he even mentions that she's

23:47

their family thinks that they're better

23:49

because they're more Germanic in

23:51

terms of their appearance than he is. That

23:53

was such an interesting moment on

23:55

the show. I know it reminded

23:58

me of similar conversations Around. Hello

24:00

Rhythm Between. Black. People,

24:02

that's something we have. We should have

24:04

these two communities black people and Italian

24:07

people. One was able to assimilate tool

24:09

whiteness at I'll be a Conditional by

24:11

this one is never gonna be. This

24:13

was simply airwaves. And the because of the

24:15

subway. The high or who is set

24:17

up but bet. M C black with

24:20

other he fit all be into dark. You.

24:22

Know what I mean that is with

24:24

in both communities. It's also interesting to.

24:27

Consider these Italian Americans.

24:30

With in the context of actual it'll

24:32

be he's. Like address if you felt

24:34

this very often. I felt

24:36

like Tony and his crew often glamorized Italy.

24:38

You know what it felt like The so

24:41

it's kind of poking fun. At.

24:43

Them for it. But I.

24:46

I. Empathize with that right? Because

24:48

I think of me growing up

24:50

says no, be used to talk

24:52

about the motherland. Africa is a

24:54

big as Katsidis you know, Sanctuary,

24:56

multiple ethnicity, so many holes midway

24:59

again and and even if you

25:01

find out they you were. Are

25:03

you ball or Europa? Right

25:05

on are you know or or fall

25:08

from Senegal or or Gambia Guinea Bissau.

25:10

Even if you find that out today

25:12

with they're Gonna do you go to

25:14

here tomorrow. Said. Doesn't necessarily

25:17

mean you can easily able to see

25:19

back in. What? Was taken from

25:21

you Yeah, four hundred years ago,

25:23

right? So I sleep with Tony

25:25

in that like it's easy to

25:27

glamorize. The. Origin of your ears

25:29

as where you don't live There rights

25:31

but. I've. Often seen as play

25:34

out in many different characters who are

25:36

of margin rather than is ours new

25:38

black The Sopranos. It's like you are

25:40

of this particular December. You are not

25:42

this. You're still not There Has to

25:44

be fair, I did it. It's The

25:46

Sopranos. I've seen a taboo the Jersey

25:49

Shore Wizards when they went to Italy

25:51

by that one season the as why

25:53

but even think about the backlash that

25:55

they die either from other Italian Americans

25:57

who they said this is not the.

26:00

of this representation of the time Americans we want to

26:02

get out there. Oh, I remember. Where have we heard

26:04

an echo like that before? That

26:08

was beyond it. It's true. I mean, so much

26:10

black entertainment has gotten that exact

26:12

kind of backlash from within

26:14

our community. Absolutely. I wonder,

26:17

I don't know, do you think there

26:19

was kind of a meta narrative there

26:21

though about how whiteness operates

26:24

outside of American-ness? Well,

26:27

I think it's because when you are

26:29

considering an American, that

26:33

sort of is the umbrella

26:35

of everything. Right? Even

26:37

if you're black, like when you

26:39

are an American, it is a different kind

26:42

of privilege. Absolutely. So

26:44

I think that that's something to

26:47

be mindful of. Yeah. I mean,

26:49

despite dealing with prejudices, you know,

26:52

against Italian Americans, like, on

26:55

American soil, despite dealing with all

26:57

sorts of classes and

26:59

assimilationist, like just kind of

27:01

BS from people within

27:03

their community, dealing with essentially racism from

27:06

people outside of their community. The

27:08

characters on the show, the Italian

27:10

American characters on the show, regularly

27:12

exhibit racist, xenophobic behavior.

27:14

They are saying some of those, I will say

27:16

some of the most inventive, racist things I've ever

27:19

heard in my entire life. Well, you did. But

27:21

I mean, most of these people are racist as

27:23

hell. And in the world of the show, I

27:26

wonder, why are they so invested in the

27:28

same system of prejudice that

27:31

is enacted against them? You

27:33

can ask anybody who's

27:35

been racially targeted that

27:38

question, right? Because I

27:41

don't want to have the same proximity to

27:43

white violence as you. Hmm. If

27:46

I hate you, even

27:49

though that same reason why I hate you is why

27:51

somebody else will hate me, well, at least I could show

27:53

I'm not like you. And that

27:55

might make me safer, even though

27:57

that idea of safety is a mirage. What

28:00

about you to another room? I'll be

28:02

reminded there is no. Different levels

28:04

here. you still. Believe me, that's all

28:06

that matters. Are posted an ad

28:09

that you can. A psycho

28:11

I'm anti. Blackness is like a tool.

28:14

A second life raft almost that you can

28:16

grab onto to put space between you and

28:19

the thing that you really don't want to

28:21

be which is black, at least in this

28:23

country. Yes, and that's the thing.

28:25

As a anti blackness, there's anti

28:27

blackness and black comedies of anti

28:30

blackness in every single community, because

28:32

as long as you're not like

28:34

them, You have sat there

28:36

lease on that like do because

28:38

you. On, like the

28:40

Irish, the Polish, for example,

28:43

isn't you know, and of

28:45

course the Italians. They could

28:47

assimilate. You chance. There.

28:49

Has to be someone at the. Bottom. Of

28:52

Them Hierarchy. And. I go to be

28:54

called be a. Good fit with heat.

28:56

that's the last six yes, got a brain.

28:58

Brain is into the real world as you

29:00

know, because art imitates life and not. He

29:03

says he got the inspiration for these characters

29:05

from something. I'm. I'd

29:07

argue that that we're in a slightly

29:09

different place when it comes to Italian

29:11

Americans now, and I get on the

29:13

whole on the hole. In my opinion,

29:16

I think that most Americans overwhelmingly do

29:18

see Italian Americans as quite Some people

29:20

talk about ethnic whiteness as in like

29:22

you still have your sort of ethnic

29:24

pride from you know, the whole winter

29:26

your home country but in the United

29:28

States and you crack open that census

29:31

is good Sec eight rates officer for

29:33

stare. At the sopranos were

29:35

to be made to death or a so

29:37

light. That's. At work

29:39

to be about is sort of

29:42

like. A conditional whiteness

29:44

and maybe assimilationist journey or

29:47

assimilationist themes? Like of a so

29:49

like that. We're we're to be made today.

29:51

What group do you think it would

29:53

be based off of all May I

29:56

was just thing about Romney. I

29:59

think it supports or. that while

30:01

the Sopranos was on the way, 9-11

30:03

happened. So there was this

30:06

extreme desire for

30:08

patriotism, American values,

30:12

and a very Islamophobic sentiment,

30:14

but that's still permeating right

30:17

now. You know, and

30:19

I think, and because we now know that,

30:21

you know, within the next 20 years, white

30:24

people are not going to be the

30:26

majority. That's what's projected. Yes. I have

30:29

thoughts about that, but go ahead. Yeah.

30:31

If the majority can't hold on to

30:33

the majority, will the notion of whiteness

30:35

expand? Who else will expand too? That

30:38

is something that has been on my mind. I mean, I

30:40

find it interesting that opportunities have

30:43

arisen for many Latinas and

30:45

even Asian Americans to

30:47

be welcomed into whiteness and

30:50

whether there are people who actually choose

30:52

to identify as white who maybe, you

30:54

know, come from an ethnic group that

30:56

20 or 30 years ago would not

30:58

have been considered white. Yeah. And more

31:00

and more people have the opportunity to

31:02

choose to identify as white. I don't

31:04

know. I wonder, will this supposedly majority-minority

31:08

moment actually come? If whiteness

31:11

keeps expanding, is it

31:13

ever going to be the minority? Oh,

31:15

Lord. I don't think so. I

31:17

also think that this country was

31:20

predicated on white

31:24

rule. And

31:26

if you aren't the majority anymore, what

31:29

happens? This is why you have a

31:31

rise of Trump. Because if I can

31:33

make you fear that your safety now

31:36

as a white person is

31:38

a mirage, that your children

31:40

are not safe because they always bring up

31:43

the children involved in it. That's

31:45

what will get you to either

31:47

spew violent rhetoric or act in

31:49

violent ways to reinforce

31:51

this hierarchy. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

31:54

I have to make you scared.

31:56

But, you know, there's going to

31:58

be people. who are going to be listening to this,

32:01

who are going to think like, okay, white, white,

32:03

white, talking about white people, white, white, white,

32:05

white, white, white, two black women talking about

32:07

white people. They're going to freak out, right?

32:10

Okay. But I wonder like,

32:12

uh, you know, or there may be people

32:14

who are listening who may even think, why

32:16

should I care? Why should people care?

32:19

Why should we care if other people

32:21

want to identify as white? And

32:23

so I, I ask you that question. Why

32:25

should we care if people want to identify

32:28

as white? I think because

32:30

we have to think about why do

32:33

I want to be this instead

32:35

of this? What

32:38

is being elevated in this moment and what

32:40

is being obscured? There

32:42

has to be a benefit in saying, I'm

32:44

going to say I'm this rather than this.

32:47

I'm going to check this bubble rather than

32:49

that. Hmm.

32:54

This is exactly the conversation that

32:56

I have been wanting to have

32:58

since I press play on

33:00

season one, episode one of

33:02

the Sopranos. So thank

33:04

you so, so much for coming on today to talk

33:06

with me. Thank you.

33:08

Thank you so much for

33:11

having me. That was Morgan Jerkin,

33:13

fellow Sopranos fan and author of

33:15

wandering in strange lands coming

33:17

up. I know, I know. Ms.

33:19

Megan Thee Stallion and Ms. Nicki

33:21

Minaj. The beef is

33:24

well done and I have some

33:26

thoughts right after this quick break.

33:42

Hey, Brittany. Hey, Brittany. Hey,

33:44

Brittany. Hey, Brittany. Hey, Brittany. Ray

33:47

Love Jr. calling in from LA. And what's

33:49

on my mind this week that I would

33:51

love to know your thoughts on if the

33:53

rap beef going down between Megan Thee Stallion

33:56

and Nicki Minaj? Is it time for the

33:58

queen to give up her throne? What

34:00

say you, Britney? Ray, Ray,

34:02

Ray. I think this is a

34:04

question that's been on all of America's minds this week. For

34:07

those of you who don't know, last week, Megan

34:09

Thee Stallion released a new

34:11

single called Hiss, wherein she

34:13

basically, without naming names, aired out

34:16

a few people who had done her

34:18

dirty over the past few years in this

34:20

rap game and in her life. There

34:22

was a lot in there, but this is the lyric

34:24

that really got things heated. It's

34:26

fine. It's gonna be Megan. This

34:29

is Megan's law. I don't even know what the problem is, but I

34:31

can't see why I want me to start. Now

34:33

if you didn't know, Megan's law is

34:35

a mandate that the public be

34:37

notified about registered sex offenders. It

34:40

has nothing to do with Megan Thee

34:42

Stallion, and many see that lyric as

34:44

a diss to Nicki Minaj's husband, Kenneth

34:46

Petty, who failed to register in California

34:49

as a sex offender and

34:51

was sentenced to house arrest. In

34:53

response, Nicki released a

34:56

series of tweets and live videos,

34:58

and she eventually released her own

35:00

diss song called Bigfoot. I know

35:03

that I'm a fly on your6 baby and I'm a lie

35:05

on the line and lie, oh wait a minute. Now

35:07

listen up Bigfoot. So

35:10

in the song, Nicki accuses Megan

35:12

of lying and brings Megan's deceased

35:15

mother into it. And on top of that,

35:17

I don't think the song is that good. Now, this

35:20

is something that I'm excited to talk about,

35:23

but I thought this week we'd do

35:25

something a little different and bring in

35:27

an expert, a real expert to

35:29

chat this out with me. So

35:32

to talk about this very pressing

35:34

issue, we have invited storyteller, music

35:37

industry veteran, black music and culture

35:39

critic, and professor at

35:41

the Clive Davis Institute of

35:44

Recorded Music and NYU, Naima

35:46

Conkren. Hi Brittany. Hello.

35:49

Welcome, welcome, welcome. This

35:51

beef between Nicki Minaj and Megan Thee Stallion,

35:53

what do you think of all this? Oh, it's a lot

35:55

of, it's a lot of things here. Crucially the problem

35:57

is that Nicki is literally just. mad

36:00

that other female rappers are actually successful

36:02

and they exist. She's not

36:04

mad at the men. I've noticed that she

36:06

doesn't tend to beef with the men. She

36:09

is mad at the women unless they kiss

36:11

the ring. And even then,

36:13

if you deign to work with, be

36:15

cool with, take a photo with anybody

36:17

else, she then is mad at you

36:19

as well. The thing is that

36:21

Nikki is at a point in her career. She

36:24

is a legacy artist. It doesn't mean she's washed

36:26

up. It doesn't mean she has

36:28

been, but it does mean like her

36:30

position should shift to

36:32

create space for

36:34

artists to come behind her. Maggie is not

36:36

her peer. You know what I

36:38

mean? Maggie is a generation behind her. Cardi's

36:41

a generation behind her. And

36:44

yet somehow she sees them as competition,

36:46

but they're not each other's competition. No,

36:49

no. These are not her peers. Ray

36:52

asked if it's time for the queen to

36:54

relinquish her crown. When Nikki was in her

36:56

sense, because of the way

36:58

the industry was structured at the time, she was in her

37:00

lane by herself for so long. All of

37:03

her predecessors were off the scene for various

37:05

reasons. And whenever they

37:07

would pop their heads up, Nikki

37:09

was very quick to kind of just play

37:11

them, whatever. So I think maybe we're

37:13

seeing a projection based on

37:15

what being an older

37:18

stateswoman meant to her.

37:20

And I think she just can't concede

37:22

that like, boo-boo, you can still be

37:24

you. Nobody can take away Nikki's

37:27

feats, her accolades, her talent

37:29

at all, anything. But

37:31

she seems to feel like this

37:34

is an eraser situation and it doesn't have

37:36

to be there really is room. I

37:38

like the way that you put this. It's

37:40

not necessarily that Nikki is time for her to

37:42

hang up her crown. She's kind of doing it

37:45

to a certain degree herself. And the sad part

37:47

is that she really doesn't have to. But I mean,

37:50

Nikki's got a scratching our heads right

37:53

now. And also as a former Barb,

37:55

covering my face with shame. But

37:57

I wonder, do you see a positive? to

38:00

her, do you see way back her former

38:03

story? I don't know. And here is why

38:05

I'll say I don't know. First

38:07

of all, this isn't new

38:09

for Nikki. She's been trending in this direction for

38:11

quite some time. So,

38:14

you know, her brand now is

38:16

Mean Girl, right? And

38:18

kind of like petty Mean Girl. What's happening

38:20

to Nikki, to me, it kind of is a parallel, what

38:22

happens, it's happening to Kanye, which is like

38:25

the antics for a little while, like

38:28

everybody's kind of let it go and laugh

38:30

it off in part because they were creating really

38:33

strong parts. But now the

38:35

art is falling off. So it's

38:37

like, you can't be problematic

38:40

and your art be falling off.

38:42

Like- There's literally no excuse for

38:44

anybody to engage with you at that point.

38:46

Yeah. The quality of your

38:48

art has to be equal to

38:50

or superior to being

38:53

anti, right? As a

38:55

person, in order for people to be able to

38:58

deal with it. I think that she's going to

39:00

have to come to some realization within

39:02

herself, right? Before it translates over to

39:05

the business side. Hmm.

39:07

Well, Naima, all

39:09

we can do is kind of see what happens. But I'm

39:11

so glad that I got to talk this through with you.

39:13

Rene, thank you so much for having me and let me

39:15

share my thoughts on this. Rene, there you have it.

39:18

My thoughts and Naima's, like

39:20

I said, we're going to have to see how

39:22

this all plays out. But till Monday, avoid

39:25

the bookings and the barbs. Have a

39:27

good weekend. This

39:30

episode of It's Been A Minute was

39:32

produced by- Karen Gertwood. Alexis Williams. Liam

39:35

McVane. Corey Antonio Rose. This

39:38

episode was edited by- Jessica Placzak.

39:40

Engineering support came from- Robert

39:43

Rodriguez. Gilly Moon. We had

39:45

fact checking help from- Barkley Walsh. Our

39:48

executive producer is- Verelyn Williams.

39:51

Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini.

39:54

All right. That's all for this episode of It's

39:56

Been A Minute for PNPR. I'm

39:58

Behili. Talk to you later. Thank you.