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Wednesdays only on Hulu. Hello,

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hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and

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you're listening to It's Been a Minute

0:27

from NPR, a show about what's going on

0:29

in culture and why it doesn't happen by

0:32

accident. A

0:40

quick warning, this segment includes mention of

0:42

domestic violence, pedophilia, and sexual abuse. This

0:46

week, we're connecting the dots between 47 minutes of

0:48

music, the meanest rap

0:50

lines maybe ever, and a Pulitzer

0:52

Prize winner. How are all

0:55

these things connected? Well, we're going to

0:57

find out with NPR's Sydney Madden and

0:59

writer, Terhaka Love. Sydney, Terhaka, welcome

1:01

to It's Been a Minute. What's up,

1:03

Brittany? It's good to be here. And

1:05

boy, do we have a lot

1:07

to unpack here. I barely even

1:10

want to go here just considering some

1:12

of the subject matter, but someone has

1:14

got to call out all these

1:16

men involved for the mess they have made.

1:18

I'm obviously talking about Drake and Kendrick Lamar,

1:20

who have been going at each other for

1:23

weeks. Multiple at this

1:25

point on diss track after diss track.

1:27

And this past week, things

1:30

definitely escalated. I don't even know

1:32

if escalated captures what went down.

1:35

What word would each of you use to

1:37

describe the back and forth between them and

1:39

where we're at now? Oh,

1:43

you're both like kind of grimacing,

1:45

like... Little

1:48

disconcerting. Yeah. The first word

1:50

that comes to my mind,

1:53

because of how much dirt has

1:55

been unearthed right now, is really

1:58

just like, ooh, uncomfortable. Cringy.

2:00

Yeah, yeah, I think those are

2:02

both two very very apt words

2:04

to describe the moment that we're in

2:06

right now with this beef So to catch those

2:09

of you up who may not be aware

2:11

between Drake and Kendrick Lamar We're

2:13

talking about nine diss tracks 47

2:15

minutes of music basically a

2:18

whole album's worth of content

2:21

I'll never get that time back Never

2:23

get that time back. I mean there

2:25

are deep references fly footnotes

2:27

and great punches Next

2:30

to extremely low blows and a lot of outlets

2:32

have done a track by track breakdown and we're not

2:34

here to do that today We're here to talk about

2:37

who the two biggest rappers have left in the

2:39

wreckage Starting with women Sydney

2:42

you and I both have been talking about how Kendrick and

2:44

Drake are using women in pretty awful ways in

2:46

these Songs. What are they saying? Oh They

2:49

saying a whole lot massage on war

2:51

seems to be the running theme in

2:53

upping the ante and a lot of

2:55

rap beef in these It

2:58

really is the skeleton key

3:00

to getting the hardest hits on there.

3:02

So one of Drake's

3:05

hardest thoughts at Kendrick is Basically

3:08

saying you talk about all this pro

3:10

black free the slave Pulitzer Prize winner

3:12

Kenny That are that when low-key you

3:15

really prefer white women and you never

3:17

had any intention of marrying your light

3:19

skin black wife And you've

3:21

actually beat on her before and then in

3:24

a rebuttal Kendrick has

3:26

been coming at Drake repeatedly now

3:28

by saying not only are you

3:30

a culture vulture and you

3:32

treat black women disposably you have a

3:34

penchant for underage girls as this other

3:36

people in your crew and some

3:39

of these things have been fact-checked like Baca not

3:41

nice who's a rapper in Drake's crew who is

3:43

convicted of Assaulting a

3:45

young woman and who was accused of

3:48

running a prostitution ring. So you can

3:50

see on both sides It's very much

3:52

women left in the wake to pick

3:55

up the pieces about all the dirt

3:57

that these men have done Allegedly allegedly.

3:59

Yes Yeah I got a personal

4:01

level of the a Heavy. Allegedly either

4:03

mention this is it new or me

4:05

using women as pawns. Been thinking about

4:07

like the bridges over care of one

4:09

in Iraq since on takes or something

4:11

else. that's also. Not new is

4:13

both Cancer and Drake leading

4:15

on homophobia? sometimes trans phobia.

4:18

In their back and forth, it's low.

4:20

It's a bear saying he knows what

4:22

we. See it way too much still

4:24

and hip hop. But to hackers you

4:26

think there's also something new here. Listen.

4:29

I don't know if there's ever been a

4:32

time. Where. Are rap superstar for

4:34

two reps to preserve our contemporary and

4:36

one is accusing the other a pedophilia

4:38

like in the loudest possible way. Real

4:41

loud Yes. And we all know the

4:43

story that him going girls' basketball games

4:45

and it's in our faces. Just.

4:47

Like it's interfaces for a lot of different industries

4:50

when it comes to this sort of behavior. But.

4:53

Contemporaries people who are making. Their

4:55

record label? Billions of dollars, right?

4:58

That. Does it usually

5:00

happen? And so. This.

5:03

Level of allegation. Maybe.

5:05

It should inspire some sort of investigation for

5:07

the vote for it hasn't started of course

5:10

but outside of that is inspired a lot

5:12

of fun right? like of insight about I

5:14

people going out to the club and listening

5:16

to this song. To yeah I

5:18

it's it's villa. For my brain to handle

5:20

seeing all of these like tic tac videos. Of

5:22

people making not dances or being

5:25

in the club does. Turning up

5:27

to this song in the the

5:29

has this lyric in a Certified

5:31

Lover Boy Certified have had I

5:33

had a file. Miles south of France

5:35

have a voice or five miles. And

5:39

I'm like. Wow

5:41

I was. That was. A

5:44

city? it? it's unclear, right? Now is the claims

5:46

that Center for Mars Domestic Abuse or True. But

5:49

let's talk more about these allegations around

5:51

Drake to Huck as he mentions there.

5:53

Are some things that we seen and heard

5:55

over the years. It's a while that this

5:57

has been in the atmosphere for some time,

5:59

but. No one has previously called

6:01

outrage in this way. Yeah, Will

6:04

you make of all this? Will.

6:06

Will we know in his rap he is.

6:09

It's only cool and in vogue to call

6:11

out someone's massage and wire when it benefits

6:13

you to grandstand who a lot of have

6:15

bought them and as have been very vigilant

6:17

and vocal about this for a long time

6:20

but now. It's being raised to

6:22

a more mainstream conversation because it's

6:24

a hit that kinda busy making

6:26

their been many people who have

6:28

seen. Drake buddy up

6:31

to Young. Hollywood Stars

6:33

in the past. Millie Bobby Brown

6:35

Chile I listen and went. Millie

6:37

Bobby Brown was thirteen see met

6:39

Drake at a concert. He was

6:41

thirty or thirty one at the

6:43

time. From there they started a

6:45

friendship where she would pose instagram

6:47

photos by Hams. He said they

6:49

would text a lot in interviews

6:51

and they maintain desert friendship where

6:53

he would be. Her advice about

6:55

boys stuff like that. Spoken. About

6:57

interviews before very loud proud. Loved!

7:00

Now add on the

7:02

proximity to celebrities. On

7:04

top. Of that drilled beings this huge

7:06

of femoral, biggest pop star rapper

7:08

and the world. Some would argue

7:10

it's a recurring theme that a

7:12

lotta people have clocked by a

7:14

lot of mainstream. or let's say

7:16

like hip hop gate keepers have

7:18

let slide for a really long

7:20

time because either they do in

7:22

the dirt themselves are they wanna

7:24

be close to Drake? Sign. Is

7:26

amazing to me because you know a lot

7:28

of times we'll call things out and. When.

7:31

We have like conversations around accountability him

7:33

and things of that nature is really

7:35

difficult for people who are not in

7:38

those circles to hold someone might drink

7:40

accountable Rape Zola when Kendrick is saying

7:42

hey Le Bron, hey stuff, keep your

7:44

kids from around this man. That's.

7:47

Kind of vague. these are people with

7:49

in their circles you can be accountable

7:51

to anyone who is not and community

7:54

with you when. I think about the

7:56

allegations that have been in our lives

7:58

back and forth. Serious. Don't

8:01

make turning stuff. Yeah and

8:03

to. Be clear, at this point there

8:05

is no evidence. That rate has committed

8:07

a crime for. It this gets into some of

8:09

the recent. Conversation about whether or not

8:12

rap lyrics are just arts. Or

8:14

if these statements from Kendrick because

8:16

for in actual criminal investigations are

8:19

where is this fall? In the

8:21

debate of art for says life

8:23

is. So interesting. I mean, this

8:25

is the time we live in

8:27

right now. as well as all

8:29

this you know, motions hugely vaguely

8:32

of us is happening young thug

8:34

child elias else has also going

8:36

on in Atlanta in Georgia right

8:38

now. and the Big T in

8:40

the prosecution's case is a lot

8:42

of thugs. Rap. Lyrics being

8:44

used against him. A lot of

8:46

interact with did a big deep dive

8:49

about their historical roots of how rap

8:51

lyrics have been used really as a

8:53

racist motivator in so many ways, right?

8:55

So that's where it gets really sticky

8:57

cause you gotta have something other than

8:59

the lyrics so you gotta have receipts.

9:01

I do think it's important that this

9:03

is happening and has been called out

9:06

and such a big stage because I'm

9:08

reminded of. How are

9:10

Kelly? Had accusations against them

9:12

for such a long time

9:15

and. People are still plan step

9:17

in the name allowed at that wedding

9:19

Overtime? Yeah, overtime. But the turning point

9:21

of again media really change the conversation.

9:23

That was a turning point that Diet.

9:26

Or Kelly outta his record deal.

9:28

That is when a lot as

9:30

accusations were mobilized on and there

9:33

was cases brought against sense and

9:35

is ultimately found guilty of. And

9:37

so this is a thing about

9:39

art imitating life and life influencing

9:42

the art like it can have

9:44

those ripple effect they can have

9:46

those professions but right now like

9:48

is not clear yet that that

9:51

is gonna happen. It takes journalists

9:53

reporters do this and we can see like in

9:55

your body movement in those are the things

9:57

as being defended is being destroyed. Or.

10:00

wonder who has the actual labor

10:02

power to do that. It took, what's

10:05

his name who did R. Kelly? We

10:07

tell Jim Darragatis? Darragatis, yeah. The Chicago

10:09

reporter. 15 years,

10:11

like he was going in for a long time. A

10:14

long time, long time. Zooming out

10:16

and taking like a longer view of this, one

10:19

thing I can't help but think about is

10:21

the Me Too movement and how all

10:23

of that plays into this. For a

10:25

long time, you know, myself and other

10:27

journalists have wondered when hip hop and

10:30

the music industry will have

10:32

its own reckoning. I

10:34

know you're sighing because you've done

10:36

years worth of reporting on

10:39

this exact topic. In

10:41

the last six months, we've seen Diddy

10:43

facing lawsuits by multiple people alleging

10:45

sex trafficking, sexual abuse and rape,

10:48

which he has completely denied. But Diddy

10:50

is from a past generation. Drake

10:53

and Kendrick are today's figures.

10:55

What do you all make

10:57

of this as

10:59

a potential opening of like

11:01

a can of Me Too for a new

11:05

generation or new generations of

11:07

men, particularly in hip hop?

11:10

The thing is, the pathway has

11:13

been open. Like we've been talking about

11:15

this for so long.

11:17

And thank you for shouting out the

11:19

reporting we did on Louder and season

11:22

two for it, because we really did just

11:24

show how it's a running

11:26

through line. And in

11:28

that reporting, we spoke to Tarana Burke, who

11:31

coined the term Me Too. Tarana is

11:33

a big hip hop fan, actually. Right.

11:35

Right. And she made the observation that

11:38

just crystallized why the Me Too movement

11:40

has not been able to like penetrate

11:42

hip hop in the same way. It's

11:44

because hip hop has

11:47

been fashioned as a liberatory

11:49

space for black people,

11:51

specifically black men. And if

11:54

you think about society writ large, there's

11:56

not that many places where black people's

11:58

voices, black men's voices are

12:00

prioritized and lifted up

12:02

and championed. And the black

12:05

cis male agenda is the one

12:07

that is always pushed to the

12:09

forefront. Anyone who is not

12:11

part of that group, it leads them on

12:13

the wayside. So I

12:16

don't wanna be pessimistic. I think this

12:18

is a huge moment. This is a

12:20

huge opportunity. But

12:23

as a culture, the opportunities have

12:25

been there and it's like slipped

12:27

by before. We

12:30

will see, we will see, but Sydney, it's her

12:32

haka. I have learned so much here from

12:34

talking to you both. Thank you both so

12:36

much. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank

12:39

you. And as a thank

12:41

you to both of you, I

12:43

would like to teach you something by playing a game

12:46

with you all. Can you stick around for a tiny

12:48

bit longer? Of course. No, I gotta go, I gotta

12:50

go. Yeah. Oh, love.

12:52

Yeah, so for it. All right, well, we'll

12:54

be right back with a little game. I

12:56

like to call, what did you know? Stick

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13:36

this week's wild card, we talk with

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Issa Rae about those moments where our

13:40

lives could have gone another direction. Definitely

13:43

wasn't supposed to be like that at all.

13:45

At all, but I still think about it.

13:47

I'm Rachel Martin. Issa Rae tells us how

13:49

to make peace with the path not taken. That's

13:51

on the wild card podcast from NPR, the

13:54

game where cars control the conversation. There

13:59

are. There are a lot of issues on voters' minds

14:01

right now. Six big ones

14:04

could help decide the election.

14:06

Guns, reproductive rights, immigration,

14:09

the economy, healthcare, and the

14:11

wars overseas. On the Consider This

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podcast from NPR, we will unpack

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the debates on these issues, and what's

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at stake? You can listen to NPR's

14:20

Consider This wherever you get your

14:22

podcasts. All

14:25

right, all right. We're

14:29

going to play a little game I like to call, but

14:32

did you know? Here's

14:35

how it works. I'm going to share a story that's

14:37

been making headlines this week, and as I give you some

14:39

background on the story, I'll also

14:42

ask you trivia related to it.

14:44

But don't worry, there's all multiple choice,

14:47

so the right answer is in there somewhere, and

14:50

the first one to blur out

14:52

the right answer. Get some

14:54

sight. Person with the most points wins. Are you

14:56

all ready? What do we win? Bragging rights. That's

14:58

the only prize. This is public media, T'Haka. T'Haka

15:00

with a real question. What an elephant. This past

15:03

week was the first Monday in May, which means

15:05

the Met Gala. Anna

15:11

Wintour's annual fashion expo featuring a

15:13

red carpet. I think this year

15:16

might have been green and white, but you know

15:18

what I mean. With the who's who a-listers of

15:20

the moment dressing up in the most attention seeking

15:22

fashion, all on a single theme.

15:25

This year's theme was the Garden of Time,

15:27

whatever that means. And I'll say, judging by

15:29

some of the outfits I saw, I

15:31

don't know if everybody is. But

15:35

we're going to run through each of our favorite looks from

15:37

the night and play some trivia about each of

15:39

them. Okay? Let's do it. Yes.

15:42

Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay.

15:45

So Sydney, you picked Sandeia as one of the best dressed of the

15:47

night. She was also one of this year's hosts of the Met Gala,

15:49

and she had not one, but two red carpet

15:51

looks. I have to say, I love them both as well. Obviously,

15:54

Sandeia is having quite a moment starring

15:56

in two of the biggest movies so

15:58

far this year. Dune 2,

16:01

and Challengers. But before she was

16:03

the it girl of the moment,

16:05

she was just a 12 year

16:07

old backup dancer in a Sears

16:09

commercial. Which of these other pop

16:11

stars was Zendaya a backup dancer for?

16:14

Was it A, Miley Cyrus, B,

16:17

Selena Gomez, or C,

16:20

Ariana Grande? Ariana?

16:24

I'm going B, I'm going B, Selena

16:26

Gomez. So the answer is

16:28

B. Selena

16:30

Gomez. And

16:33

here's your Chicago. Let's go, let's go,

16:35

let's go. Selena

16:38

starred in a 2009 kids clothing commercial

16:40

for Sears called I'm Gonna Arrive.

16:42

Which I'm like already the title is not

16:44

motivating me. I'm like, are you arriving? Are

16:46

you on your way? I'm gonna arrive. Which

16:49

featured lyrics like, we got new

16:51

t-shirts, our looks are gonna roll

16:53

you, a style fire

16:56

controls you. Sound like a diss track.

17:00

Literally terrifying. Right.

17:03

I was like, I don't know. I'm like, is she cut

17:05

through? Did she get in contact with

17:07

my fulfillment? I don't know. So

17:10

Zendaya can be seen dancing in

17:12

the background of that commercial. I

17:14

have to find this. Yeah, I need it. I

17:16

need to see it. It's something, that's

17:19

also, it's really something. All

17:21

right, all right. Our next Met

17:23

Gala look comes from you, Tohaka.

17:25

You picked supermodel Anok Yai, who

17:28

was dripping in diamonds in this

17:31

skin type jeweled jumpsuit.

17:33

It's gorgeous. It was gradient blue. If you

17:35

haven't seen it, you need to Google it.

17:37

And Google all of her Met Gala looks

17:39

gorgeous. I mean, just perfect. Literally a perfect

17:41

human being walking on the earth. Okay.

17:44

So for those who don't know,

17:46

Anok is a supermodel, a super

17:48

dupermodel with a very special line

17:51

on her resume. After

17:53

Naomi Campbell, she is the first black

17:55

model to lead a runway for which

17:57

of these fashion houses? Is

18:00

it A, Baumeut, B,

18:02

Chanel, or C, Prada? Oh,

18:05

I'm... I'm gonna say

18:07

Chanel. Sydney says Chanel. Tucker, what do you

18:09

say? I'm trying to think who's the most racist.

18:14

That's why I'm like, who would take the longest

18:16

to do this, you know? I'm gonna go

18:18

Prada. Well, the answer is

18:21

C, Prada. Wow.

18:26

Yes. Let's go! You're

18:28

killing it! Fun fact,

18:31

Anouk was discovered at

18:33

Howard University Homecoming when this guy took a

18:35

photo of her that went viral. It's

18:38

so random. Yeah, and that jump started her modeling

18:40

career. And that jumped started her modeling career. That is

18:42

amazing black history. I know! I

18:44

know! All right, but to recap the

18:46

score... You all gotta recap the score,

18:48

Brittany. No, let's run that back. Let's run that back.

18:50

Let's go. Sydney, you are at

18:53

zero points for now, for now. And

18:56

T'Haka, you're at two points, okay? So

18:59

without further ado, my choice for favorite look

19:01

at the Met Gala goes to the

19:03

R&B singer, Tyler, who was so

19:05

on theme for the Garden of Time

19:07

by wearing a dress made of literal sand.

19:11

Yes, the sands of time. She

19:13

looked like she descended from the beach, okay? I

19:15

mean, she ate it. She did eat. She

19:17

did eat. She really did eat. Especially for her first

19:19

Met, and like, she's like, I am making an entrance.

19:21

You gonna know my name. Here's

19:24

this moment where like, I mean, understandably, a dress

19:26

made of sand is not exactly... How you

19:28

move in. ...is it move around in? So

19:31

she had to get lifted up, lifted,

19:33

hoisted, hoisted each time. I was like,

19:35

wow. As she was being

19:37

lifted, it was like she was able to kind of

19:39

like, almost like a ballerina kind of keep her same

19:41

posture. Give face. Exactly. I

19:45

would have been like, oh, carry me. But

19:48

before she was my red carpet winner

19:50

and an R&B singer, Tyler

19:52

was a university student, just like many people out there.

19:54

Okay. What

19:57

was Tyler studying before she

19:59

dropped out? out to pursue music.

20:01

Oh my gosh. Was it A,

20:04

mining engineering, B, computer

20:06

science, or

20:08

C, oceanography? I'm going

20:10

A, I'm going A. Sir Haka says

20:13

A, what say you, Sydney? I'm

20:16

gonna say computer science. Oh

20:18

my gosh. The answer is A,

20:20

mining engineering. Yeah.

20:23

Let's go. Sir Haka,

20:25

sweet. I think this actually might be the first

20:28

sweet that we've ever had playing this game. Oh

20:30

my gosh. Let's talk about domination. Let's

20:32

talk about winning. You better be careful though. If

20:34

you gloat just a little too much, Sydney will

20:36

release a diss track. She

20:38

will release a diss track. I got it ready. She

20:40

will. Oh, you think you know pop culture? Let's

20:43

play a game of heavyweight. All

20:47

right. That is it for today's

20:50

edition of, but did you know?

20:52

Congratulations to Sir Haka on your

20:54

win. And Sydney,

20:57

girl, one day you will be back. And

21:00

I have faith. You will be back. You will be

21:02

back. I have faith. I have faith.

21:05

Well, both of you, Sydney Sir Haka, thank you

21:07

so much for joining me today. It was so great to have

21:09

you. This was really fun. Thank you. Thank you,

21:11

Rittany. That was NPR, Sydney Madden

21:13

and writer Sir Haka Love. I'm

21:16

gonna take a quick break. And when I get

21:18

back, I'm celebrating Mother's Day by looking

21:20

at how moms became America's social safety

21:22

net and why that's bad for

21:24

all of us. Ooh, I wanna hear

21:26

that. I wanna hear it. We had to bring

21:28

it from Mother's Day. Respect. Respect.

21:36

When the economic news gets to be a

21:39

bit much. Listen to the indicator

21:41

from Planet Money. We're here for you,

21:43

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indicator from Planet Money, your friendly

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economic sidekick. From NPR. Jasmine

21:58

Morris here from the StoryCorps podcast. Our

22:00

latest season is called My Way, stories

22:02

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22:04

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22:07

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22:11

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22:14

them on the StoryCorps podcast from NPR.

22:20

The economy right now

22:22

is bewildering, impenetrable, inconceivable.

22:24

But when you have the indicator

22:26

of our guys in your ears,

22:29

in under 10 minutes every day,

22:31

we simplify the complicated news like,

22:33

How does inflation drop? What the

22:35

heck is a SPAC? Why are

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trendy little high-fiber sodas suddenly dominating

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to the indicator from Planet Money and NPR. Taylor

22:45

Swift has dropped a new album. She

22:47

is the biggest pop star in the

22:49

world, and everything she does makes news.

22:52

I guess. Taylor is like, Oh

22:54

my God, I've been there, and you

22:56

can identify with it. For a breakdown

22:58

of Taylor Swift and her new album,

23:00

The Tortured Poets Department, listen to the

23:02

Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR.

23:10

My big question this week is, how

23:12

does our culture push women into patching

23:14

our social safety nets? This

23:19

weekend, many people will be celebrating Mother's

23:21

Day. And

23:24

for good reason. Lots of moms out there

23:26

do the most. Thinking about my

23:28

own mom. I mean, she was my Girl

23:30

Scout troop leader. She made Halloween costumes

23:32

by hand. It's hard for me

23:34

to think of anything she didn't do for my sisters and

23:36

me. But

23:38

my next guest, Dr. Jessica Calarco, thinks

23:40

that women and mothers are asked to

23:43

do too much. She thinks

23:45

our country has kind of replaced a safety net

23:47

with women. I know,

23:49

big statement. But what exactly does

23:51

a safety net do? The

23:54

point of a social safety net is essentially

23:56

to help people manage risks. And

23:58

so from that perspective, social

24:00

safety net would include policies that

24:02

essentially help protect people from falling

24:05

into poverty. These policies might

24:07

be government-provided health care, child care,

24:09

elder care, things that are, for

24:12

a lot of people, prohibitively expensive.

24:15

We do have some of these programs,

24:17

like Medicare, Social Security, and SNAP. But

24:20

Dr. Calarco says with over 30

24:22

million Americans still living in poverty,

24:25

they're nowhere near enough. In

24:27

the U.S., we instead have what we

24:29

might think of as a DIY society,

24:31

where people are expected to manage risks

24:33

on their own instead of relying on

24:35

a government safety net to help support

24:37

them. Dr. Calarco's new

24:40

book called Holding It Together is

24:42

about how in lieu of a safety

24:44

net, women are burdened most with managing

24:46

those risks, and mothers most of

24:48

all. But why don't

24:50

we do anything about it? Well, our

24:52

culture has some deeply rooted beliefs and

24:55

myths about women. Myths, it's

24:57

time to examine. So I sat down

24:59

with Dr. Calarco to expose them and

25:02

to hear about how things could work a little

25:04

differently. Dr.

25:08

Calarco, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thank you so much for

25:10

having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Oh,

25:12

it's great to have you. So we're going to get

25:14

into some myths today, but first we're going

25:17

to spend some time laying out what you

25:19

mean by safety net on a policy level.

25:22

When you're talking about an ideal safety

25:24

net in the United States, what does that look

25:26

like? Yeah, so essentially

25:28

a stronger social safety net

25:30

would ensure that everyone in society

25:32

can live with dignity from birth

25:34

through natural death. And so

25:37

one key step in that process

25:39

involves protecting people from parity, things

25:41

like raising the minimum wage, increasing

25:43

worker protections, expanding welfare and food

25:45

stamp programs and making them less

25:48

punitive. Another key step is

25:50

to make care of public good

25:52

rather than a private luxury. So

25:54

creating universal public systems for things

25:56

like health care and childcare and

25:58

elder care. And funding that

26:00

for sent to the level where the

26:03

care provided is both reliable and sustainable.

26:05

And then there's always going to be

26:07

a need for unpaid informal care of

26:09

between people. Things that like a community

26:11

or family would provide for each other

26:14

exactly and we can put in place

26:16

policies to strengthen network to things like

26:18

guaranteed paid sick leave paid family leave

26:20

laws that prevent employers from penalising workers

26:22

for requesting accommodations related to care of

26:24

kinds of policies can help to ensure

26:27

that all of us are available and

26:29

have the resources. And support that we need

26:31

to do to be part of this community and

26:33

family projects that support each other and to

26:35

do so without risking our own wellbeing, our own

26:38

financial security. The process. Of

26:40

it. So no matter what people might

26:42

think about all that, I think many

26:44

parents would agree that good childcare is

26:46

expensive and hard to find. but there

26:49

was a time when things could have

26:51

gone another way. He told story. Yeah

26:54

to. Essentially during World War Two

26:56

with so many men are citing

26:58

in battle, we needed as many

27:00

women as possible to join the

27:02

workforce and for the decided to

27:04

put inside health care centers funded

27:06

through the Lanham Act. When married

27:08

women with small children have to take

27:11

jobs, everything possible will be done to

27:13

provide care of for the children. That.

27:16

Made it possible for of mothers that young

27:18

children to get the care that they needed

27:20

to make it possible for them to work

27:23

for pay. And the thing is, at the

27:25

end of the war, we could have made

27:27

those centers permanent and we could have expanded

27:29

them to all communities across the U S.

27:31

That's what many of our European allies did,

27:34

places like friend opting to expand the childcare

27:36

centers that they put in place during the

27:38

war and paid family leave policies conflict with

27:40

the national healthcare program is or what many

27:43

countries are pursuing in Europe after both or

27:45

two, but instead the. Us decided to

27:47

prioritize the short term interests of the

27:49

economy, which meant making room for the

27:51

men who. Are returning from more to have

27:54

jobs that our economy. and pushing them in

27:56

back home and so to do that they'd

27:58

shuttered those health care centers that

28:00

we didn't have to restructure our economy, or they

28:02

do things like raise taxes to create a permanent

28:05

safety net for women to be able to work

28:07

for pay, but it also laid

28:09

the groundwork for so many policies that followed

28:11

because it created a structure where it just

28:13

seemed natural and logical to rely on women

28:16

to fill in these gaps, both in our

28:18

social safety nets, and then also to be

28:20

the sort of toggle switch where we can

28:22

increase or decrease their employment depending on the

28:24

economy's needs at any given moment in time.

28:28

On that note, you write in your book that other

28:30

countries have social safety nets. America

28:32

has women. And

28:34

your book is about all the

28:37

ways that women are conscripted into doing

28:39

that kind of work. You say that

28:41

trapping women into motherhood is key to

28:43

that conscription. How does that work? Yeah,

28:46

the DIY society like ours, one where

28:48

we expect people to manage risk on

28:50

their own, especially in the context of

28:53

gender myths that make it seem like women

28:55

are the ones who are only capable or

28:57

best capable of caring for young children. It

29:00

becomes very easy for them to be conscripted into

29:02

doing the unpaid labor at home of caring for

29:04

children. And then once they're caring for children, if

29:06

it comes easy to say, well, if she's already

29:08

at home, she can care for grandma too. You

29:11

describe it as exploitation. I mean, I imagine

29:13

there are also many people who would like

29:15

to stay home. Yeah. What do you

29:17

say to that? With my research, I

29:19

talked to one mom, for example, who's a low

29:21

income black single mom working in food service, who

29:23

after her son was born, she wasn't able to

29:26

take any paid time off. When the pandemic hit,

29:28

she found herself unemployed all of a sudden. And

29:30

this was the first time she'd ever gotten to

29:32

stay home with her son. And she talked about

29:35

how much of a joy it was to just

29:37

get to like teach him how to play Connect

29:39

Four and like watch videos with him. And I

29:41

think it speaks to the fact that we need

29:43

support for all of us to be able to

29:46

participate in this shared project of caregiving. And that

29:48

really the system is designed to kind

29:50

of force particularly low income women into

29:52

low wage jobs, even if they'd

29:54

rather be home with their families. Women hold 70%

29:57

of the lowest wage jobs in our economy. And

29:59

then... The same time to force them

30:01

in especially women who have husbands who

30:03

can support them financially to stay home

30:05

even if they may be rather be

30:07

working for pay. Because the social pressure

30:10

though, it's a system that minutes choice

30:12

for everyone who the so the United

30:14

States does have government assistance but your

30:16

book points out how sometimes using that

30:18

assistance or that safety nets can limit

30:20

low income. Families. And to

30:22

any us, we do have a social safety

30:24

net. It's just a threat. and and and

30:26

it's one that is wrapped in all sorts

30:28

of punitive restrictions designed to force people to

30:30

prove that they are deserving of support and

30:33

also to punish people for meeting not support

30:35

and so what that means in practice is

30:37

akin to things like our welfare program for

30:39

example in Indiana whereas where did a lot

30:41

of my research and maximum that a single

30:43

mom of to the qualify for for a

30:45

month of cash benefits are touching hundred eighty

30:47

eight dollars month to that's not enough money

30:50

to live on and on top of. That

30:52

they have mandatory work requirements so that even

30:54

if you're relying on welfare, you're required to

30:56

go out and find the first job that

30:58

is available to you even if it's low

31:00

paying. And then for every dollar that you

31:03

earn an income, your welfare benefits get produce.

31:05

Food. I want to me

31:08

to turn and really get and some of the cultural

31:10

miss that you say reinforce ideas. That we don't

31:12

need a safety nets. One of them is

31:14

that if you just make good choices, You

31:16

won't need public assistance or it's you will

31:18

be living in poverty. Which is

31:20

an idea that goes hand in hand

31:23

with what you describe as beats. Meritocracy

31:25

Met the idea that everyone who is

31:27

rates they deserve it, whereas. For people

31:29

just aren't trying hard enough. According to

31:32

Pew, more than seventy percent of American

31:34

adults believe most people will succeed if

31:36

they work hard Way more than a

31:39

country like France where the majority think

31:41

hard work is no guarantee of success.

31:43

How does that belief keep us from

31:46

one. To invest in a stronger safety

31:48

net. Source: An epic

31:50

this idea of meritocracy that if we just work

31:52

hard enough the will be able to get ahead.

31:54

Despite that sounds the challenges that the face. It's

31:57

really baked into the American either. but with research

31:59

tells us. That just because someone has made

32:01

those quote unquote good choices that in our

32:03

society it off and things like and wait

32:06

to have children actually get married and finish

32:08

school and had a high paying job or

32:10

majoring in engineering. Even with people make those

32:12

kinds of choices, it's not that those choices

32:15

are what's necessarily guarantee of success is that

32:17

the people who are in the physicians and

32:19

make them the choices are often people with

32:21

privilege to spare. Saw that in a hard

32:23

work doesn't matter at all, but it's only

32:26

one part of the equation. A problem though

32:28

is that when we tell living. You know,

32:30

just make these the choices and everything will turn out

32:32

fine. If leads us to feel like we're the problems

32:34

that there must be something wrong with us. Keeping

32:37

that in mind, how does this

32:39

meritocracy? Matthew describes. Square with America's

32:41

history of racism and the state or

32:43

city mess. Yeah, and I think the

32:45

Method Meritocracy plays a key. Role in

32:47

maintaining racial divisions and and racism in

32:49

our society. In. Terms. Of encouraging particularly

32:52

working class and middle class white American

32:54

to perceive themselves as morally superior to

32:56

those people who they perceive as worse

32:58

off than they are. In terms of

33:00

low income black Americans, buying into this

33:02

myth of meritocracy allows people to feel

33:04

like oh, because I don't need that

33:06

social safety net, I must be harder

33:08

working. I must be a better person.

33:10

You could imagine a world where people

33:12

who fall just about the line for

33:15

some of these programs medicaid in welfare

33:17

would instead say hey, let's expand these

33:19

programs This would benefit my family's. You

33:21

and people from systematically marginalized groups who

33:23

believes the myth of meritocracy actually have

33:25

worth of outcomes they have been a

33:27

worth the a vascular help because they

33:29

buy into these ideas and it causes

33:31

internal threats in the sense of seeing

33:33

themselves as the problem and blame themselves

33:35

for knocks. Been willing to work hard enough

33:37

for being able to achieve those successes. Compared

33:39

to People To Protect Business. Setting

33:42

You're. Describing around me of another day

33:44

make in your book the you discriminate

33:47

similar sessions. And that is the Mars

33:49

Venus met. in other words, the idea

33:51

that women. Are naturally suited

33:53

for. Here, work and

33:56

men are naturally suited for

33:58

people. Works out his. the

34:00

world, why might that assumption be wrong?

34:02

Yeah, and so a reason shows us

34:04

that really biology is not destiny. Even

34:07

some of the anthropological work around things

34:09

like hunter-gatherer societies has been recently debunked,

34:11

showing that women in many of these

34:13

hunter-gatherer societies actually play a

34:16

much more involved role in hunting. These kinds of myths

34:18

about, you know, men go out and hunt and women

34:20

stay home and tend to the fire and tend to

34:22

the children. That it's not really

34:24

as pat as it might seem if

34:26

we consider the anthropological evidence, the biological

34:28

evidence, the research there too shows that,

34:30

you know, men and women are socialized into

34:33

differences from a very, very early age. From

34:35

the time that young girls in particular are

34:37

old enough to hold a baby doll, they're

34:39

trained to hold these kinds of caregiving roles

34:41

in our society. And that means that young

34:43

boys, you know, often aren't given that same

34:45

kind of chance to develop their caregiving skills

34:47

and aren't given the sort of positive reinforcement

34:49

around those kinds of roles that girls are.

34:51

And so they don't get as good at

34:53

them. But at the same time, research shows

34:55

that once men and boys are given the

34:58

chance to learn to be good caregivers, they're

35:00

just as capable of it as women are and

35:02

can be highly effective in those roles and can

35:04

often enjoy those roles too. I want

35:07

to talk about how fathers and

35:09

men think about this Mars

35:11

Venus myth. In one study

35:13

that you conducted, you found that compared

35:15

to dads who do not

35:18

believe in the Mars Venus myth, dads

35:20

who believed it were more likely to

35:22

oppose safety net programs like guaranteed paid

35:24

family leave and free universal childcare. Even

35:27

if these dads knew they could have

35:30

more money because their wives could work

35:32

and they wouldn't have to pay for

35:34

childcare, they still opposed these policies. What

35:37

is it that these dads would lose out on if

35:39

they were to let go of this myth? If

35:41

dads were to let go of this myth, they

35:44

would lose the perks of patriarchy, which for them

35:46

means being able to pass the buck, being able

35:48

to rely on the women in their families to

35:50

pick up the flock so that they can focus

35:52

more of their energies on paid work. I talked

35:55

to one dad for example who I call Dennis.

35:57

He's in his 30s, he's white, he has a

35:59

bad life. degree, and he works in tech,

36:01

and he likes to think of himself as

36:03

fairly egalitarian. He talks about like, oh, I

36:05

don't believe that 1950s stuff when it comes

36:07

to gender. But when push came to

36:09

shove, when it came to his own family, he wasn't

36:12

willing to put his money where his methods in the

36:14

sense that when his oldest daughter was born, at the

36:17

time, Dennis's wife, Bethany, was working full time as a

36:19

social worker, and she was making about $30,000 a year.

36:23

And so between their two salaries, they could have

36:25

afforded to pay for full time

36:27

childcare for their daughter, but he decided that

36:29

it just wouldn't make sense financially for his

36:31

wife, Bethany, to still be working. And he talked

36:33

about it as like, she shouldn't have to spend

36:36

half of her paycheck spending care. And

36:38

so he was really treating this as only a trade off between

36:40

her income and with just a childcare

36:42

as opposed to recognizing that childcare is a

36:44

shared project for himself and for his wife.

36:47

And in the context, like once she was staying home

36:49

full time with their children, he realized

36:51

very quickly that this had perks for him too.

36:54

He talked about how he doesn't have to be

36:56

the one to take a day off from work to care

36:58

for the kids if there's a snow day. Bethany,

37:00

meanwhile, actually wanted to go back to the workforce,

37:02

but she felt pressured to stay home in part

37:05

because of her mom and Dennis's mom had done

37:07

for them. And in part because she wasn't seeing

37:09

that kind of support from Dennis. She didn't see

37:11

him stepping up. And so she was worried about,

37:13

you know, even if I do go back to

37:15

paid work, I might still be the default parents.

37:17

I might still be the one who has the

37:19

back advice. I remember reading

37:22

the book. She was doing so much to keep their family

37:24

afloat. And that reminded me of

37:26

another myth that you unpack in your

37:28

book about the super mom. Can

37:30

you explain what the super mom myth is? Sure.

37:33

So this is the idea that children

37:35

are under threat and that moms are

37:37

the only ones who can protect children

37:39

from threats to their wellbeing. There's

37:42

a sort of white evangelical Christian version,

37:44

which focuses on the moral threats to

37:46

children. And this is really driving

37:48

what we see in terms of our, you

37:50

know, anti critical race theory and for our

37:53

panic around policies supporting children who are non

37:55

binary or who are thinking of transitioning the

37:57

kind of fear mongering that we've seen around.

38:00

kids is very much targeted at

38:02

mom. I talk in the book

38:04

about a number of evangelical parenting

38:06

books that are very explicitly aimed

38:08

at encouraging mothers to see themselves

38:10

as the protectors of children to

38:12

help ensure their children's salvation. You

38:14

say that's also something that you

38:16

see with non-religious mothers

38:19

as well. Absolutely. And so

38:21

this is the kind of thing where it doesn't

38:23

have to be the same threat to get to

38:25

the same results. Even politically progressive-leaning moms can be

38:27

easily lured into feeling as

38:29

though they have to be the ones to

38:31

do everything because of threats to their children's

38:34

illness. For affluent, highly educated women, worries about

38:36

downward mobility can lead mothers to feel as

38:38

though they have to do an opportunity hoard,

38:40

as though they have to intensive mother their

38:42

children in ways that will prevent them from

38:45

not being at the top of their

38:47

class, or not getting into the elite college, or not getting

38:49

into those kinds of jobs that will

38:51

secure their futures down the line. You

38:55

also wrote that according to one of your studies,

38:57

mothers who believe it's best for kids to have

38:59

their mom at home are less

39:01

supportive than other mothers of policies like

39:03

free childcare and preschool for all, and

39:05

that those same mothers are

39:08

disproportionately inclined to say

39:10

that parents should make sure their

39:12

own children have the best chance

39:14

at being successful rather

39:16

than working to ensure that all

39:18

kids have an equal chance of success.

39:21

Exactly. And so all of these myths are

39:23

designed to keep us insular in our focus.

39:25

They're meant to get us to focus on

39:27

what we as individuals can do to improve

39:29

our own lives or our children's lives and

39:32

to sort of not see the need for

39:34

a stronger social safety net, or even to

39:36

see the stronger social safety net as a

39:38

threat to the kinds of privileges that we

39:40

might be able to achieve for our families

39:42

if we just work hard enough. What

39:44

would a path towards a better safety net

39:47

look like to you? We

39:49

Really have to reject the myths that have

39:51

helped to dilute and divide us. And One

39:53

way that we can think about doing that

39:55

is through what I talk about as a

39:57

Union of Care. We Know from research on

39:59

labor unions that when people... people are part

40:01

of the unions are more likely to have

40:03

to have a sense of linked faith with

40:06

other people who are part of that scene.

40:08

union regardless of their racial differences are class

40:10

differences because it allows them to see how

40:12

they can all benefit from certain policies are

40:14

from certain selected efforts that they taped. Foods

40:17

in your book. You often use

40:19

Scandinavian Social Safety Net Design as

40:21

an example, but. When. I

40:23

think about the United States and of

40:25

Societies are not. As

40:28

truly diverse as ours is and those

40:30

are also countries that are not as

40:32

big as ours is your given America's

40:34

history with racism and given his size,

40:36

I just feel like that kind of

40:39

social structure would be much harder to

40:41

build in the United States when you

40:43

think about that. Yeah, and I think

40:45

that does certainly valid concerns. I think

40:47

one thing to keep in mind as

40:49

that we've actually already done this and

40:52

we've shown that it can work here.

40:54

We have large scale social safety net

40:56

programs like Medicare and Social Security. And

40:58

we've proven that they can work effectively. The

41:01

for Medicare and Social Security were put

41:03

into place poverty that a common problem

41:05

among elderly Americans and today because of those

41:07

programs that kinds of risks are much

41:09

lower and they were before. These programs their

41:11

strongly supported by public opinion and it

41:13

gets to decide you that once we

41:15

have these programs in place, the the com

41:18

highly popular even if they're fairly costly.

41:20

So think if we are able and willing

41:22

to see those larger social structures to

41:24

reject those myths and then they get

41:26

better recognize how a stronger. Social Safety net

41:28

would support all of us. Well.

41:32

Doctor Clark or has been great. To

41:34

talk to the I've learned so much reading your book

41:36

and from this conversation. Thank you! Thank you so much

41:38

for having the It's been a pleasure out of you. Thanks.

41:41

Again to Doctor Jessica color. Her

41:43

book is called Holding It Together

41:45

How Women became. Americans social safety

41:47

nets. It's out on June fourth.

41:56

This. Episode of it's been a Minute was produced

41:58

by. Bernard would. Alexis Williams,

42:01

Liam McBain, Corey Antonio Rose.

42:04

This episode was edited by

42:06

Jessica Placzak. Engineering support came

42:08

from Tiffany Vera Castro. We

42:10

are fact checking help from

42:12

Nicolette Kahn. Our

42:14

executive producer is Verilynn Williams.

42:17

Our VP of programming is Yolanda

42:19

Sangwenni. All right, that's all for

42:21

this episode of It's Been A Minute from NPR.

42:24

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