0:03

You're listening to, it's been a minute from NPR.

0:06

I'm Britney Loose. And a heads

0:08

up to listeners, in the first part of

0:10

today's episode, we'll be talking explicitly

0:13

about sex and kink. Happy

0:16

Valentine's Day, everyone. Tonight,

0:19

I'll probably split a heart shaped

0:21

pizza with my husband. I'm

0:24

not too big on Valentine's Day, but

0:26

don't get it twisted. I do

0:28

love romance. And

0:31

not just for February, I like

0:33

to get swept away by passion three

0:36

hundred and sixty five days out of

0:38

the

0:38

year. And there are a

0:40

lot of people who feel the same

0:43

way. I'm reading a

0:45

hundred books, a hundred romance books,

0:48

a year. I

0:50

read like six this week alone. might

0:52

start something as late as ten o'clock at night

0:55

when I get in a

0:55

bit, and then three thirty in the

0:57

morning. I'm like, okay, that was great and

0:59

then I go to sleep. That's how

1:01

I get through though. That's like

1:05

Today on the show, we are talking

1:07

about romance novels. And

1:09

we wanna know, do our wildest

1:12

literary fantasies have any bearing

1:14

on the romance we want in our real

1:16

lives? Later on, we'll hear

1:18

from one of my all time favorite

1:21

romance and erotic writers. But first,

1:23

we hear from the genre's dedicated readers

1:26

on what these fantasies unlocked and

1:29

the passages that make them blush.

1:32

So what hot pages can

1:35

you find between their covers?

1:38

Recently, I definitely got into monster

1:41

romance's, the creative activity that some

1:43

of these authors have with the anatomy

1:45

of these monsters is just top

1:47

notch. The granite guardrail takes

1:49

up nearly half of the room. With

1:52

large curved horns that

1:54

sprout like from a RAM, then

1:57

the wing moves. I

2:00

scream. I love

2:02

the stuck in the cabin in the winter

2:04

with no power, especially if there's like a

2:06

winter storm or the

2:08

like, a, like, a flood. Any kind of, like,

2:10

natural disaster that's happening? You know, there's a flood?

2:12

Yep. Girl. Okay.

2:16

Okay. I'll get with with

2:18

I love a one bed trope. I

2:21

love force proximity. I

2:23

love marriage of Kimmy Yans. I love

2:25

fake dating. I'm like really

2:27

big in the sci fi ones. One of the books was

2:29

a gay couple and one of them was a Kraken. And

2:33

I didn't want that to unlock something in

2:35

me. Unfortunately, it did. Before

2:38

I knew it was happening, Cyrus was

2:40

carrying me. The muscular lengths

2:42

of his tentacles supporting our combined

2:44

weight, and shuffling us towards

2:46

the stall without breaking our kiss. knew

2:49

he was strong, but I didn't think he was that

2:50

strong. You like that Roland's,

2:53

he asked, as his tentacle

2:55

slammed the door to the shower stall open,

2:57

and we've someone inside. While

3:00

our dear readers might love to escape

3:02

into the fantasy of sexy squids,

3:05

we asked if all their fantasies might

3:07

translate off the pages. Like,

3:10

do they really want romance in the middle

3:12

of a flood

3:13

or an octopod lever or

3:16

that big strong bow In

3:18

real life, like protective

3:20

alpha boyfriend, like bordering

3:23

on controlling in romances, If

3:25

someone tried to do that to me personally,

3:28

I'd freak out. But in the

3:29

books, I won't thought I'd

3:30

eat that up. There are some things like a

3:32

y choose romance. Like, polymery. I

3:34

would never be able to do that. My husband

3:37

is it for me, and I don't think I could

3:39

handle more than one person.

3:41

Like the blood play thing. I really

3:43

like that. Probably not the guy would ever

3:45

do in your real life, but this

3:47

is like cool to read on paper.

3:50

These stories provide a pleasurable window

3:52

into a life, many readers have no

3:54

interest in leading. Through these vicarious

3:57

romps, romance readers are cultivating an

3:59

intersexual life. That has nothing to

4:01

do with their partners, which can be empowering.

4:04

But according to my good

4:05

friend, romance connoisseur writer

4:08

and podcaster Nicole Perkins, There

4:10

could be another reason romance and erotic

4:12

readers find these stories so

4:15

appealing. So I think a lot

4:17

of reasons people turn to

4:20

romance and erotica is to get what they're

4:22

not necessarily getting in real life

4:24

or what they're not allowed to get in real life.

4:27

Sometimes they might not get what they're looking for

4:29

because finding the right person or

4:31

people to share intimacy with is

4:33

way

4:34

harder. As an actual person, than

4:36

it is for book characters. As

4:39

someone who is also very much plus size,

4:41

it's almost like unthinkable to think that

4:44

someone would like me because I have issues with my own

4:46

body, but a monster could love

4:48

me for who I am. I don't know if

4:50

any man that I think is attractive would

4:52

find me attractive. Smut a

4:54

monster, if he found me

4:56

attractive or he found my personality

4:58

likable, then we could fall for each

5:00

other. I love alien

5:03

mate one. There's like an element of like,

5:06

you can't abandon this person because you're

5:08

soul mates. And, like, you will you

5:10

are have such a vested interest in each other

5:12

because you're a science soul mate, something like

5:14

you'll work through things together. And

5:16

I think that, like, that

5:18

for me is for a particularly, like, pretty

5:21

enticing romance just because

5:23

of, like, the dating, the queer gaming

5:25

scene in city as garbage. I've talked about it in

5:27

therapy being, like, it's

5:29

pretty hard to, like, be

5:33

doing casual online dating.

5:35

Like, go get, like, coffee with someone who's

5:37

a stranger and be

5:38

like, how many siblings do you

5:40

have? Like, at the kind of doing this, like, really, like,

5:42

my numbing, boring, time

5:45

consuming thing where you're kind of like consistently

5:48

rejected.

5:50

One of our readers, Kimiya, She's

5:52

not necessarily looking for person to share

5:54

her interest with. I loved all

5:56

romance books, so maybe with

5:58

forbidden tropes, mafia romance,

6:02

taboo books. So the

6:04

darker it is, the more I enjoy

6:06

it. I would say ninety percent

6:08

of the things that I read in especially

6:11

doll formats, aren't things

6:13

that I would even tolerate

6:15

in real life let alone be attracted to.

6:18

But Dark Romance, a genre, which

6:20

often features non consensual fantasies,

6:22

gives her a safe place to explore. They

6:25

have been sexually assaulted in my life,

6:27

but it has helped me to deal

6:29

with those events because I

6:31

get to read about something similar happening

6:33

to a book character, but at the end of it,

6:35

they find the light. They find something good

6:38

from it. To

6:41

get that happy ending in fiction at

6:43

least can be very comforting. You

6:45

can experience these things internally

6:47

because reading everything is in your head.

6:50

You can make it as big as you want or as small

6:52

as you want. No one else is with you.

6:54

You don't have to put up a persona.

6:56

You don't have to pretend at all. It gives

6:58

us a a space

7:01

to look up

7:02

things, learn things, experience

7:05

them without having to actually put ourselves

7:07

out there. But even though these

7:09

readers are by themselves in

7:10

the safety of fantasy, reading

7:12

these books has helped them express themselves

7:15

out in the world. I think one of the

7:17

most valuable things that romance gave me was

7:19

like scripts to actually read

7:21

about, you know, different here's one way to

7:23

have this conversation. Here's another way to have this conversation.

7:26

It's like you know you should talk about it, but you don't

7:28

necessarily know how birth control,

7:30

consent, how

7:33

to say, I I don't like this particular

7:35

thing, but it's not like I don't like you.

7:38

I've sort of found this

7:39

new, like, confidence. It's

7:41

not bad to want to ask for a

7:44

little bit more. Before these books,

7:46

you could not talk about sex to me,

7:48

but not that I've read it almost

7:51

art every day. I'm telling

7:53

him, like, I read this book yesterday and

7:55

he did this to her and

7:58

you gotta read this. But

8:00

most importantly, they're just a good

8:02

time. One of the most important things

8:04

to me with romance novels is that they're fun

8:07

and they make me happy. They

8:09

are fun, and they make me

8:11

happy too. Coming up,

8:13

I talk to one of my favorite romance

8:15

authors about how she approaches her

8:17

books. Stick around.

8:21

Support for this podcast and the following message

8:24

come from Dignity Memorial. Celebrating

8:26

each life with compassion and attention

8:28

to detail that is second to none. They'll

8:31

help you plan a life celebration now,

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so your family doesn't have to later.

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information, visit dignity Memorial

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dot com.

8:41

Out of every romance author I've

8:43

ever read, there is one that

8:46

I've been dying to talk to. Rebecca

8:48

Weatherspoon. She's a bestselling romance

8:51

author who's written over twenty titles.

8:53

Working within a range of romance

8:55

subgenres. And when I say she's

8:57

good, she is good.

9:01

He pulled away his eyes struggling

9:03

to open. When he could finally

9:05

focus on Evie's face, he

9:07

reached up and lightly brushed her cheek.

9:10

They were both breathing heavy. And

9:13

Zach had a feeling neither of them

9:15

wanted this to be a one off. This

9:17

was only a preview. Of things

9:19

to come. And Nicole is actually

9:21

the one who introduced me to Rebecca's

9:23

books. Rebecca wrote one of Nicole's

9:25

favorite scenes ever. Even

9:28

if the scene wasn't white her bag in

9:30

real life. The name of this particular

9:32

book is called Haven. Yes.

9:34

Have you read

9:35

it? Pass. I red haven.

9:37

That was a good one. That was a good

9:40

one. Yes. And it's my favorite

9:42

one. Okay. So it was, like, at one point either

9:45

she's tied up or there's

9:47

a gag in her mouth and there's

9:50

drool that happens. Mhmm.

9:53

I am not into drool

9:56

during sexy time. I

9:58

am not into spits

10:01

you know, like aggressive spitting, like

10:03

a pateaui kinda spit situation.

10:05

You don't want any of that? I don't want any of

10:07

that. But the way Rebecca wrote

10:09

it, I was just like, oh, am I turned

10:11

on by this? Because this is outside of my

10:14

usual situation

10:16

here, but the way that it

10:18

was written the way that Rebecca wrote

10:20

it was just fantastic, and I

10:22

have never forgotten it. It's

10:24

because Rebecca has such a way of

10:27

painting the scene, anybody

10:29

that can, like, take me outside of my comfort zone

10:31

and still make me be intrigued by

10:33

it. Mhmm. It's just a star

10:35

in my mind. So we asked

10:37

Rebecca, how she does? What

10:40

she does? For readers like Nicole,

10:43

and me.

10:45

Rebecca, welcome to it's been a minute. It's so great

10:47

to have you. Hi. Thank you for having me.

10:49

I'm just curious, what percentage of the things

10:51

you write about are you

10:54

actually into?

10:56

When I write, I fully try

10:58

to inhabit those

11:01

characters. Right? All of my characters have like

11:03

a little bit of me in them, but I'm they're not

11:05

me. There's stuff that I'm more like

11:08

Oh, I'm fine with this. So it's not necessarily

11:10

that I'm like into it per se, but

11:12

it's more stuff that's like doesn't

11:14

cross my hard limits of like No.

11:17

No. No. I don't like this. If that makes

11:19

sense. Like, I try to just include stuff that,

11:21

like, at the most, like, I would

11:23

also be okay with and enjoy reading

11:26

And then I go based on who

11:28

that character is. Speaking of

11:30

Haven, like, I know a lot of people read that. They

11:32

loved it. And they're like, oh, Shepard

11:34

is like such a great hero. Like, in real life, I would

11:36

murder Shepard. Him and I would knock it along. So it's

11:39

like, he is not he

11:41

is not my go to hero. Like, I loved him

11:43

in theory, but him and I would stab each

11:45

other, we would not get along at all.

11:47

So that in and of itself is kind of

11:49

like, this is not the kind of man that I would

11:51

date in real life either. I

11:54

I crafted that man for the

11:56

heroine of

11:56

Claudia, if that makes sense. It does

11:58

make sense. Is it your goal in

12:01

your writing to introduce new fantasies

12:03

to people that they didn't

12:05

know they liked

12:07

or thought they didn't like? Yeah.

12:09

I think because I want

12:12

people to when

12:14

they're reading it, feel like they're reading something

12:16

fresh for sure. I

12:18

want people to sometimes be like, oh,

12:20

I haven't thought of doing that. Oh, I

12:22

can do that in a chair. Oh, like,

12:26

And I also too wanna make sure that

12:28

when I'm writing books, that I'm writing

12:31

scenes that are safe in all

12:33

kinds of ways. Right? So if it's

12:35

really explicit, BDSM, like, okay, we're

12:37

talking about safe words, we're talking about

12:39

hard limits, and then we're

12:42

using protection, we're washing

12:44

our hands. And I'm sneaking safe sex

12:46

in there. I'm gonna get a hit there. So,

12:48

yeah, I try to make sure stuff is fresh, and I try

12:50

to make sure that stuff is safe because

12:52

I think that's also when

12:55

you feel safe in sexual

12:56

situations, those are the best ways to

12:58

enjoy them and feel cared for as well.

13:03

That that makes me think about the readers that

13:05

we've spoken to, plenty of

13:07

readers that we talked to. Have said

13:09

that there's a lot that they like

13:11

to read and that they want no part of in real

13:13

life. But there are also

13:15

fantasies that speak

13:17

to things that they feel like they're

13:19

missing in their like real

13:22

life relationships. How do

13:24

you balance the push and pull between

13:26

reality and fantasy in your books.

13:28

Sure. Well, so the

13:31

reality part is kind of

13:33

like reality is like a weird word

13:35

because I think when you're talking about fiction,

13:38

you know what's not real. You know what I'm saying? Like,

13:40

all readers and writers, we have a concept

13:42

of, like, what feels realistic within the context

13:44

of the story. And I think it just has to,

13:46

like, do the job of, like, entertaining

13:49

you. And sometimes that does involve

13:51

like things you would wanna do or

13:53

things you wouldn't wanna do. I'm a

13:55

big paranormal gal. I love paranormal

13:58

romance. I love shifter romance.

14:00

I love werewolves. All of that. You are

14:02

not gonna catch me dead in the woods. It's not happening.

14:04

I do not. I hate camping. I hate

14:07

I am not an outdoorsy girl. Right?

14:09

I I am a hotel broad that

14:12

full fully, but I will read

14:14

about a woman getting

14:16

stranded in, and then she's rescued

14:18

by a bunch of werewolves who like living the woods.

14:21

Event Hines has this great series

14:23

It's a bear shifter community in North

14:26

in Northern California. And it's

14:28

so much fun, but they're in the woods

14:30

like that whole book and I was like, Not

14:32

like I would have. Like, I'm just I

14:34

am not a would do gal. So I think that's,

14:37

like, that is actually the beauty of

14:39

Roman says entertainment is, like,

14:42

you can take a minute to

14:44

read something that is, like,

14:46

either not realistic or something that you

14:48

don't wanna do in real life, but you can enjoy

14:51

it in the safety

14:52

of, like, the covers of a book. You know what mean?

14:55

Mhmm. I'm glad you put the bare shifter

14:57

community on my radar. That was something I

14:59

had not been thinking

15:00

about, and now I am I appreciate

15:03

that. The black indy girls are really killing

15:05

it with the paranormal romance. They've been doing

15:07

it this whole time. If there's some really good stuff

15:09

out

15:09

there. Thank you for the tip. appreciate that. Thank

15:11

you for the tip. Is there anything else

15:14

that, you know, that we didn't ask about

15:16

that you wanna shout out or talk about?

15:19

Just for your listeners who are not romance

15:22

people. I think it's important to remember

15:25

romance is like a beautiful thing. And

15:27

I think sometimes people discredit

15:30

romance novels for a lot of reasons

15:33

for a lot of reasons. But III remember

15:35

I was talking to someone at a party and they were

15:38

asking me about writing

15:40

romance and, you know, being kind of condescending.

15:42

And I asked him, I was like, okay, I was like,

15:45

where is Star Wars without Love? If

15:48

we take all even the, like,

15:50

off screen romance out of Star

15:52

Wars, do Luke and Leia

15:54

even exist? Right? Do

15:56

we get iconic moments with

15:59

Han and Leia? No. If you take

16:01

all that out, it completely changes that

16:03

whole universe. Right? I

16:05

think about Lord of the Rings. It's brotherly

16:08

love. But as

16:10

someone who's actually not a big high fantasy

16:13

girl, I remember when my dad took

16:15

me to see Lord of the Rings and absolutely

16:18

falling in love with Sam in Frodo because

16:20

that that friendship was so full

16:22

of love That was that was just like

16:25

peak familial love. Right? This is my

16:27

friend. I'm literally gonna follow this man in the

16:29

hands of the earth. And I think

16:31

that when we look at a genre

16:34

that decides to center that

16:36

love, that's like a beautiful thing.

16:39

And I think that if

16:41

more people maybe were

16:44

taking couple minutes out of their

16:46

day to refocus and

16:48

rethink about that love. World

16:50

might be like a lot better place.

16:53

That's a really beautiful thought.

16:57

Rebecca, thank you so much. Thank you so much

16:59

for sharing that with me, and thank you so much for

17:01

joining me on the show

17:02

today. This was a fantastic conversation.

17:05

Thank

17:05

you. I had a great time. Thanks

17:07

again to romance writer Rebecca Weatherspoon.

17:10

You can find her fantastic novels

17:13

anywhere you buy your books. And

17:15

thanks to all the romance readers you heard

17:17

earlier, writer and podcaster Nicole

17:19

Perkins, Leah Koch, co owner

17:21

of the Rip bottest bookstore in Culver City,

17:24

California. West TikTok

17:26

users SmartBooks are life, Lydia,

17:29

Kimiya, and winter. Coming

17:32

up, Belle Hook's lasting

17:34

legacy on love. Stay

17:36

with us.

17:42

You're listening to it's been a minute from

17:44

NPR. I'm Britney Loops. Next,

17:48

we're talking love.

17:50

All about love. That's

17:53

the title of an extremely popular

17:55

book. One that's never gone out

17:57

of print and has had more than seven

17:59

hundred sixty five editions.

18:02

And it's by one of the greats.

18:05

Belle Hooks. She was a

18:07

prolific writer, sharp cultural

18:09

critic, distinguished professor, and

18:12

game changer for the way we think about

18:14

building healthy relationships. Standing

18:17

before black children who

18:20

tell me there is no love. In

18:22

clear, flat dispassionate

18:25

voices. I confront

18:27

our collective failure as a nation,

18:30

as African Americans, to

18:32

create a world where we can all know

18:34

love. She graced

18:36

Time magazine's list of one hundred

18:39

women of the year in twenty twenty. In

18:41

part for the way she's inspired generations

18:43

of feminist activists, bankers,

18:46

and

18:46

scholars, like doctor Gail

18:48

e Greenly, They stayed on judge book

18:50

by his cover, but I saw the cover, saw

18:53

the color, saw the ink, and

18:55

saw her name in lower case, and it

18:58

just caught my eye. So I picked it up,

19:00

I spent my own money, and

19:02

I read that book from cover

19:04

to cover in a very short

19:06

time. It was the first book I read for pleasure

19:09

on my own. In life,

19:11

in life. Doctor Greenlee

19:13

is a black feminist legacy keeper

19:15

and teacher's scholar in residence at the Belle

19:18

Hook Center in Baria, Kentucky. Where

19:20

Belle spent some of her last years in academia.

19:23

We talk Belle's legacy, her influence

19:26

on the culture, and the lessons she

19:28

left for us.

19:34

Welcome to it's been a minute. It's such a pleasure to

19:36

have you.

19:36

Thank you so much for having me, for inviting

19:38

me. Honestly, it's our privilege. It's

19:40

absolutely our privilege. So I think

19:42

it'd be nice to start

19:45

with the Belle Hook's book

19:47

all about love and its

19:49

enduring power. But

19:51

for listeners who may not have read the book

19:54

yet, What are some of the biggest

19:56

lessons from all about

19:58

love? All about love is definitely

20:01

one where she's looking at all iterations

20:03

of love. Love between parents

20:06

and children, love between partners,

20:09

love between friends, she talked

20:11

about love being an action

20:13

that you have to show and

20:15

demonstrate and live out your love

20:18

and not just speak it. You can say anything. what

20:20

do you do? I remember sitting with

20:22

her once, and we were talking about ideas

20:25

of care and affection, and

20:27

she said, but care is not love. Is just

20:29

one ingredient of love. Describing

20:32

love with metaphor of a cake and you

20:34

have all of these ingredients and you need all

20:36

of those elements in order to really

20:39

say that you love someone or that you have

20:41

love in your life. And care was one of

20:43

those respect. I think was another affection.

20:46

It was a multilayered kick.

20:48

Multiple ingredients that you have to mix

20:50

into the pot. I

20:52

wonder, what specifically from all

20:55

about love? Change the way that

20:57

you love or approach love?

21:00

Oh my goodness. I actually was

21:02

sitting in the Bauchner center yesterday.

21:05

And we have these columns with some

21:07

quotes from Bell around the

21:09

center. And there's one quote that

21:11

comes from all about love where she's says

21:14

there is no justice without love.

21:16

There is no love without justice. And so

21:18

to me, that really epitomizes her

21:21

ideas about love. If

21:23

we care deeply about justice, if we care

21:25

deeply about anti racism, about gender

21:28

equity, all of those, it has

21:30

to be undergirded with a love ethic.

21:32

You know, something that that that

21:34

strikes me in reading Belle Hooks, I mean, especially

21:37

that book, is the confidence

21:39

that she had to write from her

21:41

experiences. Mhmm. I think about

21:44

how much she shared and all about love

21:46

about her upbringing with her family

21:48

and and how she used

21:50

that as an example to teach us about the difference

21:52

between being loved and being

21:54

cared for. She shared a

21:56

lot about her romantic relationships about

21:59

the desire for a romantic relationship

22:02

and how that wasn't something she had at

22:04

that point in her life. I love

22:06

the way that she used the lessons

22:08

that she gleaned from her life experiences as

22:11

instructive to her readers. That

22:13

was so impressive, but especially at

22:16

that time, like, To be

22:18

a black woman, to put the stake in the ground,

22:20

and declare yourself the expert on

22:22

love, that's huge.

22:24

Exactly. The expert on love

22:26

based upon your life experience. Your

22:29

in life experience as a black woman. Right?

22:31

Mhmm. She did multiple interviews where she commented

22:34

on the state of love in black communities

22:36

and how there seems to be an absence of that

22:38

conversation. Particularly in pop

22:40

culture, also among black

22:42

youth. I was recently revisiting an

22:44

interview that she did with local that

22:47

came out in ninety seven, and

22:49

she even remarked to love Kim

22:51

that, you know, I don't really see young

22:54

people talking about love. So

22:56

for her to say yes, she is the expert

22:58

on love. don't know if she would say she would, you know,

23:00

that she has something important to say

23:02

-- Yes. -- about love based upon her

23:04

experience as a black woman from

23:07

rural Kentucky. Right?

23:09

And that we need to listen to it.

23:11

That in and of itself is just

23:13

amazing. You made it very

23:15

plain that, you know, you too knew each other in

23:17

real life. And, you know, her book

23:20

is the first book you ever read

23:22

in your life for

23:22

pleasure. How did you unveil

23:25

meet? I went

23:27

to graduate school at Clark Atlanta

23:29

University in Atlanta Georgia. I was in

23:31

the kind of women's studies program. And I read

23:34

everything that she wrote everything. I

23:36

wrote my master's thesis on her about

23:38

her work as a kind of healing, literature.

23:41

She came to speak at Karen's books,

23:43

which is one of the oldest famous

23:45

bookstores in the US South. And

23:48

I brought my master's

23:50

thesis with me. I printed it out,

23:52

put it in a white three ring notebook.

23:56

I don't know if it was arrogant or if

23:58

it was just, you know, just really

24:00

being naive and excited that I was gonna

24:02

finally meet her. Well, I gave a copy to someone

24:04

at the bookstore and said, Could you please pass

24:06

this on to her? And I went to her talk

24:08

that night, and at the end of the

24:10

conversation she signed books as most

24:13

authors do. And when I walked up to

24:15

the front and had my name on a posted

24:17

note, she looked down and she recognized it.

24:19

Wow. And she she said you're a good writer.

24:21

And I was just Florida.

24:24

Absolutely Florida. But I

24:26

did not actually personally come in contact

24:28

with her until twenty nine teen when

24:30

I came here to Baria College -- Wow. -- as

24:32

a visiting professor of African American

24:35

literature. She was in some

24:37

senses, I think trying to replicate that

24:39

idea of her circles that

24:41

she wrote about in sisters of the yam.

24:43

Mhmm. And so there were several of

24:45

us that gathered at her home really

24:48

to talk about spirituality. And

24:50

love. Yeah. Yeah.

24:53

But from that, I was able

24:55

to come and continue to visit her

24:58

She always wanted to know my business,

25:00

you know, are you dating anyone?

25:02

Who are you seeing? She was constantly talking

25:04

about

25:05

love. The Belle Hook's book

25:07

that affected me most deeply with sisters

25:09

of the game, which I first read in

25:11

just twenty nineteen, twenty six

25:13

years after its publication. That book

25:15

came into my life at the exact right time and

25:17

it blew my mind. Then,

25:20

so many years after its initial publication,

25:23

even after many of the book's ideas had already

25:25

been accepted by many people and

25:28

incorporated into now what,

25:30

you know, you've mentioned as a

25:32

mainstreaming discussion

25:35

about black women's self recovery

25:37

and wellness. How did

25:39

it feel to receive Belle's

25:42

books in their time?

25:45

When the ideas that she was putting

25:47

out people weren't even prepared for

25:49

them. What was that like? That's

25:51

an interesting question. She was

25:53

so prolific that, you know, it was nothing for

25:55

a book to come out. Almost every single

25:57

year. And she

26:00

got a lot of flack. You know?

26:02

Some people just didn't wanna hear what she

26:04

had to say. There were critics,

26:06

men and women, black

26:08

and white, and some

26:10

people were very critical of her

26:13

autobiographical bent

26:16

in her writing. She went to places that

26:18

you would read and think, oh my goodness. She's

26:20

putting this out. You know, when

26:22

oftentimes the black communities were told, don't put

26:24

your your laundry out, right, in the street

26:26

for other people to see. I was just

26:29

shocked by how bold she was

26:31

and how honest she was. She was just

26:33

a truth teller in every respect

26:35

that she was fearless in it, which

26:38

I just admired immensely.

26:41

One of my producers, Corey Antonio, first

26:43

came to Bell Hooks through her lectures.

26:46

He's also talked about how great she was at conversations,

26:49

like her conversation with Luverne Cox. At

26:51

the new school back in twenty fourteen, She

26:54

and Laverne really got into

26:56

it regarding the differences in

26:58

how some cis and some trans women think

27:01

about feminine gender

27:02

performance. I think that it's important

27:04

to to know that all trans women are

27:06

not embracing this, that this trans

27:08

woman

27:09

does, and this trans woman deals even

27:11

powered by a And

27:14

you could see that Bell Hooks was really listening

27:16

to Laverne Cox. And then

27:18

Bell came to a new understanding through

27:21

listening. What I hear

27:24

are two things in that not that

27:27

you wish to perpetuate the patriarchy,

27:29

but that the desire to be

27:31

seen, to be visible, I

27:33

think, is is is

27:35

a desire that we have to recognize

27:39

And we have to continually critique

27:42

That willingness to learn in public

27:45

not learning in a performative way, like,

27:47

really listen and paying attention. It's

27:51

it's just something that that

27:53

is hard to come by, I would say, in public

27:55

life right now. It's such

27:58

a symptom of contemporary life that we want

28:00

to rush to understanding or at least

28:02

seeming like we understand something rather

28:05

than to deeply

28:06

learn. I've seen many of those new school

28:09

conversations, and you're right. There

28:11

were ways in which she could disagree

28:13

deeply. And would

28:15

interject and would

28:18

speaker minds, say our peace,

28:20

but at the same time, would very intently

28:23

listen and you could see that in her face,

28:25

you know, thank goodness for video. We can actually

28:27

see her her physical effect

28:29

and how she was really tuned

28:31

in and zeroed in to

28:33

what her conversation partner had

28:35

to say. I think she just believed

28:37

deeply in talking,

28:40

can we talk through our differences? If

28:43

Belle was still around, what kind

28:45

of conversations do you think that she'd be

28:47

having? I

28:51

do wonder about

28:54

and I'm tired of thinking about it, but I

28:57

do wonder what her commentary would have been

28:59

about the whole Will Smith Chris Rock

29:01

situation. Oh,

29:06

wow. Wow.

29:08

Because she has written so much

29:10

about masculinity. Not

29:12

only be real cool, but then also

29:14

the will to change -- Right. -- on men

29:17

in masculinity. I wonder what she would

29:19

have to say about that. It seems

29:21

as very attuned to the

29:23

ways in which patriarchy really

29:26

restricts ideas of what

29:28

it means to be a man. You have

29:30

very limited script, if you will, social

29:33

script, right, of what you can

29:35

say what you can do, how

29:37

you should walk through the world, and

29:39

oftentimes is hyper masculine, is

29:41

based upon showing force.

29:44

Right? And being domineering.

29:46

And so I think that she would see that

29:48

kind of script playing out

29:50

in what we saw between Will

29:52

and Chris Rock. I wonder about that

29:55

particular incident also because

29:57

she interviewed Jada. And later

29:59

on, Jada actually brought Willow

30:01

to meet her I don't know where they were, they were

30:03

in New York, what have you. So there was some

30:05

sort of continued contact between

30:08

the two, not that she needed that to

30:10

come in on any because she would comment on

30:12

anything and everything that she had an opinion

30:14

opinion

30:15

on, I remember specifically

30:17

when lemonade came out, she wrote critique that

30:20

was published in the Guardian and

30:22

she tore Beyonce up

30:25

and called her a terrorist event

30:28

you know, it said that she was concerned about

30:32

young black girls, but then if you revisit

30:34

her interview with little Kim.

30:36

And look, Kim said, you know, some people are saying

30:39

that I'm like, the downfall of

30:42

women's liberation, Bell said,

30:44

I don't see that. She she told

30:46

her I didn't believe that. I see

30:48

you as someone who's, you know, taking

30:51

control of their sexuality and

30:53

their pleasure. And so I really

30:55

wonder where she would fall at

30:58

this day and age because she

31:00

passed. I think she was sixty nine, almost

31:03

seventy. At the time of her death,

31:05

and people do change. But at the same

31:07

time, she was so adamant

31:10

about women being in control of

31:12

their bodies. I'm thinking specifically about reproductive

31:15

rights, reproductive justice, but also

31:17

in control of sexuality. So I wonder

31:19

what she would have to say about the circulation

31:22

of those kinda images --

31:23

Mhmm. -- and what artists today

31:25

are doing. Mhmm. I mean, that's

31:27

something I wish that I could hear myself.

31:30

Where do you see Belle Hook's influence

31:32

in the world

31:33

today? I feel like that could be a big question,

31:35

but where do you see it?

31:38

I feel like I see it everywhere.

31:41

Again, the the emphasis on

31:44

black joy I think about

31:46

how much she wrote and was insistent

31:49

on really cultivating love in

31:52

our community for one another, and

31:55

also individually for ourselves.

31:59

Without condition, without

32:02

you know, succumbing to outside pressures

32:04

of who you are supposed to be, but just

32:06

knowing your worth and who you are yourself. So

32:08

when I see that circulating on

32:10

social media, when I see

32:13

writers, black woman writers in

32:15

particular who are posting

32:17

healing

32:18

retreats, I think about

32:20

systems of the yam, and that to

32:22

me is a direct tie or connection

32:24

to Bell and her work. It makes me

32:26

think about how in

32:29

the wake of the murder of George Floyd,

32:32

you noticed, we all noticed a big spike

32:35

of interest in Bell Hook's work.

32:38

What do you think it was about that time

32:40

that drew people to Bell Hook's?

32:44

We as a people as

32:46

black people needed

32:48

a I don't wanna get emotional,

32:50

but I'm feeling it. I I

32:53

think we needed a soft place to

32:55

land that

32:57

we needed someone who

32:59

could help us make sense of this madness.

33:02

This violence that has

33:05

been perpetrated against our

33:07

community. Someone who understood the

33:10

depth of our grief who

33:12

could give us a political analysis

33:15

also to hold us and let us know

33:17

that, you know, this is not

33:19

us. This is what we're

33:21

fighting against, but that

33:24

you hold value, that you hold work,

33:26

that you are loved, You know,

33:29

she loved black

33:30

people. She loved people, but she

33:32

loved black people. And

33:34

she really wanted us to

33:36

truly be free from

33:38

violence, from domination in

33:41

all of its forms. Why

33:43

do you think people

33:45

have always turned to her? She

33:48

was blunt and

33:51

she was a truth teller and

33:54

she wrote so that everybody could understand

33:56

Now, you know, she was a theorist. No

33:58

doubt.

33:59

Yes. You know, she wrote her PSD

34:01

dissertation on Tony Morrison. I haven't

34:03

read it. We have it here

34:06

in the college, in the archives amongst

34:08

her papers, and it's thick. You

34:10

know, she wasn't intellectual and she could

34:13

do that theory. Speak, right,

34:15

with the best of them. But for the most

34:17

part, she was so committed to

34:19

her work being accessible to

34:22

the people that she came from, that

34:24

she grew up with. So she's talking

34:26

about folk in Kentucky, folk in

34:28

Appalachia, rural black folk

34:31

she wanted to remain connected to her roots.

34:33

And so I think with that kind of intention,

34:36

it becomes an invitation for everyone.

34:40

Dr. Greenley, thank you so, so, so

34:42

much for taking the time to share

34:44

your memories and and

34:47

to talk with us today. This was Amazing.

34:50

It's so right on

34:51

time, I think. For me and also for our listeners.

34:53

So thank you. Well,

34:54

thank you so much. For allowing me to

34:57

share a little bit of my love for

34:59

for Belle and her work in

35:01

Ottawa, Valentine's Day. That

35:04

was my conversation with doctor Gail

35:06

e Greenlee, teacher's scholar in residence

35:08

at the Belle Hook Center in Baria, Kentucky.

35:11

This episode of its been a minute was produced

35:13

by

35:14

Liam McBaine.

35:15

Corey Antonio Rose.

35:16

Our editor is

35:18

Jessica Plajac. Our intern

35:20

is Jamal Michel.

35:22

Engineering support came from Joby

35:24

Tenseiko. Gillie Moon.

35:26

Brian Gerbo. We have fact checking

35:28

help from? Julia Wu.

35:30

Our executive producer is Virland

35:33

Williams. Our VP of programming is

35:35

Yolanda Sanghui, our senior VP

35:37

of programming is Anja Grundman.

35:40

Alright. That's all for this episode

35:42

of it's been a minute from NPR. I'm

35:44

Britney Loose, talk soon.