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0:41

Hello you're very welcome to Long Reads, a

0:43

Jacobin podcast where we look in depth at

0:45

political topics and thinkers. My

0:47

name's Daniel Finn, I'm the features

0:49

editor here at Jacobin, and

0:51

I'll be presenting the show. This

0:54

tune was originally composed during the

0:56

First World War to celebrate a

0:59

Serbian victory over the Austro-Hungarian forces.

1:02

It's called the March on the Drina, and

1:04

this rendition comes from a 1964 movie about the

1:08

battle. The

1:10

March on the Drina became a popular

1:12

tune for international musicians to cover, from

1:15

Chet Atkins to The Shadows. One

1:18

version by the big band leader James Last,

1:20

which should really have been considered another

1:22

German declaration of war on the people

1:24

of Serbia. During

1:35

the 1990s, the government

1:37

of Slobodan Milosevic led Serbia into

1:39

a third Balkan war. His

1:42

allies in Bosnia were responsible for a

1:45

litany of war crimes, including

1:47

the massacre at Srebrenica. The

1:50

war left Serbia itself isolated and

1:52

impoverished. A protest movement

1:55

drove Milosevic from power in 2000. Two

1:59

decades later. Herbie as a

2:01

president who served under most of

2:03

it's unsupported the wars in Croatia,

2:05

Bosnia and Kosovo. whereas Serbia going

2:07

to date on the the rule

2:10

of Alexandre Roots it's. I.

2:13

Guess Today's Lily Lynch, an American

2:15

journalist, has been reporting from Belgrade

2:17

over the last decade. She's.

2:19

The editor of Balkan Usmagazine and she's

2:21

written for publication such as New Left

2:24

Review and The New Statesman. I

2:26

started off by asking her about the nature of

2:28

the movement That brought them a loss of it's

2:30

at the turn of the Century. Since

2:33

two thousand, that was really yeah at

2:35

as. An unholy alliance

2:38

of than. Center

2:40

lasts liberals and like said of

2:42

conservative right wing nationalists if you

2:44

were to identify and he shared

2:46

positions that they had it would

2:48

be kind of. Support for

2:51

free markets and opposition to

2:53

Milosevic. So those are the

2:55

type to be points that

2:57

connected them. Also,

2:59

they received. Or support

3:01

from the West service. And

3:03

not just rhetorical support that financial and

3:06

logistical support predominantly from us, but also

3:08

from the you, It was. it. sort

3:10

of kind of the kitchen sink type

3:12

government like. let's bring everybody together who

3:15

doesn't make much. Of it's an overthrow

3:17

him that way. And of course that

3:19

meant that in a people involved with

3:21

the opposition's who took power had very

3:23

different. Sorts of reasons for

3:26

disliking or switch. And

3:28

very different visions of like what a

3:30

kind of posts Two thousand posts, more

3:32

of it's. Serbia, Would look

3:35

like. What were

3:37

the social? No qualms about First decade

3:39

after the Fall of Molasses. It's for

3:41

the majority of people in Serbia. Well.

3:45

It depends on. Which. Class

3:47

he belonged to for the

3:49

sort of. Urban middle

3:52

class, educated people, Who had

3:54

been suppressed and disenfranchised. Penalosa

3:56

that it was a certain

3:58

period as restoration. Them. To

4:01

sort of what they thought he

4:03

other kind of rightful place in

4:05

society. it ends. I know a

4:07

lot of people would say the

4:09

sort of the most optimistic and

4:11

best years of their lives, but

4:13

for us with the working class

4:15

people who had perhaps formerly comprised

4:17

the both of support for most

4:19

of it she was a very

4:21

challenging time. The

4:23

privatization that took place.

4:25

Is really kind of disaster Adam

4:28

I don't know anybody who is

4:30

characterize it as a success. Misfits

4:32

be a criminal sell off of

4:34

that you the five years once

4:36

booming industry which of course that

4:39

already kind of taken. Some.

4:41

Significant hit Sat through the Nato

4:44

bombing of Yugoslavia, Ninety Nine,

4:46

and and prior to that sanctions.

4:48

So you had mass redundancies, structural

4:50

reforms meaning that lot of people

4:53

lost their jobs. So there was

4:55

really is Ruth and Divide in

4:57

society. Inches read: the Winners of

4:59

Transition In the Losers of Transition

5:01

I would say that be sort

5:04

of class and ability. To

5:08

Fabia disappeared and he saw

5:10

through the competition of the

5:13

political elite really change. So

5:15

you had the middle class

5:17

and heard of all wealthier.

5:19

Families from before socialism sort

5:21

of read hate symbol is

5:24

hop positions. Within the political

5:26

hierarchy and a new saw in

5:28

the people from working class and

5:30

from people whose family is where

5:32

farmers completely disenfranchised. And no longer

5:35

you know comprise any role in.

5:38

The political elite. How

5:40

did most of it's and other

5:42

prominent figures you been accused of

5:44

war crimes to the nineteen nineties,

5:46

especially in Bosnia. Finally, and I'm

5:48

standing trial of the Hague. Well,

5:51

the West did with the

5:53

pennant always to. With this

5:55

region which is that kind of combination

5:58

of carrot and stick so. So from

6:00

the very beginning, the turning in the war

6:02

crimes and dieties

6:06

to the Hague was seen as a

6:08

sort of sacrifice for EU accession.

6:11

So it was kind of presented as

6:14

a requirement of EU, ultimate

6:16

EU membership. Like, you need to deliver

6:18

your war crime suspects to the Hague

6:21

and that will kind of open

6:23

the doors to the EU for you. Another

6:26

carrot and stick approach revolved

6:29

around economic kind of

6:31

incentives. Debt release

6:33

and financial aid were kind

6:35

of contingent upon cooperation with

6:37

the Hague. So and

6:39

sometimes it was very kind of transparent

6:41

and direct, where you delivered, or

6:44

Milosevic was delivered to the Hague and

6:46

the very next day, I think, that

6:48

Yugoslavia was granted a

6:50

tremendous amount of debt relief. Yeah,

6:53

it was a sort of carrot and stick approach. The

6:55

kind of lingering sort of effect

6:57

of that was that the way

7:00

delivering war crime suspects to the

7:02

Hague was kind of perceived within

7:05

serving a society was as

7:08

a sort of necessary evil and

7:10

that sort of sacrifice. Maybe

7:13

it was something that most people didn't really

7:15

want to do or didn't really support. They

7:17

didn't really necessarily like the idea of a

7:20

lot of these war crime suspects being delivered

7:23

to the Hague. They didn't think that it

7:25

was fair, but they felt that

7:27

it was a kind of necessary sacrifice

7:30

on the altar of sort of ultimate

7:32

European integration. And this

7:35

meant that there wasn't necessarily a lot

7:37

of conversation within Serbian

7:39

society. I would say outside

7:41

of sort of the NGO sector and

7:44

the civil society sector about

7:46

the real reasons they had

7:49

been indicted for war crimes

7:51

or being called to the

7:53

Hague to face war crimes charges.

7:55

It was sort of more, you

7:57

know, we have to do this, Once

8:00

you because the You and

8:02

the Us. Slobodan

8:09

Milosevic died in two thousand and six

8:11

One who's on trial at the Hague.

8:14

Is Bosnian Serb ally Ratko Mladic

8:16

was arrested by Serbian police and

8:18

twenty eleven after years on the

8:20

run when his trial concluded and

8:22

twenty seventeen two decades after the

8:25

war ended. Christiane Amanpour of Cnn

8:27

look back on her encounters with

8:29

Milad. It's during the nineteen Nineties,

8:31

a bit of to sit on

8:33

us if we'd be poor without

8:35

them as that it's good to

8:37

have them around and that but

8:39

in a small a concentration ceiling.

8:41

Words from the man they called

8:43

the butcher of Bosnia General Ratko

8:45

Mladic, the snide que le mars

8:47

his killer instinct. It defines that

8:49

it's and it made him an

8:51

uncomfortable man to confront. Dare you

8:53

know your own people and your

8:55

soldiers to them? You're. A great man.

8:57

You're a hero to enemies. You somebody

8:59

to be feared and somebody to be

9:01

hated. How do you feel about that?

9:05

Little I into the sun some pizza is

9:07

very interesting questions as such noise or yet

9:10

those of those things you say are correct.

9:13

America calls him a war criminal

9:15

and under any kind of Un

9:17

tribunal, he may have to be

9:19

prosecuted. Or does he think about

9:21

that? Far. Off as long as I sat

9:23

in a tough question. What is a tough man

9:26

in the town for As Scm over the years I

9:28

can say it's as if I've taken more ruff once

9:30

I can take both to. Either

9:33

of us to set up some of

9:35

that. I defended

9:37

my people as only might people can

9:39

judge me and there's no greater honor

9:42

and defending your people. Manage

9:45

was convicted on charges including

9:47

genocide and crimes against Humanity.

9:50

His final appeal against the verdict was

9:52

rejected and Twenty Twenty One. What?

9:56

was happening during this period with the

9:58

state security forces and the networks

10:00

of organized crime in Serbia? One

10:04

of the biggest problems

10:06

with Serbia's sort of quote

10:09

unquote transition to democracy was

10:12

that the state security services are

10:14

basically left untouched from Milosevic's time.

10:16

They kind of, there

10:18

was no lusteration. Those individuals

10:21

remained constant. So the under,

10:23

maybe they, if you

10:25

could think about it, like the surface was

10:28

changed, but underneath everything kind

10:30

of remains the same. And during

10:32

the 90s, there was a

10:34

real symbiosis between state security

10:37

services and organized crime. This

10:39

was partly due to sanctions and

10:42

that kind of criminalization of society that took

10:44

place as a result of sanctions in

10:47

which sort of ordinary people even had

10:50

to sort of resort to like semi-criminal

10:52

activities in order to survive.

10:54

But from the get-go,

10:57

there was this sort of relationship,

10:59

this murky relationship between like the

11:01

deep state, so-called deep state and

11:04

the organized crime. But

11:06

what happened is some of the opposition leaders

11:08

who had ultimately become the main political

11:11

figures of post-Milosevic Serbia, namely

11:14

Vojaslav Kustinica, the sort of

11:17

right-wing nationalist who

11:19

is an anti-communist who was ultimately

11:21

the first prime minister of

11:23

Yugoslavia after 2000, first democratic

11:25

prime minister, and sort

11:28

of liberal kind of

11:30

center-left figure, Zoran

11:32

Jindjic, they both

11:34

spoke to these kind

11:37

of criminal, kind of quasi-criminal

11:39

slash state security leaders before

11:41

the fall of Milosevic and sort of made

11:44

a gentleman's agreement with them, which was you

11:46

won't fire on protesters. You

11:49

won't, you know, use violence against

11:52

anti-government protesters, and

11:54

in exchange, we'll basically leave you alone after

11:56

the transition, after we come to power. That

11:59

was... From what I understand now, this

12:01

sort of agreement. Now. Of course, a

12:04

couple of years later, Zoran Ginger

12:06

which was then in two thousand

12:08

and three he was the prime

12:10

minister. He was under tremendous a

12:12

lot of pressure from the west

12:14

and also think that he's believe

12:16

that you tackling organized crime that.

12:18

It sort of essential to me that Serbia

12:20

can had to do to. Advance And

12:23

so he started through undertake

12:25

certain actions that would have

12:27

ultimately scrutinized these criminal structures

12:29

that have been linked to

12:32

this a security and they

12:34

killed him. They killed be

12:36

assassinated. Or as Orange and Jets

12:38

and March Two Thousand and Three

12:41

is of course, a huge shock

12:43

to Serbian society. And

12:45

sort of that I think

12:47

that event was really nervous

12:49

a inspired a sort of

12:52

mythology that. Took. Hold which.

12:54

Was that Serbia could have

12:56

gone in another direction? You

12:58

know of only as Orange Injured. She

13:00

was very well educated and sort of

13:03

them considered a more kind of quote

13:05

unquote enlightened figure. Certainly somebody who I

13:07

think it's very. It's still very

13:09

flawed, but had a lot

13:11

at neighboring. Countries would have

13:13

much preferred. Him as a partner

13:15

in power in Belgrade. On your the

13:18

fact that he was kind of cut

13:20

down his prime. Nan. The

13:23

end the stream. of the

13:25

through different kind of Serbia. Says

13:27

course in there. Perhaps.

13:29

There are truth. To that. But I think

13:32

they're also problems of this thinking because

13:34

it gives. If this were a segment

13:36

of so cold that liberal center

13:38

left Serbia a. And out you

13:40

know it's some and will. Everything would

13:42

have been okay if. Ginger was

13:44

assassinated. A

13:57

voice for listening to belongs to

14:00

one of Serbia My social pop

14:02

stars from Atlanta, Rational Door, which

14:04

better known simply as Teacher, is

14:06

a star of the turbo folk

14:08

zone or of the became hugely

14:10

popular in the nineteen nineties. This

14:12

recording comes from her wedding and

14:14

ninety ninety five to our com.

14:17

A football hooligan who became the

14:19

leader of a Taurus paramilitary force

14:21

called a Tigers from the wars

14:23

in Croatia and Bosnia are com

14:25

was also major figure in the

14:27

world of organized crime. Run his

14:29

own football club. He was assassinated

14:31

in the lobby of a Belgrade

14:33

hotel in two thousand. His widow

14:35

was later accused of helping the

14:37

guy that killed the Or and

14:39

Ginger it's. Those charges were

14:41

dropped for lack of evidence, although

14:43

she was later convicted of embezzlement

14:45

and possession of illegal firearms. For

14:49

church of these legal difficulties haven't done

14:51

much harm to a Korean pop music.

14:53

You can find a video of her

14:55

wedding to Our Town on Are You

14:57

Tube channel which has more than a

14:59

million subscribers. Records

15:07

of some seven million copies and he

15:10

works as a judge for singing competition

15:12

on Serbian T V. J

15:15

to released a new song called don't Count

15:17

On Me. Earlier this year. And

15:32

so he as sophisticated this. Criminals

15:34

and it flaws I

15:36

six seats security/hundred organized

15:38

crime structure is had.

15:41

Never. Really gone away

15:43

and remain. A component of

15:45

Serbian society and by extension sort

15:47

of also have influence. And

15:50

neighboring countries and. Of question

15:52

of that Darfur reality is

15:54

as at the current President's

15:56

Alexander footage has connections to

15:58

those criminal structures. That

16:00

brings us onto the next question

16:02

that I wanted to ask. Looking

16:05

at the rise of I found

16:07

her roots. It's what was his

16:09

political background and track record, and

16:11

how did he become Prime Minister

16:13

and ultimately President of Serbia. Yeah,

16:17

so this it's started his political

16:19

career as. A certain is very

16:21

the member of the Radical Party

16:23

of Serbia wishes than. As a

16:26

name suggests and a radical. That

16:28

by. You're right wing far

16:30

right party which was.

16:33

Always. Known during the Ninety

16:35

Nine is as being very intimately

16:37

connected to the to state security

16:40

and kind of used. My list

16:42

milosevic almost as a way to portray

16:44

himself was moderates. Because they were

16:47

so far to the right and so

16:49

extreme. So. Votes. It's actually

16:51

served as minister of Information under

16:53

Milosevic in the last years of

16:55

his rule and that had it

16:58

was rain at Horace as a

17:00

break zealous for to curb Canada.

17:02

Pursuer of anybody who

17:04

have media journal critical

17:06

journalists Some he does.

17:08

He early on figured

17:10

out that controlling Serbia's

17:12

in media was re

17:15

essentials you. Are

17:17

holding in power and also he

17:19

understood the necessity of sort of

17:21

keeping a close relationship with organized

17:23

crime and these kind of the

17:25

deep state security services. So on

17:28

the he was equator or an

17:30

extreme figure it eyes he famously

17:32

said the were in a killer

17:34

hundred muslims for every served during

17:36

the war in Bosnia. so he

17:39

lives yeah very have odious figure.

17:41

Both. For that domestic opposition for people in

17:43

the elsewhere in the region to or non

17:45

serbs. So he remained are. They

17:48

now have a rising star in the

17:50

Radical party. Through. all

17:52

of the way after most it's

17:54

fell and when they entered opposition

17:56

and and through the me no

17:58

need to thousand and up

18:00

until 2008 when

18:03

it became very apparent that, you

18:05

know, I would say that around

18:08

that time the sort of pinnacle of support

18:11

for EU membership in Serbia and

18:14

people really saw their future in

18:16

the EU regardless of sort of

18:18

their political orientation. And

18:21

the radical party of which Vutish was,

18:23

you know, one of the leading members

18:25

was very hard-line Eurosceptic or had, you

18:27

know, had been always been Eurosceptic. I

18:30

would say not even Eurosceptic anti-EU. And

18:33

so after the election 2008

18:36

that the radicals lost

18:38

to the Democratic Party, the sort

18:40

of party that I mentioned of

18:42

Zoran Jindjic, the sort of liberal,

18:45

slunter left party pro-EU, they

18:47

kind of realized that they needed to change

18:49

their ways if they were ever going to actually

18:51

enter power. And I

18:53

would say that another important thing happened in the

18:56

year 2008 which was Kosovo declared

18:59

independence from Serbia. Of

19:01

course Serbia still does not recognize Kosovo's independence,

19:04

but when Kosovo

19:07

declared independence, of course, this was

19:09

like highly, you know, pushed back

19:12

against in Serbia by nationalists and

19:14

Wojcieb Kustinica who was the prime

19:16

minister at the time, this is again the nationalist

19:18

sort of anti-communist right-wing conservative.

19:22

He, I don't

19:24

know the exact way

19:26

it went down as a matter of

19:28

some dispute, but either way he

19:30

basically allowed nationalists to attack the US

19:32

embassy, to set fire to

19:34

the US embassy. And so

19:37

as a result of that, later,

19:40

years later, the then

19:42

American ambassador would later

19:44

recall that he decided at that time,

19:46

we need to make sure this guy, Wojcieb

19:48

Kustinica, loses the next election. Like

19:51

we need to kind of engage

19:53

in some, you know, tinkering, election

19:56

tinkering, not, you know, maybe just

19:58

tampering with the political answer. of

20:00

Serbia that in order to kind of

20:02

ensure that this guy knows, you know, kind of understands

20:04

that he can't allow our embassy

20:07

to be attacked. So what

20:09

happens is that they sort of

20:11

encourage the leader of the socialist

20:14

party of Serbia, which is of course

20:16

Milosevic's old party, even Zatjic

20:18

they encourage him to sort of split

20:21

with the radicals and go with DS,

20:24

this sort of pro-EU, left liberal

20:26

kind of ish flavored party. And

20:29

at the same time I think there's this recognition

20:32

within or this idea within the

20:34

US, particularly within the with this

20:36

ambassador Cameron Mutter, that we

20:39

need to sort of, what

20:41

about if we had a kind

20:43

of pro-US, pro-EU right-wing

20:46

party? Because of course Serbia, the

20:48

very nationalist kind of in general,

20:51

the kind of majority tends to be

20:53

pretty conservative nationalists. So

20:55

the thinking was, you know,

20:58

a nationalist, somebody with nationalist

21:00

credentials could probably get done

21:02

things that the kind of, you

21:05

know, pro-EU sort of democrats couldn't

21:07

get done. And what

21:09

I'm speaking of here is mostly

21:12

resolving the matter of Kosovo's contested

21:14

status and normalizing relation

21:17

to Kosovo. So

21:19

at this point, very

21:21

opportunistically, Vucic and another

21:24

one of the highest ranking members of

21:27

the radical party, Thomas Love-Nickelich, decided to

21:29

create like a splinter party. They break

21:31

off from the radicals and

21:34

they form their own party, the Serbian

21:36

Progressive Party. And that's

21:38

the party that's been, you know, this dominated

21:40

Serbian politics for the past 12 years. So

21:43

really kind of began with this sort of idea

21:46

that, you know, we need to kind

21:48

of embrace pro-EU policies. This is obviously

21:50

very much encouraged by the US. So

21:53

they're thinking, you know, we can kind

21:55

of really make inroads with Serbian nationalists who

21:57

would always be kind of a hit. at

22:00

least during the 90s,

22:02

been very anti-American and anti-West. So

22:05

here's an opportunity for us to sort of

22:07

like bring the Serbs sort of on our

22:09

side. So that's sort of how

22:11

Vucic, the kind of phenomenon

22:13

of Vucic has

22:15

its origins, splitting with

22:17

a radical party. And then

22:20

in 2012, it was kind

22:22

of a bit of a shock at the time that the,

22:25

it was an election and the

22:27

Serbian Progressive Party, Vucic's party

22:29

won the election.

22:32

And Thomas Love-Nickelich,

22:35

Vucic's partner became president.

22:38

And Vucic at the time wasn't

22:40

really yet who he is

22:42

today. Wasn't, at

22:45

least formally, he only had the position

22:47

of Deputy Prime Minister. But

22:50

then it became this very odd, this period

22:52

of 2012, 2013, from

22:55

the position of Deputy Prime Minister,

22:57

he very quickly started amassing

22:59

tremendous amounts of power. He

23:02

very quickly changed laws that

23:05

had formally required some sort of

23:07

separation of powers within the

23:10

security services. So at one point,

23:12

he was Deputy Prime Minister, Minister

23:14

of Defense and the head

23:16

of the Serbian, Serbian

23:18

State Security all at the same

23:21

time. So he had this

23:23

multiplication of roles and

23:25

multiplicity of roles that he was, and

23:28

just amassing total control of

23:30

the country himself. He

23:33

also eventually ended up in the

23:35

first couple of years purged all

23:38

of Thomas Love-Nickelich, his former partners,

23:41

people from very

23:43

high positions within the party, and

23:46

even from the party's main board,

23:48

and re-staffed them all with his

23:50

own loyalists. In

24:01

the early 90s, Red Star briefly had the

24:03

strongest team in Europe. Despite

24:06

their association with Serbian nationalism, they won

24:08

the European Cup in 1991, with

24:11

a team composed of players from across

24:14

Yugoslavia. The man who

24:16

scored the winner in a penalty

24:18

shootout against Marseille, Darko Panchov, was

24:20

Macedonian. By

24:31

the time they lifted the trophy, the war had

24:33

already begun. Today, the

24:35

economics of European football make it impossible

24:37

for any Balkan team to match the achievement

24:39

of Red Star. But there's

24:41

still a dedicated hooligan culture around

24:43

the game that overlaps with organised

24:46

crime. In 2017,

24:48

Vice magazine produced a documentary about

24:50

the Belgrade Derby, between Red Star

24:53

and their bitter rivals Partisan. The

24:56

most powerful groups surrounding the Derby are

24:58

the fan firms on either side of

25:00

the rivalry, known as Ultras. They

25:03

lead non-stop chants during the games, orchestrate

25:06

violence against opposing fans, and

25:09

skim profits from their club's merchandise

25:11

and concessions. Even

25:13

after repeated clashes in the stands and

25:15

disruption of games, very little has been

25:17

done to stop their influence. Partisan's

25:23

ultra-fan group are known as the

25:25

Grobari, Serbian for undertakers.

25:28

With thousands of young men in their ranks,

25:30

they've grown highly organised. Though

25:33

they have no official management over

25:36

the team, the Grobari use intimidation

25:38

to wield significant influence within the

25:40

organisation. CHANS

25:43

YOU YA! Even

25:49

this one in front of my adrenaline is pumping

25:51

like mad. There are thousands of Partisan

25:53

fans marching this way. Very

26:00

challenging things like transportation.

26:03

But they're clapping, it's

26:05

becoming much more organised. Occasionally they'll stop,

26:07

regroup, go quiet, and then someone on

26:09

the tunnel will say, right,

26:11

start again, and they'll just go out of nowhere.

26:17

A massive fight. God

26:19

knows what's going on. Flares are being thrown,

26:22

fireworks are going off. And they haven't even

26:24

met the opposing team yet, or

26:26

the opposing supporters. That must have been against the police, and it

26:28

seems to be against themselves a little bit. Police

26:34

and firefighters were on hand at the stadium,

26:36

but did little to stop the fans lobbing

26:39

flares and fireworks into the sky, as if

26:41

they knew this spectacle was just far beyond

26:43

their control. In

26:46

spite of the outpouring of violence at

26:48

these games, the Derby persists. It's

26:52

become an outlet for young men with

26:54

a fractured national identity and hopeless economy,

26:57

leaving them searching for meaning through rivalry.

27:02

So it was a real kind of dramatic takeover

27:05

of all levels of society. At the same

27:08

time, during those first years, you

27:10

had also this sort of like, tabularisation

27:12

of Serbian media, which

27:15

had always left something to be

27:17

desired, even under DS, the sort of, you

27:20

know, center-leftish

27:24

party that had dominated Serbian politics from 2000 to 2012. The

27:30

media became sort of a

27:32

mouthpiece for Vucic, actually. Most

27:36

of the media, you had kind of various

27:38

tiny pockets of opposition media, but

27:41

it was very dramatically pro-Vucic. And

27:44

also you had this party,

27:47

DS, the Democratic Party, which

27:49

had been the dominant

27:52

force in Serbian politics after Milosevic

27:54

was basically pulverised. They

27:56

had a very tiny percentage of the media of

28:00

public support today. Voutic

28:03

was very talented and

28:05

remains very talented. It's sort of like

28:08

creating splits within

28:11

the opposition in order to kind of divide

28:13

and conquer. So yeah, that

28:15

was sort of how the takeover went. And

28:17

he also went on this kind of anti-corruption

28:20

crusade in the first years where

28:22

he was arresting oligarchs, so-called

28:25

oligarchs, they would call them tycoons

28:28

in Serbia, exploiting

28:31

the righteous anger towards

28:33

the democratic party, which

28:35

had overseen this horrible

28:37

privatization process, criminal privatization

28:39

process. And

28:42

using that to kind of engage in

28:45

sort of like a populist anti-corruption crusade, which ended

28:48

up being a very wise

28:50

political strategy. Also, of course, this

28:52

is in the years immediately after

28:55

the global financial crisis. So

28:57

he's able to really kind

29:00

of stoke the resentment towards the kind

29:02

of center left that had been in

29:04

power since Milosevic and ended up being

29:06

very successful for him. What

29:09

would you say is the nature

29:11

of the political hegemony that Voutic

29:13

went on to establish over the

29:15

last decade? And to

29:18

what extent does it rely on direct

29:20

coercion up to and including the most

29:22

recent elections that were held

29:24

towards the end of last year? I

29:27

think the exact nature of the

29:30

so-called negative of the regime, I suppose,

29:32

the government, is a bit a matter

29:34

of some kind of academic

29:37

dispute. I think people have sort

29:39

of settled on the idea of

29:42

a competitive authoritarianism. So

29:44

you have elections, political

29:47

pluralism, but it's

29:50

still heavily, the system is heavily

29:52

gained in favor of the ruling

29:54

party. So the opposition

29:57

doesn't really have any... access

30:00

to state television, the

30:04

media is so

30:06

heavily in Buttigieg's corner

30:08

that it's impossible for the opposition to

30:10

sort of get any fair media coverage.

30:14

The judiciary is basically captured

30:16

by the party, party interests.

30:19

The state security agencies

30:21

are still basically operating

30:24

as an arm of the ruling party. So

30:27

it's really kind of impossible for

30:30

the opposition to sort of get their positions

30:33

across the electorate. But

30:35

at the same time, and I don't want to like let

30:38

them completely off the hook, the opposition doesn't

30:40

really, has not been particularly successful

30:42

at articulating an alternative

30:45

program that's attractive to the public.

30:47

They're mostly just very good at

30:49

criticizing and naming what Buttigieg does

30:51

wrong. But in terms of

30:54

coercion, I think that there is a good

30:57

amount of coercion of the public sector

30:59

who are basically expected to vote for

31:01

the ruling party in exchange for maintaining

31:04

employment. Of

31:06

course, the opposition would say that absent

31:09

any kind of coercion, whether it's kind

31:11

of financial coercion, literal

31:13

vote buying, or pressure to

31:15

keep your job as contingent

31:18

upon voting for the ruling party,

31:20

the degree to which like, it's

31:22

actually, those people wouldn't vote

31:24

for Buttigieg and would quote unquote, see

31:26

the light and vote for the opposition if only they

31:28

knew how great the opposition was. I'm not sure

31:30

that I'm quite as convinced as

31:33

the opposition that they would be, you

31:35

know, natural opposition

31:37

voters. Again, I have a lot of criticism

31:40

of the opposition as well. But

31:43

there is no question. There's a

31:45

tremendous amount of coercion. I think

31:47

there's a kind of enforced conformity,

31:49

top down conformity within a

31:52

lot of institutions, whether

31:55

it's kind of academia or, you know,

31:57

again, the public sector, there is

31:59

the expectation Adaptation that you sort of either

32:01

keep your head down or you know, you know face

32:05

consequences It's

32:07

not like people being Fascinated

32:09

really at least not you know, it's not

32:11

that level more. It's more kind of analogous

32:13

to say to like Hungary under Orban Where

32:17

there's more pressure but it's not so

32:19

overt where you know there's a lot

32:21

of I would say people are afraid

32:23

and there are a little bit

32:25

of a nervous to Stand

32:28

out too much or face certain

32:31

kinds of professional consequences But

32:33

and in the recent elections, I mean I would

32:35

say that you know, probably this is best illustrated

32:37

by an anecdote Which is kind of shocking one

32:42

Opposition figures why I wouldn't say that he's a

32:44

major opposition opposition figure he's known but he's not

32:46

a big one Not certainly

32:48

not one of the main competitors with

32:50

the footage If

32:52

there are any editors who's with her really aren't

32:55

but this guy is the kind of like, you know He's

32:57

pretty liberal or been kind of probably

32:59

this wouldn't really get too much

33:01

of the vote but about

33:04

a year before the election

33:06

he had a break in and his

33:08

apartment and a laptop was

33:10

stolen and What

33:14

a couple weeks before the election in December

33:16

of Just last

33:18

year the pro-government television

33:21

started playing a tape like a video

33:24

they found on that laptop of Private

33:27

sex tape so they're playing on

33:29

morning television so clearly

33:32

his You know his apartment

33:34

had been broken into by somebody, you know

33:37

connected to state security and that

33:39

those those tapes or Video

33:42

that laptop whatever the contents of it

33:44

had been shared with them The

33:47

government and they used it as a way

33:49

of attacking him really ugly, you know to play

33:51

that kind of thing on television Like, you know

33:54

morning or daytime television. So this

33:56

kind of activity is intended to sort of

33:59

not only sort of discredit the opposition

34:01

as being sort of, you know, quote

34:03

unquote degenerate or not like

34:07

the good, pure, you know, Serbian people,

34:09

but also sort of to keep everybody

34:11

on their toes and sort of to

34:13

kind of promote paranoia and fear in

34:16

the sense of like, we're watching you and

34:19

you know, you can never get too far or too big or

34:24

else you're gonna face consequences for your personal

34:26

life. So that's

34:28

a kind of fear that exists within

34:31

media, people and journalism and also in

34:33

politics, political politics. After

34:39

the elections last December, the Serbian

34:42

opposition accused the ruling party of

34:44

electoral fraud. There were

34:46

several weeks of protest and a hunger

34:48

strike by opposition leaders, but

34:50

there was no real question of the president

34:52

losing his grip on power. DW

34:55

News had this report on the aftermath

34:57

of the election. Rallies

35:03

like this one have become a

35:06

daily occurrence in Belgrade since the

35:08

country's parliamentary and local elections on

35:10

December the 17th. The

35:14

demonstrators accused president Alexander Vucic

35:16

and his ruling right-wing Serbian

35:19

progressive party of rigging the

35:21

vote. The

35:24

only thing that this state had to

35:27

provide to its citizens was

35:29

to freely elect the ones who will lead the

35:31

country. But

35:33

they stole the elections. Vucic,

35:36

you guys stole not one,

35:38

but thousands and thousands of

35:40

votes. Tepeic

35:44

is among a handful of opposition leaders

35:46

on a hunger strike who say they

35:48

won't stop until the results are annulled.

35:52

Riot police moved in after

35:54

demonstrators tried to storm Belgrade

35:56

City Hall, Barricading themselves

35:59

in. The building was

36:01

some continues helsing. It

36:03

was stones and eggs.

36:06

Police fired tear gas to disperse

36:08

the crowd and arrested for thousands

36:11

of demonstrators in a televised address.

36:13

During the protests, The present accuse

36:15

the opposition trying to destabilize the

36:18

country. When

36:20

a group was working on to people who

36:23

vowed to fight violence confirmed once again with

36:25

the Day of The Real South and as

36:27

they want to destroy us cities, villages, houses

36:29

above all our country which we will not

36:31

allow them to destroy our country litter wind

36:34

up the. The solution is to the

36:36

gym. He also.

36:38

Suggested the unrest was instigated from

36:40

abroad. Although rooted was not personally

36:42

on the ballot for the parliamentary

36:45

and local elections, the vote was

36:47

largely seen as a referendum on

36:49

his. Government according. To

36:52

official results, his party won

36:54

a majority of the seats

36:56

in parliament with just over

36:58

forty six percent of the

37:00

vote. International observers noted several

37:02

irregularities in the snap elections,

37:04

including instances of vote buying,

37:06

ballot box stuffing, and some

37:09

busing and of voters. To

37:11

support the ruling party in

37:13

local elections. One.

37:16

Of the main features of the economic

37:18

model in Serbia today. I

37:21

have recently thought described as an

37:23

authoritarian neo liberalism. I really like

37:25

and I will and that's a

37:27

perfect way. Of. Describing the

37:30

sort of ruling party is economic

37:32

policy is so. In

37:34

a way I would say Serbia's. Economic

37:37

current. Policies. Are

37:39

a sort of more extreme version of

37:41

what exists in this in the so

37:43

called Canada Western Liberal. Democracies in

37:45

the sense like post Two

37:48

thousand Eight. With. Liberalism

37:50

be more. criticize and

37:52

they seem sort of a populist backlash

37:54

you see it less and less sort

37:57

of appeals to how great it is

37:59

and more sort of coercive practices put

38:01

in place. More, you even see in

38:03

the West, sort of liberals becoming

38:06

more comfortable with authoritarian tactics

38:08

and censorship.

38:11

And so this is sort of

38:13

the same system that exists in Serbia, but it's

38:15

just easier for us to see it as a

38:17

sort of real kind of extreme. It's

38:20

basically like the gutting

38:22

of any kind of protections for workers, but

38:24

at the same time, who just will say,

38:26

look, you know, unemployment's down, but at the

38:29

same time you have a rise of like

38:31

more precarious types of employment, right? You

38:34

have the sort of influx of

38:37

foreign investment, but a

38:39

total lack of transparency around that foreign

38:41

investment. So the penultimate

38:43

example is the Belgrade Waterfront

38:46

Project, which is petrodollars from

38:48

the Gulf flowing in to

38:51

create this like sort of incongruous,

38:54

like bizarre Dubai

38:56

on the Danube Vega

38:58

project, which doesn't make

39:00

any sense historically or otherwise it's

39:02

sort of Serbia's architectural heritage. And

39:07

this is like, you know, there was no

39:09

consultation with urban planners or with, you know,

39:11

the public. These were

39:13

contracts awarded in a very kind

39:15

of shady ways. So this

39:18

is a sort of top down neoliberal

39:21

city planning and economic

39:23

planning and very,

39:25

very sort of menacing, I think

39:27

for a lot of people. But

39:30

at the same time, Butch is

39:32

also to sustain the kind of

39:34

unpleasant economic reality. He's using a

39:37

lot of nationalist rhetoric to sort

39:39

of pander to a lot

39:41

of people who might otherwise be

39:43

outraged for these changes.

39:48

The so-called Pink Panther Gang has been

39:50

one of Serbia's most successful companies operating

39:53

in foreign markets since the turn of

39:55

the century. The gang is

39:57

believed to be made up of highly trained army

39:59

veterans. They've carried out robberies

40:01

all the way from London to Tokyo

40:03

and Dubai. They've

40:05

stolen jewelry and other items worth several

40:07

hundred million dollars. Sixty

40:10

Minutes profiled the gang back in 2014. Copenhagen

40:14

2007, a jewelry store inside a hotel. In

40:19

front of stunned guests, three men raced

40:21

through the lobby and into the store.

40:24

They smashed glass cases and

40:26

made off with more than a million dollars

40:28

worth of stones. In

40:30

the last 20 years, they've been

40:32

responsible for half a billion dollars

40:34

in robberies. And all that

40:37

time, there's been one fatality. Precise

40:40

timing and well-planned getaways are

40:42

their trademark. From the time they

40:44

enter the door until they break all the glass in the

40:46

cases, take the jewelry and or out in

40:48

less than 30 seconds, and then they have a getaway

40:50

plan within a matter of hours there

40:52

in another country. That's their classic MO,

40:55

if you will. One

40:57

member of the gang spoke to the makers of

40:59

a documentary called Smash and Grab and explained how

41:01

it was able to function. So

41:04

tell me, who are the pink pants? Well

41:07

I don't have a badge that says pink

41:09

panther on it. We

41:11

are a network of teams working together and

41:13

as soon as I was involved, I became

41:15

part of the

41:17

network. Everybody has a specific job to do, understand?

41:21

So we all depend on each other. Those

41:24

in an inner circle are called family. But

41:27

you have guys who don't know who their

41:30

bosses or associates are. You

41:32

get tips from your own supervisor, but there is also

41:34

a wider chain of command. You

41:36

never know where you stand in hierarchy because you

41:38

never meet the boss. You

41:41

don't know that this guy is a big boss.

41:43

There's no such a thing. No big

41:45

boss. So tell

41:47

me, what is it about the diamond? I

41:51

don't know why people spend money on diamonds. I

41:54

don't suffer from this showing off. I

41:56

have a Rolex that has a souvenir. The

41:59

diamonds? No, they don't attract me.

42:01

For me, dams mean good cash. If

42:08

we look now at some of the other

42:10

territories that were still part of the Rump-Yugoslav

42:12

state, even after the general breakup

42:14

of Yugoslavia in the early 90s, during

42:18

the period after the fall

42:20

of Milosevic, Milo Djukanovic guided

42:22

Montenegro towards a break with

42:24

Serbia. And he remained

42:26

in power for two decades before

42:28

finally losing the presidential election last

42:30

year. What was the nature

42:32

of his rule in Montenegro and how did

42:34

it come to an end? Djukanovic

42:38

was another sort of very

42:41

smart autocratic figure, really. I mean, he was

42:43

in power for like almost three decades. I

42:45

mean, there were moments when he was almost

42:48

continuously three decades, let's say, longer

42:50

than Putin was in power. He

42:54

was very adept at sensing

42:56

which way the political winds were shifting. He

42:59

was a brilliant chameleon when he

43:01

was formerly a very close associate

43:04

of Milosevic and really

43:07

used identical kind of nationalist

43:09

rhetoric against some

43:11

of the other peoples of former Yugoslavia

43:13

and then decided that when it became

43:16

politically expedient

43:18

to the side of the West, that he

43:20

kind of embraced the West. So

43:23

the nature of his rule was very, I

43:25

was like, there's no question it was very corrupt

43:27

and very criminal. You know, he was indicted

43:30

for cigarette smuggling. There was

43:32

mass cigarette smuggling between Montenegro

43:35

and the Italian port of

43:37

Bari. Speedboats would be

43:39

heaving with cigarettes and be,

43:42

you know, taken across Adriatic

43:44

to Italy. The US

43:46

very much backed him and

43:48

even their reports of the

43:51

US interfered and the Italian

43:54

criminal justice system really advocated on his

43:56

behalf, said like, you know, we need this guy.

44:00

usually on him, you know, ultimately,

44:02

Jovanovich had like diplomatic immunity or

44:04

whatever, if he was in power, so

44:06

he couldn't, he didn't have to face

44:08

any kind of charges, ultimately was led

44:10

off. He really was very good at

44:12

that, always getting away with it. Yeah,

44:15

it was a real ugly time, I think, for

44:17

opposition media. You know,

44:20

there were a couple of attacks

44:22

on journalists and one journalist was

44:24

shot. One other journalist had their home

44:26

firebombed. I remember this as somebody

44:28

who was very much heavily backed by the

44:31

West. And I was

44:33

at Jovanovich's great sort of contribution,

44:35

his two great sort of contributions

44:38

to Montenegro's

44:40

history where first of all,

44:42

the independence sort of referendum,

44:44

as you mentioned, Montenegro's

44:47

independence from Serbia in

44:49

2006. So it became its own

44:51

country. And then

44:53

Montenegro's entrance into NATO. After

44:56

the annexation of Crimea

44:58

by Russia, there is a reinvigoration

45:01

of the enlargement process and so

45:03

the Macedonian Montenegro joined NATO.

45:05

As Montenegro prepared to join

45:07

NATO in 2017, the Alliance

45:10

released a promotional video about their

45:12

joint military exercises, complete with a

45:15

dramatic soundtrack. We're

45:17

trying to be able to do some joint

45:19

training and it just

45:21

keeps us abreast with their tactics,

45:23

our tactics, and be able to

45:25

blend together and be able to be more of

45:27

a cohesive unit if we ever need to execute

45:30

a real mission with them. Our

45:34

willingness to be a part

45:36

of the Alliance where we

45:38

can contribute towards attaining that

45:41

objective of the global system

45:43

security. No matter how

45:45

small the numbers, I do believe in

45:47

caper-related, I do believe in willingness, and

45:49

I do believe in commitment. But

45:57

you can imagine after all these years in

45:59

power And he had a lot of

46:01

enemies. I think that his rule

46:04

was really sort of sustained

46:06

by exploiting divisions in Montenegrin

46:08

society. And this

46:10

was largely the divisions between

46:13

those who would consider themselves Serbs

46:15

and those who would consider themselves

46:17

not Serbs, other Montenegrin, or one

46:20

of the other minorities Albanian, sizable

46:22

Albanian minority in Montenegro

46:24

and also Bashiach minority.

46:27

So, Jukan habitually courted

46:30

those minorities. But in

46:32

kind of an order to sustain his

46:34

rule, he really sort of needed to depict

46:36

the Serbian, large

46:38

Serbian minority as like a

46:40

fifth column. And you

46:42

kind of labeled all the Serbs

46:45

living in Montenegro as the own

46:47

genocide heirs and painting

46:49

and a very large segment of society

46:51

with one brush. It was a very

46:53

sort of, I think,

46:56

very calculated approach that worked

46:58

for a very long time until

47:01

it didn't. Until people realize

47:03

this guy is corrupt, this guy

47:05

is enriching himself and his inner

47:07

circle, even there were rumors or

47:09

maybe they're not rumors, I think it's

47:12

known that even receipts of

47:14

like welfare benefits was

47:17

contingent upon supporting

47:19

Jukanovich and that kind of thing, really

47:21

kind of ugly capture of the state by

47:23

his party and by himself.

47:27

And at a certain point, a very

47:29

sort of, again, one of these sort

47:31

of kitchen sink, like very politically, ideologically

47:34

heterogeneous groups of people

47:37

banded together to kick him out. And

47:40

this is a combination of people who were, to

47:43

a certain extent, I would say even sort

47:45

of nationally heterogeneous,

47:48

certainly politically so, who all came together and said, like,

47:50

we just need to get this guy out. And

47:53

so that he finally did lose

47:55

an election and now he's in, like

47:57

his party is in opposition. What

48:00

kind of political system and culture

48:02

would you say has developed in

48:04

Kosovo since the NATO war in

48:07

1999? And

48:09

how is Kosovo's relationship with Serbia

48:11

likely to develop? Well,

48:15

of course, the first years after

48:17

the NATO

48:20

intervention and after Milosevic

48:22

fell, Kosovo was officially

48:24

a protectorate of the international

48:27

community. Some people today would say

48:29

it's still kind of a de facto

48:31

international protectorate. But

48:33

of course, in 2008, Kosovo declared

48:35

independence from Serbia, as I mentioned earlier, I

48:38

would say the first leaders of Kosovo,

48:40

you know, were tended to be

48:42

quite corrupt. I

48:44

should also say it wasn't just them. There

48:47

was also corruption that the international community was

48:49

very much involved in as well

48:52

during their time administering

48:54

democracy. There, things

48:57

I would say changed several years

48:59

ago with the with Alban

49:02

Kerti, who had been

49:04

sort of an activist, mostly, kind

49:07

of leftist, maybe

49:10

the left nationalist in the sense that he

49:12

is his kind of point is that Kosovo

49:15

should really have independence. It shouldn't be a

49:18

sort of de facto

49:20

protectorate of the international community. And

49:23

he would protest to sort of the parasitic

49:25

multinationals committed into Kosovo.

49:29

So, yeah, he came to power. He's not corrupt.

49:31

And I think that that kind of ruffles the

49:33

feathers of a lot of Western

49:37

actors in the region who are kind

49:40

of going accustomed to, as my

49:43

discussion of Djokanovic suggests,

49:45

you know, kind of were fine

49:48

with corruption and it maybe even preferred

49:50

it because it got things done. And

49:52

so they don't really kind of know

49:55

what to do with Kerti and find

49:57

him to be stubborn and difficult. I

50:00

mean, I want to talk to you the

50:02

second part of your question. How is close to how

50:04

are Kosovo-Serbia relations going to evolve? I think it's important

50:06

to sort of see

50:08

how they've evolved, maybe in the last decade

50:10

or so. You kind

50:12

of can't really understand

50:15

how these, how things have evolved

50:17

without also sort of taking

50:19

into account the changing global context,

50:22

because about, I guess it

50:24

was 11 years ago, the Brussels Agreement was signed

50:26

normalizing relations between Kosovo and Serbia.

50:29

Now, of course, at this time, EU

50:32

enlargement remained in the minds

50:34

of a lot of people,

50:36

including Belgrade, a realistic goal.

50:40

This was still something that people believed was going

50:42

to happen. And, you

50:44

know, then, in the years following that

50:47

agreement, normalizing relations between Serbia

50:49

and Kosovo, you

50:51

have Brexit, you had like

50:53

crises within the EU, internal

50:56

crisis, and you had a sort

50:58

of the refugee crisis. So

51:01

you suddenly have like a sort of lack

51:04

of appetite for enlargement. And

51:07

you see a lot of sort of people

51:09

who have previously maybe been supportive of it,

51:11

you know, turning their backs on the idea

51:13

within the EU. So

51:15

this, I think, created a bit of

51:17

a, it de-incentivized a

51:20

bit the negotiations,

51:22

diplomacy between Serbia and

51:24

Kosovo, if there was

51:26

ever any real desire

51:30

on Serbia's part to normalize relations.

51:32

And that's a point of contention,

51:35

I'm not sure. As

51:37

I mentioned earlier, when I talked about Vutic, his

51:40

rise to power, the support he enjoys from

51:42

the US and many corners of the

51:44

EU, that I

51:47

think a lot of people saw him

51:49

as a potentially very beneficial kind of

51:51

partner to have for

51:53

getting Kosovo's status

51:55

resolved and some sort of, whether

51:58

it's de-factor recognition by a certain

52:00

kind of policy. Serbia, or real recognition

52:02

of Kosovo as an independent state, the

52:04

kind of strategic ambiguity of

52:07

the negotiations, I

52:10

think it's actually sort of a problem. The

52:13

negotiations between Kosovo and Serbia had

52:15

always sort of, there had been

52:17

this sort of ambiguity where nobody

52:19

was on the same page about what

52:21

they were looking for to get out

52:24

of them or what they thought they were getting out of

52:26

them. And so this was

52:28

fine maybe in the short term to get

52:30

people to sort of sign something. But

52:33

if all along Serbia was thinking

52:35

that we're never going to recognize Kosovo as an

52:37

independent state, whereas Kosovo was

52:39

thinking you're going to recognize Kosovo

52:41

as an independent state at some

52:43

point, there's only so long you

52:46

can kind of maintain that sort

52:48

of strategic ambiguity before eventually you

52:50

have to face the fact that nobody

52:52

is going to get what they're really looking for. So

52:55

I would say in recent years, you've

52:58

seen a sort of degeneration, deterioration of the

53:02

negotiation and what

53:05

existed of the relationship, which was really

53:07

not much of anything at all. The

53:10

courtesy is also very

53:13

kind of adamant that he has his,

53:15

again, I mentioned that he's not corrupt,

53:17

he is a very idealistic person, he

53:19

has his vision of how things should

53:21

look. Meanwhile, Vucjic is in

53:24

power in Serbia and with the EU

53:26

membership no longer really

53:28

looking like a credible

53:31

real goal. He has

53:33

less of an incentive to even kind

53:36

of pander to this sort of EU

53:38

friendly rhetoric and it's kind of taken, I

53:41

would say, especially around the time of the

53:43

pandemic, taken a more anti-Western

53:45

line. Now I

53:48

don't know that that, I don't

53:51

think that there's actually been a pivot,

53:53

a real pivot for Vucjic in his

53:55

policy, but certainly in rhetoric. According

54:00

to Al Jazeera at the beginning of last year, Albin

54:02

Kerti was keen to present his

54:05

government as a pro-European and pro-American

54:07

actor in the Balkans. Mr.

54:09

Prime Minister, the barricades are

54:11

now taken down and border

54:13

gates between your country and

54:16

Serbia reopened. Is

54:18

the crisis over or just frozen? The

54:21

crisis is not over because Kosovo

54:23

and Serbia have abnormal

54:25

relations. We need agreement on

54:27

full normalization of relations with

54:31

its centerpiece mutual recognition.

54:33

Kosovo does not recognize Serbia. Serbia

54:35

does not recognize Kosovo. We need

54:37

mutual recognition. On the other hand,

54:40

the crisis is not over because the

54:42

illegal structures of Serbia, which

54:45

are there since 1999, recently have been turned into

54:47

criminal gangs which

54:52

have erected 16 barricades in

54:54

mid-December. However, their

54:58

aggressiveness, which has increased,

55:00

is a direct expression of

55:03

their panic. They know that

55:05

the rule of law in our Republic is

55:08

stronger than ever and that's

55:10

why out

55:13

of fear they have been

55:15

erecting these barricades and again out of

55:17

fear they have been removing them. So

55:20

what is the actual state of negotiations?

55:22

Serbian President Aleksandar Vojcic said

55:25

that Kosovo couldn't remove

55:27

the barricades because if you attempted

55:29

to do so by force you

55:31

will face Serbia's power. What's

55:33

your reaction to that and is

55:35

your government capable of guaranteeing

55:37

safety in Kosovo? Of

55:40

course. Our government is guaranteeing

55:42

safety and security in Kosovo,

55:45

relying on our constitution and rule

55:47

of law and republican order. We

55:50

are a democratic government. Kosovo

55:52

has the most pro-European, pro-American

55:55

and democratic government in

55:57

the entire Balkans and perhaps...

56:00

also beyond this. On

56:02

the other hand our

56:04

police is willing, ready

56:07

and capable to remove

56:10

these barricades. However it was

56:12

K4, NATO-led military

56:15

force, which asked from us

56:17

a bit of time so they could

56:19

remove them. Finally it is

56:22

the illegal structures themselves with

56:24

uniformed people in masks and

56:27

armed as well who remove these

56:30

barricades and then of course president

56:32

of Serbia had to absolve

56:34

himself in front of

56:36

public in Serbia otherwise our police

56:38

wouldn't have waited for New Year's

56:41

Eve to remove all of these

56:43

barricades. Kerti raised

56:45

hackles in Brussels and Washington earlier this

56:47

year when his government moved to enforce

56:49

the euro as the only legal tender

56:52

in Kosovo. He

56:54

made no apologies for the change in

56:56

an interview at Bloomberg. This certainly

56:58

has made a lot of your allies

57:00

very alarmed on what happens next. We've

57:02

had criticism from the US, we've had

57:05

criticism from the EU, you've refused to

57:07

back down, is that your final word?

57:10

Central Bank of Kosovo made this regulation

57:12

so it's an independent state agency it's

57:15

not a decision of our government and

57:18

it was not made in January this

57:20

year but in December last year preparations

57:23

were going on and everything was

57:25

going smoothly precisely out

57:27

of success for preparing for

57:30

this new regulation. Belgrade

57:33

has set an alarming tone with

57:37

intention to cause ethnic

57:39

tensions just like we

57:42

have switched from car plates KM from

57:44

Milosavish time to new RKS we're gonna

57:46

do this as well. I mean the

57:48

concern is that a lot of people

57:50

that you really rely on right rely

57:52

on your partners in the EU and

57:54

the US have taken this at a

57:56

provocation I mean if they say you're

57:58

cracking down on Serbia. minority northern Kosovo.

58:00

You surely could call the central bank

58:02

and say like politically this is not

58:05

a good thing let's reverse it.

58:08

I cannot do that because

58:10

we are a democratic republic

58:12

and independent state agencies are

58:14

not subjugated to the government.

58:17

That's why we're gonna do

58:19

a smooth transition. We're gonna do

58:22

a hotline where

58:24

Serbs can call and complain

58:26

for whatever is not okay

58:28

according to them but we

58:30

cannot reverse this decision. So they

58:33

ask for more time and

58:35

we're giving more time and even

58:37

our American and European partners now

58:39

are saying that regulation

58:41

is legal because it's

58:44

fighting terrorist financing illicit

58:46

activities but we

58:48

should not be

58:50

too hasty in like absolute

58:53

implementation and this is what we're going we're

58:55

going to do throughout this month of February.

58:58

So I think that in terms of the future I'm not

59:00

I don't have a very positive

59:03

outlook and it gets very likely

59:05

to be bleak

59:09

the extent just like how bad it could

59:11

get I'm not sure I think that

59:13

one of the lessons I have learned

59:15

from this region and covering

59:17

it for a long time if things

59:20

can kind of remain just like at an

59:22

elevated level of bad without kind of ever

59:25

devolving into like full-scale war I

59:28

think the potential for

59:30

you know a return to war

59:32

in Kosovo is not

59:35

that high if for no other

59:37

reason than you still have the presence

59:40

of many thousands of K-4 troops that's

59:42

the NATO forces who've never left the

59:44

country of Kosovo they

59:46

and now they're actually quite

59:49

welcomed by the Serbian community as well

59:51

and why you can argue that's to

59:53

delegitimize Kosovo's independent

59:55

state maybe that's

59:57

why but the reality is both Into

1:00:00

certain extent, phones. Cause. For

1:00:02

albanians answer but sort of. Was.

1:00:04

The key for troops remain there

1:00:07

so I don't see that are

1:00:09

essential for like four skill wards

1:00:12

be like very high I see

1:00:14

a low level. Violent ushered

1:00:16

in the to have these

1:00:19

spasms of the of violence

1:00:21

you know where. You. Know

1:00:23

a couple handful of people are killed.

1:00:25

you can see the died on the

1:00:27

be potentially happening and needy been even

1:00:30

worse but I do not see that

1:00:32

and I don't think it's possible. You're

1:00:34

not gonna see a return to the

1:00:36

nineties in Leicester. Some dramatic scenes on

1:00:38

the international scene which would have to

1:00:40

be that world war or. A

1:00:43

real kind of the from expansion of

1:00:45

the of the current kind of see

1:00:47

confrontation between the west and Russia. Maybe

1:00:50

with an expansion of that can send

1:00:52

something really bad. Going up and

1:00:54

even then mean the Serbian military.

1:00:56

Is is now army is it

1:00:58

new shares intelligence with Nato the

1:01:00

on trying patrols of very their

1:01:03

me the Serbian army it is

1:01:05

engaged in move a memoir sort

1:01:07

of the. Exercises

1:01:09

with the Nato that has with

1:01:11

Russia recent years. well so I

1:01:13

don't see. The. Prospect

1:01:15

for like war been very high

1:01:17

and but I also don't see

1:01:19

the prospect of like resolution. Of

1:01:22

Kosovo getting. Would advance

1:01:24

whether it's a full. Meal.

1:01:27

Man recognition or even to factor recognition

1:01:29

of see that happening on an elf

1:01:31

don't see Serbia fully getting a what

1:01:34

it was a snack never again. I

1:01:36

mean first of those not a part

1:01:38

of survey a more like it's a

1:01:40

that's the reality for them You know

1:01:43

that? That's my take. On

1:01:45

up points. About. The wider

1:01:48

international scene. You. argue that

1:01:50

the image which is quite widespread

1:01:52

in the western media serbia en

1:01:54

route shoots eyes are liable russian

1:01:57

ally in the balkans is greatly

1:01:59

exaggerated So what has

1:02:01

really been going on under the

1:02:04

hood in terms of Serbia's geopolitical

1:02:06

positioning? I

1:02:08

mean, this is certainly one of the most fascinating things

1:02:10

about Pudžić. He's

1:02:12

kind of a really pioneering

1:02:14

avant-garde figure in the

1:02:17

sense that he's really played Serbia's

1:02:20

cards well in

1:02:22

the current geopolitical crisis, geopolitical

1:02:24

kind of realignments.

1:02:29

He's maintained very close

1:02:32

relations with the US,

1:02:34

with the EU, with

1:02:36

Russia and China, Turkey,

1:02:38

and also remember Belgrade was

1:02:40

the city that hosted the first

1:02:42

Non-Aligned Conference. They've really

1:02:44

promoted continued relations, positive

1:02:47

relations with the so-called global

1:02:49

south more than anywhere else in

1:02:51

Europe for sure. So he's

1:02:53

really kind of a skilled

1:02:56

player in the sense that he

1:02:58

has sort of maximized Serbia's position. The

1:03:01

idea of seeing Serbia one-dimensionally as a

1:03:03

Russian puppet state, I think as it's

1:03:06

often portrayed, is a

1:03:08

really, there's a reason why people kind of

1:03:10

do that. People

1:03:13

have the different reasons. I think it's really an

1:03:15

advantageous sort of propaganda point for a

1:03:17

lot of people. It's good for Serbia

1:03:19

because Serbia, I mean, Pudžić knows the

1:03:22

majority of the population, is

1:03:25

at best neutral

1:03:28

and probably sympathetic to Russia. If

1:03:32

not ardently pro-Putin, I think

1:03:34

if that's like overstated, there

1:03:36

is that segment of Serbian

1:03:38

society that's mostly kind of

1:03:40

anti-Western. As a result,

1:03:42

this is of course comes from NATO

1:03:45

bombing and sanctions. Kalashnikov,

1:04:00

a song by Yoran Bregovitch,

1:04:03

became a hit in Serbia after appearing

1:04:05

on the soundtrack for Emir at Costa

1:04:08

Rica's film Underground. Underground,

1:04:10

which won the Palme d'Or at

1:04:12

Cannes in 1995, was

1:04:14

an abridged version of a mini-series that

1:04:16

Costa Rica made for Serbian television. Don't

1:04:33

laugh to the sounds of

1:04:35

the balanced

1:04:46

piece! So,

1:04:51

my sense is that Serbia, to see

1:04:53

Serbia one dimensionally as a so-called Russian

1:04:55

puppet state,

1:05:18

is to sort of betray a

1:05:20

certain surface level understanding. Obviously,

1:05:23

people in the neighborhood who

1:05:25

want to retain Western

1:05:27

eyeballs on the region because

1:05:30

they don't trust Serbia for reasons that

1:05:32

are, again, well-rooted in recent history. Depicting

1:05:35

Serbia as a Russian puppet state

1:05:37

is good for that because, you

1:05:39

know, people are – unfortunately,

1:05:41

the West is kind of incapable of

1:05:44

engaging with anywhere in the

1:05:46

world through any lens other

1:05:48

than geopolitics and Russian meddling,

1:05:50

right? Like, you know, kind of –

1:05:52

it's a very simplistic way of seeing

1:05:55

the world, unfortunately. You kind of can't get

1:05:57

the Western tension unless you say, look like

1:05:59

Russia. There. Is. Here that.

1:06:01

Has the next front is Russian

1:06:03

influence very much present in Serbia's

1:06:06

yes at the it exists and

1:06:08

if you visit. Serbia,

1:06:10

As tourists you'll see you. Know.

1:06:13

Undeniable. Your seats. Proven T

1:06:15

shirts for sale you'll see is either

1:06:17

see no Us and for sort of.

1:06:20

The war in Ukraine will certainly sealed

1:06:22

for Phoebe that will make you feel

1:06:24

like okay of this. This place is

1:06:26

like him. much more pro Russia than

1:06:28

anywhere else in Europe. Innocent doesn't matter,

1:06:31

it's not wrong at it. Corrects characterization

1:06:33

terms like can a popular. Sentiment

1:06:35

Again, I consider. The

1:06:37

degree to which like actually supports rush

1:06:39

science war that for the smaller percentage

1:06:42

of people think people in Serbia very

1:06:44

tired of war is sort of fatigue.

1:06:46

And in general sort of wanting to

1:06:49

check out of stuff like that. but

1:06:51

still am I think what? you. Have

1:06:54

going on and Serbia is a sort

1:06:56

of hygiene. Combined. With

1:06:59

the heritage. Or sort of

1:07:01

not. alignment in ensured that I

1:07:03

hear from State department types you

1:07:05

know Serbia cannot sit on two

1:07:07

chairs at the same time what

1:07:09

they mean by that. If you

1:07:11

know Serbia cannot both you'll be

1:07:13

friends with Russia and Nato and

1:07:15

it. but it's like efforts you

1:07:17

did that exactly. I was Belgrade's

1:07:19

cove. That sort of the

1:07:21

kind of. Comfortable place for of for Belgrade.

1:07:23

it's room where it's been. For.

1:07:26

A very, very long time. And

1:07:28

they feel. The disposition,

1:07:31

you know is what gets some

1:07:33

respects and that military neutrality is

1:07:35

sort of. you know, almost a

1:07:38

part of it's identity now and.

1:07:40

That doesn't mean be young again.

1:07:42

They participate in Nato. Military.

1:07:45

Exercises I hang of it. The Secretary

1:07:47

General of Nato and and Footage hold

1:07:49

press conferences together all the time and

1:07:51

and nephews your potato. The thing about

1:07:53

was just for a positive Id you

1:07:55

hear within Us ambassador a scene about

1:07:57

footage. It's very positive to that. The.

1:08:00

this doesn't really sound like a Russian puppet state.

1:08:02

You don't really tend to like, this

1:08:05

isn't Belarus, in the sense of

1:08:07

like, Belarus is not participating in

1:08:09

NATO military exercises. You don't hear

1:08:12

Lukashenko being praised by

1:08:15

the State Department. Part of

1:08:17

this maybe, you could say

1:08:19

is frustration with Alban Kursi

1:08:21

in Kosovo. I know there's

1:08:23

a tension between Western, some

1:08:26

in the West and Kursi because they think,

1:08:29

hey man, can't you just be corrupt? And like

1:08:31

then things could be, could happen so much easier,

1:08:33

you know. So they kind

1:08:35

of are nostalgic perhaps for some of

1:08:37

the earlier leaders of Kosovo. I

1:08:41

think that the, to depict Serbia as

1:08:43

exclusively as a Russian puppet state sort

1:08:45

of, the world doesn't really make

1:08:47

sense if you do that. I

1:08:50

think that also Chinese

1:08:52

influence in Serbia is probably growing

1:08:54

much more rapidly than Russian. I

1:08:58

would say that also this idea that Serbia

1:09:01

and in

1:09:04

2008, the

1:09:06

sort of like liberal center left

1:09:08

pro EU party were

1:09:11

the ones who negotiated the sale

1:09:13

of state gas company to Gazprom

1:09:15

or like majority sale. So

1:09:19

this, there's really hasn't been dramatic

1:09:21

change in Serbian foreign policy at

1:09:24

all. Since Milosevic's

1:09:26

fall, I mean, they've

1:09:28

always said, you know, we

1:09:30

want to have relations with Russia. We want to

1:09:32

have relations with the US. We want to be

1:09:34

a member of the EU. That's pretty much it.

1:09:37

I mean, they've kind of always said the same thing. A

1:09:40

quarter of a million Russians, predominantly

1:09:42

anti-war Russians, predominantly anti-Putin

1:09:45

Russians and Queens and many activists live

1:09:48

in Belgrade since 2022. This

1:09:50

is the beginning of the war and the full scale

1:09:52

full scale invasion of Ukraine. So it's a little,

1:09:55

it's kind of an odd way of

1:09:58

kind of like

1:10:00

they've quite welcomed these people. I mean,

1:10:03

there has been, which is not to

1:10:05

say there have, haven't been some issues

1:10:07

with elements,

1:10:09

like, you know, really nationalist elements of

1:10:12

Serbia as kind of security services who

1:10:14

do have a direct line with Putin

1:10:16

and have kind of harassed some of these

1:10:18

more prominent Russian activists. But

1:10:21

in general, you know, you have a, Serbia

1:10:23

kind of opened itself up to this, like,

1:10:26

and it's completely changed the character of the

1:10:28

country. And in many ways, in a

1:10:30

very positive way, this new energy. So

1:10:33

yeah, I do think that it's a bit of a,

1:10:35

it's kind of called sort of like

1:10:37

a Putinist state or is very, if

1:10:41

you, again, if you go to Belgrade, if you

1:10:43

visit, you might kind of get the impression of

1:10:45

this kind of, you've seen this graffiti, you've

1:10:48

seen these t-shirts, okay, it's

1:10:50

a Russian public state, but that's behind closed doors,

1:10:52

I would say, even probably Serbia

1:10:54

has probably moved closer to the West

1:10:57

under Vutic in many ways than it has to

1:10:59

Russia. As

1:11:01

a final question, I just want to ask

1:11:03

you, you've recently left Serbia after

1:11:05

a number of years living and reporting from

1:11:07

the country. And I wanted to ask

1:11:10

if you had any general reflections from

1:11:12

your time there about moving on and

1:11:14

about what you learned from being in

1:11:16

Serbia, perhaps about the Balkans or about

1:11:18

Europe or about the wider world. Well,

1:11:22

I'm sure that I'll end up writing

1:11:24

more about it in the future at

1:11:26

some point. And I'll surely return there

1:11:28

as well. I'm taking some time to explore

1:11:31

other topics. You

1:11:33

know, the great thing about Serbia and about

1:11:35

my time there is that it really kind of

1:11:38

prepped me, I think, to

1:11:41

understand other themes that are

1:11:44

major and are making it more and more

1:11:46

important. You

1:11:48

know, I always

1:11:50

talk about Juliana Sánchez's quote, like the future

1:11:52

comes to Serbia first. Like there's a lot

1:11:54

there to look at, whether

1:11:58

it's a sort of, which is just... style

1:12:00

of sort of authoritarian neoliberalism or,

1:12:03

you know, this

1:12:06

questions about the role of NATO in

1:12:08

the 21st century and

1:12:13

how it sort of remit

1:12:16

and purpose to sort of shifted

1:12:18

over time and what that

1:12:20

might look like in the future. So

1:12:22

it's a really, I really feel that

1:12:24

I got front row seat

1:12:26

to a lot of changes that were happening

1:12:28

in Europe and maybe even the world through

1:12:30

Spain and Serbia. Obviously

1:12:33

this is a Serbia's China's

1:12:35

closest ally in Europe, you know,

1:12:38

Russia's as we've discussed already. As

1:12:40

I also mentioned, close relations

1:12:42

with many non-aligned states. So

1:12:45

it's really unique and it really kind

1:12:47

of permits you to see a whole

1:12:49

world. And so I really am

1:12:51

thankful for my time there and I'm sure that

1:12:54

I'll be back. It's

1:12:56

a very exhilarating place to

1:12:58

watch world events. And

1:13:02

I'm, yeah, I'm really thankful for my

1:13:04

time there and for kind of wide

1:13:06

view on the world that gave me

1:13:08

that I wouldn't have had elsewhere. Many

1:13:20

times to Lily Lynch without introduction to

1:13:22

the politics of modern Serbia, this

1:13:25

is another version of the march on the Drina by

1:13:27

the Serbian guitarist Radimir Mihailovic.