0:02

Had you actually read the email , you would

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know that the podcast you are about to listen to

0:06

could contain explicit language and

0:08

offensive content . These HR

0:11

experts' views are not

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representative of their past , present

0:15

or future employers . If you have

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ever heard my manager is unfair

0:19

to me . I need you to reset

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my HR portal password

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, or Can I write up my employee for

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crying too much ? Welcome to

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our little safe zone . Welcome

0:30

to Jaded HR

0:38

.

0:47

Welcome to Jaded HR , the podcast by

0:50

three HR professionals who want to help you

0:52

get through the workday by saying everything you're

0:54

thinking , but say it out loud . I'm

0:56

Warren .

0:59

I'm Jasmine . I'm Christina .

1:01

All right , we got it down . Third time , fourth time

1:04

. What

1:06

is this fifth ?

1:06

time a charm .

1:07

Tommy pressed the record button .

1:09

I was like wait , we didn't talk about who was

1:11

saying it first , who

1:13

?

1:13

goes first , but it worked . Improv

1:16

is good , so anyhow

1:19

. So it's been a while since y'all been online

1:22

with us or been on there with us . So

1:26

, yeah , I'm glad to get y'all been online with us . I've been on on there with

1:28

us , so , yeah , I'm glad to get y'all back . I'm glad you're willing to pinch hit for cc as

1:30

she is out , but we're going to have a series of pinch

1:32

hitters while cc is being

1:34

with baby . But before we get to

1:37

our show today , I want to announce

1:39

we have yet another new patreon

1:41

supporter , michael . So michael

1:43

joins bill and hallie , the original jaded

1:46

hr rock star , as our patreon supporter

1:48

. So thank you very much for your contribution

1:50

. You can be like them and support us on patreon

1:52

, but if you want to support the show , you can also

1:54

leave us a review , send us

1:56

a note on a story , a note , something

1:59

like that on social media . Let us know and we'll

2:01

get you on here and talk about your story . So

2:03

that is what I

2:05

want to cover for that today

2:07

. But we got a cool topic today

2:10

and it's inspired by a conversation

2:12

I had with a friend shitty recruiting

2:14

tactics and I really thought

2:16

that we would be beyond

2:18

shitty recruiting tactics , especially

2:21

in this economy , but

2:23

it appears not

2:25

, and we were talking on the phone

2:28

. I think both of you have some experience with shitty

2:30

recruiting tactics in this economy

2:33

, but I don't know . So I'll

2:35

go ahead and dive in with my friend's

2:38

story . They work at a position

2:40

at IT and they

2:43

got a call from a recruiteriter and they're happy in their job

2:45

. They weren't really looking to look there they don't know where

2:47

the resume got found or anything like that but

2:49

they engaged , said okay , let's , let's

2:51

just see where this goes . And they

2:54

had their phone interview with the inner

2:56

recruiter first round phone interview with the

2:58

company and then a second round in person

3:00

with the company . And then

3:03

a few days later they got called with

3:05

an offer and you think

3:07

, oh , it sounds like everything's working

3:09

the way it's supposed to . No , they told me

3:11

he had till five o'clock that day to

3:14

accept or decline their offer because they had

3:16

like five other well-qualified candidates

3:18

but he was their number one pick and

3:20

they wanted to have him . And

3:23

he's just said , no , I'm not

3:25

playing that game , that's not for me , I'm

3:27

not going to make a big decision

3:29

in a few hours like that . So he

3:32

just told him flat out no , and about

3:34

a week later he got another call from him and said hey

3:36

, we'd like to see if you're still

3:38

interested in position . He said , no , I'm not

3:41

.

3:42

When I said no , I meant no , no .

3:45

No means no .

3:48

So they called him back after

3:50

. He was like listen , this is not

3:52

for me . And they said

3:54

we have a new offer

3:57

for you , even though we said

3:59

they had to get through the other .

4:00

What four candidates ? Four or five ?

4:02

candidates To all tell no .

4:04

So I mean , it took them a minute

4:06

. Then they popped back in and said hey

4:08

, what do you think ?

4:10

Do you think five other people told them no

4:12

, or do you think there was no other people ?

4:14

There were no other people .

4:17

In this economy it's searching for

4:19

y'all . Both have very good

4:21

experience in recruiting , more recent than my experience in recruiting

4:23

. Both have very good experience in recruiting , more recent than my experience in recruiting

4:25

, and to have one good candidate , much less

4:27

five . I mean , if I had

4:29

the ability , I would hire five people if I found

4:32

them , and just put it up on operations . Hey

4:34

, your turn .

4:42

And it's not to say that they didn't find great candidates that could have filled

4:44

that role . But to me , when you are pressuring someone , that

4:46

pressure is because , yeah , we

4:48

might have some other candidates but we really don't want

4:50

to go with them . We really would like to go with you

4:52

, or this is a quick turnaround

4:54

. Christina , you know in government

4:56

, you know this is a quick turnaround . We

4:59

have to get this signed off today

5:02

or else we can't be it

5:04

. So it's not to say

5:06

that there weren't other people , but

5:09

I mean , there's a , there's a good

5:11

chance that no , it was . It

5:13

was just , especially with

5:15

how quick the phone interview

5:17

to the , to the in-person

5:20

or other virtual interviews that they were having

5:22

. That means they had to also do that

5:24

with . You know , at least those five other

5:26

candidates too . It's

5:28

just questionable to me .

5:29

I didn't think about it that way , but yeah

5:31

, you're on to something there . Why

5:34

?

5:35

are you looking like ?

5:35

that .

5:39

Okay , I want to back up for just a second . As

5:41

a recruiter , I hate this

5:43

story because it really it's

5:46

evidence against what I tell everyone

5:49

to do , because I think that your

5:51

friend started off great right . He

5:53

just was like let me , let

5:56

me respond to this message and see

5:59

what comes of it , and I

6:01

think that that's great . I think there's no harm

6:03

in that If you are working and you get a message from a recruiter I I think there's

6:05

no harm in that if you are working and you get a message from a recruiter . I

6:07

don't think it's nice to ignore recruiters

6:09

. I don't think it's nice to be rude

6:12

to recruiters and be like get

6:15

the hell out of here , what are you messaging me for

6:17

? Because they're just trying to do their job

6:19

. But to then take

6:21

that opportunity where someone did entertain

6:24

your message and then try to strong on them

6:26

into making a very quick decision when

6:29

it sounds like you weren't honest in the process

6:31

, like that's too much . That

6:34

is why people are more inclined to just

6:36

ignore our messages or just to tell us

6:39

like you're stupid , I hate you , I don't want to work with

6:41

you , so that kills this

6:43

whole . Like I don't want to work with you , so that that kills

6:45

this whole . Like I

6:47

don't know that recruiter , I have no idea who they are

6:49

, but I don't like you , whoever you are .

6:54

That's exactly it .

6:55

You know , jasmine and I talk about this all the time Changing

6:58

jobs is a big decision for someone to make

7:01

, and so if , especially if , I

7:03

recruited someone who is happily

7:06

employed , I will go

7:08

to great length to try to talk

7:10

them out of accepting an offer , to make

7:12

sure that they are truly interested in this opportunity

7:15

. So there is no , I need

7:17

a decision from you by morning

7:19

. There's no , I don't like the 24 hour thing

7:22

. You got to give people ample time

7:25

to like really think through . What are their questions

7:27

? What does this process look like ? How does

7:29

this impact them , how does it impact

7:31

their family , how does it impact their daily routine

7:34

and everything ? There's so much

7:36

to think through . It's such a big decision

7:39

.

7:39

And that was my thing with it too is

7:41

like you have to . It seems that in this situation it moved

7:43

very fast . And when you with it too is like you have to . It seems that in this

7:45

situation it moved very fast

7:47

. And when you're happy , sometimes

7:50

you don't think about the things that are

7:52

there making you happy until

7:55

you go to that other position and you're

7:57

like , oh , wait a minute . You know we

7:59

did talk about benefits , but I

8:01

had this at my previous

8:03

job benefits

8:07

, but I had this at my previous job and you said , as you know , this recruiter that

8:09

was trying to get me in you said this would be one thing . And then it turns

8:11

around and that's not true . So it's

8:13

like how can you really

8:16

truly get to know

8:18

the things that you need to know ? You , you

8:20

can't know everything about a company . To me , I don't believe

8:22

you can know everything about a company before you accept their

8:25

offer letter , but certain things that

8:27

you can know . If you don't have the time

8:29

to do that , right , there is the red flag

8:31

.

8:33

And they're not giving you the time , even if I

8:35

don't know if he asked hey , I need more time

8:38

, but he just said once they told me you have to tell me

8:40

by 5 o'clock today .

8:42

And he was like no , well

8:47

, me by five o'clock today . And he was like no , Well , let me make

8:49

this simple Before we get off the phone .

8:51

I can go ahead and tell you no , yeah , but this

8:54

economy I would think you're

8:56

going to . You know , nurture your candidate

8:58

and hold their hand and caress them

9:00

and send them nice little text messages

9:02

. I'm still thinking about you when

9:05

you've got that nice candidate that you

9:07

want in the recruiting world . You know that's

9:10

what you have to do these days . Well , that

9:12

was like two years ago .

9:14

Now the tide is turning where it's like

9:16

, oh well , the employee employers

9:18

have the upper hand again

9:21

, so we no longer need to

9:23

hold hands and we don't need to

9:25

reach out to people and see

9:27

hey , do you have any questions ? Now

9:29

it's just like you know , I'm giving

9:32

you this information , make a decision

9:34

, and I don't think that's really what

9:36

the market looks like , but I do think that's what people

9:38

think . That is what the market is now . Is

9:40

that , oh well , y'all had y'all

9:43

two , three years of working

9:45

from home . Y'all had y'all two , three years

9:47

of getting like

9:50

crazy , sign on bonuses

9:52

or salaries or all of

9:54

that , but now it is time for us

9:56

to take back . Y'all are going to come in this office

9:59

that I pay for , y'all

10:01

are going to hit the bare

10:03

minimum of what , what

10:06

we should or have to pay

10:08

, and y'all

10:10

are going to be okay with it , because now everyone needs a

10:12

job yeah

10:14

, do you , but do you think the employers are

10:16

in charge now huh

10:19

, what did you say ?

10:20

oh I I was asking do you think the employers really

10:22

are in charge now , or I still think it's

10:24

a candidate's market ? There's so many jobs

10:28

out there .

10:30

Listen , let's be honest . It is always the

10:32

candidate's market , because if you are

10:34

an employer and you need to hire people , candidates

10:36

always

10:38

have the power to say no . They

10:41

always have the opportunity to negotiate

10:43

. They always have another option

10:46

. Even if , I think all the way back to

10:48

2008 , when

10:51

it was not

10:53

looking good out there , the people who

10:55

wanted to find another job

10:57

had options

10:59

. I think

11:01

even in 2012

11:04

, when everything was coming back , they

11:06

still had options . They have

11:08

options . They don't have to accept

11:10

until we change

11:13

hiring to reflect what

11:15

the WNBA draft that is happening right

11:17

this minute and all of the employers

11:20

get to put us in one room and they get to

11:22

just pick us off one by one . It

11:24

is a candidate's market . Once

11:27

we move to a draft style hiring process

11:29

, it is no longer a candidate's market

11:31

. You just like cross your fingers and

11:34

hope the team that you want to work with

11:36

christina , you have just been drafted

11:38

to florida .

11:42

What is your reaction ? Oh

11:47

my god , you have to . Oh

11:49

, and it will be even better , like once you get

11:51

so far up in your career . You

11:54

now have to be the state HR person

11:56

, so you have been drafted florida's

12:00

hr go-to person I

12:03

would rather work

12:05

at the worst

12:08

mcdonald's you've ever been

12:10

at .

12:12

Okay , the worst mcdonald's

12:14

. Whatever you're thinking of , multiply

12:17

it by 50 . Do not draft me

12:19

to florida . What , what

12:21

in the world that I'm going to have nightmares

12:23

? Thank you , jasmine . Thank you .

12:27

Well , this sort of goes perfectly into

12:29

something we were discussing offline . The

12:31

WNBA draft is going on right

12:33

now as we're speaking , and how

12:36

that would work if

12:39

everybody's careers were

12:41

chosen by employers just lining

12:43

you up and you get virtually

12:45

no say in what , where you

12:47

go . I know their agents are working

12:49

business deals . Hey , my

12:52

client , if you , if you select them , my client

12:54

will take a five-year deal versus senior deal

12:56

. You know all that other . You know jerry mcguire

12:58

crap behind the the scenes

13:00

there . But that

13:03

would just be crazy . And then we were also talking

13:05

. The nba . Wmba

13:08

drafts are lottery system , so the

13:10

team's order is random .

13:12

But in , like the nfl , you go

13:14

to that and the last place

13:16

team gets the number one pick and if

13:19

you're that number one recruit , you

13:21

just got screwed you know what

13:23

, though , that is like

13:26

the picture

13:28

perfect , like that

13:31

plays out so perfectly because we've all worked

13:33

with that one person who like

13:35

doesn't really pull their weight in the office

13:37

and they just kind of do the bare minimum and

13:39

then they get like promoted or they get a raise

13:42

and no one's adding more work to their desk

13:44

so that like mid-tier player

13:47

that ends up getting draft to like

13:49

one of the best team where

13:51

he's not gonna have to do any work . Like hell

13:54

, maybe we're already living in a draft society

13:56

.

13:56

The recruiters are just the agents I

13:58

was gonna say I kind of feel like in

14:00

in certain aspects of it . This is

14:03

it's not as bad , but it

14:05

is a little bit

14:07

like the drafts , um , and not

14:09

just WNBAs , it's also

14:11

like NFL , like with

14:14

with picking benefits and

14:17

the salaries like , or

14:19

even with salary of companies

14:21

or states and cities that say

14:23

, oh , you have to . The range is from

14:26

one cent to two cents and

14:29

then you got to be drafted into that

14:31

. You're just like oh can

14:35

I ?

14:35

just retire .

14:38

Man we have lost our way , somebody's got to be the

14:40

HR director of Chipotle .

14:43

You know what I would take that over Florida ? I

14:45

was going to say I don't feel like that would be .

14:47

you know it has its ups and downs

14:49

, but no

14:52

, they're just always in the news for doing something

14:54

extremely stupid . Oh , that's

14:56

true .

14:57

But I can handle that . I can fix extremely

14:59

stupid I cannot

15:01

fix Florida . I cannot fix

15:03

Florida , I

15:08

cannot fix Florida , I cannot fix Florida . So you know , I think that it's always funny whenever

15:10

employers like feel like they start doing like you said , jasmine

15:12

. It's an employer's market . Now we get

15:15

to kind of do whatever we want in this deal

15:17

and they'd expect you a

15:19

very qualified , qualified , sought after person

15:21

, to make a decision by 5 pm . When

15:26

you

15:28

went through I don't know 30

15:31

rounds of interviews , it took

15:33

you 30 days to look at the first application

15:36

you got . Or you know , sometimes I

15:38

get a new client and it's like

15:40

we've had this job posted for three

15:42

months but no one's had time to go through the applications

15:44

to see who we should interview . And I'm like those

15:46

people who applied three months ago are like

15:49

they're gone . They're giving you

15:51

shitty reviews on Google right now

15:53

. They're not interested in coming to work for you

15:55

anymore . Like you haven't said a word to them

15:57

. You take your time on

15:59

doing everything possible . Or I

16:02

had a scenario last year . I

16:04

had a very , very difficult , highly

16:07

technical position to fill . I'm super

16:09

proud of myself . I

16:11

found a really good candidate , everything's going

16:13

well , he's enjoying it , them

16:16

, they're enjoying him

16:18

, this is like perfect

16:20

. And so they get into salary negotiations

16:23

and I back out because I

16:26

don't care , you guys work it out and

16:28

they come up with a really , really good offer

16:30

for him , so like a good enough offer

16:33

that he probably would have said yes

16:35

by 5 pm that day , you

16:37

know . I mean he couldn't turn it down

16:39

. And then he goes to

16:41

work and then suddenly they

16:44

have an issue that they can't resolve and

16:46

it has nothing to do with him , it has to do

16:48

with their customers . And so they're like oh

16:50

, we got to lay

16:52

this person off , so

16:56

specialized , there's nowhere else in the

16:58

organization for this person to go

17:00

. And now I'm

17:02

like we did all that work

17:04

and you didn't think

17:06

far enough through to see

17:08

this , but you expect candidates

17:11

to be okay with whatever you

17:13

put in front of you , like not this particular client

17:15

, but all employers . You want candidates

17:17

to be okay with whatever you put in front of them , but

17:26

then don't turn around and give them the same respect when it's time to have the reverse

17:28

conversation . And it makes no sense to me . Either you

17:30

want to be that personalized organization

17:32

where we're a family or whatever

17:34

people say , or

17:36

you don't , and it's okay if you don't . I

17:38

prefer if you don't , but that means you have

17:40

to take that into consideration through the entire

17:43

process , right ? You can't pretend you are

17:45

and then , when you have to make a difficult

17:47

decision , just kick someone to the curb with no

17:50

second thought .

17:52

That's why I have a really big issue

17:56

with what leadership expects

17:58

not only out of

18:00

candidates that they're looking to have in or

18:03

join the company , but also of their employees

18:05

that they currently have right now . And

18:08

one issue that this

18:10

might be going off on a tangent in a different

18:12

direction , but is when

18:14

you're showing more respect and more

18:16

appreciation to the people that you're recruiting

18:18

versus the people that you already have

18:20

on staff and thinking

18:22

about those employees . But leadership

18:25

, from what I have

18:27

seen , has taken

18:29

a really big downfall in

18:31

saying oh well , you

18:33

know , we're the leaders , we know everything

18:36

, we know what organizations are doing

18:38

. I'm talking to other CEOs so

18:40

clearly I know what other

18:46

companies are doing .

18:49

I talked to other CEOs who also don't

18:51

know the details of what's happening at the day-to-day

18:53

level .

18:55

I like done and that so

18:57

.

18:57

I was .

18:57

I was like sitting out

18:59

literally getting my hair done today and

19:02

I was listening to my stylist

19:04

talk to some other ladies about

19:06

. You know , they have an employee that

19:08

they're not really sure if the employee is

19:10

getting like they . They assign

19:12

the employee a task and in their

19:15

mind they gave the employee what

19:17

that employee should talk about doing a cold call

19:19

. You know , this is what I want you to talk

19:21

about . But then you don't go

19:23

and actually train that person and so when that person

19:26

says , hey , I don't really know what I

19:28

should say or how should I address if they come

19:30

to me with this , but you're expecting

19:32

them to just pick it up and understand it . You're

19:34

expecting candidates to just say , hey , I'm

19:37

gonna go out and research and do all of the things

19:39

that the recruiter or the hiring manager

19:41

or whoever it is should be talking and

19:43

telling me about . You're expecting a

19:46

candidate to do that and then also

19:48

say , hey , why do I have

19:50

to keep following up with you ? You claim you

19:52

want me , but you haven't

19:54

. We've had this phone screen but then

19:56

you haven't reached back out . Like

19:58

what are we going to do here ?

20:09

Well , ghosting is real . Everybody's talking about it . I mean , I hate these terms , but

20:11

ghosting is a real , legitimate term that has to be talked about

20:13

. I think because and I'm probably guilty of it

20:15

too my goal , if

20:17

I don't ever talk to you and I just screen your resume

20:20

and I don't not going to go forward

20:22

with you , click the button and you get an email , but

20:24

after we've talked , I'm going

20:26

to at least try to leave you a

20:29

message , say hey , I'm sorry we're , we're

20:31

going to go another direction , or this isn't going to

20:33

work for us , or whatever it is Something

20:37

in person . I'm not going to bend over backwards

20:39

and try and leave you five messages until I get

20:41

you , but I'm going to try and

20:43

make it as personal as I can Because

20:46

, honestly , you had

20:48

that candidate in your hand . There was some

20:50

interest on both ends . At some point

20:52

maybe next month , maybe next

20:54

year , there's going to be another opportunity that

20:56

that person would be the perfect fit for . You

20:58

can't go burning the recruiters

21:01

and the hiring managers , can't go burning

21:03

bridges with these candidates , because

21:05

in smaller areas

21:08

, like where I'm at , people are going

21:10

to know quickly oh , don't even apply there

21:12

, they're crap .

21:14

And you know what else too . It's not just phone

21:16

screens . Let me

21:18

say this to all recruitings

21:21

, hiring manager , recruiters , hiring managers

21:23

, whoever you want to be if you

21:26

have a candidate complete

21:28

a take home assignment

21:32

and that candidate

21:35

does that assignment , because a

21:37

lot of the times , like Tommy

21:39

, you send me an email and say , oh , I need you to do this , no

21:41

, we

21:43

can talk about it , but

21:46

I'm not going to do this assignment . But if you

21:48

have someone complete

21:50

assignments and then you

21:52

do not follow up with them , burn

21:56

down the building . Burn

22:01

down the building , you know those

22:04

assignments cannot be trusted .

22:06

They cannot be trusted . I saw a tweet it's

22:10

been a couple of months ago now and

22:12

somebody you know there's some smart

22:15

influencers , there's some influencers that

22:17

are just clickbait and there's some influencers

22:19

who , I think , actually believe this stuff

22:21

that comes out of their mouth . And

22:25

this woman in a leadership role somewhere

22:27

tweeted out something about an interview

22:29

hack and it's basically like

22:32

giving candidates the homework

22:34

of like whatever their problem is right now , have

22:36

four or five top candidates complete

22:39

it and then you don't have to hire anybody . And I

22:41

was like , oh my , my god , that

22:44

is a horrible idea .

22:45

that is so bad , that

22:48

is not a good way that it definitely

22:50

falls under the shady recruiting that

22:52

oh yeah talking about and just to

22:55

just to like before

22:58

we go on , do not burn

23:00

down these people building , because I don't have no insurance

23:02

money to give you .

23:04

So it was a gut reaction and I gave all my money

23:06

. I gave all my money to the IRS

23:08

today , so I can't help you either

23:10

.

23:12

Oh yes .

23:13

I cannot help you either .

23:15

Actually , I've heard

23:17

that a lot of places . If you give work

23:20

assignments or trial assignments to people , that's

23:23

compensable , they should be paying you

23:25

, even if it's for

23:27

that work . Especially , you know , if

23:29

you're doing something shady , like that person on Twitter

23:31

hey , let's just give everybody a sign . Then we get

23:33

five choices options . Hey

23:36

, let's let them work their age . Give them

23:38

your hardest problem and see who solves

23:40

it , and don't hire .

23:41

And then you're upset that that

23:43

candidates have these experience like we

23:46

. We get it . We know our recruiters

23:48

, our employers are not the same

23:50

. But when a candidate is going

23:52

through this experience and you know

23:54

they're having they're in this job market

23:56

and this job market . It's not easy . This

24:01

job market and this job market is not easy . It's . It's hard to continue

24:03

to get no's when you know you are a valuable person who brings a lot , who can bring

24:05

a lot to an organization . So it's still hard

24:07

to get the no's . But I

24:10

think we need to be like

24:13

, just have more grace with candidates

24:15

, not saying that candidates need to be able to walk over

24:17

people or whatever recruiters

24:19

are fearing , but like

24:22

, acknowledge the job market

24:24

and what it is okay

24:27

, time out .

24:27

Don't blame it all on the recruiters because

24:29

well , it's not just recruiters . No , they're not

24:31

hiring me because they're behind that recruiter telling

24:34

them like this is , this is , this is

24:36

and we don't have as much

24:38

pull as we would like to

24:40

think we do all the time .

24:42

No , I completely agree with that and I also think of

24:44

that in the hr sense , like a lot of people are

24:46

, like I can't believe hr did this , hr

24:48

did that . Hey , hey , sweets did

24:50

you know that hr is an employee

24:52

, that hr has somebody

24:55

they also have to report to , and a lot of times hr professionals have given the ceo or leadership or

24:57

managers a different you know outcome and say , hey , you should actually do this , have to report too

24:59

, and a lot of times hr professionals have given the ceo or leadership or managers

25:01

a different you know outcome and say

25:03

, hey , you should actually do this and they're like

25:05

, but we're going to do this

25:08

instead and you're going to have to go with that so

25:10

now you're well within their rights

25:12

to do right , but also

25:15

like let's be honest , like eight times out of ten

25:17

, you guys didn't even tell us what was going on until

25:19

it was done .

25:23

Anyway , that's a different episode . The hiring managers you

25:26

start recruiting and you get some candidates lined

25:29

up and then on paper

25:31

, that's not what we're looking for at all , and

25:34

like what ?

25:36

That's why an intake meeting . Recruiters

25:39

should be having intake meetings with hiring

25:41

managers . Every single time you get a job

25:43

order , I don't care how many times you've worked that

25:45

job order you have an intake call

25:47

with that hiring manager because otherwise

25:49

you will end up exactly where we're interested . You're

25:52

going to have a perfect fit on paper that

25:54

matches what you guys put down on paper

25:56

internally and they're going to be like not

25:58

even close , put

26:01

down on paper internally and they're going to be like not even close .

26:02

But then you have to think about those , those hiring managers or those in leadership

26:05

who are , like you

26:07

know what we need . I don't have time to

26:09

have this intake meeting with you to

26:11

tell you what need , what is

26:13

needed in this position . Like you

26:15

read the job description , just like I did

26:18

, from whatever it came

26:20

from .

26:22

So you know , in my very first

26:24

big girl staffing job

26:29

, I was really good at what I did . I

26:31

was good and I always required

26:33

the intake process right , because

26:36

I can't serve you as

26:38

a client if you don't

26:40

give me more information . And

26:43

we had like 22 offices at that company

26:46

that I worked for at the time , all spread across

26:48

the Southeast , and I was like outbilling everyone

26:50

and everyone else

26:52

was like but she turns work away . We don't

26:54

understand , like they truly

26:56

didn't get it . And I'm like well , because you've got your

26:58

team working on jobs that you haven't really truly

27:00

qualified because you didn't get it . And I'm like , well , because you've got your team working on jobs that you haven't really truly qualified because you

27:02

didn't have an intake call . So you have

27:04

them wasting their time

27:06

and wasting candidates time . And I don't

27:09

do that . I go after work that is

27:11

real that they can really have a conversation

27:13

about , and I drug that

27:15

with me to the corporate world . So

27:17

when I had multiple hiring managers that

27:20

I was supposed to serve as the recruiter

27:22

of the organization , I would just be like if you

27:24

can't sit down and answer these questions , I cannot

27:26

work on your job . I'm going to put it to the

27:28

side . You let me know when you have time

27:30

, because otherwise

27:33

you're going to get what I think you should have , and

27:36

you're probably not going to be happy

27:38

with that , because I have a totally different perspective

27:40

than you do and

27:43

I don't think enough recruiters

27:45

push back and I don't think enough recruiters

27:47

feel comfortable pushing back on that Like

27:49

that is a legitimate step in

27:52

the hiring process that should

27:54

be required everywhere . So

27:56

that is something that's not like a preference , that's

27:58

not like a I hope I have

28:00

this in my next job . That is something

28:03

that is required for you to be able to go

28:05

and execute your job well that knows short-term

28:07

disability rights , I guess

28:10

, and you're like no , I need a systems technical

28:12

developer .

28:24

I didn't know what that means .

28:28

I'm not going to lie . I was told

28:31

to my brother I didn't know where you're going with that . I was

28:33

like what , what an acronym

28:35

for whatever she's about to tell

28:37

us .

28:38

Well , I figured this is Jada . We needed

28:40

to have a little fun . Vince McMahon .

28:44

Oh gosh .

28:46

I don't know . Well , okay , so

28:48

what about this , though ? Because I literally

28:50

just came off of this , I don't know , a week ago

28:53

or so , I

28:56

am going to tell y'all something honestly the

28:58

worst part of my job is rejecting candidates

29:00

, and I know that feels like an answer a recruiter would

29:02

give you , but it sucks , and

29:04

especially like with my husband going through a job

29:07

search right now and like seeing him have to

29:09

navigate the rejection . Jasmine's

29:11

recent experience like it's so

29:13

much more personal to me than it ever has

29:15

been , even though I've always

29:17

taken that pretty seriously . But

29:20

I had a position I was just working

29:22

. Hopefully it'll be closed soon . We've got some

29:24

good candidates that we've narrowed it down to . 320

29:27

people applied , like in a week , to

29:29

this job , and so , like

29:31

at first pass through , you know when

29:33

they say stuff like oh , recruiters spend like six seconds

29:36

on your resume . This is why because

29:38

that first pass today , we're down . 320

29:41

candidates . I'm looking for the top things that are required

29:43

for that job , right , so

29:46

typically I'm just a . I'm

29:48

a team of one , right , I'm a team of one person

29:50

. So typically and I have like 20 applicants

29:52

I can get a little bit personal when I send you a

29:54

rejection email and I can say , hey , we're

29:57

looking for this and we didn't see this on your resume

29:59

. So you know we're going to go out with a different

30:01

candidate . But you know , stay in touch

30:03

or whatever the right message is . It's different

30:06

for each client . But when I have 320

30:08

of those to do , you kind of get like a

30:10

standard rejection email and

30:13

I hate it and it and it and

30:15

it bugs me . But

30:17

I think sometimes you

30:20

know , candidates don't know what

30:22

I'm doing on the inside and they're

30:24

just seeing what they get . And

30:27

sometimes we're upset for the wrong reasons

30:29

, because if it says minimum

30:31

qualifications or whatever these three things

30:33

are , and you know you don't have those three things

30:35

, can you really be upset with me

30:37

for giving you a generic rejection email ? I

30:40

don't know . What do you guys think ?

30:42

No , absolutely not . At least you're getting something

30:44

. I . I , I feel you

30:46

wanting to give a personalized

30:48

touch , especially in your , your situation

30:51

, your recruiting party company of one

30:53

, and you know

30:55

you don't want to burn those bridges with his clients

30:57

. But if you know , I've

30:59

got 25 plus years in

31:01

HR , I'm not going to apply for some

31:03

, I don't know accounting

31:06

job somewhere and expect to get an interview

31:08

. I don't hit the minimum

31:10

qualifications and and but

31:12

I , I also do think too

31:16

many people think that they have to hit each

31:18

one of the bullet points . Many

31:22

people think that they have to hit each one of the bullet points . Hey

31:24

, there's 10 bullet points . I hit five . I'm applying , baby , you know , let's see what

31:26

it is . Uh versus oh

31:28

. You know , I've got nine of these , but I don't have

31:30

the 10th one , so I'm not gonna apply . I . I

31:32

see people talking about that all the time , like you

31:35

know , especially as easy it is to

31:37

apply online .

31:38

At most places nowadays it's indeed

31:41

one click apply , oh my

31:43

god , wait a minute now , warren

31:46

, wait a minute now now

31:48

the ones who have to apply online .

31:50

Upload your resume .

31:51

Then type your whole resume in again , those 1990s

31:54

atrs systems , atrs reading those

31:56

like if , if companies still

31:58

have those , is anyone completing them ? Are they all

32:00

just giving up ?

32:01

I will say

32:04

so I will say the issue that

32:06

I found the most is like you would upload

32:08

the resume and they it would

32:10

put the information in , but it doesn't

32:13

put it correctly

32:15

all the time . So

32:18

those I would be more willing

32:20

to you know

32:22

correct . But there was one that

32:25

I would upload the resume and

32:27

like nothing would come over

32:29

and it would then have to . You then

32:31

have to go through and list every single thing and I

32:33

was just like you know what this

32:36

ain't for me , yeah

32:43

, but so for me , what

32:45

I found is no , I don't if

32:52

it's you know something big when I apply to something , if we have never spoken , then sending

32:54

me a generic email stating that you're going with

32:56

another candidate , okay , cool . Once

32:59

we hit a phone screen , I'm still

33:01

fine with you sending me an email . I like it

33:04

. I would like it to be personalized to

33:06

me , but I am still fine with just a phone

33:08

screen once . Once we get more than

33:10

a phone screen , maybe a phone call , but

33:12

I'm not really a phone call person , especially if you're about

33:14

to reject me for something . So that's why it's

33:16

a little different for me . That is fine if you would

33:18

still send me an email , or maybe you know

33:20

. Tell me , hey , I'm

33:22

about to reject you , so I can then just send you the voicemail

33:24

. But

33:26

no , I and hey .

33:27

Jasmine , can I give you a call to reject you real quick ? Yep

33:30

.

33:30

I'm gonna hang up , call me right

33:32

back and I'm gonna reject it in there . So it's

33:34

just if that works out . But I

33:36

think that is the issue with some candidates

33:38

. They are expecting you

33:41

to send them

33:43

exact details

33:45

on why they weren't selected and it's just like

33:47

you

33:50

have like nothing

33:53

and this isn't one of those . Oh , anyone

33:55

can learn this type of job . This is no . I

33:57

need this skill and you do not have this

33:59

skill , so okay

34:02

.

34:02

But so we have covered in this

34:04

conversation a lot and we have been around the world

34:06

, like we always do in our conversations , but

34:08

we've covered so many different variables

34:11

about how your application

34:13

is reviewed , how job orders are taken

34:15

, how jobs are posted , how you

34:17

can apply . So

34:22

that's what job seekers are up against

34:24

is . We've just shared so many different opinions

34:26

about the same process and it's not consistent

34:29

across the board everywhere . So , like my

34:31

heart goes out to people because I'm like

34:33

, especially when I see someone who has zero

34:35

like qualifications or maybe one qualification

34:38

from the job , I just immediately go

34:40

like okay , this person has probably been searching

34:42

for a job for a while now and they're just like desperate

34:45

and they're just applying to everything . And I

34:47

just wish I had the time to have a one-on-one

34:49

call with all of these people and say , hey , how can

34:51

I help you ? Because this is not the job

34:53

, this isn't the one . But tell

34:55

me what's going on . Of course , again

34:57

, one person shop . I do not have that kind

35:00

of time . Even if I had a team of people

35:02

, I probably wouldn't have that kind of time . But

35:04

it just sucks when you think of , like

35:06

you know , you've got recruiters out

35:08

here and maybe , maybe it wasn't

35:10

a shady recruiter , maybe it was a hiring manager

35:13

giving that recruiter a lot of pressure

35:15

to get this wrapped up , for whatever reason

35:17

. Like Jasmine's example earlier , they

35:19

wait until the last minute . They've got to get this locked

35:22

up or they can't proceed with , like whatever

35:24

new business idea or proposal

35:26

or whatever . But

35:28

also like I I still encounter

35:31

, like some old school hiring managers who think

35:33

that recruiters should be doing that activity

35:35

to people to get them to say yes

35:37

to a job offer or like I see

35:39

it in staffing , sometimes , when I'm

35:42

like you know , the hiring manager will

35:44

be like you need to let your candidates know that

35:46

if they turn this down like they're making

35:48

you look bad , no , no , no

35:50

, no , no . Really , if they turn

35:52

this down after they interview with

35:54

you , that's

35:57

on you , buddy , that's not on me . They're

35:59

not making me look bad . They're making an informed

36:01

decision for themselves . But there's

36:03

all this . The point is , there's all this conflicting

36:05

information and there's so many people

36:07

who have their hands in the process and a lot

36:09

of times it's just a bad hiring process

36:12

, like what the hell are candidates supposed

36:14

to do ?

36:16

it's tough , it's tough I

36:18

don't know what candidates are supposed to do like

36:20

seriously being in this , and

36:23

I am very , very

36:25

grateful and blessed that

36:27

I was able to find a position in

36:29

the time frame that I have , because I see

36:31

, you know , I get on LinkedIn every single day and

36:34

people are out there and they're just it's been

36:36

six months since my layoff , it's been over

36:38

a year since my layoff , and it's like you

36:40

go and sometimes I really like I will go and

36:43

look at what they have and I'm like , wow

36:45

, of course I have the stuff , like

36:47

I don't know what this person is doing , but from

36:49

what I can see on their background , it's like , you know

36:52

, they have some really good experience

36:54

. I saw , right before we got on this conversation

36:56

, I actually saw someone tweet and

36:58

they had a picture up of a LinkedIn profile

37:01

. And actually saw someone tweet and they

37:03

had a picture up of a LinkedIn profile and it was like this person stayed here for like

37:05

six months . Another person stayed here for well , they , the same person , stayed

37:07

at another company for nine months and

37:09

they were the person that posted . It was like

37:11

do do candidates think

37:13

that this job hopping is , you

37:15

know , good for

37:17

for them ? And I'm like , well

37:20

, first of all , one position says it was a contract

37:22

. So if that was a six-month contract , then

37:24

they knew what they were going to complete

37:26

yeah , yeah . And then the other one . Again

37:29

we're in . We are in an

37:31

area in which you don't know that that

37:33

person decided to leave that job after nine

37:35

months . That person could have had

37:37

a really great , enjoyable

37:40

experience and got laid off

37:42

due to a number of reasons , or

37:44

had a crappy manager and

37:46

the manager is a hater and was like you know

37:48

what we got to find a way to get you up out of here

37:50

. Like y'all people

37:52

you know , and not just recruiters , but

37:54

like these LinkedIn influencers and everything are

37:57

just putting so much on what

37:59

people have on a piece of paper which

38:01

, yes , yes , there's somewhere to start , but you really

38:03

don't know what a person is going through

38:05

Just by looking at their resume . You don't know

38:07

their background , you don't know the the

38:09

issues that they've had at workplaces that's

38:12

due to no fault of what they

38:14

are trying to do as a candidate or as

38:16

an employee . Like , I think

38:18

we're just putting so much expectations

38:21

on on employees

38:24

or candidates and then , as companies

38:26

, we are not putting ourself

38:28

or holding ourselves to those same standards

38:30

just because we make a certain amount of money . It's

38:33

just like , oh well , we can

38:35

do what we please . And I think that

38:37

is where truly the

38:39

big issue of you

38:41

know , work is . But

38:44

you know , like I , said earlier I'm on a leadership

38:47

kick , so we'll

38:49

see understandably

38:53

so I I think you

38:56

, you have the the problem .

38:58

You , for years we'd shit on millennials

39:00

because they were the first job hopping

39:02

group , and then after

39:05

that , now we're shitting on Gen Z . They're

39:07

the same way . But now

39:09

you know , the millennials

39:11

are in their 30s and 40s , they've settled

39:13

down and they're you know , they're

39:16

here and they're kicking ass .

39:18

Well , first of all , Warren , we were always doing that

39:20

. So I mean hello , yeah , yeah , yeah , kicking ass and well first of

39:22

all , we were always doing that , so

39:24

I mean hello yes , yeah

39:26

, yeah , yeah .

39:27

As an old xer , I just remember

39:29

all these conversations about the , the kids

39:31

coming out today and now I'm hearing it to go . You

39:34

know soon , you know they're going back that

39:36

the next group of kids they're the alphas

39:38

and I think they're entering the job force

39:40

in like five years or something like that

39:42

like yeah , and so this

39:45

is .

39:45

This is also I mean , this is a classic

39:47

hiring mistake , and I believe

39:49

this is a classic hiring mistake that

39:52

enables the shitty behavior

39:54

that we see sometimes from recruiters or hiring

39:57

managers is that employers

39:59

want to hire what they

40:01

want to hire . You have

40:03

got to change with the

40:06

labor market . You can't

40:08

just will something

40:10

into existence as an employer

40:13

. So

40:15

for these Gen Z folks , specifically

40:18

for Gen Z , I just had

40:20

this conversation today with someone who wanted to know

40:23

where they fell in the market with

40:25

return to work , stuff , okay

40:29

. And so I'm talking to them and I'm like , okay , but we're

40:31

going to see the ramifications for

40:33

this for years to come , because it's not just

40:35

, oh , those of us millennials

40:37

and up who were already in the workforce and

40:39

went home for a couple of years . That was sparked

40:42

by COVID . It's also the fact that

40:44

we have college students who finished college

40:46

remotely when they started in person

40:48

. We have high school students who finished

40:50

high school remotely when

40:52

they started out in person , and so

40:55

that is their world . Now they

40:57

expect hybrid

40:59

to be an option for almost anything

41:01

that they do , because that's

41:03

what they've experienced and

41:06

it was successful for most people

41:08

and I know some people are outliers

41:10

and they didn't have a good time and they want to be in the

41:12

office or they want to be , you know , in person

41:14

or whatever , but most people

41:17

are to the point where they're going to expect hybrid

41:19

. So , yeah , maybe you can force

41:21

all your millennials and up back into the office

41:24

, because we know a different time

41:26

in the workplace . These

41:28

kids are coming in with different expectations . These

41:32

kids are coming in with different skill sets , different mindsets

41:34

, different work ethics , and you can't

41:36

just keep hiring these people and then

41:38

firing them because they're not doing exactly what you

41:41

wanted them to do . You have got

41:43

to change with the labor market

41:45

and that doesn't mean , like Jasmine

41:47

said earlier , that candidates get to come in and

41:49

then get to walk all over us . It means that maybe

41:51

you have to do more training than you had to do in the

41:53

last five years . Maybe you have

41:55

to take more entry-level people . Maybe you have to develop

41:58

an internal labor pool for

42:00

a specific skill set that you're not seeing in the job

42:02

market anymore . Maybe you have to get creative

42:04

in a lot of different ways to make

42:07

sure that you're shifting to whatever

42:09

the available talent is .

42:12

Yep .

42:13

Otherwise , you're just going to be making poor decisions .

42:17

Exactly , exactly . Well

42:19

, I was just going to add one

42:21

personal , the only shitty recruiting

42:24

experience I ever had as a candidate . It

42:26

was my first job that I took out of college

42:29

. I went to work as a retail

42:31

manager , which I am not

42:33

well suited for that at

42:35

all . But here's why

42:37

, and I knew that . I knew I'm not a

42:39

customer service , people pleasing type

42:42

person . I

42:50

knew that . But the line the recruiter gave me was the pathway

42:52

to the whole corporation starts

42:54

in the store . And so I got recruited as assistant

42:56

store manager . That's a great line , yeah , and that's

42:58

all it was , was a line . I was assistant manager on my second year review

43:00

, the district manager sat down with me and

43:03

he said well , you're on the short list for getting

43:05

your own store . And dah , dah , dah I'm talking

43:07

to these future plans . It's great , but that's

43:09

not what I want to do . I want to . You know my degree's

43:11

in HR , I want to get into HR . And

43:14

the recruiter told me that you know the

43:16

pathway . The

43:22

whole corporation starts in the store . He says , says I've been with

43:24

the company 30 some years I've never seen

43:26

someone go from the store to corporate and and that was I my resume hit

43:29

the market like the next morning and

43:31

I was not there much longer after that

43:33

yeah , that's interesting

43:35

.

43:35

so I didn't have that experience

43:37

of me , of

43:40

them telling me that I would go to

43:42

corporate . But for a my

43:45

last year or two

43:47

with Chuck E Cheese I

43:49

really , really wanted to

43:51

become an HR person at Chuck E

43:54

Cheese .

43:55

Oh , Whatever

43:59

, I never really pursued it .

44:01

No , I was so serious I thought so checker

44:04

cheese corporate is they

44:06

were I don't know if they still are was in texas

44:09

and I was like , oh my god , that would be like

44:11

amazing , I'm gonna move out to

44:13

texas , I'll be an hr person

44:16

for check it out , like I was . I was

44:18

ready and willing and

44:20

I never pursued

44:22

it .

44:23

But that's actually a good

44:25

line Warren .

44:25

I mean I feel like more companies are

44:27

. They might have that .

44:30

You might hear that some more who

44:33

can I , who can I work that in for with

44:35

my current client base ? I don't know it's a good line

44:38

I ? I got a little nervous , jasmine . I thought

44:40

you were about to talk about your last recruiting experience

44:42

and I was like what are you

44:44

about to say ? How

44:48

would you rate your recruiter on a scale of one

44:50

to 10 ? 10 being the best ?

44:53

Oh , I can't say what I was about to

44:56

say , but the recruiter was a 10 . I can

44:58

tell you that much .

44:59

You're putting those

45:02

.

45:06

Taylor .

45:07

Swift parts down .

45:11

I don't know the kids need something different now

45:13

.

45:13

Okay .

45:16

All right ? Well , I don't know my

45:19

brain .

45:20

it's hard for my brain .

45:21

The recruiter thought you were a 10 , well , I don't know . My brain it's hard for my brain

45:23

.

45:23

The recruiter thought you were 10 , too , but I'm sure I gave you

45:25

a line . But the difference is , whatever

45:27

line I gave you , I believed it . I

45:29

didn't make something up , I

45:32

believed it .

45:33

Wow , we've gone so long today . This

45:36

is a good episode . I've had a lot of fun and we've

45:38

got to get you all back more often . It's been over a

45:40

year . I think this is the last time we we had

45:42

y'all on , and it's just so much fun

45:44

.

45:51

So I think it's been over a year

45:53

since we've recorded anything .

45:54

You have the open door invitation . Hey Warren , I

45:56

want to rant about whatever it is . You've

46:00

got it . You've got an audience right here . All my dozens

46:02

of listeners , Dozens

46:05

of listeners .

46:06

We love your dozens of listeners . We love them

46:08

yeah .

46:11

We're no longer ranked in some of these countries

46:13

. I haven't looked at the ranks lately . We haven't

46:15

had a review in a while , so if you enjoyed this episode

46:17

, give us a review If you didn't

46:19

enjoy it , don't review that episode , thank you .

46:20

No , enjoyed this episode . Give us a review . So if you didn't enjoy it , don't review that episode , thank you

46:23

no , I'll read a one-star review .

46:25

The only one-star review we've ever gotten didn't

46:27

have any narrative to it . We've gotten all

46:29

our reviews are five stars except for one

46:31

. It's like our apple rating is like 4.8

46:34

or something like that and the

46:36

person didn't have the nerve to to

46:38

tell us I would have read it . I would have had some fun with it . But anyway , that's probably why

46:40

they didn't have the nerve to tell us why I would have read it . I would have had some fun with it .

46:41

But anyway , that's probably why they didn't write it .

46:46

Well , I think we'll go ahead and land

46:48

this plane for right now . Thank you

46:51

so much for being with us and pinch hitting . This has

46:53

been so much fun , and

46:55

let's see best practice tonight . Don't

46:58

be a shitty recruiter . That

47:00

sums it up . And don't be a shitty recruiter . That sums it up . And don't be a shitty candidate . Just

47:04

don't be shitty . Don't

47:06

be shitty . That works too

47:08

. The intro and outro

47:10

music is the underscore , orchestra

47:12

double the double and our voice artist is

47:15

Andrew Colpa . Want to thank both of them

47:17

, but , as always , I'm Warren

47:19

.

47:19

I'm Jasmine , I'm Christina and we're here helping you

47:21

survive HR one . What the fuck moment both of them .

47:22

But , as always , I'm Warren , I'm Jasmine , I'm Christina and we're

47:24

here helping you survive HR one . What the fuck moment at

47:26

a time .