Dr. Winfield Bevins joins the show to talk about the connection of liturgy and mission. Points he highlights in his new book, Liturgical Mission: The Work of the People for the Life of the World.

TRANSCRIPT

0:01 Welcome to Jessup Think. Im your host Mark Moore and your co host Rex Gurney wrecks on the show today we're excited to have Dr. Winfield Bevins from Asbury Theological Seminary. He is director of church planting there. And he's here to talk about his new book liturgical mission.

0:17 And I was really impressed with the book. And one reason was because he basically name checks every author that I read, and so it's got to be a good read if you do that.

0:25 Definitely. He's well read and just a really good voice on liturgy and worship and how that connects us and sends us out to mission. So I really hope you enjoy the show.

0:45 Yeah, Dr. Bevins is great to have you on the show. And really excited to kind of talk about your new book and looking at liturgy and mission bringing those two together. As we get started it would it be great to kind of hear your story. You're at Asbury seminary now working with church planning. So I'd love for you to kind of tell our listeners just a little bit about what you got going on in Kentucky.

1:10 Yeah, I I'm in Kentucky. And so prior to come in here, my wife and I planted a church in a little place called the Outer Banks, North Carolina little stretch islands. And

1:22 nowhere that is vacation land. Yeah.

1:25 Yeah. So I was a surfer, right. So I hung up my surfboard and moved to Kentucky. And we've been here about seven years now. And it's, it's really been amazing. So I oversee a global church planning initiative, where we've worked with, we've helped train over 1000 leaders in 20 different countries. And so I work with a lot of different models and expressions of church. But I'm also an Anglican in an Anglican priest. And so I have this love of liturgy and mission. And while I work with all across kind of the denominational spectrums of you know, all sorts of denominational backgrounds, I really have a passion for both of those things. And that's kind of the heart of kind of what comes together in that book. So, yeah,

2:19 so most of our students here actually don't come from traditions that most people would associate with them. liturgical traditions, although that word liturgy I mean, everyone has, we have a liturgy in chapel and same thing every single time. So, but one time, we actually had someone that you mentioned the book, Todd Hunter come in and a chapel here at Jessup. And it basically was trying to kind of introduce students to just some different elements of worship and stuff. And it actually went over really well. At least, I think so.

2:51 Yeah. Well, Todd's a good friend. So I'm sure he did well.

2:59 With the Anglican Church, that you're a part of what, talk a little bit more about that. Is it like the Anglican Church? Is it

3:08 you know, honestly, that's probably a whole podcast ended up.

3:13 Right, right. You know, because you

3:15 have the Anglican traditions 80 million members worldwide. Yeah, you, you know. So yeah, I'm a part of kind of a new emerging Anglican movement in the US, that is connected to the global Anglican Communion. And, but really, honestly, I'm working all across, you know, different, you know, I work with Church of England. I, you know, I do a lot of work in us, but I'm actually a member of for the center, church multiplication, which is out of the Diocese of London, I do a lot of work with them. And

3:55 last Lambeth conference. You know, I

3:58 didn't, I did not know.

4:02 Most of our readers wouldn't have listened,

4:04 they would have no idea what the context is for that. But yeah, so I, you know, I do stuff with kind of key kind of mission thinkers in the Church of England. But also literally around the world, which is really cool. It's a tradition that is rooted, but also is a very global and multicultural church, which is fun, because it just immediately connects you to a family of believers from around the world.

4:32 Yeah. And with our, with our kind of a lot of our students and alumni who maybe don't come from a liturgical background, maybe, right. It's kind of the beginning we can we can lay a foundation for that, like when we use the word liturgy, what do you mean by liturgy? And how are you using it in the book?

4:54 Yeah, so like you said, everyone has a liturgy Every church has, you know, a way that they worship with they realize it or not, when I speak in terms of liturgy, there's a historic framework for how Christians have worship for the majority of church history. And it's a fourfold framework that you have kind of a balance of gathering, worshiping here hearing the Word of God, then there, then you go to the table, which is the Lord's, the Lord's table, then there's a sending out. So there's kind of like a fourfold movement, gathering, hearing, feeding, or celebrating and then sending. And what you see is when you look at the majority of church history, this is how Christians have worshiped. And so in essence of liturgy, the word liturgy means work of the people, it's liturgy, oh, it means, you know, what God's people do together for a common purpose. And when things are recovering this book is the word liturgy, actually, in the original context was a secular word, which meant the common work of the people for like the common good. So it had almost a, almost a mission con connotation to it. And so kind of what I argue is, by recovering this framework, the liturgy, actually, the movements of the liturgy actually can move us toward mission if we understand it in that way, and teach it and reappropriate. And, you know, and contextualize it, you know, I think, no, I'm not arguing for you know, let's worship as, you know, certain way and every church looks the exact same. What I love about the this fourfold framework is, churches around the world literally use this, all tribes, nations, I've seen, and part of my research and churches that I've looked at in the US, is churches of all different denominational backgrounds are beginning to recover the liturgy, because there's a formative nature to it that forms this as believers but also ultimately forms this permission. Right?

7:08 Yeah. And in the beginning of the book, you kind of talk about this liturgical renewal that has been happening for several decades. And it was interesting, as I was reading it, I, I was have been a part of that liturgical renewal. I grew up in Indiana, you know, was was part of a very small country church, that was a branch off of the friends. And even what's interesting is growing up, I remember them saying specifically, and it was like 17 people in the in the room, I was blood related to like 15 of them. And I remember them saying, like, they didn't publish, like, they wouldn't publish a order of service, because they wanted the spirit to move, right. So in a sense, almost like anti liturgical. But when I got to college, I went to Indiana Wesleyan there. And my junior year, I started going to an Episcopal Church, and just fell in love with the liturgy and fell in love with the Book of Common Prayer. And it was just and that would have been mid to late 90s, that that was happening. And I didn't know about Robert Weber. I didn't know about the Chicago call. But it was just something that that I felt and was experiencing. And a lot of my friends were we were kind of I think you're looking for something that was rooted in history that was rooted in structure that was different than just freeform worship. And it was, and I was wondering, maybe your thoughts on that like, particularly in like 80s and 90s, maybe as this liturgical renewal was forming in the evangelical community as well. At what do you think were some factors may be for that?

8:53 Yeah, I think there's some sociological factors. With, you know, we're experiencing, you know, right now, you know, decline of, you know, rapid decline of mainline denominations, you have kind of the splintering of the evangelical movement. So you have kind of disenfranchisement that's kind of is being experienced across North American culture. So in the 70s, again, that's what I look at in that chapter is that this isn't just kind of a fad. It's not just something that's just Oh, liturgies cool, you know, like, it's like the new silver bullet that's gonna save your church. No, actually, I think it's a part of a larger historic movement within the church, where Christians who are coming from Free Church backgrounds, they're just they're burn out on all of the splintering and all of the kind of, you know, the This kind of inward thinking and the fights and the splits and they're beginning to look backwards. Now, you have the rise of the religious nones, that's also happening in North America, you've got people leaving the church, young adults leaving the church in mass. But what you're seeing is there's this movement that's happening all across denominations, and backgrounds where rather than leaving the church, there's actually something leading them back to kind of recovering the historic roots and foundations. Now, some of these young adults, some of these, you know, I say, young adults, I'm not a young adult, but I mean, there's people kind of Rh that are like, again, Weber all the way down. That are, some of them are embracing the high church traditions. You know, Catholic, Eastern, Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopalian, however, the vast majority of them are resourcing, or drawing from these ancient traditions, to incorporate those practices into their local context, and actually think that's a really good thing. Now, what I'm trying to do is provide a framework for people to do it in a way that it's not just hodgepodge, or like, right, you know, weaving together some quilt, and then it ends up being like, What the heck is this? You know, it's like, you know, we're not advocating just cutting and pasting, there's actual theological and historic framework to it. I wrote an earlier book called ever ancient ever knew, the allure of liturgy for a new generation were interviewed hundreds of young adults. So I kind of looked at what what are some of the factors leading toward it. But I actually believe that in also my study of movements, you know, I have this other lens that I put on as a missiologists. And I study kind of movements from sociological perspectives. And I actually think there's a spirit led dimension to this, that good friend of mine, his name is Emilio Alvarez just came out with the book, he calls it the ecumenical ism of the spirit. There's something that's happening where Christians are wanting to kind of recover these foundations, because I believe there's a unity factor in recovering creeds and, you know, common frameworks of worship and mission. So I think on one hand, there's some sociological dynamics. But on the other hand, I actually think there's a renewal movement that's happening among low church, say evangelicals. That is, and it's, it's happening everywhere. That's the fascinating thing is, I'm seeing it happening with people. They don't know anyone else is doing it. You know, they don't realize that, you know,

12:50 there has to be a movement of the spirit. It's not like copycat stuff, right?

12:53 I was on an island, you know, literally, we're on an island, and we kind of started doing this stuff. And I was like, Wow, I'm not the only one. And we, we had kind of taken this journey as a new church plant. And then it was only, you know, few years into, like, beginning to recover tradition that I discovered the works like Robert Weber, or Thomas Odin, and others that had been doing this for a number of years.

13:25 I have always thought that there's a there's a real hunger for recovery of something, you know, timeless and something that's sort of connected to church history. I'm a church history guy. So yeah, I approve of that. You know, I kind of think that, you know, in the sort of secret sensitive, contemporary church movement, the way of worship, and that was actually aimed at people like me to try to keep people like me, because I'm a middle baby boomer, sort of in church, right? But then, you know, my children and millennials, Gen Z is like, if I want to go to a rock concert, or go to a rock concert, if I want to go to church, I actually want something that's just different and something that's deeper and something that's timeless. And I think that's very healthy, actually.

14:10 Yeah, it's, it's, you know, the liturgy is actually countercultural. And I think that's part of the draws, like, it's not about you, it's actually God centered exactly as to Seeker worship, you know, it's like, you know, it's all about me, whereas the liturgy is all about God. And, and so I think that's another part of that appeal. There's also a longing for mystery and the transcendence you know, and so, there are a lot of these factors you know, that I discovered as I kind of interviewed people, what led them to kind of recover tradition. You know, one of the one of the pieces is what I call just orthodoxy. You know, simple Orthodox, you know, the Creed's, you know, these are simple statements of the faith. that Christians have affirmed throughout the ages. And and believers are wanting to stand with what the Church has always affirmed. And I think there's a hunger for historic rootedness. There's a hunger for formation and discipleship that some of these traditions provide. That's, you know, these things together are kind of leading people toward this.

15:23 Yeah, I want to take a little shift because and you sort of started that with with using the word mystery and sort of the, the word mystery connected with the liturgy connected with transition and tradition. And one thing in your book that I really resonated with was your talk of enchantment and disenchantment, and, yes, the connection between sort of a sacramental view of the world and and, you know, enchantment of the world. And in we live in this sort of a disenchanted society right now, or at least here in the Global North, in other places, it's not that way. In fact, one thing that I have always thought was important, and some of this stuff doesn't come from me, it comes from Philip Jenkins and some other folks. But you know, what happens when you encounter a Christianity that hasn't gone through the enlightenment? And in a lot of places, it sort of hasn't? Timperley? It obviously is on the other side, but some people sort of didn't get the memo about that. And what can we learn from that? You know, in connecting with with that, because that's been the case for the majority of church history. We're sort of the outliers here. We're actually not in the mainstream. Yeah.

16:39 Well, yeah, I mean, in a, you know, a vast majority of the world's population still has kind of the sacramental worldview, right? Where they, there's, there's this, there's a view that God is present with us and the ordinary things of the world. And the implications of this is how we view the planet, how we might view our global neighbors. And so I think there's something in that the recovery of the sacraments and tradition, that again, it helps us recover this sense of mystery to sense of the world isn't just about me. Right? went off into the universe, right? Yes. And it's a god infused world. And, again, for most of us, in the West, we live in a disenchanted world, you know, we, you know, people would rather look at animatronics at Disney World, rather than a real animal. It's like, do I want to see a real elephant? Or do I want to see a mechanical elephant, I want to see the mechanical, you know, and it's like, you know, we don't even know what to look at the beauty of a flower or, you know, you know, look at the the mystery of a bird flying and, and I think the gift of liturgy is it causes us to pause, and to pray and to reflect. It's a reflective form of worship. And many times your more liturgical traditions also have a much higher appreciation of aesthetic beauty, and religious art. I think the recovery of the arts is really significant in the conversation as well.

18:16 Yeah, yeah, that I think that's, for me something, you know, in the 90s, kind of growing up and coming out of kind of free church and in evangelicalism. And what drew me to that liturgy was that rootedness in history, but also Yeah, the recovery of Beauty and the recovery of tangible things, in images that I could that I could use that would help remind me that, yeah, God is here, and God is present. And God is present in in every moment. And I kind of missed that. And it was easy to separate like, a church from Monday through Saturday. And for me, that liturgy, and then even common prayer and the Book of Common Prayer helped me recognize, recognize that and also gave shape to a devotional life, that engaged depth to a devotional life that wasn't just as good as our daily bread was, and it helped me out in college, right, you know, I got one person, you know, it helped me at least create a rhythm. But that that book on prayer helps, you know, kind of draw that in. You also kind of connect kind of maybe along with with mystery, you connect story to liturgy. Yep. And, and then myth, you kind of tell this the story of CS Lewis's conversion, and that idea of myth, being story again, not being not true, but the power of the story of God. Yeah. And yeah, I'd love to love for you to tell our listeners more kind of more about that.

19:54 Yeah. So in many ways, the liturgy, you know, helps with we narrate our lives we live, you know, as you mentioned, in a disenchanted world, part of that is we live in a world where people don't know what story they belong to, right? And, you know, a lot of people who were raised in say, evangelical or low church, Nanda Nam or charismatic backgrounds, you know, the sermon, you know, is based on whatever the whim of the preacher is for that Sunday, or the sermon series is like, you know, right, it's a good idea will preach on this, whereas in the liturgical tradition, there's this whole thing called a lectionary. It's a systematic, you know, reading plan of the Bible. And there are these seasons of the Church year that you're really immersed in week in and week out is actually connected to a larger story. And it's the story of God. One thing about Jesus through the church, here's the way I like to kind of talk about it.

20:57 Yeah, one thing I liked about the lectionary is that when I was pastoring, you know, we all have a Canon within the Canon basically, and as preachers, go to books go to passages. Right. And with the lectionary it, you know, if you're going to follow it seriously, it makes you deal with passages in the Bible that you would rarely not deal with, which is a really healthy thing, in my opinion to. So

21:23 that, well, for instance, I preached in our church last Sunday, and I ended up preaching on Zacchaeus, I've never preached. I knew he was short, I knew there were like, children's songs about him. And it was a fact. You know, it kind of forced me to kind of deal with some issues. But it was amazing. Like, there were some things I saw, in preparing for that sermon that, you know, the, the chapter before, and Luke is about the rich young ruler, which we always talk about, as you know, will make rich people feel like, you know, they're sinners, and they can, you know, follow Jesus. Well, here's Zacchaeus is a rich, he's a tax collector. He's rich, and he's short. You know, Jesus says, salvation has come to your house, and he gives a portion of his of his wealth to the poor. And so there were some insights there that I was, I discovered, because the lectionary forced me to really wrestle with the passage I'd never seen before.

22:27 And I just realized, actually, the pastor of the church we're attending right now, obviously, is using the lectionary because last week, the sermon was on a kiss and the week before, ruler, so Wow, wow, it didn't Telegraph that but that's what he's doing. That's great.

22:42 When in CS Lewis, in The Screwtape Letters, he actually, I think it's letter 16, because we just read it in classes about the church. And he basically Screwtape is critiquing, or he's affirming pastors who reject the lectionary. And then it ends up just being those, you know, 20 Psalms that they like, and, you know, a handful of passages from the Gospels. And his critique is that the people in the church never learned anything that the pastor doesn't already know. Yeah, cuz because of the rejection of the lectionary, which Yeah, I find that really interesting. And, and it is often without the lectionary. It is up to kind of pastor or pastoral team who's coming up with sermon series. It's nice to be to have a lectionary that pushes you into books you normally don't get into.

23:37 Well, again, it's kind of like, we we never graduate from Jesus. And I like the thing I like about the church years. And each Sunday and Ultra, you're getting old testament, right? Pistol readings, Psalms in the Gospels. You're getting the Gospels every Sunday, and it's kind of like the whole service preaches. It's not just this, the sermon or the preacher in the way I like to say is, the sermon may have been awful that Sunday, the music may have stunk, but you still know you're gonna get Jesus at the time. Right? Right, right. And you get the gospel in the multiple readings of Scriptures, the prayers that are prayed the whole service preaches and narrates the story of God. And that's where that's one of the reasons I started the book. With that chapter on story formed worship is we live in a story deprived world. And I think one of the draws to liturgy is it helps regenerate us, it helps remind us that we belong to a larger story of creation, fall, redemption, and renewal. And that's the story that we belong to and we find hope and and I think people are longing for that.

24:51 One thing that's really helped me in taking communion actually is just the realization that when I'm doing this, I'm doing this You know, with brothers and sisters around the world, and also brothers and sisters through the last 2000 years, and we were all meeting here, temporally and geographically, basically at the table. And that just really, that moves me. And it helps me feel connected myself.

25:16 Well, the Orthodox tradition uses, you know, there's this idea of the it's a proleptic, the Lord's Supper is it's you. And in that moment, you are, in a real sense, we're joining with those that have gone before, right, we're joining with those that were together with around that table. But we're also joining in in the same act, that millions of believers around the world each Sunday are celebrating, but we're also looking forward to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And so it's this Past, Present Future thing that's happening in a real, dynamic, spiritual way. And again, that's another embodiment of, we're not just proclaiming the gospel, we're experiencing, that that kingdom here now, as we come together and celebrate the Lord's supper together, there's this rich embodiment of that story, that we're, we've become actors of the story. You know, it's kind of like, it's this each week. It's a divine drama, where we're joining in and that's the neat thing with again, Palm Sunday, why don't we come in with poems because we're, we're reenacting this great story. And, and again, that's, you know, I'll share it this way, a good friend of mine, I won't name his name. But, you know, he was a professor playing at a church, he invited me, you know, I do church planning. So he said, Hey, I'd love for you to come be a part of our preview service. It was a large launch model. You know, he was proud. He said, Hey, we have communion every Sunday. And we'd love for you to just critique our service. Let us know what you think, you know, we say the Apostles Creed, you know, who's proud of these elements? Right. And, you know, there's a great gospel sermon, there were some scriptures that were read, and then then the service ended like this, said, Hey, this last song, we've got a table in the back with communion elements just come up and get it. And yeah, like, what? Like, there was no, they didn't read a passage. They didn't say what communion was, there was no on the night that Christ was handed over to suffering and death. So afterwards, he was like, hey, I want you to talk with our team. Tell us what you thought. I said, Man, you're one of these gospel churches. You know, you're like a Bible pre as a professor of preaching. And I said, you missed the greatest opportunity to preach the gospel. I said that the Lord's table you always Institute it. With reading the passage on the night that Christ was handed over suffering and death, he took the body, we broke it, he took the wine, bless the ended up, you know, you walk people through, why, what it is why you're doing it, and it's a reenactment. And it's preaching the gospel every Sunday. And he was like, wow, I totally get it. And so again, all these elements are all preaching, and all teaching people and reminding them of what story they belong to.

28:18 And then as really important and helpful, because I'm going to be leading communion this Sunday at church. So

28:25 read the passage. Yeah. So now,

28:27 I know what, that's what I'm going to do. I'm

28:31 just going to toss a little cups of grape juice at people.

28:33 Yeah, no, I guess grab my whole plan now. Yeah, gotta add in First Corinthians. But with this kind of with your book, right, when we've been talking a lot about liturgy, which I love, you connect it to mission, which a lot of times, people I think do separate, like worship, and mission. And so how, yeah, how are you connecting these two? Yeah. And your focus with that?

29:01 Yeah, I mean, so, again, for me, I came at the recovery of liturgy and tradition as someone coming from a missional kind of evangelical space. But there was this hunger, and there was something that was, you know, missing, you know, we were talking about that a little bit earlier. And what I began to discover was, there's actually something very missional, about coming to the table each week and about saying these prayers were being formed. There's a form formation that's happening, that ultimately, as if we see it, it's forming us for mission, the movements. One is the actual movements of the liturgy. And this is where I think the structure of our worship, does our worship actually move us toward mission and if not, need to ask ourselves, why not? And so again, we gather together from the world to worship, we hear God's word, then we feed at the table, and then the fourth movement of of the historic liturgies the sending out the blessing and the ancient you know worship service you know in the Catholic still call it mass because mass comes from the Latin word Nisa, which means go you are sent. And in a liturgical service, it will always end with the priestly blessing are the ministers saying, hey, go into the world, you know, you know, in the fullness of the Spirit Go in peace, to love and serve the Lord. And it's kind of that that the blessing is actually ascending. And when you look at that historic order, it actually should move this toward mission. And again, different theological or, you know, different traditions, you know, Alexander Schneemann, refers to calls it that we encounter the kingdom to go back out into the world in mission. It's THE LITURGY OF MISSION he actually refers to it is that yeah, I think helping people understand that liturgy is not just this dead, dry ritual, but actually, it's a journey to where we're encountering the kingdom to go back out into the world, and mission is a profound way to see it. And there, even as you look at the life of the early church, you know, Corinthians passage, you know, when Paul's talking about the social dimensions of the Lord's Supper, to wait on those to wait on others, you know, the early church, there was the distribution of the elements, there's a missiological thing that's happening as we come to the Lord's table, our differences, no longer matter, right? The Lord's Table at all are welcome. And regardless of the color of your skin, or socio economic background, so there's there, there's a Nishan component, and I, you know, even segue, I call it the interlude of the book, where I look at the Lord's Prayer, the Kingdom prayer, and it's a prayer of worship, but it's also a prayer of Nishan. And we're reminded of the corporate dimension, Our Father, who art in heaven, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Give us this day, our daily bread, like not just us, but all of us, you know, there's, there's these, we're praying for the kingdom to come. And there there missiological dimensions to the worship and to the prayers that we pray.

32:25 Yeah, I really appreciated that chapter. And I was add, I'd never really heard it described that way of Lord's prayer as a mission, right? We often use it as an example of prayer. And, and it becomes kind of us focused, like, how should I pray, what are some things and wrapped in the prayer is, is this encouragement of again, going out, and being transformed and living living in the world and living in community and living in unity, which is, which is so important, and we had Danny Carroll from Wheaton on the show a few weeks ago, and he made a statement wasn't even really what he was talking about. But he made a statement about liturgy that really connects here he said, liturgy should be formative, not performative. Yes, and I think yet with maybe many in the Free Church model, and I'm a pastor and a, you know, on staff at a church and very much a free model, that it can be so performative, and what that I think, lends people to do is to come back to see the performance, formative to go out and live this in the world. And, and, and yeah, and I appreciate the connection of liturgy. And mission in the sense of our worship is preparing us to send us not preparing us to come back next Sunday. And yes, or not only right, doing that.

33:54 I remember even the little Baptist church I grew up in had a had a sign on the back, like, I guess it's the front door. And it said something like insert worship depart to serve, but nobody ever actually explained to us what that meant. Except maybe bring a friend here next Sunday or something. But now I can appreciate that some more.

34:14 Yeah, yeah. Our what's interesting is our church at the sending at the very end, we have everyone face the doors. Oh, wow. Wow. Which is kind of weird when we first moved here as I went where they do it, but it's now face the doors and face the world. And, you know, to go out and peace to love and serve. The Lord said it's, again, it's a visual reminder and yes, liturgy is not a performance, but it's participatory. It's not something that the Minister is doing, you know, up on stage, it's not an entertainment. Everyone has that Colin response. Everyone plays a part everyone again, we all join in this divine draw Mom, and that dramas ultimately moving us to go back out into the world and mission.

35:07 And so good. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the show taking the time from Kentucky to join the West Coast. And I really, really excited about your book really enjoyed it. And, and I know that we're, especially with Rex and I's heart for liturgy and then even seeing that with our students. And many of our younger students, and even our unchurched students are more drawn to the tactical structural worship. And I think it really has so much to teach the church, particularly the evangelical church that we're a part of. And so just thank you for this book. And we'll be definitely spreading the word about it out here in California.

35:49 Awesome. Thanks so much for having me today. I've enjoyed it and blessings on the work that you all are doing.

35:56 Congratulations on making it to the end of the podcast. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Jessup think, where we'll be posting updates and some behind the scenes content. We would love to hear your thoughts on the episode and engage with any questions you might have to leave us a comment or email us at [email protected]. Our aim is to provide a framework for further reflection and deeper exploration of these important topics. If you want to support the show, leave us a review on iTunes. We can reach more people. Until then, I'm Matthew Todd outro. Reader extraordinaire, and this has been Jessup Think.

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