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fresh for everyone. Jonathan

1:00

Reynolds is a Labour MP and

1:02

is the Shadow Secretary of State for Business. Today,

1:06

he reveals some of the home truths

1:08

about being a politician. I

1:10

think esteem at which politicians are held

1:13

in has declined. I mean, let's

1:15

be realistic, if you're a politician, you've got to accept people

1:17

probably don't like you. Earlier this year,

1:19

we were joined by former Tory Business

1:21

Secretary of State, Grant Chaps. So,

1:24

I was keen to invite Jonathan on as well.

1:27

I first got to know Jonny a bit when we attended

1:29

various events together between 2016

1:30

and 2019, in

1:32

my capacity as a number 10 advisor, and

1:35

in his capacity as the Shadow Minister

1:38

for the City of London. He was well regarded

1:40

in the city, with CityAM editor

1:42

Christian May describing him as popular

1:45

in the square mile and at home in the brief. And

1:47

we shared a bit of commonality about

1:49

our backstory too. I was born in 1980 in

1:52

the coal mining side of Sunderland, Boston

1:54

County, Durham. Just in a Labour story, all

1:56

the family were miners and Grant was the winding

1:58

engine man who controlled the lift.

1:59

chaffed, you know, all of that stuff.

2:02

But I do think the job of government

2:04

of the state is to help people manage change.

2:07

I'm now joined by Johnny Reynolds

2:09

for a discussion on politics, change

2:12

and the north of England.

2:17

Johnny, welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. Thank

2:20

you, really pleased to be here. Now we

2:22

have a interesting guest

2:24

alumni of Jimmy's Jobs in Common. You went

2:26

round to see Miles Jacobson

2:29

at Football Manager the week after we interviewed him.

2:32

What were your impressions of that company?

2:34

Well, it was tremendous.

2:36

Like many people, I'm

2:39

sure listening to this, there's

2:42

a personal connection to that. I mean, I remember,

2:44

I feel old now,

2:46

the first edition of what I think

2:48

was Championship Manager 95

2:51

and I thought this is the

2:53

most revolutionary thing. I'd ever seen it in football, obviously,

2:55

but I thought this is like a game where, you

2:57

know, the human isn't

2:59

really required, right? It's like a world

3:02

that they have created. So there's a sort

3:04

of personal interest in that.

3:06

But to see also

3:08

what Miles was talking about in terms of what that company

3:11

has done, how they have, you

3:13

know, created a project with this incredible following,

3:16

but also, I mean, specifically to what

3:18

we're talking about today, the skill side most

3:20

passion for that. I mean, I

3:22

would have enjoyed the visit, I think, in any circumstances. I think

3:25

maybe they were taken away by some of the particularly detailed

3:27

questions that I could hear in the world that

3:29

they created. Have we modeled inflation better

3:32

in football managers? Probably not the kind of question that

3:34

they're used to in

3:36

the main, but brilliant. And I honestly,

3:39

a serious part of that is, I think you

3:42

would very much agree with this, that

3:44

to take something like that, that is surely a great

3:46

way we could educate people, inspire

3:48

people about the kind of careers that are

3:50

available and how the entry points

3:53

into those careers can actually be

3:56

quite open. There are people passionate about passing on

3:58

that expertise and knowledge. And of course,

4:00

ultimately, it's just an absolutely world class

4:02

product that is known around the

4:05

world. And I mean, some of the stories I will

4:08

give away the identities, but I'd

4:10

never realized some professional footballers

4:12

who come to the UK use football

4:14

manager to learn English to learn the kind of

4:16

idioms around football. That's what

4:18

I think about it. You put it in

4:21

your own language, change it, recognize

4:24

what's happening, things like that. I mean, that's an aside,

4:26

but I had a brilliant visit. I mean,

4:28

my top three is the ones I've done in this job.

4:31

I always remind you of a story of Robbie Keane

4:33

telling Rafa Benitez that he was glad he got the

4:36

monkey off his back with his goal scoring

4:38

and Rafa Benitez has been incredibly confused

4:40

by the sort of... But

4:43

yeah, you can see why the sort of the colloquial

4:45

language around it be interesting. What are the other

4:47

sort of memorable visits you've had to businesses? I mean,

4:49

I always say

4:51

in a job like this, you can visit

4:54

pretty much any business in the world.

4:57

Now, nobody in politics

5:00

wants to be the opposition, but if you can't make

5:02

the most of an opportunity like that, if you cannot

5:06

use that to learn things, but also to develop

5:08

good policy, you be

5:11

missing a huge opportunity. So the ones that are

5:13

particularly special, I mean, I've lived

5:15

my own life, very proud to represent

5:17

part of the East side of Manchester and Tame's side,

5:20

but I grew up in Sunderland. So the Nissan

5:22

car factory and one of my early

5:25

visits, I mean, I've friends from school who still

5:27

work there. Again, senior

5:29

management there are people who started in the main

5:31

apprentices. I mean, what an amazing story.

5:34

It's amazing story about British exports and expertise

5:36

and engineering know how as well.

5:38

So that is always a special

5:42

one. I quite recently went to Scotland's

5:44

biggest PCORA factory. Again,

5:46

I just I love to learn about how things are made

5:49

about the story of how businesses have grown. Why

5:51

do people choose to do that? How do they come together?

5:54

And I think it's about being an MP generally,

5:57

really, if you're genuinely interested in people

5:59

and you want to. learn and you're quite passionate about it. I find that

6:01

people are incredibly welcoming. Whatever their own

6:04

politics or how they see the situation

6:06

in the UK right now, they really do

6:08

respond well to if

6:10

you're coming at it with some passion, then I

6:12

find that bit of a job. Mason- What

6:15

else strikes you about the northeast

6:17

and the kind of jobs that are being created

6:19

up there? Because it does perhaps

6:22

sort of, it is a bit underestimated perhaps

6:24

in the UK, perhaps it likes that a little

6:26

bit sometimes, but what have your reflections

6:29

been on there? You're obviously born in Sunderland

6:31

and so on. Paul Yeah, I mean, I think the love is a very

6:33

distinct part of the country. It's a

6:35

very specific

6:36

house prices are slightly even

6:38

lower than the northwest in the northeast and

6:40

therefore you've got a kind of different, how

6:45

the economy works is very different. We've seen

6:48

age become quite a significant factor

6:51

in voting intention. People have a

6:53

certain duty to pay off their mortgage because

6:55

house prices are less and the

6:57

big thing I take from my

7:00

experiences is, so

7:02

I was born in 1980 in the kind of the

7:04

coal mining side of Sunderland, Buster County, Durham,

7:07

traditional store, traditional labour store, all the family

7:09

were miners and Granddad was the winding

7:11

engine man who controlled the lift shaft, all of

7:14

that stuff. One

7:16

really big thing for me is because I grew up with that time, it was

7:19

quite a time significant change. I mean, shipbuilding and mining

7:21

were the core industries, the

7:25

industrial action, the politics of the miners' strike

7:28

and so forth and very significant

7:30

northeast shipbuilders, so you can plug 13,000 people

7:32

even by the end of its time in the late

7:34

1980s. I am one

7:37

of those people who I'm not nostalgic for the past.

7:39

I think far too much nostalgia in

7:42

British politics is very powerful, emotional too.

7:44

But I do think the job of

7:47

government of the state is to help people manage

7:49

change, it's not to pretend that change isn't going to happen

7:51

and you can somehow insulate yourself from it. No

7:54

one should believe that's possible or even desirable actually,

7:56

but I do think how we are and

7:58

we'll see this challenge now particularly. around net zero,

8:01

going to make sure we get the maximum benefits of that. We're just

8:03

going to let people sink or swim around

8:06

that. And specific

8:08

role for the state, I look now, automotive

8:10

obviously has to transition to in the main

8:12

electric vehicle production. It's going to

8:15

require a partnership. Some welcome news

8:17

recently, but it's been quite a worrying picture. We've also got

8:19

things, always like Brexit effects, the

8:21

automotive sector, very much. If

8:24

you think about steel industry, again,

8:26

it's maybe not thought it was an industry of the future and some supporters,

8:29

but it's not a sunset industry. I mean, steel is integral

8:31

to a modern economy. How are we going to move

8:34

from a position where often

8:37

the courage of the UK steel industry isn't

8:39

positive, it's just sort of talk of how we're

8:41

going to get through the next year. But actually, with

8:44

a partnership with the government and the

8:46

kind of public private arrangements that other countries

8:49

have done, it'll be a massive future for

8:51

green steel. So I really,

8:53

a lot of how I am approaching

8:55

this job, as well as the specific part of

8:58

individual policies.

8:59

That's the kind of big thing that drives me. I

9:01

do think that's important. What

9:03

does the Northeast specialise in now when it

9:06

comes to the economy? Because a lot of people do still

9:08

associate it with coal mining,

9:10

shipbuilding, et cetera. What are

9:12

the sectors that you see up there now?

9:15

I think people maybe think a bit less about things

9:17

like shipbuilding now, but I

9:19

think the sand car factories has become the iconic,

9:22

certainly for the weir side side of the region,

9:24

the iconic image

9:27

of it. I mean, a lot of people don't know that

9:30

despite the wider sort of economic position of

9:32

the Northeast, it is the only region of England

9:35

outside the Southeast that there's a net export,

9:38

balance trade, which is astonishing. But mainly

9:40

that is the automotive sector.

9:43

There are things now around whether

9:46

it is game production or the

9:48

creative industries in particular, which are absolutely

9:51

sold or on the back of good connections to higher

9:53

education in the Northeast, which are really important. Professional

9:56

services like every part of the country, particularly

9:58

around Newcastle, is a really big part of the country. of that.

10:01

One of my feelings is, I don't know what some people may agree

10:03

with this, they may not, but

10:05

I think sometimes as a country we're not

10:07

as aware of as we need to be of what we actually

10:09

do do well. I'll

10:11

go around my own group and see some of the things

10:14

we've got going on in the industrial estates are

10:17

absolutely amazing. But they're

10:19

out of sight. You don't really go to an industrial

10:21

estate unless you've got a reason to visit somewhere else

10:24

in business to conduct. And so of course

10:26

it's not the days when you had, you know, an area like

10:28

Staley Bridge and Hyde that I live and represent in, you

10:30

literally had big mills dominate the landscape,

10:33

clocking off time, everyone leaving and coming at the same time.

10:37

That's a very visible, you know, sign

10:39

of how your economy works. I actually think we

10:42

need to tell them maybe a better story about what we're

10:44

good at. I think particularly if we look at the

10:46

politics and future of things like trade deals,

10:48

you've got a baseline on how can you maximise your

10:51

strengths, your competitive advantages. So there's

10:53

often coming to press here in terms of sort of

10:55

a trail deal we looked at in terms of are

10:58

we getting more than the country we're doing that deal with. Well,

11:00

actually it's more about your internal economic

11:02

picture, isn't it? So to what sectors are we willing

11:05

to take a bit more competition in to gain more trade

11:07

access for because we think we're pretty good at it and

11:09

know we could gain something from there. And maybe

11:12

that needs to catch up a little bit. What

11:14

companies have kind of impressed

11:16

you that

11:17

you've been on sort of your travels

11:19

and you meet with lots of people who have kind

11:21

of impressed you? Because I'm always struck by quite

11:24

often businesses don't necessarily engage with government. And

11:26

if they're B2B businesses, well, they don't necessarily

11:28

get profile in the media either, right? So

11:30

actually there's lots of these stories that just

11:33

aren't really told, aren't really covered. So it'd be quite interesting

11:35

which ones you sort of call them. I think that's true. I mean,

11:38

I'm often

11:39

surprised by how some businesses

11:41

are brilliant at their engagement in terms of they're not, look,

11:44

not in terms of asking for things, they just tell you what they're doing,

11:46

what that means, what the competitive position

11:48

around the world is, that is genuinely

11:51

useful. There are also, I would

11:53

say businesses that have a situation

11:57

where they're incredibly... Once

12:00

exposed, their business relates quite

12:02

a lot to the public policy environment and the wider

12:04

state of the economy.

12:07

So you'd think they would

12:09

be more engaged in terms of what they are, just

12:12

putting through to parliamentarians, not even from benches,

12:15

parliament as a whole to make sure that

12:17

policy is good, basically. They're effective and

12:19

it does the thing. So I mean, it's always

12:23

difficult to single people out. I mean, I am trying

12:25

to avoid something which I think

12:29

maybe people who I've seen do the job of

12:31

business sector fall into, which is to sort of say, these

12:35

are the people I like. And I think some of the debate

12:38

is completely false. You even get people, you

12:40

know, should the UK focus on services or

12:42

manufacturing? I mean, of course you should have a good policy

12:44

platform. No

12:47

one chooses those things. Or, you know,

12:49

the worst one is when we should

12:51

like small businesses, not big businesses. Well, I mean,

12:53

what does that? You

12:55

want successful businesses to grow to employ

12:57

more people. Some of the best employment in the UK is

13:00

in larger businesses. Again,

13:02

we all want competitive markets where new

13:05

entrants, smaller businesses can compete

13:07

for it. They've got to do that on quality

13:09

and how that works. And obviously, you've got to make sure

13:11

there's a fair, you know, things

13:14

like late payment for small businesses. That's a genuine

13:16

problem in the UK and does need specific

13:18

policy focus. But I mean, I can

13:21

honestly say I'm impressed and enthusiastic about

13:24

almost anyone I go to. And

13:26

sometimes there are conversations that are tougher, you know, there are,

13:28

you know, absolutely believe, for

13:31

instance, every business in the country should

13:33

be comfortable about letting its workforce

13:35

join a trade union and collectively organize it.

13:37

That's what my workforce choose

13:40

to do. And actually, there's a lot to be gained from the business from doing

13:42

that. I think most people accept that.

13:45

If they don't, I would have that conversation with

13:47

them. But I can honestly say I enjoy almost every visit

13:49

I go on. How do you think the future of work is changing?

13:52

Because there's a lot in that, isn't there? Post the pandemic,

13:54

people wanting flexibility,

13:56

working from home, etc. I mean, the Labour

13:58

Party was literally. founded off jobs

14:02

and that kind of like collective bargaining and so

14:04

forth. How do you think the future

14:06

looks when it comes to that?

14:08

I mean, there's a set of trends,

14:11

I would say have been accelerated by the pandemic,

14:13

but still, I think

14:15

some of the media company can be overdone. So I mean, I

14:17

think back to when I was a trainee solicitor

14:20

and there was part of that job, which

14:22

was a long process, I think. Yeah,

14:25

go through these leases. And

14:27

actually, a world where you could

14:30

have some flexibility and do as part of your week, but

14:32

maybe do from home, would

14:34

have been absolutely brilliant. Obviously,

14:36

a big part of a job like that is learning from people who've got

14:38

more experience than you. So you

14:40

do need to be in the office to get that, you need

14:42

to be part and observe and be able to ask people

14:45

a kind of critical questions that will develop your own career.

14:48

And so actually, I've

14:50

talked to most businesses and I don't see

14:53

them going completely one way or the other on this. The

14:55

state of the labor market and how tight it is means that people

14:57

do have certain expectations and they will ask for certain

15:00

flexibilities. I think that can work for the employer.

15:02

But the idea of work from home is going to be

15:05

no commercial property anymore, the tax base is going to collapse

15:07

or all that, on the other extreme,

15:10

some of the government secretaries of state, I shadowed it,

15:12

one in particular, Jacob Rees-Mogg, I think went around putting

15:15

notes on civil service desks

15:17

telling them they had to get back to work

15:19

and probably didn't do very much for recruitment. Yeah.

15:22

And morale, I'd imagine for the people who were on the receiving

15:24

end of that. I mean, that's too much on the other. I

15:27

think businesses can work this out with their own workforce

15:30

for themselves, but expectations have

15:33

changed around that. Because you're

15:35

obviously living in Greater Manchester

15:37

and the strength of Manchester City Centre in particular

15:40

is a great regeneration story

15:42

led by local labor politicians now

15:44

for many years. I do ask

15:46

people,

15:48

if

15:49

you think about the Circle Square, the Manchester, which is where

15:51

the BBC seems to be, are you

15:53

worried about how the trend has changed? But actually they say

15:55

people will still, even if

15:58

they're going to be in every day, they want a premium work. workplace

16:00

to come into. And

16:01

they want that environment. And on

16:03

Manchester, kind of specifically, because it's

16:05

a great case study of how a city

16:08

has kind of come sort of wall and back, has

16:10

got kind of lots of creative industries

16:12

and so on. Would you put that down to even

16:14

the MPs since 2010? What is that

16:17

sort of... Why is Manchester

16:19

booming so much? Well, I mean,

16:21

first of all, you've got to credit

16:22

some of the people who began that process. That's

16:25

Howard Bernstein in the Chief Executive of Longtime

16:27

and Richard Lees as leader and actually Drane Stringer

16:30

before that. I mean, I was once at the Royal Exchange

16:33

in Manchester, which is the old cotton exchange

16:36

from New Don't Know and still has the kind of prices up

16:38

and wonderful theatre to visit. But

16:40

I was sitting next to Graydon's by coincidence. I said,

16:43

he must have been the leader when this work began.

16:46

And he said, people said, leader

16:48

after five o'clock, no one is going to want to

16:50

come into a Northern British city center.

16:53

And now, not only do they want to, they live there.

16:56

So it's not, first

16:58

of all, it's not short term initiatives. It's a long term

17:00

planning. It is a commitment to placemaking.

17:03

I mean, when I was a trainee in

17:05

the legal sector in Manchester, Spinning

17:08

Fields was just starting to get up

17:10

and going now again, hugely thriving sector.

17:12

They've really gone for the big decisions,

17:15

bold decisions, but also, they

17:17

have based it on not just,

17:20

say, jobs alone. It's about people

17:22

living there as well. And actually,

17:25

the creative sector is clearly very strong. And

17:27

the anchor for that has been the relocation in the BBC.

17:30

And that's actually in Salford Keys, but has a

17:32

huge effect on the city center as well. But

17:35

they have linked those initiatives

17:37

consistent with time. And I do think

17:39

the levelling up agenda is interesting.

17:42

The white paper is interesting that the government did,

17:44

but the kind of commitment and resources along

17:46

long term commitment you need to that

17:49

is what will ultimately do it. And of course,

17:52

once you get that, you get this incredibly benign

17:54

and positive reinforcing

17:56

set of relationships, which is more for people want to

17:58

live there. Yeah. talent base of young,

18:02

well-educated, committed people.

18:04

Of course, you will want to base your business there if you get access

18:06

to that talent pool. I mean, more than anything else, because I'm

18:09

always asking businesses what will make you invest

18:11

more in the UK? What decisions are borderline that,

18:13

you know, what policy environment could I provide that would

18:15

bring you over the line to do it? And at the

18:17

top of everything is going to be, is there a committed

18:19

skill board for it?

18:21

And on the investment side as

18:23

well, like, you know, to flip

18:25

to the end of the country now, London and the stock

18:27

exchange. So there's some big challenges

18:29

around that at the moment. And you

18:31

talk there about like, you know, momentum carrying

18:33

a city one way or the other. Like, London's got some challenges

18:36

at the moment. What are you hearing

18:38

when you're speaking to the international investors side?

18:40

Oh, yes. I mean,

18:42

this is the position, you know,

18:45

around financial services

18:47

and the post Brexit picture for the city has obviously

18:49

been a really strong topic of conversation

18:52

politically. And it's never, I think,

18:54

been the worry that Brexit would have

18:57

created some kind of exodus

18:59

of all the jobs. I mean, this isn't how it's going to be. But

19:02

I think what worries people is, and the language they would use is

19:04

this little puncture. So over time, the competitiveness

19:06

is moving up to that glumrative effect of having

19:08

so many thriving sectors that makes this the

19:11

number one financial centre as we

19:13

would want it to be. It

19:15

is the worry. And specifically, I mean,

19:18

I think the bit we've all

19:20

got to be aware of, particularly the

19:22

concerns around, you

19:24

know, the desirability, otherwise, of listing in

19:26

the UK. We have such

19:29

a thriving FinTech sector

19:31

in particular, and innovation, great

19:33

universities. But if it's getting to a point

19:35

where, you know, a certain point of success,

19:37

people just don't want to then take the next

19:39

step in the UK, that is a problem. And

19:42

I think the reason, I mean,

19:45

we've got things like the Edinburgh reforms the government have done, which

19:47

are, you know, a set of kind of regulatory changes

19:50

to increase the desirability. They're

19:52

of interest. But the thing that worries me the most is

19:55

when people say to me that culturally,

19:58

they feel the US vales...

19:59

particularly

20:02

technology companies better and

20:04

they're more patient for longer term

20:07

returns, longer term growth

20:09

essentially, shorter term returns.

20:11

Now when people are assigned to your cultural

20:13

problem and there's no obvious regulatory leave

20:15

at it to pull to do that, that's got

20:18

to be a concern. I think there's a lot of activity

20:20

around this. It's broad. People

20:22

may know the things like

20:24

the financial services and markets bill this government

20:26

did was broadly supported by the labor opposition

20:29

here. I mean, we backed the secondary objective in terms

20:31

of competitiveness for the regulator. So

20:34

there is a pretty healthy cross party conversation

20:36

going on about this. But

20:40

I think we've all got to be alert to

20:42

these concerns. This is some brilliant things here. The

20:46

big picture has got to be a recognition that

20:48

there are some brilliant sectors, brilliant firms,

20:50

things in this country that every other country is

20:52

envious of and would like. But

20:55

you shouldn't as a cabinet

20:57

minister, as a business secretary in particular, just go look, I

20:59

can go along to a world class place. There's nothing

21:01

to see here. You've got to go along and say because

21:04

of this, I know how good we can be. I am inspired

21:06

to make sure the whole of the

21:08

economy is aspiring to live

21:11

up to this ideal. And there are some policy challenges,

21:13

particularly around what you've just said here. And how do we

21:15

encourage

21:16

people to be more ambitious with their businesses

21:18

and to grow and to scale more? Because

21:21

that's one of the big challenges, right? Is we need more scale.

21:23

Not quite a lot of startups actually, but how

21:25

do you get people scale? Yeah, I mean, we did a piece

21:27

of work, which

21:29

I think is very important, which is our startup scale of the

21:31

people that Jim O'Neill did for

21:33

us. And I mean, because of the

21:35

different shadow jobs I've done, it's a question I've thought about

21:37

quite a lot. Personally, it

21:40

says there are businesses who just don't want to go

21:42

beyond a certain point. They are happy with the income

21:45

return that they are getting. They're worried about

21:47

loss of control around that.

21:50

And I understand that there is still not as much as there

21:52

was. For a while, there was a real

21:55

hangover from the financial crisis and what would have

21:57

to happen as banks tightened up their balance sheets.

22:00

actually outright illegal behavior, which became

22:02

some of the scandals at the time

22:04

and the conversation that had to

22:06

come from that. So there is that part

22:08

of the question. I do think there's a set

22:10

of things in terms of, again, you're always

22:12

looking for, we all cease to

22:14

analyze the problem, but what's going to make a real difference?

22:16

So that report in particular talks about how we could

22:18

evolve British business banking to build

22:21

on some of the good work it's done, give it some

22:24

real strength, institutional independence

22:26

around how it deploys capital and the programs

22:28

that it runs, really tailoring those specific

22:30

regions and parts of the country as they started to do,

22:32

to be fair. And that is an interesting bit how

22:36

some of the investment

22:39

release, like enterprise investment allows the

22:41

scheme, how can that work better? How can we perhaps

22:44

give some more confidence and longevity to some of those programs?

22:47

So we are looking around this,

22:49

but culturally we have to value people who do. I

22:52

do think that has changed in the UK in

22:54

the last few years. I suppose

22:57

in many ways, when I talk

22:59

to some tech companies or people who call themselves,

23:02

or rightly call themselves tech entrepreneurs, really they're

23:04

creating content and tech is the

23:07

means by which they are marketing that. And so

23:09

I think one interesting thing that that has done,

23:11

I remember talking to some brilliant group

23:13

of, it was a specific group of female tech

23:15

entrepreneurs in Bonded Warehouse in Manchester,

23:17

which is one of our facilities, breakfast

23:20

and network and be part of and grow your business. And

23:22

I was thinking that there are people here telling me, because

23:25

of technology, they can be self-employed,

23:28

they can be innovators, they can create products

23:30

and be entrepreneurial, because

23:32

that path existed. It didn't mean 2013, it's

23:35

because there simply wouldn't have been a way to break

23:37

up on your own and do that. So we've got to

23:39

harness that in the end, and that potential.

23:42

Tell people it's possible. The best way to do that,

23:44

I think,

23:45

is obviously peer to peer support.

23:47

I mean, like, you know, cabinet

23:48

minister telling you, you should do this. That's never,

23:50

that's never important. Your heart and mind isn't

23:53

quite the same way. But if you meet someone who has a similar background

23:55

to you, who's interested in the same thing as you, and they're telling

23:57

you their story, which is really what a lot of those kind of... mentorships

24:01

and peer programs do. I think

24:03

that, yeah. Excuse me. And what

24:05

are the sort of the three things that

24:07

get brought most by business? I mean, I know

24:10

you've talked a bit about kind of political instability

24:12

being the number one, which I think everyone can kind of like,

24:15

can see that over the last year. But what are the

24:17

other things that sort of businesses say actually

24:19

be really helpful to get government's support

24:22

on this? Stability is what they raise,

24:24

first of all, and that's obviously a reflection

24:26

of reality here with three prime ministers. I

24:28

mean, it's a reasonable complaint about

24:30

the political system if that is where it is. But they also

24:32

mean in terms of the investment

24:36

periods for some of those net zero questions,

24:40

the incentives and the relative trade-offs of making

24:42

those investments in the UK, they

24:44

do need reassurance that you will

24:46

not see policy change in response

24:48

to short-term political pressure. So I always remember being the

24:50

shadow energy minister in 2015, the

24:54

eco program has become an installation

24:56

program and it lasted less than a calendar year. It

24:58

is reasonable for businesses to comply with

25:01

the political system. It's not giving them the timeframes

25:03

that they need. That is always the first one. Skills

25:06

will be the next one. And obviously

25:09

we have plans to change the apprenticeship levy, give businesses

25:11

more control, more flexibility really about how

25:13

they spend that. But also, that's

25:15

often a question of, okay, they want

25:17

that result. They really like that policy. Will

25:19

the quality be there? Will it be available and which

25:21

to use that? It's

25:23

been a very hard time for FE. And if I was saying

25:26

the third one, it would either be planning or

25:28

it would be things like national breed

25:31

and their inability to get connections to

25:33

become a huge issue in terms of generally

25:35

those investments, large and small from pubs

25:38

to gigafactories that's coming through there. So there's

25:40

a little bit of commentary now in the

25:43

media, which is, so there's a change of government. It's

25:45

not going to be a lot of money to spend because things are tight.

25:48

What can change? Well, actually, I would say on things like negotiating

25:50

a better Brexit agreement, the planning

25:53

system, allowing people to make those investments, changing

25:55

business rates is a big one of our policies. How

25:57

the apprenticeship levy functions, you know.

26:00

There are things you can do. Let's not get into a... We

26:03

do have a commitment to greater public investment around leveraging

26:05

in private investment around net zero.

26:07

But let's be clear, there are some big

26:10

things that can be done that I think would improve the UK's

26:12

relative position quite a lot. And when it comes

26:14

to skills, let's just dive into

26:16

that for a bit. What are the skills that people

26:19

are short of? What do you think are sort

26:21

of the challenges for the next 20, 30 years? I

26:24

mean, in terms of how daunting some of the challenges are,

26:26

this is one of the biggest, because I think the

26:28

UK has simultaneously got

26:30

skill shortages, got labor shortages,

26:33

which are distinct but related issue. And

26:35

it's got immigration at record levels.

26:38

Now, in political terms, that is a challenge for businesses.

26:40

That is a challenge in terms of getting that. But

26:42

I mean,

26:45

in any sector I talk to, from hospitality

26:48

to manufacturing and engineering,

26:50

they're talking about skills shortages. I think,

26:53

first of all, aside from questions

26:55

about numbers in terms of immigration, the system

26:57

has to work better in terms of how fast and responsive it

27:00

is. We have something called the shortage occupation

27:02

list. There are roles

27:04

on there that have been on for over a decade. In

27:06

the sense that it's not dynamic and there's not a need.

27:08

And of course, because some of the things

27:11

haven't changed, with genuine shortages, I

27:13

mean, one of the big losses from the end of

27:15

freedom of movement has been that more kind of technical

27:18

shop floor role, at least in Europe.

27:20

A lot of people coming to the UK, having about one in 10

27:23

at one time in the manufacturing workforce would have

27:25

come from that. Obviously, some of that has been closed

27:27

off. We've got very high immigration from, say, Nigeria

27:30

or India. Often that's maybe

27:33

more on the social care side. And so,

27:36

this is the challenge, immigration hybrid. It's not

27:38

replacing. It's a different call for. Very

27:40

welcome, very good, but still, it's

27:42

a different question therefore. And I do think this

27:45

way the system can work better. I do think

27:47

fundamentally for my constituents, they

27:50

do know and they do celebrate that

27:52

immigration laws play a role in filling some of those

27:54

shortages. All they want to know is it's not going to be

27:56

the only way to do that. And the

27:58

reason we've got that around flexibility

28:00

in the apprenticeship levy, which becomes skills levy, is that,

28:04

look, if you're spending 100% of your levy on apprenticeship,

28:08

brilliant, but you won't be affected by giving you

28:10

the right to spend up to half of it on other forms of training,

28:13

which would be approved forms of training, but that

28:15

could be the more, well, it could be anything, but

28:17

it could be the shorter forms of

28:20

access to particular skills

28:23

and training, which actually, it also means

28:25

how quickly businesses themselves can get people up to

28:27

speed. More

28:30

businesses, I think how, if

28:33

you look at some of the major tech companies, they have in-house

28:35

skills and training programs. They

28:39

pitched ideas to me and to Bridget

28:41

Phillips in our education, Shadow, around

28:45

how could that be made perhaps more available? How could some of

28:47

that be joined up? Or how could some of the bases of that be

28:49

done? Are you going to get that right? Because

28:51

they've got business needs and some of them have put

28:53

huge resources into developing that. But

28:55

I do think you've got to ask, if you need

28:57

to know something, so it's a job

28:59

round the house, what would you do?

29:01

Probably Google it, wouldn't it?

29:02

That's a starting point. I mean, just

29:06

thinking that the other thing, I think I

29:08

looked at a video, I had to change a particular type

29:10

of toilet seat on YouTube. It's the go-to

29:13

way to go and the fact that there are ways to deliver

29:16

training to people in a

29:18

much more, I suppose,

29:20

available way, that's got to be something that

29:22

we think is a good thing. The

29:25

whole range of skills that people need, there's different

29:28

ways to get that. I mean, with skills now sitting,

29:30

like the Labour government skills, it sits in the education department

29:33

role than me. Don't quite get to lead

29:35

on that. The business voice and relationship

29:38

into that has got to be key. The other thing I'd

29:40

say is, I think having those

29:42

national changes to the apprenticeship, they're completely consistent

29:45

with devolving some of the control over that

29:47

to parts of the country. So imagine

29:50

we've already got the evolution of skills in FE.

29:52

What Andy Burnham-Mers-Mare is looking at is how

29:55

could you specialise some of our FE colleges.

29:58

Key thing there is a transport. system that lets

30:00

young people go. It's actually quite

30:02

hard. So, love and control

30:05

of, say, the bus routes was an

30:07

essential part of that. A pass

30:09

for young people to access, in

30:12

a reasonable way, public transport

30:14

to do, to be sorted out first. But

30:17

actually, what I say you would want in a

30:19

city like Greater Manchester is not 10 places

30:21

trying to do exactly the same. There's going to be some

30:23

commonality, but the

30:25

way we could link in the business community to specialise

30:28

some of those places to do that, which is what Andy's talking about,

30:30

I think that would really improve the product

30:33

that could be available. Yeah, and the end

30:35

back thing that he's looking at, I think, is

30:37

quite interesting in terms of like, well, Manchester is

30:39

specific. We need these specific skills

30:42

and people taking a bit more ownership of it. I

30:44

want to talk about your career and so on. So, you

30:46

mentioned a couple of times you were in trainee

30:48

solicitor, trainee in the legal sector.

30:51

Why did you choose that? Well,

30:53

I think

30:55

I always wanted a sort

30:57

of clear profession, not just a job

30:59

profession. And my route into

31:02

law, a little bit complicated.

31:04

I mean, so I left the Northeast, I went to Manchester

31:06

University, lived in Manchester, great

31:09

time, first class degree, elect to the student union,

31:11

all of those classes, thank you, are university things.

31:15

Slight change of plan. My eldest

31:18

son was born just after I graduated,

31:20

so it won't be quite the case of being able to go straight

31:23

to law school, I have to wait a few hours and make sure the

31:25

family situation was able to do that.

31:28

So when I went, I'd really

31:31

had to wait and think about it. And

31:36

I loved every minute of it because the pressure was

31:38

on. When you're going to go back into

31:40

education and you've got children already, yeah,

31:43

it's much more serious. I mean, how

31:45

you maybe approached your undergraduate years,

31:47

it's not the same. I got my

31:50

training contract at Vadilshaw, got on to

31:53

one of the famous firms

31:55

in Manchester in the legal sector. So it was,

31:57

you know, and the chance to, it was

31:59

a job where.

33:59

I mean, the youngest MP the time

34:01

was Pam Nash, I think it was maybe 21 or 22. They

34:06

were relatively younger, but we've had this kind

34:08

of developed family situation and things at the

34:10

time. But I would have been really happy

34:13

to stay with all of it. What changes have you noticed

34:15

in politics and in the job of an

34:17

MP over the last 14 years or so?

34:20

Yes, some real significant ones. I mean,

34:23

the hardest bit has been the general kind of trust

34:25

and I think steam at which politicians are held

34:27

in has declined. I

34:30

mean, it's been realistic. It's never, you know,

34:33

politics is also going to be so I was kind of say people

34:35

know few politicians you've got to accept people probably

34:38

don't like you as a default position

34:40

until you meet them and hopefully you'll give a more positive

34:42

impression of what the whole thing is like. But,

34:45

you know, that has been a factor and obviously, I mean, we've

34:47

seen Boris Johnson's Prime Minister, civic

34:49

things like standards and fixing

34:52

public life. So that bit has been hard. The

34:56

billion packet has been technology on

34:58

the job. I mean, I remember once I was talking,

35:01

I think it was Ken Clark and I said, what was it

35:03

like when you started? I was in the 1970s when Ken was elected.

35:05

He said, I should get like seven

35:07

or eight letters a week. No one expected you

35:09

to even reply to them. You know, he said

35:11

someone said,

35:12

even

35:13

this one party tried to stuff them up and he can stitch into

35:15

the office. Try and speak to it. So

35:18

it's only, you know, electorate. So these

35:20

days that the stuff coming in in

35:23

a good way is, I mean, in a week,

35:25

I think we'd be looking at a couple of thousand communications,

35:29

emails, tweets, letters. Again,

35:31

I mean, I remember, I think I read something

35:33

from Roy Hattersley in 2010 when I

35:35

was saying, you know, he remembers when

35:38

he was first elected, if you wanted to kind of contact the constituency,

35:40

you practically had to walk out of parliament and go to a phone

35:42

box on parliament. Now

35:45

for a private conversation, because he used to share offices. Now

35:48

I can pull out my phone, Facebook Live, not

35:51

just my constituents, but anyone who calls me and tells me this

35:53

is what I'm doing as well. So that bit is great,

35:56

but it has come at a

35:58

cost. either side of that

36:00

is, there's a lot more online abuse. I

36:03

think female politicians get it much

36:05

worse than the male. There's

36:07

a resilience that is required there. In my wife, there's

36:10

a lot of political training. She's

36:13

the director of the liberal women's network, which runs one

36:15

of our kind of premium training programs for

36:18

female candidates. And I'm really struck

36:20

by how much of their work is about, I

36:22

remember political training 20, 30 years ago, it was like

36:25

you write a press release. So

36:27

yeah, they tend to read local paper. Now we're much

36:29

more about how will you manage your time, your

36:32

personal resilience in the face of some of these pressures,

36:34

how will you make sure that you are not

36:37

mistaking activity for outcomes. You

36:39

can clearly die with all sorts, but is it really delivering

36:42

on what you want to deliver in this role? So it's changed

36:44

a lot in that. Parliament's hours have

36:46

changed quite a bit. I mean, there were 10

36:49

o'clock finishes on Monday and Tuesday when I started.

36:53

Now only Monday has that because I know it starts

36:55

at half two, so everyone can get to part of every

36:57

part of the country. So actually, the time-wise

37:00

side of that has changed

37:02

quite a bit. The big thing since the pandemic,

37:04

because of the complete take

37:07

up of platforms like Zoom

37:09

and Teams, has been sometimes

37:12

the constituents want to see you, they're really happy to do it, not

37:14

just on a Friday or Thursday night when you're home.

37:16

They can do it. I talked to a

37:18

local group

37:22

in my constituency yesterday because they wanted us to do it via

37:24

Zoom so I could do it on a Wednesday. That's a real

37:26

bonus. It's never

37:28

going to replace your classic Friday surgery

37:31

visits to schools and all that kind of stuff. But yeah,

37:33

it's easy to communicate as an

37:36

NBI. I think that's got to be a plus.

37:38

Just on the Ken Clark stuff,

37:40

if you ever get him talking about letters being

37:42

sent, I think he got quite a few letters

37:44

from Brian Clough complaining

37:47

about immigration, picking up on one

37:49

of your earlier points of not being able to sign letters

37:51

for Nottingham Forest. You should get him to tell you those stories

37:53

if you get out of such stage. What

37:56

does your parents do? So my dad

37:58

was a fireman.

37:59

Yeah. And my mum did various

38:01

jobs in the main residence

38:03

as children, really around the shift patterns

38:06

of the fire brigade. But she worked for

38:08

Providence, the long period. It

38:10

was my first economic knowledges

38:13

come from the experience of seeing how

38:15

that business worked and what that meant. She

38:18

also did a lady for a bit

38:20

and they actually met the two of them when

38:23

they were, I think 16

38:25

year olds, at National

38:27

Savings in Durham, which is

38:29

a

38:30

big office, was based there at

38:32

the times from when I decided to become an affierman,

38:35

so by fighter, we should say. And

38:38

yeah, as I've seen a lot

38:40

in recent years. And yeah, I mean,

38:43

so I often say you mentioned that the Northeast

38:45

and growing up there, I mean, I

38:48

often say where I come from is the classic, you

38:50

know, working class labor communities

38:52

where it's not, people

38:54

talk about old

38:56

and new labor, but actually people understand what I'm

38:59

talking about, classic labor, I'm talking about work being the absolute

39:01

center of working class life,

39:03

you know, whether that was shipbuilding

39:06

and mining or public sector jobs like being

39:09

in the fire brigade, but the whole of family

39:11

life. I mean, we would go on, you know, we have Christmas

39:13

parties that were run by the fire brigade's union, we would go sometimes

39:16

on holiday with fire brigade families

39:18

like that. That really did shape it.

39:20

And I remember Russ said

39:22

this to some people yesterday, really powerful memories. Obviously,

39:26

fire brigade day shifts, night shifts, days, that

39:28

actually means, you know, dad was

39:30

around, you know, home a

39:32

lot here, cooking and things like

39:35

that, there was no kind of, you know,

39:38

some sort of

39:39

old fashioned, you know, mathematical intuition

39:41

of labor, you know, really good model for

39:43

your dad, seeing him do that. I always

39:45

remember, because what you never would

39:47

want a job like that is you didn't want your dad to be on

39:50

day shift on Christmas day. Yeah. And

39:52

they, oh, I think I still do it now. Firefighters,

39:55

the older people with grown

39:57

up children would volunteer to take the shifts

39:59

to be with your kids. families could be home, you know, against

40:01

the plastic and everything in your

40:04

family life is based around that.

40:06

I mean, it's a, I read over the summer, most

40:10

of my like, leisure reading is actually economic and history

40:12

and political books, but sometimes there's too much.

40:14

I love football, obviously, I'm a football manager.

40:17

I read some of Alex Ferguson's biography

40:19

and he's got this great line in there where he says he always was

40:22

amused and people would usually write things like, you know,

40:25

Alex Ferguson's done so well for a guy

40:27

from the shipbuilding part of governing.

40:30

Sort of think to himself, he says, you know, actually,

40:33

how I do the job is because I can, I can

40:35

relate to people. It doesn't matter if you're managing a pub

40:37

as a professional footballer or a, you

40:39

know, some of

40:41

the biggest things in world football, it's

40:44

not in spite, it's because of that background.

40:46

And I,

40:46

you know, it's in many ways how I feel about

40:49

doing the job as an MP, but also we share the business side.

40:51

Yeah. His book with Michael Moritz

40:54

leading is, is particularly good

40:56

like to that business and thing. It makes a very

40:58

interesting argument in their app, football is not being

41:00

paid enough, which is, he actually

41:03

makes very well. So I was not expecting when I

41:05

sort of started to slide out

41:07

on it. What, what

41:10

do you think the impact of

41:12

AI will be on, on work and

41:14

business? Have you played with much yourself chat GPT?

41:17

Yeah, I mean, it is so

41:20

significant. As you almost feel

41:22

you have to ask, what will it not do, you know? Yeah.

41:24

Is there anywhere it will not affect?

41:26

I mean, first of all, yeah, I

41:29

mean, I, if you ask,

41:31

you know,

41:32

chat GPT, write me a 500 word

41:35

blog on Labour's economic policies, it's

41:38

astounding. Yeah. I mean, it's best fidded.

41:40

Some of the blogs you might read, the people

41:42

have done. If you, I think I won't pass

41:44

it. Could you write me a poem about my constituency?

41:47

Can I represent five, five towns, St. Louis,

41:49

Hyde, Mosley, London, Dhillon, and Duck and Field? And it's

41:52

brilliant. Extraordinary. And

41:55

obviously, we're still at the early stage.

41:57

For me, all this for me, I started in the optimistic. I

42:00

mean, I talked about the mills and the history

42:02

of my constituency, you

42:05

know, London's essentially, in a way,

42:07

response to some of that smashing

42:09

the looms. History always tells

42:11

us that we're quite right to fear

42:13

disruption, how we manage that has to be

42:15

generally considered. But ultimately, there's

42:18

always new forms of employment,

42:20

actually can be even more fulfilling and successful and innovative,

42:24

because we've embraced that change. And so I

42:26

think we've got to see it in that way.

42:29

We're right to be worried about, you know, if

42:31

we got it wrong, what might it mean? I mean, it

42:33

is now a situation where you can canvas people in your

42:35

own constituency, who've seen an image

42:38

that's been manipulated and they believe it's real. Yeah.

42:41

Talk to them about that. Clearly a world where

42:43

you could watch a video of someone and it's not

42:45

really then.

42:46

Yeah.

42:47

There's going to be a sort of, for politics alone,

42:49

a regulatory role

42:52

there and how the commission will do

42:54

that. It goes back as well to that point around, you

42:56

know, ultimately, why do you want good dialogue with

42:58

businesses where you're the government of the opposition? Well,

43:01

could you fix a problem like this without

43:04

that genuine good faith dialogue

43:07

and relationship? Could you get that right? You obviously

43:09

want the UK to be a magnet

43:11

for investment and a place to come

43:13

and develop these ideas, but you've

43:16

also got to make sure a well-regulated

43:18

environment is attractive. It's

43:20

not a burden if you get it right. It's an attractive reason

43:22

to come here and do it. But I

43:25

would say try and summarize

43:28

an incredibly fast moving position. I think people

43:31

here in parliament, government,

43:33

obviously, first of all, they're catching up a little bit with how quickly

43:35

and rapid this has been. I was talking to

43:37

someone in, you know,

43:39

media recently, they're talking about video editing and

43:41

how so much of it can now be

43:44

done through artificial intelligence and key

43:46

words. And they said to me, that's the only reason we're not using

43:48

even more of it because we're talking about people, a

43:50

job that once took three months is now

43:53

being able to be done in a few days. The only reason we're

43:55

not doing more of it is we still need the senior

43:57

people to ultimately review the product.

44:00

become senior experienced enough unless

44:02

they're doing some of it without the aid of

44:04

that kind of technology. So it is going to

44:06

be profound, but

44:09

again, I always remember universities, someone

44:11

telling me they were so firm

44:13

and going to what we would now know as search engine

44:16

optimisation and online

44:18

advertising.

44:19

I remember thinking,

44:21

maybe, I mean, look at the

44:23

size of that. Even most

44:26

politicians down in the election will spend more online advertising

44:28

within you know, the traditional election

44:30

address through the door. I mean, you never know.

44:33

And if you approach it with optimism,

44:36

acknowledge the problems, but make sure

44:38

we are, you know, trying

44:40

to do this in a way which recognises

44:43

that change and innovation is always the basis

44:45

of progress.

44:47

That's how we'll try and get it right. Have you ever had a business

44:49

idea on that?

44:50

Many times, because I get to see

44:52

so many, you know, incredible

44:55

people with their own history of business

44:57

that maybe founded and exited or if they have,

44:59

you know, currently

45:02

they're talking about the stages of development they're going through.

45:05

You are a little bit inspired to think,

45:07

you know, I've got some ideas and I would

45:09

like, you know, not saying we're stealing anyone's ideas, but

45:11

if we come around, you're not going to see me resign from parliament

45:13

and then serve in opposition to that. But

45:15

yeah, I mean, I think because especially

45:17

I, yes, I didn't plan to become

45:19

an MP in 20, maybe longer term was

45:21

interested in it. But I, you know, there have

45:23

been a lot of journeys the Labour Party has frankly

45:26

sort of herself out in many ways and come back to

45:28

be I think in a position to challenge for the

45:31

next election. I feel very much part of

45:33

that story. In fact, coming back after some

45:35

people here, someone said to me, it's like a season finale

45:37

all north as we approach the end of this parliament,

45:40

we'll see how I'm going to be. But I, you know,

45:42

I'd like a part of my life where, you know, maybe

45:44

I get a chance to try things that are a

45:46

bit different, you know, it's a

45:49

pure honor to be absolute honor to be a member

45:51

of parliament in any circumstances. But, you

45:53

know, these days, we do live in a world where you can think about

45:55

different careers and parts of it. So

45:57

yeah, I keep a little set of ideas. might

46:00

be different in 10 years, but who

46:02

is in that position then to do it? But yeah, I mean, I

46:05

admire people to take the personal risk of developing

46:07

some of those ideas. I think sometimes we

46:10

need to acknowledge that it's

46:13

harder to do that if you've got nothing to fall back on.

46:15

Yeah. Some people doing it either a stage

46:17

in their life, obviously, they've got a family background that allows them

46:20

to do that. So it's, you know, after going

46:22

back to that story, about going back to law school, I mean,

46:24

I have no margin for error. Yeah, yeah, really.

46:27

My people are taking that risk, but in that situation, it

46:30

wouldn't have been a reasonable thing for my family. And

46:32

that's why at that time, that was so important

46:34

to go in,

46:35

to get a training contract and do that.

46:37

You're in a position later on in your life where you could do that.

46:40

I do have a bit of theory. Actually, a lot of entrepreneurs

46:42

either come from the kind of upper classes, so they can

46:44

kind of like afford to take the time and the risk

46:46

to do it, or they come from the working classes where they

46:49

have got much less to sort of lose anyway.

46:51

So actually, you have this sort of dearth of middle class

46:53

entrepreneurship. But what

46:57

would be your dream job? I'm not talking

47:00

politics. Sometimes I ask politicians, they get

47:02

very sort of like, as if I'm going to lead you into a

47:05

coup on your leadership. But not doing that.

47:07

But it's like, what would be your sort of dream

47:09

job? Deep sea scuba diver.

47:11

See, I sometimes say it's a

47:13

dream of, you know, being a professional

47:15

footballer and playing for Sunderland. Now I'd be

47:18

like a non-exec director of the club. That's

47:21

how your sport and physique changes over time. I'm

47:23

fascinated by the relationship between economics and sport

47:26

and some that have a model

47:28

that are developing younger players and selling them on.

47:30

And that is, you know, it's

47:32

the intersection of quite a few

47:34

different things, which is quite

47:36

interesting. I'm

47:38

also really interested in, I mean, if you look at one of

47:40

the things that really, it really changed

47:43

the world. I mean, obviously, governments,

47:45

politicians, there are international roles as well

47:47

that have a role in that. But I

47:50

also think, I wish I hadn't been in the show of city minister

47:52

for so long, you're

47:53

people who are

47:55

in charge of how capital is allocated, who have

47:57

a say in that, whether that's in the energy sector or from the

47:59

government. FinTech or whatever, that's asset

48:02

management. That's a huge part of it. It's not as glamorous

48:04

as sport or whatever, but that

48:06

is a big part of the story.

48:08

I think, again, we've got to maybe tell the public

48:10

more of a story about how the interplay of some of that stuff

48:13

works because the fact is, in a

48:15

really positive way compared to 20, 30 years

48:18

ago, there are a lot more countries around

48:20

the world where businesses might be thinking of

48:23

investing capital. Going

48:27

back to even the end of the 70s and

48:29

the early 80s, you've still got the

48:31

division of Europe, you've got nothing

48:33

like the kind of competition from the East. That

48:37

has changed a lot. We've got to understand that. We've

48:39

got to be competitive as a country in this. Completely.

48:43

Thanks so much for coming on and doing these jobs for the future. It's

48:45

been a pleasure. Absolutely. Thank you.

48:48

Thank you. Thank you.

48:50

Thank

48:50

you. Thank you. Thank

48:53

you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

48:55

you. Thanks for joining us. You've

48:57

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