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0:29

to this special episode. 2024

0:32

is going to be a massive year

0:34

in politics. One of the

0:36

frustrations that I had with politics when I worked

0:38

in Downing Street was that sometimes business didn't get

0:41

the coverage or the awareness

0:43

that it deserved in the political media. And

0:45

that's why I wanted to bring this new

0:48

series with my great friend Christian May, the

0:50

former editor of City AM, to

0:52

talk a bit more about where business

0:54

and politics overlap, because it's two of

0:57

my favorite subjects. And this is

0:59

the type of conversation that we have down the pub. And

1:03

I thought it needed a wider audience. We've

1:06

always felt that. Every time we go

1:08

for a drink, we think, why aren't people here listening

1:10

to us? Just talk a bit louder.

1:13

I'm sure people will come and listen. Don't gather.

1:19

So, and particularly this week, I just thought it

1:21

was such a kind of good week. We've been

1:23

talking about it for ages, but there was Labour's

1:26

Big Business Day. Prime Minister announced a new business

1:28

council. He also did some help to growth, reboost

1:31

stuff as well. And I just think

1:34

this stuff is fascinating getting behind that,

1:36

because there's a whole industry, believe it

1:38

or not, around helping people to kind

1:40

of navigate government and politics and what

1:43

goes into that, I find endlessly fascinating.

1:45

And so that's why we thought we'd

1:47

sort of start talking a

1:49

little bit about it. And you and I have

1:51

worked at Business and Politics for 10 years. You

1:53

know, we were at the Institute of Directors way

1:55

back. When did you join the IMD? I started

1:57

in the Institute of Directors in 2000. and

2:00

12, maybe 13, possibly the

2:02

end of 2012. Yeah,

2:07

and I joined in 2014, just

2:09

ahead of the 2015 election. In

2:11

fact, my first day was when Boris Johnson decided he

2:14

was gonna become a member of parliament for Oxbridge and

2:16

put his hat in the ring for it again, which

2:19

I suppose ended up shaping British politics for another

2:22

10 years, one way or another. And

2:26

what's your kind of reflections on

2:28

working at the IOD? Because it's worth kind of

2:31

explaining a bit about what the institute of directors

2:33

already falling into that. But what these sort of

2:35

different lobby groups do, because you've got the

2:38

institute of directors, British chambers of commerce,

2:40

confederation of British industry, CBI, and

2:43

what these groups do. Well,

2:46

there are a number of them, as you say, and a

2:48

lot of them have different reasons, different

2:52

appeals, different reasons why a business would

2:54

sign up and join. I think in

2:56

the institute of directors, one of the

2:58

reasons why people would join was

3:01

because of the level of support the IOD would give you

3:04

as a company director. But one

3:06

thing that all these groups have in common

3:08

is that at least the part of their

3:10

operation is dedicated to representing the interests of

3:12

their members to government,

3:15

whoever's in government. And

3:17

that was particularly our focus at

3:19

the IOD. We were running their policy team,

3:21

the policy unit, and so

3:24

that really included all the sort

3:26

of policy research and advocacy, almost

3:28

like a think tank kind of business and economic

3:30

think tank within the IOD. And

3:34

representing those positions in public

3:36

and in the media, but

3:38

also through regular

3:40

meetings with the treasury, with number 10, with

3:42

the business department, and

3:44

all the other different parts of Whitehall to

3:48

help not just politicians and

3:50

government, but also officials, the sort of

3:52

permanent political class, Understand

3:54

what are the concerns or priorities or

3:57

issues that businesses have. And That's what

3:59

we're doing. Them in an older business

4:01

groups will day. Sometimes they all came

4:03

together and sometimes with or sign a

4:05

letter together and sometimes would have particular.

4:08

Issues. Effect is and and because it was

4:10

it. As a result, the government. When

4:12

they needed to call on the

4:14

business community for input or in

4:16

response. and you remember there was

4:18

some occasions i think dwindle when.

4:21

It was. Really? Terrible floods,

4:24

Flooding. Across the country and always

4:26

go really bad three governments when as flush

4:28

out because know he can do pot from

4:30

tony waiters and go and be filmed standing

4:32

in a westfield looking sympathetic that one of

4:34

the things got it'll get criticism is no

4:36

evidence of that's one thing government can do

4:38

is to to summon the business groups say

4:40

we were summoned to Downing Street at the

4:42

height of one of the floods with about

4:45

forty minutes nicest I went for the i

4:47

a day and it but it seems the

4:49

com us with their cessation of british he

4:51

saw as with S C B I was

4:53

there. A couple of others. And

4:55

we were met by one of the peons

4:58

but David Cameron's advisors and meetings so hastily

5:00

arranged They didn't have a meeting room so

5:02

he was sort of scrambling run the country

5:04

room and and has we were looking for

5:07

a run on. Never forget the size of.

5:09

Oliver. Letwin it was that is convinced

5:12

big brains at the time. Came.

5:14

Settling. Down one of the corridors, Then

5:17

you get had any shoes on. That's how

5:19

I remember in my mind, but what? I

5:21

also members that he was clutching an enormous

5:24

amount of rolled up Ordnance Survey maps and

5:26

he was looking for a room with the

5:28

table big enough the he could unfair and

5:30

all of these maps. This study terrain and

5:32

photography and I thought. This.

5:35

this is a business is hop is of

5:37

have was thinks it's this is the situation

5:39

room oliver letwin max out but haven't got

5:41

the table big enough to roll them after

5:43

we have them when and had our meeting

5:46

with the and business advises nuances that has

5:48

talk about as by serious matter the business

5:50

and all that kind of the so does

5:52

the other thugs in the business group is

5:54

is to allow the government to announce something

5:56

it it had urged in talks with the

5:59

business community zero but that sort of

6:01

stuff as well. Of course, because I

6:03

posted some thoughts on LinkedIn about Labour's

6:06

business day and the PM's council, et cetera.

6:09

A couple of comments were, where do the

6:11

FSB and IOD kind of fit into all of

6:13

this kind of stuff? Because one of my

6:15

reflections now running a business is that even having

6:17

been in politics, I'm still not aware of all

6:19

the schemes and how to navigate government is

6:21

really hard. Also, what I

6:23

think they're particularly useful for was the thing

6:26

we used to do at the IOD was

6:28

policy voice, where we used to survey 1000

6:30

members. And that

6:32

used to be by when I

6:34

was in number 10, but also colleagues,

6:36

like really valuable information of actually getting,

6:38

what does the business community think of,

6:41

whatever it might be rising corporation tax. That's

6:43

probably not a very good example, but sometimes

6:45

there'll be some interesting stuff around national

6:48

minimum wage and that being increased. Businesses would

6:50

actually be more in favor of that than

6:52

you might think. So that was one of

6:55

the sort of very important things as well.

6:57

Can you remember some of the stuff that

6:59

we used to... Yeah, and it was interesting for us

7:01

because at the time, of course, it was coalition government. So we

7:03

were dealing with Tories in number 11 and 10, the

7:06

Vince Cable, principally in the business department, where we

7:08

would go and talk to him quite regularly. And

7:11

I found Vince Cable perfectly

7:13

sensible when it came to

7:15

understanding the business community, even if

7:17

his instincts were occasionally at odds with

7:20

kind of more free market Tory thinking.

7:23

But we did used to have those meetings and periodically

7:26

you'd be invited in to sit

7:28

around a huge table with the prime minister

7:30

or something and there

7:32

was value in that, but it was almost

7:35

more ceremonial. Because actually the real value was

7:37

when you're in the basement of a

7:39

sub office of the business department, talking to a

7:41

member of the regulatory policy

7:44

committee about a technical detail

7:47

around imports. Because

7:49

actually so much of the

7:52

sort of work that the business groups and

7:54

lobbyists in the private sector do

7:56

is on the technical and

7:58

the unglamorous. and the boring

8:01

and the really, really important. And

8:03

so, yes, it's nice to sort

8:05

of stride up the Downing Street and go

8:08

in and sit down with the chancellor and say, this is

8:10

what our members want. And you know,

8:12

you might feed in and you might be able to give

8:14

a sense of where your members are or what the

8:16

business thinks about X, Y, or Z. I

8:20

would say the greater value comes from being

8:23

able to stop something happening that was ill

8:25

thought through, that would have a really serious

8:28

impact on businesses or

8:30

being able to take an idea and say, listen, this

8:33

is really worth looking at and getting into the nuts

8:35

and bolts of it. There's a very relevant example of

8:37

this, to bring it up at the moment, is the

8:40

investing in startups, something I'm

8:42

passionate about and is a

8:44

great thing for people to do. What

8:46

they have changed now is the limit

8:49

that people can invest at. So you

8:51

need to be sort of self-certified

8:53

as kind of high net worth, individual, et

8:55

cetera, and you have to kind of pass

8:57

these sort of tests if you want to invest on these

9:00

crowd, cube sites, cedars, et cetera. And

9:02

they've shifted the amount from 100,000 to 170,000. Now

9:07

the 100,000 hasn't been updated in years and years.

9:11

So a buffing in the treasury has sort of

9:13

thought, well, that time that we did this, et

9:15

cetera, increased it to 170,000. But

9:21

the sort of the female angel investor

9:23

community has said, well, actually, that's gonna

9:25

really impact quite a lot of female

9:27

investors and we're already struggling with that,

9:29

et cetera, anyway. But the problem

9:32

is no one's actually really sort of noticed this until the

9:34

very last minute. And so now

9:36

there's all this sort of back-channeling and it's

9:38

kind of, it's a great example of where

9:40

like minor legislation can actually sort of have

9:42

an impact because whilst it's not

9:44

gonna change any female angel investor

9:46

at the moment, it might stop the next

9:48

sort of, you know, Debbie Worsco or Emma

9:51

Sinclair or any of these people from thinking

9:53

they could do that. And actually that is,

9:56

it's a great example of where it's such

9:58

a minor piece of government legislation. in some

10:00

ways. And actually what

10:02

it doesn't recognise is the whole landscape of investing

10:04

has changed in the last 10-15 years. There are

10:07

far more ways of doing it now, etc.

10:09

But it is an example of where actually sort

10:11

of lobby groups should try and

10:13

pick that up and just point it out to

10:15

Treasury and so on. Yeah, I think that's absolutely

10:18

right. And when

10:20

I left the IOD to go to

10:22

be the editor of CCAM, I

10:25

started to see the relationship between business and government

10:27

in a different way. And

10:29

I started to speak to businesses

10:32

in a different way. Obviously it was more journalistic,

10:36

and it was no longer, obviously

10:39

my job to try and help them talk

10:41

to government. But precisely the

10:43

sorts of things that you were just talking about, you'd

10:45

have all these off the record conversations with businesses and

10:47

what they might be saying publicly about the government's budget

10:50

or direction of travel. They would

10:52

say to you off the record that they just don't

10:54

understand this, or they really dropped the ball here or

10:56

whatever it was. We're

10:59

talking about the relationships between business and politics

11:02

and from both of our perspectives, the sort of

11:04

third wheel in that is

11:06

the media. Business, politics and the media

11:08

and the relationship between them and where

11:11

they overlap and where there are points

11:13

of tension is really interesting. And

11:15

by the time I was embarking on my

11:17

editorial career, I think

11:19

you've gone off to work for

11:21

incoming Prime Minister. Yes, Theresa

11:23

May. But we should talk

11:26

about your time because that was your job

11:28

in number ten for Theresa May's Prime Minister

11:30

was to liaise with the business community. But

11:33

you mentioned at the beginning. I've not talked to the

11:35

media. And certainly you've talked to the media now, I

11:37

know. Very difficult. When one of your best friends gets

11:39

jobs like that and you call them up, you have

11:41

to get used to saying, is this on the record?

11:44

Is this off the record? I'm just calling for a

11:46

chat, Nate. You

11:48

mentioned at the beginning of this about Labour having

11:50

their big business day, their big business festival this

11:52

week. And we should spend a bit of time

11:54

talking about that because it's

11:56

really very, very interesting and probably

11:58

the most interesting. about it is

12:01

how it represents almost just visually the

12:03

journey that the Labour Party had been

12:05

on under Keir Starmer.

12:07

I think you and I have

12:09

discussed before how much quicker Keir

12:12

Starmer and his team have achieved this

12:14

transformation compared to how long I

12:16

thought it would take them to be so obviously

12:18

not Corbyn. The fact

12:20

that they have now earned the right

12:22

to be heard, they've got this huge

12:25

level of interest from the business community,

12:27

I think is worth exploring because if you look

12:30

at some of the coverage of yesterday's business

12:32

extravaganza, you

12:35

could be forgiven for thinking that it was like

12:37

a rally and that everyone in the audience was

12:39

cheering for a Labour government. Whereas

12:42

in fact, probably worse is stepping back and saying actually,

12:45

the vast majority of people in that audience are

12:48

professional public affairs

12:50

professionals, and they're very

12:52

good at their job and it is their job

12:54

to understand and interact with and hear

12:57

about government and income and

12:59

government and perfectly pragmatic perspective is that

13:01

Labour Party has been turning points in the

13:04

polls for six months and probably might

13:06

tighten a bit but the smart money is that

13:09

Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves will lead the next

13:11

government and so of course there's now this interest

13:14

and it makes perfect sense in fact it's essential

13:16

for the businesses to hear about what Labour's going

13:18

to be like for the

13:20

economy and for businesses. I'm not

13:23

sure I've confused that at this stage

13:25

with an overwhelming enthusiasm

13:28

or anticipation of a Labour government

13:30

because there's a lot of questions to

13:32

be answered so I think

13:35

it's absolutely the case that business is

13:37

taking Labour very very seriously and it's

13:39

definitely the case that Labour is taking

13:41

the business community very very seriously and

13:43

that's political, that's a political positioning exercise,

13:45

the extent to which even Angela Rayner

13:47

without you know on

13:50

the stage at the business conference yesterday

13:52

saying I love CEOs, I love businesses,

13:54

they're grafters, I get them, I love

13:56

them, you know it is a very

13:58

very long way from the job. and Corbyn,

14:00

John McDonnell era and that's a very

14:02

deliberate strategy, of course it is. It's

14:04

a ruthlessness as well that Labour is

14:06

showing, right, and it's discipline

14:09

and really wanting to be in power,

14:11

which is something that Labour Party has

14:13

had a bit more, traditionally it's not

14:15

perhaps, you know, the Conservative Party will

14:17

be seen to do anything to get

14:19

into government and stay there etc. Whereas

14:22

Labour Party is not quite sometimes as disciplined as

14:24

that and you're seeing it at the moment, right,

14:26

they are all on message, they are all throwing

14:29

the line and it's very impressive in

14:31

that regard, whereas you've got

14:33

all kinds of factions happening in the

14:36

Conservative Party etc. And

14:38

Angela Rayner as well has been doing this

14:40

quite a while, like she was at the CBI conference

14:42

a year ago on the Future of Work and she

14:45

gave that sort of, you know, I'm a grafted speech,

14:47

I'm like you and that's kind of what businesses sort

14:49

of want to hear in

14:51

terms of just a bit of empathy and

14:53

a bit of understanding that, you know, people...

14:55

Well, it's reassurance, you know, I mean it's

14:57

really not that long ago that the Labour

15:00

Party under Jeremy Corbyn

15:03

and even before that under Ed Miliband

15:05

was of a very different colour and

15:07

perspective and, you know, their instincts were,

15:09

let's say Ed Miliband's opposition

15:11

was hostile to the business community, it

15:14

wasn't, but it was much more kind

15:16

of intellectualised, left-wing approach to it. Jeremy

15:18

Corbyn's Labour Party was actually just hostile

15:20

to the idea of wealth and profit

15:22

and all that comes from that. And

15:25

of course, Kestama's party in

15:27

terms of mood music and positioning, you

15:29

know, exactly as you put it, the

15:31

ruthlessness with which they're trying to anticipate

15:33

and shut down every Tory tank for

15:36

the general election campaign. And

15:38

sometimes that's really specific on matters of

15:40

tax and sometimes it's on mood music

15:42

and that we are aligned with the

15:44

business community, the business community is taking

15:46

us seriously. So it was a very

15:48

good... One Of

15:51

the things we did at the ID was we would

15:53

have sort of breakfast with the various party leaders, etcetera,

15:55

and I remember us doing one with Ed Miliband's office,

15:57

and it just popped into my head. The

16:00

conference between yeah and he'd said

16:02

and we must recognize the good

16:04

the business to do. And.

16:07

Then he went on was next point i'm you actually

16:09

said to his team I was his blinds of shit

16:11

load load would have until now I said so like.

16:14

To. Give an example, give a couple

16:16

of examples of were business does do

16:18

got like just go that little bit

16:20

further A not that's what say I

16:22

mean ago was for some article and

16:25

I confess I think ah probably set

16:27

the ideal relationship with Admin advanced sack

16:29

quantity paces already been in the job

16:31

that for at the Id for a

16:33

couple of months I think I'm a

16:35

win at Milliband. Gave a speech as

16:38

leaders, the opposition and planning. I think

16:40

he was announcing plans that the next

16:42

day the government under Admin events. Would

16:44

and would cease undeveloped land held

16:46

by property developers if they hadn't

16:48

bill heinz on within a few

16:50

years. And ah, sort

16:52

of free market instincts on of bristled

16:55

at this and I was talking to

16:57

a journalist think the male who asked

16:59

what's the Id thought about it and

17:01

and I think I must have used

17:04

the word Stalinist. In fact I know

17:06

I used to my Stalinist. I said

17:08

it's a bit Stalinist talk about seizing

17:10

land and and the next day the

17:12

front page of Daily Mail. Had.

17:15

The word Stalinist in quotes

17:18

is a huge splash Headline.

17:20

Milliband Stalinist plans, attacks and opening paragraph

17:22

in a last night the Initiative directors

17:25

accused experts say you can imagine on

17:27

in a after the slight sort of

17:29

an endorphin his certificate not just how

17:31

important I am I to trace it

17:34

enormous front page story also that wore

17:36

off am I thought I think I

17:38

might se of also have set them

17:40

off the pacific with if we definitely

17:42

has some some buildings of bridges to

17:45

do with with admit a band lead

17:47

fancy after that there is some. It's

17:49

funny because I see anything. Like thoughts

17:51

on his way around. So it's way

17:53

thirteen fourteen? Yeah, it was not clear.

17:55

day becomes go in my room Majority

17:58

Actually the most similar sort of. Muslims.

18:00

Not a bit more about what labor's

18:02

doing, what batons would be exaggerate, What

18:04

would Balls and Milliband wanted a for

18:06

the economy of Movies in Income to

18:09

transpire Sunday? Not. As overwhelming feeling

18:11

is is this time but it is

18:13

if it is a good example of

18:15

the Id Sam near it a street.

18:17

Is she the fear In a in

18:19

hindsight it was obvious the ever and

18:21

is what business is a massive you

18:23

like it Labor's Business conference Lucky was

18:25

there. Yes as I said the audience

18:27

was of the fast vessels is that

18:29

job to be das but look he

18:31

appeared on stage from big businesses and

18:33

Lucky was sponsoring the that an unlucky

18:35

with been a good was paying thousands

18:37

of past at a dinner with Labour

18:39

the night before. And you look at these people.

18:42

May think of course they're taking things

18:44

face you seen in a the way

18:46

the wind is blowing and on stance

18:48

and but what labour gonna be looking

18:50

for in one up to the next

18:52

and during the campaign his endorsements via

18:54

is an innate serious people Business is

18:56

business groups entrepreneurs signing letters saying it's

18:58

time for labour in such as a

19:00

at the moment that the they're in

19:02

a pre endorsements days there in the

19:04

engagement phase and but they're gonna be

19:06

looking for business leaders to actually endorsed

19:08

the labour policies in the idea of

19:10

labour government and. I. I

19:13

don't know if they will get thousand and this is

19:15

where our talk to you about. How

19:17

you do try and tease business

19:19

leaders and businesses and brands to

19:21

come on board? And yeah, really

19:24

associate themselves with the government to

19:26

their the difference between providing expert.

19:29

Inputs. To government thinking and

19:31

being available. in being on Prime

19:33

minister's business councils and and participating

19:35

in events, there a difference between

19:37

that and coming up and saying.

19:40

This country needs a labour government and you for

19:42

your job at number Ten was. Probably.

19:44

Trying to manage that balance and the

19:46

I had wondered how you went about

19:48

that. am i mean i've spent

19:50

all my time trying to get sort of

19:52

endorsements for their respective deals from businesses as

19:55

a part will i sort of was that

19:57

do and we were dismissed it is is

19:59

detailed really good one. This is the final one.

20:01

This is the final one. If we don't get

20:03

your help with this one, who knows what will

20:06

come next.

20:09

I mean it's very difficult, particularly for public

20:11

companies. There's a bit of a distinction here

20:13

in terms of public companies

20:15

listed on the stock exchange will

20:18

not like getting involved in it because don't forget,

20:21

even if Labour have an amazing result at the

20:23

election, they're still not going to be getting over

20:25

45% in an absolute

20:27

top, top scenario. So that still means you've got

20:29

half the country that didn't vote for them and

20:31

another portion of people who don't vote at all.

20:34

So there is

20:36

always a nervousness from those, particularly big

20:38

retailers and whatever. Big

20:40

consumer facing brands. Exactly. Or just

20:42

sort of really spoils it. But

20:44

then there are companies

20:46

that, private

20:49

companies are much more kind of like flexible with

20:51

this kind of stuff and are open to it.

20:54

So that would often be where I would try

20:56

and start to. But I did understand

20:58

businesses not wanting to put their names to it

21:00

and they never want to be first and they

21:02

want to know who else is there. There's always

21:04

that kind of like challenge with it.

21:06

What's the letter going to say, et cetera.

21:08

So I slightly think the letter writing

21:11

mould is broken

21:13

a little bit for it. But where it's

21:16

different, if I were thinking from the Labour

21:18

party's point of view, I think the Labour

21:20

party has more to gain from getting business

21:22

endorsements. I actually think the Conservative party getting

21:24

business endorsements doesn't particularly help. It's not particularly

21:26

surprising. So I don't think we'll see that

21:28

in the run up to the election this

21:31

year. But I think Labour will try and

21:33

do it. But I think it's hard

21:35

and I think you can do it in

21:38

the modern world. You can be a bit sort of smarter

21:40

about it. I mean, you

21:43

sort of is business leader now. Mark Carney

21:45

at Labour party conference and sort of doing

21:48

a video message for Reeve beforehand saying

21:51

it's time to implement her ideas. I mean, that's

21:53

about as close up to the line as you

21:55

can get without sort of an

21:57

endorsement. Well, you've been very

21:59

diplomatic. No sir, I recall Mark Carney, a business

22:01

leader. Wow. I think I'll call him more of a

22:04

kind of. Professional.

22:06

Member of the globally sissy like

22:08

opportunist, full blown ah, climate change

22:11

bandwagon, financier that if that's what

22:13

passes for business leader these days

22:15

than and fair enough, but it

22:17

sounds I'm hoping that they'll get.

22:19

I mean, they have handles with

22:21

this week from Rich Volkow I'm

22:23

yeah, but he was endorsing the

22:25

Tories the week before that. About

22:27

M C C that are, it's

22:29

it's sunny. Embarrassing. Third, one week

22:31

been rising to the current Prime

22:33

Minister saying one when you make

22:35

me it's. Orientation and get no answer

22:37

answer. The following week you you announce

22:39

that you the rats view all guns

22:42

blazing for labour that the Am but

22:44

he's been on a journey and that

22:46

Perfectly understandable. But the but he's a

22:48

good example of your private business. Yeah

22:50

sticky. a private business or not Opener

22:52

who has a public profile beyond just

22:54

that business yes I'm which which Mr.

22:56

Walker said need us and up there

22:59

are plenty of others. Yeah I mean

23:01

is one of my big So predictions

23:03

that x twenty thirty years you'll see

23:05

more businesses go. Into politics and number

23:07

reasons for this police become much easier

23:09

to make money earlier in your career

23:11

with Internet Zone so I see you're

23:13

getting Entrepreneurs have made here several million

23:15

quid before the age of forty Now

23:17

some them wanna do it again but

23:19

some of the movie so more. Think

23:21

about what kind of public good they

23:23

can do and mammals he's allow for

23:25

real roofs and sixteen industry already do

23:27

it for example for see I've done

23:29

this Now that and conservative math the

23:31

West Midlands Command Authority not. The.

23:34

Even mentions the conservative bit of them.

23:36

Bucks hadn't either. and it's exciting. That's

23:38

quite interesting thing that we will we

23:40

say on that. I mean I have

23:42

been alive high as damning. My seeds

23:44

yesterday were just pictures of people of

23:46

this play The Pie Business Conference it

23:49

was all of them are that and

23:51

thousand minutes. Harm and I logged on

23:53

to Linked in the last year. Well,

23:55

I don't get a suggested job as

23:57

he had been delayed parties east Midlands.

24:00

Business, regional lead or something like that. get

24:02

hurt, you be back at it and hobbled

24:04

a good at these minutes bets out of

24:06

have supper At it's core, Adam is quite.

24:09

A year that they have foot and

24:11

hope for consider my work and scissors

24:13

for some time it will be I

24:16

genuinely asked hype of I think it

24:18

will be fascinating to and wants to

24:20

save the do get more dawson's because

24:22

that's what they will be after yeah

24:24

but I think people are waiting to

24:26

see what their policies are really gonna

24:28

look and feel like because they get

24:31

at the moment it's been, positioning has

24:33

been made music and if a deliberate

24:35

and strategic what is the Labour party's

24:37

pets and policies to the business community.

24:39

Ritual Ways as made a big song

24:41

and about the City of London yeah

24:44

I'm in a in a joint op

24:46

ed with with with City Com. Where

24:49

they say all the right things and Rachel

24:51

read says into said it in Davos Labor

24:53

is the party of wealth creation and and

24:56

this is This is really encouraging to the

24:58

business community, but it shouldn't be forgotten the

25:00

late results and posse of wealth tax A

25:02

some see I am. however they want to

25:04

position themselves a moment that they just all

25:07

and I say that probably mindful that the

25:09

Tory party has taken taxation said extraordinarily high

25:11

level in this country over that time in

25:13

office, that the Labour Party. I

25:15

will be devising ways to tax wealth and

25:18

I'm sure if it's Am but say it's

25:20

has a positioning they want to save. with

25:22

a potted wealth creation myth party of business

25:24

we support risk but there's always a cameo.

25:27

This. Is still the Labour party? in a

25:29

they are still will be now more mainstream

25:31

center left incarnation of the Labour party than

25:33

than in recent years but is still a

25:36

Labour party and people should remember the damage

25:38

things aren't going to be. Different

25:40

city instincts of totally chancellor's toy prime

25:42

ministers and say the labour party will

25:44

say although I things that they would

25:47

also dead say things that for me.

25:49

Make my eyebrows gop little bit. Say it's

25:52

Rachel. Reason case.talk Now. As much as they

25:54

talk about the the party of business, they're

25:56

also saying that. Business. And

25:58

government nanny to work in. The ship more

26:00

than ever before and this is some

26:02

sort of joint venture between the private

26:04

sector in the state and. I'm.

26:07

Mindful of in a stakeholder

26:09

capitalism and of course businesses.

26:12

Are gonna have points of interest overlap

26:14

with the government and party politics? But

26:16

but it just it is not the

26:18

job of businesses to work in partnership

26:20

with gotten the Yes, it is not

26:22

the job of businesses to. Try

26:24

to make sure they're aligned with the aims,

26:26

the government, and beyond the extent to which

26:29

doing so is in the interests of their

26:31

business. And so I understand the way I

26:33

that the bases chase on send the way

26:35

in which businesses tend to not be much

26:37

more. Mindful of wider stakeholders and

26:40

that's a good thing know so

26:42

principally mindful of shareholders yeah hadn't and

26:44

it is not necessarily that the first

26:46

order of business for an affair authorities

26:49

executive or board or an entrepreneur or

26:51

an investor to to consider how

26:53

their decisions and their properties in

26:55

their strategies and support or line

26:57

with the Saturday's of the government of

26:59

the day so the who should be

27:02

mindful of the extent to which labor

27:04

that want to support business to their

27:07

words and but but also. Expect this

27:09

kind of partnership is within an an

27:11

addendum. where is that that but denied

27:13

that Just remind people that we are

27:15

talking about labour government. Yeah it's gonna

27:17

be pretty different to a Tory government

27:19

hopping those Amina of a will be

27:21

i think a know that you're white

27:23

sofa instincts but it's also a my

27:25

reflections of being of moon so disease

27:27

along comes dance parties right the so

27:29

much those kind of com a dozen

27:31

semi com and departments accenture the a

27:33

the prime minister in and some second

27:36

any sort of focus on of the

27:38

things on. What are they going to

27:40

sort of pick as those prices Hundred

27:42

votes as time on. The. and to

27:44

concerts parties have been a problem with it's

27:46

second half of it's fourteen years it's been

27:48

taken it would break sake right virus you

27:51

craving cetera and events always happens prime ministers

27:53

and governments to be sas but it does

27:55

mean the yeah what are your sort of

27:57

second tier issues econ of want to focus

27:59

on and and Obviously, Cameron Osborne, a

28:01

big thing that they did for the biggest business

28:03

community was bring down corporation tax, and that's now

28:06

going back up. And that's frustrating for businesses that

28:08

want a sort of plan, et cetera, and so

28:10

on, particularly international businesses when you're sort of chucking

28:12

and changing tax amounts. And with

28:14

that in mind, that one of the Labour Party's

28:16

biggest policies at the moment is to

28:18

commit that they will not raise corporation

28:20

tax higher than the level at which

28:23

the Tories have set it. But

28:25

there will be so much maneuvering

28:28

and flanking and outflanking in

28:31

courting the business vote come the general election.

28:33

And if the Tories thought that it was going to

28:35

be easy for them to be

28:38

able to say, we as the Tory Party

28:40

are committed to this little tax cut or pledging

28:42

to look at that tax cut in the future,

28:44

because they think that it would make Labour be

28:48

on the wrong side of that argument, they are

28:50

mistaken because Labour is anticipating this at every turn.

28:52

And they're not falling into every trap that

28:55

the Tories want to set them. Although

28:57

the trap that they might be falling into or

29:00

their own regard is on this issue of

29:02

whether or not they're gonna find 28

29:04

billion quid for green transition

29:06

or green future or whatever it was.

29:08

That figure is still

29:11

hanging around their necks a little bit. And

29:13

of course, for those that perhaps aren't familiar

29:15

with the policy, long, long

29:17

time the Labour Party has said that they will spend

29:19

28 billion on the green transition

29:22

or green revolution, whatever it might

29:24

be. And of course, the

29:26

Tories have been able to say, well, where are you

29:28

gonna find that money? You're gonna borrow it. You're gonna

29:30

put taxes up. And that's

29:32

dangerous territory for the Labour Party to have to be

29:34

defending itself on. And so they've decided, I think by

29:36

the looks of it, to bite the bullet and

29:39

say, well, 28 billion, not

29:41

a cast iron commitment. I think just this

29:43

morning, I heard

29:45

Kirstar must say that whilst it wasn't a

29:47

firm pledge, it was,

29:49

what was the phrase

29:51

he used? It was an exciting ambition or,

29:56

I can't even remember it was gonna manifest. Yeah, he's

29:58

basically put it on his sort of. board,

30:00

you know, his wish list, because

30:03

they don't want to actually go into the

30:05

election defending a policy that the Tories

30:07

will easily be able to point out is

30:10

going to have serious economic consequences. And this

30:12

is where Labour at the moment are, and

30:14

this is the party's whole strategy, not just

30:16

business and economic one, but they shrink the

30:18

target, right? Like give the Conservative Party less

30:20

to kind of go at you, whereas Corbyn's

30:22

was very much the kind of the opposite,

30:24

huge target, like, can you get a kind

30:26

of thing in your mind? Exactly, almost too

30:28

much arguably in some ways, but that's a

30:30

conversation with different day paths.

30:32

But whereas they're sort of really shrinking the

30:35

target. And this is where I do think more broadly,

30:37

I am, you know, I wrote a

30:39

predictions piece at the start of the year on my

30:41

sub stack saying that I actually think

30:43

Labour will end up between 300 and 330 seats. Now

30:46

I may well come to regret that and

30:48

that may well be a mistake. But I

30:50

do think you see things with 28 billion,

30:52

you see it on things like the child

30:54

benefits and sort of capping that where the

30:56

Labour Party is still making mistakes when it

30:58

kind of gets forced into stuff. For the

31:00

last 18 months, almost two

31:03

years, really, the Labour Party strategy has been,

31:05

you know, that the Conservatives sort

31:07

of blow both feet off

31:09

of, you know, saw not shotguns,

31:11

etc. In the next year, it

31:13

is going to change and the intensity is going

31:15

to wrap up on Labour about like, what are

31:17

you going to do? Like, what is it? And

31:19

particularly when the election is called, both

31:22

sides end up having to have exactly the same

31:24

broadcast time, which is something

31:26

in 2017. And I think we didn't sort

31:29

of, I think that ended up having a bigger

31:31

effect on the campaign than we

31:33

thought to reason maybe as Jeremy

31:35

Corbyn. I think that there

31:38

is a challenge for Labour with this

31:40

of, you know, what are their plans

31:42

going to be? And, you

31:44

know, how do they communicate them? Because actually, there

31:46

is things like the 28 billion plan where they've,

31:48

you know, they have now got this number around

31:51

their neck and they can't really get away from

31:53

it. And they're going to be asked in every

31:55

single business and economics interview they do about

31:58

that. So it's where I think like the

32:00

next election is not quite as

32:02

sort of sewn up as everyone thinks

32:04

and you know you look at Brexit

32:06

referendum in 2016, general election in 2017

32:08

and 2019, campaigns can really

32:13

shift the dial in the one major. You

32:15

know it's not like 97 2001 where you

32:19

know the boats were almost known sort of

32:21

beforehand so I think it's going to be

32:23

fascinating year in that regard in terms of

32:25

because I think the British probably will again

32:28

then at the moment they're not quite sort

32:30

of tuning in. That's right

32:33

I mean so the only kind of grounds

32:35

for hope or optimism that Tory strategists

32:38

have at the moment is the large

32:40

number of undecided voters that still exist

32:43

and so voters are constantly being segmented there are

32:45

votes up for grabs and the Tories are going

32:48

to try and figure out a way to get

32:50

them and the group that the Labour

32:52

Party is conscious of as I think

32:54

they've identified eight million voters who they label

32:56

as green curious. People

32:58

for whom the environmental issues have come

33:00

up the agenda in terms of deciding

33:02

how they vote and one

33:05

Labour source was quoted as saying that just

33:08

to keep those eight million green curious

33:10

voters on side every so often they'll

33:12

let Ed Miliband out with his green

33:14

ukulele and he can sing them a

33:16

little kumbaya 28 billion song and

33:19

basically when was the last time you saw Ed

33:21

Miliband out on broadcast

33:23

media he's being kept quite

33:25

I mean I would say he's being

33:27

kept quite deliberately for

33:30

particular purposes for particular audiences because the only

33:32

people you've heard from at the moment in

33:34

the shadow I mean in recent weeks and

33:37

not months is Johnny Reynolds shadow business secretary

33:39

who I got to know when I was

33:41

editor at City AM and he was serving

33:43

in Corbyn shadow cabinet and I

33:45

don't think I'm portraying any confidence is when I say

33:47

that he and I used to get together and talk

33:49

and he would basically say it's

33:52

awful it's terrible but you know and I'd say

33:54

why are you in the shadow cabinet why and

33:56

he would say and listen he said I think

33:58

someone's got to be here you

34:01

know, for when the lines get turned off, the Labour Party is not

34:03

always going to be like this. And

34:06

look at him now. Yeah, well, that's the

34:08

same reasons Keir Starmer used to say

34:10

as well. But that was, yeah, that's

34:12

right. That was Keir's defense as well. But

34:14

so you've got Johnny Reynolds, Rachel Rees,

34:16

Keir Starmer. This is, at the moment,

34:18

whether it's just this particular period on the

34:20

Labour Party message grid, these are the

34:22

people you see. This is the territory

34:24

they want to be on, business, economy, you

34:27

can trust us. And

34:29

this 28 billion figure Ed Miliband doing

34:31

his little TikTok videos in a wind

34:33

farm have kind of been pushed

34:35

down the grid a bit. But whether we'll see

34:37

more of them, I don't know, probably be more

34:39

specifically targeted. It does also show Starmer's ruthlessness, because

34:41

he took the business bit off Miliband and gave

34:44

it to Johnny Reynolds a couple of years ago.

34:46

I mean, it's not easy to do that to

34:48

a former party leader. So

34:50

it's, yeah, it will be

34:53

fascinating to... And

34:55

the only one final thing that we should just before we

34:57

wrap up is for all this

34:59

talk and excitement about the opposition and how they're

35:02

positioning themselves and getting business support. The

35:04

government is still governing. Yeah. And you'll know this,

35:06

because you've been in number 10, when the polls

35:08

were good and when things were a bit tricky.

35:11

But nevertheless, if you're a

35:13

business leader with a problem, do you want to talk to

35:15

a leader of the opposition or do you want to talk

35:17

to a person in government? And it is still, for some

35:19

months at least, this government, the

35:21

Tory government, and they aren't going down

35:23

without a fight. And by

35:25

accident or design, they unveiled their

35:28

own new business council. Yes. Number

35:30

10 is new council of business leaders. They

35:33

unveiled that on the same day that Labour was gathering

35:35

with their business support of business audience.

35:38

So what is a prime minister's business council, Jimmy?

35:41

How do people come onto it and what's it

35:43

for? Yes. Well, this would

35:45

be my mastermind topic probably. So there's

35:48

plenty to kind of talk about, maybe

35:50

my PhD topic rather than my mastermind

35:52

topic. But it's essentially,

35:54

a Prime minister works

35:56

about 90 hours a week. And Actually, when

35:59

you strip out, How cabinet and that? The

36:01

engagement or they have to do so.

36:03

Cabinet. P. M Q's prepping for

36:05

paint Keys audience for the King. There

36:07

isn't that much time left flexibility in

36:09

the diary of things and they can't

36:11

see business as much as they would

36:14

like. Tape and save. These councils also

36:16

designed to get let's get a wide

36:18

range of people in Cummins. he promised

36:20

her ones month my boots accords us

36:22

and give him a view of the

36:24

state of the nation of things. And

36:26

that is what these business councils odds

36:28

on. states now having to a number

36:31

of these together over the years. They

36:33

are quite. Challenging. In

36:35

terms of and phone lots of things we

36:37

taught by yeah yeah you be want big

36:39

business that you want entrepreneurs that you want

36:41

people to scaled you need businesses to a

36:43

public any did the privates he needs to

36:45

get the gender balance of these things right

36:47

and then you also need to make so

36:49

that you get business is more on the

36:51

United Kingdom is hop. says. We'll

36:53

kind of like the of sort of jigsaw

36:55

puzzle aveo torrents meet different people use any

36:58

people the performers as well that do well

37:00

in these things and when on his own

37:02

number ten minutes had to make sure we

37:04

got people that. Particular. Ones at

37:06

that age bracket and been so com

37:08

that for example that was a balance

37:10

needs to be taken smarmy. See this

37:13

book of monster that a Quebec Cvt

37:15

by to leave? I'm on. So you've

37:17

got all these sort of things you're

37:19

trying to balance and it's some. It's

37:21

com casey. eighty people that exports and

37:23

in need different manufacturers ice the council

37:25

he put together. This. Week I

37:28

think. I. Actually did pretty good

37:30

job of it and anselm, but I was

37:32

actually spies It was a big retirement I

37:34

wasn't a big supermarket in as wasn't say

37:36

Reese Tesco ominous didn't exactly might have been

37:38

asked and said night. Possibly.

37:44

For unlikely I think I'm I don't

37:46

mean to be fair if you're Tesco

37:48

and he beat out a quick word

37:50

with the business sectors that you can

37:52

do Yeah, don't need to be listed

37:54

on the minutes to a quarterly Prime

37:56

Ministerial Business Council Leasing Yes, that is

37:58

that. Avoid the business. The say yes to

38:00

being on these things. Markers.

38:03

And elements of status within my ear sort

38:05

of going in the back door when I

38:07

mean he's glad our one things are was

38:10

struck by the meetings of them is a

38:12

law diseased in the surly know each other

38:14

settings is sort of yeah semi soon at

38:16

weldon thing again not a sea of tuscany

38:18

to particularly sort of. he has network but

38:20

and the about back where interesting and that

38:23

side where an easy options is kind of

38:25

get your voice. Like. A top table

38:27

and they can be things that you are. Struggling.

38:30

Way for the Business Parliament for example. Like

38:32

a small minded bet that you can bring

38:34

up at these business council's for example prime

38:36

Minister? yeah we aren't getting you. Were.

38:38

Struggling with this particular thing and that's what those

38:41

council's can be. very good at doing is sort

38:43

of on blocking and giving a bit of an

38:45

overview of things that the challenge with it. There

38:48

are many sounds with it but when

38:50

they actually appointed and when they're operating

38:52

is how you make sure that they

38:54

i would into sort of craze i

38:56

lobbying shops near so getting the C

38:59

o these jets or coming in and

39:01

say well here's what would unlock grice

39:03

prime minister is he had reduction in

39:05

as into cc here as soon as

39:07

you have a bar I'm saying and

39:09

will may be great if you could

39:11

extend else might want to sell resin

39:13

lock the case group economic growth and

39:16

little too bright wealthy or profits take

39:18

state's. Gonna ride. That's a bit of a challenge of

39:20

had you make them sort of. See. Are

39:22

actually useful for for all parties in that

39:24

sense By time it a by intimates I'm

39:26

new to me I have five council's armies

39:29

to sort of seen them around so sectors

39:31

around challenges and that was quite a tizzy.

39:33

Kind of put the onus a bit more

39:35

once of the businesses in terms of give

39:37

you come where's ideas for how we can

39:40

kind of and make better use of a

39:42

i am and things like that because if

39:44

you don't have that some proxy magenta setting

39:46

he had to businesses assault on and say

39:48

what they want to do. so when I

39:50

think they're interesting and. It will be

39:53

yeah if Labour do with the election Isis

39:55

yeah it will be interesting to see how

39:57

they kind of construct back of a C

39:59

Anderson as did a report this harvest this

40:02

week. I'm because a do things and become

40:04

them as well known lobbyist in the country

40:06

or said fitness have a nice you and

40:08

I both know he it is a good

40:11

guys and he was very vocal Tory support

40:13

that he has been on a journey of

40:15

philosophical or pragmatic I know he is now

40:18

very vocal Labour supporter and was commissioned to

40:20

write a report on on how Labor can

40:22

engage with the business community. Yeah and then

40:24

I'm sure all of the his clients will

40:27

be reading that with incest of and be

40:29

any more. Cynical view of the will. We

40:31

will listen. We're going to do more of

40:33

the ticket episodes because yeah, business and politics

40:35

in an election year may we get him

40:38

and sit on the guess the A or

40:40

issue or should I say nothing but yeah

40:42

know and it's like if you have found

40:44

this interesting way we live say a of

40:46

free by Yangon such as things in Swiss

40:48

all these are some places and I do

40:50

think this is a really sort of. Under.

40:53

Served topic kind of in the mainstream

40:55

media it is courtney choice or the

40:57

been choice of business and politics but

41:00

seven out of every eight people in

41:02

the United Kingdom that employed room to

41:04

in private sector I'm and it's just

41:06

not that's kind of stuck with me

41:08

and I think trying to explain a

41:10

bit about how politics works and how

41:12

business operates and so on be very

41:14

valuable from kind of people to have

41:17

to understand bit more about how his

41:19

worlds of right I'd say. And also

41:21

I think up another Oliver Letwin anecdote.

41:23

For the next episode know John because most

41:26

of what as know your he hits such

41:28

as your Letwin right to as with your

41:30

favorite Oliver Letwin on assets and I will

41:32

meet at the best ones next week.