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Back for a second episode. Motors

1:01

for years since recovered said that

1:04

of the report about it was

1:06

absolutely ruin the by popular demand

1:08

Absurd to a real this we

1:10

were going to have a better

1:12

job. C B O Y Twenty

1:15

Eight Billiard Dragon's Den does manager

1:17

Since the of the over and

1:19

over the biggest business political news

1:21

of the week was the fact

1:23

that the Cb I've settled with

1:26

the former Director General. Tourney.

1:28

Danko. Jones War

1:30

or that. but I do think there's. An

1:33

interesting question about. What? The Cb

1:35

I is for now on what will it

1:37

be for under labour government and she later

1:39

the yeah yeah it's is reducing question and

1:41

you and you're right we should We should

1:43

absolutely. Just jump. Over

1:46

the legal minefield of. Various.

1:48

Log lawsuits that a hanging over the see

1:51

the line around with What What a mess

1:53

though was We don't need to pick over

1:55

over the demise of the C B. I

1:57

believe we should have. A bit. Of a

1:59

conversation about it. On agree emergency and

2:01

I think some businesses the that

2:03

that that and ran away from

2:05

it and last year has come

2:07

back into the fold and I

2:09

think government is starting to take

2:11

their calls again. I'm which in

2:13

a a week which is important

2:15

because. That the. Membership

2:18

of the Cb. I needs that kind

2:20

of public voice and private engagement on

2:22

his behalf. and but it but it

2:24

does raise the question about what about

2:26

what is the Cb? I get a

2:28

deep now that it's sort of being

2:30

on our back into the party and

2:33

and it's is a i think it's

2:35

really important topic because. The

2:37

membership of the C B I I

2:39

is. A They like to

2:41

talk a lot about how they have businesses

2:43

of all sizes and sexism. That's fine and

2:46

and and is minutes true. But basically what

2:48

I think most people think of them as

2:50

it is the voice of large business. Yeah

2:52

and I'm and that's a pretty penny. importance

2:55

constituency in up national debate in our economy

2:57

and a dent in this is so my

2:59

way from that and as feels like a

3:01

Cb I it had a sort of behaving

3:04

like a think tank in I will they

3:06

want to do soak about. Green.

3:08

Economy this and in a with green

3:11

prosperity. That and as an egg there

3:13

enough voices on that topic. And

3:15

that at the I think someone

3:18

should be more robust and confident

3:20

in in representing the very kind

3:22

of real and important interests of

3:24

the biggest employers the biggest whether

3:26

they are manufacturers, financial services groups

3:28

am et cetera, you can't just

3:31

a pretend that you're just the

3:33

voices know. Smith. Sort

3:35

of entrepreneurship. Meet him soon as businesses

3:37

was either terror groups who really are

3:39

the voice of those entities and and

3:41

be. As I said, Big

3:44

Business does the has to have somebody

3:46

with some confidence in some swagger and

3:48

some Klaus. The are representing its interests

3:50

completely and I saw that. but they.

3:53

Claimed. These to claim they sleep

3:55

one hundred ninety thousand businesses which I

3:57

always thought was sort of of it.

3:59

Yeah. He complained, speak for that Many

4:02

people have that many different shapes and

4:04

sizes. Now they say they speak for

4:06

hundred and seventy house and I'm I'm

4:08

I just think it's still a little

4:10

bit. You farfetched.

4:12

Me of speak that many people and it's become

4:14

very. Everyone's of taper small business.

4:16

I and everyone likes startups and entrepreneurs

4:18

and that side of things. but I

4:21

do think the big business is lacking

4:23

a bit of have a voice I

4:25

need somebody to say the big business

4:27

is a good thing and I do

4:29

think that actually there is no human

4:31

say were any gonna speak for hundreds

4:33

or thousands yeah they employed this many

4:35

million people at dismiss the economy I'm

4:37

Robyn try and sort of do this

4:39

kind of cats or element of at

4:41

which I just think is is quite

4:43

difficult to do and particulars. These groups

4:46

get smaller and get more kind

4:48

of nice interests that actually dad

4:50

nice should become big business I

4:52

would be have a better space

4:54

them to kind of play and

4:56

and it will be really important

4:58

under labour governments. For. Big

5:01

business to have a proper voice of the

5:03

table. Yeah and the difficulty. The groups like

5:05

the C B I have only we experienced

5:07

it a little bit during a time of

5:09

the idea. Where. You might

5:11

wanna take an institutional position which is

5:14

supported by some and do so and

5:16

his lessons he says to be supported

5:18

by other members but on the whole

5:20

he sort of know the territory, urine

5:23

and the Cb I would by nature

5:25

will struggle more that and attention because

5:27

for example and they will have major

5:29

ah high street retailers am on their

5:31

membership ah and they will also have

5:34

the a major digital retailers like Amazon

5:36

on a membership and I know they

5:38

sort of tension that exists between. And

5:41

those kind of members when it comes

5:43

to the C B I taking a

5:45

V on things like. A

5:47

digital transaction, taxes or business rates on the

5:50

high street in said should they will with

5:52

they will be a tension between different paths

5:54

with memberships because it's membership is is is

5:56

so big and so and so diverse with

5:59

it has the. The huge companies

6:01

represented am and how they interact

6:03

with a labour government. If there

6:05

is to be one, As

6:08

really really interesting question because we've

6:10

already seen the Cbr has a

6:12

a new president and en route

6:15

that signs in an extremely well

6:17

known and and experience of business

6:19

cigarettes and from the city and

6:21

and he I believe has recently

6:23

caution labour about going to fall,

6:25

urging them not to go too

6:28

far in some of the sort

6:30

of workers' rights protections that they've

6:32

been talking about so distinctly Employment

6:34

Rights and and Workers' Rights Provisions

6:36

and and the Labour. Party have to

6:38

send. The. Get it took on

6:40

the And that's a really stark reminder that

6:43

if there is to be a Labour government,

6:45

Donated it will be doing things differently

6:48

as far as the business committees concern

6:50

and particularly the big business community. a

6:52

people who are path by nature the

6:54

size of their payroll, more sensitive to

6:56

issues around and minimum wage to work

6:58

as protection some provisions did such as

7:00

a ah that relationship has been not

7:02

say that is of the rocky start

7:04

of course not. This is the job

7:06

of the Cb eyes to speak on

7:09

on on behalf of it's members and

7:11

but it seems say in round one

7:13

in Cook and in public diplomacy with

7:15

Labour party. And they've fallen out over

7:17

this issue already and say it will be

7:19

interesting to see how did not. As the

7:21

see below the Opus and Screwed interact with

7:24

an. An incoming they because

7:26

we told our on the first

7:28

episode about in Anderson's reviews how

7:30

the business community should interact with

7:32

a Labour government and and as

7:34

his clients in. Report. and

7:36

so set set of recommendations there was

7:39

nothing particularly concrete that it would have

7:41

basically seem to say was and the

7:43

business community would like to have a

7:45

better more predictable relationships with government and

7:47

they have had over the last five

7:49

years yeah exactly op's yeah everyone seems

7:51

very experienced a leader yeah let's go

7:53

for a long time in the uk

7:55

and i think you will find a

7:57

way through before and sort of rebounds

8:00

the CBI and kind of get it going

8:02

because I do think that business needs to

8:04

do it. And the

8:06

question of how the CBI

8:08

interacts with the Labour government is

8:11

actually just part of a bigger question about how is

8:13

the business community going to get on under a Labour

8:15

government. So it's one thing about your relationship with them

8:18

and how good and effective your interaction and

8:20

lobbying is if you like. But how do

8:23

you deal with and respond to

8:25

Labour policies is a

8:27

different question. Excuse me. And

8:30

that almost nearly brings us on to 28 million which

8:32

we spoke about last week and again quite a lot

8:34

of... Hang on a minute, you're not going to leave

8:36

the sneeze in are you? Surely that's going to be

8:39

slipped and snipped out. I'll be thinking we'll be. Well

8:41

then you know what this is ripen ready. My

8:43

kids have both got colds. It's completely inevitable that

8:46

I'm going to sneeze in the middle of

8:48

recording these things. We're

8:53

agreed. We're agreed. The sneeze stays in.

8:55

It's authenticity. Clip that. Clip that up

8:58

for social. The

9:02

28 billion is quite interesting. We spoke about

9:04

that last week and Labour's

9:06

28 billion pound a

9:08

year investment in the green economy

9:10

which is now 24 billion pounds over five years. Yes.

9:19

But they've sort of divid and dabbled with

9:21

it all week and now they

9:24

sort of, yeah as you say, like basically

9:26

completely dropped it. Extraordinary.

9:28

And I mean there are all

9:30

sorts of ways to dissect this story. The fact that the

9:32

first thing that's worth noting is it was the Sun reported

9:35

about three weeks ago that this was going to happen.

9:38

That Labour was going to abandon this enormous

9:40

financial commitment. And

9:43

the official response to the Sun's story

9:46

from Labour was complete nonsense. And

9:48

indeed plenty of other journalists were then

9:51

a bit sneery and sniffy at this

9:53

Sun's story. Taking Labour at their word when they

9:55

said the story was nonsense. The story was not nonsense.

9:58

And when Within the. Two

10:01

or three days, the Labour party has

10:03

confirmed that. They are going to

10:05

abandon this this, this Titanic commitments and

10:07

it seems to be good. Question Is

10:09

is one of the things that go

10:12

completely over the heads of the general

10:14

public and minute people in general pay

10:16

a lot less attention to the ins

10:18

and outs of politics than than people

10:20

like you and people I meet him

10:22

to assume and thing can occasionally hope

10:25

And and I suppose the question is

10:27

a. They. Partied services pull his

10:29

plaster authors get over with stop having

10:31

to buy this before the election campaign

10:33

really kicks off, before people do not

10:35

paying more and and before the Tory

10:37

party can devise all sorts of attacks

10:39

about how this policy commitment of as

10:41

my end up it manifested itself in

10:43

tax rises or higher borrowing or whatever

10:45

it might be status unless it's debt,

10:47

Get by the this and what that

10:49

means. Apollo that Milliband. Who

10:51

basically the any job in the shadow cabinet

10:53

was to go and talk about his son.

10:55

A billion However, gonna spend it as it's

10:58

definition questions? I'm. Sure

11:00

the Labour party would rather talk about In

11:02

in my view they should have told more

11:04

about why they will get a spend this

11:06

money. What were they spend it on? yeah

11:08

was important to do so rather than just

11:10

the cigarettes and which in in Westminster in

11:13

particular and and people who financial circles became

11:15

obsessed with and they didn't actually talk a

11:17

lot about why they want to do this

11:19

was crazy. Is the Labour now having pitch

11:21

this pledge on the altar of financial credibility

11:23

and you talked about house and ruthless? They

11:26

are in. For net proceeds of

11:28

power, they ditched his displeasure that they can be

11:30

beaten by the head by it and. They.

11:32

basically still said everything they wanted to spend

11:34

it on the still get a day and

11:36

still very important to do it and that

11:38

all these great green policies are still gonna

11:40

happen in the gonna have a carbon neutral

11:43

access to grid by twenty thirty etc and

11:45

anyway there's anything about that said it's for

11:47

the birds and is that would probably cost

11:49

about two hundred billion yeah and that say

11:51

it's they now they saw him to i

11:53

think he's quite clear what they're trying to

11:55

do is they want to stop talking about

11:57

twenty eight billion price tag and they want

11:59

to start talking about the policies and the

12:01

rationale for what they wanted

12:03

to spend the money on in the first place even though they're

12:06

no longer going to spend it. But there's lots

12:09

of different types of credibility and

12:11

I think it's interesting because they've

12:13

said that we're not having it

12:15

because the financial situation has changed

12:17

etc from when we originally announced the

12:19

policy but actually the financial situation is

12:21

better than when the policy was first

12:23

announced nine months ago. There's more fiscal

12:25

headroom and yeah they were getting called

12:27

out by Paul Johnson of the IFS

12:29

on this and you just think

12:31

well actually you know it's all very well

12:34

sort of being completely ruthless for power but

12:37

you have got to have some things you

12:39

have got to get your party

12:43

marshalled and excited about what they're actually doing and

12:45

what they're what they're going to do and at

12:47

the moment it comes back to this point we

12:49

keep saying of no one really

12:51

seems to know what Labour's going to do and

12:53

it's fine to shrink the target and all about

12:55

that we talked about in the first episode but

12:57

actually you have got to go to the country

12:59

with like this is how it's going to be

13:01

different this is how it's going to be better

13:03

it's not just enough to say you know we're

13:05

not these guys like you will have to find

13:07

something to get people excited about and at the

13:09

moment they just don't have that. And

13:12

you can't really overstate the

13:14

extent to which the Labour Party and

13:16

its various kind of affiliate groups and

13:19

different wings have torn themselves

13:21

to pieces internally over this 28 billion because

13:23

for some people like Rachel Reeves and one

13:25

assumes now Keir Starmer it was just a

13:27

question of financial credibility and they don't want

13:29

to be beaten with it in the election

13:31

campaign and they don't want to be accused

13:34

of being reckless with public finances. There

13:36

are a huge number of other

13:38

voices in the Labour Party and the wider Labour

13:40

movement but this wasn't just a question

13:43

of financial credibility

13:45

or even viability it was a major

13:48

almost sort of philosophical commitment

13:52

and a project and

13:54

a sort of a statement of the

13:56

state's capabilities and what a Labour run

13:59

government would do. and believes in. They

14:01

get all very excited about the amount of money

14:03

that Joe Biden has pumped into the US economy

14:05

and lots of people on the left over here

14:07

think that government should be doing

14:09

something similar and the 28 billion per

14:12

year that Labour had said they

14:14

would spend was seen as a part of that on

14:16

the same sort of ideological spectrum

14:18

of that sort of public

14:21

sector investment in the economy, very much

14:23

in the kind of Gordon Brown School

14:25

of thought. And so for

14:27

lost people, this is just a question of let's stop saying 28 billion

14:30

because it might embarrass us. And lots

14:32

of other people in the Labour Party, it wasn't just

14:34

about that. It was about the kind of government we're

14:36

going to be, the kind of country we want to

14:38

have. Personally, I

14:40

think people can overstate the wisdom

14:43

or the benefits of state expenditure is

14:45

sort of trying to pump the real

14:48

economy if you like, but that's a

14:50

philosophical debate for another day. But in

14:52

the Labour Party, it's a huge argument

14:54

that it does not end with racial

14:57

reason saying we're no longer going to commit to

14:59

28 billion because we can't afford it. Yeah, exactly.

15:03

Exactly. And speaking

15:06

of businesses, sort of wider representation in the

15:08

public, as we've touched on a bit there,

15:10

I also wanted to talk a bit about

15:12

Dragon's Den. And I

15:14

thought it was very interesting. We had

15:17

super books on the podcast last week,

15:19

and they were on Dragon's Den as

15:22

well. And for those of you that haven't seen the episode, super

15:25

books went on and said

15:27

to the Dragons, we want 1% for

15:30

one pound. It's the first time anyone's

15:33

ever done that on Dragon's Den. I

15:35

am an investor in super books, one

15:37

of the 29 angels

15:39

that they mentioned. Weirdly, I didn't get a

15:41

name check and they went with Tom Blomfield

15:43

and Princess Beatrice on the show. Probably

15:46

third, I imagine. If I'm

15:48

a shareholder meeting, though. Exactly.

15:52

And it was just

15:54

quite interesting because there's two

15:56

big business shows in

15:58

the UK in terms of popular culture.

16:00

shirts, The Apprentice and Dragon's Den. And

16:03

there were a few remarks online sort

16:05

of saying, well, you know, is

16:07

this really a business show anymore if people

16:09

are just going on there asking for a

16:11

pound, etc. And you know, Dragon's Den's never

16:13

created any unicorns, etc. And I was like,

16:15

I don't think somebody said, you know, somebody

16:19

said Dragon's Den hasn't even made half a

16:21

unicorn. I was like, I actually think they've

16:24

even made 5% of a unicorn, right, a

16:26

50 million valuation. But I

16:28

just think it's really interesting to

16:30

get people's perception

16:33

on how businesses run. And I still think

16:35

it's a great show, Dragon's Den. And actually

16:37

still, it's always been in that kind of

16:40

edutainment space. And

16:43

I think it's great that Superbooks kind of went

16:45

on there. And it does,

16:47

it's probably most people's first introduction to

16:50

business really. I

16:52

know you love Dragon's Den. My

16:54

wife loves Dragon's Den. I

16:56

don't really like it. I find it quite annoying.

16:59

And quite sort of overly

17:02

curated these days, compared

17:04

to what it was back

17:07

in the day, if you like. And

17:09

back in the day, it was I

17:11

feel it was slightly more authentic. I

17:13

feel there were genuine cases of

17:15

people coming in and saying, listen, I want this much

17:17

money so that I can build this and I want

17:19

to sell it for X. And you know, you

17:21

had dragons that would sit there and say, you're out of

17:23

your mind, get out. And you had others who would argue

17:25

about, you know, the stake they wanted,

17:27

but they would put the money in. And

17:30

you get a bit of that in the sort

17:32

of more recent series. But

17:34

it's very different. You know,

17:36

you get a lot more people's

17:38

backstories and waterworks and the

17:41

sob stories and, you know, reality TV,

17:43

it's a much more kind of reality

17:45

TV vibe to it. And

17:47

and they love all that. And, you know, part of that is because

17:50

of the dragons themselves

17:52

have changed. Yeah, that by the way, you

17:54

know, somebody could, I'm sure, you

17:56

know, write an interesting essay on how long is

17:58

Dragon's Den? going on

18:00

for now? 20 years? So

18:03

you could look at the changing nature

18:05

of the dragons and what does it tell us about

18:07

the changing nature of the economy? Because

18:10

you used to have sort of

18:12

retailers and manufacturers and private

18:14

equity dragons and now

18:16

you've got how social media influences

18:18

and ex-footballers cropping up as dragons.

18:20

So it has changed, it's definitely

18:22

changed. But you mentioned that Superbooks

18:24

as a particular example and

18:27

I think it was really interesting. They were honest enough

18:29

to say we don't actually want your money, we

18:31

actually just want

18:33

your basically PR support from you if I read

18:36

it right and your endorsement and your commitment to

18:38

our projects and our values which we feel are

18:40

really important. Now that was very honest and I

18:42

think there are plenty of people

18:45

who go in Dragon's Zone who are not as honest,

18:47

who basically want to be on TV and would love

18:49

it if Stephen Bartlett could Instagram them off the back

18:51

of it. That would do for them, that's the investment

18:53

they want. And so to

18:55

me I find it slightly twee

18:57

on occasion and slightly annoying. I

19:00

think that's all

19:02

fair and I think it is a very

19:04

interesting example of how the kind of economy

19:06

is changing. I also think it's partly the

19:08

way that the investor landscape is changing because

19:11

actually there's been 22 seasons of Dragon's Den

19:13

there so when the first ones come out

19:15

just at the sort of

19:17

start of the millennium the internet

19:19

was only just really getting going. Like actually

19:21

if you wanted business investment and you didn't

19:23

know anyone it really was your kind of

19:25

like perhaps your one shot whereas now you

19:27

can go and sort of Google lots of

19:29

people and actually the story of how Superbook's

19:32

got their initial engine investment is a great

19:34

one. They just sent a cold LinkedIn message

19:36

to our good pal Henry Dzope who then

19:38

sort of took them on this kind of

19:40

journey and obviously Henry, former special

19:42

advisor to Michael Gove but also went on

19:44

to start the company that got a very

19:46

high valuation on Dragon's Den and then exited it

19:48

as well. And so... Yeah

19:51

that was a really good example. It was

19:54

a proper pitch, but a proper business that

19:56

needed some proper money which then went on

19:58

to do very well. and

20:00

Henry's done very well deservedly so. Yeah. And

20:02

I'd just like to see more of that

20:04

on track instead. Yeah,

20:06

and I think that was fun. And what about the argument now that you

20:08

hear about the sort of fakery

20:10

rouse, and it's not as real as

20:13

it seems, and they've got an army

20:15

of producers who go out and try

20:17

and find people and convince them to

20:19

be on the show. Yeah. I'm sure

20:21

there's always going to be a degree

20:23

of that. But it feels

20:25

like there was

20:27

one particular episode recently, wasn't there, that caused

20:29

some controversy of somebody claiming

20:33

medical benefits to an earring

20:36

or something. And all the

20:38

dragons loved it, and they all wanted

20:41

to invest in it. And of course,

20:43

that itself was cut up by the producers and

20:45

put out as a news story and

20:47

as a social media content. And

20:50

it backfired, because then you had people who actually

20:52

know what they're talking about saying, well, that was

20:54

deeply irresponsible. And

20:57

off the back of that, people started to cook

20:59

up stories about how the show isn't as real

21:01

as it seems. So it

21:03

feels like people are starting to pull at

21:05

the threads of it a little bit. I

21:07

think part of the, I don't actually think

21:09

getting Gary Neville on work that well a

21:12

couple of weeks ago, I just sort of

21:14

thought this is getting tweet. And you're

21:16

right, I'm a massive fan of the show, but it

21:18

all sort of became about, yeah, it just sort

21:20

of, it became

21:22

too kind of emotive, I think, and so

21:24

on. And I just think. I

21:26

get that from the repair shop. I

21:29

don't know, and which I do love. I

21:31

really love. I don't need it

21:33

from Dragon's Den. Yeah, exactly. And I think it

21:35

will be interesting to see where it goes in

21:37

terms of the long term, because I can totally

21:39

see how you could do kind of a spin-off

21:42

show now on YouTube, for example, or something like

21:44

that. I think there's quite a lot of kind

21:46

of creativity there, because they have got in quite

21:48

a bit of pot water about that one particular

21:50

company that had to take down the episode, et

21:52

cetera. There are still some great

21:54

episodes out there. And I think I'm going to get this right

21:56

when I say that the early,

21:58

earliest, founder of

22:02

the original incarnation of,

22:04

was it Just Eat? Or what

22:07

I think it was Just Eat. Went

22:09

on an early, early Dragon's Den with

22:12

this idea of a website that sort

22:14

of hosted loads of different fast food

22:16

restaurants and thinks it's going to be

22:18

the future of how people order food.

22:20

And basically one by one every dragon

22:23

just said this is rubbish. That's never

22:25

going to work. I know

22:27

the phone number of the rest of my local Chinese wine

22:29

house, that's what I need to go through your website. This

22:31

is crazy. And they all threw them out of

22:35

the den. And whether the guy in question is

22:37

anything to do with Just Eat as it is

22:39

now, I don't know. But as an original idea,

22:41

it's quite nice to see when the dragons get

22:44

it so wrong. Well there are a few. Of

22:46

course there's tangle trees, wasn't there? And there was

22:48

the wine in a cup

22:50

to be sold in the supermarket as well, which

22:52

was completely derided, which now is a

22:55

staple of every train ride. What

22:57

about the other business show? You

23:00

mentioned The Apprentice. I just know

23:02

you don't feel as warm to

23:05

The Apprentice as you do

23:07

Dragon's Den. No, I don't because I think

23:09

it really is the sort of worst

23:12

example of business and what

23:14

the worst character chore, sort

23:16

of leaning across the table,

23:19

shouting at people that they're fired, I

23:21

just think it's just a terrible depiction

23:24

of it. And when you fire people,

23:26

do you just whisper it? Yeah, exactly.

23:28

Just like it's over. Just try and

23:30

go move it on. But I

23:33

just, I find it quite, it's

23:36

just so aggressive I find. And obviously it's

23:38

kind of made for TV, but I don't

23:40

even think it's that good a TV really,

23:43

to be honest. And I just think it's,

23:46

it shows business in a really poor light. I mean I saw the

23:48

Lego movie the day and the

23:50

bad guy in the Lego movie

23:52

is called Lord Business. And for

23:54

somebody that works between business and

23:57

politics, and he loves Lego, it

23:59

was really good. Lego. I

24:01

just found it really great though.

24:03

It's a fabulous film. We

24:05

will come back to talk about The Apprentice but

24:07

you're right the Lego movie is great but the

24:09

villain in it is Mr. Business. He's got you

24:12

know evil plans and that

24:14

is very often the case and our

24:17

friend Matthew Elliott now Lord Elliott gave

24:20

a really thoughtful speech a

24:22

couple of months ago where he launched

24:24

his new project the Jobs Foundation which

24:27

I would recommend to everybody because apart

24:29

from anything else it wants

24:32

to make a positive case for business

24:34

of all sizes and employment and jobs

24:36

in particular a very very positive case

24:38

for them and so he launched by

24:40

giving a really thoughtful speech that took

24:42

apart precisely the issue you've just raised

24:44

about how is business represented

24:46

in films and in popular

24:49

culture and why is it

24:51

so often why are they portrayed as

24:53

the villains or you know whose motivations

24:55

are always to be questioned and

24:58

and his contribution to society is

25:00

is is not positive

25:03

and there are many cases and in fact I

25:05

think you know huge amount of

25:07

academic research particularly in the US has looked

25:09

at this very question and

25:12

Matthew's speech was was a really

25:14

good you know counter argument to

25:17

that but The Apprentice is

25:19

an example that does play into that narrative

25:22

and because it is because it is just

25:24

ridiculous program for the Love Island rejects you

25:27

know and the

25:29

original premise I thought was quite good people want

25:31

a job it's a well-paid job and when they

25:33

make you jump through all these ridiculous hoops to

25:35

get it appreciate the format's changed now it's more

25:37

about who gets investment for their business and

25:40

my biggest bug there with The Apprentice Is

25:42

the fact that it's not until I Mean as

25:44

far as the viewing public is concerned, and you

25:47

get the impression that it's the case for Alan

25:49

Sugar and others is. Not until he's whittled all

25:51

these half-wits down to two or three that he

25:53

then asks them what their business idea is. Yeah,

25:55

exactly. he's going to invest it, And you know,

25:57

some of them have done quite well. Most of

25:59

them. Absolute. And I

26:01

bought. A rubbish and but it is so

26:04

manufactured in is such nonsense and I'm as

26:06

you can let it go for a job

26:08

interview and get a and and somebody says

26:10

get you caught credible candidate and ah what

26:12

I want you to do Those for me

26:14

is to go away. And I'll

26:16

give you die and a half and I

26:18

want you to and devise and film an

26:20

advert for a new kind of dog food.

26:23

And you want for simultaneity with the job

26:25

on the plan you guys would just do

26:27

it. This and he the accountant advertising i'm

26:30

of the soviet socialist or gun see how

26:32

many chicken sandwiches you can sell a borough

26:34

market wide. I just yeah it drives me

26:36

I'm just excited crackers I just in and

26:38

must be a better way of doing kind

26:40

of the a mainstream so business shape because

26:43

i think some of the is is interesting

26:45

accident that the challenges are of it but

26:47

what really of it is which is quite

26:49

how long he spent in the boardroom. sort

26:51

of like tearing strips off have you on.

26:54

About stuff on I say some

26:56

of the challenges are sort of

26:58

like moderately interesting and quiet and

27:00

innovative way of putting and business

27:02

together. I think the my vote

27:04

goes into branding, etc etc. but

27:06

sam yeah I just feel. Afraid

27:09

to show that could really do with

27:11

being updated. Authentic, good or did. he

27:13

gets a good show and. The

27:16

size. Of millions de la on business

27:18

that's I did it. it means to and

27:20

also anyone thinks about in this way. But

27:22

if you watched inside the factory. Yes,

27:24

Is Greg Wallace. Yeah. I'm

27:27

that is not presented as

27:29

it is making the case

27:31

the business, but whether intends

27:33

to announce it makes the

27:35

case for incredibly efficient manufacturing

27:38

supply chains, innovation keeping costs

27:40

down at yeah, you're logistics,

27:42

you, distribution, whatever, Six

27:44

episode it is and whether the the

27:46

factory in question is making genes or

27:48

your eminence it's an extraordinary so case

27:50

of of very often the most efficient

27:53

kind of pinnacle of and of manufacturing

27:55

which is a huge part of our

27:57

com and say I think a shows

27:59

like that can be really interesting and

28:01

and a day think it would have

28:03

Roka to greg also any of the

28:05

producers to to talk about the sort

28:07

of a hidden hand and this sort

28:10

of in a great economic forces that

28:12

have and enabled these fatties to do

28:14

what they david's that because I'm a

28:16

bit weird that's what I think when

28:18

I want said that. the ethics as

28:20

it's like you are my mind goes

28:22

a step is of was quite a

28:25

challenge. Sounds Virus is well a three

28:27

part series into Grants and I just

28:29

found it. Fascinating allow that has

28:31

become your have a basis scaled the

28:33

business yeah I was getting having to

28:35

sit with interesting scale of anatomy you

28:37

might say is always around Christmas time

28:40

I'll in a they'll be an I

28:42

T V Cela inside Tesco Zola in

28:44

Dad Little or something and shows you

28:46

again these are readily well run businesses

28:48

many phenomenally well run businesses and I

28:50

I cause of work for old A

28:52

with task as leadership for the couple

28:54

of years in In in my most

28:57

recent job and then on I got

28:59

to know them. Very well and march

29:01

they had high the house extraordinary but

29:03

at the things out for me. Was

29:06

that the others get it to

29:08

these active can mercy of Tesco

29:10

explaining this and the busiest days

29:12

of any retailer and he returned

29:14

as year is always twenty third

29:16

of December and they know that

29:18

and food We Teddy's I'm talking

29:21

about. And they know that

29:23

obviously and then start planning threat in

29:25

August Am and in the earliest days

29:27

of the pandemic. Tesco,

29:31

Not to Tesco pretty much every

29:33

as food we eat. I didn't

29:35

concede. Tesco had about seven consecutive

29:37

twenty third of December's and with

29:39

which they were not prepared. I

29:41

didn't run out of anything. And.

29:44

the logistics pat around the sort of

29:46

state delivery instructs you in this country

29:48

is absolutely monday and that is a

29:50

topic for another day we have we

29:52

should look into that we should actually

29:54

do enough said around to looking at

29:56

pick a particular business and really examine

29:58

it and stuff of looking at under

30:00

the bonnet. I mean how many people

30:02

know that Tesco basically has its own

30:04

railway lines and its own trains that

30:06

is responsible for an enormous amount of

30:08

the delivery of food around

30:10

this country. But you don't see them because

30:12

they don't pull up at passenger stations. Okay,

30:14

I can talk a lot about Tesco. We'll

30:16

do it another day. We can. But about

30:18

how to make sure you're getting someone from

30:20

head of logistics on Jimmy's jobs or something.

30:22

I mean we had the founders of the

30:24

club card, Ed Reena and

30:27

Clyde come on Jimmy's jobs last year and it was

30:29

fascinating listening to how they basically implemented data and

30:31

that's what made Tesco get so

30:33

far ahead of the curve so quickly in

30:35

that sort of dramatic scaling phase of the

30:37

90s and 90s. Amazing episode. Well that probably

30:40

calls to an end this week. Interesting

30:43

couple of things coming up. We've got

30:45

a live show of Jimmy's jobs for Harry Cole and James

30:47

Heale. Tickets have sold out so

30:49

I'm not giving it any promo on that sense. And

30:52

PM's business council is

30:55

meeting on Valentine's Day. What

30:57

headline would you have written for that? Well

31:00

I mean they look forward to it. Headline

31:02

rights is always like things happening around Valentine's

31:04

Day or Halloween. And is there going

31:07

to be an election around Halloween? That

31:10

writes itself. And as to Valentine's

31:12

Day, what you'd like is

31:15

for the business leaders in question to emerge

31:17

from the meeting and brief the media that

31:19

it was a complete waste of everyone's time

31:21

and then you can write about Valentine's Day

31:24

massacre etc. So okay we'll try and get

31:26

some eyes and ears inside that meeting. That's

31:28

the challenge we set ourselves. And when we

31:31

fail we'll just read Mark Kleinman. Exactly. Mark

31:33

will be in there. One

31:35

of my tests in number

31:37

10 was like is this going

31:39

to get to Kleinman now quickly

31:42

if we were working through

31:44

something. But yeah a heck of a journalist.

31:46

Thanks for listening. See

31:48

you next week. We'll see you in the future. Do you

31:50

want to say it normally? you