0:01

Jobsworth People People . Welcome

0:08

to Jobsworth People People a series

0:10

of conversations with a specialist charged

0:12

with building great company cultures . This

0:15

week , I speak with Carly Ash , a

0:17

people leader with over 12 years of experience

0:20

working with start-up businesses and established

0:22

organizations alike . I get Carly's

0:24

view on the evolution of the role of people operations

0:26

, ask why she's so passionate about helping

0:29

businesses build diverse and inclusive cultures

0:31

, and explore why the role she plays

0:33

in an organization is more important than

0:35

ever but so often undervalued

0:37

. We also discussed what it was like to

0:39

land a role at a tech startup in an

0:41

emerging industry during the first lockdown

0:43

whilst juggling motherhood and not not long after

0:46

a breast cancer diagnosis that would

0:48

change her life forever . Whether

0:50

you're a people person yourself , a business

0:52

leader looking for some expert insight or

0:54

anyone interested in hearing more about one of

0:56

the most resilient people I've ever spoken to , this

0:59

is well worth a listen . So

1:06

the opening question is when you were

1:08

, what did you want to be when you ?

1:09

grew up . Oh , okay , yeah . So

1:11

when I was younger , I wanted to be a

1:13

mermaid .

1:15

Okay , I can't not laugh at these

1:17

when they come out of people . I'm just like , okay , mermaid's

1:20

one of the strangest ones . Go on , give

1:22

me some context .

1:23

So I loved the little mermaid when

1:26

.

1:26

I was younger the Disney connection yeah , the

1:29

OG Disney princesses still

1:31

to this , to this day . Little mermaid is

1:33

up there , you reckon . Do you know

1:35

what ?

1:36

Moana , moana's up there .

1:38

I think if I was a little girl now , I'd want

1:40

to grow up and be Moana okay yeah

1:43

, have the .

1:43

I'd want to grow up and be Moana . Okay , yeah , have the Rock as my

1:45

husband .

1:46

Why not , of course , yeah , I understand .

1:47

But yeah , so I just

1:49

love the Little Mermaid and I remember I used

1:52

to . Obviously we live by the sea , yeah , so

1:54

lots of beach days and things like that when I was younger

1:56

and I remember , like I have this vision

1:58

, looking out to sea and

2:00

just thinking I want to be where the people

2:02

are , like I literally just want to

2:04

be out there and just

2:07

looking to see if there would be any mermaids

2:09

like I really wanted to be a mermaid . Then I found

2:11

out . You know , my dad completely crushed my

2:13

dreams . They're not real , um so I was

2:15

like okay so then I

2:17

wanted to be a paper girl , because

2:20

I see the paper girl going around my clothes

2:22

. And

2:24

then my dad sat me

2:26

down and started to talk about careers

2:28

.

2:28

Okay .

2:29

So my dad was a

2:32

self-employed . He was in the print business

2:34

. Yep . And my

2:36

dad really worked his way up

2:38

. So he left school , he

2:42

went into print in an apprentice

2:44

sort of scheme . Back in the day I

2:46

think he was paid like two pounds

2:49

a week or something crazy like that yeah . But

2:52

yeah , it's where he learned his trade and

2:55

he worked his way up from there

2:57

, so my parents are from the Midlands

2:59

. My dad trained

3:01

there when he left school and then got

3:03

an opportunity and went down to east london okay

3:06

, yeah um and um

3:08

and , yeah , sort of started his print

3:11

career from there and he eventually , um

3:13

, from an age that I can really truly

3:16

remember , set up his own business , used to print

3:18

for , like , the daily mail and everything had these massive

3:20

colossal print machines

3:22

in factories went into business with these three

3:24

other guys and um

3:27

, and yeah , he was kind of killing it . So

3:29

he used to talk to me a lot about

3:31

business . Yeah , um , we'd

3:33

be driving um on the

3:35

motorway , perhaps going back to see family in

3:37

the midlands , and he'd say see that lorry , see

3:40

the wheels on that lorry . A company has made

3:42

those wheels for that lorry . Used to kind of like break

3:44

everything down as to how a

3:47

business would work all the component

3:49

parts , yeah together , um

3:51

. So that's when I kind of fell in love

3:53

with business , um

3:55

, and what my dad was doing . So I used

3:57

to go into the office with him and things like that and and

4:00

from then I knew I wanted

4:02

to work in an office so so

4:04

you come from mermaid aspirations of

4:06

being a mermaid realised that just wasn't

4:08

a route .

4:09

That's not a route you can go there ?

4:10

No , it's not .

4:11

Yeah , unfortunately , Paper girl seems

4:13

to be a short-lived thing . It was a short-lived

4:15

thing , yeah , but you're going by the examples that you see

4:17

, which is round your coast ?

4:18

Someone's living in papers and they were getting money for yeah

4:20

, exactly .

4:21

And she looked happy , she was outside every

4:23

day yeah , exactly and

4:26

then , I think , going to what I would classify as

4:28

quite a grounded yeah probably

4:30

a bit more of a realistic , yeah

4:32

um viewpoint that

4:34

was instilled by your dad . How do you remember

4:36

how old you were around around the point

4:38

he was having those conversations and you started to connect

4:41

the dots of okay . Yeah

4:43

, I can see see how this is all made

4:45

up .

4:45

Probably when I was about nine or 10 .

4:47

Okay .

4:48

I also loved acting

4:50

at school . I was in quite a lot of drama

4:53

and things like that . I

4:55

would have pursued that as a career . Wow

4:57

. But it's just tough

4:59

doing something like that . Yeah . So

5:02

my parents would sort of say

5:04

you know , we know you love this , but perhaps it

5:06

could be more of a hobby and you would need to

5:08

kind of basically get a real job yeah , and

5:10

go down that kind of route

5:12

. So that's when I used to go

5:14

into work with my dad and because I never really

5:16

knew what I wanted to do . You

5:18

know , I went to school with people

5:21

who wanted to be a vet from

5:23

a really young age . They loved animals and they're vets

5:25

now , like really they pursued

5:27

it like , but I never really had

5:29

that . I think the only thing I did

5:31

love was acting , but you know that

5:33

is a tough career to kind of so let

5:35

me ask you had your parents and

5:37

I get it .

5:38

I get you know the majority of parents

5:40

, I think , if they're a 9 , 10

5:42

, 11 , 12 year old daughter is going . I want to be

5:44

an actor you're probably just going to , you know

5:46

, I guess just err

5:49

on the side of caution slightly and be like , okay

5:51

, well , let's just set some realistic expectations . You'll

5:53

get others that will go . Yeah , fuck it , let's

5:55

go for it .

5:56

We're going to push in that direction .

5:57

Did you have anyone ? Were your teachers

5:59

at all trying to drive you to

6:01

do that ? Because that can be quite a conflicting thing

6:04

, can't it ? Sometimes , if someone is saying to you , carly

6:06

, yeah , why not pursue it ?

6:07

yeah they were . They would have

6:09

conversations like Carly's really talented

6:11

um . I was also

6:14

since a really young age in sort of in

6:16

performing arts , so I was doing all the dance , jazz

6:18

, ballet , tap my mum would

6:21

take me . I'd be in like little modeling shows in

6:23

London and things like that . So

6:25

from a really young age I

6:27

was kind of a little bit in

6:29

that world . My mum

6:31

was a dancer . Oh , wow . So

6:34

she I think part of

6:36

her wanted me to do that as well

6:38

. But you know my dad , who

6:40

was a lot more kind of , perhaps

6:43

pragmatic , and yeah yeah

6:45

, just was like look , this is , this is tough

6:47

if this is something that she wants to pursue . So

6:49

, um , so , yeah , so

6:51

.

6:51

I get it . I get it because I , obviously we're

6:54

both parents and if my , if

6:56

my I , I am confident my son

6:58

, my oldest , finlay , will come to me one day and go

7:00

. I want to be an actor and in a way . I

7:02

feel like he bloody should , because this kid is

7:04

so confident and he , he can sing

7:07

, he can memorize lyrics , he can do all these things

7:09

. But there's still a part of me that goes . I

7:11

know I don't know anyone that that became

7:13

an actor but , I , know it's brutal and I

7:15

know , your chances of success are incredibly slim

7:18

, so I think I can completely empathize

7:20

with your dad's perspective or your parents in general

7:22

, which is you could do that

7:24

, but you've got a very much more stable chance

7:26

of success . Let's say , if you go

7:28

down what I classify as a more traditional

7:30

yeah , I think as well .

7:32

It was a lot kind of tougher in those . I think it

7:34

was tougher in those days maybe to

7:36

get something , whereas now it seems like there

7:39

there's open kind of competitions . You have

7:41

like x factor and things like that that you could go and

7:43

audition for and that kind

7:46

of thing that's made real kind of stars

7:48

slightly , doesn't it ?

7:49

when we say we're talking about this pre-x factor

7:51

or pop idol or anything like that

7:53

.

7:53

That's very terrifying but even like tick

7:55

, the world of tiktok and things like that . Now you've people

7:58

, have got a platform they can put themselves

8:00

onto and get a following yeah

8:02

and become superstars in that way

8:04

and build their career in that world , should

8:06

they want to pursue it yeah , I think it's easier

8:09

for people now I'm not saying it's

8:11

easy to be an influencer , I know obviously

8:13

I'm sure we'll talk about that like yeah , my

8:15

background there . But , um

8:17

, but I I feel like

8:19

I feel like you'd probably

8:22

be a bit more open-minded to it should finley come

8:24

to you and say you , you'd be like , okay , well , you could

8:26

probably go down this route and build a following and go

8:28

from there . Yeah , you could

8:30

kind of be found better , Whereas

8:32

back then I feel like it might have been harder . I don't

8:34

know .

8:35

I get that because I think we're talking late 90s

8:37

, something like that , aren't we Around that kind of time

8:39

into early 2000s and

8:45

there just wasn't the infrastructure there to to launch people into those things . I mean , the

8:47

reason I always start with asking what people wanted to be when they , when they were

8:49

older , is just to see if there's

8:51

a connection between what you , what you then

8:54

went on to do . Um , I'm

8:56

trying to think , probably a tenuous one , if I tried to connect

8:58

mermaid and then , and then what you

9:00

do now is , uh , a head of people , vp of

9:02

people , which we'll talk more about your skill

9:04

set now . But yeah , I

9:07

like to get an idea of of what kind

9:09

of launched you into the career path you actually went

9:11

on , and I think your dad instilling that . Okay

9:13

, yeah , that love of business for you

9:15

was pretty important and pretty fundamental for

9:17

the sound of it .

9:18

Yeah , and I was . I was there . I was kind

9:20

of seeing sort

9:22

of every detail of of how

9:25

a business works and how it's kind of designed

9:27

and put together . My dad is

9:29

an absolute hustler right

9:31

, and so am . I yeah , I've got that from

9:33

my dad um , so

9:36

yeah , he's kind of really instilled that

9:38

in me . So when I was at school

9:40

I left school , I went to college and

9:43

again didn't know what I wanted to do

9:45

, so I did a diploma in sort of like

9:47

, being like a secretarial studies . It was

9:49

like a paa kind of diploma yeah

9:51

um , I dropped out , it wasn't

9:53

for me where did you go ? Um

9:56

, so I didn't go to another

9:58

college I got a job right um

10:00

at a stonemasonry right

10:02

um , in the office as an office junior

10:04

and I was like you know what ? I'm just going to do , what my dad

10:06

did , I'm just going to work my way up . I'm

10:08

just going to learn everything about this business

10:11

until I sort of get into

10:14

a kind of top position yeah so I was

10:16

there for five years and I left as their like

10:18

office manager , which was kind of the highest you could

10:20

be that was the ceiling you were gonna . Yeah

10:23

, that was the ceiling I was going to reach , but I

10:25

absolutely loved

10:27

it . I learned so much again about

10:29

business in that company

10:31

. Again there was a factory so I was always up

10:33

in the factory . I'd kind of felt like I'd

10:36

gained a lot of experience

10:38

around how factories work and even just like

10:40

the factory culture from

10:42

it's a different audience , isn't it ?

10:44

it's a different group of people and a

10:46

demographic that you're , that you're working

10:48

with and dealing with yeah , exactly , um

10:51

, and I absolutely loved it .

10:52

I thrive in that kind of environment as well

10:54

. It's kind of quite relaxed . I feel like you can really

10:56

be yourself , have a bit of a laugh , um

10:59

and um , yeah , get on with

11:01

the day job as such . So , yeah , I absolutely

11:03

adored it and I feel like I

11:06

learned . My md gave me so much opportunity

11:08

as well , sort of client and client facing roles

11:10

as well they're going out sort of selling

11:12

as well , um , learning

11:15

sort of all the operations , customer sort

11:17

of success , you know , even going

11:19

into a factory and working on they

11:21

were sort of a stonemasonry , working on worktops , working

11:24

on worktops and things like that .

11:25

So it was just great it was just

11:28

brilliant , like , yeah , I had a few

11:30

different hats , but I absolutely loved it

11:32

okay , what

11:34

a big part of a lot of the conversations I

11:36

have are all also focused on career

11:39

guidance that you received in a young age whether

11:41

that's inspiration , which it sounds like your dad

11:43

to you was a huge inspiration in life from

11:45

a work perspective , or what

11:47

I call like your formal guidance that I

11:49

remember not

11:51

being particularly positive , but at college , so

11:53

okay . Well , what do you want to do when you grow up

11:55

? Here are the routes that are open to you . Do

11:58

you remember any of the conversations that you're having

12:00

around that time ? Did you have any formal

12:02

career guidance through secondary

12:04

school or college ? You're

12:07

pulling a face that most people but Paul and

12:09

I know this is . I know everyone's listening to this

12:11

, but but it is literally everyone's thinking no

12:14

, I can't remember which says to me it

12:17

was just completely uninspiring . That's

12:20

it . I mean there's , there's nothing . I can't

12:22

. I can't remember much , but I can remember

12:24

you were , as a guy at 16

12:26

, 17 , you were kind of categorized

12:29

into are you going to go into the corporate route

12:31

, corporate world , go up to london finance

12:33

banking , or are you going to go and learn a trade

12:35

? And they were really the two main channels

12:38

that you have to focus on yeah so

12:40

yeah , that's why I asked , but you have

12:42

pulled exactly the same place that most people have

12:44

.

12:44

No , I can't help you there . Sorry , there's no . Like

12:46

there was no inspirational conversation

12:49

, isn't it a shame ?

12:50

though . Do you think that's a shame ? I mean , you've gone on to

12:52

have a really successful career and it doesn't sound

12:54

at all like you regret the route that you went

12:56

down . But

12:59

again I think about what I want my

13:01

there to be more of that inspiring

13:04

external viewpoint , coming into

13:06

education to say do you know what ? This

13:09

is the weird and wonderful world of jobs

13:11

that are available to you .

13:12

Yeah , I think . But I think I had that demonstrated

13:15

to me through from such

13:17

a young age with my dad . Yeah . Just

13:20

literally I don't know how to say it

13:22

Like just in what , everything that he was doing

13:24

, it was literally displayed to me

13:26

. Throughout my life there was no inspirational

13:29

conversation . Like I say , I remember the conversations

13:31

I used to have about how a lorry

13:33

was built and things like that . And

13:36

you know , I would always hear him like

13:38

I didn't really see him during the week as well because

13:41

he was always in London working

13:43

till late . So I'd see him on the weekends and

13:46

he'd be talking about work and things like that and

13:48

I'd be listening to it and it's obviously instilled

13:50

something in me , it's obviously inspired me in

13:52

some way , and it inspired me because

13:55

my dad , like he , would always show me

13:57

photos and things like that . But my dad worked really

13:59

hard to get to where he was and

14:01

to go out on his own and he's

14:04

had a lot . He did have a lot of challenges along the

14:06

way and I saw those yeah firsthand

14:08

, and I think it's the experiences that

14:11

my dad went through that have really shaped

14:13

me and and kind of it's , turned

14:15

me into the person that I am yeah .

14:17

I'm just a hustler like my dad yeah

14:19

, what do you think about that term hustler ? Because

14:22

you mentioned it describing your dad and you said you're

14:24

one too , and it's interesting

14:26

that you said that you didn't see your dad during the week as well , when

14:28

you saw him at the weekend . Because , yeah , hustler means

14:31

that you are committed to your job

14:33

and not saying that you're not committed to your family

14:35

, but the stereotypical

14:37

image is you work from really early

14:40

in the morning until late at night with the goal of

14:42

really starting to build something or making money

14:44

. So

14:47

what do you think of that term ? Because it's got a bit of a negative stigma

14:49

now , because you've seen , you know you're on linkedin , maybe not as much as

14:51

me , but you're on linkedin and you know

14:53

the hustle culture , I think has now got a negative

14:55

stigma against it yeah do

14:57

you agree with that and what's the challenge

15:00

? Because I feel like you might have one yeah

15:02

, it's a funny one .

15:03

I'm quite torn , so I would say

15:05

, in the position and the role that I

15:07

play in organizations . Now it's not

15:09

something that I would like advocate

15:11

a difficult point to

15:13

take , isn't it ? Yeah , but I'm the classic

15:15

person who um will

15:18

give out that advice but not listen to it myself

15:21

okay , it's just who I am and

15:23

it's , but I wouldn't do it if I didn't

15:25

love it . If and I

15:28

think I think that's the same

15:30

for anyone you just wouldn't do

15:32

something if you didn't love it and you wouldn't give it all

15:34

the blood , sweat and tears if you didn't enjoy what

15:36

you were doing . Um , you

15:38

don't have to do it . You don't have to be that hustler

15:41

. I could log in at nine and finish at five

15:43

, do my day's work and

15:45

that's it . But to me

15:47

I'm not adding enough

15:49

value in that way , and

15:51

it's not because of the hours that I'm doing or showing

15:53

that I'm online until late . You know I

15:55

have a family , so actually I

15:58

might be out for an hour or two during the

16:00

day because I'm at school drop-offs or an

16:02

after-school club or just being a general

16:04

taxi driver for my son

16:06

, yeah , um , but then I'll be back on

16:08

later on after having dinner with my family

16:10

to finish off kind of the day's work

16:13

and anything else that I wanted to do in my

16:15

day that was purposeful towards my work , so

16:17

, um . So actually

16:19

I but I equally don't stand

16:21

there and preach to my people in my organization

16:24

and say , you know , only do , only do your hours , et

16:26

cetera , et cetera . I just say , do

16:28

what's right for you . If you want to stay on until

16:30

late , that's fine , but if I see that you're

16:32

burning out and you're struggling and you're not performing

16:34

, we need to have a conversation Like you need

16:36

to rein in .

16:38

So that's where the coach in me comes

16:40

out , and that's brilliant , because if

16:42

you if you , I don't know throw yourself

16:44

into this um dictionary definition

16:46

of what you know a hustler would be in a work

16:49

context , yeah

16:51

, you're going to burn out , aren't ? you but it's nice to know

16:53

that there are people like you in organizations

16:55

that have an eye or have processes or

16:57

just have a way of monitoring how

17:00

people are being impacted by that , because you want people

17:02

that are driven , you want people that are passionate

17:04

, but you also want them to be able to identify

17:06

when they have to look after themselves

17:09

exactly maybe draw back slightly

17:11

yeah okay , interesting

17:13

. Yeah , I've , because you use that term

17:15

, hustler and I can see that you're not using in

17:17

a negative way . I I'm

17:19

on board with what you're saying , like if I , if I

17:21

really practice what I preach to organizations

17:24

all the time , the business wouldn't be where it is

17:26

now . I wouldn't be nearly five years down the line

17:28

and still making money doing this work-life

17:31

balance is difficult . Yeah

17:33

, it's a real challenge , but I'm fortunate

17:35

and it sounds like you are to really enjoy what I

17:37

do so yeah okay

17:39

, tell me then . So stonemasons

17:42

yeah five , six years with

17:44

them . Just bring me up to the point

17:47

. Yeah , let's have kind of a run

17:49

through of where you went after that . So how

17:51

old were you when you left the stone masons and why

17:53

? Why did you leave ? Oh gosh , how

17:55

old was I maybe early 20s

17:57

, early 20s , so do you remember

17:59

why you left ?

18:01

yeah , I went to australia , went

18:03

to Australia , um , with some

18:05

friends and , um , yeah

18:08

, just wanted to do that for a bit

18:10

. Um , I think I felt a little

18:12

bit different as well , because everyone was going

18:15

to college five years prior

18:17

, then going on to university , felt

18:19

like I was missing out a little bit on what everyone

18:21

else was doing in that sense yeah . I was

18:23

one of the few that just went

18:26

out to work and was like I just want to start earning money

18:28

, yeah , um , and then everyone was

18:30

kind of doing their traveling bit and I was like

18:32

, well , I can do that too , so I'm

18:35

, and I'm going to . So I did that

18:37

for a bit um , how long was a bit a

18:39

bit was about six months um

18:41

planned to go for a year came

18:43

back . Came back because I just wanted to get

18:45

on and work like and just build a life for

18:47

myself yeah , that intrinsic drive , and you just

18:49

started to yeah up again and yeah

18:52

I remember and it just wasn't for me the whole backpacking

18:54

, staying in hostels . I remember getting in a taxi

18:57

in um brisbane and he was

18:59

like you're the cleanest looking backpacker I've ever

19:01

seen . I was just like I just don't think this is for me , like

19:03

this is just not for me . Yeah , um

19:06

, so , so , yeah . So came back

19:08

and started working down the road

19:10

all right , okay , yeah .

19:11

So just just before we started recording , carly

19:13

was talking about where my office is , a

19:16

few buildings down Carly used to work .

19:17

I'm talking to the listener , but yeah , so , so just

19:19

to give you some context , yeah , okay , yeah so

19:22

, um , and there I was , in a , so I left

19:24

obviously the stone masonry as an office

19:26

manager , so I got an office manager role yeah

19:28

there in it was a construction company

19:30

was doing that for a bit um

19:33

, and within

19:35

that you're sort of doing a lot of hate

19:37

. There's HR aspects to your role

19:39

, there's onboarding , um

19:42

bit of L&D of lnd

19:44

um and working

19:46

really closely with the md um

19:48

. So I feel like you're

19:51

that relationship builder , you're

19:53

especially with these clients and you're

19:55

that his coach as well um

19:58

, and then from there I

20:00

went into . I went to

20:02

London right to a facilities management

20:05

company in an EA

20:07

office managerial role that had

20:09

a bit of HR admin thrown in and

20:12

I was there for about three , four years and that's

20:14

when the HR aspect

20:17

started to kind of come into my

20:19

day to day . So I was onboarding

20:22

staff , I was there was

20:24

some L&D involved in that

20:26

I was in a lot of exec meetings

20:29

, sort of minotine and things like that

20:31

, putting agendas together , but I would always

20:33

have my MDs

20:35

direct reports coming

20:37

to me for coaching

20:39

and

20:42

that's when it kind of that's

20:44

my . I started to realize what my passions were

20:46

. Okay , I was figuring it out

20:49

yeah um , and

20:51

then I had my md

20:53

actually left and took me with

20:55

him right to another organization

20:58

where we sort of set up um

21:00

a commercial department in the organization

21:02

and I

21:04

was in the office with all of the HR

21:06

, with the HR director , people

21:09

like HR at the time it's HR coordinator

21:11

, and I was just learning so

21:13

much about the craft there , loved

21:16

it and then took a people

21:18

ops generalist role

21:21

at a tech company about

21:23

a year later and that is where

21:25

I really went . I

21:28

really went into um the world

21:30

of of HR . I was working

21:32

at the time with a . She was a consultant

21:35

, she was a sort of director level um

21:38

and she was just , she

21:40

was my coach , she was my mentor

21:42

and she was just like you

21:45

are brilliant at this . Like it's so natural

21:47

to you and I had so many ideas

21:49

, and it was when kind of I

21:51

feel like it was when people ops was

21:53

coming into the word . People ops was

21:56

coming into everything .

21:57

Yeah , because it's been a relatively new evolution

22:00

hasn't it . I think that terminology to describe

22:02

what people do . And I think it's moved on

22:04

Beyond that ? Yeah , it has you

22:06

know , definitely post-pandemic , I think

22:08

.

22:09

Absolutely . It's really evolved further which ?

22:10

we'll go on to talk about a bit more .

22:12

Yeah .

22:12

So it sounds like I

22:15

just want to go back to as well , because I think a lot of people that

22:17

listen to this may be in a position where they're thinking

22:19

they get to a point in one organisation , having

22:22

worked there for a few years , and they're wondering

22:24

what you

22:27

know , what's the push ? So , if we go back

22:29

to the role that you took on down the road uh

22:31

, office manager there , talk

22:34

, take me through the the the kind of impetus

22:37

behind why you left there again was the driver

22:39

. You knew you wanted to move on . You knew

22:41

you wanted to do I'm going to say

22:43

bigger , better things in the most respectful way yeah

22:45

you had a goal . It was definitely

22:48

that .

22:48

Okay , it was definitely that I knew I had to

22:50

go to london I had to

22:52

go to the big bright lights of london

22:54

city um and see

22:57

, see if someone would give me an opportunity

22:59

and they did um and

23:02

and it went from there yeah , okay

23:04

um , so , so yeah

23:06

, I'm really grateful for that because I think a lot of people can

23:08

get stuck and get very comfortable and it's really

23:11

easy , especially in the type of work maybe

23:13

you were doing beforehand .

23:14

I think tenure for office

23:16

managers or people in that capacity can be incredibly

23:19

long yeah because you've got the

23:21

right level of responsibility , you've got the right level

23:23

of flexibility and there's a degree of comfort the longer

23:25

you stay in a business . Yeah , I mean hopefully

23:28

yeah um , you find your feet and you

23:30

know how things work . So to just

23:32

kind of unleash yourself from that comfort

23:34

zone and go yeah shit , I'm throwing myself in , not

23:37

the deep end , but you know I mean like to a much

23:39

bigger pond by going to London yeah

23:41

.

23:41

I think you've got to be incredibly brave to do that yeah

23:43

, and I think , kind of going back to your initial

23:46

question , like with all seriousness

23:48

, when you sort of said what

23:50

did you want to be when you were growing up ? I didn't know

23:52

and I still didn't know when I was working down the road

23:54

I was figuring it out , but

23:56

I knew . I knew

23:59

I could build good relationships . Um

24:02

, I knew I could . I could

24:04

do a lot of admin , I could do anything that

24:06

was kind of getting thrown my way and

24:08

I just built on that over , kind of maybe

24:11

I don't know five , six , seven years

24:13

Until . Yeah , someone

24:16

gave me that opportunity in London and

24:18

I knew there was so much more that I could do

24:20

, but what it was I just wasn't sure .

24:22

Yeah , and I guess , with this

24:24

evolution of the people ops thing

24:26

, it's like how do you consolidate

24:28

all those skills into one job ?

24:29

yeah , or one role , because you're cherry picking things

24:32

.

24:32

Probably you've seen by these really inspiring

24:34

people , colleagues around you

24:36

, and thinking if there's one job that I could

24:38

put a title on , yeah , and then

24:41

embody that yeah really handy yeah

24:43

so it seems like that evolution started to happen around

24:45

the right time . Yeah , it really did , and

24:47

it just made so much sense .

24:49

It was there's essentially like so many hats

24:51

yeah that you have to wear um

24:54

and there's . So , yeah , there's

24:56

just so much to it . I was just like this

24:58

makes perfect sense , like how

25:00

the evolution of people ops was happening

25:02

, the evolution of me yeah , it was happening kind

25:04

of kind of alongside . There was

25:06

a true synergy there um

25:09

and I was just like I found my place

25:11

brilliant .

25:12

So yeah , so when you were younger

25:14

, you didn't know what you want to be . When you grew up , do you know

25:16

? Do you know now ? Yeah , I do know

25:18

now yeah what an amazing thing , but

25:20

only only recently , yeah , only

25:23

like only recently , and you know I've

25:25

gone through a lot personally over the last few

25:27

years and that makes you really reflect

25:29

on your purpose .

25:31

But I'm now allowed myself . You know , I left

25:33

my company sort of towards the end

25:35

of last year and I

25:38

wanted that time

25:40

to think about what my , what

25:42

my purpose was . Um , and it's

25:44

definitely given me , given me that .

25:46

So good , we're

25:49

gonna go . I think we'll jump forward slightly

25:51

. So you said you , you joined one tech firm and

25:54

that's where you started to take on your kind of date . You

25:56

know your real day-to-day hr responsibility

25:58

. Moving forward with that , that isn't influencer

26:00

, is it ?

26:01

that's the one before . Influencer .

26:02

Yeah right , that's right okay , so I

26:04

think we'll move to influencer yeah

26:07

, that's okay yeah , and so you

26:09

found a role . The one previous , who

26:11

? Who is that with the previous ?

26:13

um , so that was my drive . They were called my drive solutions

26:15

, okay , so you were there for about six years . Yeah

26:17

okay .

26:18

So then what ? What's the driver to go ? To

26:20

leave my drive and go to influencer ?

26:22

well , um so my drive

26:24

were actually acquired by a huge italian

26:27

insurance company and they sort

26:29

of they saw us as an asset and they merged

26:31

everything that we did in-house

26:34

right um . So we

26:36

all were made redundant and I had to close

26:38

the company down right , so that's

26:40

why I left . Probably would I

26:42

probably . Well , I don't want to say because you don't

26:44

know you know , I genuinely

26:46

. I'm one of these people that genuinely believes everything happens

26:49

. For a reason you know , I stayed

26:51

on . We I had one of these

26:53

people that genuinely believes everything happens . For

26:55

a reason you know , I stayed on . I had

26:57

to make 60 people immediately redundant , let go , lost their jobs . And

27:02

then there was about 50 of us that stayed to kind of like , just get everything wrapped

27:04

up . And so I stayed and I had a few months

27:06

to find something and

27:12

, yeah , I went into Influencer . It was the first one , and I had a few months to find something . Um

27:14

, and yeah , I went into influence . So it was the first one and I I got it . Um , and I genuinely believe

27:16

you know what happened there , led me to to that and then led me to

27:19

what kind of has happened over the last few

27:21

years with them . So which has been pretty

27:24

career changing defining

27:26

yeah , exactly , so

27:28

so tell me that , then MyDrive

27:30

.

27:30

you've been part of that business for six years and then

27:33

very quickly they're

27:35

acquired , which is

27:37

great news for the people that you know at

27:39

the very top of a company like that that are

27:41

going through the acquisition and they're probably aware

27:44

of that , maybe a little bit before you are .

27:46

Yeah , so we were actually acquired

27:48

five years prior . Oh

27:52

, okay , so Generali had acquired us . We've gone through all of that transition , went through

27:54

that journey , and then sort of five

27:56

years later , they , they , oh

27:58

wow , so it was a long . It was a long process

28:00

to then wrap that business up .

28:02

Yeah , wow , what was it like having

28:05

that having to make , or having to be

28:08

the mouthpiece for that company making

28:10

60 redundancies . Yeah , that was tough

28:12

, yeah , had you ever had to do anything

28:14

like that before .

28:15

No , no , a lot

28:17

happened in leadership as well , which I wouldn't want

28:19

to say on the podcast , but

28:23

my CTO was placed

28:25

as our interim CEO . Wow . I

28:28

knew something was up and I

28:30

went into work that day and

28:32

I could just tell by his body language

28:34

he wasn't good . So , and

28:37

usually with that , with my execs as well

28:39

, I will literally just go come on , let's just

28:41

go and get a coffee is that the coaching

28:43

?

28:44

the coaching mindset that comes in sometimes , of

28:46

being an empath .

28:47

I am an empath , I can just sense

28:49

it um , and

28:52

so yeah , and he just

28:54

immediately was just like this

28:56

is what's happening , and it's happening today

28:59

, and like

29:01

I want to tell you because we need

29:03

to get into action , there's a lot of

29:05

people are going to be well , everyone's losing their jobs . Um

29:08

, and I took

29:10

about two seconds to let

29:12

that hit and go . Okay

29:14

, that , that does include me . I've lost my job

29:17

as well . But okay , let's just , let's

29:19

just sort this out .

29:20

I'll be all right , and , and that

29:22

was that was that pragmatism , proactivity

29:26

that your dad has driven yeah , I think it

29:28

was maybe kicked in plus your

29:30

experience , obviously definitely , and

29:32

you know I grew up seeing my dad .

29:34

Um , my dad's business went into like

29:36

he went his business . He lost one business

29:38

, one went into liquidation and

29:41

when I say about that hustler , he would just pick

29:43

him like dust himself off , pick

29:45

himself back up resilience yeah , and

29:47

I think I think I've got that from my

29:49

dad .

29:50

Yeah , for sure . Well , we'll go . I mean

29:52

, we'll go on to what's happened on your personal

29:54

journey as well , carly , but I would say , yeah , if there's anyone

29:57

that embodies resilience , then you

29:59

are a very good example of that , for sure

30:01

. Okay . So

30:04

yeah , that through making those decisions , it's part

30:07

and parcel , I would say , of the type of role that

30:09

you , that you hold in in businesses

30:11

, um , but maybe

30:14

I mean ask about the , the kind

30:16

of personal impacts on you of having to make those

30:18

decisions , because maybe that's not always

30:20

thought about too much by the

30:22

individuals going through it . You're going through it too

30:24

, but you're also orchestrating

30:27

this for another 60 people yeah

30:29

so what's the what's the toll that takes on on

30:31

you ? you can be pragmatic about it and

30:34

you can be proactive and you know you've got to get

30:36

it done , but they're all hard decisions to

30:38

make they are .

30:39

But you I've really you have to put

30:41

your personal feelings to one side . Yeah

30:44

, um , I think you know

30:46

, immediately throwing yourself into action

30:48

and just making sure everyone else is going to be okay

30:51

and that they're , that

30:53

they're going to be kind of secure financially

30:56

when they're leaving , is something that I

30:58

worked really , really hard on

31:00

yeah um with our

31:03

um with our owners , essentially

31:05

um and within that . Obviously

31:07

I knew that I was going to also be okay

31:09

. So that was just a relief . That's all anyone wants

31:11

to know . I'm going to lose my job , okay . What

31:14

does this mean for me financially ? And then it's

31:16

just comfort for that with that blow so

31:18

. I just wanted to get that sorted out as soon as possible

31:21

. But for me personally

31:23

, in those kinds of situations you

31:25

have to put your feelings to one side and

31:27

just think of your workforce

31:29

, yeah , um . So , to

31:32

be honest with you , I don't really remember

31:34

thinking much just I

31:36

guess , a degree of autopilot as well .

31:38

Yeah , you just have to you have the

31:40

role .

31:41

I take my role very seriously in

31:43

those kinds of challenging times to

31:46

be that calm in that chaos , um

31:48

, and that's when I don't know how . I've said

31:50

this to many people . I

31:53

don't know how I do , but

31:55

I can .

31:56

I just can block myself off from what's happening

31:58

personally and just

32:00

get on with the job what an incredible skill

32:02

to have , because , as an empath as well , there's

32:04

always that risk that you're going to open

32:07

the floodgates to feel what everyone else

32:09

is feeling and it's not being able to

32:11

compartmentalize . It doesn't mean you're not feeling

32:13

it , but it means that's not going to stop you doing

32:15

the tasks and the jobs

32:17

that you know you need to get done yeah , but the last

32:19

thing that they need to see is is me

32:22

crumbling so that's

32:24

what's I .

32:25

I will go home and crumble and and

32:27

maybe that's kind of where my that's

32:29

my safe place . Yes , yeah , yeah and I'll talk

32:31

about it with , like my other half , who's I always

32:33

say he's my coach yeah , yeah

32:36

, um , they're the best relationships , aren't

32:38

they , when you've got that ? It kind of is yeah

32:41

yeah , exactly so I'm everyone's

32:43

therapist , he's mine .

32:44

So there you go , that's good , I mean

32:47

, he sounds like a legend . Okay

32:52

, so , from , from my drive , going through what

32:54

sounds like quite a I don't know again

32:57

another career defining moment for you to put yourself

33:00

, sort of . You forge yourself in those experiences , don't

33:02

you ? You never want to go for them again , I can imagine , but

33:04

you know that's part and parcel . And you gain that

33:06

experience and you start with a company

33:08

called influencer . That was the first

33:10

. Did you say ? That was the first job you interviewed for outside

33:13

of my drive ? Yeah , okay , and

33:16

tell us , just give us , a bit of context again about how

33:18

that happened . Because this is , this is

33:20

where I because I so , just for anyone

33:22

listening I've known carly for a long time . We

33:24

haven't spoken for a good number of years

33:26

and then , um , through

33:28

linkedin , the weird world of linkedin

33:30

, I started to

33:33

become aware that you had joined influencer

33:35

, which which , at the time and

33:37

I don't know much about the broader market was the

33:39

company doing what they were doing in

33:42

the industry they were doing it in . Is that a fair description

33:44

? Yeah , okay , so how did that

33:46

come about ? Because you played a huge

33:49

role in the growth of that business .

33:51

Yeah .

33:52

So just give us like a potted history

33:54

of getting that role .

33:56

Yeah .

33:57

And then what happened in the early formative

33:59

years there .

34:00

So I was looking , so obviously lost my job at

34:02

MyDrive and I was looking

34:04

for my next role , and

34:06

what attracted me to the role was

34:09

it was called head of heart yeah

34:11

, they , they'd labeled it , they'd labeled

34:13

it that okay , I didn't know if that was you

34:15

no retrospectively after joining

34:17

. Okay , I like that right but if

34:20

a title had any more alignment

34:23

to my place in an

34:25

organization organization yeah , um

34:27

, I was like this one's it

34:29

, so I applied and

34:31

yeah , and I got an interview , um

34:33

, and went into

34:35

their offices in covent garden

34:38

.

34:38

This , bearing in mind , was about

34:41

two months before the pandemic it's going to ask

34:43

where the chronology was , because I know like 2020

34:46

was a pretty big year for you anyway

34:48

. Yeah , for the world , I world , I could argue

34:50

, but definitely for you .

34:51

Yeah .

34:51

So that was . So we're talking February time

34:53

, January . Okay , right , yeah .

34:55

Yeah , so it was January and

34:58

yeah , met Ben

35:00

the CEO and

35:03

the COO at the time and

35:05

, to be honest with you , I

35:07

went for the role and I

35:10

just thought it might have been a bit big for me , but I thought

35:13

, just me being me , I'm just

35:15

going to put myself forward , see , if there's an opportunity

35:17

. I know what I can bring

35:19

to a company like this

35:22

. I

35:24

was really excited by the company and I think

35:26

that really came across to Ben and

35:28

him and I just hit it off straight away and I

35:30

remember sitting at the table at

35:33

the end of the interview and was just like

35:35

I'd love to work with you , like

35:37

give me this opportunity . And

35:40

he was just kind of like okay

35:42

, like you know , um , poker

35:44

face was on . But he since told me literally as

35:46

soon as I walked in he was like she's got the job oh

35:48

, wow , yeah , so I had a couple of stages

35:50

and um and then , yeah

35:53

, I got the job , so um , and

35:55

then I started there in

35:57

the March um

36:00

and what

36:01

a month what a month

36:03

, what a month , um .

36:04

So yeah , it was . It was really a really quite conflicting

36:07

time as well , because I was finishing up with

36:09

my drive um , and I was

36:11

contracted to stay there to get literally

36:13

turn the lights off yeah um , and

36:15

I wanted to see that through . I owed it to

36:18

the everybody that was staying on to do that

36:20

um and everything , so I really

36:22

wanted to see that through . I was really supporting my

36:24

my interim CEO , who was

36:26

the CTO and the founder of that business

36:28

as well um , who was finding it

36:30

really , really hard I could .

36:32

I can just imagine the complexity of all those emotions

36:35

.

36:35

Yeah , it was really really tough um

36:37

and I just wanted to

36:39

stay and um and see

36:41

it all through . But equally , I

36:43

had my new ceo and my

36:45

cvo , my two founders , calling me

36:47

when , um , everything was

36:50

kind of happening or working from home , like what

36:52

do ? Like , what do we do

36:54

? Like I think everybody in the world

36:56

in in the world of work

36:58

was just like how the hell are we going to navigate

37:00

this ? yeah , and they didn't have a people

37:03

function at all . So

37:05

they were calling me and I was just

37:07

had two conflicting things kind of going on

37:09

at the time so how much did they overlap then

37:11

, carly ?

37:12

the closing of my drive and then you starting

37:15

or being on influence rate .

37:16

So I wanted to finish at

37:18

my drive and then take two weeks off

37:20

, have a bit of a holly bob yeah and

37:23

then start at influencer

37:25

. But I finished at my drive on the Friday

37:27

and started at Influencer on the Monday .

37:30

Right , so yeah , wow

37:32

, so yeah . You are joining

37:34

a growing business . So

37:37

I don't know what the again the dictionary

37:39

definition of startup or scale-up are , but are

37:41

they startup ? At this point , they were startup

37:43

.

37:43

They just had their Series A .

37:45

Okay .

37:46

Yeah , literally , I think

37:48

a few months prior . Yeah , so , yeah , yeah

37:50

, yeah , um , literally I think a few months prior .

37:51

Yeah , um , so , yeah , very much startup and headcount wise at that count

37:53

wise .

37:53

They were 20 people at that point wow

37:56

um yeah and and

37:58

being told right guys .

38:00

Yeah , this is , this is the new world

38:03

. Everyone panic . So covid

38:05

covid hit every all offices

38:07

. They were based in covent garden .

38:09

They were based in Covent Garden . They just moved into their

38:11

new lovely office in Longacre

38:13

it was a stunning office as well . Really

38:15

great , really really great spot um

38:18

, and one of . It was actually one of the

38:20

reasons why I joined . It had such a great vibe

38:22

like when . I walked in real kind

38:25

of like in that hustly part of Covent Garden

38:27

, um and

38:29

um , yeah . So they had to tell everybody

38:31

to work from home . Literally , people

38:34

were walking out with their monitors under their

38:36

arm , going home , and oh , we should

38:38

be back in a week or two .

38:39

That was the viewpoint , wasn't it From so many people

38:41

? No one knew how long this

38:43

fucking thing was going to last .

38:46

Yeah , it was crazy . So

38:49

we were also . The plans were

38:51

so in my interview stages were

38:54

for us , within about sort of six months

38:56

, we would be opening our office in New York

38:58

and Ben was Ben and I were

39:00

actually there was crossover

39:02

. I was in New York for a few days

39:04

at the same time as Ben before

39:07

I joined , where he was looking at office

39:09

space and like potentially

39:11

signing contracts and things like that . But obviously that

39:14

, just that , got massively

39:16

put on pause and we didn't actually end up

39:18

opening in New York for about two years

39:20

later . I think it was .

39:22

So from your position you've gone

39:24

from security . You know the rollercoaster

39:27

of emotions you must've been going through at

39:29

my drive to turn the lights off . Then you're

39:31

starting with a new business . They've just , you

39:34

know , a few months after series , a funding

39:36

kicked in all these big growth

39:38

plans , the role , by your own admission , slightly

39:41

bigger than than your experience

39:43

was at the time , but all of the tools to make that

39:45

work for you yeah and then you , and then

39:47

you just get this explosion of

39:49

covid everyone has to work from home . Yeah

39:52

what are you feeling at that point again ? Does that

39:54

autopilot pragmatism kick

39:56

in ?

39:56

yeah , it did . Um . So I

39:58

immediately um put

40:01

a workforce together of senior managers

40:04

who met on calls every morning

40:06

, every afternoon , because all the rules and everything

40:08

were just changing constantly

40:10

, um , and what we needed

40:12

to be doing . So we were just meeting , checking

40:15

in who's doing okay , who's not . You

40:17

know what's the work that we've got out , what have we got to get

40:19

done ? What's the new guidance

40:21

that's coming out ? How are we going to navigate

40:24

that ? Um ? So , yeah , I just kind

40:26

of swung into action and um

40:28

, just did .

40:31

Now you've mentioned your son . Have you had your

40:33

little boy ?

40:34

Yeah , so he was about 16 months at that

40:36

point .

40:37

Wow , okay , so this is

40:39

a huge thing , okay

40:41

. Well , there's so many questions I want to ask on the

40:43

back of this and it's all the practicalities

40:46

of how you enable a workforce

40:48

to work remotely , and I think there's there's lots

40:50

of chats that have been had around that fortunately

40:53

, in a way , those are kind of standard

40:55

practice now for so many businesses . At the time

40:57

it was , it was all brand new . Yeah and

40:59

this remote working was just . It's

41:01

accelerated the adoption of it for so many companies

41:04

which I think there's a lot of positives from . But

41:06

, um , I'm going to save all those questions

41:08

because they get a bit geeky and we could probably talk about

41:10

it . Um , so you've got your

41:12

, you've got your son 16 months old

41:14

, you've started a brand new role

41:16

in a scaling business during the pandemic

41:18

, all the hurdles that you're getting over

41:20

and making waves and making an impact

41:22

, and then , in may

41:24

, you get some pretty big news

41:26

yeah , on the personal front , yeah

41:29

, in april , yeah yeah , so this is , I

41:31

would imagine , one of the biggest challenges you face

41:33

, so can you tell us a bit about that ?

41:35

yeah , so in the I'd been in the

41:37

job for about three weeks and

41:40

um , it was easter weekend

41:42

and so obviously there was a lovely long weekend

41:44

, and um , do you know what I

41:47

was really enjoying ? Lockdown yeah

41:49

I , I was , I think everybody was at first I

41:51

did . People were like popping . Prosecco at one o'clock

41:53

in the afternoon like just loving life , Not

41:55

that I was doing that in the week Banging pans , yeah

41:57

, banging pans clapping , clapping for

42:00

the NHS . Exactly , yeah . So

42:03

I was enjoying it quite a bit and

42:06

we just had a bit of a boozy Zoom call

42:08

the night before like pub quiz that

42:11

kind of thing . And I

42:13

woke up and I

42:15

got a text from Copperfield , which are a breast

42:17

cancer charity who send

42:20

monthly texts to people to remind

42:22

them to check their breasts . So I

42:24

thought , oh OK , I'll have a quick check because

42:26

it reminded me and

42:31

I felt a lump in my breast

42:33

and fast forward . A couple of

42:35

weeks later I was told that I had breast cancer . So , yeah , so

42:38

that was a pretty , yeah

42:40

, huge shock .

42:43

Yeah , I can't imagine , I

42:45

can't imagine . Usually , my response is yeah , I can

42:47

imagine , I just can't imagine what it must feel like

42:49

with everything else going on and

42:51

I guess that kind

42:54

of blows your world up when you hear that

42:56

, given you're , you're a mum

42:58

yeah given that you've started in this

43:00

new role , all these , all these things . I

43:03

remember finding out about your diagnosis

43:06

through some incredibly brave videos you were posting

43:08

on instagram at a time and I think my other half

43:10

reached out to you , yeah she did just

43:12

to say how brave and inspiring you were because

43:14

you faced that with so much grace throughout

43:17

the whole thing , so I don't think I've ever told you that

43:19

, but it was so amazing

43:21

to see the way you dealt with it , thank

43:23

you , but I I just can't

43:25

imagine internally all of the thoughts

43:27

that go through your head . So you

43:30

found out quite early , didn't you ? yeah , very

43:32

early so maybe

43:35

take us for a bit of that process and and what that . I don't even

43:37

know how many years that went on for and the treatment that you went through , carly

43:39

, can you talk a little bit about that ? Yeah , I don't even know how many years that went on

43:41

for and the treatment that you went through , carly

43:43

. Can you talk a little bit about that ? Yeah , I'm still

43:45

going through treatment , so it's still going

43:47

on , but the main thing is I'm cancer

43:49

free .

43:51

So basically it was during the pandemic

43:53

and I

43:56

called my GP after

43:58

the Easter weekend and

44:01

said you know , I've got a lump

44:03

, found a lump in my breast . What do I do

44:05

um ? And during

44:08

that time . So the lump that I felt um

44:10

was a really pea-sized lump and it was

44:12

very , very hard . It wasn't moving um

44:15

and my initial thought was

44:17

like fuck

44:19

, if I can swear sorry yeah , that's . That was

44:22

kind of what I thought um , that is a lump

44:24

. That's definitely a lump in my breast , um

44:26

, but equally , I was like I'm really

44:28

young , um , it

44:30

can't be cancer . And looking

44:33

you know , googling , um , you

44:36

know , nine times out of ten it's a cyst

44:38

or it's . You know , I'd had a baby 17

44:41

months before , so your breasts change

44:43

during that time , from breastfeeding and things like that

44:45

, and you get all kinds of lumps and bumps . Um

44:48

, so there were so many different

44:50

things it could have been . I was like I'm not

44:52

gonna freak out um , I'm

44:55

gonna just be , you know , logical

44:57

about this and , um , just

44:59

take this in stages . So I called my GP

45:01

, and it was , yeah

45:04

, obviously during the pandemic , and she said

45:06

, well , I can't see you right now

45:08

, so can you just wait

45:10

a bit . And I was like

45:12

I can't really wait . You

45:15

know , I've got a lump in my breast , you

45:17

know . So what can you do ? Because I was

45:19

thinking if I was calling you because

45:21

I'd just broken my leg , are you going to tell me to wait

45:23

? yeah , you know , just see how it goes yeah , just see

45:25

how it goes , like no , um

45:28

. So she then

45:30

said , um , well , you

45:32

know you have had a baby very recently

45:34

and sort of said about all the the breastfeeding kind

45:36

of stuff . And I was like , yeah , okay , that's fine . And

45:38

she said you know , and you're there's your cycle

45:40

as well , like there's a lot of change in women's cycles

45:43

and things like that with their breasts

45:45

and things like that . So it could be that

45:47

. And I was like I don't really want

45:49

to take a chance .

45:51

Surely someone can see me , you've got to advocate for

45:53

yourself at that point for sure .

45:56

And then , you know , I got very emotional on the

45:58

phone because I was just like I have

46:00

a family , you

46:04

need to see me , um . And she was like , okay , because you're so upset , I'm

46:06

gonna refer you to the breast clinic . So

46:09

I was like thanks , yeah , thanks hon

46:11

, yeah um so , um

46:13

so , yeah . So a couple of weeks later

46:15

sort of fast forward that time I went to

46:17

the breast clinic and um , even

46:20

then , you know um a

46:22

doctor sort of checks you first

46:24

um a physical examination

46:26

, and he was just like

46:29

I'm sure it's just a cyst , it's fine and

46:31

I was like great , okay , bearing in mind as well , obviously

46:33

, I'd just started my new job . So

46:35

they said allowed about three hours to be

46:37

at the breast clinic . I said to Ben , I was like I'll probably

46:39

only be half an hour , didn't even tell him

46:41

because I was like I've , I've only just started

46:43

working with this guy for three weeks , I'm

46:46

not gonna tell him . I've got a lump in my breast . I was like

46:48

I've got a hospital appointment , I'll be out

46:50

for a couple of hours this morning , but I'll be online

46:52

. Yeah , so I had my laptop and I was working away

46:54

in the breast clinic like a crazy woman

46:56

taking calls , everything , um

46:59

, and then , yeah , as time was kind of going

47:01

on , they did a mammogram

47:03

, then they did another

47:05

scan , then they did a biopsy

47:08

and as time was going on , I was like , oh , this

47:10

is . But I was thinking , well , they , you know , they're doing

47:12

all the checks , it's all fine , it's diligent , and

47:14

that's what you want . That's what you want

47:16

exactly , um , and I remember

47:19

like messaging ben , just being like I'm sorry , I

47:21

think I'm actually going to be here a bit longer , and he was

47:23

just like it's fine . And

47:25

then , yeah , they took me into a room and , bearing

47:27

in mind as well , I was at the appointment completely on

47:29

my own because it was the pandemic and you couldn't take

47:32

face masks . It wasn't even the time of face masks

47:35

so literally the social

47:37

, there was social distancing , um

47:40

, so yeah , so got told

47:42

that when I was completely on my own . So

47:44

I think that out of everything

47:46

was probably the worst out of all

47:49

, of it , being told that news

47:51

on your own is the worst thing

47:53

that someone could have

47:55

to go through and a relative stranger

47:57

sat across from you at

48:00

two meters apart yeah , you

48:02

know , they couldn't even give me a hug , yeah

48:04

even if they wanted to yeah , it's just a , not

48:06

a thing that you can do .

48:08

Yeah , yeah , it was hard , yeah , yeah

48:10

okay , I don't want to dwell

48:12

on it too much because I don't , yeah , but

48:14

I feel I really appreciate the transparency

48:16

, because I think again , if anyone's listening to this

48:19

, that that you can help

48:21

or at least get thinking if they do need

48:23

to go through the process of getting checked , and

48:25

I know you're a big advocate for doing that making

48:28

sure the awareness is very high , so still

48:30

going through treatment , yeah

48:33

, still going through treatment .

48:35

So , I had . So I

48:37

had a mastectomy , then

48:39

I had reconstruction , had

48:45

a mastectomy , then I had reconstruction and then I had chemo

48:48

and then I had , and now I'm on hormone therapy , which is so

48:50

. My cancer was an oestrogen receptive cancer

48:52

, so they basically I

48:54

can't produce oestrogen in my body in case there's any

48:56

sort of dormant cancer cells still in there . So

48:59

I have have these injections um

49:01

monthly that shut my ovaries

49:03

down , and I have to take a tablet every day to

49:06

ensure everything's just kind of like not being

49:08

not produced . So I'm therefore in a medical

49:10

menopause yeah I've been in a medical menopause

49:13

for , uh well , since october

49:16

2020 . Um , so

49:18

yeah , so that continues for five years , but

49:21

I actually made the decision to stop

49:24

in December of last year . Okay

49:26

, because it's and it's quite

49:28

a common thing , and I think that's something that women

49:30

need to know , that they've got options . They

49:32

don't just have to do what an oncologist

49:34

is telling them to . You can go out

49:36

and look at data and you know there's a lot of data

49:39

out there for anyone that's going through

49:41

breast cancer and going through hormone

49:43

therapy . It is really tough

49:45

going through a medical menopause

49:47

. You have

49:50

so much brain fog . You know we were talking before I came

49:52

in here and I completely just blanked

49:54

in what I was saying to you . And

49:56

that is so . It's hard . It's

49:58

really embarrassing as a woman when that's happening to

50:01

you . There's a lot of weight gain , there's a lot

50:03

of fatigue Because

50:06

you're not producing oestrogen anymore . The

50:08

hormone oestrogen is like a tonic for your joints

50:10

, so you have really achy joints . Right . And

50:13

I was even finding on my dog walks , which

50:15

I love , my hips . I

50:18

felt like I was like a 60 year old .

50:23

Sorry , to only 60 year olds like I'm sure there's very , very mobile 60 year olds .

50:25

Yeah , exactly , but it was just really tough and I'm , you

50:27

know , in sort of my mid to late 30s

50:29

and I I just got fed

50:31

up of feeling like this and I've

50:34

been given this chance in my life

50:36

. You know , if the cancer was found early , it was taken

50:39

out . I've done everything that I can

50:41

to ensure I'm as healthy as

50:43

possible . Um , I

50:45

want good quality of life now

50:47

that's .

50:48

That's exactly what I was going to say it becomes about a balance

50:50

of and I can't put myself in your position

50:52

, but I , if , if I stretch so

50:55

far to be able to imagine , I

50:57

think after a point you have to . You

50:59

have to factor that in , don't you ? Especially with a

51:01

young family ? Yeah , exactly

51:03

um .

51:05

So yeah , it was

51:07

just really important to me that after

51:09

making that kind of decision and it was something

51:11

you know I'd never advocate to go

51:13

and do that on your own you have to talk to your breast care

51:15

team and I've got a team behind me

51:18

who are really , really supportive . Um

51:20

so , um so

51:22

, based on , you know , my cancer type and everything

51:25

, the treatments and everything that I've had and

51:27

my lifestyle . You know I'm

51:29

I should be okay the prognosis

51:31

is really good , the prognosis is really good .

51:33

So that's the main thing , amazing

51:35

from start

51:37

to say start to finish ? Obviously it's . It

51:40

continues , car Carly

51:42

, but from the start to the point

51:44

where you kind of finished your treatment and became

51:46

cancer free , how

51:48

much of that time was

51:50

in parallel with your time at Influencer ? I

51:53

mean all of it . All of it . Yeah , okay

51:56

. Yeah . I was going to ask you . I'll

51:58

group both of these things . They're very different

52:00

. Um life events , obviously , but becoming

52:02

a mum yeah I guess

52:04

gives you a completely different perspective

52:07

on your role

52:09

as a head of people ahead of heart yeah because

52:11

you're an empath so

52:13

you can empathize with parents without

52:16

necessarily being one , but when you become

52:18

one and I know this from my own transition

52:21

into fatherhood too nothing prepares

52:23

you for being a parent until you've actually got

52:25

a human being that is yours , that you have to

52:27

look after . So so you've

52:29

had that , and then you've had , obviously

52:32

, your you know incredible journey

52:34

with with being diagnosed with breast cancer

52:36

too . Do you feel like both of those events

52:39

have kind of I'm

52:41

not going to say helped you in

52:44

what you do for a living , but have they informed

52:46

or impacted what you now do for a living

52:48

in terms of the way you can empathise ?

52:50

They've empowered me .

52:51

Yeah , amazing , I love that word . Yeah , they've

52:53

really empowered me .

52:56

And everything else that you just said , absolutely

52:59

Like . It's empowered

53:01

me . It's enabled me

53:03

to empathize with mothers

53:06

, fathers , people going through adoption

53:08

, people going through fertility treatment and

53:10

in my , more recently , I've really noticed as

53:12

well a lot of women of my age who haven't

53:15

, you know , inverted commas settled down or

53:17

you know , aren't , you know , conforming

53:19

to what society tells you to do

53:21

and are freezing their eggs and

53:23

they're taking injections and they feel really

53:25

rubbish and like I think actually

53:27

organizations need to be looking at that a little bit

53:29

more especially with the gen z workforce

53:31

coming in , um . So yeah , there's

53:34

a lot there . It's really helped me to kind of empathize

53:37

. In that sense it's helped me to empathize with

53:39

women who are older going through the menopause

53:41

, women who are my age going through the

53:43

perimenopause . It's helped

53:46

me to empathize with cancer patients and

53:48

carers and everything

53:50

. So I genuinely

53:52

think it's empowered me in my

53:54

role even more so .

53:55

What a great perspective to take from it as well , because

53:58

I would imagine the path of least

54:00

resistance is to get into a hole and just feel

54:02

like my world is literally

54:04

ending and to have taken

54:06

those lessons from it I think are great . And just

54:09

to give carly's page a shout out , where she shares

54:11

just remind me of the handle on instagram I'm

54:14

gonna mention it um , it's um at soul

54:16

and see wellness nice , yeah , so

54:18

. So yeah , carly has been a big advocate

54:20

for awareness during her

54:22

journey with with breast cancer and

54:24

now wellness and health and well-being

54:27

post that diagnosis yeah

54:29

so there are . There are amazing stuff on

54:31

there . We were talking before recording that Carly's gonna continue

54:34

investing some time in that . Yeah , karen

54:36

, showcasing that , wow

54:39

, okay , that's quite the year , so

54:42

just just to kind of ease in

54:44

after that . So you so I'm wondering

54:46

when you know I don't know what the

54:48

process is , but when you've got the diagnosis , now that

54:50

you're cancer free . So I imagine

54:52

there's a , there's a feeling of

54:55

is it as far as elation

54:57

or is it ? Is there anything ? What ?

54:59

did you feel ? No , there's not . It's really strange

55:01

, because you never . I don't , I'm

55:03

not speaking for all cancer

55:05

patients , but your personal situation

55:07

. You don't feel like you're ever cancer

55:10

free .

55:10

Right .

55:11

It's . I don't know what it is . It's a trauma

55:13

. Yeah . I remember

55:15

coming out of there and actually my other half

55:17

was allowed to come with me to that appointment , and

55:24

he was just like , oh my god , he was elated , like thank god , you know

55:26

, blah , blah , blah and I just felt really

55:28

numb because I think as well , I had chemo coming

55:30

up , I had um , and

55:33

then I knew I had all of the hormone therapy and I still

55:35

had a reconstruction coming up , which is a

55:37

major , major operation it's

55:39

not what people think it is um

55:42

, and there were still

55:44

hurdles to go over and

55:46

you . I think only

55:48

now , since stopping the hormone therapy

55:51

, I actually feel cancer free

55:53

okay because when

55:55

you're still going through treatment , which

55:57

most cancer patients are , even after

55:59

they get that wonderful news- by the way , I'm

56:01

not saying that's not the news that you

56:03

don't want to hear um , you've

56:06

still got a lot of hurdles to go over , so

56:08

you're just , and yeah , you , just , you

56:11

feel like you're . It's a really strange

56:14

, it's a real . There's a real psychological

56:16

thing and I don't think that , um , there

56:18

is enough support out there for people

56:20

post-cancer , for

56:22

the mental sort

56:25

of effects of something like

56:27

that , no matter how good your prognosis

56:29

was . Yeah you , you just feel

56:31

like a cancer patient forever and you essentially feel

56:33

like your cards are marked yeah like I know

56:35

, one day I'll probably die from this disease . So

56:38

right it's just

56:40

something that you

56:43

have to learn to live with yeah , that's

56:45

a really good call to arms .

56:46

I think that that focus , that there needs to be more

56:48

support post diagnosis or post

56:50

being labeled cancer free doesn't mean

56:52

that the whole impact , the trauma

56:55

, the ptsd almost from that whole experience

56:57

there really is you're really

56:59

.

57:00

It's really strange and there's so much that

57:02

needs to change in the system when

57:04

people are diagnosed . I can't tell you the

57:06

amount of leaflets I was handed

57:08

at every appointment . I didn't

57:10

look at them right I don't want to look at them . I

57:13

I'm dealing with a cancer diagnosis and an

57:15

18 month old and a pandemic and a new

57:17

job . I don't want to look at your leaflets

57:19

. Like there needs to be like , but

57:21

also who does who ? Who who

57:24

does anymore ? Like we get everything on our phone and

57:26

I remember saying to them there needs to be an app

57:29

. You need to give me an app and I need a notification

57:32

of you know being a 30 year old

57:34

with cancer and dating after cancer

57:36

, because they just put you in that demographic

57:38

, which is fine , but there's 50

57:40

year olds that are single and want to date after

57:42

cancer and like there's so much that I could talk about on

57:45

it but , um , but yeah

57:47

, that kind of the mental side effects you're really

57:49

supported during but

57:51

after , after all of the treatment

57:54

, you are left yeah , and you are

57:56

then not in your survival mode anymore

57:58

. You're not then thinking right , I've got chemo . Right

58:00

, let's do this down . Round one , round two

58:02

got through that you're then left

58:04

and you're like what the fuck

58:07

has just happened to me and no

58:09

one's there to support you and

58:11

you . You are offered to go to this

58:13

group or go to this meetup . I don't want to go there

58:15

. I am processing . You know , some

58:17

people might want to , they might feel

58:20

comfortable doing that . It wasn't for me . I

58:22

was just like no , I'm , you know , I'm a bit more internal

58:24

and I want to process things and maybe a

58:26

little bit more on my own some of the words that come to mind

58:29

, and maybe these are right or wrong , but , like

58:31

your mourning , to a degree there's grief that

58:33

you're going through all these things that

58:35

take that people process in a very personal

58:38

and individual way .

58:39

And yeah , okay , I mean I'm

58:41

. I'm gonna go on speak about work again yeah , no

58:43

, that's fine go ahead , but I don't like I'm

58:45

not glazing over anything you've discussed . I think

58:47

it's incredibly brave that you you're so

58:50

honest and open about your experience with it , so thank

58:52

you for that that's all right , but I think what you've just said

58:54

will really resonate with a lot of people the whole post

58:56

the post care post

58:58

support piece . So that can

59:00

just highlight that as an issue .

59:02

I think that's really important to share yeah , and I

59:04

think if anyone is actually struggling with that as well

59:06

, breast cancer now are amazing , so call their

59:08

helpline brilliant .

59:09

Okay , we'll put that in the in the episode description

59:11

. Thank you for that . Okay

59:14

, so you've gone through quite a journey

59:16

. February 2022 you're

59:18

working with influencer . We've

59:20

just we're kind of getting all the news that the pandemic's

59:22

over this is it like you know as much as

59:24

it is over . There's still glimpses every now and again of

59:26

it , of it returning as in like covid

59:29

. But february 2022 you

59:31

have another challenge at work yeah um

59:34

, which is the russian invasion

59:36

of ukraine . Yeah , now

59:38

I don't . You know , a lot of people would

59:40

have had to in your position in in

59:42

companies with a workforce out

59:45

in that area would have had to deal with a similar

59:47

thing . But that as a head

59:49

of heart that you still were at the time .

59:51

I was VP .

59:52

VP yeah , I was promoted

59:54

to VP within

59:56

18 months .

59:57

Wow , okay , so yeah , I was VP

59:59

at that time .

1:00:00

Right . So you've already played a significant

1:00:02

role in influencers growth through

1:00:05

some really tumultuous times in

1:00:07

your personal life too . And

1:00:09

then the Russia-Ukraine

1:00:11

invasion happens .

1:00:12

Yeah .

1:00:13

Can you just tell me a little bit about what that is like

1:00:15

? Because there's making

1:00:18

60 people redundant and then there are

1:00:20

dealing with helping people that

1:00:22

work for your company , that are living in a war zone

1:00:24

. So it's quite a broad question

1:00:27

, but tell me about what that experience was like um

1:00:29

the most

1:00:31

challenging time

1:00:34

in my career to date without a doubt , um

1:00:37

, and that actually really impact .

1:00:38

That was , I would say , that actually really impacted

1:00:41

me personally as well . I mean , of course

1:00:43

it would yeah , as an empath

1:00:45

or just a human being , yeah and I think you

1:00:47

know we sort of spoke about how I can kind

1:00:49

of go into this block , and

1:00:51

I think I do think that's very common amongst

1:00:53

HR professionals . You know you

1:00:56

have to because you're dealing with people's

1:00:58

lives and sometimes you have to give them not great

1:01:00

news and you learn to kind of block

1:01:03

um but um

1:01:05

, but that was something that you couldn't . So

1:01:08

, um , we tried to prepare for

1:01:10

it as much as we could . Um , there

1:01:12

was a I was doing a lot of contingency

1:01:14

planning at the time . I had a team over in ukraine

1:01:16

all engineers and um

1:01:19

, I was speaking to them about

1:01:21

, um , what they thought

1:01:23

was happening . You know a bit about the history

1:01:26

of everything that was going on .

1:01:27

You know you're trying to like understand what the

1:01:29

actual history between the cultural

1:01:31

significance because we're detached from it

1:01:33

, especially at that point , and also , you know

1:01:35

, there was so much media buzz going on around

1:01:37

it at the time .

1:01:38

You kind of like , okay , are we creating

1:01:40

something here that might not be ? And

1:01:42

they were very relaxed about it . They

1:01:44

were very ah , this has been

1:01:46

going on for like 70 odd years , carly

1:01:48

you know , we don't need to worry . And I'm like , okay , yeah

1:01:51

, but if this

1:01:53

is going to be happening and I remember at the time

1:01:55

the tanks were literally on the border and

1:01:58

I was like , you know , the tanks are there , so what

1:02:00

is your plan if there's an attack ? And

1:02:02

they were telling me where they were going to go , and

1:02:05

that was in terms of either north

1:02:07

, south west , whatever country

1:02:10

, and also we had a sponsorship

1:02:13

license . So I was trying to also understand

1:02:15

if they'd come over to the UK how easy that

1:02:17

would be for them , their family

1:02:19

set up , you know , because some , you know , don't

1:02:21

want to leave their family . Some

1:02:24

are parents , some are carers for their parents

1:02:26

. They're not going to leave their parents . And I

1:02:28

was just trying to understand everything and then , from

1:02:30

that information I was getting , I

1:02:33

then started to understand

1:02:35

a little bit more about the countries they were going into , the

1:02:37

schools in their areas , airbnbs

1:02:40

, housing , how much that would cost

1:02:42

so we could then put , provide a relocation

1:02:44

package for them . And I wanted to get all

1:02:47

of that signed off before anything

1:02:49

should happen , and I did right and

1:02:52

we agreed it , ben , my ceo and

1:02:54

I , and our um chief product

1:02:56

officer raf yeah , yeah , he you know well

1:02:58

at the time . So we

1:03:00

did that and I'm so glad that we did that

1:03:02

what an amazing thing it just meant that when

1:03:05

it happened , we on that day

1:03:07

we swung right into action

1:03:09

.

1:03:09

We had the whole action plan there and we just

1:03:11

went into action but what like

1:03:14

have you got a support network of other people

1:03:16

like you in organizations

1:03:18

? Yeah and you have an opportunity to collaborate

1:03:20

or at least have conversations to sanity

1:03:23

checkpoints and their forums

1:03:25

. Uh , you know what commute what ? What is

1:03:27

your community ? Like , yeah , I have a huge

1:03:29

community doing it on your own is , I

1:03:32

would imagine , impossible yeah , it is um

1:03:34

so since the pandemic .

1:03:36

Actually , I had a community before , but it

1:03:38

definitely grew since the pandemic , because of obviously

1:03:40

all of that , um . So yeah , I have

1:03:42

slack groups and through that I've created

1:03:45

, I've got a great community and people

1:03:48

literally at the end of the phone if I want to call them about

1:03:50

things , so well needed because , because

1:03:52

again in that , especially in that leadership

1:03:54

role , it's very , it can be a very lonely place yeah

1:03:57

, it's a lonely especially in your organization

1:03:59

.

1:03:59

You are expected to be the oracle , like the fountain

1:04:01

of knowledge . Help us , Carly .

1:04:03

Exactly , fuck Okay .

1:04:04

Yeah , let me , let me try

1:04:06

yeah .

1:04:07

Yeah . What an amazing initiative , though

1:04:09

like to be able to collate all of that stuff and then

1:04:12

go and get it done , yeah

1:04:14

it was , and I'm so

1:04:16

proud of the work that we did there

1:04:18

and how we helped and how

1:04:20

we led the organization through that

1:04:23

as well , because obviously , you know , aside

1:04:25

from my engineers literally being in a

1:04:27

war zone , everybody

1:04:29

else in the company was really distressed

1:04:32

with what was going on , what they were seeing . You

1:04:34

know we were keeping the contingency planning

1:04:37

. They don't need to know that . Everybody

1:04:39

in the business didn't need to know that . Leadership knew about

1:04:41

it and we didn't want to worry anyone

1:04:44

. But obviously when they can see what's happening

1:04:46

on the news it was really important that comms

1:04:48

were going out from us to say

1:04:50

how the team are , what we're doing

1:04:52

, you know um , and

1:04:54

how they can be looking after themselves as well

1:04:56

at the time . So I'm really , really

1:04:59

proud of how we led that

1:05:01

. Yeah . And

1:05:08

yeah , and just so , everyone knows that the whole team were fine and they managed to get to safety . But

1:05:10

the resilience of the Ukrainian

1:05:13

people is just makes

1:05:15

me upset . Next , level .

1:05:17

Because they're just amazing . Yeah , what

1:05:19

a thing to go through on the back of everything

1:05:21

else . I know . It's just absolute

1:05:23

madness . I know . Okay

1:05:26

, I'm just thinking from your perspective . How

1:05:29

the hell do you reflect that on a CV ? It's

1:05:32

such a pivotal thing that you've done

1:05:34

and played a part in , but

1:05:36

to try and do that you know I read CVs

1:05:38

and the guidance I give is try and keep

1:05:40

it concise . But

1:05:43

I'm like wow . So you

1:05:45

are playing , I think , in all of the

1:05:47

roles that you've been in , but

1:05:51

especially Influencer , where you've been given this scope to really build a culture from the ground

1:05:53

up . Culture , I think , is you can

1:05:55

tell me if it's wrong but an important part

1:05:57

of what you do is in building , developing , defining

1:05:59

a culture . Can

1:06:04

you I'm putting you on the spot can you tell me your definition of what a culture

1:06:06

is within an organization or a business ?

1:06:08

yeah , I mean . Culture

1:06:11

to me is how

1:06:13

your organization behaves

1:06:16

. It's how they have their meetings

1:06:18

. It's their values . It's

1:06:20

how they live and breathe their values . It's the guiding principles around their values . It's their

1:06:22

values . It's how they live and breathe their values . It's the guiding principles

1:06:24

around their values . It's

1:06:27

how , um , they're

1:06:29

growing their people um

1:06:32

, and it's their

1:06:34

transparency with their people . It's how they're

1:06:36

communicating with their people um

1:06:39

. That's culture to me yeah

1:06:41

it's not ping pong tables and pizza , and

1:06:43

that is an element of it . There is

1:06:45

a , there is an element of social

1:06:48

um which is really important

1:06:50

um , but

1:06:52

all the other stuff is so much more important

1:06:54

um , and that's culture to me , in

1:06:57

in an organization because

1:06:59

I think holistically I mean again , it's a big

1:07:01

narrative on linkedin like yeah , um

1:07:04

, stick two fingers up to ping pong tables and pizza

1:07:06

and all this stuff don't get me wrong .

1:07:08

I think it plays a small part in a much , much

1:07:10

bigger puzzle yeah but , yeah , like

1:07:12

showing , showcasing your culture by

1:07:14

highlighting those aspects of just having a call

1:07:17

office if even if you define that as a call office

1:07:19

is probably not hitting the nail on

1:07:21

the head , so I love that . What

1:07:23

is it ? Because you talked about identifying

1:07:26

your passion and now understanding what it is you want to

1:07:28

be when you grow up and um

1:07:30

, which is , which is amazing , I think like learning

1:07:32

that about yourself and understanding that . I think it's really

1:07:34

important . But what is it that keeps you passionate about

1:07:37

doing this for businesses , moving forward the

1:07:39

whole culture piece . Is

1:07:41

it the people ? I'm assuming it's . It's

1:07:44

the people and the people .

1:07:46

It's the change that you can as

1:07:48

a people leader yeah that you can implement

1:07:51

. It's being that

1:07:53

calm in the chaos . Um

1:07:56

, that's what I love

1:07:58

about it . It's the growth

1:08:00

as well , especially in

1:08:02

the startup scale-up space . I wouldn't

1:08:04

have the career I've

1:08:06

had if I'd have gone and worked for some massive

1:08:09

thousand-person corporate . Yeah . I

1:08:11

just would be . I

1:08:14

don't know , I just wouldn't be doing what

1:08:16

I do now .

1:08:17

Well , I guess when you talk about change , you've got

1:08:19

more opportunities to facilitate

1:08:21

change in a smaller organization yeah

1:08:23

and and for me , when I'm hiring

1:08:25

for startup and scale-ups again

1:08:28

, working with people like yourself and working closely with people

1:08:31

, heads of people , vps of people , um

1:08:33

, being part of that

1:08:36

early stage in defining what the culture is

1:08:38

. I think it's both . It's tough

1:08:40

because you play an even more important

1:08:42

role , but at least you're shaping something

1:08:45

from the ground up yeah , as opposed to having to

1:08:47

go into an organization looking at a culture

1:08:49

and thinking , ah shit , we need to make

1:08:51

some changes here yeah because doing that retrospectively

1:08:53

, I imagine , is harder yeah

1:08:56

, it is just a different challenge yeah

1:08:58

okay for me as

1:09:00

well .

1:09:01

It's about in the job

1:09:03

you're helping people as

1:09:05

well and I think that's part of my purpose

1:09:07

yeah I just want to help people yeah

1:09:09

you know , I want to help employees

1:09:12

in work understand what their rights are as

1:09:14

an employee . I want to help ceos

1:09:17

and founders grow their businesses

1:09:19

um , and I

1:09:22

want to . I want to help others

1:09:24

. You know like I want to help mothers in the workplace I

1:09:26

want to help women going through menopause in the workplace

1:09:28

. I there's . I want to help people

1:09:30

grow their careers because I'm someone who

1:09:32

literally has hustled

1:09:34

to get to where I am now yeah

1:09:37

um , and I know

1:09:39

what that's like . I wanted to start from

1:09:41

the bottom to get to essentially the top

1:09:43

. Yeah . And

1:09:47

that's just what I want to do . I want to help people that

1:09:49

have had breast cancer . I want to help people understand

1:09:51

how important well-being is and their

1:09:54

nutrition is , and how

1:09:56

important exercise is , and things like that

1:09:58

, and I feel like I can do all of

1:10:00

that in what I do , things

1:10:05

like that , and I feel like I can do all of that in in what I do . Yeah , um , so it's quite a powerful , empowering

1:10:07

position to be in an organization

1:10:09

, um , but I it's

1:10:11

a really I take a great deal

1:10:13

of like responsibility with what I do

1:10:15

, um , but yeah

1:10:18

, and I just love it , yeah that's

1:10:20

what it falls down to , is what it comes down to you , just love it . Yeah , that's what it falls

1:10:22

down to isn't it ?

1:10:22

That's what it falls down to . You just love it , yeah , and that really comes across . So

1:10:25

maybe give me an idea because

1:10:28

I think it's going to be interesting to a lot of people that maybe don't

1:10:30

work in that space , and there's a couple

1:10:32

of again . I keep

1:10:34

using the word narrative but let's say there's opinions

1:10:36

floating around that culture might be the wrong

1:10:38

word sometimes to define or describe what

1:10:41

people are building in organizations or , you

1:10:43

know , hiring to a culture fit . As

1:10:46

an example , I give that and people

1:10:48

seemingly have an issue with that

1:10:50

sometimes . But I think , just

1:10:52

having a bit of a insight

1:10:55

into what it's like and the impact you make

1:10:57

on a company culture , so say , let's

1:10:59

say , influencer , using that as an example

1:11:02

, what is your , some of your methodology

1:11:04

at going into a business from at that

1:11:06

level and then being the

1:11:08

orchestrator , the artist , if

1:11:11

you like , of putting , of building

1:11:13

that culture from the ground up , like what are

1:11:15

some of the pivotal or key things that

1:11:17

you focus on when you , when you first join

1:11:19

? This isn't an interview , by the way I'm

1:11:21

not interviewing for your job , but I'm just interested . I

1:11:24

think a lot of people might be in building a culture

1:11:26

. Yeah , because it's such a broad task , like

1:11:28

if you said to me right , we need help building our culture

1:11:30

, but some companies are looking for that yeah

1:11:32

so so what do you focus on ? What are

1:11:34

the building blocks ?

1:11:35

I think it's about thinking about it really purposefully

1:11:38

okay I've always said to think about

1:11:40

it like it's a product of your business and

1:11:42

it is a product of your business . Um

1:11:44

, you know , your employees are your greatest

1:11:46

asset , is what's always kind of said , and

1:11:48

it is true . Um , so

1:11:51

you need to think your culture like a product , so you

1:11:53

need to . Something that I actually

1:11:55

did at influencer is I workshopped

1:11:58

it . I workshopped our values

1:12:00

. You know , are these the values that we

1:12:02

want ? What other you know values

1:12:04

do we want ? What are the behaviors that we want

1:12:06

from these values ? What are the guiding

1:12:09

principles in the company that we want

1:12:11

people to sort of remind

1:12:13

themselves ? This is what we kind of stand for

1:12:16

and this is how we want you to be operating

1:12:18

. And you know , again , like I say , like , what are

1:12:20

we kind of stand for and this is how we want you to be operating

1:12:22

. And you know , again , like I say , like , what are our kind of key behaviors ? What do we

1:12:24

want to be seeing from people and how

1:12:26

can we build that ? How

1:12:29

can we kind of build that into our

1:12:31

workforce ? So ways that you can do that in

1:12:33

a company are through progression

1:12:37

and development pathways and

1:12:39

frameworks . You know you have your different

1:12:41

levels and things like that in organizations

1:12:43

. So , okay , I'm a junior

1:12:45

. How do I get to be a level three

1:12:48

, a managerial position . This is

1:12:50

what the organization would want to see from me behaviorally

1:12:52

. This is how they want to see me holding meetings

1:12:55

. This is how they want to see me showcase

1:12:57

the company externally . This is what they want to see

1:13:00

me showcase the company externally . Yeah , um , this is what they want

1:13:02

to see from me in terms of my training , um

1:13:04

, and and that kind of thing so I think , that is

1:13:06

a really great way , a starting point um

1:13:09

with your culture .

1:13:10

I completely agree . I mean , I've started

1:13:12

doing some , some consulting work around

1:13:15

employee value proposition yeah and going into

1:13:17

companies and I and I have to say the

1:13:19

businesses I enjoy supporting most are startups

1:13:21

, because you are doing that from the ground up . And

1:13:23

I think for any business . So if I

1:13:25

were looking to grow , the first

1:13:27

person I would hire or the first person I would look

1:13:29

for advice from is someone like you .

1:13:31

Yeah , and it's surprising how many companies

1:13:33

don't .

1:13:33

It's scary because I think it's undervalued

1:13:36

skill set number one . It's

1:13:38

underappreciated , yeah , and

1:13:40

you think you're going to be able to do it retrospectively

1:13:43

yeah but imagine how much harder

1:13:45

that is when you've got a team of people working

1:13:47

with you that are all . Yeah , you might have I

1:13:50

don't know you might have mistakenly created

1:13:52

this culture through the , through

1:13:55

the , the army of people you've got working for you at

1:13:57

any one stage . But if it's not been driven , as you say

1:13:59

, if people don't understand the why or they're not on board with

1:14:01

the values or the mission or the purpose as

1:14:03

you continue to grow , that's going to become a shaky

1:14:06

foundation to build on , isn't it ? So , yeah , for

1:14:08

me , I'm not just , I'm not just big up in the

1:14:10

people , your skill set , but , honestly

1:14:12

, if I was looking to grow , you'd be the first person

1:14:14

I'd be speaking to yeah because I'd need that

1:14:16

guidance yeah . I want the building blocks

1:14:19

, the foundation , to be as solid yeah , as it

1:14:21

possibly could be .

1:14:22

Yeah , I , funnily enough , I'm I'm

1:14:24

in a process with with a company

1:14:26

at the moment and , um , they

1:14:30

, I know they've had the role advertised for

1:14:32

about four or five months and . I ? I just said

1:14:34

why have you taken so long to fill this role

1:14:36

?

1:14:36

you know .

1:14:37

I know this role has been open for a really long time

1:14:39

.

1:14:39

I know when I applied why are you talking to me

1:14:41

?

1:14:41

now and they were

1:14:43

just like oh , you know , we've just kind of put

1:14:45

it on hold and for this reason , that

1:14:47

reason and I was just like that's

1:14:50

the worst thing that you could do you want to scale

1:14:52

to x number of people in the next three years

1:14:54

? you should have hired me or someone

1:14:56

like me a few months ago because

1:14:58

I really truly believe , once

1:15:01

you get that funding and you're able

1:15:03

, yeah , to um , the

1:15:06

company has kind of got that investment and and

1:15:08

you're , and you've got that back in , I think your

1:15:10

people leader should be first hire yeah

1:15:13

because not just for that , like that

1:15:15

culture building , but there's that with

1:15:17

the founders , the ceos . You are

1:15:19

there , you're just

1:15:21

. You work for me . I'm there

1:15:24

at the , at the end of the phone

1:15:26

at several times therapy

1:15:28

, coaching

1:15:30

, whatever it is , yeah coaching advice

1:15:32

of all of it . Yeah , um

1:15:34

, there's so much . I mean , look at what the world has thrown

1:15:37

at us over the last few years .

1:15:39

Hopefully , you know we don't have we're

1:15:41

on an even keel for a little bit , please god

1:15:43

, until the aliens come .

1:15:45

But you , you just need that person

1:15:47

. You need that person . Who's who's

1:15:49

, who's got those soft

1:15:52

skills ? Yeah um , in

1:15:54

your organization , which

1:15:57

are just so essential to

1:16:00

growing your workforce , to having a

1:16:02

workforce that are truly behind you , who

1:16:05

are going to perform and really thrive . Um

1:16:07

, yeah , so it's , it's

1:16:10

just such an important , it's such an important

1:16:12

culture . So important , yeah

1:16:14

, um , and it's so , so broad

1:16:17

, so vast .

1:16:18

I think the mistake a lot of people as

1:16:20

we've already both I think we've both defined , is

1:16:22

that people feel like they can do it themselves and they undervalue

1:16:24

that as a skill set and and the

1:16:26

the term I think I think you've probably engaged

1:16:29

, actually , with a blog that I did on soft skills

1:16:31

being such a bad label

1:16:33

yeah , for the set of skills that I think are going to be

1:16:35

the real differentiators for everyone moving

1:16:37

forward , especially with automation

1:16:40

, especially with ai , like soft skills will be

1:16:42

. Yeah , we have to come up with a different label . But they

1:16:44

yeah , they undermine

1:16:46

qualities in people just because we call

1:16:48

them soft skills . But these are differentiators

1:16:51

as we progress . I've

1:16:53

got a couple more questions and then we're nearly done . I

1:16:55

was going to talk to you about the evolution

1:16:57

of the skill set that you've got and and whether

1:17:00

that's been accelerated by things like

1:17:02

the pandemic , by things like the war in ukraine

1:17:04

, and I think

1:17:06

people , people , as I label

1:17:09

them are doing so much more now

1:17:11

yeah and I do think that the pandemic

1:17:13

could real , could really be like a new chapter

1:17:15

starting yeah , I agree with that , yeah

1:17:17

it's just such a more far-reaching role

1:17:19

now , yeah , and I think , broadly

1:17:23

speaking , more people respect what it is that you

1:17:25

guys are doing now and ever , yeah there's a lot

1:17:27

more value placed around it . Yeah

1:17:30

, how do you think it's grown ? Do you feel like fingers

1:17:32

crossed ? We are on now a bit more of an even keel in

1:17:34

terms of hopefully there's no more pandemics

1:17:36

or wars but , you've

1:17:39

seen the evolution of it .

1:17:40

I've seen the evolution of it . Um

1:17:42

, I think the pandemic really

1:17:45

polarized . It highlighted

1:17:47

what we are , we can

1:17:49

do , and for me it's

1:17:52

, yeah , an evolution of a skill set . I

1:17:54

always knew it was there . I always knew it was in

1:17:56

me . I didn't quite know what it

1:17:58

was um , but it's

1:18:00

played out and I , and I had it in me

1:18:02

. I think I think as

1:18:04

well . There's a lot around sustainability now

1:18:06

. That's on the map . You know I influence

1:18:08

. I got them to be called status

1:18:10

yeah , amazing um , and that was a . That's

1:18:13

a huge , that's a whole

1:18:15

new operation that you're taking on

1:18:17

. There's an ecosystem around what

1:18:19

we actually do . Yes , yeah . There

1:18:22

truly is , and

1:18:25

yeah , and that role is just getting bigger

1:18:27

. So organisations

1:18:29

just really need to think about that with

1:18:32

the people that they're hiring . But , yeah , there's a huge . There's

1:18:34

huge around sustainability

1:18:37

and things like that .

1:18:39

Yeah , and in that regard , it's a , and in that regard , it's only

1:18:41

going to become even more involved as as companies

1:18:43

have bigger drivers now to focus on things

1:18:46

like sustainability as part of employee

1:18:48

value proposition too , like people want to work

1:18:50

for companies that give a fuck , basically

1:18:52

about the environment , about community

1:18:55

, about their people yeah , and

1:18:57

it's hard for companies to do that without that guidance

1:18:59

.

1:18:59

Yeah .

1:19:00

I don't envy a lot of businesses out there

1:19:02

for having to try and tick all these

1:19:04

boxes , but do more than that like actually

1:19:06

care yeah . But there's a lot to

1:19:08

be doing , and to do that without the right guidance

1:19:11

, I think , is a . You know you're cruising

1:19:13

to a pretty bad place .

1:19:15

Yeah , I agree and

1:19:19

I think , with the , like I say , this gen z generation that are kind of coming in

1:19:21

now into the workforce , it's it's actually I found

1:19:23

it the most challenging over the last few years because

1:19:26

they do want to work for really purpose-led companies

1:19:28

that align with their own values

1:19:30

and it's not just about salary

1:19:32

anymore yeah it really isn't yeah

1:19:34

they want to know how you're going to progress them .

1:19:36

How's your , what's your company doing to like

1:19:38

socially impact the

1:19:40

environment or society and and

1:19:42

what's my role going to play in

1:19:44

that it's a really good point it's what people care

1:19:47

about now , and your company has

1:19:49

got to showcase that yeah , because meaningful

1:19:51

work is one of the four pillars that I talk about

1:19:53

when I when I discuss evp , and

1:19:56

it's not just meaningful work . Is that show me what the

1:19:58

contribution I'm making to the company ? Show

1:20:00

me the contribution that the company and the work I'm

1:20:02

doing is making to community ?

1:20:04

exactly or the environment or the world

1:20:06

in general yeah .

1:20:08

I love it . I love it . I love speaking

1:20:10

to the next generation of people coming through because

1:20:12

I'm also dealing with hiring managers that are

1:20:15

not that way inclined and do . Still

1:20:17

, they quite arch , quite archaic mindset

1:20:19

and we're paying salaries . But first off they

1:20:21

should be thankful that we've

1:20:23

got the opportunities , which I think is a very

1:20:25

wrong mindset to get into when you're hiring in general

1:20:28

. But yeah , I'm noticing

1:20:30

the generational divide now between a

1:20:32

generation that still believes it's all

1:20:34

about the money we're giving them opportunity they

1:20:36

should be thankful for us and then

1:20:38

the next generation coming through and asking

1:20:40

so many more questions .

1:20:42

Yeah .

1:20:43

And that means a recruiter's job is evolving too

1:20:45

, because if you don't know about the business and the clients

1:20:47

and the companies you're recruiting for , people

1:20:50

will not buy into that either . So amazing

1:20:53

.

1:20:53

It's exciting . It is exciting , yeah , I'm excited

1:20:56

by it .

1:21:03

I've been more excited about working in and around this space . There's seen it . There's a there's

1:21:05

overlaps between what we do , carly , but not you know you've got a much

1:21:07

vaster role than and what I do , but I I'm more excited about my job now

1:21:10

and the types of roles I can put out

1:21:12

there and the types of organizations and what they're doing for their

1:21:14

people than I ever have been yeah and

1:21:16

the gulf between those that invest in it and those

1:21:18

that don't yeah , so clear to see yeah , yeah

1:21:20

so it makes my life easier if I know what

1:21:22

you haven't . You've not got this in place . You're not offering

1:21:24

your people this . I can just yeah , okay

1:21:27

yeah , I can't do it for you then yeah what

1:21:29

advice would you give to people so say

1:21:31

there is someone listening . That

1:21:33

was you know around your age when you

1:21:35

started moving into this space for the first time , into that

1:21:38

stonemasons ? What advice would you give them at

1:21:40

the very start of their career in

1:21:42

this kind of world If they want to move into

1:21:44

a career that focuses on people and culture

1:21:46

and making workplaces better , any

1:21:49

advice ?

1:21:50

Oh , that's a really tough one .

1:21:52

I know I like putting people on the spot .

1:21:53

I think it's tough as well because , like you , just want to

1:21:55

come out with something really inspirational it doesn't have

1:21:57

to be profound if

1:22:00

you want to be a mermaid , go for it . That's what

1:22:02

I'm gonna say . No , um , I think it's

1:22:06

just listen

1:22:09

, listen to your intuition . Um

1:22:12

, it's really hard to

1:22:14

know who you are . So you

1:22:16

know , invest in mentorship is probably

1:22:19

one of the um

1:22:21

biggest things . Actually , I would say I did a post

1:22:23

about it on LinkedIn . But , yeah

1:22:25

, definitely I always had , I've always had

1:22:28

that . I've had various kind of mentors throughout

1:22:30

my um , throughout my career , at

1:22:32

different stages , my first one being

1:22:34

my dad , um , and I

1:22:37

just even in that sense , yeah , if you have a family

1:22:39

member or someone who can

1:22:41

really support you on your journey

1:22:43

, I think that's something . That's that's kind of really

1:22:45

important . But community is everything

1:22:47

and if you can get yourself , you know

1:22:50

, I do get messages from um

1:22:52

, from people who are starting out in their careers

1:22:54

, on LinkedIn , um , and they

1:22:56

ask for my time and . I'll give them my

1:22:58

time , so don't think that

1:23:00

people aren't going to give you your time . So

1:23:02

yeah , community is everything at

1:23:05

that early stage , um , when you , when

1:23:07

you want to sort of surround yourself

1:23:10

in this new future of work . So yeah

1:23:13

, I would definitely that probably be my my bit

1:23:15

of a bit .

1:23:16

I love that you really warmed up into that answer . It

1:23:20

wasn't at all . No , it's brilliant and I think it's

1:23:22

a really good point . I one of the biggest

1:23:24

things I think I could have benefited

1:23:26

from is having a mentor

1:23:29

. I felt like I had some when I was working in

1:23:31

the agency I started in . I

1:23:33

don't think I did . I don't . I should have gone

1:23:35

for someone external and oh yeah

1:23:38

, go for someone external , definitely yeah exactly

1:23:40

because at an earlier age as well , you

1:23:42

also just don't understand the importance or the impact a

1:23:44

mentor can make . Now , after running this

1:23:46

business , I've had maybe three or four that yeah

1:23:48

mentor me on different things . Yes , plus therapy

1:23:51

but all these things help holistically

1:23:53

yeah um , so I think if I

1:23:55

discovered that when I was younger I'm

1:23:58

not saying like it's not a goal to be further on

1:24:00

than where I am now , but maybe I would have known

1:24:03

myself a bit better or a bit earlier , let's

1:24:05

say than I do now .

1:24:05

Yeah , that would have been nice , I agree , I

1:24:08

agree , um , and no question

1:24:10

is kind of too stupid . When you're sort

1:24:12

of talking to a mentor , you use them

1:24:14

to talk about their experiences

1:24:16

for sure . And if you are in a company and

1:24:19

you want that kind of internal mentor

1:24:21

, use them for your own progression in that company

1:24:24

for sure , use them really well , yeah

1:24:26

um , so yeah okay , cheers

1:24:29

for that , carly , right , we're done .

1:24:31

Okay , I do have um

1:24:33

a closing tradition on the podcast . Okay , do you know it ? I love this because I

1:24:35

put people on the spot . I'm like this is where I find

1:24:37

out if anyone's listened on the spot . I'm like this is where I

1:24:39

find out if anyone's listened to the whole episode and

1:24:41

it's fine , um that , the closing

1:24:43

tradition . So I'm assuming you've listened to

1:24:45

the diary of a ceo with stephen bartlett . Have

1:24:47

you ever listened to any of those ? yes , yes so it's

1:24:49

nothing to do . He doesn't give uh

1:24:52

ask the question , but on his podcast he

1:24:54

he gets the previous guest to leave

1:24:56

a question for the next guest oh , okay

1:24:58

now I don't do that because I

1:25:00

think that's copyrighted , um , but

1:25:02

what I do do is ask my mum to

1:25:06

leave a question for the guest . Now , mum

1:25:08

has played a big role in my marketing because

1:25:10

I don't have much money to do it , so mum's played

1:25:12

a big role in my marketing for my recruitment

1:25:14

agency when I first started out . So mum

1:25:17

has left you a question on a voice note that

1:25:19

I have no idea what it is now

1:25:21

.

1:25:21

Mum obviously remembers you from being I was gonna

1:25:23

say friend , at school I used to come around to your

1:25:25

house like and hang out with Luke .

1:25:27

Yeah , so she remembers you well , so

1:25:29

she's left oh god now . So

1:25:31

I do give her a bio and what the conversation

1:25:33

is . So I don't think she's going to be asking anything

1:25:36

about you coming around to the house when we were

1:25:38

teenagers . But , let me get

1:25:40

this now . I'm going to play you the voice note Again

1:25:42

. I don't listen to this . Hopefully

1:25:44

it's something semi-related to what you do , but

1:25:46

we'll see . Hi , carly .

1:25:49

What's your favourite team building exercise

1:25:51

with the companies that you work with ? Thanks

1:25:54

very much .

1:25:56

Bless her . So

1:26:00

my mum's name's Lisa , just in case you didn't remember . I do remember , but yeah

1:26:03

, I don't know if that's the sort of thing that you cover in your role . I would imagine it's something where you delegate it

1:26:05

or outsource it to someone else . But team building

1:26:07

is that even still a thing ?

1:26:08

yeah , I do have a favorite one actually I do

1:26:10

do a few , yeah , okay um , I

1:26:12

do also outsource it for leadership , but

1:26:14

um , yeah , one of my favorite ones is

1:26:17

um petra kucha okay

1:26:20

um . So it's a japanese

1:26:22

um , it's a japanese team building

1:26:24

exercise , and what you have to do

1:26:26

is it's really great for um

1:26:29

hybrid remote working

1:26:31

companies um , because you

1:26:33

can do it online or you can do it in person

1:26:36

. But what you have to do is you have , sort of say

1:26:38

, 15 slides and on each

1:26:40

slide you have a picture

1:26:42

and you have 10 seconds to describe

1:26:44

what that picture is , and it's just a really great way

1:26:47

for people to understand a bit

1:26:49

about you and who you are and sort

1:26:51

of break the ice okay , um in

1:26:53

um , in any sort of particular

1:26:55

setting , and you can ask any question on the

1:26:57

slide . Yeah , um , so

1:26:59

that's probably one of my favorite ones

1:27:01

. You we used to use it all the time actually influence

1:27:04

, oh wow , nice , okay um and

1:27:06

it's a really great way to get to know someone

1:27:08

, know their story , know their passions um

1:27:11

and how they work .

1:27:12

So yeah , it's definitely one of my favorite ones brilliant

1:27:14

. Do you mind if we put a link to that or

1:27:17

a ?

1:27:17

way of describing that exercise .

1:27:19

Yeah , that'd be quite handy to put in the description as

1:27:21

well yeah , that's fine .

1:27:22

Okay , no , that's a really good one .

1:27:23

It's quite a sensible question from mum for once as

1:27:25

well , because there are some curveballs that she throws

1:27:28

out um . Carly , it

1:27:30

has been a genuine pleasure this conversation

1:27:32

. Thank you for being so open and transparent as well

1:27:34

thank you and it's been lovely .

1:27:35

Thanks for asking me on oh , you're very welcome .

1:27:37

All right , I'll speak to you soon .

1:27:38

Thank , you Speak to you soon .