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Annie Sargent: This is Join Us in France, episode 491,
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quatre cent quatre-vingt-onze.
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Bonjour, I'm Annie Sargent, and Join Us in France is the podcast where we take
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a conversational journey through the beauty, culture, and flavors of France.
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Today, I bring you a conversation with Elyse Rivin of Toulouse Guided Walks about
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the life and legacy of Maurice Ravel, one of France's most esteemed composers,
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whose works continue to enchant and inspire music lovers around the globe.
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For anyone with a passion for French culture and music, understanding
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Ravel's contributions is not just a pleasure, it's a necessity.
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His compositions, including the ever popular Bolero and the intricate
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Piano Concerto in G Major, showcase a unique blend of musical innovation,
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technical skill, and a deep infusion of the cultural motifs that make
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French music distinctly enchanting.
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For francophiles, Ravel's music is a gateway to understanding the broader
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cultural movements of early 20th century France, reflecting the artistic literacy
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and social currents of his time.
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Stay tuned as we celebrate the rich musical heritage of Maurice Ravel and
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discover why his legacy is essential for anyone who loves France and its
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artistic contributions to the world.
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This podcast is supported by donors and listeners who buy my tours and services,
1:44
including my Itinerary Consult Service, my GPS self-guided tours of Paris on the
1:50
VoiceMap app, or take a day trip with me around the Southwest in my electric car.
1:55
Only the Southwest though. Somebody asked me this week, if I could do this in Marseille and
2:00
Paris, no, only the Southwest, okay?
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You can browse all of that on my boutique: joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
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Patreon supporters get new episodes as soon as they are ready, and ads free.
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If that sounds good to you, be like them, follow the link in the show notes.
2:20
For the magazine part of the podcast, after my chat with Elyse
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today, I'll share a few thoughts about taking the train in France.
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There's been a lot of conversation about that on the Facebook group for the
2:30
podcast and also on my itinerary calls.
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Bonjour Elyse! Elyse Rivin: Bonjour, Annie. Annie Sargent: We have a composer with us today.
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Elyse Rivin: The first first time, I think.
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Annie Sargent: Yes, it is our first time talking about a composer as far as I know.
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Elyse Rivin: I belive so. We've talked about writers, and we've talked about painters and famous people
3:00
in history, but I don't think we've ever talked about anybody who wrote music.
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Annie Sargent: Yes, and this one is easy to listen to, which is wonderful.
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I will let you take it away, I don't know that much about him.
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I, so this morning I got up and I knew we were going to record about Ravel.
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So Maurice Ravel, you know, 1875 is when he was born.
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And so this is the end of the Romantic kind of period.
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He's pretty much, really easy to listen to, I'm sure all of you have
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heard some of his music, even if you're not into classical music.
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And so this morning when I got up, I started listening to Ravel
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and I've been listening to Ravel all morning and it's lovely stuff.
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Elyse Rivin: Lovely stuff. It really is lovely stuff. Yes.
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It is very interesting too, I was thinking as I was doing some research and making
3:47
some show notes, we've talked a lot about painters and artists and writers.
3:52
This is also someone who showed a great gift for music, in this
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case music, at an early age.
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It's like there's a whole collection of these people who
4:01
were talented from the beginning.
4:03
Annie Sargent: Well, I think one of the important things in life is to
4:08
recognize what your kids are good at and then encourage them in that direction.
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And some people do that well, and some people don't.
4:15
Elyse Rivin: That is very true. So, Maurice Ravel he was born actually in the Basque country.
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He was born in Saint-Jean-de-Luz. But as a baby, a little baby, his family moved to Paris and that is where he
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basically, he grew up and that is where it really he lived for most of his life.
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And interestingly enough, his parents who were not artists, but were very interested
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in the arts, were interested in music, had friends who were in the arts, were
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apparently very, very cultivated people, very modern for the time that he was
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born 1875, which is really when, think about it, that in 1874 was the first
4:55
time the word impressionism was used, was one year before his birth, right?
5:00
Then that was of course in relation to the painting by Monet.
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And so the last quarter of the 19th century is a period of great
5:08
change and a lot of creativity and invention in all the arts.
5:13
Annie Sargent: Right, right. Elyse Rivin: And particularly painting and music too.
5:17
And of course, someone who was, who became an associate, but was
5:21
a little bit older was Debussy. Annie Sargent: Sure.
5:23
Elyse Rivin: And eventually, someone I know you love a lot, Gabriel Fauré, who
5:28
a little bit later on in the story of Ravel was actually one of his teachers.
5:32
Annie Sargent: Right. Yes. Fauré, if you don't know the music of Gabriel Fauré, do
5:37
yourself a favor and listen to it. It's absolutely wonderful.
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Elyse Rivin: It's what Annie loves, Annie loves it. So Maurice was basically brought up in this very encouraging atmosphere,
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if you want to call it that. And his mom, even though apparently she didn't have any Spanish
5:52
ancestors, loved Spanish music and played Spanish music in the house.
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And he grew up listening to Spanish melodies a lot, melodies from Andalusia,
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connected to, I suppose, I can hear them in my head, you know, basically, all
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of those strange rhythms and melodies that come from the South of Spain.
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And he was interested in all of these kinds of musics that were not part
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of the classical tradition in France.
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And so his parents allowed him to start having piano lessons at the age of six.
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Annie Sargent: It's a very good time to Elyse Rivin: start. It's a very good time to start.
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He apparently wanted them. He was really happy to have them.
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And at the age of 12, he began his first classes in musical composition.
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This is already very impressive as far as I'm concerned, because as much
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as I have spent years in the visual arts, music is a mystery to me.
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I love it, but I can't produce a note on key and the idea that people can, and
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that they can write music, to me it's just like a miracle of the gods, you know?
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I mean, this is just... it's wonderful, you know.
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So at the age of 12 he began composition, and two years later in
7:00
1889, he entered the conservatory.
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Annie Sargent: Yes, which is normal. I mean, in France, if you are good at music and if you're, you know,
7:09
motivated to learn music, the normal course is to enter the conservatory.
7:13
And they do normal school, so they will do their French, Math, History, all of
7:19
that, but they also do a lot of music.
7:21
Elyse Rivin: And it's very interesting because he did stay in the conservatory,
7:25
actually for several years, but apparently, he, I don't know if he
7:29
wrote it down or it was simply that he's told his parents and people
7:32
around him, he found it a little bit discouraging because he thought
7:36
it was too conservative, basically.
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He was interested even at an early age in experimentation.
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And obviously you have to have the base, you have to have the base for composition.
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You have to have the base for different ways of putting music together.
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But he was at odds with a lot of what was going on in the conservatory.
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And at one point he left, and he actually went and studied with Gabriel Fauré,
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who was at the time considered to be the greatest living French composer.
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Annie Sargent: They were right. Elyse Rivin: They were right. And interestingly enough, Fauré found Ravel to be very interesting
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because of his new ideas.
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It must have been interesting for Fauré, I don't know anything really about
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him, but to have a student who was inventive, I mean, I can imagine it, I
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transpose it into the visual arts and I can just say, yes, that's wonderful.
8:25
You have somebody who has an idea that they want to do something.
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It's not just copying other people, that kind of thing.
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Annie Sargent: Which, I mean, but it's okay if a young student starts
8:34
by copying other people, right?
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Right. But then you have to sort of break out.
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Somewhere you have to do your own thing, you know.
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You have to find your own voice. That's the right term for it, to find your own voice.
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And so apparently, Ravel, because of this, because of this attitude that was a little
8:50
bit off from what was considered to be even mainstream at the time, he was very,
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very frustrated because four times he presented himself as a candidate for the
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Prix de Rome, which is the prize, which is a prize, I believe it's in painting,
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and it's in writing, and it's in music.
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The Prix de Rome. And four times he came in second.
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Oh. Elyse Rivin: He never won it. Strangely enough, he was never the top, he was never considered the top, but...
9:16
but, by the time he was in his early twenties, he was starting to
9:20
become well known for his music.
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Annie Sargent: Wow, that's impressive. Elyse Rivin: And he was known both as a composer and as a pianist.
9:27
He was a magnificent pianist. I don't know, since he died in 1937, there must be some recordings of him playing.
9:35
I don't know if there are. Annie Sargent: Probably, yeah.
9:38
Elyse Rivin: Some very early scratchy, you know, phonograph ones, it
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would be interesting to find one. He wound up having a group of people who basically gravitated around him
9:47
in Paris because he was an odd fellow.
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I mean, he was, if you see pictures of him, he was rather interesting looking.
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He kind of reminds me of a little bit of a ferret.
9:57
You know, he was very small, he was only 5.3, which means
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he was, really not big at all. My height.
10:03
Well, you and I. You think you're five feet, I don't think, I think you're taller than
10:07
that, but he weighed 48 kilos. You and I together, if we took off, you know, one arm would weigh
10:13
48 kilos, you know, it's like... Annie Sargent: Yeah, yeah.
10:15
I'm beyond that. Elyse Rivin: I mean, he was really small, and he, apparently his
10:19
entire life was just his music.
10:21
He was never in his entire life known to have any romantic relationships, men or
10:26
women, nothing, his life, yeah, nothing.
10:29
There's no scuttlebutt, there's no gossip. There's some suggestion that maybe he had some tendencies,
10:36
but he never acted on them. Basically, he was really so devoted to his music and that was the center of his life.
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So, I read a whole bunch of different articles and they said, no, no, nobody knows of any particular romantic connection.
10:48
Annie Sargent: Now, when you said tendencies, you mean perhaps he preferred males?
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Elyse Rivin: Perhaps he preferred men and didn't want to act on it.
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I mean, it's not clear because certainly he was gravitating in a world
10:58
where it was perfectly acceptable.
11:00
The end of the 19th century, beginning of 20th century, the
11:02
bohemian life of Paris was not a life where you had to be correct.
11:07
I mean, if you think about what people like Picasso and all of
11:10
his painter friends did, I mean, they did just about everything.
11:13
I mean, you know, we're talking about sleeping with anybody
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you want to, taking drugs. I mean, it was very, very, very free and bohemian.
11:21
Annie Sargent: Right. but at the same time, people were punished for homosexuality in France.
11:28
Perhaps he didn't feel as free as, you know, yeah.
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Elyse Rivin: In any event, it apparently there was never really a
11:34
lot of gossip about him in that way. So it's kind of became the mystery of his life.
11:39
Was it just music? Or was he timid?
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Was, you know, what the reasons were? In any event, he wound up having this enormous group of musicians,
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composers, and artists around him.
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And they called themselves the Apaches. Annie Sargent: Oh, why?
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Elyse Rivin: Well, the term Apache, which of course in French would be
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apache, which was of course taken from having seen Wild Bill, what's his name?
12:03
The Buffalo Bill. You know, he came through Paris and France doing his show with bringing,
12:08
you know, Native Americans with him. The term of course got picked up by the French and it was used to describe the bad
12:15
kids, like delinquents in neighborhoods. That was the original.
12:18
Annie Sargent: Yes. That's what I know the term as.
12:21
Elyse Rivin: So apparently, because these were the bad,
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bad boys and girls of the arts.
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Annie Sargent: Oh, I see. Elyse Rivin: That's what they decided to call themselves.
12:31
And so they literally put out that they were the Apaches of the arts.
12:35
I mean, this was, this was their thing. And he was the center of it.
12:39
Annie Sargent: Oh, so he had plenty of social life.
12:41
Elyse Rivin: Yes. Oh, yes. He had social life, and apparently up until the very end, when he
12:45
was too sick to go out, he had a very active night social life.
12:50
I mean, he spent his nights going to clubs, to concerts, he was never, it
12:54
was basically a guy who was never home, you know, it was one of those, you know.
12:58
Annie Sargent: That's interesting that it was only socially,
13:01
but not a private, Qui sait?
13:04
Can you imagine we don't Oh, oh.
13:07
No. Elyse Rivin: But among the people that hung out with him were Stravinsky,
13:12
who of course Igor Stravinsky, who is really, also a major composer, a little
13:16
bit younger than him, and Debussy, who's a teeny little bit older, but who,
13:21
of course, is the other composer, the other French composer associated with
13:25
what is called impressionist music.
13:28
Annie Sargent: Can you imagine hanging out with Stravinsky, and Debussy, and Ravel?
13:31
Oh, amazing.
13:35
Elyse Rivin: Absolutely amazing, you know. They were aware of the fact that they were considered to be impressionists,
13:40
they weren't insulted by the term, I mean, for them, even though they had
13:44
very rigorous training, of course, you know, in the construction of their
13:47
music and everything, the idea came from, of course, the painters, the
13:51
idea that it was mood, there was a lot of mood in the music and that there
13:54
was a certain fluidity in the music.
13:56
Which of course, if you listen to Debussy, certainly you really
14:00
understand right away, you know? Annie Sargent: Right, it's easy to pick out.
14:03
Have you ever played a thing called the Piano Puzzler?
14:07
Elyse Rivin: No. Annie Sargent: Okay. So this is a great thing.
14:09
It's an NPR show of sorts where you have a pianist that will play a famous tune
14:17
in the style of, he will write a famous tune, rewrite it in the style of somebody.
14:23
And you have to guess who the style was and what the piece was.
14:28
Yes. And so, we often do this, with my husband, and Debussy is really
14:34
easy to recognize as a composer.
14:37
Ravel, not as much. Elyse Rivin: Right. Not as much.
14:39
He's harder to guess because he had a bigger kind of palette of moods, you know.
14:47
I agree with you. I mean, I like Debussy, actually, there was a period where I listened to him a
14:51
lot, but it's pretty much all similar.
14:54
It's kind of like a Debussy, whatever that is, you know?
14:58
A strong signature. Right. Annie Sargent: He had strong signature.
15:01
Let's put it that way. Elyse Rivin: You're absolutely right. And Ravel, of course, was, I think he, it sounds like he was someone
15:07
constantly interested in innovation and trying out new kinds of music and
15:12
moving into mixing things together.
15:15
And so this group of Apaches, they basically hung out together and
15:19
it started in 1901 and it lasted until the beginning of World War I.
15:24
So that's a fair amount of time. I mean, you know, if you think about it, it's 13, just about 13 years or so.
15:28
And interestingly enough, Ravel, who by the outbreak of World War I, was not a
15:33
youngster anymore, he was 40, 40 going on 41, he wanted to join up as a soldier.
15:40
He was apparently extremely patriotic and he was refused because of his size, and
15:45
because he was considered to be too frail.
15:47
And he insisted so much on entering into the fight, it's kind of hard to imagine
15:54
this man who spent his life with music wanting so badly to go in and fight.
15:58
But in order to be part of the war effort, it took him until 1916 and then he was
16:04
enrolled as a truck ambulance driver.
16:08
Annie Sargent: Hmm, interesting. Elyse Rivin: Which of course made him feel like he was participating
16:12
somehow in the war effort. Which he was, except that by the beginning of 1917, he got
16:19
dysentery, and was demobilized.
16:22
Annie Sargent: Right, sent home. Elyse Rivin: And sent home.
16:24
And so that was the end of his military career.
16:27
It probably discouraged him a little bit, but it also probably saved him.
16:31
Annie Sargent: Right. It's amazing that somebody in his forties who could have easily avoided the draft,
16:37
or going to war at all, just wanted to.
16:40
And if you imagine somebody who's 45 kilos, some really frail guy, saying I
16:46
want to go to war, it takes some cojones.
16:50
Elyse Rivin: It does. It really does. This is interesting though, right after World War I, now, Ravel is
16:56
really well known, I mean, he's a famous composer, and famous pianist.
17:01
So the war is over, and he gets into a philosophical debate with Debussy among
17:08
others, because after World War I, Debussy decided that he only wanted to play what
17:15
he considered to be patriotic music.
17:18
Annie Sargent: Right, so there was a problem with German music, obviously.
17:22
Elyse Rivin: And of course, at the time, many, many of the composers right
17:26
through the 19th century and into the 20th were in fact Austrian or German.
17:30
And, so Ravel and Debussy had a falling out because in spite of
17:34
being a part of the war, he believed that music transcended differences.
17:40
Annie Sargent: Yeah, that's a tough one. I, knowing me, I would have a hard time performing music from a country that
17:49
just tried to beat you out of existence.
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Elyse Rivin: I have more of an ambivalent attitude as an artist,
17:57
I'd say, about all of that. So I will not say exactly, but I really kind of agree with Ravel.
18:02
I do, unless somebody really puts out their extreme patriotism, you know,
18:07
their political positions that are really extreme, I really have a tendency to
18:12
believe that art should transcend these kinds of nationalistic kinds of things.
18:18
In any event, Ravel encouraged Schoenberg, who was Austrian, and Bartók, who
18:22
was Hungarian, because these were, of course, the new next wave of very,
18:27
very inventive and very, very modern composers with atonal music and things
18:32
coming out of really the kind of stuff that Ravel had, had developed, you know.
18:36
Annie Sargent: Yes. So, Bartok is also easy to pick out because, you know, he introduced
18:42
a whole lot of new types of sounds that we weren't used to hearing.
18:46
Elyse Rivin: Yeah, as well, some people still won't want to listen to Bartók, you
18:49
have to really like that kind of music.
18:51
Annie Sargent: I think it's nice. I, some of it I like, actually.
18:55
So, in 1920, this is Mr.
18:57
Maurice Ravel. He is nominated for the Legion of Honor...
19:01
Uh huh. Elyse Rivin: And he turns it down. Annie Sargent: Why?
19:03
Elyse Rivin: He said that he will not take a prize, it's interesting considering that
19:08
as a young man, he wanted so desperately to have the Prix de Rome, right?
19:13
He said that the Legion of Honor was a government prize, and this is, I've
19:19
translated the quote, it says that no government or prince is going to decorate
19:22
him because that means they have the right to judge whether his work is good or not.
19:28
Annie Sargent: Oh dear, yes, okay.
19:30
Elyse Rivin: So hoity do do. So he did not take his Legion of Honor.
19:34
He refused it. Never got it.
19:36
Annie Sargent: That's a bit much, huh?
19:39
Yeah. Elyse Rivin: Very, very proud man, I'd say, you know, I mean, interesting,
19:44
this idea, you get that today in things like the prizes for painting prizes,
19:48
for acting, every once in a while you get somebody who goes, well, you can't
19:52
tell me whether it's good or not. That's, it's a very interesting kind of attitude to have.
19:56
I mean, it's kind of... Annie Sargent: Well, it's a fact that in the arts, your
20:01
productions are going to be judged. How do you not?
20:04
And whether it's the arts or anything else, like if you build houses,
20:08
people will have an idea of whether they like your houses or not.
20:11
And if you're a gardener, do they like your garden or not, you know.
20:17
Elyse Rivin: I've known other people, I mean, or I've read about other people in
20:20
different forms of the arts, including architecture, who have also refused prizes
20:24
for the same exact reason, you know. It's like, don't tell me whether my work is good or not, but it's a very particular
20:30
kind of stance to take, you know. Annie Sargent: I do know that he was very, he was not super prolific as a composer.
20:37
So I think he only published about 60 pieces his whole life, which is not a lot.
20:42
There are composers who, you know, thousand and then some.
20:46
And it's because he would just agonize over every note and he
20:49
wanted things to be just right.
20:52
So clearly, he had high standards when it came to his work, but not wanting it
20:58
to be, you know, kind of judged or...
21:01
Elyse Rivin: It's interesting. It's like he was his own judge and you would listen to him or not, but
21:06
nobody is going to decide wether... it's interesting position to take right?
21:10
Annie Sargent: Worth of a prize or not. Hmm.
21:13
Interesting. Elyse Rivin: So that was 1920.
21:15
And then in 1928, so 1928, let's see, he is 25, 35, 45, 53, in 1928, he has
21:23
his dream wish come true, and he goes on a grand tour of the United States.
21:30
In the interim, between 1900 and 1920, he already was aware of American
21:36
music, and mostly Afro-American music.
21:40
He had been able to hear some music that came from the States with the people
21:44
who would move to France and move to Europe, especially after World War I.
21:48
And so he began this enormous, enormous tour of the United States,
21:52
both as a pianist, as a composer, and as a conductor of orchestra.
21:58
So, he did the Grand Tour, although he did spend a good deal of time in New
22:02
York, and while he was in New York, and I think he spent just about the whole year
22:07
on this visit to the United States, he spent just about every single night going
22:12
to jazz clubs, to ragtime, to listen to ragtime music, to jazz music, to blues
22:17
music, he spent his nights in Harlem.
22:20
And he became very good friends with someone whose work I love,
22:22
and that is George Gershwin. Annie Sargent: Uh huh.
22:25
There's a lot of similarities between the two, as a matter of fact.
22:28
Elyse Rivin: Right. And Gershwin, of course, who was younger, idolized him apparently.
22:32
I saw a few pictures yesterday, I was looking on internet, and
22:35
they were a whole group of people, including impresarios and everything.
22:38
So they became relatively good friends.
22:41
And there's a story who knows if it's exactly true that at one point
22:44
Gershwin said to Ravel that he wanted to study composition with him.
22:49
Now, in 1928, I don't know exactly how old Gershwin was, but he was already
22:53
making a name for himself as a composer. And Ravel said no.
22:58
And when Gershwin asked why, he said, because if you study composition with me,
23:03
you will wind up being a second rate Ravel instead of being a first rate Gershwin.
23:08
Annie Sargent: Oh, wow. That's a very interesting way to put it.
23:11
Elyse Rivin: I think it's wonderful. I think it's absolutely wonderful.
23:13
Basically, he's saying, you have your own voice, you don't need to study with me to
23:18
continue it, you know, that kind of thing.
23:20
Which I think is just a great quote, you know?
23:22
Annie Sargent: It's very nice. Elyse Rivin: So he returns to Paris, and at that moment, at the very, very
23:29
end of 1928, he's commissioned to write a piece of music for a ballet
23:34
by one of his friends, a Russian ballet dancer named Ida Rubinstein.
23:39
I don't know that much about her, but she was actually the person who made
23:43
the demand on Ravel to write a piece for her, for a ballet she wanted to perform.
23:50
Annie Sargent: So she commissioned a piece. Elyse Rivin: She commissioned a piece.
23:52
And between July and October of 1928, he worked on a piece of music that
23:59
is now considered to be the most played piece of music in the world.
24:03
And that is Bolero. Annie Sargent: Right. I think Bolero and Four Seasons are probably the most
24:08
played music in the world. Elyse Rivin: It's a piece of music that lasts 17 minutes.
24:12
It is based on an Andalusian theme that he remembered from his childhood.
24:18
I don't know much about musical terms, but it says that there's a
24:21
ritournelle in it, which obviously is the way of, I suppose, repetition.
24:27
Annie Sargent: Right, it's a returning pattern. It's a returning pattern and there's just two themes to it.
24:31
And of course it's the same notes over, and over, and over again at different
24:35
rhythms, you know, as fast and slow. And then it ends in a crescendo.
24:39
And also he adds instruments.
24:42
So different instruments take the melody and they sound quite different, you know?
24:48
So it adds to the interest and you have this drum the whole time.
24:55
Elyse Rivin: It's, hypnotic. Annie Sargent: Yes, it is.
24:57
Elyse Rivin: Absolutely hypnotic. The premiere of Ballero was on the 22nd of November at the Opera Garnier.
25:03
Apparently, it was a packed house. And most of the people apparently did not know what to make of this piece of music.
25:11
There were a few people who said he was out of his mind, but I
25:15
don't know if at the time people actually walked out or not, you know.
25:20
Annie Sargent: I don't think so. Elyse Rivin: I don't think so, but some people actually wrote afterwards
25:23
and said: What was he doing? What was he thinking?
25:26
But for most of the people there, they thought it was fabulous and it
25:29
was an enormous and huge success.
25:32
It was very controversial as a piece of music. It was not like anything anybody had ever performed before.
25:37
And the irony, of course, is that in the end, at the end of his
25:42
career, he really did not consider it to be the most important piece
25:45
of music that he had written. But it is the piece of music that he is absolutely the most known for.
25:52
Annie Sargent: Well, that's the thing, he wrote so much, like he wrote a lot
25:55
of piano concertos, he wrote things for solo pianists, that are just beautiful.
26:03
And yet he's known for the most approachable piece that he ever
26:07
wrote, which I happen to like.
26:09
Yeah, so it's just a personal choice.
26:13
I think it's a beautiful ballet.
26:15
I've seen some beautiful dancing to it.
26:17
Elyse Rivin: I actually had a chance a number of years ago, this is a while ago,
26:21
thanks to my sister, one of my sisters, my sister Lucille, who was living in
26:25
Paris, and she got tickets for us to see the Béjart performance of Bolero.
26:32
And we were in the second row and I will never ever forget that night ever ever.
26:38
We got the sweat on us, you know, it was fabulous.
26:43
It is so hypnotic and so it puts you into a trance as a piece of music you know, I
26:49
mean it really is just seeing these bodies swaying back and forth and everything.
26:53
It's fabulous. But I think I can see why some people really, really would not like it.
26:58
But the irony of course, is that it became an absolute international success.
27:03
And they say, you know, who knows if it's true, that an example of Bolero
27:08
is played every 10 minutes somewhere in the world, and considering that it lasts
27:12
17 minutes, this is good, this is good for chat to figure out if this is true
27:16
or not, that basically it means that there's never a moment when Bolero is
27:19
not being played somewhere in the world.
27:22
Annie Sargent: Oh, I'm sure that's true. I'm sure that's true.
27:24
And also, they've made so many different versions of it, like with all
27:28
sorts, like some of them sound awful.
27:30
It's like some Casio from the sixties sound, it's awful.
27:35
And then some of them sound really, really good.
27:38
So it just depends on who's performing it.
27:40
Elyse Rivin: It definitely does. He also did very interestingly, he wrote two piano concertos for a left hand.
27:47
And it's because he had a friend who lost his right hand in the war in
27:52
World War I, he was a pianist, he asked him to write music for him that
27:57
he could play just with his left hand. Annie Sargent: It's the Concerto for Left Hand, is what it's called.
28:01
I don't Elyse Rivin: know if I've ever heard it. Annie Sargent: I've heard some of it.
28:04
It's part of the things I was listening to this morning.
28:07
I wouldn't say it's my favorite of his, but it's very interesting.
28:10
And it's wonderful that he took the challenge to write a piece
28:14
mostly for a one-handed pianist.
28:17
I mean, that is just not something you do, you know, and as someone who was
28:21
as famous as he was, he could have just turned it down, you know, but he did it.
28:25
Elyse Rivin: He did it. Yeah, I guess he was one of those people, it sounds like he loved
28:29
the challenge, no matter what. I mean, this was basically, he considered that all music was interesting,
28:35
and he was trying most of his life to figure out how to incorporate
28:38
different rhythms, different patterns of music into his own compositions.
28:43
And so basically that is what he did, he performed and composed for over 40 years.
28:50
He eventually bought a house in the suburbs, about 30 kilometers outside of
28:54
Paris, in a town called Monfort l’Amaury.
28:58
But he still went to Paris all the time to go to the nightclubs, to
29:02
see live music, to hang out with his friends, to see the dancers.
29:06
His life was the nightlife of Paris.
29:09
And in 1933, he got hit by a car.
29:14
And what happened was, and this is one of those ironies, but it's not
29:17
just with him that they discovered when they took him to the hospital,
29:20
that he was having, he actually had an incurable neurological problem.
29:26
They didn't put any name on it, I've never found anything that said what it
29:28
was, but apparently it kind of got set off by it or got worse because of getting
29:34
hit in the head in this car accident.
29:37
And he had to stop. He stopped composing.
29:39
And he stopped playing because it probably affected his hands
29:43
as well, his mental capacities. And he died in 1937 just a day or two after having had a surgery to
29:51
see if they could actually repair something to make him feel better.
29:54
So he was not an old man. He was only 62 when he died.
29:58
Annie Sargent: Wow. It's impressive to me that because, I mean, there are a lot of composers
30:03
who wrote a lot of things because they felt compelled to, you know,
30:07
they had ideas every five seconds. But composing music is very difficult.
30:11
My father in law is a composer and has been commissioned to
30:14
write many pieces and so forth. And it's not an easy process.
30:19
It is really a lot of work is involved because they need to make sure that
30:23
all the instruments can perform this, they show off what the instrument
30:27
can do is, is what they're trying to do, whatever the theme of the
30:30
music or the tune of the music is.
30:33
It's a lot of work and finding inspiration for new music is, it's not easy.
30:39
it's like everything has been written already, it seems.
30:43
Elyse Rivin: Well, yeah, I mean, again equating it to the equivalent
30:46
in painting, for instance, it's exactly, you could say the same thing.
30:49
You have to figure out how to make something new that
30:52
hasn't been done before. I mean, that's what's so amazing about it.
30:55
When Ravel died, there was already, you know, the much more into the atonal music
31:01
and other kinds of music that come up.
31:03
Of course, there's been a lot of music that's was created
31:06
through the 20th century. But really, he is considered to be one of the two greatest innovators
31:12
of modern music, introducing things that become part of what is known
31:16
as modern music, and that was what he basically dedicated his life to.
31:21
Annie Sargent: Yeah, and it's really interesting because his music,
31:24
it's like it's in constant motion.
31:27
It flows kind of like water, you know, it just never stops.
31:31
And I think it's really good to listen to when you're trying to work and
31:36
concentrate on what you're doing, because it's always a satisfying pattern and
31:41
your brain likes to have a satisfying pattern to hang on to while your hands
31:46
are typing or doing something else.
31:49
I really like to listen to some of his pieces while working, not while sleeping.
31:54
Because another thing he did is, he took very well known tunes, but well
32:00
known to like the South of Spain or well known to some African group or
32:05
something, and he would speed them up and make that the theme of his music.
32:09
So he had a lot of purposeful research into finding new melodies, you know?
32:16
It was still melodic kind of work, whereas the people that followed
32:20
him threw the melody out of the door and you were like, kicked it to the
32:25
curb, and we're like, it doesn't have to be melodic at all, which, hmm...
32:30
maybe not, maybe it does. Yeah.
32:32
Yeah. It's really interesting to me that his music has lived on despite the
32:37
fact that, you know, I think somebody asked him about the Bolero and he said,
32:41
yeah, it's the best piece I've ever written, except there's no music in it.
32:45
And what he meant is... Elyse Rivin: It's there to put you into a trance, I think.
32:48
Annie Sargent: Yeah, but there is plenty of music in it. And I think it's the introduction to a lot of people to classical music, to,
32:55
you know, not pop, not easy listen stuff, just like you, I remember vividly watching
33:02
Bolero and Béjart, not in person, on TV.
33:07
Man, that was just, that was a performance.
33:11
That was like, it's not something you forget.
33:13
You know, so it's well deserved that he sticks out in people's minds.
33:17
I get it. I think he's a genius.
33:20
And he wrote some pieces that were a bit edgy as well, he was at the, kind
33:24
of, at the cusp of big change, but he's most famous for a Bolero that is
33:30
not all that challenging, you know.
33:33
Elyse Rivin: It's just fascinating, you know, that he started out really coming
33:36
out of the tradition of a much more traditional romantic kind of classical
33:40
music, and then worked his way into the absolute announcement of modern,
33:45
and contemporary, and experimentation.
33:48
I find him more interesting to listen to, for instance, than Debussy,
33:53
who bores me after 10, 15 minutes. Yeah, I kind of, Debussy is fine for putting me to sleep, you know.
33:59
But I was going to, I just listened to you thinking, for me, the comparison
34:04
in a strange way is with Mozart, and for instance, the Magic Flute,
34:08
there's something about certain pieces of music that stay with
34:12
you forever, and ever, and ever. Annie Sargent: Right, so Mozart was 150 years earlier than Ravel, but it is true
34:21
that they both adhered to the same kind of principles and rules of composition.
34:27
It's just that Ravel introduced tunes from other cultures, other
34:33
places which Mozart didn't.
34:36
And that's where, you know, Ravel and Gershwin are so close because
34:41
they are both very very well trained composers who can write fabulous
34:47
work but are very influenced by jazz.
34:50
Elyse Rivin: Right. Annie Sargent: That makes them really interesting to listen to, you know?
34:54
Yeah. But when you have time, like when you're, when you want to listen to
34:58
music, what do you turn on Elyse? Elyse Rivin: In the car, I listen to a station called FIP.
35:02
Annie Sargent: Yeah, so that's... Elyse Rivin: France Inter Paris. One of the things that's interesting about it is that it's all music.
35:08
I don't like talk radio at all. I just have this thing, I hate talk radio.
35:12
Annie Sargent: Here's a podcaster who doesn't like to talk. Elyse Rivin: I love listening to music in the car, and one of the things
35:17
I found out about the station is that from the beginning they decided
35:21
that they only wanted women as... it's not DJs and announcers.
35:25
Yeah, so they, for a specific reason when it began this, I don't know...
35:29
Annie Sargent: ...soft voices, very smooth.
35:31
Elyse Rivin: And so you have different people, I never know who they are,
35:34
I never pay attention, but like every couple of hours they change.
35:38
So I know that there are different times of the day when it's either
35:41
American stuff like blues and old rock, or it can be classical, or
35:46
it can be this, or it can be that. And so I love the fact that I don't know what I'm going to be listening to, when I
35:53
put on the radio, but it's always music.
35:57
The reason why I don't like listening to talk in the car
35:59
is because I get distracted. See, so the music is kind of like, if I don't have the music on the
36:05
car, I think there's something wrong, what's going on in the car?
36:08
You know. Oh, did I leave the door open? Something is weird, you know?
36:12
But that's what I listen to. And at home I listen a lot, when I'm not using a disc, I have a lot
36:17
of music, but I don't always put the music on, I listen to France
36:20
Musique at certain times of the day.
36:22
And that is, I like too, because I do interviews with singers, and
36:26
composers, and musicians, and I like listening to them talk about
36:30
their art, their music, you know? Yeah, so you do like talks, sometimes?
36:33
Yeah. Yeah. It's just not in the car.
36:35
It's like, ooh, I don't know if I'm going left or right,
36:37
if I'm in the car, you know. Annie Sargent: That's funny, because I can listen to anything in the car.
36:42
Elyse Rivin: I know, but no, at home I can, at home I do, and I will sit
36:45
and listen to an interview with a composer or a musician that I find it
36:49
fascinating, absolutely fascinating. Annie Sargent: And very often what I do is like, if I'm watching a movie, or
36:55
something, and they play something that's interesting, or France Culture, France...
37:01
What's the name of that station? Elyse Rivin: France Musique, France Classique, et France Culture.
37:06
Annie Sargent: Yeah, anyway, I'm not sure we got the names perfectly right, but
37:09
they often play things, like I listen to Franck Ferrand, I really like Franck
37:13
Ferrand as a historian, and in between his historical stuff, he will play part
37:18
of a symphony or a concerto or something.
37:21
And very often, I just pause the thing and I start listening to the whole thing.
37:26
Yeah, and then I'm, perhaps I go back to whatever he was talking
37:28
to, whatever person he was talking about, but perhaps I don't.
37:31
So that's often how I work, I often use Shazam to see what they're playing,
37:36
like in the movies, and sometimes it is classical, not always, you know.
37:40
And then I listen to the whole thing. I like to listen to the whole album.
37:44
Like recently I was listening to someone who talked about Tracy Chapman, and I
37:48
listened to the whole Revolution album.
37:51
It is fascinating to listen to that whole thing.
37:54
Of course, doesn't much to do with Ravel, but equally inventive, I think.
38:00
Very, very out there as a person.
38:02
So I just like to hear the whole thing.
38:05
When I start with a musician, I just like to listen to a lot of it.
38:08
Elyse Rivin: I think I'm going to go home and listen to some Ravel. Annie Sargent: But when I walk the dog, I don't know, classical
38:14
music for walking, it's... Elyse Rivin: No, no, you need something a little bit more...
38:17
Annie Sargent: I'm pretty sure there's lots of people who listen to
38:20
classical music while walking, too.
38:22
Elyse Rivin: We'll find out. Annie Sargent: Perhaps they will tell us,
38:24
Tell Elyse Rivin: us, what do you listen to, and when?
38:27
Annie Sargent: Well, yeah. What do you listen to when you're driving, walking, and not
38:31
listening to this podcast, clearly? Merci beaucoup, Élyse.
38:35
Elyse Rivin: De rien, Annie. Au revoir. Au revoir.
38:44
Annie Sargent: Again, I want to thank my patrons for giving
38:46
back and supporting the show. Patreon supporters get new episodes as soon as they are ready, and ads free.
38:52
If that sounds good to you, be like them, follow the link in the show notes!
38:57
Patrons also get more exclusive rewards for doing that, you can
39:01
see them at patreon.com/joinus.
39:08
And a shout out this week to new patrons, Karen Lewis, Nat,
39:13
Christopher Pace and Beatrice.
39:16
Thank you all, and to all my current patrons, it is wonderful to have
39:21
you on board with the community of francophiles who keep this podcast going.
39:26
And to support Elyse, go to patreon.com/Elysart.
39:33
This week I published a reward for patrons.
39:36
It was a casual convo between Elyse and I, where we talked about all
39:39
sorts of things, and these are unscripted, just casual conversations.
39:43
And I also had a Zoom meeting with my patrons.
39:46
It's always great talking to all of you face to face.
39:50
I want to read two reviews of my VoiceMap tours this week.
39:54
One person said: "I did it in the afternoon on my own, and again,
39:58
at night with my husband when we got out of his conference".
40:02
Great, wow. Yes, doing it twice.
40:04
Lots of people report that they enjoy doing them twice because they
40:07
are kind of very dense, some of them especially, and very fun, so.
40:11
Another person wrote: "Absolutely perfect method to enjoy Paris at your own
40:16
pace, the combination of knowledge and technology delivers a great experience.
40:21
This was our fourth visit to Paris, but the first experience
40:25
with Annie's wonderful guidance. Great pace.
40:28
Love the brief. But so informative vignettes along the way.
40:32
We shared earbuds and almost stayed together.
40:36
Stopped many times along the way to shop and eat.
40:39
Looking forward to the next four tours we purchased".
40:43
Thank you very much for those reviews. Yes, I think people really enjoy those.
40:47
And podcast listeners get a big discount for buying these tours from my website.
40:54
You can see this at joinusinfrance.com/boutique.
40:58
There's also a new review of my new tour called "Savoring Paris, a Food
41:02
Lover's Walk Around Les Halles". This person said: "Annie Sargent's walking tours are excellent with
41:08
clear descriptions, great history and anecdotes and practical tips.
41:12
I've been to Paris several times and always learn something new on her tours.
41:16
They enhance any trip to Paris". Thank you, thank you, thank you.
41:21
Now, let me share a few thoughts about taking the train in France.
41:26
Of course, traveling by train in France offers a splendid window into the
41:30
heart of French culture and landscape. It blends efficiency with the pleasure of unhurried movement through the
41:36
countryside, and cities as well.
41:39
But for those unaccustomed to train travel, which is a lot of my listeners,
41:43
as a matter of fact, especially if you're from a country where the
41:48
railway system does not form the backbone of public transportation,
41:52
here are some reflections and practical tips to enhance your journey.
41:57
And if you want more details, you should definitely listen to episode 428
42:03
'All Aboard the French Train System'.
42:05
All right, here's a few tips. French trains are typically punctual.
42:10
But of course, there are, you know, exceptions.
42:13
But you need to be on time.
42:16
Trains wait for no one. The doors close minutes before departure.
42:21
So check train schedules in advance and aim to arrive at the station at least
42:26
30 minutes before your train departs.
42:30
This buffer lets you navigate the station, validate your ticket if
42:34
necessary, and find the correct platform without too much stress.
42:38
Your train platform is not going to be announced until 20 minutes
42:42
before it's time to leave. Just be aware of that and you should really check the
42:48
train number on your ticket.
42:50
It says it gives you a train number.
42:52
Check that against what you see on the displays.
42:55
You have to understand the French ticket systems.
42:58
Tickets can be purchased online, through apps, at station kiosks, they
43:03
can be paper, they can be on your app.
43:06
I really recommend that you just buy your ticket from either the website or
43:11
the app, and that you have your train code, your QR code, on your phone.
43:19
Okay. This is the easiest way. That way you don't have to worry about, do I need to validate
43:25
this ticket or whatever. You know, it's a code and you're good to go.
43:29
You have to learn a little bit about navigating the stations.
43:32
Train stations are hubs of activity, but they are well organized.
43:37
The information screens display departure and arrival times, just like an airport.
43:43
The platform, which we say 'voie', the numbers are crucial for boarding the train
43:50
at the right place, like I mentioned. If you're not sure, ask station staff, they usually have red jackets
43:58
or fellow passengers for help.
44:00
Knowing basic French, you know, helps as well.
44:04
Depending on where you are, it's not mandatory.
44:07
You have to select the right seat. If your ticket includes a reserved seat, you have to find that one
44:13
because, so you have to find the right car, the right carriage, I
44:18
guess, and also the right seat number.
44:21
The trains are long, carriages are usually labeled both inside and outside.
44:26
There's a big number one or number two on the side of the train.
44:31
That's the class of the train.
44:33
To find the car number, that's on a small little screen on the side.
44:40
And that will say, you know, car number blah, blah, blah.
44:44
And it will show you where the seats are, if they're upstairs
44:48
or downstairs for the TGV.
44:51
Luggage, unlike air travel, they don't take your luggage away and give it back
44:58
at the end of the trip, but there are racks just like you'll find on a shuttle
45:02
bus, like the shuttle bus that takes you to the airport, there are racks where
45:07
everybody puts their luggage, right? Well, it's the same on the train, you will put your luggage there.
45:13
Typically, I recommend that you keep your valuables with you in your purse
45:18
or on a smaller backpack or carryon that you can have with you at all times.
45:23
So you'll put your big piece of luggage on the racks, you can
45:27
lock them up if you want to. I don't find that necessary.
45:31
I'm not aware of theft on the train being a big deal.
45:35
Perhaps it was years ago, but it's not today. So, just relax, okay?
45:39
But do keep your valuables with you on your person, obviously.
45:43
And once you find your seat, you will have a little space to put some luggage
45:48
in front of you and also above your head for mostly coats and things like that.
45:52
And then you just need to enjoy the ride, okay?
45:55
It's very scenic. Just relax, have a good time.
45:59
You can read, depending on the seat you booked, you may have a plug.
46:03
Or not, some places don't. Sometimes there's food on the train, sometimes there's not.
46:08
Even if there is food on the train, I don't like the food on
46:10
the train, so I bring my own. Just relax, you'll get there soon enough.
46:14
And they'll make announcements in French but there are also kind of signs inside,
46:20
like screens inside of the train.
46:23
And if you have your ticket on the app, you can follow your
46:27
own train on the app as well. So, extra points for the apps.
46:32
If you purchase your tickets on the app, that's where you will find information
46:36
about possible delays, possible strikes, which again, strikes do happen.
46:42
Strikes get announced all the time.
46:46
Most of the time, the strike doesn't go forward, so don't panic.
46:51
Wait until the day before, 24 hours before a strike, they need to say
46:56
if they're really doing it or not. And I know it's hard to wait that long, but you just have to.
47:02
If there is a strike, if your train is canceled, they never cancel all
47:06
the trains, so it might delay you a little bit, but it's not going
47:10
to ruin your trip unless you booked your days like you're a lunatic.
47:15
And if you listen to me, you probably don't do that.
47:19
And also just so you know, the train is the most ecological way
47:23
to travel, it's even better than an electric car, if you can believe that.
47:29
So enjoy the trains in France, be aware that they don't go everywhere, that it's
47:34
not the fast train that goes everywhere.
47:36
Oh, and yes, this week, somebody, she had read on the fine print that
47:42
she could, for a 19 Euro fee, she could change her departure city.
47:48
Well, yes, you can, but that's only if you want to depart from a city
47:54
that's on that same line, okay?
47:57
You cannot change departure city to a completely different line.
48:02
If you need to do that, get a refund on that first ticket
48:06
and get a different one, okay? Which you can do with some, it's just like airlines, sometimes you can get a refund
48:13
on your ticket, sometimes you cannot. Read the fine print.
48:16
My thanks to podcast editors Anne and Cristian Cotovan
48:20
who produced the transcripts. Next week on the podcast, a trip report with Joseph O'Reilly
48:26
about the two faces of Provence.
48:29
It was a fun recording. I think you'll enjoy it, especially if you're going to Provence, or if
48:34
you have a thing for Provence, and who doesn't, you have to listen to that one.
48:38
And remember patrons get an ad free version of this episode.
48:42
Click on the link in the show notes to be like them.
48:45
Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you join me next time so
48:49
we can look around France together. Au revoir.
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The Join Us in France travel podcast is written, hosted, and
48:57
produced by Annie Sargent and Copyright 2024 by AddictedToFrance.
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It is released under a Creative Commons, attribution, non-commercial,
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no derivatives license.
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