Interview with Jay Simpson, house manager and trustee of Jamjang Buddhist Centre Leeds. 

In this episode we discuss Jay's path to Buddhism, from when he found some books as an 8 year old via dreams that foretold the future, to building helping build the future of the centre. We talk about the importance of compassion and mindfulness in meditation and in living a positive life!

TRANSCRIPT

Intro: [00:00:00] This podcast is for thinkers and problem solvers.

Chris: I'm here with Jay Simpson, who is a trustee and the house manager of Jamjang Leeds, Buddhist center and you've been practicing Buddhism for over 20 years, I think. 

Jay: Yeah. That's right. I'm a first came into Buddhism in 2001 formally as part of Jamyang Buddhist Centre Leeds just attending as a student when it was in the premises at Harehills.

Jay: [00:01:00] Before then I kind of knew I was a Buddhist or that I should be on the Buddhist path, but never knew how to actually find a legitimate place to practice, how to study, what even that meant as a learning exercise. Is it just something that I would just learn and understand, or was it more of a life experience.

Jay: But fortunately, when I moved to Leeds, I struck gold and started getting involved at Jamjang Leeds. 

Chris: You've got quite an interesting story of how you were drawn to Buddhism. If you'd be kind enough to share that, it'd be an interesting place I used to start. 

Jay: Yes, certainly. So I've mentioned that I'm from Grimsby originally from a council estate that has been wiped off the face of the earth now. Cause it was quite rough and, quite poor. And while we played in the backfields I [00:02:00] found two books that had kind of squiggly writing in and I didn't know what they were. I must've been about eight or nine at the time. And I thought, keep these for when I was older then, I could then find out what the writing said. And they turned out to be Tibetan manuscripts on the medicine border and also the diamond cutter Sutra, both of which are key elements in my daily practice now but it wasn't until 20 years later that I actually rediscovered the books as I travel quite a lot. Kind of everything clicked into place for me, but I'd also been taking a partner at the time, when I was in my twenties to a meditation session and I had heard that it was a Buddhist meditation and I had no interest at all in joining the class, I thought, but the sign caves,[00:03:00] switching themselves off from reality and navel gazing. How wrong I was .

Chris: You got dragged along? 

Jay: Oh yes. So I sat at the back of the class and that evening, I dreamt about a monk teaching me how to read this very long thin book. And I asked the monk in the dream, what he was doing. And there was a picture of a space man, a picture of a heart, a Lotus flower, and a Buddha. And I asked him what these symbols meant. And he says, oh, well, it's quite simple, an extraordinary being using love and compassion will attain wisdom and therefore enlightenment. And I just felt, how unusual! This isn't something that's normally my daily experience. And I asked the monk, so can I ask what your name is and where you are?

Jay: I recognised that there was stone walls[00:04:00] and railings, and it kind of made me think of Yorkshire and the countryside because obviously because Grimsby is in Lincolnshire and the monk said, oh, my name is Chenresig. And that this book is the Lotus Sutra, and I said, oh, okay, thanks very much. End of my dream.

Jay: And then I went to the meditation session again the week later, and I was sat at the back of the class when I heard the monks say the Lotus Sutra, I thought oh we must have studied it last week and made me think of a dream. So I asked the monk if he knew what the Lotus Sutra was. And what, what it was about, he said it's about about how to gain enlightenment through love and compassion and wisdom.

Jay: Ah, okay. And who wrote this then? And he says, oh, it's written by a Buddha. The patron Buddha of Tibet. And that made me think, [00:05:00] okay, I said, did you discuss this last week at the class? He says, no, no. It's a new topic. So I thought, okay, that's a bit freaky. I leave that part there.

Jay: And then the following week, I took my partner again to the meditation class, and then that night I had another dream. And this time I was on a wet rainy island in Scotland, which had never, ever been to before. I've never left Grimsby. And a, possession of monks came around the corner, carrying this high Lama, and then the Lama was lowered down to the stand and he walked across the sand without getting his feet mucky he was just kind of levitating above and the thought of this man's a bit special.

Jay: I'll have to ask him who he is, but before I could, he said to me, do you know who you are? And I says, well, [00:06:00] yes, I'm Jay. And he says, no, do you know who you actually are? So I just thought, no I don't understand He said come and find me. I said, okay, who are you? And he says, well, my name is Lama Yeshe.

Jay: And you'll find me Holy island in Scotland. And I thought, okay, but from the dream. I remember the two monks faces at the front of the procession. So then I woke up thought it was just another dream. I went back to the meditation class. Have you heard of this gentleman? No. Never heard of him I said okay.

Jay: It must be just a made up dream, but because I was working from home as a shiatzu practitioner at the time, most people would give me a call ask if they could book a treatment for a back pain or limb injury. But this particular day, I got a knock on my front door and as I opened the door, I [00:07:00] recognize the face from the dream of the first monk on the left.

Jay: And I was so shocked. I didn't know what to say. So I asked him who he was and what he wanted. And he said, he'd like to have a shiatsu treatment he'd heard about me. But his problem was that he was, he had anger issues and wanted shiatsu to help with them. So I said, it's not normally the kind of thing I would do, but certainly come in.

Jay: We'll see if we can get you to be relaxed. And then the following day, there was another knock on my front door. And as I opened, I recognize a face immediately as being the second monk that was in the front of the procession in the dream. And he'd heard about me, what is coming up for treatment, but his problem was that he was afraid of dying.

Jay: And I just said, well, this is definitely not something that I treat with, [00:08:00] but again, if you want to come in and talk and have a conversation, you know, so then that evening, my partner got back from work and I explained that these two people had been, and they were from this dream that I had experienced.

Jay: He said oh it's just make believe, it's fantasy. I said, okay, I'm just going to make you your tea. And I came back into the room and the TV was behind me and suddenly I heard this voice on the TV and instantly I knew it was Lama Yeshe. So I turned around and lo and behold on the screen, there's Lama Yeshe being filmed in the exact spot my dream was. And the across, the bottom came up, the words Lama Yeshe Holy island in Scotland. So I was completely blown away. So I knew there was meant to be some kind of connection with Buddhism. Although I don't know what or why. [00:09:00] So I said to my partner at the time, if this is meant to be anything, and it's not just fanciful thinking, I'll be able to speak to this gentleman in the next five minutes, knowing full well, I wouldn't be able to and I could put it to bed.

Jay: Yeah. So I decided to ring 192 for directory inquiries, which existed back in the day and ask them if they knew of a Tibetan that lived in Scotland or Tibetan society. And they said, oh, yes, we'll put you through now. I said, okay, and they me through to the Tibet society in the UK. And I said, that I had a very strange dream about this Lama Yeshe in Scotland. Sorry to bother you. I'm just trying to find out if I can get ahold of him and then next thing. Oh, yes, he's got a monastery, called Samye Ling. I'll just put you through. I says, oh, okay. So they put me through to Samye Ling Monastry up in Scotland near Eskdalemuir, and then a nun picked the phone up [00:10:00] and I said, oh, hello, sorry to bother you.

Jay: My name is Jay. I've had this very odd dream. I'm not a weirdo, but I've had a dream about Lama Yeshe. Yes, she, and he wanted me to get hold of him. And she said, oh, one moment. And then a voice came on the phone and said, hello, Lama Yeshe speaking and it was within the five minutes. So I explained the situation and the dream, and he said to me, if I ever came up to Scotland, he'd love to meet me that this was normal for him.

Jay: And that he would show me around and talk to me a little more about Buddhism. And it took me three years to get to meet him and, that was it I was firmly on the path to being Buddhist and just looking for somewhere to find, to practice, after a visit [00:11:00] of, a few days, I explained I lived just outside Yorkshire at the time and they said, well, if you go to Leeds, there's a Jamyang Buddhist center who will be able to put you on the path.

Jay: And the moment I walked in the door instantly, I was on the path. I met my teacher the first day and yeah, now I'm helping build its future for generations to come. Wow. It's been a bit of a journey to say the least. 

Chris: And so how do you make sense of it? I believe in Buddhism, there's a lot to do with the connectiveness of everything?

Jay: Yes in Buddhism philosophy and thought everything is interconnected, nothing is independent and coming from a council estate that, the people who lived there didn't have any particular faith, was [00:12:00] day-to-day living, very limited in its viewpoints of the outside world. It was completely different and a bit of a culture shock for me.

Jay: So you'd seen the TV films, like the Golden Child and all this sort of thing thinking is how fancyful this is and how unreal. But actually on hindsight, I can see the all the events that happened in my life all lined up perfectly to get me to where I am right now, even the jobs that I've done completely random, unrelated, jobs in various places have all given me the key skills needed to do exactly what I'm doing now to establish Jamyang for the future.

Jay: So I'm very, very, very skeptical, very down to earth but most Tibetan Buddhist are, which is yet another [00:13:00] grounding effect on me.

Chris: That's incredible. 

Jay: Yeah. They always said I should write books. 

Chris: Yeah. I don't know if you tell us a little bit about your thoughts on the role of mindfulness in Buddhism. How it fits in, some of the approaches, perhaps.

Jay: Okay. So what I have learned as I've gone along the path is that I wanted to find individuals actually walk the talk. So I wanted to sit and observe monks and nuns that are supposedly happy to see what they do so I could do exactly the same as them to get to where they're are. And no matter what the Buddhist tradition, whether it's Indian, chinese Japanese, Sri Lankan, Tibetan. They all have the key element of meditation [00:14:00] in the practice. And from observation, those who practice meditation on a daily basis achieve a much more greater sense of calm and peace and also clarity of mind and more open awareness. And can gain realisations you on the path a lot easier.

Jay: So as I've studied over the years, mindfulness is actually a part of the Buddhist meditation. And also the mindfulness movement has developed over the past 10, 15, 20 years actually came out of Buddhism with Jon Kabat-Zinn. Originally mindfulness was connected with the base elements of compassion because you can mindfully pick up a chair, mindfully, bang somebody over the head with a chair, mindfully, put it down and mindfully walk [00:15:00] away.

Jay: There's no benefit but if you act with compassion as it's based this, then you're more likely to achieve the result that you're looking for. So meditation really is the key element and mindfulness is part of the Buddhist practice of meditation. So when you're trying to develop concentration, you need to have a second cognitive function called mindfulness that will observe whether your mind is slipped off your object of meditation, whether it's a sound, a taste a feeling an understanding of something from analytical meditation. So mindfulness also can be simply observing whether or not your mind is slipped from the breath, observing it, or it can be that mind observes when you're in your day to day life, [00:16:00] whether you've broken your vows or close to breaking your vows, or whether you're taking ethical actions of body, speech, and mind. So it's quite a wide expansive mindset, but it's only one aspect, but the west has clicked onto the mind from this movement and kind of wrapped it all together into one thing. And it's kind of a, it's kind of a little bit mistaken, but the new compassionate movement that's now arrived.

Jay: It's going to work in conjunction with the mindfulness movement to hopefully it will bring them back together against the people get the full benefit. 

Chris: It seems like there's the mindfulness, on its own can be just used as this little tool that's supposedly used to get rid of stress or to make the mind go blank is what it's sort of often marketed as, or the belief is. 

Jay: Definitely. 

Chris: And that compassion part. [00:17:00] I definitely, for myself, as soon as I sort of understood the sort of compassion element and that relationship with yourself and your thoughts it really unlocked it for me. 

Jay: Totally. 

Chris: I was meditating trying to be mindful, but and just being annoyed at myself. 

Jay: Yeah. You could be mindful that you're angry mindfully that you're getting more angry because you're mindful that you're angry. So it's a never defeating loop. Whereas if you're basing the mindfulness and compassion, You can start to let things go and to be kind, not just to yourself but to others. Yeah. And also the compassion then develops integrate compassion. So then you're there to then help other people achieve the same.

Chris: It's it's quite scary. At first the amount of frustration that I was noticing. Yeah. A lot of people hold this and even with themselves, just trying to sit still, or they're quite annoyed at themselves. And it's quite a lot to take on at first. You kind of, yeah you [00:18:00] grip you grip really hard at stuff with the mind.

Jay: Yeah. Day-to-day we constantly think everything is fixed and solid and definite and real and exists out there but as you start to practice mindfulness and then it develops into an understanding of kindness and compassion and then into meditation, then you're able to challenge your own thoughts, feelings, et cetera, in a kind positive way.

Jay: And then you start to see reality in a whole new light. But also when individuals either try to to practice meditation and the daily life or mindfulness, 99% of people say, 'oh, I can't do it. My head's too full of rubbish, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.' But that's great that the see that because it's the first time that they see it. It's happening all the time, but you just don't look at it.

Jay: So when you first [00:19:00] start to meditate or practice mindfulness, It's shown in all its glory and you either run or you sit with it. And if you're acting with kindness again on yourself, you sit with it and just observe it and then they'll start to slow down. Then it'll start to be more subtle, then you start to realize that it's not fixed and solid, then you start to realize you can change it then you feel empowered. 

Chris: Yeah. I tell people when I teach the teaching, the mindfulness one thing I say is it's not the thoughts, they didn't take you out of the mindfulness, out of the meditation. People have a thought and get annoyed or they go along with the thoughts, but it can be a way back in. The way you treat them or treat yourself kindly for going with the thoughts. It's a way in every time it's like a micro compassion each time for yourself. 

Jay: Definitely, definitely even acknowledging the fact. You've had a horrible day. You [00:20:00] feel rubbish. It's too intense for you to sit with at the minute. Even the act of kindness releases the solidity and tension of that or feeling, and that's being mindful.

Chris: It's so hard to do that first step, it's like, I feel like the resistance comes to like that questioning your own reality. It's easier to dig in and to think it's fixed. It feels a bit easier, but it's not really once you get past it. 

Jay: No, that's true. I mean, the first time I tried to meditate was in a church in Leeds and I went with a friend at the time and I thought I need to be sat all quiet, cross legged and focusing on the breath and I just burst out belly laughing absolutely horrendously, laughing out loud. And I just thought, I just need to go because this is [00:21:00] embarrassing for me plus the teacher and I thought this is just a load of rubbish. I need to go. And now I teach meditation every single day. It just shows that the initial reaction is your mind just thinking what's going on here, please don't make me do something you have not done before again but giving yourself time and space and being practical and pragmatic. You're not going to be come enlightened instantly on your first go. Expect to fall over. 

Chris: Yeah. My first sort of entry into meditation that worked was transcendental meditation. Actually, I tried other ways and just found it really hard, but the actively saying your mantra was easier than sitting in [00:22:00] silence. 

Chris: After a while I stopped because, in a way I was using it to overwrite my thoughts. So I'd have a thought and come back to the mantra and that's what kind of, what the point is, I believe. You settle on one thing and in the mind settles more and more, settles, and settles and then it's very nice. Yeah. Blissful often, but that was my way in to see it showed me that what could be there when the mind calmed down. 

Chris: But I don't use it anymore. I use a sort of more grounding coming back into the body type of mindfulness, concentrating on the breath or the feelings in the body. Yeah but Transendental Mediation, it really helped me as a way in actually.

Jay: That's amazing. That's cool. Everybody's so different and there are so many different techniques out there. For example, Tai Chi, that's pure movement and meditation in motion, so that's great for somebody who is very physical and also yoga as well. That's an introduction, there's also walking [00:23:00] meditation, but then there's also visualization.

Jay: When a child is, has his or her face in an ice cream is when they've just got it from the ice cream van. They are completely and utterly absorbed in the taste, its texture, its flavor, how much happiness it brings. The outside world doesn't exist at that very moment. And lots of us do this on a day-to-day basis.

Jay: So it's knowing what works for you as an individual. Some people like to listen to sounds, some people like to do something physical. Some people like to visualize, some people like to recite mantra or affirmations, but they are all introductions to letting go of the outside world, bringing the mind inwards, not just into the body, but actually observing your [00:24:00] mind.

Jay: And that's what we're not used to doing in the west at all. And that's what feels very alien and that we don't know whether we're doing it right or not, because it's not in our culture. And if I mentioned to my parents or my family, that I'm off to sit and meditate or do prayers, they just go, 'well, that's weird are you in a cult?' but after years and years and years of seeing me practice, they now ask 'how do I calm down in this situation?', 'How do I keep a peace for mind during this?'. So just by leading by example, others can benefit as well. Yeah. 

Chris: Yeah. A lot of what I tell people about mindfulness is, it's not just about the meditation practice. It's like in all life, be compassionate and aware as much as you can be. And that's a big part of it as well. Isn't it? 

Jay: It [00:25:00] is. Yes. A lot of people think that if you just sit and meditate, that will sort everything out and it doesn't at all, not in the slightest. Meditation is really the preparation, for all of your other activities, with your body and your speech, and also how you think.

Jay: And if you try to meditate on an evening, for example, you've got all the days, problems, worries, concerns. Strong emotions that you've needed to settle and filter out before you start to settle the mind. If you actually start the meditation in the morning, your mind is more pliable and soft and it's not full of the day's activities.

Jay: So you can set your motivation, you can see that through the day, you want to be more kind or do the right thing when someone's annoyed at you [00:26:00] or, that you will not react to negative situations and you can then soak your mind in kindness, patience, love, all of the virtuous qualities, and then that in itself will affect the rest of your day.

Jay: So that's how your meditation in the morning will have a positive effect going forward. It's not there to sort out past. Experiences can be helpful, but it's more about dealing with the present going forward. Yeah. And you will start to notice habits and patterns as you try to practice. And that's when you can start to realize that it's got a beginning, a middle and an end, and that you're able to transform the negative into positive.

Chris: Nice. Well, that's a good place to end the think. Unless there's anywhere you'd want to point anyone, to any books [00:27:00] that might people might like, or anything they can do to get them on the path of mindfulness or compassion? 

Jay: Yeah. Well, I think if you're wanting to go down the path of mindfulness, always remember to base it on compassion for yourself and for others. Never do any action without the thought of, is it helpful to me and others, that way you can't go wrong. For meditation and a little bit more about what compassion is and its definition and mindfulness and the cognitive functions, and some examples, How To Meditate by Kathleen Mcdonald is my go-to resource.

Jay: And there's so many tabs. I'm not a great reader. That particular book has got tabs all the way down, feeling depressed, use that one, wanting to be calm and [00:28:00] peaceful, do that meditation, wanting to remember that things are'nt fixed and solid use that meditation and also the background information of why it's useful, practicaly perfect read. 

Chris: Ah great! Well I'll put a link in the show notes and the link to the Jamyang Buddhist Center, if anyone feels the draw to that, that'd be great. 

Jay: Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much was really, 

Chris: Thanks it's been really good. Thanks Jay brilliant.

Outro: Thanks for tuning in. If you found it interesting, please do share and if you're interested in any of my coaching, problem solving, therapy or mindfulness teaching, please visit fastslow.com.