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Just now, just before we get into this

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episode, we wanted to give you a little bit of a heads

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up that there is some talk of people

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taking their own lives along the way.

0:14

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episode for you, totally understandable.

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reach out to Lifeline on 13 11 14.

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so you know to skip ahead if you want to avoid

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that.

0:41

Um, okay. Take it away my dulcet toned Adonis. Hello, Gistners.

0:44

Welcome

0:49

back for another episode of Just The Gist,

0:51

a bi-weekly podcast

0:54

in which Rosie Waterland and I, Jacob Stanley,

0:56

give you just the gist of what you need to know about

0:58

a story we think you'll find interesting enough to

1:00

discuss at a dinner party. And

1:03

do I have a doozy to serve up

1:05

for you this week. I'm

1:06

really excited about this

1:09

one. I'm

1:11

a little bit apprehensive to be

1:13

honest. It is going to go to some dark, dark

1:15

places. So a few

1:18

weeks ago, I said I was

1:20

sort of due, maybe even overdue

1:22

to serve a little cult story. I've

1:24

been doing it for a few months and there are certainly plenty on my

1:27

gist list. And I was leaning towards

1:29

doing the Moonies but then you

1:31

submitted a request for

1:34

me to cover another very

1:36

bizarre cult

1:39

that I would say is probably one of the first

1:41

cults

1:41

that come to mind when people think

1:43

of modern day cults

1:46

that have been around. And if you don't know the name, you

1:48

definitely know the story-ish. You will know

1:50

elements as we go along. So

1:53

they are a cult that are famous for their very unique

1:55

blend of Christianity.

1:58

Star Trek.

2:00

And genital mutilation.

2:02

Mmm. Yay. Mm-hmm.

2:04

Yeah. Strap it. Getting

2:06

right in there, right away. Buckle

2:09

up, buckle it. They're known

2:12

globally for their purple shrouds,

2:14

their Nike shoes, and

2:16

their obsession with aliens, and

2:18

of course, their very tragic demise. Yes.

2:21

This is just the gist of Heaven's

2:23

Gate.

2:24

Ooh. Chills. I'm

2:26

excited about this one because

2:29

I know of it. I

2:31

think most people know of it. Mm-hmm. And

2:34

the main thing that I know is that it's

2:36

one of the oldest original

2:39

websites still existing on

2:41

the internet. Yeah. So if you go

2:43

to, is it heavensgate.com? .com, yep. heavensgate.com,

2:47

it still has the exact same website

2:49

that they created in the 90s

2:51

for people to come and see. And

2:54

it's like this weird time capsule

2:57

online.

2:57

Yeah. It's a relic. Yeah,

3:00

it is. That's been kept alive. Yeah. And

3:02

I have spent hours on that website. Really?

3:03

I think I saw it on a list of like 10

3:07

websites you can't believe haven't

3:09

changed, you know, or something like that.

3:12

And so that always really fascinated

3:14

me because I was like, ooh, it's like, it's

3:16

quite kind of chilling.

3:18

Yeah. Yeah. So

3:20

we'll definitely talk a bit about the website and what's on there when

3:22

we get to the chapter in the 90s. Yeah. But

3:25

this is a story that kicks off in the late 60s, early

3:27

70s. Wow, I didn't know that. They were around for a surprisingly

3:30

long amount of time. It

3:33

began when this guy from Texas

3:35

called Marshall Herff Applewhite Jr.

3:38

Herff.

3:38

Herff. Herff.

3:41

H-E-R-F-F. And

3:43

he went by Herff for most of his life. Okay,

3:45

wow. What a name. Herff Applewhite.

3:48

Old mate was having a bit of a midlife crisis. He'd

3:51

grown up in a very religious household. His

3:53

father was a Presbyterian

3:56

minister and Herff Jr's

3:58

plan was to be just the same. like Marshall

4:01

Hough Sr. So he studied philosophy

4:03

and theology and prepared to become

4:06

a minister. And he followed

4:08

the classic life recipe, got married

4:10

at 21, had a couple of kids, but that lifestyle

4:16

was not sparking joy for him at all.

4:18

So he put the whole idea of becoming a religious

4:21

leader on hold

4:22

for a little bit, put

4:25

a pin in that for now. And he dropped

4:27

out of his seminary studies and followed

4:29

his passion for... What?

4:31

The stage. Ah! The

4:34

musical theatre and for opera

4:36

specifically. Oh wow, opera.

4:39

Apparently he had an incredible baritone

4:42

voice. We don't have any recordings of

4:45

him performing, but everyone who

4:47

witnessed him says he was sensational,

4:50

really great actor and a superb

4:52

voice.

4:53

Like me? Yeah. What

4:55

people say about me? Yeah. What about

4:58

us? Yep. So he

5:00

studied and then he tried to make it

5:02

as a professional opera singer, but

5:05

didn't happen for him. Very competitive

5:07

industry. So like many a frustrated

5:10

theatre kid in need of a little bit of income,

5:12

he became a music teacher.

5:14

Yeah. Found it a little difficult though

5:16

to keep a job as a teacher because he

5:18

had this little habit of

5:21

having affairs with his male students.

5:22

Oh! And then getting

5:25

caught and then getting fired.

5:27

I did think when you said the married life

5:29

wasn't sparking joy that maybe

5:31

it's because it was a lady. Hi Gay. Yeah.

5:35

Hi Gay. So how old is he

5:37

at this point?

5:38

He's getting towards his late thirties.

5:40

And what year is it? We're getting

5:42

towards the early seventies. Okay. Yep.

5:46

On what? Music teacher, Stuppin Boys.

5:49

Yep. Yep. Scandals,

5:51

fired, divorced. Mm-hmm. And then

5:53

he'd wake his father in debt working

5:55

in a delicatessen. Ah! Not

5:57

exactly the dream life he'd hoping to get.

5:59

find himself in. Then

6:02

according to some accounts when Marshall

6:05

Herff Applewhite Senior died, Marshall

6:08

Jr fell into a very deep depression

6:11

and was hospitalised. And

6:13

according to those accounts, one of the

6:15

nurses he met during that hospital

6:17

stay was a woman named Bonnie Nettles.

6:21

There are some sanitised propaganda

6:23

versions of the story that say Marshall and

6:26

Bonnie met when he was just visiting a sick

6:28

friend in

6:29

hospital. But it seemed

6:31

pretty clear that she was actually his

6:34

healthcare practitioner.

6:35

You don't want people to know you're the whack

6:37

job who goes to a psych hospital. How

6:40

embarrassing.

6:42

He did try to bury that. But

6:45

yeah, we know the truth. This

6:47

is where the story really kicks off when

6:50

the two of these guys met. Now Nurse Bonnie

6:53

was a few years older than Marshall. She

6:55

was married. She had four kids. Like

6:58

Marshall, she'd also grown up in a pretty devoutly

7:00

religious family. But in

7:03

recent times, she'd started having her own midlife

7:05

reevaluation, you might say. And

7:08

she'd gone off the crusty old traditional

7:10

religion she'd been raised on and was

7:13

much more keen on new agey astrology,

7:16

tarot cards, seances,

7:19

Ouija boards, crystals, all that

7:21

woo-woo stuff. Fun

7:22

religion. Yes. Religion

7:25

but fun. As the story goes,

7:27

when Bonnie first locked eyes with Marshall

7:29

in that hospital, whether he was her patient

7:32

or a visitor, she immediately recognised

7:35

him.

7:36

He was the enigmatic

7:38

man that her psychic had predicted

7:40

she was destined to meet.

7:43

A tall man with light hair and

7:45

fair skin.

7:46

How rare. Almost

7:50

never stumbled across my lamp. Oh my god.

7:52

Especially not in Texas. She

7:55

was drawn to him, believed it had to

7:57

be fate, and she offered to do

7:59

astrological birth chart for him. And

8:02

of course he was like, go ahead. Cause

8:05

he just loved the attention he was getting from her. Boom.

8:08

They bonded immediately and they agreed.

8:10

We must be soulmates. We must have

8:13

known each other in at least one of

8:15

our past

8:15

lives. At least. And

8:18

the fact that the universe keeps bringing us back together

8:20

means we must have a purpose.

8:23

They didn't know exactly what that purpose was yet,

8:25

but they decided that they needed to spend all

8:27

of their time together, figuring that out and

8:30

researching all sorts of woo stuff,

8:33

auras, chakras. And

8:35

they got really into UFOs

8:38

and extraterrestrials

8:39

in particular. And they're not

8:42

romantically. Not at all. Just

8:44

soulmates. Yeah. No sex. Totally

8:47

platonic. Yeah. After a few months

8:49

of this, Bonnie quit her job, left her

8:51

husband and her four kids. Oh my

8:53

God. And took off with Marshall.

8:55

No.

8:57

And they just traveled around the USA

9:00

learning about all sorts of different

9:02

spiritualist movements.

9:05

And then they tried opening up their own new age

9:07

bookstores a couple of times, which failed

9:10

because they had no experience

9:13

in running businesses. They

9:15

made enough money to scrape by most of

9:17

the time, feed themselves by doing manual

9:20

labor. Or sometimes they'd sell their bodily

9:22

fluids to make a couple of bucks.

9:24

Yeah. They just needed enough to

9:27

keep themselves fed. They

9:29

were living in motels and then

9:32

skipping out on the bills

9:33

most of the time. Because they decided that

9:35

the rules of man didn't apply

9:37

to them. Yes. Because they were turning

9:40

into more highly evolved

9:41

things. On a higher plane. Yes. Yeah. Then

9:44

when they decided that they'd done enough research,

9:47

after a couple of years on the road, they

9:49

decided they were ready to form their

9:52

own spiritual religious philosophy

9:55

and started making plans to recruit a

9:57

crew they could lead. Yeah.

9:59

class they could teach.

10:03

They were going to start a cult.

10:03

Yes.

10:06

Okay. So my question here is, although I think I know

10:08

the answer, this

10:10

wasn't cynical in any way. Like

10:12

they weren't just like, we need to make some cash. Let's start a cult.

10:15

They genuinely believed their

10:18

own

10:18

hype. Is that, because it sounds

10:21

to me from what you've described, they're in

10:23

a bit of a foliar to do like

10:25

joint delusion, egging

10:27

each other on in this bizarre

10:31

different way of living they've chosen. Do

10:34

they really believe? Let's

10:37

circle back to that at the end. It's

10:39

an interesting question that you ask, and I think we'll

10:42

see a bit of evidence later on

10:44

that I don't want to spoil just yet. But

10:47

I think one of them truly believed

10:50

and one of them lost faith

10:52

along the way. Okay. And so, like,

10:54

this maybe has gone a little bit too far. Yeah.

10:57

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

11:00

Okay. So they started hosting seminars where they presented

11:02

their belief system and hoped that they'd recruit some

11:04

students to join this class

11:07

they were setting up. So they'd literally

11:09

just roll into

11:09

towns, pull up, put up

11:11

posters, hand out flyers that

11:14

were just an open invitation for people to come along,

11:16

hear one of their little discussions.

11:19

If they were interested in learning more about

11:21

UFOs and the true nature of

11:24

the universe, that was the hook. They led with

11:26

the UFOs.

11:26

Is this the 70s still? It is, yeah.

11:29

Yeah. Because this is a time when people are really exploring

11:31

all kinds of new age stuff. Yeah,

11:35

yeah, yeah. Especially to do with UFOs

11:37

and ancient aliens and

11:40

all that nonsense.

11:41

Super popular at the time

11:43

for sure. Okay. So

11:45

it's not a crazy plan

11:48

for them to put up a whole bunch of flies around a town.

11:51

People would have gone to something like that

11:53

back

11:53

then. Oh, they certainly did. Yeah, like lots of people.

11:56

They showed up in droves. Yeah, yeah. So

11:58

they hired community halls to help.

11:59

host these events and then they'd sit

12:02

up on the dais. And when

12:04

the curious audience were all in there and

12:06

seated, they would introduce themselves as

12:08

the two.

12:10

That was the name they went

12:12

by. Marshall would do almost

12:14

all of the talking, of course, because he's the natural

12:17

performer.

12:19

And Bonnie would kind of be the silent

12:21

type that would just kind of sit there and

12:24

nod sagely, if you can imagine

12:26

that. And

12:28

told the group, he and his partner were the

12:30

two witnesses, as in the

12:33

two witnesses mentioned in the book

12:35

of Revelations in the Bible. You've

12:37

heard of them, of course. So

12:41

standing up there and saying, guys, you know us.

12:42

We're in the Bible. You

12:44

might have heard of us from the Bible.

12:46

And as the Bible tells

12:48

us, we too will be martyred for

12:50

telling you what we're about to tell

12:52

you that's been foretold in the

12:54

Scriptures. But we are willing to be martyred

12:57

because we have this incredibly important message

12:59

to pass on to you from higher

13:01

beings. We also

13:04

want you to know that we're a couple of aliens

13:07

who've come to this planet to

13:10

share this information with you and we'll

13:12

then be returning to that planet.

13:15

And we'd like to tell you

13:16

a little bit about it because that planet

13:18

is heaven.

13:19

Heaven's a planet. Mm

13:22

hmm. Marshy

13:25

and Bon Bon, I don't know about these two.

13:28

It seems to me like they

13:31

have to be either completely nuts together

13:35

or totally cynically making it up

13:37

to make money. So we've already found

13:39

out that he was in a psychiatric hospital. Right.

13:42

And then he's got this practitioner who's supposed

13:44

to be helping him, but he's in actual fact

13:46

enabling

13:47

him. Okay, right. Okay, so, okay,

13:49

I'm getting it. So

13:53

this is how we land with these two people

13:55

standing on a stage. One a music teacher.

13:58

Yeah.

13:59

telling these strangers

14:02

that heaven is a real physical place out

14:04

there in the universe and if you have access

14:06

to the right spaceship

14:08

you can travel there and that's what

14:10

they were offering. I mean it just sounds

14:13

like old marshy's you know

14:15

a bit of a nutter

14:17

and has thought up some interesting things

14:20

and Bonnie's gone okay sure

14:22

let's do let's go with that

14:24

then. Let's get you a microphone and see

14:26

where this takes us. It's

14:29

even more appealing what they're offering becoming

14:31

a god on a different planet if you believe the other

14:33

part of what they were saying which was that the earth

14:35

is about to be recycled, destroyed.

14:39

The majority of the population

14:41

was about to die.

14:42

Recycled sounds so sinister. The

14:45

world's about to be recycled. Broken down

14:47

for parts. So yeah

14:48

they had

14:51

the opportunity to become part of this

14:53

chosen few that would evacuate

14:56

the planet rather than be broken

14:58

down for parts. Yeah yeah

15:00

yeah. These chosen few

15:03

who decided to come to this pivotal seminar

15:05

in a community hall because

15:07

they found a handwritten flyer taped

15:09

to a telegraph pole and accepted

15:11

the invitation. They were the most important

15:14

people to get off the planet.

15:15

Did many people accept though?

15:17

I mean people came to the seminar to hear about UFOs.

15:20

I'd probably go to a seminar about UFOs but

15:22

once they got through the spiel were

15:24

many people like? A shockingly

15:27

high number of people. Oh my god of course.

15:29

I need to know more. And they

15:32

believed what these guys were saying when they were

15:34

telling this group that you

15:36

would undergo a full physical transformation.

15:39

Yeah. If you join our

15:41

movement that we've come up with. You'll

15:43

go through a metamorphosis like a

15:46

caterpillar turns into a butterfly

15:48

when you become this incredible

15:51

alien. Yeah. And then you'll be ready to

15:53

travel to the kingdom of heaven where you're

15:55

going to then live forever traveling

15:57

all around the galaxy. On a spaceship. Yes.

15:59

a surprisingly high number of people

16:02

were like, I am sold, sign

16:04

me up. Wow. Now, the two

16:06

didn't claim to know exactly when the apocalypse

16:08

was going to happen, but they said it would definitely

16:10

be very, very soon. And

16:13

the heavenly aliens were going to come down to whisk

16:15

away the faithful few. So it was time

16:17

to get ready and stay ready

16:20

for the angels to come because it could

16:22

be any day now. So

16:24

anyone who was keen to get on board, and it was a few dozen

16:26

in the early months, getting

16:29

ready

16:29

meant letting go of everything

16:32

that made a human a human.

16:34

Anyone who bought into what the two were selling

16:37

had to give up their entire lives,

16:39

sacrifice everything that was connecting

16:41

them to earth and to the human vessel

16:44

they were inhabiting.

16:46

Oh, like their body. Yes. Oh

16:48

my God, explain. Well, we'll start off with belongings.

16:51

Yeah. Because I mean, you'll see a lot of common

16:53

threads here. Yeah. They had to sell

16:55

off all their worldly possessions, put all

16:57

their cash into the group. Of course.

17:00

Collective funds naturally. They had to relinquish

17:03

their names and their identities,

17:05

take on a new name that was chosen by

17:08

the two leaders. Everyone's

17:10

name ended in O-D-Y,

17:12

and I won't get into the naming structure,

17:15

but your name would be Rizzodi. I

17:17

would be Jacodi. Lindsay

17:19

would be Linzodi. And

17:22

just that one singular name. Rizzodi.

17:24

Everyone went by

17:25

Rizzodi. I kind of like Rizzodi. I like Jacodi.

17:27

It's not the worst.

17:29

It's fun. Don't get any notions. Anyway,

17:31

yeah. They were taught not to

17:33

think of themselves as unique in any

17:36

way. They were just part of the group, and

17:38

it was their goal to sort of join

17:40

a collective consciousness, a hive

17:42

mind with everyone else, and not

17:44

to do anything that was selfish

17:47

or self-serving in any way. Of

17:49

course, we've heard this before with every other cult. They had to

17:51

cut off all connections to family,

17:54

friends, anyone they were attached

17:56

to, kids, pets,

17:59

all

17:59

of it. I love that you put

18:01

kids and pets in the same category.

18:03

Kids, pets. You

18:05

know, the optional extras. Yeah. Yeah.

18:09

And then sex and gender. Lots to say

18:11

here about Marshall clearly being a repressed

18:13

gay, maybe bisexual man

18:15

and how that influenced the doctrine. Sex

18:18

absolutely no carnal pleasure was

18:21

to be indulged in with

18:23

yourself or with others. They said that

18:25

sex was a human weakness. Higher

18:28

level aliens didn't do

18:30

the fluids and the grunting. They

18:33

were far more

18:33

evolved and sophisticated.

18:35

Is that what sex is to you? The

18:38

fluids and the grunting? What is

18:40

it beyond that? Yes.

18:43

It's a mess. Yeah, it is. It's

18:45

what it is. A noisy, noisy mess. A sweaty mess. The

18:48

aliens were far more evolved than that. And

18:50

also they were a model. They didn't need

18:52

to reproduce. So to be ready

18:55

to become like them when you

18:57

go through your metamorphosis, it's

18:59

time to start living like a monk or a nun now.

19:01

Who'd want to be a mortal if you kind of

19:04

orgasm? That's a long time.

19:07

They'd need something really, really good to compensate for

19:10

that.

19:12

But sorry, I used monks and nuns there.

19:16

Higher level aliens don't have genders at

19:18

all. So to be like them, to ascend,

19:21

the followers were going to need to be gender

19:23

neutral as well as completely

19:26

asexual in this life if they were

19:28

going to be able to go through the metamorphosis.

19:31

Which meant all the members had to crop their hair

19:34

really short. No men were allowed to

19:36

have any facial hair. No one was allowed to

19:38

wear any makeup or jewelry,

19:40

no high heels. They all wore really

19:42

loose

19:42

baggy pants and loose

19:45

baggy button up shirts. Maybe

19:47

everyone had to present as a daggy

19:49

suburban dad because that was just

19:52

kind of the genderless default.

19:54

Yeah. But I mean, I can

19:57

understand how they are aiming for

19:59

gender. gender neutrality, which they

20:02

can do with a lot of superficial, you

20:04

know, the haircut and the no facial

20:06

hair and the clothes, whatever. But you can't force

20:08

asexuality on a person.

20:11

They tried their darndest. Oh my God.

20:13

Why? What do you mean? We're going

20:15

to lead to a dark, dark place. Is this

20:18

the general mutilation you mentioned? Oh my God. Okay,

20:20

go. Enter the place. Enter

20:23

the place.

20:24

The other thing that they had to give up

20:26

was food for the first few weeks, at

20:28

least sometimes first few months they had to go on the master

20:30

cleanse. Which is? That's where you

20:32

can only have lemon juice, cayenne

20:34

pepper and maple syrup.

20:36

Oh, like Beyonce did before Dreamgirls. That's

20:38

it.

20:39

Yeah. So I'm sure a lot

20:41

of these folks got Dina Skinny. Yeah.

20:44

Yeah. Just like B. They had to be

20:46

ready for when they transformed into their higher selves because

20:49

aliens also didn't eat. They just absorbed

20:51

their energy from sunshine like a succulent.

20:53

Alien, immortal alien

20:55

life sounds miserable. Doesn't it? Because

20:59

when I said, geez, immortality is a long

21:01

time without orgasms and then I thought, well,

21:04

I suppose if you had like fried chicken,

21:07

but you don't even get food? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:10

Just sunshine. Just sunshine

21:13

and traveling in a spaceship. Yeah.

21:15

Couldn't be that much fun. Geez, take me there, please. There's

21:18

shades of the little mermaid here for me. Like she

21:20

gives up everything and these folks had to give

21:23

up everything that made life worth living. She

21:25

did that for that basic man. Yeah. Very

21:28

pretty man, but very basic man. But

21:30

yeah, so these followers, like Ariel,

21:32

were willing to give up everything that they had known

21:34

and everything that made them them to

21:37

move on to this new plane of existence.

21:39

But I mean, it is. We've talked about it before

21:42

in, I think we talked about it a lot in the

21:44

episode we did on the Blair Witch Project

21:47

and how we talked about it was a time

21:49

in the 90s when everybody believed

21:52

it,

21:53

even though it was quite obvious that it was all just

21:55

a fake. It was just a silly movie.

21:58

Everybody believed it because it was.

21:59

fun to believe in something and it was fun

22:02

to collectively believe in something. Everyone

22:04

loves being part of a group. Exactly. And

22:06

so, honestly,

22:09

I think a cult is a cult is a cult is

22:11

a cult, like whatever the end game of Heaven's

22:13

Gate is, it's more just

22:15

about these people having a collective

22:18

group experience. A connection, a purpose.

22:20

Belonging, connection purpose. Mm-hmm.

22:22

So yeah, they

22:25

got people to enroll in the class,

22:27

even after hearing all that bizarre

22:29

doctrine and then hearing the terms and

22:31

conditions, they were still like, yeah,

22:34

I want that for me. And they disappeared

22:36

from their lives. Parents left their

22:38

children, husbands left their

22:41

wives, parents were left behind. They

22:43

sold off everything they could pour and they spent their

22:45

time travelling around America, helping

22:48

the two spread this gospel of

22:51

alien transmogrification.

22:52

Transmogrification? Transmogrification.

22:57

Yes. What a word. Okay. I'm sure I know

22:59

that from Harry Potter. I don't know. Transmogrification.

23:02

Did I just make up a word? Did you? Did I? No. I've

23:05

never heard it before. Alien transmogrification.

23:08

We'll leave it. Yeah. We'll make it a thing. I want

23:10

to transmogrify my coprolite.

23:13

Just two words you've taught me in the last couple

23:16

of weeks. Apparently, it is a word. It means

23:18

to change or alter greatly and often with

23:20

grotesque or humorous effects.

23:22

There we go. There you go.

23:24

It fits. Yeah. It works. What would you transmogrify

23:26

the coprolite into? I just like

23:29

saying, I want

23:32

to go through a coprolite transmogrification.

23:36

I just like saying that. That's a t-shirt. Yeah, it

23:38

is. Yeah. I want to go through a

23:41

coprolite transmogrification. You

23:44

saying? New

23:45

catchphrase.

23:47

That can be our cold mission statement. Just

23:51

the gist. Transmogrify your

23:54

coprolite.

23:58

Oh, really? Okay.

24:01

So they were waiting for this big day that was

24:04

going to come. Yeah. And they waited

24:06

and they stayed ready because

24:09

any day now the aliens were going to come,

24:12

save them from this ghastly dying planet

24:15

any day now and the years

24:17

ticked by. That's

24:18

so smart though. That's so smart to

24:20

do it that way. Keep them hanging on. Don't give them a set

24:22

date. Just it's going to be soon. It's going to be soon.

24:24

I can feel it. It's going to be soon. Oh, no, they've moved

24:27

it out.

24:27

That episode of Parks and Recreation.

24:29

Parks and Recreation. And I guess now they

24:32

have money because they're living off

24:34

people selling their house and pulling it

24:36

in the thing. So they've got money to live off

24:38

and they could just keep

24:40

it going for a while.

24:41

That's right. And that's exactly what

24:43

they intended to do. But they then

24:46

became a bit of a talking point on the news

24:48

in 1975 and the media became fascinated in them, called

24:52

them the UFO cult because they were kind

24:55

of unique and extra quirky in

24:57

addition to the fact that they were destroying families

25:00

like a lot of other cults around the time.

25:04

But yeah, they'd been able to sort of fly under the radar

25:06

for a while. The thing that popped them into the spotlight

25:08

was this very successful recruitment seminar

25:11

they had in a fairly

25:11

smallish city

25:14

in Oregon. About 200 people

25:16

attended the meeting and then about 30 of

25:19

those people decided to join the group and

25:22

just vanished. What?

25:24

And that's pretty conspicuous in a fairly

25:26

small community. Yeah. A significant

25:29

percentage of its population just

25:32

gone and no one knew where they went.

25:33

People are so desperate to belong to something

25:36

bigger than themselves. People are so desperate for

25:38

purpose. Imagine going to a seminar

25:40

like that, seeing a bunch of nutty

25:43

people walking around looking like

25:46

lesbian art teachers

25:48

in their baggy outfit and their

25:50

short hair. It just reminds me of my high school art

25:53

teacher. And

25:55

going, yep, I mean, I'll

25:57

do it. Yeah,

26:00

like that's not people are

26:02

desperate. Life must be grim in Oregon. Or

26:04

maybe, yeah. This is the more

26:06

attractive alternative to them.

26:09

Yeah. Marshall and Bonnie would go

26:11

through a few different names for themselves. Oh.

26:14

For a while they went as Guinea and Pig because

26:17

they were part of this great experiment.

26:20

Then they went by Bo and Peep

26:23

because just like little Bo Peep,

26:25

they had a flock of sheep.

26:27

Oh, they're overthinking it. They're overthinking

26:30

this. Well, I think I'm overthinking it. Sheep that

26:32

she famously lost. Oh, that's

26:34

true. But they thought it was cute

26:36

and it stuck for a while. Then,

26:39

because the media made fun of them for being these

26:42

shepherds with a flock of brain dead sheep,

26:46

they decided we'll move away from Bo and Peep

26:48

and they landed on Doe and Tea.

26:50

Doe for Marshall, Tea for Bonnie. Doe

26:53

and Tea. Want to guess why? Keeping

26:56

in mind he's a musical theater kid. Doe

26:59

a Deer, a Fiend from that song. Bingo.

27:02

What's Tea in that? Dore Mi Fa Sol

27:04

La Tea.

27:05

Tea. Ah. Tea

27:07

of Jim Richard and Bread. It's the bookends

27:10

of Dore Mi Fa Sol La Tea.

27:12

That's it. Yeah. Of

27:14

course, the media was giving them a lot of side eye anytime

27:16

they'd talk about them. They were described

27:19

as sinister but also as a joke

27:21

at the same time. They tried

27:23

their best to defend themselves. They sent spokespeople

27:26

out to talk on camera and claim that they

27:28

were trying their best to save souls.

27:31

They of course just made it worse

27:33

when they were talking about their belief system.

27:36

Doe and Tea decided that they had done quite

27:38

enough to try to rescue the people of Earth

27:40

for now.

27:42

Everyone was clearly too ungrateful. They weren't accepting

27:44

the help that was being generously offered to them so

27:46

the group went underground. They

27:48

stopped doing recruitment. They had no more public

27:50

seminars and they just focused on the core

27:52

group they had at

27:53

this time. They have

27:56

been. 70 to 200 and it

27:58

sort of fluctuated.

27:59

Just like people would go,

28:02

some would come back, then some

28:04

people would end up bringing a friend or family

28:06

member into the fold. So yeah,

28:09

it just sort of went up and down. Now

28:11

because the two, Doh and T,

28:13

still hadn't been martyred in the sense of being physically

28:16

killed as the Bible had predicted,

28:18

they pivoted and said to their class,

28:20

their crew, that their persecution

28:23

in the media was the metaphorical martyrdom

28:26

that they had experienced. And that means

28:29

the day

28:29

of reckoning is really, really close.

28:32

Well that's easier for them. Oh,

28:35

it's not violence against us, it's

28:37

just media persecution.

28:40

They've murdered our reputations. Which

28:43

is arguably worse. Arguably

28:46

worse. Okay, so yeah. And so

28:48

they were like, all right, it's coming soon. We're going to

28:50

have to tighten up those rules, everybody. We're

28:53

going to have to implement a strict no drugs,

28:55

no smoking, no alcohol policy.

28:58

They hadn't banned those? And 76 vendors

29:00

disappeared. What? You

29:04

didn't tell me booze was allowed? Up

29:07

until this point, yeah. Right,

29:10

so you couldn't eat, but you could

29:12

smoke and drink. This is like Gwyneth

29:14

Paltrow's diet. So

29:17

okay, right. And they

29:19

banned those and the 76 people immediately

29:21

left. Oh, this isn't for me after

29:23

all. If I can't get high then. Because

29:26

they wouldn't let her drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:28

Plus, you know, if you were someone who was smoking

29:30

weed regularly, you'd be a lot more receptive

29:32

to these messages. Ah, yes. You even

29:34

try taking a break and sobering up, you're going to

29:37

look at yourself in the mirror and go, why am I dressed

29:39

like a lesbian art teacher? Yeah,

29:41

yeah, yeah. Okay. But there were still

29:43

like roughly 100 or so, kept

29:46

moving around, staying in camping areas, motels,

29:49

tried to stay hidden. Did not contact

29:51

their loved ones. A lot of families desperately

29:53

tried their best to track them as they moved around

29:56

the country and tried to maintain

29:57

contact. Some of them tried to.

29:59

send out deprogrammers to rescue

30:02

their family members. Years

30:04

went by, no aliens,

30:06

but everyone who was still on board really

30:09

did their best to keep the faith. Towards

30:11

the end of the 70s, some of the members of

30:13

the group came into quite a significant

30:16

amount of money. You'll be really stunned to hear

30:18

that some members of the crew were trust fund babies from

30:21

very wealthy families who were keen

30:23

to live authentically and did a little

30:25

bit of cosplaying as

30:27

paws for a while. So

30:30

they were able to fund the group moving

30:32

into some pretty flash houses

30:34

in pretty wealthy communities. Now

30:38

the lifestyle that everyone was living,

30:41

you've probably sort of figured this out, very miserable.

30:44

Everyone was starving, everyone

30:46

was horny. They were also sleep deprived

30:48

because they were kept busy with tasks

30:50

from wake to sleep, which

30:53

was intended to sort of eliminate any

30:56

opportunity they had to stop, ponder,

30:58

think about their choices, just keep

31:00

them busy and make sure that their brains

31:02

are fuzzy because they're not getting a good night's

31:04

rest.

31:04

That's a big one in cults is lack

31:07

of sleep. That was a big one for Jonestown

31:09

as well. Keep everybody working, everybody

31:11

exhausted.

31:11

And no one was able

31:13

to make choices for themselves. Everything

31:16

was dictated for them in a manual, like how

31:19

to brush your teeth, which included

31:21

like how many strokes back

31:23

and forth to do, how much toothpaste

31:25

to use, how to make their beds,

31:28

how to prepare the small amount of rations

31:30

they were allowed. Everything was dictated for

31:32

them so there could be no creativity or

31:34

decision making.

31:36

But some people want that. I

31:38

see the appeal, like not that

31:41

I would do it, but there is, aren't

31:43

there times in life where it's that famous

31:45

scene in Fleabag where she says to the

31:47

priest, I just someone, I

31:50

want someone to tell me what to do,

31:52

to make every decision, to tell me what to

31:54

cook, to tell me what to wear. I just

31:56

want someone to tell me what to do.

31:59

It's a sense of like.

31:59

not having any pressure

32:02

on yourself being taken care

32:04

of. I just have to follow these

32:06

instructions and following these instructions

32:08

means I'm gonna end up in heaven as a mortal

32:10

alien. Yeah. It was something

32:12

that a lot of them, I'm sure, really appealed to them. Less

32:15

appealing, they weren't allowed any physical contact

32:18

whatsoever, no touching. And

32:21

then to make sure that nobody transgressed, they were always

32:23

with a Czech partner, always under

32:26

surveillance, kind of like when Mormons send

32:28

out their kids on missions and

32:30

they have to be inseparable, make

32:32

sure they're keeping each other honest, make sure no

32:35

one cheats on any of the rules,

32:37

because then they'd miss out on becoming a higher

32:40

level being.

32:40

See, I'm still wondering

32:43

what I asked at the start, to what end?

32:46

Do they really believe it or is it

32:48

just a scam? Yeah. Like

32:50

to what end? All this stuff. For Marshall and

32:53

for... Yeah, for Marshall and Bonnie. Like,

32:55

how bizarre, it's just that he's a nutter.

32:58

Yes, and I'll go ahead and tell you

33:00

now, Bonnie this entire

33:02

time was in constant contact

33:05

with her daughter and two

33:07

of her other kids as well,

33:08

sending letters, making phone

33:10

calls, sending money for gifts from

33:13

time to time. So even though

33:15

they were telling their followers

33:18

that if they had connections

33:20

to their human life, there was no way they

33:22

were gonna be able to get on the spaceship. She

33:24

clearly didn't believe that was true because she was

33:27

doing everything she could to stay connected

33:30

to her family. And then she was directly

33:32

telling her daughter, follow

33:34

normal society. Just

33:37

go to university, get

33:40

a good job, get married, have

33:42

a family, live your life the

33:44

way that most people live it. Don't

33:46

go off the rails like this. I think

33:49

it might be a sunk cost, fallacy

33:51

situation. Oh, she's already too far in. Yeah, it'd

33:53

be too hard to extricate herself from

33:55

this. Right. But she did feel a real

33:58

connection to Marshall.

33:59

So I think she was really scared of losing him

34:02

if she started to show

34:04

signs she was losing the faith. It doesn't sound

34:06

like they're keeping the money or anything. You

34:08

know how Rajneesh bought 50 Cadillacs

34:11

and it sounds like the money is just

34:13

being used to look after the collective

34:15

group.

34:17

So it's like it really

34:19

isn't a scam so much. It's

34:21

like they kind

34:23

of believe it. We've outlined the ways that this is a very

34:26

stereotypical cult, but then

34:28

it's very different in the fact that there's no

34:30

sex going on. No one's really making

34:33

a huge profit out of

34:34

it. Yeah, that's what it's like generally the leader

34:37

at the top, even if they, you know, have

34:39

believed it at one point or don't know what

34:41

it is, it still is they are

34:44

gaining something from it, like

34:46

financially.

34:47

But so what it's

34:50

so weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's

34:52

no status in this one. It kind of makes it even, yeah. It's

34:55

kind of scarier even.

34:56

Now we'll flash forward to 1985. Ten

35:00

years into this game, still

35:02

no aliens, no mothership, no Armageddon,

35:04

just lots of sad families hoping that this

35:06

would all just wrap up. Still

35:10

a handful of original members who'd

35:12

been waiting that entire decade. And

35:15

then suddenly Bonnie T died

35:18

of cancer. This

35:20

was a real slap in the tits. They didn't

35:23

see this going. And by this

35:25

point, T and Doe were telling their followers that

35:27

they were these ancient aliens.

35:30

They'd been around the galaxy

35:32

for millennia and they'd been sent here

35:35

on this mission to inhabit these human vehicles,

35:37

kind of like body snatches. And

35:39

they were there to rescue their followers.

35:41

That was their purpose. And

35:44

they were going to physically lead everyone onto

35:46

this flying saucer that go through

35:48

their transmogrification. And

35:51

then

35:52

she was just gone.

35:53

This wasn't part of the prophecy that

35:56

they'd been telling everybody. And

35:58

so if Doe wanted

35:59

to keep this game going, he

36:02

was going to have to pivot,

36:04

make sure people didn't lose their

36:06

faith, because T dying

36:08

sort of flew in the face of what they'd been

36:11

promising this entire time. He

36:14

announced that T's death was just her true

36:17

alien self leaving her human-shaped

36:20

meat sack to.

36:22

That's exactly what Scientology said when L. Ron Hubbard

36:24

died. He just decided to move on

36:26

from that body because

36:29

he had a different mission

36:31

in a different place that he needed to take care

36:33

of. And T's mission was

36:35

to go back to the heaven planet and bring

36:38

the spaceship

36:39

to collect the rest of them.

36:42

OK, smart, smart, smart. And then

36:44

from there, he replumbed their whole belief

36:46

system so that people would

36:48

start to accept the fact that they may have to let

36:51

their human vehicles die to

36:53

allow their higher level selves

36:56

to move into their next body when

36:58

they got onto the aircraft, spacecraft.

37:00

So here's where seeds are being planted.

37:03

No longer about that chrysalis moment

37:06

of transformation anymore. It was

37:08

about going from one body to another.

37:11

Now, from the beginning, Doe had been side by side

37:13

with his partner, T. They made all

37:15

their F-ed up decisions together.

37:18

And she was kind of the brains of the operation

37:21

in a

37:21

lot of ways. Yeah, I was going to say how, because he's just

37:23

a nutter who kind of had her

37:25

to guide everything. And now that she's

37:27

gone, it's just going to go off the rails.

37:29

He was really just sort of the mouthpiece.

37:32

And he was really worried that without

37:34

T, who was the older one and had the highest

37:37

status, people might leave him.

37:39

And then he'd be all alone with nothing.

37:42

So he invited all the members of the group to show

37:44

their devotion to him, a higher

37:46

being, an immortal alien,

37:48

by marrying him.

37:50

He held a group wedding ceremony.

37:53

And every member of the cult

37:55

started from that day on wearing a cheap

37:58

gold

37:58

ring. telling people that

38:00

they were married to Doe.

38:03

Sure. Okay. Yeah.

38:06

So now they're all in this grim regimented,

38:08

sexless,

38:10

polygamous marriage together,

38:12

living under the same roof, miserable.

38:16

And how many of them are there now?

38:18

We're about 50 by this

38:20

time. Okay. Still

38:22

a lot. And then inevitably the sexlessness of it all became

38:25

a problem for some of the fellas in

38:27

particular. I'm shocked it's taken this long.

38:30

Well, it had always been a problem, but now it was

38:32

getting to be the point where they were like, we've got to find

38:34

a solution for this. They'd

38:37

been told they couldn't bonk, obviously. They

38:39

couldn't even have a wank. Otherwise, they

38:41

wouldn't be able to get on the spaceship. And

38:43

so of course, some of them started having snorgasms.

38:46

Of course.

38:47

Nocturnal emissions. Nocturnal emissions. Liquid

38:49

dreams.

38:49

And uh-oh,

38:51

those also preclude you from becoming a heaven

38:54

alien. Strict no cum

38:56

policy for getting to the heaven planet. Okay.

39:01

Buckle up. This is the gory bit. You

39:03

might want to skip ahead a couple of minutes

39:06

if you don't want to hear about some gruesome

39:08

details.

39:09

And it does get gruesome because he tried

39:11

to keep it clean and I forced him to go into more

39:13

detail because I'm a sadist. So

39:16

yeah, skip ahead a few minutes if you don't

39:18

want to hear the gory bits.

39:19

So the obvious solution

39:21

was removing the pesky

39:23

testes. Oh yeah, that's the

39:25

obvious solution. How about Doe, who's

39:27

in charge of all the rules, just says, oh, we're

39:29

allowed to have sex now. No,

39:32

no, instead we're going to

39:33

castrate each

39:36

other. Wait, who does it? How

39:38

do they do it? Oh, Jacob, who does it? Who

39:41

does it? Firstly,

39:44

more than a dozen of the guys signed

39:46

up for this. As soon as the notion was

39:49

put out there, they were like, yep, I'll do anything

39:51

to strengthen my chances of

39:53

getting to the higher level. They

39:56

started with an attempted at-home surgery.

40:00

I remember there was a nurse in her old life

40:02

and she decided that why not? She'd have

40:04

a go at the D-nutting,

40:08

bag emptying. Surprisingly,

40:10

did not go very well. The poor

40:12

chap nearly bled to death because

40:14

of this

40:15

botched ball removal job. I

40:17

have so many more questions about the logistics

40:19

of that at-home surgery, but I mean, I

40:22

suppose it's probably too gory to go into, but I really want

40:24

to know, was there anesthetic? Like, anesthetic, were

40:26

they awake? Are they even trying

40:28

to... They're awake. Yep. And

40:30

how did she try to do it? With

40:33

a scalpel. Now, she said that she had experience

40:35

with testicle removal as a nurse

40:37

assisting a surgeon in her previous

40:39

life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who knows if that was true or

40:41

not? But, you know, she did what they

40:44

thought was all the proper stuff with, you know, slicing

40:46

open and clamping and there was

40:48

the entire audience, are you ladies okay

40:50

over there? I mean,

40:53

it's not just

40:56

a capsule inside a Kinder Surprise

40:58

egg. No. Like, you can't just slit it open

41:00

and pull. It's not just loose in there. That's

41:03

right. You can't just cut a hole and pop it out. Like,

41:05

it's connected.

41:06

It's all

41:09

happening down there. Basically,

41:12

once she thought she was finished and she sewed it

41:14

up, the incision, then the bag

41:17

just kept filling and filling and filling and filling

41:19

and filling with blood when I say bag, I

41:21

mean, it's corrosion obviously. So, she hadn't

41:23

turned off one of the taps in there. Right,

41:26

yeah. So,

41:27

were they screaming? I mean, they

41:29

were awake. A few of the men who were watching

41:31

said, only one man had surgery done

41:34

in this way. Yes, okay. Yeah, the guinea

41:36

pig. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who said he

41:38

had no regrets at the end of this. Yeah,

41:41

he nearly died. The rest of them ended

41:43

up going to a proper surgeon they found who

41:45

was willing to do this for him. Who

41:47

was willing to do it. Yeah, who I think actually was in Mexico. I thought

41:50

maybe we should just pony up the doe to travel across

41:53

the border. I can't believe you kind of like for

41:55

the sake of keeping it clean skimmed

41:57

over the details as if I wasn't going to ask the

41:59

intricacy.

41:59

of how that worked. Come

42:02

on. Yeah, the guys who were watching were like,

42:04

I nearly threw up. And then all of

42:07

the 12 were like, I'm

42:09

backing up. But eight of them went ahead with

42:11

them over the course of the next year, including

42:14

Do.

42:15

Yeah, he was back in

42:17

and doubling down even harder than before. Oh

42:19

my goodness. Then the 90s rolled around.

42:22

Still no salvation by a spacecraft.

42:25

And the members of Do's crew, they

42:27

were getting this intensifying sense of paranoia,

42:31

fear that they were going to be persecuted

42:33

because as the years passed, they continued

42:35

to be ridiculed, criticized.

42:39

And they'd been compared to the People's

42:41

Temple cult that ended up in Jonestown

42:44

and to

42:45

the Manson cult.

42:47

And then they'd seen the rise and fall of the

42:50

Rajneeshis in Oregon.

42:52

And then in 1993, they saw the

42:54

tragedy of what happened at Waco, Texas.

42:57

And there'd been a couple of other instances where the

42:59

government tried to intervene and shut

43:02

down one of these cults that was considered

43:04

dangerous. And so they were getting really worried

43:06

the government was going to try to destroy them.

43:09

They started to feel a lot of despair

43:12

for the planet. And this was when

43:14

they really started

43:15

to think about exiting

43:17

the planet by choice strategically. They

43:20

just weren't sure when. And then a sign

43:23

came along in July of 1995 when the Hale-Bopp comet

43:27

was discovered. It

43:30

was discovered by a couple of astronomers just peering

43:32

through their telescope and went, Oh, what's that?

43:34

Turned out to be this enormous celestial

43:37

body that hadn't come into view

43:39

of the earth for like two and a half thousand

43:42

years. So this was a pretty

43:44

big deal and very big news

43:46

when it was revealed to the press. People

43:49

got really excited as well, because they were going to be able to see

43:51

this comet without even using equipment. Oh,

43:53

wow. And when it was really close, they'd be able to see

43:55

it in the daytime. Oh, cool. It was going

43:57

to be really impressive. Yeah. didn't

44:00

take long, of course, for a crackpot to

44:02

start making do-your-own-research type

44:05

claims about what the comet could really

44:07

mean. And so he said he had

44:09

photographic evidence that there was a giant figure,

44:12

a companion flying along

44:14

behind the Hale-Bopp comet shaped

44:16

very much like

44:18

a flying saucer. Just

44:22

sort of floating along in the slipstream.

44:24

Yeah. Okay. And he claimed

44:27

the government was editing the

44:29

spacecraft out of the images of the comet

44:31

that was being published. It was this big

44:33

conspiracy. No

44:36

surprise that Doe and his crew glommed

44:39

on to this, and they were like, well, this

44:41

is it.

44:42

It's finally the moment

44:44

T has come with our ride. She's

44:47

here to pick us up and take us to the next level

44:50

of existence. Yeah. And of course, that

44:52

proof of the companionship

44:56

was debunked, but that didn't

44:58

matter. Doe and the crew were just like, hey,

45:00

the comet itself could be the

45:02

craft. We know this is the moment.

45:04

Yeah. They got ready to finally at long

45:06

last ascend after more than 20 years

45:09

of preparing. They were going to graduate,

45:11

be reborn, get off this godforsaken

45:14

dying planet. They would generously

45:17

put out a few last calls via

45:19

their sexy new internet website

45:21

page that you mentioned

45:22

earlier, headnsgate.com.

45:24

How did they have a website? How did they know how to

45:26

do that? A lot of them had to go

45:29

out and find day jobs. Yeah. That's

45:31

another question I have. They

45:33

surely have run out of money now because they wouldn't be recruiting

45:36

anyone new. So all the money that

45:38

new members had brought in would be gone.

45:40

So they're working. And a lot of them, because

45:42

they were nerds, part

45:45

of how they ended up in this situation was

45:47

that they were into UFOs and they were into science

45:49

fiction.

45:50

They got jobs in computers and then coding

45:53

once the internet

45:54

came along. Imagine there's

45:56

someone in your office with like a weird short

45:59

bob and a... like baggy gray

46:01

clothes just going, hello, Jacob.

46:04

Nice to see you today. Sorry, Jaco-D. Hello, Jaco-D.

46:07

If you don't mind. Hello, Jaco-D. Nice to

46:09

see you today. No, I won't be having

46:11

lunch. I'll be having this. Lemon

46:14

juice with canned pepper. Like,

46:17

can you imagine that weirdo in your office?

46:19

Well, a lot of people

46:21

in America experience that. Wow. Yes,

46:23

they were rocking up to work every day. And

46:26

so they had a web, they had, the website

46:28

is crazy. It looks like a 1995

46:31

website. It's

46:34

so weird.

46:34

And when you go in there, a lot of

46:37

the space is dedicated to,

46:39

this is your last chance.

46:41

Oh, quickly. Everyone

46:44

must go, get out while you still can.

46:47

We're heading off. You can come with us if

46:49

you would like to.

46:50

Chop your balls off and jump on in.

46:53

We're going to space, bitches.

46:55

What a reasonable price of admission. Yeah. Yeah,

46:58

not a lot of takers. And in fact, they

47:00

were getting really badly trolled on

47:02

the internet as well. On the website. Yeah.

47:05

Because the internet was mean from the very

47:08

beginning. Trolls were there then. Yeah,

47:10

yeah, yeah. Of course

47:12

they were. From

47:13

its inception. And so they were like, okay, fine.

47:15

You hang here and rot,

47:18

whatever. Yeah. Over the next year and a half,

47:20

they got ready for their big moment.

47:22

Because the comment wasn't going to get

47:24

super duper close until 1997. Yeah.

47:28

Late in 96, they rented this huge

47:31

mansion in Rancho Santa Fe,

47:33

just outside of San Diego, California.

47:35

Yeah. And they spent their final few

47:38

months living in this beautiful big palace,

47:41

and really being

47:43

people for the first time in years.

47:46

Like what? The way they celebrated their upcoming graduation

47:48

was by just having fun for the

47:50

first time in years. They went to SeaWorld. Oh!

47:53

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

47:55

ha ha. They went to Vegas. Oh

47:58

wow. This really decadent Christmas. celebration,

48:01

proper feast, giving each other gifts,

48:04

even though they weren't meant to have individual

48:06

possessions at all. They

48:08

put on a talent show for each other

48:11

just to have fun. Were they

48:13

having sex?

48:14

Not sure. All

48:17

of this stuff that we know about was captured on camera,

48:20

video camera, because they wanted to document their phone

48:22

in a few months. No one seems to have taken

48:24

the camera into the bedroom. But who knows?

48:26

I'm sure they were. Maybe once

48:29

a few rules went out the window, then the whole

48:31

shebang went as well.

48:32

So I'm assuming then they know what

48:34

they're going to do. So this is kind of like their

48:36

last meal, like their few months of

48:38

last life. They

48:41

spent decades trying their best not to be

48:43

human. And then they spent their last little

48:46

bit of time

48:47

being extra, extra, extra human. Just trying to jam

48:49

it all in. Which you could think maybe

48:52

was because they were now certain their salvation

48:54

was coming. They could look through a telescope and

48:56

see their ride was on its way

48:58

so they could relax a little bit. It

49:01

wasn't about magical thinking to make

49:03

the spaceship come. But also

49:05

I think that the real tragic

49:07

way of thinking about this is they knew very well

49:09

that they were dying.

49:10

Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, they knew what

49:12

was coming. This is the end of their existence and they couldn't

49:14

really kid themselves. So

49:16

live it up while you've got the chance. Isn't that

49:19

weird cognitive dissonance though? Yeah,

49:22

it's about like in order

49:24

for them to do it, they have to truly

49:27

believe it. But the

49:29

fact that they're going to do it means they

49:31

also have to disconnect from what they believe

49:33

to have some fun. Because they're like, oh, I'm about to

49:36

die so I better live it up. But the

49:38

only reason they're doing it is because they don't think

49:40

they're going to die. They think they're going to have it. Like

49:43

how bizarre the different

49:45

corridors in their brains.

49:47

Yeah, their brains have just been

49:49

scrambled. Yeah, it's

49:51

pretty sad. You can't make a Tom look without

49:53

breaking some Greggs. It's like

49:55

my grandma always said. Yes. So

49:59

yeah.

50:00

1997 March, just as

50:02

the Hellbop Comet passed closest to Earth,

50:06

coincidentally was right around Easter,

50:08

a time of rebirth, Jesus

50:11

blah blah blah, just couldn't be more perfect. All

50:13

the members filmed their exit

50:16

messages, talking directly to camera,

50:18

saying goodbye. Exit

50:20

messages, that's so weird. Sorry,

50:23

did people know what, did

50:25

other people know what they were going to do?

50:27

No. They knew that this was...

50:30

Yeah, there were some members of the group who'd

50:32

made the decision to stay in

50:34

their vehicle on Earth and

50:36

said that they'd made that decision so that they could then

50:39

spread the gospel. Yeah, right, okay.

50:41

Which is how we then know about everything that

50:43

happened because they stayed back.

50:45

That's what I'd say too. I'm going to

50:47

stay and spread the

50:50

gospel, guys. You

50:52

can rely on me. You have fun though.

50:54

So yeah, no one knew

50:56

this was coming. Okay, so no one knew.

50:59

Yeah. In the videos, they tried their

51:01

best to reassure their loved ones

51:04

from their previous lives that they knew exactly

51:06

what they were doing, that they'd chosen

51:08

to do it, not just willingly but joyfully.

51:11

So you can watch these videos. They're

51:13

all on the website.

51:14

And when you watch them, do you

51:18

believe that they truly believe what they're

51:20

saying? It's

51:22

really difficult because they're all saying it in front

51:24

of an audience. Yeah, they're

51:26

all watching each other. They're all seeing their peers. They've

51:29

all agreed that they're going to do this thing together. And

51:31

they've all spent years and years, some of them

51:33

decades, reinforcing these

51:36

ideas to themselves and to

51:38

each other. So it would be really difficult

51:40

for them to say anything that went against the

51:43

doctrine.

51:44

I think a lot of them probably wanted to believe

51:47

this. Yeah. They'd

51:50

sort of lost hope in everything

51:52

that this planet had to offer for them.

51:55

So things could only be better for them,

51:58

whichever way this

51:59

works. out. Yeah. That makes sense. Oh God,

52:02

that's grim. It really, really is. Yeah. Um, their claim

52:05

again and again and again was that they were not dying.

52:07

They were choosing life. If they were

52:09

to stay, that would be the real suicide.

52:12

This was them choosing to live forever.

52:15

And they, I mean,

52:18

they even used Star Trek references in

52:20

these sign off messages like beaming up. Oh,

52:22

and live long and prosper. I

52:25

didn't see that one referenced, but

52:27

yeah, talking about how they were going to be traveling around

52:29

the galaxy. Yeah. They called themselves the

52:31

away team because apparently on Star

52:34

Trek, the group that would go down to

52:36

the planets was called the away team. They were the

52:38

away team who'd been on earth and now they were going

52:41

back. Yeah. Yeah. And

52:43

then just as this comment swung past

52:46

our little planet, they followed

52:48

their procedure for the Ascension.

52:50

They all put on their special uniforms

52:52

for the graduation. Black

52:54

tuxedo shirts that had this custom

52:57

embroidered patch on the sleeve

52:59

that you might've

53:00

seen before. Yeah. It's a triangle.

53:02

It says heaven gates away team.

53:05

You can see the logo on the

53:07

website of course.

53:08

And is this with the Nike sneakers

53:11

that really effed Nike over? Sure

53:13

did. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

53:15

Black trousers and a brand new pair

53:17

of Nike sneakers for sneaking.

53:20

Really? Is that what they said?

53:23

I believed you. Oh. Yeah.

53:26

Brand new never been worn because Dogue

53:28

would get a good deal on them.

53:29

No. Oh my God. They

53:33

did 39 pairs of matching shoes. Everyone

53:35

had to look exactly the same. 39 people. 39

53:38

of them.

53:40

Yeah. And then I guess they chose

53:42

to believe that they were now in a better place on

53:45

that spaceship that was flying through

53:47

the air being driven by their dear beloved

53:49

T. Yeah. Yeah. Now the

53:51

rent had been paid up on that mansion for the next

53:53

month or so. So we don't know how long the bodies would

53:55

have been there undiscovered. Yeah.

53:58

But Dogue had put a procedure.

53:59

process in place to make sure that they were found within

54:02

a few days. He posted

54:04

a package to one of the members who decided to

54:06

stay in his vehicle. Then

54:09

he did contact the police anonymously

54:11

and got them to go to the scene.

54:15

And then eventually he sort of came forward as a bit of a

54:17

spokesperson for

54:20

the group, along with a few

54:22

other previous members and

54:24

existing members who decided to stay. He

54:27

came forward and explained the rationale

54:30

behind all the different choices that had been made.

54:33

Of course, everyone around the world was

54:35

fascinated by this. It sparked a frenzy

54:38

because there were so many different quirky elements.

54:40

The Nikes, the fact that all the dead

54:42

members were carrying their passports.

54:45

What? Because like they're

54:47

going like space air travel?

54:49

Yeah, they

54:50

all had like a little bum bag with

54:52

not only their passports, but $5.75 in

54:55

cash in there because there

54:57

was this short story Mark Twain had

54:59

written. And he just had this throwaway line in there

55:01

that said it costs $5.75 to ride

55:04

on the tail of a comet. Oh my God.

55:06

Noted.

55:07

So you leave your body

55:09

behind, but you take your bum bag with

55:11

your passport and your $5. You

55:13

got it, sweet peas. Yeah, makes sense.

55:17

So yeah, tragic. Biggest mass suicide

55:20

on US soil ever.

55:22

I know you just said it's tragic, but I just

55:24

imagined if their body's gone and their spirit

55:26

just seeing like 39 floating bum

55:28

bags and

55:30

nothing else.

55:34

Floating along behind this comet. Behind

55:36

the comet, little bum bag. On its way to heaven.

55:38

Oh God. No, sorry. Tragedy,

55:41

tragedy, tragedy, mass suicide,

55:43

tragedy. And most of the families

55:46

found out about this happening

55:47

via the news.

55:50

And I mean, you

55:52

can imagine a lot of them were really scared. Please,

55:54

please, please. I hope that's not my

55:57

kid or my mom.

55:59

For a lot of people, they

56:03

were sort of prematurely relieved because

56:05

the media was stating that all the bodies

56:07

were male because of the

56:09

clothes and the haircuts and the lack

56:12

of makeup. And then they had to

56:14

come out and say, oh no, whoops, it's

56:16

actually mostly women in the group.

56:19

Oh goodness. Yeah.

56:22

And yeah, it was reported on as this

56:24

dreadful, dreadful

56:25

tragedy that people had a morbid fascination

56:28

in, but of course it was ridiculed a lot

56:30

on all of the late night talk shows and

56:32

sketch shows. And that's why for me

56:35

up until the last few weeks, all I knew about

56:37

Heaven's Gate was through these flippant

56:39

references about castration

56:41

and shrouds and comets and Nikes.

56:44

And Nikes, yeah, same. That's all I really knew.

56:46

They were just nutters. Yeah. I

56:48

thought that they were a group of

56:50

drug-fueled nutters who literally

56:52

snipped their balls off with pinking

56:54

shears while they were staring up at this

56:57

comet in the sky and thought that

56:59

they were going to get taken off to Heaven. I didn't

57:01

realize that there was this long 22

57:04

year history. Of

57:06

brainwashing. 27 years actually of the

57:08

entire thing. And

57:11

yeah, now obviously I have consumed

57:13

a lot, read a lot, watched a lot. And

57:15

the big question that everyone sort

57:17

of ends on is, was

57:19

this a mass murder

57:20

like Jonestown was

57:22

or was it a mass suicide? That's what

57:25

I was going to ask. What are the criminal

57:29

implications here, if any,

57:31

because they all technically

57:34

chose to do it? So

57:37

a couple of things to consider. Yeah.

57:40

In the months that followed this mass

57:43

suicide murder, whichever falls

57:46

under, another four members

57:48

took their own lives. Really? They

57:51

were still convinced of the truth of this and

57:53

they believed that they were going to be able to catch

57:56

up to the comet. Yeah. But

57:58

it wasn't too late for them. And so they did their best to follow. the

58:00

procedure for themselves in the same uniform,

58:03

passport, bum bag, $5.75 to be able to get

58:05

there.

58:08

Very, very sad. I mean,

58:11

you could argue that's partly because they've lost all

58:13

their friends, they've lost their community, like they're

58:15

just cast adrift now. They thought they were going to

58:17

be okay staying back in the world and it wasn't working

58:20

out for them. They are also

58:22

some people who've appeared in some recent documentaries

58:24

and podcasts who were

58:26

part of Heaven's Gate and

58:28

still consider themselves part of Heaven's Gate.

58:31

They still believe, they believe that Do

58:33

and T and all the rest of them are in

58:35

the Heaven planet. They made it onto the comet

58:37

and they regret that

58:38

they didn't act when they had the opportunity

58:41

to go. So what are they doing now, then?

58:43

Like what are they waiting for?

58:46

The comet's not going to come back in their lifetime.

58:48

So what are they... And I

58:49

think they've just sort of come to terms with that. But

58:51

I think again, it's another form of cognitive dissonance.

58:54

They're like, huh, the world didn't end,

58:56

but it's still gonna. Yeah. Maybe

58:59

they're still away from me to get off this planet.

59:01

If I had done it, I would

59:03

be with them. Oh, how

59:05

weird. Yeah, very grim. So

59:07

I was like, okay, they were fully, fully, fully convinced.

59:09

And some of them are still fully

59:12

convinced, but they would not be fully

59:14

convinced if this man and woman hadn't

59:16

come up with this crazy story

59:18

that they started preaching to people in such a

59:20

convincing way that they

59:22

got into their heads. But also, and this is why

59:24

I asked this question from the start. Was

59:29

it sinister in its motive

59:32

or not? And I don't think it was. I think he,

59:34

for whatever mental health reasons, truly believed

59:37

all this stuff. She

59:39

kind of got wrapped up in it, at

59:42

least to the point where it was too late for her to

59:44

leave if she did start thinking maybe

59:46

it wasn't true. So it wasn't

59:48

to some kind of financial

59:50

gain or even power gain, really

59:53

it seems like. It just seems

59:55

like

59:56

he really believed all this weird shit.

59:58

Yeah. And then I whole lot of people got

1:00:01

involved and it just fueled itself.

1:00:03

Yeah. How weird.

1:00:06

And if you think back to the first few things that I told

1:00:08

you about him, he sort of grew up expecting

1:00:10

he was going to be a religious leader and

1:00:12

he also just got high of

1:00:14

people's attention. And he managed to

1:00:17

find himself in a position where he had people

1:00:19

worshipping him while he was doing these hours

1:00:22

and hours long sermons to

1:00:24

them, sometimes in person, sometimes recorded

1:00:27

on video and then sent out

1:00:29

on videotape or on the internet. So

1:00:32

he was sort of in this perfect position

1:00:34

and of course he had people taking care of him financially.

1:00:37

Exactly.

1:00:38

So there's narcissism involved for him.

1:00:40

Very much. Narcissism, probably some

1:00:42

mental health stuff

1:00:43

in terms of, I mean, as in like

1:00:45

delusions, I don't know, whatever. And

1:00:49

then yeah, he just figured out a way to be taken

1:00:51

care of and getting to perform all day every

1:00:53

day. Yep. Had

1:00:55

a sense of purpose. Exactly. And

1:00:58

connection. Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:01

And then I have no evidence of this,

1:01:04

but I wonder if T, Bonnie,

1:01:06

knew about her cancer

1:01:07

for a longer time than she'd let people

1:01:09

know. And so this was just a way

1:01:11

to see out her final few years. Maybe.

1:01:15

And that's why she was sort of easy to just

1:01:17

stick around, go along with it for 12 years

1:01:20

or so. What else am I going to do? It's

1:01:22

kind of fun. It's more fun than it was being a mother

1:01:24

of four working in a hospital, traveling

1:01:27

around the country, hanging out with these cool youths.

1:01:30

Yeah. Youths.

1:01:33

Wow.

1:01:33

Yeah. And so that is

1:01:36

just the gist of the Heaven's Gate

1:01:38

cult. And it has

1:01:41

been my complete

1:01:43

and out of focus for the last week

1:01:45

and a bit. There is so much stuff out

1:01:47

there to consume. The top things

1:01:49

that I would recommend if you want more on binge,

1:01:52

there's a four part documentary called Heaven's

1:01:54

Gate, The Cult of Cults. And

1:01:57

that has incredible footage that they've

1:01:59

done.

1:01:59

interviews from some of the exit interviews,

1:02:02

a whole bunch of...

1:02:03

All the stuff that I want to see.

1:02:04

Yeah. Some of the seminars

1:02:07

that they hosted when they were recruiting people in

1:02:10

the early days, news footage

1:02:12

from throughout the 20 odd years.

1:02:16

A lot of the wild, wild stuff and also interviews

1:02:18

with the people who were members of the

1:02:21

cult and family members

1:02:23

of previous members.

1:02:27

And then a lot of those same people then appear

1:02:29

in this podcast series called Heaven's

1:02:32

Gate. We'll post links to these obviously.

1:02:35

And that's a nine part series, I think.

1:02:38

And yeah, that goes into a lot of detail

1:02:41

along the way. And you also get to hear

1:02:43

from the same people with slightly different

1:02:46

takes. They would

1:02:48

be the main ones. And then yeah, exploring, poking

1:02:50

around the website.

1:02:51

How many members

1:02:53

are left today? We don't

1:02:56

know. They're awesome.

1:02:57

Yeah. They're not public, most

1:02:59

of them. A lot of the people who were

1:03:01

members when they do speak to the public use

1:03:04

a pseudonym and won't reveal their

1:03:06

location or any hints

1:03:08

as to their identity. Yeah. So

1:03:11

we aren't sure how many people are in there. But

1:03:13

this is the other thing. There are people who are asking

1:03:15

to join.

1:03:16

Oh my gosh. People

1:03:19

via the website get in touch with them and say, I'm

1:03:21

really intrigued by your ideas. I think there's something

1:03:23

here I want to get involved. Yeah, because is

1:03:25

it a member still running the

1:03:28

website? Yeah. Right.

1:03:30

We're not sure who, we're not sure where. Why haven't they updated it? I

1:03:33

think because people enjoy it.

1:03:36

It's like a famous relic. Or being a time capsule. It's

1:03:38

like an internet tourist attraction. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

1:03:42

The Comic Sans. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:46

Plus they're not actively recruiting. Yeah. Wow.

1:03:49

They're a very exclusive club now. Oh my goodness. That

1:03:52

was good. There you go. Well. It's

1:03:55

a big one. I warned you it might be a

1:03:57

little dark. Thanks, Doe. A

1:04:01

deer. A female deer. I'll

1:04:05

be T, you be Doe. A drop

1:04:07

of golden sun. Oh my God. They

1:04:10

actually rewrote the lyrics to that song.

1:04:12

I totally blanked on that, but yeah, they rewrote

1:04:15

the song as a tribute to Doe and

1:04:17

T. How does it go? The

1:04:19

Mestar

1:04:20

and the Berry beginning.

1:04:31

A very good place to

1:04:34

start. When you

1:04:36

sing, you begin with Doe and

1:04:38

T. When

1:04:40

it's time, you begin with

1:04:43

Doe and T. T

1:04:46

and Doe. The Mestar and

1:04:48

the Berry just happened

1:04:50

to be Doe

1:04:52

and T. T and

1:04:55

Doe. Doe and T

1:04:57

are so naughty.