0:01

Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland

0:03

Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

0:06

What's the best preschool tip that

0:09

you've given?

0:10

The tip that I would give people

0:12

most raising preschool kids

0:15

is keep a twinkle in your heart. Keep

0:19

a sense of humor. These

0:22

stages will pass. They're okay,

0:25

You're okay. Smile,

0:29

it's okay.

0:31

If that isn't a tip for life, I

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don't know what is.

0:42

Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's

0:45

Crib. I have been trying to get today's guest

0:47

on for a long time, and she is

0:49

busy. She is just so busy,

0:52

going in the homes of toddlers

0:55

everywhere and helping children

0:57

and parents on all

1:00

all sorts of things. I know her because

1:02

she was Albi's toddler and me

1:04

teacher, and she

1:07

is literally a toddler whisperer.

1:09

I have never met a woman

1:12

like this who also

1:14

makes mothers and fathers and

1:16

caretakers and child

1:19

specialists feel at

1:21

ease at all times. And I really

1:23

think you're all going to benefit from her

1:26

vast amount of knowledge but also just

1:28

her person. Her name

1:31

is Carol Provost. She's

1:33

here to talk preschool nursery school transition

1:35

to kindergarten tips, which I have got a lot

1:37

of questions about that. Carol Provost

1:40

has worked for over forty years as an early childhood

1:42

educator, parent support expert, and

1:44

child development specialist. She

1:47

has advised administrators over the years in cultivating

1:49

play based, developmentally appropriate

1:51

curriculum for preschoolers. She

1:54

has also spent countless hours training

1:56

preschool teachers and considers good quality

1:58

early childhood education fundamental

2:01

for a functional society. Carol

2:04

has also provided in home support for children struggling

2:06

with a variety of issues, including separation,

2:08

anxiety, toileting difficulties,

2:10

and delayed social skills. She is currently

2:13

offering parental support via telephone

2:15

or zoom appointment and continues to offer in home

2:17

support for children and their families in the San

2:19

Fernando Valley. Carol,

2:22

Oh, I am like literally emotional that

2:24

you are here today, Welcome to Katie's crib. I

2:32

am just so excited you're here. There

2:34

is no one like you. You are one of

2:36

a kind. I don't understand.

2:39

She's the person everyone listening

2:41

who like the toddlers are just

2:43

like fighting to sit on her.

2:44

Lap and I miss

2:47

that.

2:48

I'm sure you do. I'm

2:51

so happy you're here. Thank you for taking

2:53

the time. Can you first tell

2:55

us how did you get into

2:58

the early childhood development field.

3:02

I think it started with

3:04

the fraud relationship I had

3:07

with my own mother perfect,

3:10

and I think I grew up as

3:13

I got older and started to think

3:15

about it. I really didn't

3:17

know if she really

3:20

didn't have capacity and shouldn't

3:22

have had children, or she didn't

3:24

have help and support that

3:27

might have helped. Because

3:30

I was born in nineteen forty two.

3:33

You look great, Carol, Thank

3:35

you.

3:36

I'll be eighty one.

3:38

Oh my god, you look

3:40

amazing.

3:41

Thank you. But times were different

3:43

then, and the advice

3:46

was different then, things

3:48

like feeds your child every

3:51

four hours and not a minute

3:53

before because they have to be on

3:55

a schedule. I was

3:57

born a four pound baby

4:01

and four hours

4:04

was too long to wait, so I

4:07

was upset

4:10

infant, and she didn't have any

4:13

skills or support

4:15

to handle such a thing. And

4:17

that continued through my

4:19

whole life. And the

4:22

family's story was kind of

4:24

your sister was the easy one, but

4:27

my sister also has stuff.

4:31

It just was tough.

4:32

So I always had an interest in it. When

4:35

I went to school, I actually got

4:38

both a bachelor's and a master's degree

4:40

in theater. Then I got

4:42

into child development. I kind of wasted

4:44

my education, but the truth is the

4:47

master's in directing made

4:49

me a better nursery school teacher because

4:53

I knew what a set should

4:55

look.

4:55

Like, and you also

4:58

know how to herd cat.

4:59

Right, what a room should look

5:01

like. I knew what the hum of kids

5:04

playing, when it worked

5:06

and when it didn't, what the pace

5:09

was like. So it wasn't a waste

5:11

and one of the first jobs, because

5:14

in theater, your first jobs

5:16

are not in.

5:17

Theater, that's for sure.

5:18

And so I got a

5:21

job at the Children's

5:23

Centers of Los Angeles and

5:26

got very interested

5:28

in what they were doing from my point

5:30

of view wrong. I

5:33

went back and took many

5:35

classes of extra education

5:38

from UCLA Extension and

5:40

got my child development specialist

5:44

authorisation and

5:46

never looked back. It became

5:49

a passion to make things

5:51

better for moms and kids.

5:54

Carol, I'm

5:56

telling you, I didn't even understand

5:59

how important in early childhood

6:02

life and education

6:04

and development, any of it really was

6:07

until I started touring nursery schools.

6:10

Really, people thought I was overdoing

6:12

it. I think I looked at like sixteen nursery schools.

6:14

But it wasn't because in

6:17

all honesty, because I wanted LB to get into

6:19

this or that or whatever. It was mostly

6:21

because I was educating myself. I

6:23

didn't know what

6:26

my style was. I didn't know what

6:29

kind of set

6:32

like you're speaking of really spoke to

6:34

me and my child, which

6:37

was where we crossed paths, and I feel

6:39

so so lucky that we did. What

6:43

do you tell moms that you're working with

6:45

to do about tantrums? Let's say

6:47

let's start there.

6:49

Hey, I'm sure, sorry, so much fun,

6:51

aren't they? They're triggering, they're

6:54

difficult. First, I'm going

6:56

to say to you, reframe it. Your

6:59

child is in giving you a hard time. They're

7:01

having a hard time. It's

7:03

a very different way to look at it.

7:06

They're overwhelmed, their

7:08

little brains are trying to do so

7:10

much. They get sensory

7:12

overload, they get exhausted

7:15

from a day of trying to socialize,

7:18

and where they feel safest is at

7:20

home with you, and they

7:23

melt yes. And so

7:25

your job as a parent

7:28

or a caretaker at school

7:30

is to meet their chaos with your

7:33

calm. So that

7:35

means regulate yourself.

7:39

I always liked I've read somewhere

7:41

about the acronym stop

7:44

like a stop sign, and

7:46

it means stop,

7:50

take a breath, observe,

7:53

and then proceed.

7:56

Oh my, by

7:58

the way, this works with adult Yes,

8:01

yes it does. I think

8:03

when you realize what is superpower, it

8:06

is. Look, I think mom's listening.

8:08

I try very hard to meet a tantrum. I

8:10

always think of, Okay, if

8:13

I yawn, he's gonna yawn, right if

8:16

he yawns ee yon. So if he's freaking

8:18

out, then I'm going to freak out and escalates

8:20

his freak out, which escalates my freak out.

8:23

And I've had enough tantrums to know if

8:25

I can just stay as regulated as

8:27

possible for me, what I've

8:29

noticed is it lessens the time of

8:31

the whole ordeal. Look,

8:34

I'm not perfect. There have totally been times

8:36

where it's also felt wildly good to just lose

8:38

my collective shit for a second. But

8:41

and then I apologize because

8:43

I really don't want to meet his tantrum,

8:46

like I am an irrational thinking adult.

8:49

But what you just said is very important.

8:51

There's always room for repair. Your

8:55

child is always going to wake up the next morning

8:57

totally in love with you and wanting

8:59

it to be better. So when

9:01

everybody's calmed down

9:04

a sincere apology, I'm

9:06

not proud of the way I handled that. I

9:09

got too mad. I'm

9:11

going to work on that. Teaches

9:13

them strategies to

9:16

do the same.

9:16

Thing that's exactly right. And

9:19

we've had doctor Dan Siegel on

9:21

who my parents actually

9:24

did that. I don't think they knew what they were doing, but

9:26

my dad was one of those guys who if

9:28

we got into something, or please go

9:30

to your room and think about what you've done type of thing.

9:33

As a teenager, I have such

9:35

distinct memories of him coming in my room and then sitting

9:37

on the end of my bed and us like talking about what had

9:39

happened, and it always ended up with him in tears

9:41

because he's sort of emotional, and he would just be

9:43

like, Okay, do you feel good. I feel good,

9:46

Let's have a hug, let's say we're sorry. And

9:48

I don't know if he knew what he was doing,

9:50

but we have a wonderful relationship,

9:53

and I feel like so much of that is

9:55

because it wasn't perfect, but we

9:57

were very good at letting things

10:00

zimmer, talking about them after apologizing

10:03

and feeling repaired, which I

10:05

do with my kids a.

10:06

Lot, exactly. It's the

10:08

most important thing. It teaches

10:11

them how to do the same thing that

10:13

will help them to have healthy relationships

10:16

going forward.

10:18

And what do you think I mean? This

10:20

is such a hot button topic about discipline

10:23

and oh my goodness, like timeouts,

10:26

grounding. Obviously anything physical

10:28

is a no note, but anything in that world

10:30

you could advise on.

10:32

Absolutely to think of discipline

10:35

as teaching, not

10:37

punishment. Discipline

10:40

is a chance to teach somebody

10:43

coping skills during a hard

10:45

time. Timeouts I

10:47

really don't like, because

10:50

when a child needs you most

10:53

is when they have melted down or

10:55

acting out, and when

10:57

you isolate them with that, with

11:00

the shame of that. It's

11:03

not a way to regulate. It's a

11:06

way to shut down and become depressed.

11:09

You may think that's compliance, but

11:12

there's a price to pay for that. If

11:15

a child is acting out, they're telling

11:17

you they need your super ego

11:20

to sustain theirs till

11:22

they can regain their

11:25

ability to calm and

11:28

proceed. And so what

11:30

I like is time in. But

11:33

again, what you have to do is

11:36

regulate yourself so that you can

11:38

handle it. You might have to take a

11:40

minute, you might have to say

11:42

to your child, I'm

11:45

getting too mad, I'm

11:47

too grumpy right now, I'm

11:49

going to go to the bathroom,

11:51

or I'm going to go into

11:53

my room for a minute and I'm going

11:55

to calm down so that we can

11:58

work this out. And

12:00

then you do that and come back

12:03

and say, today is

12:05

a day when you don't seem to be able

12:07

to keep your hands

12:09

from hitting other kids. So

12:12

come hold mine

12:14

and we're gonna do play doough

12:16

together, or we're going to make

12:19

a cake or whatever it

12:21

is so they can work out some of

12:23

that stuff. And in the process

12:25

of doing that, you're letting

12:27

the child know that you're here for them,

12:31

that they seem to have lost their balance

12:33

for a minute, emotional balance,

12:36

and you're there to provide yours.

12:38

So you know, the same thing is we

12:41

say all the time, put your oxygen mask

12:43

on first.

12:45

Right, stop with whatever the

12:47

stop means.

12:48

Stop exactly, stop, take

12:50

a breath, observe, and

12:53

proceed the observing.

12:56

The observation is what's

12:58

going on? Is he hungry?

13:01

Is she tired?

13:03

They get a bad night's sleep.

13:05

Has school just been too long?

13:07

Too many transitions today?

13:10

Maybe there's so they're not going to tell

13:12

you about it. At the time of the melt

13:16

or the acting out. They don't have

13:18

access to cognitive abilities

13:21

in those times. The chemicals in

13:23

the brain that get downloaded, as Stan Siegel

13:25

will tell you, makes it impossible

13:28

for them to take in cognitive

13:31

information. So don't try.

13:34

Oh, I remember my marriage.

13:36

I was like, our marriage is not going to survive

13:38

this if he's trying to

13:40

have a teachable moment in the midst

13:43

of a meltdown, Like I was like, please,

13:46

this is not for him. This must

13:49

be for you, Adam, my husband,

13:51

this is and this is a product of how

13:53

your parents were drilling

13:55

things of right and wrong into your head when

13:57

you were freaking out. But I'm like, we can't.

14:01

He's not able to right now. Right

14:03

now is just about how do we regulate?

14:06

Is that a time in for me, because

14:08

it most of the time is so that I can

14:10

handle it once the calm has

14:12

happened, like maybe we can hold hands or

14:14

have a hug or have a cuddle or draw something.

14:17

And then later maybe

14:20

another time talk about it.

14:22

I'm going to tell the story. This

14:25

is what happened. You got

14:27

so mad, you threw your

14:29

plate on the floor. I got

14:31

crumpy, and we both were

14:34

mad, and then we got

14:36

a hug. We calmed down.

14:38

Now we're reading stories and

14:40

everything's okay, because that's what families

14:43

do. They make everything okay.

14:46

Ah, And let me tell you something. Carol's

14:49

daughter, Alexis is also a

14:51

mom that I'm very close to, and she is

14:53

wonderful. So I have first hand

14:56

experience. If you're listening to this and you're

14:58

like, I don't know, man, and like

15:01

I don't have the patience or the time to really

15:03

do this. First of all, when you reframe

15:06

your mind, it is very

15:08

easy in my experience, and

15:10

my son was not a piece of pie

15:13

at all. He is not, and it's what I love most

15:15

about him. But seeing Alexis

15:17

as a full grown adult who is Carol's

15:20

daughter, and seeing Alexis's daughter

15:22

Carol's grandkids, I'm like, they

15:24

are wonderful, fulfilled

15:27

human beings. So I have firsthand

15:29

knowledge, y'all that this

15:32

is working.

15:33

Except that I want you to do. That's

15:36

not what it looked like when

15:38

Alexis was in preschool,

15:42

she was a highly spirited

15:44

kid. I had absolutely

15:47

no idea. I'm sure I

15:50

made a million mistakes, some

15:52

huge that I'll never

15:54

forget, and somehow

15:58

for one thing, you know, so what helped repair

16:01

so much of that being a grandparent,

16:05

because it's so different, and

16:08

I think for your kids that

16:10

you made a lot of mistakes with when

16:13

they see you repairing

16:16

it through their children and

16:18

by being there for their children in

16:20

a different way, it goes back

16:22

and repairs not only your own

16:25

little childhood it get

16:28

maybe treated that way, but also

16:30

for your children. It

16:33

means that there's repair possible

16:35

in life. And what I

16:37

can say about Alexis is

16:41

your spirited children may tax

16:44

you to the core, but

16:46

their world changers. They

16:49

will fight for justice, they

16:51

will raise valued human

16:53

beings, and that's what

16:55

you want in what's become a very

16:58

tough world.

17:00

I love hearing this. I'm having this memory of

17:02

coming into toddler class that you

17:04

were facilitating, and I

17:07

was so upset because I'll be is a very

17:09

spirited child. I just spent

17:12

so many times of the three

17:14

and four year old years like heavily

17:16

negotiating with a like a lawyer.

17:19

I'm such a people pleaser, and I mean, he's

17:21

literally my perfect opposite

17:23

match, this child, and he

17:25

is not conflict averse. He

17:27

is very stubborn

17:30

and strong willed and opinionated and loved

17:32

to negotiate and loud,

17:34

and he hit a lot of children, and I

17:36

was panicked. I was so panicked,

17:38

and I came to you and I told you these things.

17:41

You were so not worried, and

17:44

that made me not worried. And it just

17:46

you were like just very no held

17:48

space for exactly who he is. And I'll

17:51

never forget it. I was so appreciative,

17:53

and I think actually what you said was

17:56

you know that there's things too. Obviously every

17:59

parent has concerned, but even the parents

18:02

especially who have children who might be listening, who

18:04

are very shy, who don't speak

18:06

up for themselves, or who are

18:08

very slow to warm, and things like that,

18:11

your child is who they are, and you're always

18:13

like terrified about giving them the tools

18:15

they're going to need to get through

18:18

it.

18:18

Right. I actually worry a

18:21

little bit more about the shutdown kids

18:23

than I do about the spirited kids, because

18:25

they're going to take on the

18:28

world and injustice and

18:30

fight for their children and

18:32

in ways that in the end are going

18:34

to serve them so well. But

18:37

I think what helps a shy child

18:40

is acceptance that they're

18:43

observers. My son

18:45

is very different from his sister

18:48

and he's also a wonderful human

18:51

being of whom I'm immensely

18:53

proud. But he always observed,

18:57

and I used to say he didn't do anything

19:00

till he thought he could look cool doing

19:02

it. So

19:04

he was late to walk, and he

19:06

did a lot of I remember his little

19:09

sister would go down the scary

19:11

pole in the park when he still

19:14

was afraid to do it. There's

19:16

a picture I have of them as very

19:18

young children where he's

19:21

bent over and looking worried and anxious,

19:23

and his little sister has got him by

19:25

the hand and she's strutting down

19:27

the beach and she's got him

19:30

there, very close to the stay. But that

19:32

was a very different temperament. He

19:35

needed much smaller

19:37

corrections. And when

19:39

I had Alexis, it was

19:41

so different. I thought, you can't

19:44

judge a parent for being a good

19:46

er bad parent based on

19:48

one child, because they're

19:50

gonna get you with the

19:52

next ones. And

19:55

that's what keeps you humble and

19:58

keeps you honest. You don't know who

20:00

you've got till you get to know them,

20:02

and don't try and make a

20:05

child an adult. I used to

20:07

joke that my son Zachary

20:09

was born at the age of forty two, because

20:12

he was very verbal before

20:14

he moved, and he seemed

20:17

to understand the

20:19

world in a different

20:21

way. But he had his own challenges

20:24

and socializing with kids was

20:26

not easy, and if they got

20:28

in his space, he got overwhelmed

20:31

and acted out. And I thought

20:33

it was a great gift to have two

20:35

very different temperaments because

20:38

it expanded my knowledge

20:40

of children.

20:42

Yes, and I think it's a good note for parents to

20:44

be careful. I hear

20:47

parents make narratives for their

20:49

kids that I'm not sure even one hundred percent

20:51

true. Yet she's got

20:53

a really she's really sickly like disposition.

20:55

She's sick all the time, she catches germs

20:58

all the time. I just hear it, and I'm like, don't

21:00

know if that's good or bad. Just it

21:02

is what it is. Maybe we shouldn't judge it.

21:04

You're better off framing it by your own

21:06

feeling. I get triggered by this

21:09

behavior or that behavior rather

21:12

than a character assessment, because

21:15

it may be a bad day, it

21:17

may be a mood, it may be a

21:19

phase.

21:21

Good God face, something.

21:23

That tells the whole story. I'd

21:25

like to I think my favorite thing to say to parents

21:27

is this is not the end of the story.

21:30

This is the beginning of the

21:32

story.

21:34

This is so helpful Carol. Everyone who's

21:36

listening. Everything is a phase, and Carol

21:38

got me through one of the hardest when Albie was really

21:40

hitting a lot of children. I was up all

21:43

night so upset because obviously I'm a people pleaser,

21:45

and I couldn't believe that I had the kid on the playground that was hitting

21:47

other children, and I'm just apologizing to everyone and

21:49

so scared no one's gonna like me or my kid and

21:52

had to put on my big girl pants and

21:54

learn how to anticipate

21:57

help him through that.

21:58

Stay close, put your hand right

22:00

there. I'm not going to let you hit,

22:02

but I will help you. Tell me what

22:05

you need. I want that toy.

22:08

I'm going to help you wait, and this is

22:10

how we can get it. When you get

22:12

done with it, will you please give it to

22:14

Albie? And then

22:16

now I'm going to hold your hand and help you wait.

22:19

You know how many times have you seen moms

22:22

at the park say things to their kids

22:24

from the bench and the kids don't hear

22:26

it, don't listen when you

22:28

speak. Make sure that it

22:31

has impact. It means follow

22:34

through. It means you

22:36

can't say things like play nights

22:39

or use your words. If they

22:41

could use their words at those times,

22:44

they would, they generally have them.

22:47

But they're at the moment that they're feeling

22:49

threatened or fight or flight

22:52

that chemical kicks in. They

22:55

just defend, and they defend

22:57

by hitting because they don't

22:59

know what to do. That's when you

23:02

move in and you help. I'm

23:04

here, I gotcha.

23:06

I can't tell you like being on

23:08

this other side of it. Like he's five and a half now,

23:10

and the years I spent I'm

23:12

sticking close by. I'm going to be putting.

23:14

I'm putting my hand up because I won't let you hit

23:16

someone's body. What do you need?

23:18

How can I help you? Would you like this toy? For

23:21

years I did this. It was exhausting.

23:23

I'm not gonna lie. However,

23:26

I prepared my son for those

23:28

years because now he's got a little sister. And

23:31

let me tell you something. She hits him,

23:33

and he does not. He holds

23:36

his hands by his side and he yells

23:38

sometimes in her face, like a big guttural

23:40

scream, and he says, but I'm not hitting her

23:43

because I'm not going to hit her, but I'm gonna yell

23:45

because I'm so frustrated that she just hit

23:47

me. Good for him, and I'm like, yeah,

23:51

I worked my ass off for.

23:52

This, that's right, and that's the payoff.

23:55

That's not See. It wasn't the end

23:57

of the story, Sadie.

23:59

Nope, I worked my ass

24:01

off and it literally pays itself

24:03

back every day. And I tell him, remember

24:06

how we taught you how to use your hands and how to treat

24:08

other people's bodies. Now we're teaching this, Verra,

24:10

We're teaching this to your sister. It

24:12

has been such a blessing. I can't tell

24:14

you to have a leader like you and the

24:17

advice like that to even know what

24:19

to do. What

24:30

should parents look for

24:32

in a nursery school?

24:33

In your opinion, I have a bias,

24:36

But what I think very clearly

24:40

is that play is the work of

24:42

children, and what children

24:45

in preschool should be doing is playing

24:48

because it's how they make sense of the world.

24:51

It's how they work out things in their emotional

24:54

life. It's how they make sense of

24:56

medical trauma. It's how

24:58

they make sense of divorce

25:01

or travel.

25:02

Or having a sibling.

25:04

Yes, absolutely having

25:06

a sibling. They have a whole

25:09

bunch of years to be academic

25:12

scholars if that's their thing,

25:14

or work with their hands and do something

25:17

wonderful if it's not their thing. But

25:20

there's only one time in life

25:23

when play can be the priority

25:26

and be supported. And when you look

25:29

around and see how many adults

25:31

can't play, you

25:34

can guess what happened to

25:36

them too early. There's no Studies

25:39

show that there is no advantage

25:43

to introducing right and

25:45

wrong academic work in

25:47

the preschool years. A good

25:50

play based preschool will have all

25:52

of the things that they need to get ready

25:55

for learning. They'll

25:57

have the shapes and the toys

25:59

and the puzzles, and that thing together

26:03

that will sustain blocks

26:06

our preparation for math, dress

26:09

up corner as a preparation for life.

26:12

The puzzles and manipulative toys are

26:14

a preparation for reading and writing,

26:18

and they are Artists will

26:20

come from being allowed

26:22

to express themselves in

26:25

all art media without

26:27

a right way to do it. My

26:30

advice would be look

26:32

for a place where kids are happy, engaged

26:36

themselves in my work

26:39

with children by going to their homes

26:41

privately. I've observed a lot of schools.

26:44

Now you have to remember I taught at the same

26:46

nursery school for over forty

26:49

years. I didn't visit

26:51

a lot of schools, and it's been eye

26:53

opening, and some of it has been very

26:56

depressing. And in

26:59

visiting a school where the emphasis

27:02

was language immersion, I

27:04

saw a lot of shutdown kids

27:07

and kids whose bodies

27:09

were you could tell aching to

27:11

play and if they said

27:13

the wrong thing, they were told it was wrong

27:16

and had to do it again. Maybe

27:19

that's very important a few years

27:21

from then. But in

27:24

preschool, how many kids

27:26

learn another language by having it

27:28

be around them, or having a nanny who

27:31

speaks it, or having parents

27:33

who speak it. There's all kinds of

27:35

ways to get there. But

27:38

honor play in the preschool

27:40

years would be my advice.

27:43

I would like to honor play for like way

27:45

longer, right.

27:46

So would I. But then life kicks

27:48

in a lot of outdoor

27:51

stuff, a lot of acceptance

27:53

of different kinds of kids. How

27:56

do they handle rambunctious children

28:00

who maybe don't have perfect

28:02

impulse control. Do you

28:04

let them mesh up and

28:06

then correct them or do you

28:08

take their hand and get ahead of it. How

28:11

are the adults responding to children?

28:15

How are they responding to

28:17

the active wild

28:19

child? How are they responding

28:22

to the shy and introverted child.

28:24

Everything is relationship

28:27

based. Are they willing to

28:29

make relationships?

28:31

I have seen amazing stuff in my all

28:34

the tours I did, but like you said, like watching

28:37

children who might have lots of sensory

28:39

things, kids like my kid who is

28:41

like, please don't sing Happy Birthday, you have to whisper

28:43

it. I'm gonna fly off the handle if I near a

28:45

car honk, or a kid that might

28:48

be slightly on the spectrum. There's

28:50

a kid that I'LBI grew up with

28:52

that Carol knows, and she

28:55

was so shy

28:57

and one of those kids that took months of crying

29:01

over the separation of her mom. And

29:03

thank god the teachers were trained to

29:05

be able to attach themselves to her. And now

29:08

she has blossomed like a flower like

29:10

none I've seen. I can't even remember

29:12

that shy girl. Not to say that she's misperformer

29:16

or anything, but it thank god she was in a

29:18

place that honored and met her where she

29:20

exactly was and just held

29:23

her hand and helped her through that.

29:25

Remember that this is the first time

29:27

preschool they're in community

29:30

without mom and dad. It has

29:32

to be a safe place. It

29:35

has to be a place that accepts who they

29:37

are. And that's the other thing I

29:39

want to say, building on that, is make

29:41

sure the separation process is

29:43

gentle. Be weary of

29:46

a school that says, oh, drop

29:48

them off the first day, they'll cry and they'll

29:50

get over it. No,

29:53

that's not what happens. They may

29:55

stop crying, but that means they shut

29:57

down. That doesn't

29:59

mean they resolved it. You want

30:01

to look at separation in the face,

30:04

say goodbye to your mommy. If

30:07

you're sad, I'll help you. Wow, that's why

30:09

I'm here. I'm gonna help you.

30:12

That's how you make a relationship with this

30:14

kid. You're not afraid of their

30:16

hardest feelings. You're

30:18

not afraid if they're sad. You're never gonna

30:21

say, don't cry. You're

30:23

gonna say your feelings are safe with

30:25

me. I'm gonna help you.

30:27

I'm here speaking

30:29

of that same topic for those listening

30:31

who might be on the precipice of a big

30:34

transition, whether it's be starting nursery school

30:36

or for me, starting kindergarten, which I honestly think

30:38

is gonna be way harder for me than my son. Any

30:41

advice on preparing

30:44

how we can lovingly prepare

30:46

our children for this once we have made

30:49

the choice of where they will be going to

30:51

school. What advice do you

30:53

have for parents on

30:56

that next journey.

30:58

One of the things I know about the school

31:00

where your kids go is

31:02

that they will help you with that. They

31:04

start preparing a

31:07

few months before they start

31:09

identifying the graduates. They

31:12

start talking about what the

31:14

changes are going to be. One

31:17

of the techniques that I love

31:20

to use Katie with preschool

31:22

kids is to make books. You

31:25

take plain white paper, you staple

31:27

them together, you make stick figure drawings,

31:30

and you talk about what's going to happen. There's

31:33

a wonderful printed book called Will I

31:35

Have a Friend?

31:37

I don't know this book writing

31:39

it on my list.

31:40

I don't know the author off hand, but

31:43

it's easily googled and ordered.

31:45

I think it's about preschool, but

31:47

it's perfect also for kindergarten

31:50

because the changes. Am I going to

31:53

be safe there? Am I going to have

31:55

a friend there? Is it going to be different?

31:57

First of all, allow the sad feelings about

31:59

leaving the school they're going to, and

32:03

then reassure

32:06

them that you're going to be with them

32:09

at the beginning, that it's going to

32:11

be hard, and that they will be okay

32:13

because look how well they did in nursery

32:16

school. They're going to have the skills,

32:18

they're going to make friends. It

32:20

may feel uncomfortable

32:23

for a while, but it's going to be fine,

32:25

and we're going to help you at home, because

32:27

that's what families do, help

32:30

each other.

32:31

Will I have a Friend? By Miriam Cohen

32:33

and Lillian Hoban.

32:35

Yes, wonderful, wonderful

32:37

book, and I am.

32:38

Getting that immediately.

32:41

I think my biggest thing selfishly

32:43

asking I feel that our nursery

32:45

school has completely prepared him

32:48

socially. He's just

32:50

great with conflict and

32:53

with other people and groups, Thank heavens.

32:56

However, I'm really curious to see

32:58

because the drop off is going to be very

33:01

different. It's like line, but would

33:03

they begin?

33:04

Are you there at all?

33:06

For yees?

33:07

Yeah?

33:07

Yeah. I walk him into I walk him to

33:09

his classroom door with all the parents, and

33:12

he has a bunch of playdates leading

33:14

up to it with other kids in his class,

33:16

where he's met the principal and we've

33:19

actually I've cheated a little bit, and I

33:21

keep hanging out with other kids who I know who

33:24

go there and have gone with their mothers to pick them

33:26

up like without me, so he's been

33:28

on campus.

33:30

That's wonderful.

33:31

I'm like, let's just have it be And

33:33

he's pumped, like he's completely excited.

33:36

But he says, I'm two things at once. He

33:38

says, I'm excited and I'm nervous.

33:40

I love that, you know. That's there were usedupid

33:43

book that I used to read to the kids when

33:45

I taught nursery school called double Dip

33:47

Feelings, And

33:49

that's another great one. You can hold

33:52

two feelings at the same time. I'm

33:54

a little bit scared and a little bit excited.

34:07

I was thinking, I mean, we're talking about

34:09

the transition into preschool, transition

34:11

into kindergarten. What about other transitions

34:14

like mommy's got to go back to work

34:16

or has a big job, or someone's

34:19

going away. How do you help parents

34:21

with those kinds of transitions.

34:24

For preschool children, I

34:27

tell them maybe a

34:29

week before, not

34:31

months before, because they can't handle

34:34

it. But a week before. That's

34:36

when making a book comes in really

34:38

handy pictures of an airplane,

34:41

pictures of a destination, or

34:43

we send the book with a reunion.

34:46

Then mommy's done and mommy comes

34:48

back, or we go away,

34:51

we come back. That old preschool book,

34:53

You go Away, You Come Back, ends

34:55

with now we're taking a big trip, we

34:58

will come back. And so your

35:00

own book follows that theme

35:03

of reunion.

35:04

What's the name of that book? I don't even know.

35:06

You go Away, You Come Back. They have it

35:08

at the school, many copies,

35:11

I think, So you can either get

35:13

it or you can borrow it.

35:15

We made it Adam. Of course, my husband's so

35:17

good attack but when he booked a job in Budapeshe

35:19

last year, and I was so scared

35:22

because he'd be back and forth for like eight months.

35:24

And we made this book where we printed out like what

35:26

is hotel looked like and on a plane,

35:28

and what Hungarian food looked like,

35:30

and then Daddy comes home and then we're going

35:32

to go to Budapeste, and then it was like pictures of

35:34

what Albi would be doing in Budapeste.

35:37

That's exactly right. That's how

35:39

you prepare, and there's always

35:41

your reunion at the end. And then for the

35:43

person at home, if

35:46

they're staying at home while you go,

35:49

it's helpful to cross out

35:51

the calendar, cross

35:53

out every single day, how many more

35:55

sleeps, And sometimes

35:58

with preschool, FaceTime really helps

36:01

and sometimes it makes it harder,

36:04

and it's hard to know if you can

36:06

take the potential tears

36:10

in FaceTime. It's probably helpful

36:12

for your kids to see you, to

36:15

hear that you miss them and that

36:17

you will be home soon. As

36:19

the kid's dad, my grandchildren's

36:22

dad travels a lot, and

36:24

that kind of thing really helps. Strangely

36:27

enough, I've heard so many

36:29

people say mothers feel

36:32

horribly guilty about those things

36:34

and dads don't.

36:38

Yeah, but it's often a

36:40

male thing. Work is important to

36:42

them, and it's probably has

36:45

in some ways equal importance

36:47

for whatever reason, and moms are

36:50

always torn that they're

36:52

doing a terrible thing and they're

36:54

not. It's what they do. You're modeling

36:56

for your kids how to

36:58

have a fulfilled and creative

37:01

life. And as long as you have

37:04

people sustaining them

37:06

that you trust and

37:08

that they feel comfortable with, they're

37:10

going to be fine. I

37:12

made a mistake once when my kids

37:14

were little, for all kinds of reasons

37:17

that I won't get into, and I took a trip

37:19

with my husband that was way too

37:22

long to leave. Alexis

37:24

was twenty one months old. It probably

37:27

took me maybe twenty

37:29

years to repair that one.

37:32

Carol No and I wouldn't

37:34

make that decision today given

37:37

what I now know. But I

37:39

was fallible, I was vulnerable.

37:42

It seemed important at the time. Who

37:45

knows. My in laws

37:47

took care of them. They were okay,

37:50

but that look, when I

37:52

got back of who are

37:55

You? It wasn't was thirty

37:57

days. It was way too

37:59

long for a

38:02

twenty one month old to not

38:04

check in. And remember they didn't have all the technology

38:07

back then, so I couldn't do FaceTime

38:11

and all that stuff. Anyway,

38:13

if you tell ask Alexis now,

38:16

she'll probably tell you that we've

38:18

repaired that, but she'll

38:20

also tell you how hard it was, and

38:23

I have to be willing to hear.

38:25

Yeah, yeah, gosh, that's great.

38:28

Okay, this is what I think is coming down the

38:30

pipe, selfishly for me, kids

38:33

playing doctors with friends, self exploring

38:36

their bodies, What the hell

38:38

is about to happen to my life and how do

38:40

I get through it.

38:42

That's a very normal and

38:44

natural part of development.

38:46

There's a reason that nursery

38:49

schools have co ed bathrooms

38:52

so kids can see each

38:54

other, identify each

38:56

other, and enjoy

38:58

looking at other genitalia

39:01

and figuring out what it is. When

39:04

they are touching each other

39:06

and figuring that stuff out. They're

39:09

exploring in a natural

39:11

way. Our society freaks

39:15

out and makes it

39:17

something else. Here. We have a hyper

39:20

sexualized society that shows

39:22

all these images, and yet

39:24

when kids do what in a tribe

39:27

touch would have been natural. They

39:31

then we can't understand

39:33

it and we freak out. So you

39:36

can say, don't make it wrong,

39:39

but if you're uncomfortable with it, you

39:41

can don't put it. First of all, you tell them

39:43

don't put things inside your body

39:45

because it's not safe and it could hurt

39:48

you. But don't make them wrong for

39:50

being curious and for

39:52

being interested. You can say,

39:54

yep, vaginas are great

39:56

to look at, but they're private.

40:00

Right. If a kid is touching

40:02

themselves in the

40:04

thin out in the household,

40:06

you can say, I can see that. That feels

40:08

really good, and it's also private,

40:11

So go in your room and enjoy it well

40:14

when you come back out. It's not an

40:16

outside thing, it's not a family

40:19

thing. But it's enjoyable and it feels

40:21

good, and you can do it in your room.

40:24

That's so great. There's a girl

40:26

in our school who did

40:29

that a lot. It was really interesting to see and really cool

40:31

to watch like her not be shamed

40:33

for that. It was obviously like a stress

40:36

relieving thing. She was fiddling

40:38

around, and after a little bit, you know, they were

40:40

like, okay, well you could do that when you get home in your

40:42

room. It was really interesting to

40:44

watch them not make her feel

40:46

like she was in trouble or that it

40:49

was bad.

40:50

Very important, very important,

40:52

because we do all kinds

40:54

of things to stimulate kids,

40:57

just in billboards and pictures and

40:59

all kinds of things, and then we make them

41:01

wrong for exploring their own bodies.

41:03

We don't have to do that, but

41:06

we can also teach them to

41:08

be socially acceptable.

41:11

What do you do for kids

41:13

with sensory stuff? Which I never even

41:16

knew was a thing growing up. I'd never heard of

41:18

it.

41:19

It's more and more of a thing as

41:21

they are. More and more neuro divergent

41:24

kids are being identified,

41:27

and some kids who aren't necessarily

41:30

neurodiversion also have sensory

41:32

issues. Fortunately, there's a

41:35

wonderful thing called OT

41:38

and OT can

41:41

emphasize sensory integration.

41:44

So if you think it's a real problem,

41:47

if your child is consistently

41:50

overwhelmed with sensory issues,

41:52

clothes or uncomfortable to tags

41:54

on shirts, bother them. They

41:57

have to have socks a certain way.

42:00

They don't think

42:02

about adding OT

42:05

to your schedule because I've

42:07

seen it be incredibly helpful

42:10

to children, and they're bursting

42:13

at the seams these clinics. That's

42:15

what Alexis does now, so

42:17

I'm familiar. They've never been

42:20

so many kids. I think some of

42:22

it may be anxiety from the pandemic.

42:25

I don't even know, but there's a

42:27

tremendous amount of it. So

42:29

there's things that you can do to address

42:32

that. And again it's something

42:34

that they will learn to manage. So

42:37

what I say to parents is, if your

42:40

kids need a little help in this area.

42:42

I don't know a human being in this world

42:44

that gets through this journey of

42:46

life without help. Somewhere along

42:49

the.

42:49

Way, I went to OT. I

42:51

needed help because I couldn't take one

42:53

more hair washing

42:56

of my son. He wouldn't

42:58

if you try to shampoo his hair, or brush

43:00

his hair or give him a haircut.

43:03

You have to wash your kid's head a

43:05

couple times a week. It's like I

43:07

was pushing, and I'm a virgo

43:09

who loves cleanliness, and if you

43:12

wash his hair, brush his hair, it's like you're killing

43:14

him with a fork in the eyeball. It is

43:17

a horrible experience for me,

43:20

and I was like, I got to talk to somebody

43:22

who can help me. I mean, there's gonna

43:24

be a lot more hair washing in our future and I

43:26

can't do this. Did they help you? Oh

43:29

yeah, I got these awesome

43:32

head massage er things that coached

43:34

him through touch in his head in a way

43:36

that he felt okay. We were very communicative.

43:38

He was much like it

43:41

was such so much about self autonomy, like learning

43:43

how to wash his own hair, what was good.

43:46

And also you then reminding him,

43:48

remember you, I know you don't like

43:50

this, it's necessary to do

43:52

it. Remember your strategies, what

43:55

helps you? What do you like? What

43:58

don't you like?

43:59

Where would you like?

44:00

I'm going to tell you what. I'm going to pour water

44:03

over your head so you can close your

44:05

eyes, or do you want

44:07

to pour it yourself? Get a little picture

44:09

and let him do it himself.

44:12

It was wild watching his sister in

44:14

the time with him, because she's couldn't

44:16

give a shit, Like she's looking at him having and

44:18

she's like, what's happening? And that's when I

44:20

was like, oh, this seems

44:23

extra, this is something? Is

44:25

this is not?

44:27

He's more sensorally sensitive.

44:29

And I knew he had noise sound stuff

44:31

and anyway, it ot was great. I

44:33

love that piece of advice.

44:34

I can't recommend it enough.

44:37

I think it's wonderful.

44:39

What's the best preschool tip that

44:42

you've received?

44:43

To honor the play of children as

44:47

important work and

44:49

don't interrupt it unless it's absolutely

44:52

necessary. Do what you can to support

44:54

it and sustain it.

44:57

What's the best preschool tip that

44:59

you've given?

45:00

The tip that I would give people

45:02

most raising preschool kids

45:05

is keep a twinkle in your heart,

45:09

keep a sense of humor. These

45:12

stages will pass. They're okay,

45:15

You're okay, smile,

45:19

it's okay.

45:21

If that isn't a tip for life, I

45:23

don't know what is. That's how

45:25

I feel about it. What remains

45:28

undone that you've wanted to get

45:30

done for years? When it comes

45:32

to educating preschool children.

45:34

They'll always be

45:37

children and parents who are

45:39

struggling. The work will

45:41

never be done. To

45:44

keep doing it till I no longer

45:47

walk on this earth.

45:49

This question terrifies me because

45:51

God willing, I'm your age, and I get to ask

45:54

myself this looking back at raising your own kids,

45:56

what would you do the same and what would

45:58

you change other than that thirty

46:00

day trip.

46:02

That's for sure. I remember that. I

46:05

wish I guess that old saying

46:07

you can't know what you know till you know

46:10

it. I didn't know

46:13

the things I know now. I learned

46:15

so much from the nursery school when

46:17

my own children went there, the

46:20

same school our kids are going to.

46:22

That I made it my life's work to

46:25

continue that work.

46:28

I definitely wish

46:30

I had known a lot of that stuff

46:32

earlier. I think I would have been

46:35

a much better mom. So I

46:37

get to be a better grandma

46:39

and my kids get to see it,

46:41

and that's important too.

46:44

Oh I love that. What

46:46

is Did you even have a registry

46:49

when you were pregnant? Was that a thing?

46:51

It was not a thing for me, but

46:54

I was recently living in California,

46:57

I didn't really have I

46:59

was away from family. I didn't

47:01

have a whole support system

47:05

then about kids. I

47:07

didn't but in the but I've

47:09

seen it through the years as my grandkids

47:12

are born. And the best

47:14

thing that I can imagine giving

47:17

children is books,

47:19

books, books.

47:20

Books, books, And

47:22

I just wrote down three from this podcast

47:24

that I don't know. Thanks to Carol,

47:27

you need to give me a list. What

47:29

advice would you like to give to children

47:32

in general as they get closer to nursery

47:34

school in kindergarten.

47:36

Age, That Mommy will stay

47:38

with them, That they will until

47:41

they are comfortable. That

47:43

it might be hard, and

47:46

it might they might have all kinds

47:48

of feelings and it's all going to be okay

47:51

because you're going to pick a nursery

47:53

school, hopefully

47:55

with teachers that will make them

47:58

feel safe and make them feel and

48:00

normalize that it's absolutely

48:03

normal to feel anxious. And

48:05

also another tip would be don't

48:07

tell them the end of the story before

48:10

they begin. In other

48:13

words, don't emphasize soon

48:15

I will leave you there, say

48:17

we're going to start school. I'm

48:20

going to be there. Yeah, it'll be okay.

48:23

Yeah, that's really good. Don't play the end at the beginning,

48:25

right, Okay. We always ask our guests

48:27

this question. Finish this sentence.

48:30

Parenthood is the

48:32

most humbling experience

48:36

you will ever have.

48:38

You can be great at your career, and

48:41

this will bring you to your knees.

48:44

It is so humbling. It's

48:46

a road, and parenting

48:48

is so hard, but it is so rewarding

48:51

if you can get

48:54

yourself back up from falling

48:56

down on your knees.

48:57

It's all about heading back

48:59

up. It's all about

49:02

that. And you're learning.

49:04

You say to your kids, we're learning how

49:06

to be a family of four. We

49:09

didn't know we were a family of three.

49:11

Now we're a family of four. I'm learning

49:13

how to be a mom. I'm doing the

49:16

best I can. I'm learning.

49:18

This was so helpful. I know all of our listeners

49:21

are just like shouting from the rooftops

49:23

and have such practical tips,

49:27

advice and thoughts that they can take

49:29

with them from today.

49:30

Thank you. Can I give you my email

49:32

in case people want to get in please tell

49:35

us all right, it's all lowercase

49:37

provost p r vosg

49:42

CB at gmail.

49:45

Provost CB all lowercase

49:47

at gmail dot com. I'm so

49:50

grateful for the time, and I couldn't have had

49:52

a better guest with my children just entering

49:54

and exiting my closet as much as they

49:56

are.

49:57

That means a lot. At this point

49:59

in my life, I look back, and

50:01

that's what means so much.

50:04

To have made a difference in one

50:07

life means who have succeeded.

50:10

Oh my goodness, Carol I think and

50:12

hear you in my head daily day,

50:16

and all of the phrases that you've said, even

50:18

on this podcast, I hear you daily, and I'm

50:20

so grateful to you.

50:22

Thank you, Katie.

50:29

Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.

50:31

I want to hear from you. Let's

50:34

chat questions, comments, concerns.

50:36

Let me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib

50:39

at Shondaland dot com.

50:43

Katie's Crib is a production of Shondaland Audio

50:45

in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more

50:47

podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio

50:50

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

50:52

to your favorite shows.