0:18

This is Keeping It 101, a

0:18

killjoys introduction to

0:21

religion podcast in 2022-2023.

0:21

Our work is made possible

0:25

through both a UVM reach grant

0:25

and a loose AAR advancing public

0:29

scholarship grant. We're

0:29

grateful to live, teach, and

0:32

record on the current ancestral

0:32

and unseeded lands of the

0:35

Abenaki, Wabanaki and Aucocisco

0:35

peoples. As always, you can find

0:39

material ways to support

0:39

indigenous communities on our

0:41

website.

0:43

What's up nerds? Hi,

0:43

hello, I'm Megan Goodwin, a

0:46

scholar of American religions

0:46

race, gender, and politics.

0:49

Hi, hello. I'm Ilyse

0:49

Moorgenstein Fuerst historian of

0:51

religion, Islam, race, and

0:51

racialization and South Asia.

0:55

How's it going Megan?

0:56

Oh, you know, it's going,

0:56

like the dude I abide.

1:00

Glad to hear it. Well, as

1:00

you know, today's episode is an

1:05

"INCORRECT!" Incorrect, where we

1:05

kindly but firmly insist that

1:10

religion does more and different

1:10

work then our nerds might think

1:14

that it does On today, we want

1:14

to challenge some basic

1:20

assumptions about Jihad.

1:23

Yeah, yeah, we do.

1:24

One of those, you know,

1:24

overly politicized words that

1:27

folks use and have legitimately

1:27

no idea what they're saying.

1:31

Yeah, yeah. Fucking jihad

1:31

on that.

1:35

Stop waging jihad, we're

1:35

in the first minute of the

1:39

podcast, and you're already

1:39

doing some damage.

1:45

Doing some Eddie Izzard,

1:45

thank you very much. All right.

1:47

All right. No jihad on Jihad

1:47

except maybe jihad on Jihad.

1:51

Anyway, what do folks get wrong?

1:51

I should say incorrect, when it

1:56

comes to Jihad?

1:57

I'm so glad you asked Megan!

2:01

There that's the other

2:01

one.

2:04

Okay, I'll stick with

2:04

"incorrect". Here's what folks

2:07

are doing incorrectly when it

2:07

comes to jihad, not correct.

2:14

First and foremost, they think

2:14

incorrectly that Jihad means an

2:19

infinite, unending, and

2:19

mandatory war by Muslims against

2:26

I'm gonna say anyone who's not

2:26

Muslim, all non Muslims,

2:29

Yeah yeah, onstant

2:29

always. Ya know, so incorrect to

2:33

assume that Muslims are waging

2:33

infinity war on everyone. This

2:39

is not a Marvel movie. No.

2:41

All right, incorrect.

2:41

Point number two: Jihad is a

2:44

preoccupation of Muslims

2:44

throughout all time, and every

2:48

single place Muslims have lived

2:48

and continue to live. So not

2:52

only is jihad, number one

2:52

incorrect, infinite, unending

2:55

mandatory war but also it is the

2:55

only thing Muslims have ever

2:59

thought about in the history of

2:59

Islam.

3:01

Or cared about it's shocking frankly that they managed to write anything down

3:03

because so obsessed with the

3:06

jihad.

3:07

Yeah, incorrect. The

3:07

third and final thing that

3:12

people get wrong every single

3:12

frickin time we talk about

3:16

is a very simple

3:16

equation. It's gonna be mind

3:19

blowing Megan...

3:20

all right, I'm, I'm

3:20

braced. I'm ready. Tell me the

3:23

incorrect equation...

3:24

That Jihad equals

3:24

terrorism.

3:27

That's not true?

3:28

No you sweet summer

3:28

child, that is not true.

3:38

Megan, you ignorant slut.

3:38

Not what Jihad means at all.

3:44

Oh my god. Oh my god. I

3:44

couldn't even respond to that it

3:47

hurt my soul so much.

3:48

Sorry, I went old school

3:48

SNL. Apparently I'm just doing

3:51

bits. I'm just doing bits. I'm

3:51

sorry. People are really dumb

3:53

about this word. It makes me

3:53

jokey. Apparently. Sorry, go

3:56

ahead.

3:57

No one could have

3:57

expected you or the Inquisition.

4:00

So let's let's roam through

4:00

these incorrect assumptions.

4:06

Because I've got to be honest,

4:06

I'm so...one of the reasons that

4:10

I decided to do that you had

4:10

episodes that people have asked

4:13

for for a long time is frankly,

4:13

because I'm sick of having this

4:18

exact conversation. I'm sick of

4:18

the word jihad. In, no small

4:24

part because like the early

4:24

aughts and 2010s. For me, were

4:29

just all Islamic studies all the

4:29

time. Yeah. All, Ohmid fondly

4:34

calls "squiggle languages" in

4:34

airport. And as you know, my

4:40

first book is more or less about

4:40

jihad. And so doing that

4:44

research internationally meant,

4:44

like a solid seven years where

4:48

the TSA was profiling me as if I

4:48

wasn't a small white lady from

4:52

New Jersey,

4:53

I mean you're kind of swarthy. I could see it.

4:54

I don't know, it is you

4:54

know what a low point is. A low

4:58

point is when you're carrying,

4:58

expressed breast milk and

5:01

holding in your bag, because

5:01

you're a dumbass, a book in

5:05

Persian. And the TSA guard is

5:05

like,"we think that your breast

5:10

milk is explosive" and that is

5:10

not the sad part. The sad part

5:14

is is that a turbaned Sikh man

5:14

put his arm around me because I

5:17

was almost crying because they

5:17

like, because they like poured

5:19

out my breast milk. And this man

5:19

who has been racially profiled

5:23

in far more violent ways, is

5:23

like it's okay, my daughter,

5:27

it's fine. And I was like, I was

5:27

like, nope, I'm gonna. I'm gonna

5:32

my leaky boobs and I are gonna

5:32

cry at the TSA line. Yeah, it

5:35

was horrible

5:37

I'm tearing, I'm tearing up.

5:39

It was like girl, like,

5:39

I'm a dumb white girl, but also

5:42

like their litmus testing my

5:42

breast milk and you're just

5:45

going through my bag of Persian

5:45

and like, I can't

5:48

process...Anyway, the longer the

5:48

short of it is, I don't don't

5:53

like the TSA, fuck all cops, and

5:53

don't be near me at the TSA

5:57

because I am often randomly

5:57

selected for fun times because

6:02

of this word jihad. Yeah, yeah.

6:02

So Goodwain, efore we jump in,

6:06

let me ask you, let's play

6:06

pedagogy for a second.

6:08

Okay!

6:16

What, I know you're an expert on religion, and that you've written a lot actually

6:18

about race and Islam, and what's

6:21

the now the US? But like, What

6:21

do you know about jihad?

6:26

Okay, so I am delighted

6:26

to be identified as an expert on

6:29

religion, and you're right, I actually have written quite a lot about race and Islam in

6:30

what's now the United States. Guess how much I've written about jihad. I think this is a trick

6:32

question. I don't know. Zero, Zero things about jihad,

6:33

because you know what, it's

6:44

actually not a thing that gets

6:44

talked about a whole lot, if

6:49

you're looking at people doing

6:49

Islam in what is now the United

6:52

States like this is not an

6:52

operative category. So what I

6:55

know about jihad is it means

6:55

struggle. If I understand in

6:59

Arabic, it is usually an

6:59

internal struggle to be in right

7:04

relationship with God, and

7:04

others. And honestly, the the

7:07

one that always sticks in my

7:07

head is I have this video that I

7:10

use in class when we talk about

7:10

Islam in my global religions

7:13

class. That is called "A Land

7:13

Called Paradise". And it makes

7:16

me cry every time and I think we

7:16

have included it in the show

7:19

notes before and I will do it

7:19

again. But there's this like

7:22

seven year old Desi boy who's

7:22

writing this message. And these

7:27

are all of the people in the

7:27

video are writing messages about

7:30

things that they want other

7:30

Americans to know about them as

7:33

Muslim Americans. And this

7:33

little seven year old guy just

7:36

wrote down broccoli is my Jihad.

7:36

It makes me really happy.

7:43

That's like really

7:43

excellent. Is that secretly my

7:46

kid?

7:50

But like, that's it. That's that's what I know about jihad, which is to say very

7:51

little at all, because it's not

7:56

a an important category for any

7:56

of the folks that I work with or

8:00

on. So,

8:02

yeah, it's really only

8:02

and like, I'm going to underline

8:04

a few things that you said the

8:04

first is, is actually the last

8:06

bit. It's only an important

8:06

category for most Muslims,

8:10

specifically the Muslims living

8:10

in European and American

8:15

contexts. It is an issue for

8:15

them as like a defense strategy,

8:19

right? Not as like, like, like,

8:19

all of the white people in their

8:22

neighborhood are asking them

8:22

about Jihad every five minutes.

8:26

And so that is where Muslims

8:26

have learned to have like your

8:31

stock three sentence answer to

8:31

escape potential violence,

8:36

whether that's like emotional

8:36

violence or like physical

8:38

violence, right? Like that is

8:38

the place we see Jihad come up.

8:43

And we see white people,

8:43

particularly white, Christian,

8:47

American, frankly, Republican,

8:47

though not exclusively,

8:51

republican lawakers, putting

8:51

forward things like we forbid

8:55

jihad in our like state

8:55

constitution, and you're like,

8:59

and all the Muslims are like, "I don't know what the fuck you're talking about". Like, that's not

9:01

what the fuck does that mean?

9:02

That's not a thing. But

9:02

you see, legislatures do this.

9:06

Like with its twin word Sharia,

9:06

which we're not going to get

9:09

into. Let me underline today,

9:09

not on today, let me get

9:12

underlined the other thing you

9:12

said, which is that Jihad

9:14

literally means "struggle". So

9:14

I'm going to quote someone here,

9:18

which I know is not usually our

9:18

jam, but it's my favorite

9:20

sentence about Jihad ever, from

9:20

historian Aisha Jala, who says,

9:26

quote, "few concepts have been

9:26

subjected to more consistent

9:30

distortion than the Arabic word

9:30

'jihad'" end quote. One of my

9:34

favorite lines because it is

9:34

legit true. There's not one word

9:37

in that that's not true.

9:39

That is correct.

9:41

It is correct. Literally,

9:41

it means to strive or just

9:45

struggle as in like the struggle

9:45

is real as in I strive against

9:49

all odds or as in like, I strive

9:49

slash struggle slash work hard

9:54

to achieve my goal.

9:57

Even if that goal is just

9:57

just eating the broccoli

10:00

Yeah, sometimes broccoli

10:00

is your jihad, particularly if

10:04

you're a small, small child. I

10:04

feel that solidarity to you

10:08

small child People become obsessed with

10:16

jihad, not recently. I want you

10:19

to hear that people think it's

10:19

like a post 911 mishegoss

10:23

craziness. And it's not, it is

10:23

an obsession of particularly

10:28

imperialists and colonists in

10:28

the 18th and especially the 19th

10:32

century, where they start

10:32

defining jihad as "holy war" in

10:36

English and in like, cognate

10:36

"holy war" in French and German.

10:40

Hmm. So I hear Western

10:40

European forces distorting this

10:45

concept as we get the concept of

10:45

like nation states and

10:49

imperialism in its modern

10:49

context. Interesting.

10:53

Ding, ding, ding!

10:55

It's almost like I read your book or something.

10:56

It's almost like you read

10:56

my entire book but holy war

11:00

becomes such a prominent

11:00

definition that if you put it in

11:04

your browser today gang Oh, God,

11:04

that is the first thing that

11:07

comes up. Holy war equals jihad,

11:07

Jihad equals holy war. You do

11:11

not get, "this means struggle",

11:11

you do not get jihad is like a

11:15

popular name for children of a

11:15

certain age, particularly South

11:19

African Muslims in the apartheid

11:19

struggle, right? Because you

11:22

named your children after the

11:22

struggle after the struggle, so

11:27

but now those are exactly the

11:27

folks were like, I can't fly on

11:29

a plane because my name is jihad.

11:32

Wow, that's beautiful and

11:32

exhausting and heartbreaking.

11:37

And I hate it and love it. And,

11:37

and it's just this one word.

11:41

It's just one word. You

11:41

also said Goodwin. A thing that

11:45

was correct, even though you are

11:45

not an expert on jihad, is that

11:49

there's this understanding of

11:49

like, greater and lesser jihad,

11:53

which is the way that like,

11:53

frankly, white people divide

11:56

this shit up like, like Muslim

11:56

theorists, outside of the modern

12:00

period where they're answering

12:00

all these colonizers are not

12:04

the greater jihad, this is like

12:08

you're good person, this is the

12:08

Greater One, you're striving

12:12

against the ego, you're getting

12:12

right with God, you're getting

12:16

right with your community. This

12:16

is where folks really like

12:19

philosophize about jihad as an

12:19

operative part of their life. It

12:23

is things like maybe I should

12:23

spend less money. Or maybe I

12:27

should be less jealous of my

12:27

neighbors. Or, you know, I've

12:31

been a real asshole to my mom.

12:31

The greater jihad for me is like

12:35

not being so impatient all the time.

12:37

Woff, that struggle is

12:37

very real for 100%. Solid, not

12:43

just with your mom mom's actually might be my

12:49

personal jihad. This is not the

12:53

time for that it is your list.

12:53

Yep, yep. Yep.

12:59

With apologies to our

12:59

nerds. Let's talk about the

13:01

lesser Jihad which like is

13:01

warfare and it's not not

13:05

warfare. I want everyone to hear

13:05

me say that. I'm not like it a

13:08

jihad apologist. And we'll get

13:08

into like all the things I've

13:10

been called on the internet for

13:10

writing about jihad. Not because

13:14

I'm special, but because I want

13:14

our nerds to hear what it means

13:18

to even talk about this in

13:18

publics. But your Jihad is

13:23

really specific warfare when

13:23

it's mentioned in Islamic,

13:26

religious and philosophical

13:26

texts, it is very close to the

13:31

European or enlightenment

13:31

concept of a just-war. So like

13:36

defensive wars, wars of

13:36

liberation, wars that are to

13:41

save someone else, or more like

13:41

on the mat, like a micro level:

13:48

you're intervening in a fight

13:48

between two people to save the

13:50

person who is less trying to

13:50

make this not ableist. But like

13:56

the damsel in distress,

13:56

chivalric moment, or like the

13:59

more vulnerable person, right

13:59

less vulberable person.

14:01

Absolutely. And it does get

14:01

gendered in this very particular

14:03

way. So I'm translating in my

14:03

head nerds, but forgive me, all

14:09

that's to say is that literally

14:09

all of the sources that are

14:12

suggesting this is an actual

14:12

moment of like, war, are doing

14:17

so in the understanding that

14:17

like you would have done

14:20

everything else to exhaust every

14:20

other possibility besides

14:23

bloodshed. You are to avoid that

14:23

at all costs. But there is an

14:26

acknowledgement within Islamic

14:26

legal and religious sources,

14:30

that there are some certain

14:30

circumstances where you have

14:32

done everything and there is

14:32

nothing left to do except engage

14:37

in like fisticuffs. That is the

14:37

lesser jihad. So, Jihad means

14:45

struggle. We usually use it

14:45

religiously to think about like,

14:49

the struggles we have as

14:49

individuals or communities

14:51

against the worst parts of

14:51

ourselves. Sometimes it means

14:55

war, and when it means war, it

14:55

specifically means just war, not

15:00

holy war, which I think have

15:00

different valences in English.

15:04

And it is only after you've

15:04

exhausted all other diplomatic

15:08

options.

15:15

Okay, so a couple things

15:15

are hopping out to me here: 1)

15:19

it's language and Catholicism,

15:19

you're shocked, right? Where my

15:24

brain lives. So my sense of this

15:24

and I promise I won't get too

15:27

far into it. But my sense of

15:27

this is it's interesting to me

15:31

that the definition and

15:31

deployment of jihad has always

15:33

been dialogic, right? Because

15:33

Muslims don't ever get to

15:36

justify it for themselves.

15:36

They're always defining it in

15:40

conversation with or against the

15:40

way that it's being understood

15:44

by non-Muslims, and particularly

15:44

in the context of things like

15:48

imperialism, for example.

15:51

Yeah, unless you unless

15:51

you go all the way back in time,

15:53

like the earliest texts where

15:53

this is really just a thought

15:56

experiment. What does it mean to

15:56

have a just-war where we're

15:59

like, Muslim intellectuals are

15:59

writing thought pieces, as they

16:04

like, ruminate. But yes, you're

16:04

right in the modern way, there

16:07

is never a moment where we're

16:07

talking about Jihad without

16:10

talking about imperialists.

16:11

Yeah, yeah, it's almost

16:11

like Imperialism is deeply

16:14

invested in telling folks who

16:14

are resisting it, that they're

16:17

resisting it wrong. And that's

16:17

curious to me. And also sounds a

16:22

little bit like a book that I

16:22

read by my close personal

16:25

friend, Dr. Ilyse morgenstein

16:25

Fuerst. So there's that piece,

16:29

but the other piece that I find

16:29

interesting is this language of

16:32

just-war, because many primary

16:32

source here, I in seventh grade

16:38

made a whole argument about

16:38

just-war, an unjust war, in our

16:41

like, practice debate about the

16:41

Iraq War, was one of the Iraq

16:44

wars. Because there was a

16:44

handout at church I was this

16:48

kid, I was the kid picking up

16:48

the handouts at church where I

16:51

was voluntarily. And it was a

16:51

whole thing about what makes a

16:55

just-war and why Vietnam had not

16:55

been a just conflict. So the

17:00

other space that my brain wants

17:00

to go is like this category of a

17:03

just-war of a war that is

17:03

justified or necessary, because

17:06

you've tried everything else.

17:06

And it's not working, and lives

17:09

are at stake is not unique to

17:09

Islam.

17:13

Absolutely. Thank you for underlining that I'm specifically using the phrase

17:15

just-war because it is a it is a

17:17

set of concepts that comes out

17:17

of like, enlightenment thinking.

17:24

Right? Like, we're not worrying.

17:24

I mean, again, like we could go

17:27

on and on about this, but like,

17:27

this is not a moment of like,

17:30

I'm going to take your shit.

17:30

It's how am I justifying that?

17:33

And when is it like,

17:33

unavoidable? That's a European

17:37

concept that actually works.

17:37

Holy War? Is not it. Like we

17:42

have a cognate for this. It is

17:42

not that.

17:45

Right, right. And also,

17:45

most people misunderstand Holy

17:49

War, and the Crusades were

17:49

largely a land grab and more

17:52

about Christians fighting Christians than anything else.

17:54

100%. But the question

17:54

that we would ask our nerds is,

17:54

Anyway. why are we purposefully getting

17:59

incorrect? Holy War and

18:04

just-war? Right? That's, that's

18:04

like, not on accident. That is

18:09

no fool.

18:21

So why does this matter?

18:21

Why do we care that so many

18:25

folks have been so incorrect

18:25

about jihad for so very long?

18:30

We care because it makes

18:30

Muslims seem like very violent,

18:34

violent monsters, like first and

18:34

foremost, we care a lot that

18:39

having a concept of just-war in

18:39

one's religious tradition, makes

18:44

all of the people who subscribe

18:44

to that religion open to the

18:49

claim that what their religion

18:49

says is bloodlust. Right? And

18:55

that matters a lot, because we

18:55

start to see that and again,

18:58

these are spoilers from my very

18:58

now old book. But these are, it

19:03

matters a lot that we start to

19:03

see people bandying this about

19:06

this, accusation that you are

19:06

bloodthirsty, that you can't be

19:10

trusted that anyone who tries to

19:10

rule you will be absolutely

19:15

subject to your crazy-ass

19:15

war-like ways it matters that

19:20

that accusation only happens

19:20

when White Christian people are

19:22

subjugating, repressing and

19:22

murdering Muslims around the

19:26

world.

19:27

I was gonna say because the sounds like both of religious and racial, dare I say

19:29

religio-racial argument and an

19:33

essentialization about Muslims,

19:33

this is a space where Muslims

19:37

get literally categorized as

19:37

inherently warlike because of

19:42

their religion and because of

19:42

the way that they're racialized.

19:44

Absolutely, absolutely.

19:44

So like the quick historical

19:47

rundown is that some

19:47

anti-colonial movements, the

19:50

people who were like

19:50

legitimately trying to get the

19:52

British, the French, the

19:52

Belgians, the Russians out their

19:55

backyard out their house, off

19:55

their women out of their

19:59

schools. You name it. Some of

19:59

those folks are like, "y'all

20:03

keep saying this is jihad and

20:03

you know what? It is! Fuck

20:06

imperialism. My jihad is your

20:06

oppressive rule." And it's used

20:11

as a rallying cry. Now most of

20:11

that doesn't doesn't actually

20:15

become like skirmish fighting,

20:15

it becomes like strongly worded

20:18

letters to the editor, but like

20:18

fine, some people are actually

20:22

using this as a rallying cry.

20:22

Today, some extremists and

20:26

terrorists fully appropriate,

20:26

the language of jihad, and they

20:30

do see themselves as freedom

20:30

fighters, so like, we can

20:34

disagree with their tactics. But

20:34

the history of this language is

20:39

100%, people who feel repressed,

20:39

oppressed, or financially

20:44

punished in ways, are using the

20:44

language of jihad, to fight back

20:48

against those oppressions,

20:48

repressions and, like, punitive

20:53

measures. So my favorite example

20:53

of this is the Mujahideen in

20:57

Afghanistan in the early 80s,

20:57

late 70s, early 80s. I was like

21:02

to how quickly how quickly

21:02

switch right when the USSR is

21:06

like fucking with Afghanistan,

21:06

and we're anti USSR. Boom, don't

21:10

the Mujahideen, fucking led by

21:10

Bin Laden or like Bin Laden is

21:14

part of the crew? Aren't they

21:14

our best buddies? Don't we give

21:17

them all of our weapons? Aren't

21:17

we sharing them with stuff?

21:20

Reagan is like, creaming in his

21:20

tighty whities about those

21:23

freedom fighters.

21:24

Yeah, of course, because

21:24

at least they're religious. At

21:26

least they believe in God.

21:26

Unlike the godless Russians,

21:31

right. So like, let's give them

21:31

a ton of guns that we don't

21:34

track particularly well. And

21:34

also, like accidentally, maybe a

21:37

little bit fund, the largest

21:37

opium trade in the world. Don't

21:40

worry about it. It's not

21:40

important. BTWs, this is the

21:43

moment where we have to pause

21:43

and acknowledge that Rambo three

21:45

was initially dedicated to our

21:45

brothers in the Mujahideen. Uh

21:49

huh.

21:50

Oh, this is like

21:50

nationalism, mixed war, mixed

21:54

with patriotism is the degree to

21:54

which we loved the jihad against

21:58

the commies?

21:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Rambo,

21:59

plus Jihad equals BFF. A) And

22:04

then B) If y'all watched the

22:04

boys this season, you know that

22:07

soldier boy who was like the

22:07

original all American hero, also

22:10

did a spot celebrating the

22:10

Mujahideen 100% made me snort

22:15

out loud.

22:15

But the second dose

22:15

Soviets leave Afghanistan and,

22:18

and the Americans and the

22:18

Americans don't leave because we

22:21

got some good opium, and also,

22:21

this is a really important part

22:24

of the world that we would like

22:24

to control, all of a sudden when

22:27

those guys sort of like morph

22:27

into the Taliban, when they

22:31

morphed into being less

22:31

anti-Soviet and more

22:33

anti-American, because now we're

22:33

the guys. Then suddenly, they're

22:38

not freedom fighters. They're

22:38

not the glorious Mujahideen,

22:41

they're terrorists.

22:43

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep.

22:45

And Megan, I'm gonna say

22:45

a disclaimer now, nerds, you

22:49

probably don't care about this

22:49

disclaimer. I care because once

22:52

every six months my name ends up

22:52

on some fucking weird website.

22:55

So let me say this clear and

22:55

loud. And I'm going to get real

22:58

close to the mic. Is everyone ready?

22:59

Yeah, do it. Do it, do it.

23:01

I do not. I Ilyse Ryan

23:01

Morgenstein Fuerst do not

23:04

support the Taliban. I am not a

23:04

secret jihadi nor have I ever

23:10

been, as has been reported on

23:10

many websites.

23:13

I'm not now nor had I

23:13

have I ever been a secret

23:16

jihadi.

23:17

Nor am I an open jihadi,

23:17

I suppose is also a good agenda.

23:21

I am nerds a good post-holocaust

23:21

Postclassic Jew, which means I

23:25

straight up do not remove

23:25

violence from the toolkit of

23:27

rebellion. But I don't like it

23:27

either. I'm not generally in

23:31

favor of holy wars, Jews tend to

23:31

do very poorly in holy way.

23:36

The numbers are not on your side, not a fan.

23:38

But I can acknowledge

23:38

that using a religious concept

23:43

to think about how one agitates

23:43

against one's own oppression is

23:49

effective. That does not make me

23:49

any of those things. Please stop

23:54

sending me hate mail.

23:56

Yeah, I have to do this

23:56

every semester to because my

23:58

second so I do two days on Islam

23:58

and my global religions class

24:02

and the second day is look at

24:02

American imperialism, Michael.

24:07

And so I look at work by like

24:07

Saba Mahmood. And the way that

24:13

yes, Taliban did some very bad

24:13

stuff. Not a fan of the Taliban.

24:18

Not also me Megan Prince

24:18

Goodwin, not secret jihadi, I

24:22

would be a very bad secret

24:22

anything frankly. This was true.

24:28

But also, American occupation,

24:28

not good for Afghanistan did

24:32

some big damage to particularly

24:32

women in Afghanistan, who we

24:36

were nominally there to help and

24:36

support and protect, and

24:40

instead, we increased the

24:40

likelihood that they would be

24:43

sexually assaulted and also made

24:43

it much harder for them to

24:46

access things like food and

24:46

water. So anyway, imperialism

24:51

bad American imperialism in

24:51

Afghanistan, very bad, but also

24:55

Taliban not great either. Okay,

24:55

so I feel like we have spent A

25:00

lot of time talking about what

25:00

jihad is not. When Muslims now

25:05

talk about Jiha, what are they?

25:05

What are they talking about?

25:09

So I can't speak to all times in places, but let me let me do some of the stuff I know.

25:11

Right? So in the 19th century

25:13

British Indian context, Muslims

25:13

are really trying to make sense

25:16

of their role visa vie the

25:16

British like being there and

25:21

ussurping all sorts of stuff. So

25:21

you start to see a lot of fatwas

25:24

or legal rulings about jihad.

25:24

And all of that, frankly, is a

25:29

response to being called Jihadis

25:29

left, right and in between what

25:34

all of these fatwas are like

25:34

really thoughtful writing, and

25:37

most of them say things like "a

25:37

proper and just war against the

25:41

British is just not called for

25:41

or sanctioned", Because as long

25:45

as the Muslims are free to

25:45

worship and practice Islam, as

25:48

long as there is a modicum of

25:48

religious freedom, and the

25:51

religious identity of the ruler

25:51

is inconsequential, err, go for

25:55

Britain and Queen Victoria is

25:55

fear of jihad being like, called

26:01

for is unfounded. So you see a

26:01

lot of this kind of writing

26:06

where it's not just yeah, yeah,

26:06

yeah Jihad's not real, it's

26:09

like, Nope, there are very

26:09

specific qualifications for

26:12

jihad, and this does not meet

26:12

them. You go ahead.

26:17

I was just I'm thinking

26:17

that arguing for nuance with

26:19

colonizers always goes really

26:19

well. Just,

26:23

I mean, bless all these

26:23

dudes hearts, right. Yeah.

26:26

Sir Sayed, dude? See, I

26:26

learned some stuff. I mean,

26:31

like, You're misunderstanding

26:31

this concept. Let me educate you

26:34

and the British were like,

26:34

instead, what if we kill you a

26:37

bunch? Thanks. Yeah,

26:38

I mean, this is the argument of like, you can't argue with someone who

26:40

fundamentally questions your

26:42

humanity. However, these bros

26:42

and they were mostly bros are

26:47

writing in all manner of

26:47

publication in multiple

26:50

languages, including English,

26:50

German, and French, trying to

26:53

make the case that like, you

26:53

have misunderstood something

26:57

crucial. And that

26:57

misunderstanding is why you're

27:00

all like perturbed. If you would

27:00

just understand us better, it'd

27:04

be fine. But we don't actually

27:04

want you here.

27:06

But like we can work this

27:06

out. I am laughing because it's

27:10

sad. And also because I identify

27:10

with this particular struggle

27:14

very much from the depths of my

27:14

autistic soul. If I just explain

27:18

it right, you'll stop hurting me

27:18

and understand what's going on.

27:22

Like, I'll just keep explaining

27:22

it. Bless. You know.

27:25

The other thing that

27:25

Muslim intellectuals are doing

27:27

in like the 19th and early 20th

27:27

century is they're actually

27:29

making the claim that Jihad

27:29

exists, it's real. And it's

27:32

just-war, and they're playing

27:32

with just and holy war. And

27:35

they're doing it because in the

27:35

20th century, this might come as

27:38

a shock to many of you. Lots of

27:38

wars were justified as

27:42

just-wars. And so in the midst

27:42

of all this, you have all of

27:46

these Muslim intellectuals

27:46

coming from frankly, all of

27:48

these imperialized places where

27:48

lots of Muslims are fighting and

27:51

things like the Boer War, the

27:51

World War One, World War Two,

27:55

and in the midst of all this,

27:55

they're like, "Yo, you want the

27:59

concept of jihad working for

27:59

you? Yeah? You are making a

28:02

claim that this is just you are

28:02

making a claim that if we don't

28:05

fight the Germans, we are all

28:05

going to lose things like

28:08

democracy". We agree. We agree.

28:08

You're totally right. This is

28:15

what jihad is, you want us on

28:15

your team. And so you start to

28:18

see this argument as as

28:18

Europeans are making the claim

28:21

that Muslims are not compatible

28:21

with democracy because of jihad.

28:25

Muslims are like, point of

28:25

order. Jihad is exactly what

28:28

y'all are up to. This is

28:28

actually how we prove that we

28:31

are compatible with

28:31

enlightenment values, which

28:35

like, again, gross, puke, no

28:35

thank you. But that's what's

28:39

going on in those in those spaces.

28:41

And as a survival

28:41

strategy, like I cannot fault

28:43

them for trying. No.

28:45

And the last place we see

28:45

Muslims really like saying like,

28:47

well, we can't throw this out,

28:47

right? It's right there. It's in

28:50

the text. We can't get rid of

28:50

it. You You're going like that

28:53

would be bullshit. But you do

28:53

see this reliance, particularly

28:56

in a post 9/11 universe, of

28:56

greater and lesser, where you

28:59

start to be like, if you're

28:59

really gross, if you're doing

29:02

the base level, if you're like

29:02

fulfilling the worst in

29:05

humanity. Yeah, jihad is war.

29:05

But war is bad across all

29:08

places. But like, let's take

29:08

this other option, the greater

29:11

jihad, it's me being a better

29:11

person. And you start to like

29:14

whole-ass sermons,

29:14

conversations, particularly

29:18

liberal Muslims getting in

29:18

public and like explaining this

29:21

difference again, if you just

29:21

understood the word you would

29:24

not be doing so much damage to

29:24

us logics at play,

29:27

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's

29:27

a lot and it's heavy, and it's a

29:32

lot of violence.

29:35

I mean, it is jihad. Yeah. So

29:38

Well, but I also I really

29:38

appreciate a space where I get

29:41

like squishy in my soul about

29:41

religion are the spaces where

29:46

folks who are really trying to

29:46

work make the world a better

29:49

place, dig in their heels and

29:49

say, like, you don't get to have

29:52

this you don't get to take this

29:52

from me because it's important.

29:55

So like, I am not a Quranic

29:55

scholar, as you know, is jihad

30:00

In the Quran?

30:01

There is a couple

30:01

mentioned in the Quran, it comes

30:04

up more in Hadith, like the

30:04

sayings and traditions of the

30:07

Prophet Muhammad, you know,

30:07

because those are the places

30:09

where Muslims are figuring out

30:09

how you live life and war is

30:14

part of life, then that's

30:14

obviously part of the corpus of

30:17

how we addresseverything in our

30:17

lives, not just like the hunky

30:22

Yes, it's, I always think

30:22

of it. This, I don't know if

30:22

dory bits. this is reductive, but I always

30:25

think of it as like the workbook session like this is where we're

30:27

actually working it out. But the

30:29

reason that I asked about the

30:29

Quran honestly, is because that

30:32

means God said it, God said this

30:32

word. This is a word that comes

30:36

from the Divine, to sort of see

30:36

folks struggle with this and try

30:40

to use it to the betterment of

30:40

themselves and others and the

30:44

world. Like that. That gets me

30:44

and I am inspired by that. I

30:51

will also just say from like a

30:51

math point of view, how they're

30:55

like, what, almost 2 billion

30:55

Muslims in the world. So like,

30:59

if all Muslims everywhere every

30:59

second of every day, we're just

31:05

like, fucking jihad on all of

31:05

this all of it, jihad

31:08

everywhere. And what I mean by

31:08

jihad is bloody blood thirsty,

31:13

world conquering war, I just

31:13

feel like 2 billion people

31:17

putting their minds together

31:17

could probably have taken over

31:19

the world by now. So I want to

31:19

suggest just from like a

31:22

practicality standpoint, that it

31:22

can't be all of all the Muslims

31:27

thinking about this all the

31:27

time. I just Yeah, I feel like

31:30

maybe there's something else.

31:31

Yeah, this is the part

31:31

that has bothered me, like since

31:34

911, quite frankly, is like just

31:34

just your logic alone. Fucking

31:39

white people is is incorrect.

31:39

Not Correct. Correct.

31:44

Incorrect. does not add

31:44

up does not literally does not

31:48

compute. Oh, so Okay, so we're

31:48

oh go ahead,

31:52

No, I was gonna say let's

31:52

let's wrap this up. Let's, I was

31:56

gonna say

32:04

Hey, jihad is not

32:04

straight up, just all out

32:10

holy-war. Jihad means struggle.

32:10

And that struggle is

32:14

complicated. And often internal

32:14

and more about you trying to be

32:19

the best person you are then

32:19

like, taking over the world.

32:22

Yeah. Second, second bit

32:22

to sum-up textual history when

32:26

jihad is warm it's usually

32:26

rendered as just-war, which can

32:31

mean a defensive war, after all

32:31

other options have been

32:35

exhausted. It is not like a

32:35

bunch of like real creepy

32:40

looking dudes being like, "Oh my

32:40

God, who are we gonna fuck up

32:42

today?" God, that's not how it

32:42

works.

32:47

So again, if we're

32:47

talking about Muslim spiritual

32:51

practice, jihad is about working

32:51

through your own shit, just

32:55

doing better all of the time. It

32:55

is constant, and it is a

32:59

struggle. Because I if you are a

32:59

person out in the world, trying

33:04

to do better, you know how much

33:04

work that is all the time, it's

33:06

easy to be shitty. It is really

33:06

hard to be your best. And that

33:11

is, in essence, what your jihad

33:11

is trying to do is struggling to

33:13

just be the best you you can be,

33:13

and helping to create the best

33:18

world there can be for all of us.

33:20

Yeah, and last thing on

33:20

jihad is that you had has been

33:23

used as a metric through which

33:23

to bar Muslims from public

33:27

spaces, to oppress and repress

33:27

really since the middle of the

33:31

19th century, but probably

33:31

before that, depending on whose

33:34

sources you're looking at. And

33:34

the assumption that all Muslims

33:37

are secretly jihadis, and all of

33:37

us who talk about jihad, as

33:41

secretly jihadis is a racialized

33:41

and racist assumption.

33:46

Yeah, that's stupid and

33:46

bad and wrong. So Yeah, correct.

33:50

Incorrect. So in short, if you

33:50

think Jihad equals holy-war

33:55

mandated for all Muslims, you

33:55

are incorrect. But you have

34:00

listened to this episode. So you

34:00

don't think that and good for

34:03

you nerds. We appreciate you.

34:03

But don't pack up stuff yet. You

34:08

have homework, homework, what

34:08

homework?

34:11

Goodwin I figured I'm

34:11

taking over the homework today,

34:13

and I will put some stuff in the

34:13

show notes. But mostly, I'm just

34:16

gonna give you the highlights of

34:16

all of my years of research. So

34:20

first, the woman I quoted before

34:20

Aisha Jalal, has a great book

34:23

Jihad in South Asia". It's a

34:26

fantastic Clear, clear book on

34:26

what's going on in South Asia

34:30

with the word jihad. There's

34:30

Michael David Bonners book

34:33

"Jihad in Islamic

34:33

history:doctrines in practice",

34:36

I'm not gonna lie a little bit

34:36

dry a little bit of a text if

34:40

you want to know about Jihad and

34:40

the ways in which it is like,

34:42

actually a deep fucking

34:42

philosophical conversation, and

34:45

it is not the exciting, like,

34:45

like movie version of a bunch of

34:50

So much library, like

34:50

it's got so many letters. That's

34:50

dudes with a Princeton Book. That makes

34:57

sense. Yeah.

34:59

Then you've got us Asma

34:59

Afsaruddin's book, "Striving in

35:02

Jihad in

35:02

martyrdom Islamic thought",

35:04

again, a really good

35:04

intellectual history about what

35:07

jihad is doing and what it is

35:07

not doing. And a classic,

35:11

frankly at this point, and it

35:11

probably needs updating like no

35:14

shade to my former adviser, but

35:14

Charlie Kurzman's book "Missing

35:17

Martyrs", is literally a

35:17

question of math. He is

35:20

literally saying we are obsessed

35:20

with jihad in the United States.

35:23

And after taking many of the

35:23

federal government's dollars,

35:26

he's like, Yo, we just don't

35:26

have jihadis here. So I don't

35:29

know what the fuck you're

35:29

talking about. But the numbers

35:32

don't add up. Like literally the

35:32

missing martyrs refers to the

35:35

missing number of jihadis that

35:35

the government is counting on

35:39

being there, but that just never

35:39

show up.

35:42

Golly, it sounds like

35:42

Jihad might be more of I don't

35:46

know, a money, money laundering

35:46

scheme for defense contractors.

35:50

Right? That's wonder if I will

35:50

be writing about that. In my

35:53

book where I talk about the

35:53

cultification of American Islam.

35:55

There's big money in

35:55

Islamophobia. Sure, there's

35:58

always money in the

35:58

Islamophobia. We can point you

36:01

to

36:01

Islamophobia, Inc, and a

36:01

few other books like that. I

36:03

will link to some of my own work

36:03

on jihad in South Asia, but I'll

36:07

put that in the show notes.

36:07

Megan, did you have anything

36:09

that you want to add? Or is that enough?

36:11

No, I have a couple

36:11

quickie things. So one I want to

36:14

shout out as always, Dr. Amina

36:14

Wadud and her concept of gender

36:18

Jihad struggling for gender

36:18

justice, because I think that's

36:21

really important. I have quoted

36:21

a number of times a very short

36:24

part of Eddie Izzard stress to

36:24

kill, but hers is the voice I

36:28

hear when someone says jihad, so

36:28

I will yank that out for you.

36:31

And then also I'm just going to

36:31

shout out again that that short

36:35

music video with land called

36:35

Paradise because it is I think,

36:38

in addition to being incredibly

36:38

moving and deeply personal, I

36:42

think it does more work than a

36:42

lot of my classroom voice or

36:45

yelling online could do to just

36:45

disrupt this idea of jihad

36:49

because like I I, at this point

36:49

also can't hear that word

36:52

without seeing that like little

36:52

seven year old guy being like,

36:55

it's broccoli. My Jihad is broccoli.

36:59

Awesome. Shout out to

36:59

Evee Wolfe, Rachel Zieff, and

37:01

Juliana Finch the key I want to

37:01

one team whose work makes this

37:04

pod accessible and therefore

37:04

awesome. Listen, of all social

37:07

media of all among many other

37:07

things for which we are

37:10

eternally grateful.

37:11

And we appreciate you you

37:11

can find mega that's me on

37:14

Twitter @mpgPhD and Ilyse

37:14

@profirms or the show

37:17

@keepingit_101 Find the website

37:17

at keepingit101.com. Keep the

37:22

instant if you want to drop us a

37:22

rating review and your pod

37:26

catcher of choice and with that

37:26

peace out nerds do your homework

37:30

it's on the syllabus

37:49

we get scared about

37:49

Islamic Jihad I think we do

37:51

assume that everyone who is into

37:51

the Islamic religion is having a

37:56

jihad every other bloody day

37:56

there's a lot of very relaxed

37:58

Islamic people and we got to

37:58

understand remember this is very

38:01

important. And we do assume that

38:01

your hands are just like you

38:03

know every day three Jihads just

38:03

issued by every individual it

38:07

just seems that everywhere the

38:07

fruit shop shortchanged me a

38:10

fucking Johanna on them. bump

38:10

into someone say fucking Jehan,

38:15

you need your hands you got

38:15

going now Dad well 24 cars

38:20

difficult to keep up with them.