0:03

Welcome to Kelly Corrigan Wonders. I'm Kelly

0:05

Corrigan and today I am wondering,

0:08

still, about how to have

0:10

hard conversations productively. This is the

0:13

fourth in a five-part series called

0:15

Rupture and Repair, which is our

0:17

offering to all of us who

0:20

find ourselves on one side or the

0:22

other of a divide. My

0:25

thought partner today is Simon Greer. I

0:27

have known him for several years. We

0:29

have both been a part of the

0:32

Nantucket project and he is, of all

0:34

the people I know, the perfect person

0:36

to talk about rupture and repair when

0:38

it involves religious beliefs. He is the

0:41

founder of something called Bridging the Gap,

0:43

which is a program used on college

0:45

campuses for students and teachers and staff

0:48

to engage with tension constructively.

0:50

So join me for my

0:52

conversation with entrepreneur, bridge builder,

0:54

and friend Simon Greer. Hey,

1:02

I have a quick favor to ask. We

1:05

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1:07

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1:21

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2:14

back to Kelly Corrigan Wonders. I'm

2:22

Kelly Corrigan and today I'm talking with Simon

2:24

Greer who is 30 years into social

2:28

change work that centers

2:30

around people coming together and

2:32

saying the things they don't usually

2:35

say to each other's faces with

2:37

love and respect. He

2:39

is an unconventional thinker who has

2:41

worked at local, national and international

2:43

levels and he has the

2:46

stories to tell of what

2:48

makes for a successful conversation between

2:50

people who feel sure they

2:52

have absolutely nothing important

2:55

in common. I want to

2:57

mention that in the show notes there's a

2:59

link to a short film called Differences, a

3:01

student story and this is where

3:04

you will see Elizabeth, a conservative Christian

3:06

woman and Javi, a bisexual Jewish woman

3:08

get to know each other in a

3:11

way that is somewhat unforgettable. Also

3:13

in the film you will see

3:16

the incredible evolution of the relationship

3:18

between Simon and Elizabeth. There's

3:21

no conversation, this is unusual. Do

3:27

you have a funny idea to bring

3:29

together kids from Oberlin and kids

3:32

from an evangelical college

3:34

in Michigan? I did.

3:36

And you did three weeks with them. I

3:38

mean there's a whole like J term where

3:41

you had this sort of methodology. What

3:44

did you hope would happen and what actually

3:46

happened? Good question.

3:50

What did I hope would happen? I mean I had

3:52

very, on some level I

3:54

had pretty limited hopes. I had done

3:56

this program with conservative Trump supporters and

3:59

liberal Hillary supporters. supporters and some

4:01

of them were affiliated with Spring Harbor

4:03

University, the Evangelical School, and with Oberlin,

4:05

and they said, have you ever tried

4:07

this on a college campus? I

4:10

hadn't, so I was feeling experimental.

4:12

Like, well, let's see what happens.

4:14

What happens if you bring college students

4:16

together to try to bridge divides? So on

4:19

some of I was just exploring, I just

4:21

wanted to see. Did

4:23

you suspect that kids would

4:26

be slightly more open to one another than

4:28

adults, or less open, or did you not

4:30

have a theory going in? Because

4:33

I think I would have bet that college

4:35

kids would be better at this. They

4:37

wouldn't be quite so calcified in their views.

4:40

Yeah, I think maybe I felt

4:42

both things. Like, they shouldn't be so

4:45

calcified, but I also had the impression

4:47

that college campuses were very currently

4:49

culturally resistant to divergent viewpoints. So

4:51

I went in thinking, you know,

4:53

like hopefully a synagogue that has

4:55

a deep spiritual tradition would be

4:57

a place where people could explore

4:59

new ideas. So I guess I

5:01

thought in the earlier work, maybe

5:05

the institutions would support it in a way that

5:07

maybe a college campus wouldn't. Well, the other thing

5:09

I know, which I should have factored into

5:11

my guess, was that

5:13

that's a time of great conviction.

5:16

You know, 18 to 22 is this

5:18

time where you actually think you know

5:21

everything. That it's just so incredibly clear

5:23

to you, and how could it be

5:25

so muddy to everyone else? It's a

5:27

little bit pre-complexity. You

5:29

know, it's a little bit where

5:31

you turn from a

5:34

black and white world to the gray world that we all

5:36

know as adults. Yeah, for

5:38

sure. And I

5:40

guess the other thing I really, I

5:43

was hoping for was could we turn,

5:46

like I'd been doing this bridging work for some

5:48

years, and I wanted to see if you

5:50

could teach it. Like, I'd been

5:52

a practitioner, right? I had done it. I

5:54

had been in the hard conversations, and I

5:56

had been able to facilitate them, but could

5:58

I teach the method? so college students

6:01

could then use it in their lives,

6:03

or maybe even become teachers or practitioners

6:05

of it themselves with their peers. And

6:07

so that was a little bit

6:09

of what was on my mind too when I went into

6:11

it. You asked, so then what happened in essence? I

6:14

mean, the first thing is I remembered that one,

6:16

I had not been good at college. And

6:19

so I don't know what I was doing back

6:22

then. I was like, I didn't like college. I

6:24

wasn't a very successful student. And here I am

6:26

all these years later. So one, two, I lived

6:28

in a dorm. As a grown man.

6:31

This was idiotic. Of

6:34

all the bad judgment calls I've made,

6:36

living in a dorm, eating dining

6:38

hall food. I don't

6:41

know. So those two things were

6:43

definitely revealed. I

6:45

lived in a dorm one summer at Yale.

6:47

I was teaching like this variety of English

6:49

classes, like writing for

6:51

video games, narrative for video games was

6:53

one of the classes. And

6:56

I thought it was going to be so nostalgic. And

6:58

then it was like, Oh my God, my old lady

7:00

body is not working on this tiny mattress.

7:02

Like the mattress is like two inches thick.

7:04

I was like, princess Polly is going to

7:07

target to buy like a pillow topper because

7:09

I can't live like this. Yeah.

7:11

I mean, an iceberg lettuce isn't

7:13

lettuce and, and, and white

7:16

bread isn't bread. It was Michigan in the

7:18

winter. The heat didn't work that well.

7:20

And this is how you know, this is,

7:22

this is a low moment. I was sitting in my little

7:24

dorm room eating hot Doritos.

7:27

Ew. Thinking like, I

7:29

am living the good life. So that's

7:32

that. Yeah. So all that happened. You

7:35

know what, what was amazing to me? Well,

7:39

you know, I should say this has been true about all this work. There's

7:42

what I went in thinking what happened to

7:44

the other people. And then there's what I

7:46

went in thinking would happen to me. Yeah.

7:48

And I usually get distracted like, Oh,

7:50

is it going to work? Are they going to

7:52

gel or does it? And that's important. And I'll

7:54

say, I can say a lot about that, but

7:57

I didn't know a lot of evangelical.

8:00

Christians. Like those are not my people, if you

8:02

will. And being

8:04

on a campus of all evangelicals

8:06

and going to their Bible study

8:08

class and meeting the president of

8:10

the university and sitting

8:12

with the students, it's just like a

8:14

good reminder. It's so easy to live

8:16

in our bubble and have our story

8:18

about those people. And that, you

8:21

know, maybe that's the most, the

8:24

most transformative part of this work has been

8:26

for me. And I say this a lot

8:28

when I teach now that if you haven't

8:31

recently spent time with someone who you pretty

8:33

much disagree with and learn something from them,

8:35

then you're really not preparing for bridge building

8:37

because it's not a theoretical activity. It's like,

8:40

oh, wow, that's hard to hear, huh? I

8:42

got to take that to heart. Oh, that's a good point.

8:44

Hey, if you had a girl look you right in

8:46

the eye and say, you will

8:49

not have everlasting life. You are

8:51

a Jew and therefore you will

8:53

be excluded from this heaven that

8:55

I am working toward. Yeah,

8:57

that was kind of intense. I

9:00

mean, people don't typically say that to each other,

9:02

eyeball to eyeball, and it takes a

9:04

lot of goodwill flowing

9:06

between the two parties for

9:08

her to be able to say that and

9:11

for you to be able to hear it. But

9:13

there is an incredible honesty to it. Yeah.

9:16

And I, you know, my view is

9:18

sometimes in this bridging business, people want

9:20

to bridge on the stuff that's easy,

9:23

like let's find common ground and

9:25

let's set aside the really hard things.

9:28

And I guess my view has been the opposite,

9:30

like not that you should jump in first to

9:32

the hardest thing, but if we're going to have

9:34

a real relationship, I believe it

9:36

can be enhanced or deepened because

9:38

we talk about the hard things even when

9:41

they're irreconcilable. And, you know, in that case,

9:43

it's Elizabeth who you're talking about. And one

9:45

of the beautiful things is

9:47

that we have that disagreement

9:50

about life, the afterlife. But

9:53

her family is also like a

9:55

Novax family. They were totally against

9:57

getting vaccinated, I think on religious

9:59

grounds. stuff that I don't

10:01

totally understand about their view of health

10:03

and God and that. But

10:05

she wanted to come to my son's

10:07

bar mitzvah and she couldn't come without

10:10

being vaccinated. And so she went against

10:13

her family's position and

10:15

got a vaccine so she could be part of that. And I

10:17

feel like that's the give and take

10:19

of a real relationship. Like our relationship mattered enough

10:21

that she was going to step outside of her

10:23

comfort zone and her families and do something so

10:25

she could participate with me and my family. And

10:28

at the same time, she could say to me

10:30

directly, like, I like you a lot Simon, I

10:32

think you do great stuff. But at the end

10:34

of the day, you know, you're not getting good

10:36

at what I've got coming. Food for worms, baby.

10:38

Food for worms. Yeah.

10:42

And so when you put

10:44

Elizabeth in the same room with a bifacial

10:47

Jewish woman, where does

10:49

it begin? What are

10:51

the opening questions that people who

10:53

are living out such different

10:55

points of view? What's an

10:57

opening question that you recommend? Yeah,

11:00

I mean, maybe right before the question, I

11:02

think I start with we call it this

11:04

invitation that we

11:06

say, I'm going to take seriously the things

11:08

that you hold dear. If it matters to you, it's

11:10

going to matter to me. That doesn't mean

11:12

I agree with you. It doesn't mean that

11:15

I think you're right. But I see, you know,

11:17

if I can see in your eyes that this

11:19

thing is like sacred to you, and

11:21

I dismiss it as like, I want to talk about

11:24

the important stuff, then why would you want to talk

11:26

to me? Right? So we say to people first, you

11:28

got to take seriously the things that matter to the

11:30

other person, and that your mission is not

11:32

to try to change them. It's to

11:34

exhaust your capacity to understand them,

11:38

rather than trying to convince them of anything. And

11:40

then it's to believe that I'm

11:42

enhanced by sitting with someone I

11:45

disagree with rather than being diminished. There's a lot

11:47

of talk right now about Oh, you gave them

11:49

a platform for their whatever, whatever, and I just

11:51

see it differently. I think I want

11:53

them to talk to me and tell me how they

11:56

see it. So if you start with, I'm going to

11:58

take you seriously. And I'm not

12:00

trying to convince you to change, I just want to

12:02

understand you. I think I'm

12:04

going to be enhanced, not diminished by being

12:06

with you, and that I could actually love

12:09

you even if we disagree, rather than just

12:11

tolerate you, I could actually love you. If

12:13

you start with that posture, then

12:15

I think there's a lot of technique. I

12:17

think you know the one I like the most

12:19

is this open-ended question, like would you tell me

12:21

more about that? I think if

12:24

out of our conversation, people got one

12:26

idea, be like when someone

12:28

says to you, I think

12:30

this and you're ready to just like lash

12:32

back at them, instead say, well, can

12:34

you tell me a little more about that? Just

12:36

that little gesture, one, it

12:38

gives you time to breathe, to catch your breath

12:40

before you respond. But it really

12:43

catches someone off guard. If they thought we

12:45

were going to be like locking horns, and

12:47

instead I show curiosity,

12:50

what do you, how did you come to

12:52

think that? Why does that matter to you?

12:54

Tell me a little more about that. That

12:56

posture just, it moves from fighting about what

12:58

we disagree about, to understanding

13:01

you, which I think is the foundation

13:03

to then have the hard

13:05

conversation about where we do have tension. Yeah.

13:08

I mean, that goes to intellectual humility

13:10

or intellectual hospitality, which is an idea I

13:12

like. It goes to this idea that we

13:15

don't really see with our eyes, we

13:17

see with our biographies. It

13:19

goes with the tell me more idea, which is

13:21

we just beat to death on this show,

13:23

but it is this fundamental

13:26

position that it's going to take me

13:28

three, four, five questions

13:30

to even begin to understand where you're

13:32

coming from. Whoever's

13:35

decided that they can ask one question

13:37

and get there,

13:40

and have enough to make a

13:42

judgment about whether they want to go forward with this

13:44

person, or whether they want to back up, make

13:46

a judgment, and turn the other way, is

13:49

kidding themselves. Because when was the

13:51

last time we were able to be in

13:54

a single question? That just never

13:56

happens. We're more complicated than that every last

13:58

one of us. and

14:00

Kelly, I actually think you're being generous.

14:02

Like the one question is usually something

14:05

like, could you really be that

14:07

stupid? Which isn't a terrible- How could you believe

14:09

that? How could you believe that? So

14:12

our, you know, and maybe in

14:14

our lowest moments, our questions are not even

14:16

for the person we're talking to they're for

14:18

our team to show how like

14:20

righteous we are. Right? Like I'm going to

14:22

ask you a question that shreds what you

14:24

believe, because really I just

14:27

wanted my team to see that I'm

14:29

on side, right? I didn't really want

14:31

to get to know you. So five

14:33

questions that are honestly curious, humble questions.

14:35

That's like, we'd be

14:37

in really good shape if that was sort of

14:39

our normative behavior. I know. So let's just say

14:41

that. Let's just make sure to say five questions.

14:43

Yeah. Like resist the temptation

14:46

to come to a conclusion.

14:48

Live longer in

14:51

ambiguity. Do more discovery. And

14:54

even then, the agenda you're

14:56

proposing isn't to come to a

14:58

conclusion about a person. That's not the goal.

15:00

The goal is just to understand as

15:02

fully as conceivably possible where they're

15:04

coming from. That's super different

15:07

than convincing them that they're

15:09

wrong, that you're right. It's

15:11

super different than deciding whether you want

15:13

to know them. And

15:16

so the clarity of your agenda

15:19

seems like something worth

15:21

underlining here, which is

15:23

with every step, it's like, is this

15:25

next move I'm about to make interpersonally

15:27

getting me closer to my

15:29

goal, which is, let me reiterate

15:31

to myself, as I'm in

15:34

this hot conversation that's like stirring my

15:36

insides up, I just want

15:38

to understand what you believe and why and

15:40

how you came to it. The

15:43

end. Yep. The end. You know, I

15:45

often use as my guiding

15:47

light on this, it's like if my

15:50

kids were to see the video of me having

15:52

that conversation, would they say, I'm proud

15:54

of how our dad showed up. Like he

15:56

didn't get rolled and he didn't come off really

15:58

aggressive. He was able to see. that they're

16:00

firmly open-heartedly in the fire, we

16:02

often say strong backs off the front. I

16:05

love that. It's firm in what I

16:07

believe, but really open to you. Not a

16:10

lot of sharp edges, just available

16:12

to hear it, because I know where I stand.

16:14

And I want your life experience

16:16

to work on me. Like I want it to

16:18

impact me and shape me. And

16:21

so that's what I want out of

16:23

the conversation. Now, of course, like down the road,

16:25

there may be places where I think, I

16:28

don't think Kelly has seen this the way I see it. I

16:30

want to share more about that. Maybe Kelly

16:32

has some insight I don't have, and I could

16:34

benefit from it. But I spent

16:36

so many years in my career starting with,

16:38

I'm going to convince them to agree with

16:40

me. And it was tiring,

16:43

and I think it may have, in

16:45

the end, been somewhat counterproductive. And so

16:47

this posture, like, I just want to

16:49

understand how you got here and where you

16:51

come from and why you see it that way. And maybe

16:54

you'll trust me a little more then. And from

16:56

there, and this is what I've seen, which is,

16:58

I think, beautiful, with people very

17:00

skeptical about me. Like they think, progressive Jewish

17:02

guy from New York, da, da, da, they

17:05

have a very different biography, as

17:07

you said, right? They just come from a different world.

17:10

Those moves of listening and taking

17:12

them seriously and wanting to understand

17:14

and being curious, it builds

17:16

so much trust, because people are so

17:18

expecting the hostile questions.

17:21

They're expecting the attack. They're expecting the

17:23

judgment and the disdain. And if they

17:25

get a little love, they get a

17:27

little friendliness, they're like, oh, huh,

17:30

that's not what I was expecting here. Yeah. Who

17:32

doesn't love the scene where the guy's on the

17:34

stand and the lawyer comes in and they

17:36

ask a trick question and it's all revealed

17:39

and he wins. Like, I want

17:41

the truth. Yeah. You can't stand the truth.

17:43

You can't handle the truth. Yeah,

17:46

like those scenes are like, you know,

17:48

burned on our memory. And that's what

17:50

winning often looks like. What

17:53

are your favorite questions that you've used

17:55

over the years you've done this in

17:57

so many different environments that

17:59

you feel like? like, oh, there's something about that

18:01

phrasing or the timing of

18:03

that question that totally enables a

18:06

different quality of conversation. So

18:08

I think some of them are the content

18:11

of the questions themselves. Like, tell

18:13

me more about that, or what was that like for you? So

18:16

I think there's, oh, those kind of open-ended questions

18:18

are like my go-to. We always

18:20

say an open-ended question is one you can't answer yes

18:22

or no to. So that's that

18:25

bucket of questions. But I think

18:27

maybe related to

18:29

the best questions, there's some other important

18:32

things that are worth mentioning that sometimes

18:34

get missed, at least as I've come

18:36

to observe how this works. So

18:39

another is my

18:41

question is really a tool for helping

18:43

you unpack something that

18:45

might be bundled up. So

18:47

if you're like, oh, I'm looking at this

18:49

upcoming election and I'm scared and I'm angry

18:51

and I'm just tired, if

18:54

I say back to you, hold on,

18:56

wait, you're scared, you're angry

18:58

and you're just tired, you're all three things,

19:01

or one of those things is more than

19:03

the other. It could just

19:05

open up you being like, well, actually

19:07

I'm just tired, tired, right?

19:09

Which then takes the conversation in a

19:11

different direction. So in a way, it's

19:14

like a reflective question, but it's helping

19:16

you unpack things you've bundled together. It's

19:18

not like a question as much as

19:20

it is taking what the person said

19:23

to me and then pulling

19:25

it apart and reflecting it back as

19:27

a question. So that's one. One

19:29

question that I've seen you ask that

19:31

I think is very interesting is, is

19:34

there any way in which this conversation

19:37

is unsafe or threatening for you? Are

19:40

you taking a risk of

19:42

having this conversation? So

19:44

I think both asking it from

19:46

that side and then also asking,

19:48

it's like the risk reward framework.

19:51

So you can inquire like, is

19:54

this a risk for you? Tell me about the

19:56

risk to what extent are you afraid to be

19:58

having this conversation? Where is

20:00

fear creeping in for you? Where does that come from?

20:02

But also, I see you've decided to be

20:05

in the conversation. So what is the reward

20:07

for you? What is the upside of being

20:09

here? Because you must have made a calculation,

20:11

right? Like, ah, I'm not gonna win

20:13

points at home for doing this, but I think

20:16

it matters because of something. So giving

20:18

people that, and I think what I've

20:20

seen a lot is people

20:22

wanna be bigger than their own tiny

20:24

little life. Like we all wanna manage

20:26

our little home lives well, of course,

20:29

but there's like a human thing about

20:31

wanting to rise to the challenge if

20:33

we give people the chance and they

20:35

think it's serious. Right, if they think

20:37

it's like happy talk

20:39

or we're playing around, it's

20:41

not gonna matter. But if they

20:43

believe, if they're being taken seriously,

20:45

I think people will take risks

20:48

for rewards. Coming

20:53

up next, Simon explains what is so important

20:55

as he says, to get beneath the headline.

20:57

And he shares some ways to do it.

21:00

We'll be right back with Kelly Corrigan-Lenders. When

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Trends and conditions apply. Welcome

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22:23

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22:32

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22:39

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22:41

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22:43

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22:47

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22:59

let's get back to my conversation with

23:01

Master Bridge Beldel and High

23:51

Regard. As a person

23:54

who's operating in good faith,

23:56

who's fully informed, it's very

23:58

bright and experienced

24:00

with these kinds of conversations to

24:03

maybe learn something about her is worth

24:07

this risk that

24:09

I perceive vividly. Like

24:12

I've never been anxious about a podcast before, but

24:14

I am nervous about next week. Well,

24:17

so since you're nervous, here's a suggestion. Okay. And

24:19

it goes to the kind of questions that can

24:21

be helpful, right? So you've got, um, we

24:24

have the headline about this person in

24:26

April, right? Pro-life conservative. And

24:29

so one, you could go

24:31

toe to toe. I'm pro-choice. You're pro-life.

24:33

Boom. Probably won't go that well. But

24:35

how April did you come to see

24:38

it that way? And, and

24:40

I can tell from your tone that this

24:42

really matters to you and

24:44

walk me back over your journey that led

24:46

you here. Right? So I think I try

24:49

to take people from the headline down

24:51

a little bit, down a little bit,

24:53

and then back in time. And

24:55

those, that line of questioning, get me beneath

24:57

the headline, get me to why it matters,

24:59

get me to the root and

25:02

the journey that led you here. If you can take

25:04

people on the deeper and back timeline

25:06

on most tough issues, right? You

25:08

can at least likely, you'll at

25:10

least come to appreciate this is

25:12

a good person who went

25:15

on this journey and sees things this way.

25:17

And if you do the same, probably it's

25:19

mutual. You know, the tension then

25:21

is between you, like, well, whoever

25:24

wins on this, it has real

25:26

implications for your lives and

25:28

for what you both value most. You know?

25:31

Yeah. I think about sometimes

25:34

that flat line that you called out just there,

25:36

a pro-life conservative or

25:39

pro-choice liberal. And sometimes

25:41

I feel like I want to start with like, who

25:43

is your first kiss? Or like, have

25:45

you ever had a bad back? Or

25:47

tell me about your grandma. Like I just want

25:50

to bring a fuller picture of

25:52

you into the room. And

25:54

I want you to have a fuller picture of me

25:56

like I paint and I like to do puzzles. And

25:59

the last book I read that I loved was thinking

26:01

fast and slow and that we might Fill

26:04

out our humanity for one another so

26:07

that it puts the whole thing Into

26:11

context and it makes it not

26:13

the only true thing about us, but one of

26:16

500 true things about us. Yeah I mean in

26:18

the bridging the gap work and the work I've

26:20

done with corrections officers and people who are formally

26:23

incarcerated I would say We

26:25

hardly ever But certainly

26:27

not early In the

26:30

engagement would we talk about issues or

26:32

titles? labels

26:35

Like we'd start with what was tell me about

26:37

your values Tell me about your childhood share

26:39

an artifact from your life that helped shape who

26:42

you are Tell me whose shoulders you stand

26:44

on You know walk me

26:46

through the three key people and moments

26:48

that have shaped who you are today

26:50

Like all of that go for

26:52

a walk go talk about life

26:54

play a game together solve a problem

26:56

together like do all that because once

26:58

I know all those things about you

27:00

right to your point about not Flattening

27:03

like once I know all those

27:05

things about you now I can place in that context

27:07

like okay, and we disagree

27:09

pretty fundamentally about this thing, but

27:12

that's not of course as you said the totality

27:14

of you or me and the

27:18

chances are on Most of

27:20

these issues once you get into all

27:22

the complexities of those people because you've

27:24

unearthed all these questions about their stories

27:28

Probably you're not a hundred percent always

27:30

this exactly flat label and nor is

27:32

she right and that You know when

27:34

you trust each other a little you're

27:36

willing to give a little like actually

27:39

I see this point Oh,

27:42

actually I see this point and but I'm worried

27:44

that if I admit it The

27:46

other side is gonna run with it because there's no

27:48

good faith between us There's another layer to the

27:50

fear so the fear is either the other

27:52

side is gonna bury you with some

27:54

little admission of Inconsistency

27:57

or hypocrisy which is true of every

28:00

one of us. But a

28:02

corollary fear is that your team is going

28:05

to banish you because your

28:07

beliefs aren't pure enough.

28:10

You haven't represented well. That's

28:12

why bridge building is not for the faint of heart. Right.

28:16

Right? Like, you're going to get

28:18

everywhere. I

28:20

can't say I haven't gotten rewards for being

28:22

about bridge building these days. I think you've

28:24

heard me say this, but I know I'm

28:26

on the leading edge of my game here

28:28

because I'm always nervous about it. Any

28:31

bridge building conversation. I'm like, I didn't

28:33

represent my side well enough. Oh, I

28:35

didn't push them hard enough. Oh, I

28:37

gave in too early. Oh, I held

28:39

back too much because it's not a

28:42

script. It's not like I landed four

28:44

jabs. You landed two hooks. We're both

28:46

bruised and bleeding. Okay. We will

28:48

call it a draw. It's like, no, I want to like,

28:50

I want to make progress. I want to move forward

28:52

with you. And I don't know how

28:54

to find the past that's

28:57

going to let us do that, which

28:59

means I have to expose vulnerabilities and

29:01

uncertainties and self doubt, which our

29:03

team doesn't want and which the other side

29:06

like they smell taste blood. Right. So

29:08

the other thing about this is that it

29:10

takes so much time. Everything you're describing

29:12

because when I'm surfacing

29:15

a person's backstory about why they

29:17

believe something that I don't, I'm

29:20

not getting to share my story.

29:22

Like that piece of the puzzle

29:25

is waiting and I'm holding it

29:27

back. Right. My desire to

29:29

be understood must be sublimated

29:31

to my desire to understand

29:33

and all that time understanding all those

29:35

five questions and like, tell me about your

29:38

first kiss and the last time you had

29:40

a headache and your grandma,

29:42

like you're just minutes are rolling by

29:44

and it's an impatient world we live

29:46

in. Like people don't have minutes. So

29:49

do you feel like in a

29:51

normal, in a normal give and take of a human life,

29:54

not where you get to carve out three

29:56

weeks on a college campus with the Overland

29:59

kids and even. angelicals and

30:02

live together. But in

30:04

the give and take of a normal life with

30:06

a normal schedule, is it

30:08

really possible? I

30:10

don't know how else I would want to live. I

30:13

know my story and it's fun to tell

30:15

it, but what's most interesting is hearing the

30:17

other person. Not everybody thinks

30:19

that Simon Greer. Not everybody is

30:21

that interested in the other. Some people love telling

30:24

their shit over and over and over again. I

30:26

call it like rolling out their greatest hits.

30:29

They have this position paper.

30:31

They have this response. They've honed

30:34

it. They have a funny little example. They have

30:36

a cute phrase and they can't wait. As soon

30:38

as the conversation comes up, you can see them

30:40

sticking their little rock

30:42

in their slingshot and they're pulling it back, pulling

30:44

it back, pulling it back and they're like, here

30:46

we go. I'm going to like, wow, another crowd

30:49

with my super harden

30:51

position on blank. Yeah.

30:53

I mean, I like telling a good story too, but

30:56

I guess I think certainly if

30:58

you're in the business of making change

31:00

or having a legacy or impact, leadership

31:04

is synonymous with talking, not with

31:06

listening. So we're like, oh,

31:08

wow, he's a great leader. He gets

31:10

up there and he can give that

31:12

speech. We rarely say, she

31:15

listens so patiently. What an

31:17

amazing leader. You know

31:19

what we really rarely say Simon,

31:22

is he listens so patiently. That's

31:24

what we rarely say. Well,

31:26

I was trying to give credit to women

31:29

listening better and men liking

31:31

to speak more. That was my

31:33

intention. If

31:35

I had said he and he, then you

31:37

would have said, well, there's no shame, either

31:39

one. Anyway, I think we undervalue listening. We

31:42

don't think of it as a leadership skill.

31:44

What I was going to say really

31:47

directly to your question about, can you do

31:49

it in real life? My

31:51

wife and I have this jokes

31:54

reminder that when you've been away for work

31:57

travel and you come home, you should be

31:59

interested. interesting. So then,

32:02

and I think that's like, you

32:04

know, to is there time for it? Yes, you have

32:06

to sublimate I was on a work trip and I'm

32:08

so glad enough, you have to be like, Oh, tell

32:10

me more about how the day was, right? So that's

32:13

hard. But it

32:15

saves time later. Because if you

32:17

come home from your trip, and

32:20

you're so caught up in yourself, there will

32:22

be a fight coming. Right? It doesn't matter.

32:24

Like you're gonna fight about dinner or the

32:26

dishes or something. And so

32:29

better to just listen for 20 minutes and you'll

32:31

save yourself the battle. And I guess

32:33

I think that's true within a family. But I think

32:35

it's true in our work.

32:37

Like if you listen more, you're

32:39

going to have less hiccups,

32:42

catastrophes, explosions at work with

32:44

your friends. And so yeah,

32:47

be a little quieter.

32:50

Sometimes I think about it in the context

32:52

of sales, like it's so resonating for me

32:54

as someone who has to sell these projects

32:56

that I've picked up over the

32:59

years to various partners and

33:01

collaborators. And what you

33:03

learn when you're in those conversations is that you

33:05

can save yourself a lot of time on the

33:08

back end by finding out what they want and

33:10

what's important to them on the phone end. But

33:12

it's a mature understanding that comes

33:15

the hard way. It comes from

33:17

thinking that you've done a killer

33:19

job presenting your case, and

33:21

then never hearing from them again, because

33:23

you were just talking to something that's not that

33:25

valuable to them. That's not what's important to them

33:27

right now. It's not on their goals or agenda

33:29

for the year. So it's

33:32

like this learned thing, where

33:34

you actually shift from

33:36

doing it because it's the right thing to do

33:39

to doing it because it's the effective thing

33:41

to do. It's the most productive thing to do. It's

33:43

the most efficient thing to do. Are

33:46

we allowed to be cynical on this podcast?

33:49

Just a little. We make a little room

33:51

in every podcast hour for cynicism. All right,

33:53

so just give me one moment of cynicism.

33:56

So you had a very, I would say,

33:58

virtuous explanation of that exchange. like you're

34:00

pitching your thing, but you gotta listen to

34:03

hear their real interest, right?

34:05

And make sure you're meeting those interests. And I agree with

34:07

that. Unfortunately, in some of

34:09

my experience fundraising, I've had these lunches

34:11

where I ask

34:13

the donor questions the whole lunch about

34:15

themselves and their life. And

34:18

at the end, you know, I haven't really said much

34:20

about what I do or our work. And people

34:23

have said, well, you know, you're not a very

34:25

good fundraiser, you missed opportunity. And the person like

34:27

gives me a hug and they're like, you

34:30

are one smart man. And

34:32

I think, right, well, I

34:34

didn't say anything all lunch, but you heard

34:36

yourself talk. And so that's your

34:38

memory of lunches. I was very smart. And so

34:40

I know it's a little cynical, but I think

34:43

if you have the capacity, the room, to

34:46

let other people express themselves, you learn

34:48

a lot, you can grow, you can

34:51

save time later. And it should be less

34:53

boring. Like you should be more interested

34:56

in what you don't know than what you already

34:58

know. So it should

35:00

be natural. I'm trying to think about how

35:03

our human nature makes this more or less

35:05

difficult. This kind of works. So

35:07

obviously there's much been made of tribalism. And

35:10

of course it's a feature. And they've done

35:12

all these sad, terrible studies where like they

35:14

take kids and say the Brown eyed

35:16

kids are over here and the Blue eyed kids are over here.

35:18

And the next thing you know, best friends are at each other's

35:21

throat. So that's real. But

35:23

it's also real, like belonging is real.

35:26

It's a real intuitive and

35:29

existential desire of man. Are

35:32

there ways that you think our

35:35

nature is perfectly suited to

35:37

bridge building? We've talked a

35:39

lot about like listening in a way to the

35:41

content. And I actually think that

35:43

that's fine. But the real listening is like

35:45

when I see the vein in

35:48

your temple start throbbing or the blood rush to

35:50

your face, or you clench your fist or your

35:53

voice cracks when you tell a story. Now

35:55

we're in the important territory. And I

35:57

think humans are like.

36:00

We're very intuitive that way, right? Like you

36:02

can almost feel the energy coming

36:04

off the person, like, ah, she's phoning it

36:06

in, she's not really telling me anything new.

36:08

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that changed. Like

36:10

there, now we're talking. And I

36:13

think in that way, humans are,

36:15

when we're open, right, when we're

36:17

not in a rush, when we're not trying to get our point

36:19

across, it is like our

36:21

natural state to me, to feel

36:24

the energy and the signals from another person.

36:26

Maybe other animals do that too, I don't

36:28

really know, but I know humans do, and

36:30

I think it is

36:32

deeply satisfying for the listener and

36:35

for the person speaking. Like when you tell

36:37

me a story that's important to you and

36:39

you feel like I am here with you,

36:42

and then you get to that moment that's like really

36:45

heartbreaking and I, can it reflect back

36:48

to you? Like, gosh, Kelly, I see

36:50

that you're really nervous about this podcast

36:53

next week. I feel that. Like

36:56

it connects us in a way beyond which

36:58

tribe you're in, so

37:00

I think in that way we're like wired for

37:02

it, but we shut it off, because it's

37:04

actually hard. Like if each time you

37:07

feel the pain of somebody else or

37:09

the heartbreak or the fear, you actually

37:11

let it move you, that's a loss

37:13

you carry. And it's like, oh,

37:16

my whole day, it's much easier to just like give my

37:18

seven minute speech, done, go to the

37:20

next thing, you know? Yeah. I'm

37:23

gonna go back to Spring Harbor

37:25

and Oberlin and ask the

37:27

first week that you had those kids together,

37:31

you talked about these little set of

37:33

skills. That's like, let's just immerse ourselves

37:35

in these three ideas. What

37:37

are they? Are they still your favorite,

37:40

most essential three skills that you share?

37:43

And do you have any advice for how we can adopt

37:45

them? Yeah, so the

37:47

three are listening, storytelling and feedback.

37:49

Those are like my three go-to

37:51

skills. Listening, we've

37:54

been talking a lot about. It includes

37:56

these kind of open-ended questions and being

37:59

really curious. about other people and all that stuff.

38:02

Storytelling, we've also talked a little

38:04

bit about it's tempting to, when

38:06

you meet new people, like to

38:08

lead with opinions, right? And titles

38:10

and resumes, not stories. And so

38:12

we try to train people. The

38:15

question, how did you come to see it that way, leads

38:18

you to tell me

38:20

a story, not like, well, I read

38:22

this statistic. It's like, no, no, no,

38:24

I went through this journey. This

38:27

thing happened. And so we teach

38:29

people a bunch of, how do you tell

38:31

good stories? Like stories take place in a

38:33

time or in a place, right? Where

38:35

opinions and ideas don't tend to.

38:38

So we try to get people like, tell me about a

38:40

place that you love. Tell me about a conversation

38:43

you've had that was hard for you. So trying

38:45

to help people give details

38:47

when they tell stories. Like I use

38:49

this example a lot. I could say

38:51

I'm first-generation American. You might

38:54

know something about that or not. I can say, my

38:56

parents came from London on a boat in 1965 into New

38:58

York. That's where I

39:00

was born. It didn't take much longer,

39:03

but gosh, you know so much more about

39:05

me from that. And so we give examples

39:07

like that and help people practice their stories.

39:09

That's the second one. You

39:11

know, that totally reminds me of helping

39:13

kids with their college essays.

39:16

Like over the years, friends will say,

39:18

oh, we look at Lucy's

39:20

essay, we look at Emma's essay. And

39:23

I'm always saying that exact thing,

39:26

which is it's more or less the same number of words

39:29

for you to say when I was 12 as when I was

39:31

little. And

39:34

it's almost as many words to say

39:36

I lost the game as

39:40

we lost 11-6 to our tribal. Like,

39:43

you know, it's so easy to lay

39:47

in those details that

39:49

make a story feel true, which

39:52

is essential I would think in bridge building. Like

39:54

it has to resonate as something that is true.

39:58

And where someone's... putting

40:00

you there. That's

40:02

what you could be in the

40:04

story yourself. So as soon as

40:06

it becomes hyper relatable, and the weird thing

40:08

about details is that you would think they

40:11

would make it less relatable. Because if

40:13

you say you played softball and I played lacrosse, now

40:16

I'm not relating. It's not how we work at

40:18

all. We just map it to ourselves instantly and

40:20

without effort. So I'm

40:24

just underlining detail works

40:26

in all kinds of ways. If you just try to connect as

40:28

a matter of person, for the joy of it,

40:30

not even to build a bridge, like

40:33

more detail is better. And then what's

40:35

your third skill? A third one

40:37

is called feedback, and it's really the art of

40:39

when something hard does happen between us. So I've

40:41

listened to you, that's built some trust. I've shared

40:44

my story, you've shared yours. Right

40:46

now we understand each other in the

40:48

nuances and the complexity of who we

40:51

are. But now there's something hard between

40:53

us. And so the art of

40:55

feedback, we use this thing called the four eyes. So

40:58

if I'm going to have a tough conversation with you, I'm

41:00

going to start with my intention. And

41:02

we always say the intention has to be

41:04

positive. Like if I just want revenge, let's

41:07

call it payback, not feedback. But

41:10

that's a different thing, right? And you train differently for that. Maybe

41:12

there's a punching bag, but that's different. So

41:16

the four eyes of feedback, the first eye is

41:18

my intention. And my intention would be like, you

41:20

know, Kelly, I really like working with you. I

41:22

think we could even work better together if we

41:24

could sort out some of the places where

41:26

we've gotten stuck. Right? So that's why

41:28

I want to have a conversation and I would say it to

41:30

you and you'd be like, okay, makes me a little anxious, but

41:32

all right, I'll try. And then I have

41:34

to have the incident. So

41:37

I can't just say like, you're

41:39

impossible to work with or, oh, I'm

41:42

so tired of how you don't reply

41:44

to anything I say. It's like,

41:47

I can't work with that. But if you say

41:49

like, what are the goods? What is the incident

41:51

I'm talking to you about last week? I sent

41:53

you this email. You didn't reply, right? That's

41:56

facts. So and you'd

41:58

say maybe, oh, I remember. that yes,

42:01

I was very busy or I didn't get

42:03

it or whatever. But I start with my

42:05

positive intention, then I give you the goods,

42:07

the incident I want to talk about, right?

42:09

And it's factual. And

42:11

then I disclose the impact. And this is

42:14

often hard for people. Like it's tempting. You

42:16

didn't reply to my email because you

42:18

don't respect me. Right? That's accusing you

42:21

of what your motivations were. Probably

42:24

not going to be received that well.

42:26

If I say you didn't reply to

42:28

me, and honestly, I was

42:30

really nervous about coming on this podcast. And so

42:32

I didn't know where I stood with things. That's

42:35

certainly not your intention by not replying to me.

42:37

And note, Kelly does reply to me. So it's

42:39

not trying to have like a subtext.

42:41

No, no. So

42:44

I would then disclose the impact

42:46

it had on me. And then the fourth

42:48

eye is the invention. What would I like

42:50

us to do differently next time? Uh huh.

42:52

And it's a pretty simple framework, intention,

42:55

incident, impact, invention. But we

42:59

teach it and then we literally like practice

43:01

it. So you're driving home, you're gonna go

43:04

see your best friend and you know,

43:07

this thing's been tense between you. So think to

43:09

yourself, what is my intention in talking to her

43:11

about this? What is the incident I

43:13

want to raise? What's the impact it had on

43:15

me? What is my invention for how we could

43:17

do it differently? And then go through those steps.

43:19

Because sometimes, I mean, maybe you've seen this too,

43:21

I have people who will say to me like,

43:24

Oh, so and so did this at work.

43:27

And I really told him

43:29

like, that's not gonna happen again,

43:31

I let him know. And I'll say, Oh, you

43:33

told him that? Well, no, but that's what I

43:36

thought I want to say. It's like, right. So

43:38

you didn't actually do anything, you just like, probably

43:40

vented to a friend, yeah, add

43:42

to the toxicity in your workplace. Yeah, but

43:45

this four step model really lets people have

43:47

a system that's simple and reliable, because it's

43:49

four eyes, people can remember it. And they

43:51

have a method. So I

43:54

wondered if in all the context

43:58

in which you've tried this bridge. building stuff.

44:01

Is religion the most complicated?

44:05

Like when somebody says to a

44:07

bisexual girl, I think that you are sinning.

44:09

I think you are a sin. And I

44:12

think your relationships are sinful. Or

44:15

when somebody says to a nice

44:17

Jewish guy like you, you

44:19

are food for worms. There's no future

44:22

in which God would

44:24

welcome you into some heavenly

44:26

place. Because

44:29

it's based

44:31

on beliefs versus

44:33

experiences, and

44:36

because it's so damning, quite

44:39

literally, does

44:41

it make for the most

44:43

tension between people based on what you've

44:46

seen in all these years, decades, that

44:48

you've been doing this kind of work?

44:51

It's such a good

44:54

question. There's some level

44:56

in which I think religion,

44:58

at least at this moment in America, is

45:00

not the one we get to first. People

45:03

argue about politics, or they

45:06

argue about race or gender

45:08

before they get into religion.

45:11

Like the Elizabeth example about the

45:13

afterlife, that was not our first

45:15

conversation. And so I

45:18

was thinking, does that make it harder or easier?

45:20

In a way, it makes it easier because we

45:22

built up some rapport and some trust. But

45:24

it makes it harder because it's pretty deep. There's

45:28

no proving it. You can win

45:36

an election, lose an election, you can vote

45:38

for this, vote for that. But on this

45:40

one, it's a deeply

45:42

held thing, something I deeply believe

45:44

and I cannot prove, or I cannot

45:46

prove to you. And so that makes

45:48

it, I think, very, it can

45:51

be a real quagmire. And

45:55

also, what's

45:58

happening there is, Talk

46:00

about being in danger by having

46:03

the conversation. I

46:06

have a friend who

46:08

became very religious later in life, well

46:10

after his children were born, well after

46:13

he had built a very secular existence.

46:16

It involved a lot of golf and

46:18

NFL football. Then all

46:20

of a sudden, he really was an

46:22

evangelical. I remember

46:25

talking to him and thinking, to

46:28

the extent that I open the

46:30

door to this conversation, I

46:33

may be risking my own

46:35

beliefs. If

46:37

I am entering this with a

46:39

willingness to be changed by what he tells me, I

46:42

could end up going to this church next week. And

46:45

then I could end up giving all our money to

46:47

this church. And then I could end up knocking on

46:49

doors and handing out Bibles on

46:51

street corners. So there is, with

46:54

religion, I feel there

46:56

is this intense risk,

46:58

especially for

47:00

a deeply religious person to

47:02

say, but now I

47:05

have this friend and she's bisexual.

47:07

And now I have this friend and she's

47:09

marrying a woman. And now

47:11

I have this friend and he's Jewish and he

47:13

wants to bar mitzvah his son and I want

47:15

to go. What

47:18

does that mean for my deeply held

47:20

beliefs? Because the thing that has surfaced

47:22

over and over again in this series

47:24

is that the closer to your core

47:27

identity a belief hits, the

47:30

more ferociously you will hold it and

47:34

guard it. Yeah, I'm 100% with

47:37

you on the deeply held beliefs and

47:40

the ferocity front. I've

47:42

often advised people working in politics

47:45

or whatever that pretty much for most

47:47

people, God, family and country, that's

47:50

what matters to people. Maybe football, but

47:52

God, family, country, and maybe football. And

47:54

if you sound like those things don't

47:56

matter to you, you are

47:58

operating outside of... people's common sense.

48:01

And if you live outside someone else's common sense,

48:03

you can tell me you have the best policy

48:06

proposal for how you're gonna fix this, that, or

48:08

the other thing, but you're like a Martian. Like,

48:10

I'm trying to tell you, my

48:12

God, my family, my country, and

48:14

my football team are what I

48:16

most value. And you

48:18

say, let's put those aside and talk

48:21

about the important things like economic policy.

48:23

Actually, I just don't care. Like, you sound

48:25

like a weird intruder. And if

48:28

you now start to challenge, like you've said,

48:30

you don't really care about my things, but

48:33

you have a point of view about who should

48:35

be able to get married to who, and what

48:37

our country should look like, and what is patriotic,

48:39

and what you think about my God. Now

48:43

you're attacking my things after kind of

48:45

diminishing them. So I

48:49

think those things are, they matter,

48:51

as I said, because it's how we make up common

48:53

sense. It's how we understand the world. And

48:55

so if you're gonna come at me about

48:57

the things that are the linchpins of how

48:59

I understand the world, you

49:01

have to take them seriously, even if you understand

49:04

the world differently. Yeah. A

49:06

long time ago, I had a girlfriend who wasn't Jewish,

49:09

but she was very into Jewish things. And

49:11

at the time, this is a long

49:14

time ago, I was not terribly connected

49:16

to my Judaism in an outward way.

49:18

I was inside, but not outwardly. And

49:21

she said something to me like, well,

49:25

I'm more interested in Judaism than you are.

49:28

And it was like, it

49:30

literally was the end of the relationship, even if it

49:32

took a year to end. And

49:35

I said back to her, the only difference is Hitler

49:38

wouldn't have killed you. Like,

49:40

that's a, like, whoa, all she said

49:42

was like, she's really into Judaism more

49:44

than I seem to be, because I'm

49:46

not reading anything about Judaism. And it

49:48

went to like Holocaust genocide, right? So

49:50

it's an example, right? Of just

49:53

how deeply religion cuts. But

49:55

I would argue for a lot of people, family

49:58

and country do too, are

50:00

the building blocks of how we, at least

50:02

in this country, construct our understanding

50:04

of the world. Right, and that's a human

50:06

nature thing. Like, we got to limit.

50:09

We have to narrow. Like, we need

50:12

something reduced, a

50:15

place to operate from that does

50:17

not consider every nuance an

50:20

impossible interpretation. Like you have to

50:23

make some strong decisions about what matters to

50:25

you most, and there can't be 10 things

50:27

on that list. You

50:29

know, it's really just your mind. Yeah, though I

50:32

think it's really interesting because I was sort

50:34

of wondering about this as you

50:36

were asking the question. You

50:38

can deeply hold your God, your

50:40

family, your country, but your

50:42

understanding of them can make a lot

50:44

of room for other people. That

50:47

doesn't mean you don't take them seriously. So I

50:49

know some Christians who are like the

50:51

love of Jesus. Like it's never

50:54

ending. And it loves the bisexual

50:57

Jewish woman. It loves the sinner.

50:59

It loves the, you know, prostitute.

51:01

It doesn't like Jesus was not,

51:03

did not draw my religion. But

51:06

from what I learned, like didn't

51:08

draw those narrow lines. So why

51:10

is it that you see some

51:12

people who are fervently with Jesus

51:15

drawing very narrow lines? Right.

51:18

You could say the same about like, I love my wife and

51:20

my kids, like, literally like take

51:22

a bullet for them. And

51:24

someone else may have a different gender

51:27

of their partner or have come

51:29

to have children in a different way. And

51:32

but like, it doesn't mean they

51:34

can't love them just like that too. And

51:36

so I can, I can love America. I'm

51:38

so glad my parents immigrated to this country. I would

51:41

not want to live anywhere else. And

51:43

I understand all the blemishes, not just

51:45

blemishes, like deep scars

51:48

and agony that have and

51:50

do exist in this country. But I love

51:52

America. And can't I,

51:55

so can't we share how

51:58

passionately I'm about my faith tradition. how

52:00

passionately I feel about

52:02

family, about country, and

52:04

still make room for you seeing your things

52:06

differently. Because I think often what

52:08

happens is the people who really

52:11

believe in God, family, and country, they

52:13

have a narrow definition, and the other

52:15

people are like softies. They don't take those things

52:17

that seriously. And I think it's unfair. Like I

52:19

think the truth is, I can

52:22

interpret these things generously and

52:24

be strident about my commitment to

52:26

them. And maybe that's territory we

52:28

kind of have to reclaim. So

52:30

it's not like those things don't

52:32

matter people versus that those things

52:34

do matter people. Like they matter

52:36

a lot to me, but I

52:38

see them much more generously, open-heartedly,

52:42

poriously, even though I'm

52:44

not soft on them. Yeah. Yeah,

52:47

maybe the commonality is the

52:49

passion. It's not the name

52:52

of your religion, the name of your God,

52:55

but rather the way we can relate is, this

52:57

is so important to me. And then a

53:00

Muslim could say, this is so important to me.

53:02

And a Catholic could say, this is so important

53:04

to me. This is the center of my life. And the

53:06

other person would say, oh no, I

53:09

know. I know what it feels like to have a

53:11

center of your life. Mine's

53:14

a different color, but who cares? Like the

53:16

point is I'm grounded by

53:18

my faith and everyone could sign

53:20

on to that as a point of agreement. Can

53:23

you take us for the last minute we have

53:25

together? Can you take us back to campus, back

53:28

to your Oberlin kids and your

53:30

Spring Harbor kids and tell me one

53:32

thing that you left there with that

53:34

you thought, this really makes

53:37

me feel hopeful. The spring

53:39

I observed. The hopeful

53:41

thing is these young

53:43

people. I mean, they were

53:45

not handpicked because they understood

53:48

what bridge building was. They weren't

53:50

soft on their politics at Oberlin

53:52

and soft on their faith at

53:55

Spring Harbor. They're like students

53:57

doing the best they can. And when

53:59

they... encountered the other in the

54:02

right context. They built real

54:05

relationships. You know, the Javi

54:07

Elizabeth, which is the bisexual Jewish lady

54:09

and the African-American evangelical, they have gone

54:11

to bat for each other in very

54:13

hard situations with family and friends. Like

54:16

they've stuck with each other. Two

54:18

years after we did Bridging the Gap, we

54:21

did a reunion. And one of our

54:23

participants was deployed. She was in the military, she was

54:25

in Korea, and she talked about how she used the

54:27

Bridging the Gap skills with her platoon. And

54:30

another person had gone into criminal justice work because

54:32

that was the issue we had tackled in

54:34

Bridging the Gap. And someone else had gotten

54:36

a Fulbright and she was using the Bridging

54:38

the Gap skills there. And two of them

54:40

were working together. And I just thought, we

54:42

had a powerful three weeks together. You

54:45

know, that's great. But it's their

54:47

appetite for it and their willingness to

54:49

stick with it year in, year

54:51

out, after our time together that makes me

54:53

think, if we just give them the tools

54:55

and we encourage them and say, the

54:58

heroes are the bridge builders. It's not the

55:00

cowards, it's not the bullies, it's the bridge

55:02

builders who carry the day. I think they're

55:04

ready to rise to the challenge and step

55:06

into it. Thanks.

55:08

Thanks for your work. Thanks for your time. Thanks

55:11

for being my friend. Thanks,

55:13

Kelly. This is still fun. Here

55:18

are my takeaways from my conversation with Simon

55:20

Greer. Number one, it

55:22

might be in our lowest moments anyway,

55:25

that our questions are not even really

55:27

directed at the person

55:29

we're talking to. They are to show our team how righteous we

55:31

are. Number two, whoever

55:34

out there wants to make t-shirts

55:36

that say five questions, we

55:38

are happy to support that project. Number

55:41

three, strong back, soft

55:44

front. Number four,

55:46

people wanna be bigger than their own

55:49

tiny life. Number five,

55:51

get beneath the headline and

55:53

start wondering, what about this

55:55

matters most to you? Number

55:58

six, bridge building. is not for the

56:01

faint of heart. Number

56:03

seven, maybe if

56:05

we spent more time trying

56:07

to be interested instead of

56:09

being interesting, we might learn

56:11

more. Number eight, get

56:13

good at taking feedback. Number nine,

56:15

when all else fails, maybe the

56:17

thing you have in common with

56:20

the person who most disagrees with

56:22

you is your passion,

56:25

and that's not nothing. Number

56:27

10, the heroes are not

56:29

the cowards or the bullies. The

56:31

heroes are the bridge builder. Thank

56:34

you, Carmen Greer. Thank you, Arthur Binding

56:37

Davis Foundation for your generous support of

56:39

this series. Thanks also to my

56:41

team at Kelly Clurigan Wonders, technical producer,

56:43

Dean Kateri, executive producer, Tani Steadman,

56:45

as well as Rachel Hicks and

56:47

Charlie Upchurch who help us stay

56:50

connected to all of you. Finally,

56:52

thanks to you all for listening

56:54

and sharing, rating and reviewing. We'll

56:58

be back on Friday with another go-to and on Sunday with

57:00

a new thanks for being here. In

57:02

the meantime, I'll see you on Instagram at Kelly Clurigan or

57:06

in my email box, hello at

57:08

kellyclurigan.com. Thank

57:27

you.