0:10

Maybe you remember Paul Bear

0:12

Vosquez, the guy who put a video on YouTube

0:14

back in twenty ten to share this rainbow

0:16

he saw over the hills in Yosemite

0:18

California.

0:19

Whoa. That's a full rainbow. All

0:22

the way. Double

0:24

rainbow. Oh my

0:25

god. It's a double rainbow

0:27

all the way. Whoa. That's

0:31

so THERETH. Reporter: AS HE'S FILMING,

0:33

AS WE'RE WATCHING WITH BARE BOSKITS, HE

0:35

BOOPES PASSED A TREE THAT'S BEEN BLOCKING

0:37

PART OF HIS VIEW AND REALIZES THE

0:39

SUN HAS peaked out from behind a cloud,

0:42

lighting up the hills, and making that

0:44

double rainbow even more intense.

0:46

Oh my god. Whoa. Oh.

0:53

Wow. That

0:57

my friends is a man in

0:59

awe. And while the grainy video

1:01

doesn't quite do it justice, it's impossible

1:04

to hear Baer Vasquez's jaw and

1:06

wonder and not think, I'll have

1:08

what he's having. From in

1:11

Dallas, this is Think. I'm Chris

1:13

Boyd. Surprisingly, the experience

1:16

of awe went somewhat overlooked in scientific

1:18

research for a long time, despite

1:21

the fact that it's a universal thing among

1:23

humans and delivers powerful emotional

1:25

and physiological benefits. Finally,

1:28

Docker Keltner began studying awe.

1:30

Then based on what he's learned so far, he's

1:32

concluded it's an important component for

1:35

our well-being. Keltner is Professor

1:37

of Psychology at the University of California,

1:39

Berkeley, and the faculty director of

1:41

the Greater Good Science Center there.

1:43

His new book is called A. The new

1:46

science of everyday wonder and how it can

1:48

transform your life. Deckard, welcome

1:50

to think. It's great to be

1:52

with you, Chris.

1:53

What is awe exactly? Do we always

1:56

know it when we're experiencing it?

1:59

Well, that's two different questions and they're both

2:01

complicated. Or

2:04

I define as the feeling that we

2:06

have when we encounter vast

2:08

mysteries in life. And then I've done a

2:10

lot of work on what those vast mysteries are

2:12

from natural experiences like

2:15

the double rainbow to music to spirituality

2:18

to other people. And

2:20

then do we know when

2:22

we are feeling on and on as mysterious?

2:24

Right? It's often hard to describe. It's hard

2:26

to put down into words. And

2:28

the science really helps us here because

2:30

the science tells us that when

2:33

we feel from whatever

2:35

source that it comes from, we will

2:37

tend to feel smaller,

2:39

quieter, less stressed

2:42

out. We will feel it

2:44

in our bodies with tears and goosebumps

2:46

and maybe a warmth in your chest.

2:49

So we've really learned a lot about how

2:51

to identify when this really

2:54

mysterious and powerful emotion happens

2:56

to us.

2:57

Smaller and quieter are

2:59

focusing effect because our culture tells

3:01

us we will be the most happy,

3:03

the most self actualized when we're

3:05

the center of attention and the most important

3:08

in the room. It sounds like you're talking about

3:10

exactly the opposite.

3:11

Thank you. And that

3:14

was one of the central discoveries in

3:16

writing this book and doing research and

3:18

gathering stories and writing my own story

3:21

of of awe, which is, you

3:23

know, when people have written

3:25

about awe from spiritual experiences, like

3:27

the Christian mystic, Julian of Norwich,

3:29

to Ralfaldo Emerson, to, you know, to

3:32

others. They they have this recurrent theme

3:34

of saying things like, I disappeared.

3:37

I'm small. I'm nothing in Julian

3:39

of Norwich as language. And we Our

3:41

studies do indeed show a

3:43

brief experience of awe. Quiets

3:46

down that nagging neurotic voice.

3:49

Called yourself. Like, you're not, you know, you're

3:51

not working hard enough. You're late. You gotta do

3:53

better, you know, check your Instagram

3:55

and all clients that all down.

3:57

And, you know, to your point, Chris, a

4:00

lot of social scientists are very

4:02

worried about how self

4:04

focused and narcissistic our culture is.

4:06

Right? We take pictures of ourselves. We think

4:09

about cells. We grandize ourselves,

4:11

pursue self esteem. And a lot of research

4:13

shows that's the worst thing you can do.

4:15

Right? That actually makes you ruminate, it

4:18

makes yourself critical. It makes you depressed and

4:20

anxious. So here's an emotion

4:22

awe, which frees us of

4:24

those burdens of the self. So

4:26

your prescription for a happy life is for

4:29

us to find all, which I

4:31

mean sounds challenging enough

4:33

for those of us who only associate all

4:35

with, like, transcendent rare moments, and

4:38

we'll talk about that. But in order

4:40

to study all this for

4:42

years in a lab set you had to find

4:44

a version of awe that could fit there.

4:46

How did you do that?

4:48

So we did a couple of different things Chris

4:50

to really, I think, get at the essence

4:52

of awe. One is we really

4:54

figured out laboratory studies and use

4:57

nature imagery of videos

4:59

of morally inspiring people

5:02

who are kind and courageous like mother

5:04

Teresa. Right? Are awe inspiring.

5:06

We could do it in the lab, and that was encouraging. We

5:09

did a lot of our research outside

5:11

of the lab, and we have studied people

5:13

at Yosemite, looking

5:15

out at vast views, music

5:17

venues and mosh pits. You know,

5:20

people studied backpackers. And

5:23

so a lot of people started to study where

5:25

it really occurs naturally. And then

5:27

the third thing that really, you know,

5:29

struck me about this work

5:31

is I started to feel

5:34

in my understanding of all scientifically

5:36

that you can't just get it with

5:38

measures, right, that you have to get people's

5:40

stories. And

5:42

so we gathered stories of all

5:45

from twenty six countries.

5:47

And we've I've also personally in the book

5:49

just interviewed a lot of people. So

5:52

all was left off the list

5:54

of kind of universal emotions studied

5:57

by neuroscientists what

6:00

were the reasons for that? Beyond the difficulty with

6:02

measuring it, was it just understood to

6:04

sort of fit into other categories better?

6:08

Yeah, it's a bit of a mystery

6:11

and scientists are not

6:13

always unbiased in what they study.

6:15

Mhmm. You know? And in

6:17

point of fact, a lot of

6:19

the early thinkers writing about

6:21

all Descartes Aristotle.

6:25

Others have said awe or wonder

6:27

is a fundamental feeling. It's a

6:30

basic state of mind So

6:32

there was precedent in the philosophical

6:35

literature, Charles Darwin wrote

6:37

about several states related to awe,

6:39

like astonishment, in reverence, but

6:41

science hadn't really looked at all. And think there

6:43

are a few reasons, you know. One is

6:46

we stereotype it as religious emotion.

6:49

Which it's not necessarily. And

6:51

I think scientists were late to study

6:53

religion. Another is

6:55

it feels a little bit like new AG

6:58

Right? Like, you're sitting in a hot tub.

6:59

Like, let's talk about all. You know? And

7:03

pass the song. Right?

7:05

Exactly. And, you know, and so

7:07

scientists are a little bit cautious

7:10

sometimes in what they study and they're like, oh, I don't

7:12

wanna be the scientists who studies

7:14

all. Look at Timothy Leary, what an embarrassment

7:16

he was, you know. So

7:18

we were late to the game in

7:20

studying as opposed to things like anger

7:23

and then, you know, fear and what I

7:25

have studied like compassion and amusement

7:27

and laughter and love. But now there's

7:29

a robust science of art and we're making

7:32

a lot of progress.

7:33

You know, it's interesting because I'm thinking

7:35

about that cut we played in the

7:37

introduction. When you hear Bear Voskas,

7:39

might might children -- Yeah. -- first discovered

7:42

this. We were on a vacation, and they just thought it was

7:44

the funniest thing. And we all kind of left at his enthusiasm

7:47

going back -- Mhmm. -- and listening to

7:49

it with a more open spirit,

7:51

it's impossible not to be moved

7:53

by it, but we do have to sort of

7:55

let go of that natural

7:58

cynicism that seems to be part of our lives

8:00

as Americans.

8:01

I agree. And and part of the reason

8:04

is that by

8:06

its very nature challenges our

8:08

ordinary perception of reality. Right?

8:11

You know, you may have the ah that you

8:13

feel as

8:16

I did about seeing a lightning storm come

8:18

over me while I was backpacking, or you may have an

8:20

extraordinary experience like Mark Twain,

8:23

who really had this dream about his brother

8:25

dying, and then two a week later he died almost

8:27

in the manner in which he dreamed. So

8:29

you have these experiences that

8:32

challenge are often cynical kinda

8:35

status quo view of reality. And

8:37

as a result, we often

8:39

disparage people's experiences of ours.

8:41

We treat them cynically like, ah, you know, he's

8:43

just He's out of his mind.

8:45

He's, you know, he's on drugs

8:48

or whatever. But in point of fact, those

8:51

experiences of all, like bare

8:53

vasquez where he cries and

8:55

sobs and vocalizes and

8:57

shouts and really feels like he's

8:59

encountered something fundamental are actually

9:02

really they're

9:04

present at important moments in history.

9:07

You know, Thomas Clarkson was

9:09

a young guy and he wrote an essay against

9:11

slavery And what led to that

9:13

essay, which led to the abolitionist movement,

9:15

was an experience of of astonishment

9:18

and awe. He thought about the idea

9:20

that that Western Europeans were

9:22

enslaving Africans, and

9:24

he fell off his horse, started sobbing and

9:26

crying and had this epiphany, like, that

9:29

is morally unacceptable.

9:31

I've got to change that. So even though

9:33

Vasquez seems great, you know, out of control,

9:36

sometimes we need

9:37

that. We need new insights too. Kind

9:39

of change society? So

9:42

when you recommend we find art to live

9:44

a good life, it tends sound like

9:46

a tall order. Right? Like, I'm super

9:48

excited to live in a place that is like

9:51

prime viewing for the next total

9:53

solar eclipse, but that's more than a year

9:55

away. You actually

9:57

found the most common source

9:59

of awe for people is

10:01

other people.

10:03

Yeah, you know, one

10:05

of the interesting things in studying on

10:08

writing this book on is we have a lot

10:10

of conceptions about all. Just

10:12

like we have misconceptions about gender

10:14

and, you know, class and all kinds

10:16

of important phenomena out And

10:19

and one of the misconceptions is

10:21

that awe is really

10:24

hard to find and it's really reserved

10:26

for people with a lot of money and they fly to

10:28

us. Australia and have a resort, experience

10:31

in resort on the barrier reef. But

10:33

in point of fact, what the science

10:35

tells us is every day, oh, it's

10:37

all around us. Right? And

10:39

the most common source of awe,

10:43

we found when we had people

10:45

from twenty six countries from Mexico

10:47

to India to Japan to pull into the

10:49

US, write a story of all,

10:52

is other people, you know, other people's

10:54

kindness, just

10:56

yesterday, I was walking to school, and I saw

10:59

a college student give thirty dollars

11:01

to an unhouse guy. She came out of the store and just gave

11:03

it to him. Like, wow. You know,

11:05

other people's courage, right,

11:07

when they face down, you

11:10

know, abusive power or what

11:12

have you. And other people who

11:14

overcome obstacles, I remember a story

11:17

we gathered from Ireland where

11:19

a mom had paid birth

11:21

to a daughter who had club feet, and

11:23

she was watching the daughter a decade

11:25

later, dance on the stage. And

11:28

just was a wash and tears and goosebumps

11:30

and all. I'll just like look at my daughter what

11:33

she has overcome. So yeah,

11:35

you know, Chris, We

11:37

live in a cynical world. Facebook

11:39

or meta games, what we the content

11:42

we see so that it makes us angry and enraged.

11:44

But in point of fact, you know,

11:46

we often find the deepest awe

11:49

and just the kind of the kindness and

11:51

courage of other people around us.

11:53

We all have the capacity to experience

11:56

all, but I wonder how individual the

11:58

things are that trigger

11:59

it. Like, our certain experiences likely

12:02

to create off for everyone? Yeah.

12:05

That's a terrific question. And, you know,

12:08

And in part, it's the I

12:10

think one of the the very

12:12

magical and mysterious qualities of

12:14

awe, which is that It

12:17

is both totally personal

12:20

and idiosyncratic and reflects

12:23

your life history and your family and

12:25

where you live geographically in your culture.

12:28

And at the same time, it's universal. Right?

12:30

There's something universal to the experience. I

12:33

And I may ask you a question, Chris. But

12:35

I was teaching about

12:37

all, and there's this group of people there. And I said,

12:39

tell me about a time. When

12:41

you were at a a musical event

12:44

or concert and you felt aw and you

12:46

teared up and you just felt overwhelmed

12:48

by the

12:49

music. Right? Can

12:51

you tell me a recent experience of that, Chris, for

12:53

you? I can tell you every time I see

12:56

people doing cultural dancing, I burst

12:58

into tears. It doesn't

13:00

have to be my culture. I'm no dancer

13:02

myself, but something about that gets me

13:04

every single

13:06

time. I used to be embarrassed by it, and now I realized

13:08

that was off. That's amazing.

13:10

And, you know, and that's illustrative

13:12

here because I kind of feel

13:14

that way. I really admire it, but I don't

13:16

burst into tears. But I know what you're talking

13:19

about, you know, that, wow, this is particular

13:21

to Chris. But yeah, you know,

13:23

in this this teaching

13:25

of all when I ask people about music and our listener

13:27

can do this too. Everybody told a totally

13:30

personal story. Right? Oh, I was at

13:32

a hip hop show or it was Bob

13:34

Dillon or it was Garth Brooks,

13:36

you know. Totally different kinds of music. It was

13:38

Mollers Symphony number two. Totally

13:42

different. We wouldn't feel all within that context,

13:44

but we all understood how

13:47

music brings us all in a sense of meaning.

13:50

So, yeah, it's very personal. And

13:52

my hope when readers read this book

13:54

is they kind of sense a roadmap

13:57

with all the wonders of life that bring us all

13:59

that they can go pursue personally and

14:01

then also respect the other ways that

14:03

other people find all.

14:05

Let's talk a little bit more about the

14:07

time that you spent at San Quinton,

14:10

this would be a place where I think a lot of people

14:12

who have never done time would assume

14:14

nothing good can happen, nothing profound

14:17

can happen. You found people maybe

14:19

needed all more than ever and

14:22

went out of their way to generate

14:24

it.

14:26

It, you know, you just gave me chills. They cared about

14:28

the question, and it's so interesting how

14:30

contagious awe is. Yeah,

14:33

you know, I read

14:35

up on solitary and the horrors

14:38

of solitary confinement and

14:40

worked on that legally. And

14:42

then I got an invitation to go speak

14:45

at San Quentin and as part of what's called

14:48

restorative justice, which is where

14:50

people have harmed other human beings

14:52

or the environment make amends

14:55

and they apologize and try to restore things.

14:57

And a really rich prisoner

14:59

led program in San Quentin. This

15:01

prison has about four thousand prisoners,

15:03

I think, and a death row. And so

15:06

as part of the experience It's

15:08

a full day. You're

15:11

part of a little volunteer team, maybe six

15:13

to eight people. You go in

15:16

you go through these giant prison doors, which

15:18

is almost like a theater experience,

15:20

like, oh my god, you know.

15:22

And then you spend the day in the chapel

15:24

sharing stories with a hundred and eighty

15:27

prisoners. And

15:30

I, you know, I the whole

15:32

thing was astonishing, and I was slightly

15:34

fearful. Like, whoa. What if, you know,

15:36

what if they capture me or whatever? These

15:38

guys are big. They're lifting weights. And

15:43

in the, you know,

15:45

the first thing that's awe inspiring

15:47

about it and and horrifying in some sense

15:49

is is just to hear the life stories. You know,

15:51

these are people who have

15:53

overcome so much, you know, just a

15:56

lots of drama in their background. Very

15:58

serious trauma. Trauma

16:01

that you it defies the

16:03

imagination to think is real.

16:06

And then I had my experience where I was up.

16:08

They asked me to give a talk. I was speaking about

16:10

compassion and all. And

16:12

on a a whim, I

16:14

I looked at it, the hundred and eighty guys in

16:16

blue. And I and I said, well,

16:19

what gives you guys all? And

16:21

that's a question I've been asking thousands

16:23

of people. And

16:26

their answers were like

16:28

Heiko poetry. They were you

16:31

know, my visiting with my

16:33

daughter and touching her hand or

16:35

learning how to read or the light that

16:38

is coming in off the clouds on

16:40

the San Francisco Bay, or

16:43

my cellies laugh, or reading

16:45

the corona or the bible. Right? And

16:48

I was like, you know, awe emerges

16:51

everywhere. And in getting

16:53

to know some of these guys like Lewis Scott

16:55

and Moe who's about to get out, you

16:58

know, they found in those experiences

17:00

of awe and moral beauty

17:03

to bring out the goodness of others or a Tony

17:05

Morrison called allowing goodness its

17:07

own speech. They

17:10

did, you know, Chris,

17:12

they did better work than I've ever done in my life.

17:14

You know? They started podcasts They

17:17

did a newspaper, they edited it, they

17:19

interviewed all in inside

17:22

a prison, you know. And they broke

17:24

up fights They curtail drug

17:26

use, etcetera. They reform people's

17:29

characters.

17:31

I, to this day, am inspired

17:34

by their moral beauty. All

17:36

can also be present on what many

17:38

of us would define as some of

17:40

the worst days of

17:43

our lives. And and you share

17:45

very generously here being

17:47

surprised by

17:48

when you were with your brother as

17:50

he was drawing his last breath.

17:54

Yeah. You know, I

17:57

wrote this book. In

18:00

a period of grief. And it

18:02

just came pouring out of me and took a lot of

18:04

editing. But, yeah, I my

18:07

younger brother, Rolf, was one

18:09

year younger than me. And we

18:12

had this incredible,

18:14

wild, off field childhood of

18:16

being born in Mexico and

18:19

growing up in the late sixties in Laurel

18:21

Canyon with Jony Mitchell and the birds

18:24

and the doors nearby, you know, and

18:27

wandering the foothills of the KERA's

18:29

and swimming in rivers. And we did everything in

18:31

search of all together, and he got colon

18:33

cancer, which is

18:35

brutal. And just

18:38

horrifying. And

18:40

just to watch those two years was

18:43

was just a state of horror for me.

18:46

And I was so synced up with him,

18:48

Chris, that I would just feel almost feel

18:50

his pain, you know, and feel

18:52

his his delirium and

18:54

the chemo and so forth. And

18:57

then on January

18:59

twenty six, a few years ago, he

19:02

took the cocktail to to move

19:04

on to the next thing and

19:06

end his life. And I we all

19:08

went up to his home and foothills of the

19:10

KERA's. And we're all around him and

19:13

touching him and saying words

19:15

to him, you know, you're the best brother ever

19:17

and we love you. And

19:20

as he really started

19:23

a lapse into this ending of

19:25

that consciousness, I

19:28

just felt, oh, you

19:30

know, I I it was

19:32

so mysterious. And

19:34

his leaving was so

19:37

vast for me personally. Like, what

19:39

what would be meaningful after? And

19:41

then I literally started

19:43

to like, light felt different.

19:45

There felt like there were pulsating dimensions

19:48

of energy behind him. I

19:50

felt like there something pulling him into

19:52

this new space, and

19:56

it it filled me with all.

19:59

Did you have the sense decker that you were,

20:01

as you said, having been so tied

20:03

in to Rolf, just as a person throughout your

20:05

lives together? Did you have the sense

20:07

that maybe you were experiencing

20:10

a bit of what he was experiencing as

20:12

he died? That's

20:15

a profound question. You

20:17

know, when he when I

20:20

really knew I

20:23

think it was the preceding November. The

20:26

cancer returned. It hit his gut. And

20:28

when I consulted doctors, they're like, you

20:30

know, he could have

20:31

weeks. I mean, this is it.

20:36

I turned I was freaked out

20:38

and and not knowing what to do. And

20:40

one of the questions I asked was like, well, what will

20:42

his state of mind be?

20:45

When he goes because

20:47

I'm so empathically connected to him

20:49

and I read up on the literature on

20:52

near death experiences. What is

20:54

consciousness and feeling like as

20:57

you leave life. And there's a very

20:59

rich literature that I report on, you know,

21:02

of, you know, and some

21:04

commonalities of people feel release,

21:07

the self dissolves, They

21:09

feel connected to a broader human

21:12

and spiritual force of kindness.

21:15

They have a sense that other people are around

21:17

them. That that

21:20

they care about, they

21:22

they are at peace. And,

21:24

Chris, when I learned that,

21:27

I felt enormously at

21:30

peace. Right? And it's interesting

21:32

how science I needed that science to help

21:34

me. And when I watched Rolf

21:37

and his face, you know, he seemed to be smiling.

21:40

He seemed to be leaning into something

21:42

literally. Right? Instead of, you know,

21:44

leaning toward us, he was leaning away

21:46

and into thing different. And

21:49

I think I I had never really reflected

21:51

on this, but I think you're right. I think that my

21:53

sense of his state of mind

21:55

at that moment, nearing death, came

21:58

to me of, oh, there's peace here.

22:01

Right? There's something else

22:03

that's good.

22:04

If you think about how awesome it

22:07

must be to be born and

22:09

and move from you know,

22:11

one set of sensory experiences to a

22:14

vastly more intense one and

22:16

the possibility that that awe

22:18

is happening as approached

22:20

death. It it might literally be the first

22:22

and the last emotion we ever experience.

22:25

Wow. That is that is really

22:27

striking. Yeah. I,

22:30

you know, I think you're onto

22:32

something there and it relates to

22:35

this idea science

22:37

long ignored awe for

22:39

reasons we've talked about. But in

22:42

point of fact, when you just reflect

22:44

on your own life and then you think about

22:46

what is early life like and

22:48

how awe inspiring it is at the end

22:50

of life. It is this

22:52

basic state. And if you want more video

22:55

proof, There's a whole other set of

22:57

videos called babies and

22:59

tunnels. And

23:03

It profiles, parents filming their

23:05

babies like when they go into a tunnel and

23:07

then then when they first come out. And

23:10

it's total awe. As Einstein

23:12

said, and Jane

23:13

Goodall. This is one

23:16

of the most human of emotions. So

23:18

have to ask you this, Decker, because to

23:21

stand on the lip of the Grand Canyon.

23:23

To

23:23

me, at least it would seem impossible not

23:26

to feel awe.

23:27

Yeah.

23:27

But I'm also feeling a little bit of terror Is

23:30

there a relationship between ah

23:32

and fear? Yeah. And

23:34

that's one of the deep questions that,

23:37

you know, people like Edmund Burke, the great

23:39

Irish philosopher, and Emmanuel Conte,

23:42

the spiritual writings. You know, people spiritual

23:44

journaling in their feelings of love

23:47

and bliss and on, fear and terror, vis

23:49

a vis God. Yeah. They

23:52

you know, there are and we have to remember

23:55

that a lot of emotional experiences are mixed.

23:57

And so sometimes, awe and terror

24:00

are very closely interwoven.

24:03

My daughter and I were backpacking last year,

24:05

high KERA's. This once in

24:08

every thousand year storm rolled over,

24:10

and it was an electrical storm that was hitting

24:13

hills and mountains -- Mhmm. -- very close by.

24:15

And I was awestruck, wow, look at the

24:17

lightning and then terrified. Like, It's gonna

24:19

hit us. I don't know what to do. So often

24:21

they go together or are

24:24

are related or mixing, but

24:27

importantly, Chris, you know,

24:29

we have through different

24:31

means pulled apart all from

24:33

fear, terror, and horror. The best

24:36

way to illustrate it, I'm gonna ask you, Chris,

24:38

what what vocalization would

24:41

you make if you're feeling all? All.

24:44

Right. Whoa. And then

24:46

with fear, it's like -- Right. --

24:48

so much different acoustics. Those two

24:50

emotions have different physiological patterns,

24:53

different brain patterns, different effects

24:55

on the heart, etcetera. So we can really pull

24:57

them apart. And what's important about that is

25:01

as we go in search of all,

25:04

there are these pure, you know,

25:07

uplifting, opening, inspiring

25:09

experiences of all that don't have fear in them

25:11

that we can

25:12

find. Howard Bauchner: So, Ducker, you just

25:14

mentioned that these vocalizations that

25:16

we have when we experience that

25:20

are called a vocal burst.

25:22

Right? That Whoa.

25:23

Is this maybe a throwback to the

25:25

time before humans even had

25:28

language? Yeah, absolutely. And

25:30

and this is why I love the

25:33

study of vocaburs. You know, vocaburs

25:35

are brief. Sounds that

25:37

don't have words in them. And

25:41

evidence suggests that they pretty

25:43

clearly predate the spoken of one

25:46

hundred or two hundred thousand years ago. lot

25:48

of mammals have vocal bursts. There are studies

25:50

of bats, vocal bursts. Horses

25:53

vocabers, primates, cats, dogs,

25:56

you know, it's a rich language

25:58

of social connection across mammals.

26:01

And, you know, what we do is we

26:03

ask people to make sounds of

26:06

what they would to capture their feeling in different

26:08

context, like, what would you sound like if you

26:11

saw an incredible waterfall going, whoa.

26:13

You know, what would you sound like if you stubbed

26:15

your toe? What would

26:18

you sound like if you saw rotting a rotting

26:20

animal that was, you know, had maggots in

26:22

it. They're

26:24

really rich and then we take those

26:26

sounds and we play them

26:28

to people in different parts of the world, you

26:31

know, from India

26:33

to Japan to China, really different

26:35

acoustic structures to their languages. And

26:38

remote Bhutan. And what we found

26:40

is awe is the most

26:43

widely universal sound of emotion.

26:46

Right. Which is striking that, you know,

26:48

before we were speaking and

26:50

saying, you know, wow, you

26:52

too is awe inspiring or I'm awe struck

26:55

by you know that politician. We

26:57

were noting the vast and

26:59

mysterious with these sounds. And

27:01

I'll just note another thing that's really interesting

27:03

you know, that one of the great mysteries of

27:06

awe is music and how it can

27:08

make us tear up immediately. And

27:11

one of the sources of of awe

27:13

music is sacred music, sacred

27:15

chanting. And

27:27

that chanting tends to sound

27:29

a lot like the vocalizations of awe,

27:32

you know. So so what

27:35

a wonderful realm to study

27:37

this great emotion

27:38

on, which is in in our vocalizations.

27:40

Why don't we sometimes shiver or get

27:42

goose bumps in response to awe.

27:45

Yeah. That's one of my favorites, you

27:47

know, is is this really

27:49

fascinating physiological response

27:51

of what we would call the chills. And,

27:54

you know, and that led me down to all kinds of

27:56

rabbit holes, like how prominent

27:58

the chills are in religious experiences.

28:01

We shutter and we We get chills,

28:04

and kundalini and yoga is

28:06

this bodily eff effescence, if you will.

28:09

It led me to ASMR which,

28:12

you know, our younger listeners, autonomous sensory

28:15

meridian response, which is where we

28:17

watch really strange videos. Of,

28:20

like, ear procedures and

28:23

tooth cleaning and people snacking their lips

28:25

and it gives people the chills. But

28:31

there are actually two kinds of chills that

28:34

science has really started to pull apart.

28:36

The shutter is

28:38

really about terror and

28:41

loneliness and alienation. And

28:44

then the chills, the goose tingles, goosebumps,

28:46

is this rush of sensations up

28:48

your arms and back and neck and head.

28:51

There are little muscles around hair

28:53

follicles that contract. And

28:55

I tell the story, the scientific story

28:57

how we've learned that those are really the

29:00

bodily signs that a lot of mammals

29:03

show. When they connect others

29:05

to face peril together. Right?

29:07

They if they're really cold, they'll lean in

29:09

and warm each other at at signal

29:12

through the chills and the same with

29:14

humans. So, it's

29:16

really about those goosebumps and not the shutters.

29:19

Decker, the modern world is absolutely

29:23

filled with things that would have

29:25

caused our and ancestors to

29:27

fall over with awe that

29:29

we just simply take for

29:31

granted. Yeah. Does modernity

29:33

make it harder to experience awe?

29:37

Well, I think,

29:39

you know, and I hate to use this this

29:41

phrase, but I think it's the best and worst of

29:43

times, you

29:44

know, of all. If you

29:46

imagine seven

29:48

hundred years ago or

29:50

five hundred years ago and the life

29:52

expectancy he was forty five,

29:55

and lots of kids are dying young, and plagues

29:57

are ripping through, and there's torture and violence

29:59

everywhere. That was a horrifying period

30:01

of human history. And was also

30:03

very constrained in terms of

30:05

awe. You know, if you felt awe

30:08

about nature or an

30:10

alternative spiritual practice, or,

30:12

you know, something other than

30:14

the the prevailing religion, your life was

30:16

at at stake. Right? So I think it was a

30:19

tough time for all. And today,

30:22

when I look at my daughters who are twenty

30:24

three and twenty five, there's a lot of opportunity

30:26

for all. But there are all

30:28

kinds of assaults on all.

30:31

I think the new technologies and the

30:33

smallness of the cell phone make

30:36

it hard to feel awe. I think the the

30:38

fact that, you know, our Google searches

30:41

and Google maps don't let us

30:43

wander. You know, children young people

30:45

today go traveling and they don't

30:47

wander as much as we did,

30:49

as I did, you know. And then I

30:51

think that the stresses of and

30:54

economic issues of

30:56

like the school system, you know, whereas, you

30:58

know, test driven education is

31:01

in part needed, but we've lost a lot out

31:03

of the wonder and

31:05

open

31:06

inquiry and mystery that kids need.

31:09

What about the awe that might be triggered

31:12

by the use of psychedelics.

31:14

Does this count in terms of potential benefits

31:17

it might produce or is it like cheating?

31:19

It's cheating. No. No.

31:22

My friend's Michael Paul. And he's like, what? You know?

31:26

Yeah. Who wrote how to change your mind? You know,

31:30

It's it's fascinating, you

31:32

know, people have been altering

31:34

their states of consciousness with

31:37

plant medicines or spirits medical medicines

31:39

in the indigenous traditions and

31:41

through all kinds of techniques. Right?

31:45

Since we've been humans, we've fast

31:48

We hang ourselves upside down. You

31:50

know, we go on on vision

31:52

quest. We overheat our bodies.

31:54

We jump into cold water. We're

31:57

always altering our body's chemistry to

31:59

feel awe. And I,

32:02

you know, I think with psychedelic, you

32:05

know, both the indigenous plant

32:08

medicines of Ayahuasca and peyote and

32:10

the like. And then the synthesized ones

32:12

of LSD and NBMA and

32:15

so forth. I think, you

32:17

know, what the interest in

32:19

them right now speaks to our

32:21

hunger for all KERA's

32:23

a a central idea right now that,

32:25

you know, by Peter Hendrix in

32:27

our lab and others said, why

32:29

we love psychedelic some way people go to them

32:31

is for transcendent states

32:33

like bliss and love

32:36

of humanity and awe. Because

32:39

often they're in short supply in people's lives,

32:42

those experiences help

32:44

us handle trauma, which is true.

32:46

Help us feel less stressed out about daily life,

32:48

help us face things like a terminal disease

32:51

diagnosis, all of those are scientific

32:53

findings. And so

32:56

I my view to your ethical

32:58

question, Chris, is, is it cheating?

33:01

No. It's human to

33:03

to seek to alter your state of mind.

33:05

But importantly, it's

33:08

just a tiny part of the awe story

33:10

or the transcendent story. You can get the same

33:12

experience. Or something like it

33:14

with dance or singing

33:16

and acquire, meditating, or

33:19

getting out of nature, or contemplating, being

33:21

part of a social move event. So, Orlando's

33:24

Sporting event. So, I

33:26

hope in this enthusiasm

33:29

for psychedelic we don't lose sight of the fact

33:31

that there are a lot of pathways to

33:33

awe in transcending the

33:35

self. When do you tell people

33:37

who say, alright, Deck? Are you convinced me

33:39

I want more awe in my life, but I

33:41

don't

33:42

it it's not doesn't seem to just

33:44

come upon me on a regular other places?

33:47

Yeah. So, you know, one part

33:49

is the mindset, which is,

33:51

you know, don't overschedule your life,

33:53

allow yourself time to wonder and wander

33:56

and be open and and what

33:58

is mysterious to you. Another

34:00

part of recommendation, the recommendation

34:02

is to Consult the eight wonders

34:05

that I write about of moral beauty.

34:08

Who is your? Who does move you

34:10

to tears in terms of their courage or kindness?

34:12

Collective movement. Where are you finding

34:14

that? Nature? What are your

34:16

favorite parts of nature? Is it gardening? Is

34:19

it

34:19

flower? Is it skies or clouds?

34:21

You

34:22

know, music and visual design and spiritual

34:24

stuff? Where what are your sacred texts?

34:27

You know, when I was in

34:29

a tough time, right,

34:32

you know, grieving my brother's loss. I

34:34

read sacred texts just to find awe.

34:37

And then you know, so use

34:39

those as a roadmap and then cultivate specific

34:41

practices. You know, just a couple of minutes

34:43

a day, wallwalks, looking

34:46

at cloud, listening to inspiring music,

34:48

telling all stories. If

34:51

I asked you Chris to tell me you

34:53

might even volunteer when, like, what's an ah

34:55

moment from early in childhood, right?

34:58

We we learn a lot about each

35:00

other. So a lot of great ah

35:03

cultivation to do. Deckard

35:05

Keltner is Professor of Psychology at the

35:07

University of California, Berkeley, and faculty

35:10

director there of the Greater Good Science

35:12

center. His book is called awe, the new

35:14

science of everyday wonder, and how it can

35:16

transform your life.

35:18

Deckard, this has been really Well, thanks very

35:20

much for making time to talk.

35:21

Thank you for the wonderful interview. You

35:23

can find us on Facebook and Instagram

35:26

by searching for KERA Think.

35:28

Use that same search term wherever you get

35:30

your podcasts and subscribe to

35:32

ours, or find it on our website,

35:34

think dot KERA dot org.

35:37

Again, I'm Chris away. Thanks for

35:39

listening. Have a great day.