0:00

I think everybody needs to understand . Whether we recognize

0:02

or not , we're all selflessly motivated . So if

0:04

I'm starting a sales call , even if I'm quote

0:06

unquote excited about the product , I'm

0:08

not excited about the product , I'm excited about what

0:10

the product's going to do for me . You're

0:12

fucked that sales going nowhere until

0:14

you figure out how they can see the value in

0:16

the next year . So that's your sale , like every

0:19

sale has about seven to 50

0:21

little sales in them and each one

0:23

of those little sales everybody paying attention

0:25

to the podcast every one of those

0:28

little sales requires value

0:30

.

0:30

Meet Keenan . He's all about getting

0:32

the customer to say yes . As

0:35

the owner of GapSelling , he's here to increase

0:37

your sales by changing everything you know

0:39

about relationships , overcoming objections

0:41

and closing and pricing . Does any of this

0:44

sound familiar to you ? Long sales cycles

0:46

, price objections , no decisions , prospects

0:49

going dark and ghosting you and continuously

0:51

missing your quota . This podcast is

0:53

for you . Keenan has sold over 100,000

0:56

copies with GapSelling and he's here on

0:58

kickoff sessions to help you do the exact

1:01

same thing . What's up , people ? Before

1:03

we get into this video , please make sure to

1:05

subscribe , like and comment

1:07

down below so we can get bigger , better

1:10

guests for you every single week

1:12

. Let's get straight into the video right now . All

1:15

right , man , let's kick off . So

1:17

where I want to start is one

1:19

of your quotes . And no one gives a shit

1:21

about you or your product . Why is that

1:23

?

1:24

I mean , I think everybody needs to understand , whether we recognize

1:27

it or not , we're all selflessly motivated , okay

1:29

? So if I'm starting a sales call

1:32

, even if I'm quote unquote excited

1:34

about the product , I'm not excited about the product

1:36

, I'm excited about what the product's going to

1:38

do for me . It's not the product

1:41

, it's what the product's going to do for me

1:43

. So if I'm all excited

1:45

to get this new Lamborghini , I'm not excited about the Lamborghini

1:47

. I'm really not , because if I'm excited about the

1:50

Lamborghini , I would just sit in it and drive in it and

1:52

wouldn't care if anybody saw me right or I

1:54

might just sit in it right , but I'm excited

1:56

for what it gets me . So if I want to drive for its performance

1:59

, I'm excited to get it on the road

2:01

. I'm not excited about buying it , I'm excited about getting

2:03

it on the road and feeling what

2:05

it's like to go super fast or feeling what

2:07

it's like to hug those turns and feel the

2:10

G-forces and maybe , on

2:12

a closed track , work my driving skills

2:14

, like that's what excites me . Well , but for

2:16

most people , I'm excited about the feedback

2:18

it gives me and the validation

2:21

it gives me , because I'm insecure and

2:23

I want people to know I'm rich . I want people to look at me

2:25

, so I'm excited about the feedback

2:28

it gets me . Do you see what I'm saying ? So

2:30

I don't care what it is someone's

2:32

buying . They're not buying the product , they're not buying

2:34

your company . They're buying what they perceive

2:36

and their little brains is what the desired

2:39

outcome is or the objective of that purpose

2:41

. And so if you start talking about you

2:43

and your company , you're slowing the sale down

2:45

. You want to keep them anchored

2:48

in what it is they hope to get

2:50

from this and keep them focused

2:52

in their world , their outcomes

2:54

, their current shitty situation

2:56

, what they're not having when they use . Keep them focused on them

2:59

and then , by default

3:01

, they will be excited about

3:03

your product as you show it to them as

3:05

a method to leave where they are today

3:07

and get where they want to go tomorrow .

3:10

I'm curious to think talk about how

3:12

you think about psychology with the actual

3:14

buyer . So you mentioned there about the personal desires

3:17

. How much of that plays much

3:19

more of a role than maybe the professional

3:21

desires of increasing revenue

3:23

or decreasing costs or increasing efficiency

3:25

?

3:26

They're the same . They're the same . So

3:30

if I'm working for a company and I might remit

3:32

to be good in that job , would it be successful

3:34

in ? That job is to reduce lawsuits

3:37

, or it's to reduce the defects of a manufacturing

3:39

plant , or if it's to drive revenue , or

3:43

if it's to make better investments

3:45

or create better hedging , whatever it is , and

3:47

you're selling me a product that is somehow way shape

3:50

or form going to allow me to do that

3:52

easier , faster or cheaper , because

3:55

what I'm doing now isn't working , then

3:57

I'm super excited because I'm attached to that

3:59

outcome . I'm personally attached

4:01

to the outcome of better production

4:03

. I'm personally attached to the outcome of reducing

4:05

lawsuits , et cetera . So the personal

4:08

and business to me you can't separate them . I signed

4:10

up for a job and I'm attached

4:12

to the outcomes of that job . So if the outcomes

4:14

of that job are perceived as superior

4:17

, more effective or whatever , the outcomes

4:19

as measured by that role are better

4:21

than I'm looking better , they're one

4:23

to one . So to me there's

4:26

no difference . They're attached to each other .

4:28

Do you actually walk through that process

4:30

with them and get them to

4:32

kind of maybe allude to those points being like , oh , like

4:35

this is something that you want to achieve , like personally , is

4:37

that something you're trying to connect to or subconscious ?

4:40

I leave it to the subconscious . No

4:42

, because if you start trying to settle the person , that's

4:45

not scalable

4:47

. So if you have more than one buyer , you can't take that

4:50

and go over here and say , look , Johnny's gonna get

4:52

promoted , so so will you . It's not scalable

4:54

, right ? But if you

4:56

make it super clear about where

4:59

are you now and why that bothers you as

5:01

a person responsible for these things

5:03

or the person with the remit to fix these things

5:06

and where you want to go , it's so

5:08

closely tied that you don't have to call it

5:10

out . They get it .

5:12

It's happening underneath the surface . Basically , you

5:14

also have a quote saying there's no such thing

5:17

as closing . So I know a lot of young high

5:19

ticket closers and they will be very pissed off with a statement

5:22

like that . Where did you come to that conclusion

5:24

?

5:27

The concept of closing is in a traditional

5:29

sale is . I got done

5:31

with pitching my shit . There's nothing

5:33

more for me as the salesperson to do . So

5:36

now I'm trying to get them to close Like I'm

5:38

done . So now give me your money right 99%

5:42

of the time . If you're at that stage where you're done

5:44

doing whatever you think you need to do and

5:47

the buyer isn't at a place where they can make a

5:49

decision , you fucked up . You've

5:52

gotten way ahead of the buyer , way

5:54

ahead of the buyer . The buyer should get to

5:57

the place where they want to decide to close

5:59

at roughly the same time that

6:02

when you're done . It should be

6:04

crystal clear . They'd be like oh yeah

6:06

, okay , when do we get started ? Right

6:09

, if you have to ask for the close , you

6:12

fucked up . You've

6:14

completely fucked up . So the

6:16

key is if you do it properly , it's really

6:18

clear and by the time you're

6:20

done , everything's on the table and you've laid out the gap

6:23

and they completely agree with you . They

6:25

simply say , all right , where do we get started , or

6:27

no , and if they say no , you go . I'm

6:29

confused . This

6:32

is gonna solve the problem . You lay out the whole problem , what am I

6:34

missing ? And then you go from there , but

6:36

you never have to close a customer .

6:38

What I love about gap selling is the fact that

6:40

, basically , you've done all the work in

6:42

the beginning , so you've identified the numbers , the impact

6:45

, the problem , so that you can always

6:47

reference it . So for people that don't know where

6:50

you're a process with the current state , if you're getting the

6:52

numbers checked , the problems that they have

6:54

, the impact , the root cause , you

6:56

can always use it as a proxy to go back

6:58

right and to reverse engineer . Now my

7:01

question for you , off that is , when you analyze

7:03

salespeople , their process

7:05

and everything , where did they fall down on ? And

7:08

at the most , is it numbers ?

7:09

They're fully getting the information and defining

7:12

it , falling . The big one is defining it . So

7:14

they'll come back and say , oh , the problem is they're

7:16

making too many mistakes in the manufacturing process . Okay

7:20

, well , what's too many mistakes ? I

7:22

don't know . They just say a lot . But what's a lot ? Oh

7:25

, I don't know . I didn't check . Well , how many widgets do they

7:27

make in a year ? Oh , I don't know . How many

7:29

different types of widgets do they make ? About seven

7:31

or eight . So when they're making too many mistakes , is

7:33

it across all the widgets or just a particular

7:36

line of it ? Oh , good question , I don't know . Like

7:38

, they just don't think , they

7:40

don't think about the environment they're

7:42

in , they're only thinking about the sale

7:44

. Oh , the customer said they make too many widgets . That's a problem . I

7:47

can fix that problem . Right , they

7:49

don't stop and say wait , I'm talking to

7:51

a manufacturing company . So

7:53

how many products do they make ? How many ? Is it one

7:55

widget or a hundred widgets ? Do

7:57

they make their own widget and they

7:59

sell the widget , or they manufacture it for

8:01

clients and so clients come in , hire

8:04

them to make the widgets and they send the widgets to them and that client

8:06

sells it . That's very different . If it's my own widget

8:08

. That's one thing . If it's so , then

8:10

if I make too many mistakes in the widget , that watch what

8:13

I do . If it's my widget and I

8:15

sell it to the market , or my number

8:17

of widgets , and I make too many mistakes , that

8:20

affects my profit margin Right

8:22

. And if I ship those widgets , it

8:24

could affect my customers , but one

8:26

customer at a time , my brand Okay . However

8:29

, if I make the widget subcontracting

8:31

out to someone else and I fuck that up

8:33

, I lose that whole contract . See

8:37

, I make a widget , I make

8:39

too many mistakes in the widget , but the outcomes

8:41

and how that affects those two companies are entirely

8:44

different , based on their business model . You see what I've

8:46

done there and

8:48

most sales people have no clue about the business

8:50

model they're in , how they do their business

8:52

, the interconnectivity , and so they're clueless

8:54

, absolutely clueless .

8:56

Why do you think that is , though ? Is that a lack of training

8:59

or a lack of conscientiousness Lack

9:03

?

9:03

of training , hands down , lack of training , and

9:05

then I'd say , and then lack of conscientiousness

9:08

. But I would take a step back

9:10

and say , because they're trying to sell

9:12

, trying

9:14

to sell gets in the way you

9:17

should be trying to solve A

9:20

sale is nothing more than

9:22

a solution to a problem . However

9:25

, if you are not properly diagnosing the problem

9:28

by offering a solution

9:30

, you are effectively

9:32

potentially solving

9:34

the problem wrong . And

9:38

so if you don't understand why you're solving the

9:40

problem , the customer has to do that themselves

9:42

, because they will , unbeknownst

9:44

to you , take all the information you

9:46

gave them about your product and how it's made and

9:48

blah , blah , blah , and they themselves will try

9:51

to figure out will this solve

9:53

my problem ? And sometimes they say

9:55

, yeah , I think it will , and they buy it . And you're like , oh , I'm the great

9:57

salesperson , I sold it Other

9:59

times and yet they shouldn't have bought it Other

10:01

times . It was the right product , they bought it

10:03

. You feel like a great salesperson , but you

10:05

actually didn't make that . You didn't do anything

10:08

. You took an order because you don't know what their problem

10:10

is . You just do a bunch of shit . And then the worst

10:12

case scenario is they buy it . It's not

10:14

what they need it . They're like , oh

10:16

, we think this will work , and yay , we bought it , and yay

10:18

, I sold another thing . And they start to go implement it and

10:20

they're like this is fucking working . This is

10:22

what doesn't do . This doesn't do that , and I don't understand

10:24

it . Just because nobody took the

10:27

time to understand what they're trying to do , what the current

10:29

problem was , what was causing it , and you sold the wrong fucking

10:31

thing . And they're pissed .

10:32

Well , that's always a problem when people don't

10:35

know why it was right or why it was wrong . So

10:37

let's say , I sell to you and you're like , okay

10:39

, it obviously worked right . And if you

10:41

ever played poker , there's a big thing in there being like you could

10:43

play the right hand but

10:45

still lose . You can play the wrong hand and

10:47

still win , but you have to understand if you can

10:49

step back , being like okay , I was

10:51

actually trying to play the better hand and if I still

10:53

lose , then so be it . So I think , without

10:56

that knowledge and without that reflective , without

10:58

that way to look back on your work , how

11:01

the fuck do you know you're moving the right way and that's how

11:03

you're going to move sideways throughout your entire career

11:05

, right ?

11:06

100% . Yep , that's a great way of looking at it . I like

11:08

how you did that . People have no idea

11:10

why they sold it . They just know that the person bought .

11:13

Yeah , exactly , and again , that could

11:15

probably come from the company . So before I started my

11:17

own company , I was to work for big tech companies

11:19

, especially in FinTech , and I was the

11:21

buyer . You might find this quite interesting . So

11:24

I was the buyer , buying like vendor services , whether

11:26

it's like fucking some software or whatever . And

11:28

I remember because I knew what my problem was

11:30

, because I was a product owner . I would get on a call

11:32

and be like right , we have this issue , some fucking

11:35

API is like fucked up . We

11:37

need someone to come in and fix it . And that company

11:39

will be like okay , okay , let me walk you through

11:42

our demo pack and we'll go through like

11:44

a 60 slide pack . I'm like I

11:46

don't need this . I don't need and bear in

11:48

mind , these are huge financial institutions

11:50

coming out of New York and I was like I don't need

11:52

this shit . What I basically do is I need someone to

11:54

tell me that these particular areas

11:56

can be solved and so on . And that was the buyer coming into

11:59

it . So that was interesting observation

12:01

and that's kind of how I started my sales career

12:03

was like , well , I don't want to be that

12:05

fucking person when it's like

12:07

that .

12:09

Yep , Yep , no , you do not . No

12:11

, you do not . I mean , look , I like

12:13

those situations where you would call me and said oh , my API

12:15

is fucked up , blah blah . The first thing I would

12:17

say is what do you think I would say ?

12:18

my first question would be the impact

12:20

, going back to the current problem of that right .

12:22

So tell me what do you think the question would be

12:24

Like what do you think my very first question would be we're

12:27

on the phone , you tell me that my guys are all fucked up

12:29

. Blah , blah , blah . The first question out of my mouth .

12:32

What's like the ? What's the impact it's having on your business

12:34

?

12:36

No , no , I'd be like . I

12:39

would literally say what do you mean ? The API is a fucked

12:41

up . Could you explain that to me ?

12:44

And you're trying to get them to walk through the

12:47

numbers of it , the situation of it , everything , yeah

12:49

.

12:49

Yeah , I want you to explain

12:52

to me . I just want a definition . What do

12:54

you mean ? Your API

12:56

is fucked up and you're going

12:58

to start telling me now I'm not a techie so I can't play

13:00

this out much further but you're going to start telling

13:02

me that they're not connecting properly , or they're

13:04

not pulling the right information , or they don't stay connected

13:07

, or or or it's too . It's

13:09

too difficult for other people

13:11

to write to them , so they start to write

13:13

to them . It can't get it done . You might say it takes too long

13:15

to write to them . Or if we make a change to

13:18

the application , the API goes down . We're going to write

13:20

a whole new API , like it's something

13:22

, and then a million other things I don't know anything about . But

13:24

notice , the definition of API all

13:26

fucked up to a layman . I

13:28

already gave you like six different reasons why

13:31

they could be fucked up , and if I don't know those reasons

13:34

, I think I'm going to start selling you on

13:36

how I can fix your smoking crack . So

13:38

as you start walking

13:41

, you start walking me through

13:43

why they're all fucked up and you explain

13:45

it . Then I should be able

13:47

to connect that to the business problem

13:49

. So I might say something like you

13:51

might say , well , every time we change some of the

13:54

application , the API goes down . We got to rewrite the

13:56

application . So I'm like then I might say , well

13:58

, then , understanding that

14:00

, who's using the other application ? You

14:02

might say our end users . And I say , okay , so when

14:04

this goes down , you're telling me that your end users cannot

14:06

access this application until

14:09

you rewrite the API . Correct , yes , how

14:12

long does it take you to rewrite the API ? You might say it could take two to three

14:14

weeks . Each time I say , right , well , tell me more about

14:16

these end users . What are they using the application for

14:18

? And you might say banking . I'm like , wait , what

14:20

You're telling me every time

14:23

you make a change that the API goes

14:25

down , these people don't have access to

14:27

their fucking bank account . They have to go into

14:29

the bank , right ? And I'm like , yeah

14:31

, and I'm like , okay , how many of these people

14:33

change accounts every time

14:36

this happens ? And that's a fucking

14:38

great question . I just got an email the other day

14:40

. So every time it's down , we lose anywhere from three

14:42

to 500 customers . You see what I did right

14:44

there . Now you asked the question what's

14:46

the impact ? You jumped the fucking gun

14:49

and went so far down the road . That one question

14:51

and that person may not have made the connection

14:53

to them leaving Right , they

14:55

might not have known that they might have stayed in a technical

14:58

impact . Well , it takes us a really long time

15:00

and costs us a lot of money to rewrite the API

15:02

. When you ask that what's the impact question , that's

15:04

where it could have taken you when I started with . What

15:06

the fuck do you mean by it's fucked up ? Then

15:09

you tell me , like well , that happens and this happens . And I

15:11

asked that question and I got to 300

15:13

customers how long has it been happening ? What's

15:15

the average deposit ? You mean to tell me

15:17

since this started happening , you have lost over $70

15:20

million in deposits because this API

15:22

problem . Yes , they

15:24

fucking love me because I helped

15:26

them scope that piece out and now I'm

15:29

leading the sale .

15:31

How long does that process take you to

15:33

map out everything so that those

15:35

scenarios come in ? So when you're usually in that gap selling

15:38

process , so current state , future

15:40

state and identifying the gap and quantifying

15:42

the gap , how long does that generally take you ?

15:44

It depends on how well the customer knows their information

15:46

. It depends on how well the customer is willing to be open

15:49

. So we're working on a big deal right

15:51

now that we're probably going to walk away from , but

15:53

, after multiple conversations with multiple

15:56

people , they cannot

15:58

tell us what the business problem is and so therefore

16:00

, they can't tell us the impact and this is going

16:02

to be a multimillion-dollar investment

16:04

they're going to make and they are unable

16:07

to tell us the business problem

16:09

, the impact . They know the root causes

16:11

, but the business problem , the root cause , I mean

16:13

the impacts across the whole organization . So

16:16

that's what I still haven't got , and they're almost ready

16:19

to make a decision . They're

16:21

so bad at it and we pushed them so hard to get it . They're

16:23

getting irritated with us and I don't think

16:25

we're going to win it anyways , because we are just not letting

16:27

go with a dog with a bone , because

16:30

we don't understand why you would make this investment

16:33

if you can't explain what it's costing

16:35

you . If you don't change and they can't

16:37

do it Other times you can get it in

16:39

less than an hour .

16:41

It's interesting that these companies can grow so

16:43

fucking fast and so big , but they're not

16:45

having an understanding of their numbers and their data

16:47

, because otherwise you're kind of pissing in the wind

16:49

, right . I don't understand that , as

16:51

a small startup , we tried to have an

16:53

enterprise view , whereas I don't know what's

16:55

going on . To some degree , right , but

16:58

how the fuck could you grow these companies without having

17:00

that foresight ?

17:03

I got it out of some of the individual

17:05

business units , but I couldn't get it company-wide

17:07

right . And so and it was a company-wide

17:10

investment so I was like , okay , that's this

17:12

one . And even then all I got was this

17:14

is where we are now . Next year we want to be this . There

17:17

was like a half a percent growth and I'm

17:19

like that's what you want or that's what you believe you can

17:21

get . That's very different right . That's very

17:23

, very different right . I mean , a good example

17:25

is I know you're Bali , but it's like

17:28

baseball . They

17:30

have sometimes they have these years they call rebuilding

17:32

years , right . So

17:34

they basically scrap the payroll , they get rid of the

17:36

most expensive players , they retool

17:38

and they want to win

17:41

the World Series . But they realize

17:43

that this year they're only

17:45

they just got to get past 500 , right . So

17:48

you don't build a plan or bring in consultants

17:50

to bring in new people to get to 500 that year . You're

17:53

bringing these people in so in three to five years

17:55

you can get to the World Series

17:57

. Do you see what I'm saying ? So this company told

17:59

us what they want to get to next year , but I'm like you're not hiring

18:02

us and investing $3 million

18:04

to get here next year . That's

18:07

not a sales transformation effort . You're

18:09

hiring us because somebody believes you're

18:11

leaving a lot

18:14

more on the table , but no one can tell

18:16

us that . So why the fuck are you doing this Like

18:18

? What are you expecting to get ? And

18:20

every time this we want our sales people to be

18:23

better . We want to have the best sales organization

18:25

in the world . We want our sales

18:27

people to stay longer and not a trade

18:30

. Well , what's your attrition rate ? Well

18:32

, not really sure .

18:36

A lot of them are assumptions , right , and they could come from like

18:38

boring senior management . They're just like , oh yeah , like

18:40

we just want more , right , and

18:44

that's the whole problem . So similar in us when we

18:46

come up to a company , so we do like B2B

18:49

podcast . So let's say , let's take an example of your podcast

18:51

. We basically just like run it , we run the

18:53

shit out of it and then we connect the business in the back

18:55

end . But ideally , when we're looking

18:57

at people's numbers , they don't know where the numbers

18:59

are and then they will say we want more

19:01

. But they don't know what the difference is of what they

19:03

want percentage or numeric , right

19:05

? And if they say a numeric , it's fine , we can calculate

19:08

a percentage . But it's just an interesting observation

19:10

, right , the fact that most people don't know

19:12

what they want and then

19:14

when you try to walk through that process , you

19:16

could be met with resistance as a result

19:18

, because they haven't even thought about themselves .

19:22

And they don't know why they want it , and they don't know why where they are

19:24

is not good . What's

19:27

wrong with what you got now ? Just keep doing what you're doing

19:29

.

19:30

I want to ask you about how you reactivate

19:32

, like , dead leads . So this would be quite

19:35

interesting . So you know , as I mentioned , what

19:37

our business is , last year we had a bunch of

19:39

calls that like , let's say , our deals

19:41

that maybe fell true or went cold

19:43

, and then this year I did a check-in

19:45

and I did an observation of where they

19:47

were and where they are now and I would say 95%

19:50

of them haven't changed , 95%

19:53

they haven't improved , they haven't got better , it

19:55

doesn't look better . And then

19:57

resurfacing that to people is kind of painful

19:59

, right . So I want to kind of get your process

20:01

in terms of like how you'd reactivate dead leads .

20:04

The same way you did . So you already

20:07

know the answer . Like the same way , if

20:09

you did a proper discovery , I'd call them

20:11

back and say hey , john , last time we met last year

20:13

you said that you would do your doing

20:15

. I'm going to go on a limb here . But you were doing one

20:18

podcast a week and you had been doing that for two years

20:20

and you had seen a 20% growth

20:22

year over year for the first year . But you had flattened out to about

20:24

5% . You said you were making less

20:27

than six figures in advertising . You

20:29

said it was harder and harder to get the advertising dollars in

20:31

because you hired an assistant . You

20:33

weren't as profitable in that . You wanted

20:36

to get to 300

20:38

, 400,000 viewers or downloads

20:40

, whatever . You wanted to get to almost $200,000

20:43

in podcast

20:45

revenue and we didn't work

20:47

together . So I'm checking to see have you hit those goals

20:50

? How are you coming on that journey ? And

20:52

I leave with have you hit it ? And hopefully they get

20:54

back with me . If they did get back with me and

20:56

they said no , then I would say all

20:59

right , are you comfortable staying here or

21:01

have you come to the conclusion that you need

21:03

to do something different ?

21:05

That's what I'm missing . It's

21:08

those small triggers I think that people

21:10

struggle with , including me is like okay , if

21:12

you understand it

21:15

, how do you bridge the gap to get people to reengage

21:17

? All right , people , we're just gonna take

21:19

one short break for a little update

21:21

about podcast university . So if you enjoy

21:23

podcasts like this and you want to start your own

21:25

podcast , head down to the links down below the podcast

21:27

university . This is a learning platform that I've built

21:29

to help people like you build

21:31

, launch and scale your own podcast . I

21:34

wasted many years doing this , making

21:36

it all up as a lot as I go , so I put everything

21:38

together in a very seamless and

21:40

easy to follow course for you guys

21:42

to follow and just learn exactly

21:44

how to do it . So if you want to bypass a lot of the mess

21:47

with your podcast , check out the links down below the

21:49

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21:51

how to launch and scale your own podcast

21:53

.

21:54

Well it all comes down to are you happy

21:56

with where you are ? Like that's the first

21:58

step in gap sign , whether it's the first time you're

22:01

trying to sell them or the second

22:03

time or the third time . The question simply

22:05

becomes are you happy where you are

22:07

? And if not , why ? And

22:10

then if so , I mean if not , then why ? And what

22:12

do you want instead ? How big is that gap

22:14

? And is what I'm asking you to buy and

22:16

what is required of you to

22:19

do , is that worth right

22:22

? The outcome is that worth the gap ? Is

22:24

the gap big enough to warrant that

22:27

? And if it's not , they won't buy it . If it is , they will

22:29

.

22:30

The willingness to change right , Making the decision

22:33

to be able to change . That's super

22:35

interesting , man . I want to ask you about

22:37

relationships . So why do your relationships not

22:39

matter ?

22:40

I do that to poke people in the face and

22:43

irritate them , because a lot of people

22:45

they build relationships and they think relationships

22:47

are everything . And look , I'm not going to bullshit . Relationships

22:50

provide you access , right . So likeability

22:53

more importantly , but relationships provide

22:55

access . But the truth of the matter is relationships

22:58

don't make the sale

23:00

, they just don't . And I'm using relationships

23:02

primarily in the concept of likeability

23:05

. Relationships built on

23:07

credibility are extremely valuable

23:09

and they drive the sales . Relationships

23:12

and likeability do not drive the sale . Relationships

23:14

and credibility do drive the sale . And the way

23:16

you build credibility is you show them value

23:18

, value based on their definition

23:21

, not yours or ours , right . So

23:23

back to that . If you identify the gap

23:26

, you have shown them the

23:28

value of change . Here

23:30

you are today . So

23:32

I don't know where I came up with this . I

23:35

don't know why I thought about this , but I did this the other day in a training

23:37

. I think that I wasn't

23:39

in the room . I'm not trying to judge these doctors

23:41

, but I feel that

23:44

the doctors who had

23:46

Steve

23:51

Jobs they're his oncologist

23:53

when he was found to have pancreatic

23:57

cancer did not do a good

24:00

enough job of showing him the size of the

24:02

gap , right

24:04

? So , in other words , if you don't know

24:06

the story . They found it by accident , like he had

24:08

gallstones or something and they found

24:10

it by accident and

24:15

they wanted to do a Whipple surgery . And they wanted to do surgery

24:17

and you know , jobs

24:20

being Jobs , he didn't

24:22

want to go through it . He thought there was some homeopathic

24:24

ways to beat it and some alternative medicine

24:26

ways to beat it . So he took

24:29

nine months doing

24:31

alternative shit and

24:33

then it's spreading up bigger and then he went back to the

24:35

regular doctors and they did the Whipple surgery and all

24:37

that and unfortunately they didn't get it all and

24:40

so he died five years later . My

24:43

point in that story is I believe if

24:45

they were good gap sellers , they

24:47

should have explained it a lot better . Like

24:50

here's your cost of

24:53

change , your ego and

24:57

your belief in these medicines

24:59

right Against

25:02

almost guaranteeing saving your life . Every

25:05

day you go longer that you're wrong

25:07

, you increase the probability that you die from

25:09

this disease , right

25:12

? And then say listen

25:14

, do you want to live ? Yes

25:18

, so when you tell me you're going to wait nine months , let us

25:20

tell you , based on what we're seeing because he's a fucking

25:22

scientist you can expect this

25:24

to grow this much Right

25:26

now . Could you be successful ? Could

25:29

it work ? Yeah , yes , but

25:31

what we know is when it this small and we

25:33

take it out , the problem is getting it all

25:35

is larger than the probability

25:37

of it being bigger and spreading . We

25:40

don't know how it's going to spread . We

25:42

think so . To us

25:45

, this is a the cost

25:47

. What's his name , steve

25:50

? The cost is phenomenal

25:52

. I get you believe this and I get you don't like this , but

25:55

the cost of you being wrong is

25:57

far , fucking greater than the cost of

25:59

you being right .

26:02

It's dead yeah . It's

26:04

life or death right , and that's

26:06

that's the biggest fucking gap you can have , right , yeah

26:09

, yeah . That

26:12

goes back to the first chapter of your book , which is like the pill

26:14

right , when it's like a pill that you use

26:16

to like alleviate this small pain is like oh

26:18

, I don't give a shit about it , I get it for $1 and CVS

26:21

, but then if it's a pill that saves your life

26:23

, you're willing . This paid at fucking

26:25

30 , 40 K . And man , that actually happened

26:27

with the insulin , was it ? I think I'm going to get this kind of wrong

26:30

, but there was that hotend someone had

26:32

of like insulin and it was like 18 fucking

26:34

thousand , and guys like I don't give a fuck Like

26:36

, if you need it , what you do , you're going

26:38

to pay it and people paid for

26:40

it . Obviously , whatever you could say is unethical

26:42

, but it was fucking . He was

26:44

able to articulate the difference . Question

26:46

for you off . That is like so you're like a

26:49

master at this and it's really good to see , like , how

26:51

your brain works with us . Do

26:53

you convey the message of gap selling

26:55

through your writing , so let's say , your sales letters

26:58

, or your websites and your content

27:00

, because it sounds like you can

27:03

do this and let them

27:05

, through a copywriting perspective . Uncover

27:07

these aspects while

27:09

they read .

27:10

Yep , I mean , look , if you can get the people to read

27:13

it . You want to do that right Now . Look , if

27:16

I do a revision , I'm going to change the emails in

27:18

it . I don't like them in hindsight and how much

27:20

has changed and stuff I don't like them . But still

27:23

, I just think they need to be creative . Right

27:26

, they need to be creative . They

27:28

need to be very , very personal

27:30

and , just as

27:32

seamlessly as possible

27:35

, get the buyer to

27:38

be like yeah , that

27:40

one , that right there , I can't stand

27:42

that , or that's been creeping in , or I've been feeling

27:44

that . Or , yeah , what do you stand

27:46

on my plant ? Yes , like

27:49

, yeah , you get me . That's what you want them to

27:51

feel when they're either yes , you get me , I

27:53

hate that , or this is happening

27:55

and I don't want it to keep happening

27:57

. That's what you want them to feel .

28:01

One thing I thought was amazing was the fact that

28:03

you mentioned is eight to 12 touch points

28:05

on average to get someone a response

28:07

.

28:08

I think there's a lot more than that now , but yeah .

28:12

How ? What type of reaction

28:14

do you think you get from people as a result in that

28:16

process ? Because some people think , oh , if

28:18

I contact someone 12 times , they're going to fucking freak

28:21

out at me if they don't want to buy .

28:22

Let them fucking freak out . I don't give a fuck

28:24

. Let them freak out , I'd

28:27

rather . I'd rather them freak out . I'd rather

28:29

have a hundred freak out and get two than

28:32

lose all hundred and two . Hmm .

28:34

That's interesting Because like and also

28:37

I think it's some of a go back , and what I was

28:39

saying was like , if you do the job right

28:41

, then it should be . It

28:44

should be clear you're pulling out a potential problem

28:46

right , you're able to articulate that problem for

28:48

them . And with a lot of companies that maybe you work

28:50

with , I say the data is quite sensitive and

28:52

private , whereas for me a lot of stuff is public

28:54

. I can visibly see when someone is

28:56

doing well or doing bad , because you can just see it with

28:58

their content . So I think that's quite interesting

29:01

is the fact that if you're able to find out and

29:03

pick holes in a problem , they shouldn't give a fuck

29:05

once you're able to actually articulate it .

29:08

And even if I know they're having the problem , I

29:10

personally , personally

29:13

, unless it's super clear and I have specific

29:15

numbers and I can , and I can point

29:17

to the source , right , I

29:20

don't like telling people that what problems they have , no

29:22

one likes that . Right Now

29:24

, if I can point to the source , I'm like hey

29:26

, I just saw in your report , okay , I

29:28

would have done this for Wells Fargo . I would have said , hey

29:31

, I just saw what happened with your thing . I saw

29:33

you doing this . I saw your commission structure . I

29:35

saw it created this Wabba Blah , understanding

29:38

that I love to talk about how we built

29:40

the way to keep those conversion rates without

29:42

doing this Right , so

29:45

so now I've got you there . But if

29:47

I , if I have heard it , third party or I think it

29:49

, I don't tell people . People never like being

29:51

told they have a problem . But what I do do is

29:54

I'm never going to call up a person with an eating disorder . I know

29:56

you have an eating disorder . What I'm going to do is

29:58

say hey , I

30:00

know that people in your position , right , it's

30:03

tough because I'd like to be very personal , but I have to make this up on

30:05

the fly . Hey , I , I , I , knowing

30:07

you XYZ

30:10

, right , knowing you have

30:13

struggled with weight before because

30:16

you attended XYZ right , let's

30:18

have a list of people attended something I

30:20

know for fact that

30:22

staying on the diet is extremely difficult . I

30:24

know the frustration of

30:27

trying to maintain that

30:29

consistency is difficult . Having

30:32

that , we have come up with a way that

30:35

makes it easier to stay on leveraging

30:38

psychology , or makes it easier to stay on leveraging

30:40

a friend network or whatever . A little hint we love

30:42

50 minutes . If if you're struggling with with

30:44

this , if this is something you're having a hard

30:46

time with , I'd love to

30:48

talk to you about how we can address it . And

30:51

I just leave it there . Right , I

30:53

just leave it there . I want them . I don't want them to buy into

30:55

me , I want them to buy into the problem .

30:59

That's interesting , man , because basically it's like an indirect

31:01

way of doing it versus like shoving it

31:03

down someone's fucking throat right , because people don't

31:05

want to hear . People don't want to hear that

31:08

. But at the same time you're kind of like . I

31:10

remember my my partner's

31:12

partner's dad is

31:14

like he's like kind of old school sales , like

31:17

medical sales dude , like nineties whatever , and

31:20

we have like these conversations always and he was

31:22

saying to me that his role always

31:24

was the trusted advisor I love that

31:26

term is that he would . He would

31:28

just basically kind of walked him through and be like he

31:31

put it really well is that if they would say , oh , should we

31:33

put $5 million into this fucking

31:35

medical sales device , he would just say , like you

31:37

know , if I was in your position , if I had the budget

31:39

you had , I wouldn't do it that way , I would

31:41

do it this way and just be able to kind of walk

31:44

them through , because it doesn't make them feel like a Thomas

31:46

, but at the same time it's winning people

31:48

through your way of thinking and many have to persuade

31:50

them to an ultimately better decision

31:52

.

31:54

So watch this . So what he did I

31:56

get , okay , but I'm going to

31:58

see how quick of a study you are . If

32:00

I'm medical sales and a doctor

32:02

says to me , hey , I get this $5 million , should

32:05

I put it here ? Should I put it here ? You know , what do you think

32:07

? What do you think ? My

32:09

very first , very first thing I'm going to say is why

32:12

do you want to do it in the first place ? Fuck

32:16

getting them all wrong .

32:16

You've done this twice .

32:18

You've done this twice . You said what is the impact and

32:20

why would you ? You put both times , you put it

32:22

back on the bike .

32:24

Okay , okay . So tell me more about the problem . Tell

32:26

me more about the problem you're facing .

32:28

Close , close , yeah . What

32:31

I would say instead is very first words

32:33

out of my mouth I don't know , I

32:37

don't know . Tell me more

32:39

about what's going on . Or , in that case , I

32:41

want to spend $5 million . I don't know . Tell

32:43

me what you're trying to accomplish . See

32:48

what I did there . Should I spend $5 million here

32:50

? $5 million here ? I don't know . Tell

32:52

me what are you trying to accomplish .

32:56

So basically that in the scenario you're pretty much looking

32:58

at the goal and the outcome and

33:01

then they'll walk back to the problem and the situation

33:03

.

33:03

Yes , I'll walk you all the way back . What

33:06

we want to do is we want to . I

33:08

don't even know where to go with this , but $5 million

33:10

of investment in XYZV joke , All right . So

33:14

we want to be able to drive more patients

33:16

in our cardiac division , Okay . So

33:19

how many pages are you getting your cardiac division now

33:22

? 50,000 . Why do you want more ? What's

33:24

going on with the cardiac division , Right

33:27

? Well , what we're learning is cardiac

33:29

division is the most profitable part of the

33:31

entire medical industry . Oh

33:33

shit . So in comparison to other

33:35

hospitals or whatever , 50,000 pages

33:37

at small . Oh , that's tiny . Most of 2 million . Oh

33:40

, so now , because you don't have a cardiac

33:42

division , what is your profit margin

33:44

now ? And what's it been trending ? I'm making shit

33:47

up Less than 20% and it's trending . It's been flat

33:49

for however long . What is most hospital ? I know this

33:51

is off , so any hospital people leave me alone . What

33:53

are most hospitals profit margins ? Well , if they have

33:55

a cardiac unit , they usually

33:58

drive in UF from 5% to 7%

34:00

higher operating margins than

34:03

those who don't . Oh

34:05

, so this is about getting the hospital more

34:07

profitable . Yes , See

34:10

what I did there .

34:11

Yeah , yeah , yeah . That's

34:14

so interesting because they don't even know where they currently sit

34:17

right . They just walk in and show that process to begin

34:19

with and you would remember you were in time

34:21

.

34:22

Even if they do , I'm still not going to . And

34:24

they nailed it and like , yeah , I would do this , you're

34:26

right , you should do it , but I don't

34:29

know it . So I'm going to give nobody

34:31

advice . Even in my personal life , I give nobody advice

34:33

until I start with . Always

34:36

, I don't know . Tell me what's going on . Should

34:39

I break up with my boyfriend ? I don't know . Tell me what's going

34:41

on . Should I invest this money over here ? I don't

34:43

fucking know why you're looking to invest . Should I move

34:45

to a smaller apartment ? I don't fucking know why

34:47

. Do you want to move to a smaller apartment ?

34:50

It always starts with I don't know , my

34:53

question from that is like how has sales

34:55

like helped you in other aspects of life like

34:57

that ?

34:59

I think it's the other way around . How has life helped

35:01

me with sales ? I've just always been

35:03

there to help people . I'm a problem solver and

35:05

I realize that I can't solve a problem if I don't

35:07

understand the problem Right

35:10

. So so I have a tendency not

35:12

always because no one's perfect or no one

35:14

does something 100% but I have a tendency

35:16

, before I act , to

35:19

try to understand the problem Okay

35:21

. So , whether it's an emergency

35:23

situation or whether it's in a

35:26

business

35:29

situation , now my execution always needs

35:31

help , and the longer it takes , the worse

35:33

my execution gets . I'm definitely a spurt worker and

35:35

I like things to go fast . So longer

35:37

bigger projects I'm not as good . I need people around

35:40

me to help with those . But the initial

35:42

problem and figuring out what to do initially

35:44

, I'm very good at . I'm very good at

35:46

assessing problems and I'm very good at stopping

35:48

and looking . This is nothing to do with sales

35:51

, but it's the idea of the

35:53

idea of a problem Right . So

35:56

when I had my first kid , I don't know how

35:58

it happened or what I was doing , but I just happened

36:00

to be reading about childhood

36:03

choking . Now I didn't go looking for it . I'm not really

36:05

worse in parent , but I just saw an interesting

36:07

article somewhere on choking kids

36:09

and what to do , right ? So you can't

36:11

do the Heimlich because they're too little and you can break their ribs . You got

36:13

to hang them upside down and all kinds of shit , right ? But

36:17

I also learned that you don't do any of

36:19

that if they're making a sound , because

36:22

even if it's not a lot , that means air is

36:24

getting through . So

36:26

if it's a full blockage now

36:29

, you got to do that because air is not getting through . But if air

36:31

is getting through , then you can pat them on

36:33

the back or give them a minute and it'll usually

36:35

dislodge itself because that air is coming in and out . You

36:37

know what I'm saying , right ? So I'm going

36:39

to tell you a story . My wife at the time

36:41

, my ex-wife now , and I were at a restaurant

36:44

and our oldest

36:46

at the time , our only kid , started choking

36:48

and my ex started

36:51

freaking out . Oh my God , oh my

36:53

God . And I sat

36:55

and I was trying to hear

36:58

if any air was . It was

37:00

amazing . I was like , oh shit , I know what's going

37:02

on here , right ? So I started

37:04

to try to hear if any air

37:06

was coming out . But my ex was screaming

37:08

at me and I said shut the fuck

37:10

up and she's locked her

37:12

shit , but I couldn't hear the baby

37:15

. You know what I'm saying . Because

37:18

I couldn't hear , I

37:20

was uncomfortable acting because

37:23

I couldn't diagnose the problem

37:25

. See

37:27

what I did there ? Right , had

37:30

it been a full blockage , I was going to yank the baby out

37:32

of that seat and stop pounding and

37:34

tell someone to call 911 and all that . But

37:37

if she could get the air through and I heard enough

37:39

and she's coughing and stuff I

37:42

was going to pat her back right , maybe

37:44

push a little on her stomach and give it time to dislodge

37:46

and it still didn't dislodge , then we would call

37:48

911 , make sure she's getting air

37:50

, make sure she's not turning purple she did start

37:52

turning . Then I'd stop pounding . You know what I'm saying . It's a different

37:55

solution . You see

37:57

what I'm going with this whole thing . So this is just how

37:59

my brain works . It actually went from this to

38:01

sales , not sales to this . How

38:03

do you solve a problem ? How good are you at diagnosing

38:05

what the fuck is going on before you

38:08

try to fix it ?

38:10

And that's before jumping to any conclusion . Right , that's

38:13

the perfect example because it's

38:15

been able . Most people will just jump so super

38:17

fast even when ex-wife didn't

38:20

in that example just to try to

38:22

get any sort of solution , versus like

38:24

it's getting the right solution for the actual

38:26

problem that you have . That's the

38:28

biggest thing , right ? Because I think generally

38:31

in life people can try to put any sort of solution

38:33

that's like better than what they have . But

38:35

if you're selling something to someone , that's completely

38:37

different , right , like , for instance , like we're building out

38:39

different systems because I can fail

38:42

forward , I can iterate on it and get it better , but

38:44

I can't necessarily just like fucking sell something

38:46

to someone as a result of that . Does that

38:49

make sense ? It's like there's a different mentality

38:51

that has to be there . But it's basically understanding

38:53

that . And what I want to ask you from there is about

38:56

your four favorite words . So

38:58

I'm confused . You said what

39:00

type of reaction do you generally get from that , from

39:02

people ?

39:03

Generally speaking , if it's with an existing client

39:05

and they said all of that , it's

39:07

usually pretty good . The only time I got a

39:09

real negative reaction is when I told someone about the

39:11

process in a sales

39:14

call and she freezes oh that's not our culture , we would

39:16

never do that . And she goes we're not

39:18

a good fit , and then she hung up . That's the only

39:20

time I got a negative reaction . But from an actual

39:22

client , no , never had a

39:24

bad reaction .

39:25

That's interesting . So when they're still like

39:27

a prospect and you're kind of walking them through

39:30

, what is it they don't want to kind of

39:32

like align to those values as

39:34

much , or how does that kind of happen in their

39:36

brain for them to have a negative reaction ?

39:39

Oh , I mean as a prospect . I think she thought this

39:41

woman was enablement probably never sold a day

39:43

in her life . I think she just

39:45

felt it was too intrusive .

39:46

Yeah , Okay . So

39:49

it's like you're using like data against them to some degree . I know

39:51

you're not , but that's kind of like how she felt .

39:53

Yeah , yeah . And I said , well , fine , use

39:55

the word I'm concerned , I don't give a fuck . But

39:58

she just didn't get the concept . All she zeroed in

40:00

on was whoa , that's

40:02

too aggressive , we don't sell

40:04

like that here . And I was like did you

40:06

not hear everything that led up to that

40:08

? The idea with the I'm confused

40:11

is basically to help the customer

40:13

understand the decision

40:15

they're making . I do with my own kids , like

40:18

you know . My , let's say , my kid wants to go

40:20

to Stanford and she's got a four , four , right

40:22

, and she went out with her

40:24

friends . Or she's asking me dad

40:27

, should I go with my ? I'm going to go out with my friends tonight ? And

40:29

I got it and I don't get that big final

40:31

tomorrow . And she's like , yeah , I'm like , why aren't you studying

40:33

with I ? You know I'll be okay . I'm like , wait a minute

40:35

. You told me this , this , you I'm

40:37

confused . You told me that you want

40:39

to go to Stanford . You got a four , four . You told me that

40:42

this test is 50% of your grades

40:44

. If you fail this test , then that

40:46

four , four could fall as low to as low as a four

40:48

, which could take you out of the range of Stanford

40:50

. Why is it so important to you go out with your

40:52

friends tonight when that could put Stanford at risk

40:54

. Notice , as a parent . I didn't tell her she couldn't

40:57

. You're going to Stanford , take the test . I

40:59

flipped it onto her and said you

41:01

explain to me based

41:04

on what you said you want . What you said is going

41:06

notice . I said nothing . You said it's 50%

41:08

of the grade . You said it could drop you to a four

41:11

. You said it could take you out of Stanford . This

41:13

guideline said it could take you out . You

41:15

said Stanford is the school you want to go to . I'm

41:20

just painting the picture .

41:22

Yeah , there it is . Tell me , man

41:25

, that's so , that's so like impactful

41:27

, because , again , it's not saying that you did something

41:29

, it's just walking them through that process , right , being like

41:31

you said it to me , we walked through this , that's

41:33

what you wanted and they were . We're trying to get to

41:35

that crunch type and it's always at the end , right

41:38

, have you noticed that it's always ? It's always

41:40

at the end that there's always that conflict . So

41:42

having those numbers and plays keeps people

41:44

honest , basically more so than anything else . All

41:47

right , guys , one short little update for Vox

41:49

. I want to give a short little overview about

41:51

my own company , my media company called

41:53

Vox . So if you are a company or

41:55

you are an enterprise looking to grow

41:57

your brand and looking to grow your podcast

41:59

, feel free to reach out to work with us

42:01

at Vox . What we do is a fully fledged

42:04

end-to-end management of our podcast . We

42:06

take care of the strategy , the consulting , we

42:08

take care of the growth , the management , we

42:10

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42:12

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42:14

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42:17

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42:19

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42:21

all that good stuff . Check out the links down below to

42:23

Vox . You can follow through to schedule a call with

42:25

our team , or else you can fill out the application form

42:27

to see if you qualify to work with us . Thank

42:29

you , it keeps them accountable .

42:31

You're just asking people to be . Now look if people

42:34

can change . Look , I may not like it , but that's

42:36

fucking . I don't want to go stamp anymore . It's too much work , are

42:38

you sure ? Yes , I'm going

42:40

to get into USC with a 4-0 . All right , fine , fuck it . Go

42:42

all with your friends , but don't you dare come back

42:44

to me and be bitching Two weeks later oh fuck

42:46

, I wish I had done that . I want to go stamp it , don't

42:48

. You've lost that right . You've

42:51

lost that right I

42:53

put in front of you . You consciously

42:56

made that decision in the moment . You've

42:58

lost the right two weeks later to say , oh fuck , I made

43:00

a mistake . No , no , no , because it's not a mistake . It

43:03

was clear as day , it was a conscious decision

43:05

.

43:07

That's very interesting to hold people accountable

43:09

, because if you were speaking to a client and they

43:11

were they had feedback

43:14

that they wanted to do something . You showed them the

43:16

path . They didn't do it , and

43:18

this is the way for them to be accountable , right , and

43:21

I've actually seen that in our business quite a lot , because if

43:23

there is a lot of touch points like it's

43:25

a lot going on , it's like in every business , so

43:28

people need to hit their own milestones

43:30

. For us to hit our milestones , does that make sense

43:32

? It's a domino

43:34

effect . We need to basically all be bought

43:36

into that process . So when one link

43:38

breaks in the chain whether it's a fucking kid

43:41

going to school , whether it's a company , whether it's a sales

43:44

company , it's all the same right , you

43:47

just insert your own vehicle . Basically , what

43:52

I really appreciate about your book as well

43:54

is the fact that you wrote

43:56

in the way of getting a series of yeses . So

43:58

sales is getting a constant stream of yeses

44:00

, and I think that's super helpful

44:03

because for a lot of people they just focus on the outcome

44:05

. Or even when you're speaking to people that say , oh

44:08

, I've sold this much or I've made this much , or I've

44:10

this much in pipeline , but really

44:12

the real winning comes in

44:14

opening the fucking email and then watching

44:16

the lead magnet and then responding to the lead magnet

44:18

. That's kind of the way of kind of changing the philosophy

44:21

now . So how do you think about that in terms

44:23

of getting this series of yeses to build confidence

44:25

in yourself as a salesperson ?

44:28

The next yes isn't designed to create confidence

44:31

in salesperson . The next yes is to make sure

44:34

you understand where

44:36

you are in the sales process , because

44:39

no one says you

44:41

want to buy yes , well , almost

44:43

no one . So the

44:46

yes is what is your sale in the

44:48

sale ? So the sale

44:50

and the sale in the very beginning is yes , I'll meet

44:52

you . So your goal is to hopefully get them

44:54

to buy your software , whatever it is right . That's

44:56

the end close . But in order to get them to buy your software

44:59

, the first thing you got to do is get them to say yes to me . So

45:03

how do you create enough value for them to

45:05

meet ? Once they meet

45:07

, then the next thing you have to do is

45:09

say what's my next yes ? Is it to bring in new people

45:11

? Is it to do a demo ? Is it to get them to

45:13

get to sign an NDA ? What is

45:15

the next yes , because

45:17

nothing else is happening to you . Get the next yes

45:19

. So if they don't perceive enough value

45:22

for the next yes , that's where a deal stalls . Or

45:24

if you don't know what the next yes is , that's

45:27

where the deal stalls . So your job

45:29

is to figure out . Okay , my next yes now is to get them to sign

45:31

the NDA . So you're like all right , tom

45:33

, I'd like us to sign

45:35

an NDA which will allow you to give us all this information

45:37

and if you can give us this information

45:40

, this would allow us to

45:42

A , b

45:44

and C and that would allow you to

45:46

see this or do this or check this . Do

45:49

you think that makes sense ? Yeah , I would like

45:51

to see that out . See , I will

45:53

get the NDA signed the cost

45:55

if you give me or to get

45:57

me this . You see , I mean that's a transaction

46:00

. So once you have that next yes

46:02

, and I give you that , then you

46:04

say , okay , now that he's got that , what's the next yes ? Is

46:06

it to get him to agree or could solve his problems ? Is it

46:08

to get him to bring the CEO in ? Is it get

46:10

him to do like I don't know what the fucking next is ? I'm making this shit

46:12

up as I go . But once that's done , okay

46:14

, what's the next yes ? You're trying to

46:16

show him enough value

46:18

to do that , and

46:21

every one of those should get you closer to

46:23

the close . So the final yes is

46:25

I'm buying .

46:27

Hmm , that NDA part is super

46:29

interesting as in . You could open

46:31

up so much more doors with that . I know , obviously

46:34

in a B2B relationship that might be more regular

46:37

, but I guess in smaller companies they

46:40

might not have that in place a lot of times , so then people will

46:42

not give them the information they need Like

46:44

that . This is the best way to bridge that gap , to get

46:46

more information , to be able to help them

46:48

even more .

46:49

I mean , if that's the buying cycle . I just

46:51

made all of that up Like I'm just trying to think

46:54

of , yeah , I'm just trying to think of common steps

46:56

that I could use to illustrate what a next

46:58

yes is . But if you don't need an NDA

47:00

, don't make that an unnecessary yes . The

47:03

next yes could be I agree to you coming out

47:05

to my plan . Right , a

47:07

lot of people don't have time . I don't have time to fucking have someone come

47:09

walk through my plan . So I've got to convince

47:11

you to agree to give me

47:13

a plant tour , All right . And

47:15

then , if that's my next yes , all

47:18

I should be focusing on in my sale right now is

47:20

how do I show this guy or girl that

47:22

it's worth three hours of their time

47:25

for a plant tour ? Just

47:27

see what I'm saying . Like that's a sale . Let's

47:29

literally a sale . Will you let me come

47:31

out ? Let me show you why it's valuable

47:33

to you . If you let me come out , I'll do this , this , this

47:35

, and I'll be able to provide this , and by providing this

47:37

, you'll get ABC and D . Can't

47:39

you see how that'll be able to fit you ? Hey , that's a good point , I'll

47:41

go with that . Let's go . No , I don't see the value

47:43

in that ? I don't need it . I don't need it

47:45

Like that sales going nowhere until

47:47

you figure out how they can see the value in

47:49

the next . Yes , so that's your sale . Like

47:52

it's just . Every sale has about seven

47:54

to 50 little sales in them

47:56

and each one of those little sales everybody

47:59

paying attention to the podcast every

48:01

one of those little sales requires

48:03

value . It

48:06

requires value . So you demonstrating

48:09

or highlighting the value of

48:11

that little sale , the value of doing the NDA , the

48:13

value of the tour , the value of the pilot

48:15

, the value of an introduction to CEO , the

48:17

value of sending

48:19

a product demo , like I don't fucking know

48:21

. The value of the next meeting , like

48:23

the value of introducing you to the team . You

48:26

need to show the value of

48:28

getting them to do

48:30

something else .

48:33

Man , I love that . It's basically a way

48:35

for people to just not get stalled , because they're

48:37

always focused on them . Again , it

48:39

just seems so logical . I'm gonna have to listen

48:41

back to this like about 15 different times , I think , just

48:45

to see those steps , because that's

48:47

where things get stuck in the pipeline . They're just getting stuck

48:49

continuously . Before we finish

48:51

up , I wanna ask you about building a sales team . Now , I know

48:53

this is exactly . This could be a podcast in itself , but

48:56

what are some of your kind of first principles

48:58

for building out a sales

49:00

team , especially a gap selling team ?

49:04

I want smart people , super , super

49:06

smart people with strong

49:09

business acumen or critical

49:11

thinking skills , tons of curiosity

49:13

, tons of personal development , what

49:15

I call deliberate learning , people who find

49:18

their weaknesses and go out and

49:20

deliberately try to fill those holes . They

49:25

gotta be super coachable . Those

49:28

are the ones that are most important to me Coachable

49:30

critical thinking skills , business acumen

49:32

. I

49:35

know I just forgot a couple , but yeah .

49:38

And in terms of the processes , is

49:41

it on the sales leader to

49:43

build out that kind of framework in the back end ? Just

49:45

for context , we're currently building a sales team

49:47

and

49:50

it's interesting . It's a lot of fun . There's a lot of challenge

49:52

with that . And

49:54

first , my first kind of protocol has just been

49:56

put the pillars in place for what

49:58

they need to fucking know

50:00

, learn , understand the product , understand

50:02

everything that's happening in there . From my perspective

50:05

, before we could even start engaging with

50:07

them , engaging with prospects

50:09

, like how do you think about that ?

50:11

Yeah , so there's the decision

50:14

criteria on the person . So

50:16

the first thing you need to do is show what type of people do you

50:18

want . Be very , very clear . What are

50:20

the decision criteria in

50:23

the people you want ? Then you have to ask

50:25

yourself what is the evaluation

50:27

process to

50:29

determine ? Do they actually have those criteria

50:31

? So if you're looking for business acumen

50:34

and you're looking for drive and you're looking for personal

50:36

development and you're looking for deliberate learning and

50:38

you're looking

50:41

for critical thinking skills and you're looking for curiosity

50:43

so those six how

50:46

are you going to evaluate that ? Like , what process

50:48

are you gonna put someone through to

50:51

determine if they have those things ? So

50:53

, once you have that , that's your hiring criteria . But then

50:55

your training criteria is what

50:57

you actually need them to do ? What are they supposed

50:59

to learn ? And that's the skill layer

51:01

of the sales or the skill management layer

51:04

. So , yes , you need to lay that whole thing

51:06

out . What am I going to teach them

51:08

? What do they have to know ? How

51:10

are they supposed to execute ? What are the steps

51:12

? What are the process they have to gauge in what

51:14

you know ? And , yeah , and that becomes very

51:16

, very scripted as far as the framework

51:19

is concerned , in a way that they can execute on that

51:21

framework .

51:23

How do you measure success

51:25

of someone like that then afterwards , when you

51:27

release them into the world ?

51:29

They've hit their goals . You've got to be very clear

51:31

on what they're expected .

51:33

Very , very clear .

51:34

I mean , at the end of the day it's their performance goals , but

51:36

you have to decide what they are . But they can hit their goals .

51:39

Hmm , I get it . That makes sense . So

51:42

basically that can be a combination

51:44

of like working closely with them , reviewing

51:46

their work Like I remember watching some like sales

51:48

content on this , which was like you

51:50

want to be checking in , reviewing their calls

51:53

or reviewing their messages , maybe

51:55

once or twice like a day in the beginning , and

51:57

basically just making sure that they're hitting their criteria .

52:00

Yeah , yeah . I mean , look , if

52:02

they're new and you're coaching them , you want

52:04

to be observing how they're

52:06

applying what you taught them . Right

52:09

, you want to be observing how they're applying

52:12

what you taught them and you want to

52:14

keep guiding them

52:16

and steering them in the right direction

52:18

. But you should be seeing a

52:20

modicum of improvement as you go , and as long as they're

52:22

improving and those improving and turning

52:24

into results , then you should be OK .

52:28

That makes sense ? Do you have any principles on , like you

52:31

know , I've heard previously like hiring two people

52:33

and then basically like firing

52:35

those like the person , like that's not

52:38

performing or it's like a benchmark , versus like hiring

52:40

for one , because if I were for one they don't have

52:42

like any benchmark . Does that make sense ?

52:44

Yeah , no , I've always been a fan of hiring too , but

52:46

not everybody can afford to Right

52:49

, not everybody afford to TWO , not afford

52:51

to . But yeah

52:54

, I mean , look ideally and not even firing

52:56

one . I don't like the idea of firing one Like

52:58

you hire two . Think about a four quadrant matrix

53:01

. Hiring two minimizes

53:03

the risk . It's higher risk but it's

53:06

a greater probability of success . So

53:08

the point being is simply , if I

53:10

hire two people , four quadrat matrix

53:12

, they both make it . I

53:14

win Big time . Yeah

53:18

, guy A makes a guy B doesn't ? I

53:20

still win . Took a little bit of

53:22

a hit on the three months . The other guy didn't

53:24

make it , or girl didn't make it Right . Took

53:26

a couple of months hit , but not the end of the world . Scenario

53:28

three girl makes a guy , doesn't I

53:31

win ? Someone's working , I got a peed person's making

53:33

it , I took a little bit of a hit right that

53:35

that person , you know whatever two , three months

53:37

salary , but it was like six , 10 grand most . That shouldn't kill

53:39

you . Then the worst

53:41

case is neither one of them make it . Then

53:43

you can ask okay , what's wrong ? Should

53:45

we like ? Is the criteria wrong ? Is

53:48

the product even got a chance ? Like you know , if both

53:50

of them fail , that should be a big red light .

53:53

Man , that's amazing . I wish we could . I

53:55

could pick your brain for much longer . I think we need to come back

53:57

to it for your second book . Right , when you come up with another

53:59

book , we'll do another one . But

54:02

, man , I want to say a big thank you though . I really appreciate

54:04

this and I'm gonna do it for you

54:06

in the future . Always let me know .