0:11

Right man. I'm with DZ

0:14

. Cofield pastor of good hope,

0:16

father, husband, community activists

0:18

. Uh, my preaching

0:21

hero , man, learned everything I

0:23

know about preaching to learn from him.

0:26

Uh , man, everything about shoot man,

0:29

fathering and pastoring

0:31

and man life , uh

0:33

, bird , my father , uh

0:35

, man, I love this man.

0:37

And uh, but we

0:40

brought him on because , uh, he's

0:42

got a powerful ministry , uh,

0:45

in the city and in the nation. And

0:48

uh, beyond the pulpit

0:50

, he , uh, has a

0:52

reach in our community , uh

0:54

, former NAACP head here

0:57

and man, just one of the , uh, great

0:59

preaching and intellectual minds of our

1:01

generation. And so man

1:04

, uh, for , we get

1:06

into man, what we came

1:08

to talk about, which is , uh,

1:11

where do we go from here past the Coalfield

1:13

man, introduce yourself and

1:16

say hello to our audience. Well,

1:18

first of all, let me say hello to everybody.

1:20

I'm DZ Cofield. I'm

1:23

a native new Yorker. I've been in

1:25

Houston pastoring, the good hope church

1:28

for 26 years

1:30

and a former adjunct

1:33

teacher at Dallas, theological

1:35

seminary and college of biblical studies

1:37

, uh, run

1:40

a nonprofit as well called hope for families.

1:43

Uh, we have a state licensed childcare center and basically

1:45

, uh, looking at how

1:48

we can identify needs in our community

1:50

and be a

1:52

conduit to facilitate

1:55

change both on the practical side,

1:58

as well as on the policy side and

2:01

just, you know, fighting the good fight or

2:03

for our people, man, just trying to help people

2:06

fulfill their God given potential. So

2:08

just enjoying the journey, man, and I'm honored to

2:10

be with you , man. Thank you. Uh,

2:13

man. So tell us, you grew up in Brooklyn

2:15

and tell us a little bit about, I've never

2:18

asked you some of these questions, so I'm

2:20

, I'm personally curious about them and tell us

2:22

about growing up in Brooklyn, sixties

2:24

and seventies.

2:26

Yeah, so , um, I was born in

2:28

1961 actually

2:30

, uh, was born in

2:32

Brooklyn in Bed-Stuy and

2:34

then grew up between Bedstein and

2:36

the lower East side of Manhattan. Uh

2:38

, the Jacob Riis housing projects and

2:41

in alphabet city, 10th street and Avenue

2:43

D right off of FDR drive. And

2:46

so , um, you know, it

2:48

was really, really blessed, man. I mean,

2:51

you know, one had a mother and father in the home,

2:53

my father actually was a police officer at

2:55

the time. And so that

2:58

was, that was , uh , a whole,

3:01

you know , book in and of itself, man, just

3:03

, just listening and , and talking

3:05

to him. And as I got older hearing

3:07

stories about him on the

3:10

police force, he was on the police force at

3:12

a very, very , uh , critical time

3:14

in the sixties. Uh, when you had

3:16

the semi Symbionese liberation

3:19

army and uh , and the

3:21

black liberation army and the Panthers

3:23

, um, he was on the job

3:25

when police officers were being gunned

3:28

down and he was a police officer. And

3:30

I remember him telling me, you know, he was like, he was

3:32

down with the brothers, he understood,

3:35

you know, what was going on. He saw

3:37

the racism , uh , so much so

3:39

that when I told him I wanted to be a police officer,

3:42

he was like, no , you can't. Uh , so he

3:44

was in YPD yeah , he was in YPD.

3:46

He worked a transit, he

3:48

worked as a beat cop and then he worked

3:51

undercover narcotics as well. So he was,

3:53

he was like knee deep in it, man, for real,

3:56

for real. And um,

3:59

and so, you know, just

4:01

having talked to him and , and watched

4:03

him , um, and then he gave his

4:05

life to the Lord and,

4:08

you know, wasn't long after that,

4:10

probably within a year or

4:13

so. I gave my life

4:15

to the Lord and

4:17

, um , you know, just, just

4:20

watched him , uh , you

4:23

know, do his thing. Uh, probably

4:25

the biggest influences in my life other

4:27

than of course my mother and father were my maternal grandparents

4:30

and they lived in Brooklyn. That's

4:32

the house that I was born in. And

4:34

so that was, you know, the weekend

4:37

trick . I mean, we was always over there seeing them

4:39

and spending time with them and,

4:42

you know, the unconditional love man

4:44

that you get from, you know, grandparents,

4:47

their encouragement, their support , um,

4:51

you know, I wouldn't be who I am today without that

4:53

man. So powerful

4:56

part of my life, man. That's awesome. Uh,

4:58

so what made

5:00

you leave Brooklyn, man

5:03

? It's just seems, you know, I'm from the South.

5:05

So it seems like New York has stayed

5:07

in new Yorkers. What made you leave? Uh

5:10

, New York and say, man, I'm , I'm headed down

5:12

the swamp . Yeah. So

5:15

my family actually in middle

5:17

school , uh, moved

5:19

to South Jersey. My father's from Alabama

5:22

originally. And so he grew up farming.

5:25

Uh, you know, he would always tell me,

5:28

you know, he, he understood the difference between

5:30

G and high , which is,

5:32

you know, commands that you give to the mule and

5:34

pick cotton and all of those things. And

5:37

so he decided he wanted to leave the city

5:39

and wanted to buy some land. So he bought like 10

5:41

acres of land. Uh, he

5:43

and my mother and we moved to

5:45

South Jersey and man,

5:47

you know, it was like green acres, man, you

5:50

know, South

5:52

Jersey. No,

5:55

no South Jersey is like the South.

5:58

I mean, South Jersey is, is

6:00

rural. Uh, one

6:02

of the largest farming , uh,

6:05

agricultural producers , um

6:08

, much of the East coast

6:10

fresh produce comes out of South Jersey.

6:13

Yeah. And so , uh, that

6:15

was like a crazy part

6:18

of my life because I , I was born in

6:20

the city, grew up in the city, you

6:22

know, understood all of that mass transit and,

6:25

and everything. And then, you know, you

6:27

move to South Jersey and if you don't have

6:30

a car, you better have a bicycle.

6:32

You're going to do a whole lot of walking. And

6:35

so that was , uh

6:37

, a major shift. So I mean, I,

6:40

I learned how to, you know, pitch hay

6:42

and , and ride horses and slop

6:45

hogs and all of that stuff, man , uh,

6:48

in that five year

6:50

, six year period , uh , from

6:52

middle school through high school.

6:55

So South Jersey is, is the

6:57

closest metropolitan area to South Jersey

7:00

Philadelphia. And I have a lot of

7:02

family in Philadelphia proper.

7:04

And if we wanted to do something

7:06

in New York, if you wanted to go shopping, he was going

7:09

to buy some stuff. You would, you

7:11

know, go down to orchard street. Right. And

7:13

, and you go down and, you know, negotiate

7:16

, uh, you know, with the

7:18

proprietors on clothing

7:20

and things like that. Well, if you

7:22

wanted to go shopping and you were in South Jersey,

7:25

you know, we catch the bus, a New

7:27

Jersey transit and we go to downtown Philly. And

7:30

so that's how I reconnected with

7:32

Philly and a lot of family members there. So

7:35

for me to go to Swarthmore was

7:37

, uh , not a big stretch

7:39

because you know, so close to Philadelphia

7:42

and I wanted to be in a major

7:44

metropolitan area. Uh,

7:46

so I wasn't looking at staying in the state

7:49

of New Jersey or anything like that. Like

7:51

you, I didn't know the

7:53

distinctives between North Jersey

7:55

and South Jersey. And so it wasn't

7:57

until I got to South Jersey and South

7:59

Jersey was one of the Northern

8:02

havens of the KKK and,

8:05

you know, a lot of prejudice, not

8:07

just racially

8:10

in terms of black and white, but a lot

8:12

of ethnic , uh, issues

8:15

in terms of Italians and Jews

8:18

and Irish and, and, and that whole

8:20

thing. So just a lot of dynamics

8:22

going on, man, in that, in that community, man

8:25

. So , so you get to swath more , uh,

8:28

I can imagine school and , uh

8:30

, uh, we're looking

8:32

at the late seventies, early eighties. Uh,

8:36

yeah. I graduated from high school, 79

8:41

and , uh , went to Swarthmore

8:43

in the spring. I was in the class of 83,

8:45

so yeah. And

8:47

, uh, men, tell me about what

8:49

it's like in Swarthmore.

8:52

I imagine you're one of the only

8:54

brothers as Moore at

8:56

the time. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I'll

8:58

tell you it was tough, man. Even

9:00

more than being one

9:03

of a few African American students

9:05

there. Um, I think we

9:07

were probably at like 3% , uh,

9:10

African American students. Um

9:13

, but the other challenge was, man,

9:15

I just came to Christ and

9:17

in the spring of 79, I made really

9:20

dedicated my life to the Lord. And

9:22

so when I get on this campus, man, I'm like

9:24

one of a few brothers and

9:26

then I'm like super saved.

9:30

Legalistically ,

9:30

You know what I mean? The whole nine yards and

9:33

coming on a college campus man and

9:36

being super

9:37

Legalistic is probably not the best

9:40

way to ingratiate yourself in the arts .

9:43

So I'm like, man, I got Bible

9:46

in hand. I'm like, boom. You know what I mean? I'm Hey

9:48

man, nah, man, I'll party. I ain't going to

9:50

no parties, man. What? Nah, man, I love

9:52

Jesus. You know, and I'm

9:54

getting up man on, on, on Sunday

9:56

morning, man, other folk, man of bleary,

9:59

I'm just making it to brunch. And I'm coming back

10:01

from church. You don't mean I was,

10:03

I mean I was committed, man. Brother was sold

10:05

out. Uh, I remember

10:07

, uh, I got a letter

10:08

Job on campus work study

10:11

and yeah ,

10:11

Man, I'm working and I literally

10:14

, uh , opened a bank account,

10:16

a savings account to put my

10:19

title

10:19

Dives in , uh , until

10:21

I went back home for Thanksgiving. I

10:23

mean, yeah man

10:25

, dude, I was working it for real man.

10:28

Uh , my only outlet was the

10:31

gospel choir

10:32

On campus. There were really two organizations,

10:34

a black student association and

10:37

the gospel choir. And

10:39

uh , there were no fraternities, no

10:42

sororities. Uh, there was no

10:44

black life like that. I mean none.

10:47

Um, what really saved me as

10:50

Swarthmore quite honestly, because I was also

10:52

the first person in my family to go to college. So

10:55

to go to college on both sides

10:58

on both sides. And so nobody

11:01

could give me any counsel or advice. Um,

11:04

um , I'm super saved. I'm, legalistics

11:07

, I'm a new Christian and

11:09

just all of this stuff, man. It

11:11

is all kind of coming together.

11:14

Uh , what, what saved me was

11:17

the housekeepers and the cook

11:19

staff at Swarthmore

11:22

because they were all from Chester, Pennsylvania

11:25

and Chester , uh , Delaware

11:27

County at the time, I think was the second

11:30

or third richest County in

11:33

the United States. Chester

11:36

was one of the three poorest cities

11:39

for his size in the United

11:41

States. So you had this disparity between

11:44

this rich County, old

11:47

mainline Philadelphia money. And then

11:49

you had this really, really poor city

11:52

and the place you could work, if

11:54

you were a teenager, there was

11:57

a KFC and a McDonald's.

11:59

That was it. And so, you

12:01

know, drug sales of course rampant

12:04

and a lot of stuff going on in

12:07

the community. But those people man helped

12:09

save me because they invited me to their church.

12:12

And then I started hanging out with them. I met

12:14

a family , uh , Reverend

12:16

and, and mrs. Uh, avant.

12:19

And I went to their church.

12:21

He was an associate minister there ended

12:24

up , uh , getting called to pastor

12:26

a church later on, but we developed

12:28

a lifetime , uh , relationship.

12:31

And so that , that was really my

12:33

saving grace man to get around some people who

12:35

weren't talking about papers and those kinds of things.

12:38

But it was an interesting time, man, because Walkman was

12:40

always a very , uh , uh,

12:43

uh, not only is it a liberal arts school,

12:45

but it's a very liberal school in terms

12:47

of his political ideology, which

12:50

again, didn't bode well for me

12:53

as a new Christian and I was basically

12:55

like a fundamentalist man. I mean,

12:57

I was, you know, I was posting, I

12:59

was rocking it for real man. So it was a different,

13:01

different vibe. Yeah . I always had

13:04

a and a

13:06

heart, not only for the church,

13:09

but for the

13:11

community, your local and

13:14

your state community. And , and , and tell

13:17

me any of those influences come from

13:20

, uh, some of your experiences

13:22

as Swarthmore , uh

13:24

, actually proceeding that. Um,

13:27

my, I remember my

13:29

mom and dad were involved in the local NAACP

13:32

when I was in middle school and

13:35

in high school and,

13:38

and actually that's how my father ended up attending church

13:41

crazy enough and giving his life to the Lord because

13:44

he was recruiting members

13:46

for the local NAACP and

13:48

he had to go and he would go and give speeches

13:51

at churches, you know, soliciting

13:53

members. And he was there to sign people up and

13:56

set their man in the church man and,

13:58

and heard the gospel and , and, you know , gave

14:01

his life to the Lord man rededicate his life

14:03

to the Lord. And so it was, it was

14:05

really , uh , that example

14:07

that I saw in my mother and father who were

14:09

always concerned, who would

14:11

open up their home to help people and things

14:13

like that. Um, that

14:15

was, that was really a driving point. And

14:17

then in college , um, we had

14:19

some incidences and things

14:22

that happened in the early

14:24

eighties that challenged

14:27

us to take a stand , uh

14:30

, that challenged us. And by that

14:32

time I was president of a gospel

14:34

choir. And like I said, they were only

14:36

two black organizations on

14:38

campus. And really only one that was

14:40

a student run , uh,

14:43

from the perspective of, you know, we

14:45

didn't even have a, a

14:47

counselor , uh, on campus.

14:49

We didn't have a faculty. It was just, it

14:51

was just us. Yeah. It was just

14:53

us. And , um, it

14:56

, but it was a tremendous , uh,

14:58

learning time for

15:00

me. Um, and

15:03

then I think the other thing that happened was

15:06

in my senior year,

15:09

what would have been my senior year , uh

15:11

, my junior year, I was playing ball and I was captain

15:13

of the basketball team and my mother and father

15:15

split up and I didn't

15:17

know what was happening.

15:19

I knew something was happening to me emotionally

15:22

didn't know what it was. Um,

15:24

discovered later on some of the things that have happened,

15:27

both my mother and father deceased now. Um,

15:29

but I discovered , uh , later

15:32

on the abusiveness and the relationship

15:34

I've , I remember I had to quit the basketball

15:36

team in the middle of the season and never

15:39

could tell the coach or my teammates,

15:42

what the deal was, because

15:44

I really didn't know. I just know my mother

15:47

pleaded with me not to go

15:49

back and we had like a Christmas tournament

15:51

and some other stuff. And I mean, she like begged

15:53

me not to go back. And I'm like, what do you mean?

15:55

I gotta go back. And, and

15:57

so I ended up staying and then

15:59

I found out later on, I left

16:01

of course to go back for the spring semester. But

16:04

, um , just, just a lot of

16:06

, uh , a lot of craziness, but that's where it

16:08

all came from, man. Just, just

16:10

living life and a concern about

16:12

people. I'll tell you. What's interesting.

16:15

Uh , PT, somebody said to me, they

16:18

said, man, what , what kind of reading have you

16:20

done to develop

16:24

the heart that you have for the community?

16:27

You know? And they, you know, it started, you know, you

16:29

know, man, have you read Cohen? You know, did

16:31

you read, you know , uh, you know, Schlei

16:34

marker, you know , you know

16:36

, uh , all right,

16:39

right. Neighbor , you know, like what did you read?

16:41

And I was like, Jesus, you

16:44

know , and , and the dude was like, what

16:46

do you mean, Jesus? I was like the Bible.

16:49

And he was like, well, I mean, but I know you're evangelical.

16:52

I was like, yeah, but

16:54

I read the Bible like Jesus,

16:57

Matthew 25, you know, you just like,

16:59

you're supposed to love people. Like , you

17:01

know,

17:03

Right. It's right there. You're

17:06

right, right. It's like, man, just read the red letter, babe

17:08

. Just read the red letter, you know, it's

17:10

so it's, it's really kind of interesting

17:12

to me, but that's really ,

17:14

Um, where my heart for the community

17:17

came from, man, just on a , on

17:19

a sociological side, seeing my mom

17:21

and dad and the work that they did. Uh,

17:24

and then seeing people, man hurting.

17:27

Um, I worked in a former life as a

17:29

probation officer, juvenile probation officer

17:32

saw a lot of the disparities , uh,

17:34

in education, in the criminal injustice

17:37

system. And so

17:39

all of those things kinda just folded in

17:41

man. What made you

17:44

or pushed you or propelled you to

17:46

come South and go to Dallas?

17:48

Theological? Yeah. So

17:50

I left school. I was, I was

17:52

in the class of 83 and I think this will

17:54

encourage somebody, man. I was in the

17:56

class of 83 and

17:59

when my mother and father split up,

18:02

I dropped out of school. Um,

18:04

I used to tell people, my mom and dad

18:06

split up, my dad wouldn't pay for school. And so I

18:08

had to drop out and in actuality,

18:11

my dad never really paid for school. It really

18:13

wasn't financial. When I looked back, it

18:16

was really emotional and

18:19

I was just emotionally, man,

18:21

just wiped out. And

18:24

uh, so I left school. Um

18:27

, so, okay. So here's the crazy

18:30

part. So I was going in the service. Oh

18:32

wow. Oh , I wanted to , uh , be

18:34

a chaplain and my dad

18:36

was in the air force, but I was going to go in the Navy

18:38

because I was too big

18:41

to go in the air force. I think

18:43

the weight limit for the air force

18:45

for my size, my height was two 41.

18:48

And to go into the Navy, it was

18:50

two 62. And I was like two

18:53

65 or something like that. So

18:55

I'm like, okay man, I can, I can lose weight. I can, I'm

18:57

just going to go in the Navy. And I go

18:59

in man. And the recruiter is

19:01

like on me because I took my exam.

19:04

And so I tested high enough to

19:07

go into nuclear power. And

19:09

I'm like, nah, man, I'm going to be a chaplain.

19:11

He's like, no, you don't understand,

19:14

dude. We don't have no brothers in nuclear power.

19:16

I said, and you still don't. Cause I want to

19:18

be a chaplain. And he's like, well, you

19:20

can't even qualify for chaplain . Cause you don't have your degree.

19:23

You gonna have to go to school and finish your undergrad

19:25

and boom and boom, you can only go in as

19:27

an assistant chaplain. And I was like, okay,

19:30

I'll go in as assistant chaplain. And

19:32

so I had had uh , some knee

19:34

surgery, some other stuff. So I had to go get

19:37

all of my medical records, man. Let's do drove me all

19:39

over. I got all my medical records and everything. I

19:41

go to weigh in. I'm two pounds overweight.

19:45

And so they won't accept

19:47

me until I lose two pounds. Now looking

19:50

back, here's the crazy part. I mean, I

19:52

think most of us who were adults, no

19:55

, it's not hard to lose two pounds. Right. I mean,

19:58

you know, he sweated out, right

20:00

, right. One day don't eat and then go on

20:02

to sauna. I mean you can lose waterway.

20:04

Right. And

20:07

I don't know why, man. It didn't hit me. I'm running

20:09

around the block. I'm trying to do all this stuff, man.

20:12

And I got this phone call from my dad and

20:16

you know, I've only seen my dad cried

20:18

just a couple of times in life. One was

20:20

when his grandmother passed, who

20:22

was like his mother, she raised him and

20:25

maybe a couple of times where God was doing some

20:27

things in his life. And he called me on

20:29

the phone man. And he is just booming

20:31

. And I'm like, Hey dad,

20:33

what's wrong. And he's like, man, you can't go into

20:35

service. And I'm like,

20:39

okay, why not? Like I

20:41

just got two pounds to lose and I'm done. I got

20:43

all my paperwork and everything. He's like, God

20:45

has something else for you to do. God has something

20:47

else for you to do. And I'm like,

20:50

okay, what? He's like, I don't

20:53

know. He said, man, but just God, it's just this burden

20:55

on me man. And he's crying, man.

20:57

Like why he's telling me this and I'm going, ah,

21:01

li I'm like, okay. And so I

21:03

never went back. I never went back.

21:06

I ended up moving to New York, moving

21:08

back with my grandfather and

21:11

June of July

21:14

of 19 , uh,

21:17

84, my

21:19

grandfather passed away and

21:23

you know, it was just a blessing. I was actually there with my grandmother

21:26

to help her through that. And

21:31

man, I , it , it , it,

21:33

it took me , uh , my

21:35

degree was conferred

21:37

in 1989. So for somebody who's listening,

21:40

I basically was on the 10 year plan. Like

21:42

I was supposed to graduate in 83. Um,

21:46

I didn't go back to Swarthmore

21:48

because I really, I was ashamed. And

21:51

the enemy had me thinking like I was like the only

21:53

person ever to have dropped out of school. Right. I

21:55

was the only person who, you know , didn't finish.

21:58

And man, I just didn't want to go back.

22:01

When my grandfather passed , uh,

22:04

I got called actually to a church

22:07

in Amityville,

22:10

New York, out in long Island, Suffolk

22:12

County. Um, my preaching

22:15

gift was ahead of my

22:17

pastoral maturity, right. So

22:20

I get called to this church, small

22:22

church. And I'm there serving

22:24

man. And I really, I mean, I'm

22:26

looking back, I really don't have a clue what I'm doing.

22:28

I'm just, I'm just man preaching and

22:30

them deacons, man. It just tear me up, man.

22:32

I mean, they they're ripping me a new one.

22:35

And, and I remember,

22:37

and I got to the place where, because I

22:39

was working, I was selling , uh, I

22:42

was a communications consultant,

22:44

which is a fancy way of saying I was selling

22:46

beepers and pagers . Right. And

22:49

so , uh, I'm selling beepers

22:51

and pages to people, businessmen

22:54

and everything. And

22:58

God just really impressed upon me, man.

23:00

And I got to go back to school. I got to get back to school.

23:03

And so I went to the church and

23:05

I told the leaders, I said, listen, I said, I'm going

23:07

to go back and finish my undergrad. I'm

23:10

real close. And

23:12

I'm going to start taking some classes

23:14

and I need you

23:17

all. I may need you all to help me. I

23:19

may need you to tee some Bible studies.

23:21

You know, when I'm gone, if

23:23

I have to take class like on a Wednesday night and

23:26

they said, we're not teaching anything, that's

23:28

what we hired you. And

23:31

so I was like, Oh,

23:34

I was like, okay. And

23:36

so I jetted

23:39

and , and made the decision

23:41

that I was going to go back to Swarthmore

23:44

because I was so close to graduating. And

23:47

so man, I make this walk back up on this

23:49

campus, man. And you know, it's

23:51

, there's legacy money. There's old money

23:53

there, man. I'm , I'm an affirmative

23:55

action dude. Right? They just let me in the diversity

23:57

here on campus. I understand it. And

24:00

so I go into the registrar's office and

24:03

I'm man, I'm terrified, man. Uh

24:05

, cause I , the shame fear,

24:09

it's just like all of this stuff, man, going on inside

24:11

of me and I , I go to the campus,

24:13

I go to the registrar's office, walk

24:16

in, lady says, can I help you? I said, yes.

24:18

You know , uh, tell them my name,

24:20

tell them my , my classification.

24:24

And I was in the class of 83 and

24:26

you know, I want to come back. I want to finish my degree.

24:29

Um , this was like 86. So I

24:31

need to my transcript. I need to see exactly

24:34

what I need to graduate and you know, who

24:36

can I talk to about how to enroll

24:38

in whatever have you. And so she goes,

24:40

gets the registrar and the registrar comes out

24:43

and she's like, Oh my God, how are you doing?

24:45

So it was the person who was a registrar.

24:48

If I'm not mistaken, I think they would be assistant

24:50

registrar or had just worked

24:53

there when I was a student. So she

24:55

remembered me. So

24:57

she's like, look, I looked at your

24:59

transcript. All of your elective classes

25:01

are done. I know she said , all of your required

25:04

classes have done. You said, so you

25:06

have to do is take some elective . You

25:08

said, you know, she said, you'd have to talk

25:10

though to your department chair because

25:13

you know, we have a residential requirement.

25:16

You have to spend the last two years on campus.

25:20

Um, and see if they'll waive that and whatever, have you. So

25:23

he's like , let me call him . So she called him , uh

25:25

, Donald CaseWare . It was his name. She

25:27

called him and

25:29

I go over and

25:32

I meet with him and he's like, man, it's great to see

25:34

you. We small talk. He

25:36

said, look, he said, man, you know, what's going

25:38

on? I told him, man, I'm married with kids.

25:41

You know, I'm trying not to come back and finish

25:43

my degree. He said, man, no

25:45

problem. He waived the two year requirement

25:48

told me, Hey man, take classes

25:51

wherever you can take them. So

25:54

you don't have to spend the money. Uh,

25:56

come back. If it's a three credit class,

25:58

we'll have you write a paper for the fourth credit,

26:02

bring us syllabus. We'll approve it.

26:04

And then just write your senior

26:07

paper and then you'll

26:09

be done. And so that's what I did, man, for

26:11

like two and a half years, man. I just started

26:13

taking one class at a time. Cause

26:15

I was working at night. No man, I got two

26:17

kids and grind

26:20

just , Oh dude, you're talking about a grind,

26:22

man. I mean, you know, I tell people all the time,

26:25

you know, I worked seven years between

26:29

finishing undergrad and grad

26:31

school man at Dallas and working

26:33

nights, man, and going to school full time is

26:36

a grind. And

26:38

I was just making it happen, man. And

26:40

taking a class here. Sometimes I could fit

26:42

in two and I look back

26:44

now, man, I just see God's favor. I remember it

26:46

was a class on urban sociology

26:49

that just blew me away. And,

26:52

but I went in, got a copy of the syllabus.

26:55

The class is full. So I got to get permission

26:57

from the teacher to let me in the class.

26:59

And she's like, there's no more room. And

27:02

I said, ma'am . I said, listen, I'm um

27:04

, you know, I'm here. I'm just trying

27:06

to finish my degree. And

27:08

I didn't even tell her the whole story. I'm like in the first

27:10

sentence. And she said, you're coming back to

27:12

finish your degree. I said, yes ma'am. She

27:14

said, give me the paper. She said , anybody that

27:16

wants to come back and finish their welcome

27:19

in his class anytime . And, and

27:21

that, that, and I learned

27:23

not just the value of education, but I learned

27:25

the value of community college education

27:28

because you know, so many times of major

27:30

universities, your first two years, you

27:32

being taught by graduate assistants, right?

27:34

You're not even being taught by the actual professors

27:37

in, in that community college setting, man,

27:40

those professors were unbelievable. So

27:42

I ended up going to Penn state. Then I went to temple,

27:44

took some classes there, family search

27:47

sociology and all kinds of stuff, man.

27:49

And a man just had a tremendous

27:52

time. Then went back to Swarthmore, got my degree

27:56

finished in 1989,

27:58

turned in my paper. It was accepted. They

28:01

say , Hey, you graduated your degree.

28:04

Won't be confirmed until the spring

28:06

of 1990.

28:09

I moved to Dallas man in 1989.

28:13

And so I was in school already before

28:15

was conferred . Yeah. So, so

28:18

here I am, man. I'm in a class of

28:20

83. My degree actually

28:22

gets conferred in 1990, but

28:24

I'm already in Dallas finishing up my first

28:27

year. And I ended up in Dallas because

28:30

when I looked at the people who influenced

28:33

me , uh, one

28:35

person was dr. E V Hill. Um

28:38

, somebody that I just admired

28:40

as a preacher of the gospel

28:43

is simplicity, but boldness

28:45

in preaching. Uh , the

28:47

second person that influenced my preaching

28:50

, uh, was dr

28:52

. Lewis Patterson and just

28:54

how he defined expositional

28:57

preaching a giant giant.

29:00

And then the third person that really impacted

29:02

my ministry was , uh,

29:04

dr. Herb Lusk. And , uh,

29:07

he's known as the prey affiliate

29:09

, right? He was a person

29:11

that was a church. I attended part

29:13

of my time at Swarthmore. And when I

29:15

finished the swath , uh , when I left school,

29:18

I ministered there. Um,

29:21

in an intense way would pass the

29:23

Lusk. Man. You talk about a

29:25

love for the community. That dude,

29:27

man, I , I would go around in a van

29:30

at the time. This is before gentrification

29:33

happened. Uh , the Richard

29:35

Allen housing projects was like some

29:37

of the toughest housing, public housing

29:40

in the country. And man,

29:42

we drive the van through all of

29:44

these communities, man. It was like, it was like CUNY

29:46

on steroids, right? Yeah . Uh

29:48

, you know, I mean, and, and we would

29:50

drive through and man, we picking

29:53

kids up and we bringing them over to the

29:55

church and we feed them and big

29:57

Thanksgiving giveaways, man, you

29:59

know, families are coming man with shopping

30:02

carts . And I remember because he used to play

30:04

with the Eagles and he was a chaplain for the Eagles.

30:07

And so the Eagles, you know, they would come

30:09

through and do stuff, man, over the holidays

30:11

and things. But he really taught

30:13

me what it meant to

30:15

minister in an urban

30:17

core and how to facilitate

30:21

change in a positive way

30:23

in your community. Man, I was , that was

30:25

invaluable lessons that, that do taught

30:28

me and he's still alive, man. And we still talk

30:31

periodically, but man, just invaluable

30:34

lessons. I was choosing

30:36

between Dallas and

30:38

Southwestern , um,

30:41

passed the Hill past the Patterson recommended Southwestern.

30:45

Um, but the history of Dallas

30:47

seminary around expositional preaching

30:50

and the Christian education program,

30:52

those were the two things that I really thought I needed

30:55

when I moved back to Pennsylvania to

30:57

finish as Swarthmore, I went

30:59

back to the church I attended when I was in college,

31:03

talk to the pastor there, he was overseeing

31:05

a small church in Chester, Pennsylvania.

31:08

They were looking for a pastor. And

31:10

so he said, man, you have some pastoral experience

31:13

. He says, man, I think it would be great. So he recommended

31:15

me. So that's how I got called to my second church.

31:18

And I pastored at the freedom church

31:20

for two and a half years. Man

31:22

just had a tremendous time. Um,

31:25

interestingly enough, I didn't have to

31:27

leave. I could have went to the Dallas extension

31:30

in Langhorne and I had a great

31:32

job at a school for

31:34

adjudicated youth. Uh,

31:36

looking back now, knowing what I know, I probably

31:39

would've stayed, which is why God didn't let

31:41

me know what I know now, men

31:43

. Cause I was like, nah, man,

31:45

I'm going to Dallas. I'm going to Dallas. And

31:48

so, you know, we packed up the U haul man.

31:50

And by that time I had three kids

31:54

and I had this crazy job man at Glen

31:56

middle schools , I was a supervisor and

31:58

we had like the best medical

32:00

insurance. Like I didn't pay a dime for

32:02

my youngest son being born like no

32:04

like no deductible or anything

32:07

state of the art facilities we could use on

32:09

the campus. I had free housing.

32:11

I mean I had all kinds of stuff, man. I look back now. I'm

32:13

like, dude, what was you? Gossip

32:19

go to Dallas. And so I

32:21

went to Dallas man and uh , it

32:23

was, it was a tremendous, tremendous

32:25

experience for me. Um, you

32:28

got to Dallas, were there any

32:30

, uh, institutional challenges

32:33

, uh, systematic racism

32:35

you experienced, you know, we, we

32:37

getting into itself. Yeah,

32:40

absolutely. Man, there, there was.

32:42

So here's what I've learned, man, about white people

32:45

, uh, even the most for

32:48

a white person to call themselves a racist,

32:51

they have to be over the top. Right.

32:54

Um, you know, because we we've seen people

32:57

who, who just did some really racist

32:59

stuff who would

33:01

tell you in the midst of them doing

33:03

it, but I'm not a racist

33:06

. You see , I think they're blind to it. Or

33:08

what , what is, what do you think is going on in the head or somebody

33:10

like that? Cause we run it at the time. No,

33:13

I think, I think what goes on is

33:15

that the people who are racist

33:20

or practice racism, it

33:24

is, it is part

33:26

of their nature because it's how they've been

33:28

raised. So they don't see

33:30

it as ugly. They don't see

33:32

it as sin because

33:35

that's just how they've been raised. You

33:37

know? So Amy Cooper, for example,

33:40

when she calls the police and wants to weaponize

33:42

the police against Chris Cooper, who's out there watching

33:45

birds , you know what I mean? And she

33:47

says, I'm going to tell him that , that you know,

33:49

a black man is threatening my life. She

33:51

doesn't even understand how racist

33:53

that is. And then when she issues or apology,

33:56

she says, but I'm not

33:58

a racist. And

34:01

it's like, no, if you, if you

34:03

try to weaponize the police

34:05

against a black man purpose

34:07

, that that is a racist act , right?

34:10

You said the black man, right?

34:12

That's that's , that's an intentionally racist act.

34:15

Um , I think what I ran into in

34:17

Dallas seminary , uh , were

34:22

well meaning people who

34:24

I think love God and

34:27

some of whom love to the best of their ability.

34:31

Um , but they didn't see it. And

34:35

now I understand why. Um

34:37

, so I I'll give you an example and this kind

34:39

of give you , uh , just a frame of reference.

34:42

Um, I go to Dallas in the fall of 1989.

34:46

I don't even realize the

34:49

majority books in my library were written

34:51

by Dallas grads

34:54

or Dallas professors. Right. And

34:57

I start reading the back of the books and I'm like,

34:59

Oh wait a minute. He said, Dallas, I mean he's a down

35:01

. Huh? So when I get on the campus,

35:04

I'm walking, I'm going, who is that?

35:06

Oh my God, that's him. Who

35:08

is that? Oh my God, that's him. So

35:11

one of my , uh , heroes

35:15

, uh , dispensational

35:17

theology and eschatology

35:20

was John Walsh . Right ? Several

35:22

of his books and dr.

35:25

Walbert was the chancellor at

35:27

the time he was president and

35:29

then stepped down as president became,

35:32

chancellor has an office in the student

35:34

center that's named after him.

35:37

And so I make an appointment,

35:39

he's an institution at the institution. Right.

35:42

So I'm , I'll make an appointment. I'm going to go see

35:44

dr. Walford man . And

35:46

dr. Walbert. I found out man ruled

35:48

with an iron fist, right? I

35:50

mean, you know, if , if, if a first year, second

35:53

year professor said

35:55

something in the media , he tell him to shut up. They didn't know what

35:57

they were talking about. You know, they just got there . I mean,

35:59

you know, he's just that kind of guy, but

36:03

it took that kind of leadership to

36:06

lead that campus through the tremendous

36:08

expansion and growth that they had gone. So

36:10

I go to see dr. Walbert man, I make this appointment

36:14

and you know, I'm telling them , man, how much

36:16

I appreciate him . I take some of the books that I

36:18

want him to sign the books for me. And

36:21

then I said, dr. Walford . I said, man, let me ask you a question.

36:24

I said, you know, African Americans

36:27

were welcomed

36:29

on this campus during

36:32

your administration. And that was

36:34

a fundamental shift because

36:37

foreign students, including Africans

36:40

were allowed on the campus before African

36:43

Americans were out black

36:45

people. If you walked on the campus , now

36:48

seminary, you could have been arrested. Right.

36:51

And so I said to him, I said, what was

36:53

it that made you all open ? But

36:56

up to African Americans,

36:58

you know, what was it? And he said,

37:02

we let colored people on this campus

37:05

because the law told us we had to

37:08

here . It's crazy, man . Uh

37:10

, wait , so wait a minute. I

37:12

want you to get this. So this is 1990

37:16

and I kind of go, yeah,

37:19

I'm like, okay, wait a minute. We went through,

37:21

we would n****s then

37:24

colored Negro, black

37:28

Afro American African

37:30

women. I'm like, we going to go through at least five

37:33

iterations here, bro. I'm

37:35

like, did he just say colors crazy

37:37

? And then I'm waiting. Cause I'm thinking it's a comma.

37:40

And then he's going to say, but the Holy spirit

37:42

or something, he

37:44

, I mean, dead pan stoic

37:46

was just like, we let

37:49

colored people on this case because

37:52

the law told us. And

37:54

I was like, and that

37:56

honestly has

37:59

been sadly

38:01

the majority of dealings that I've had

38:03

with white evangelicals, that

38:06

the law had to take

38:08

us where we wouldn't allow

38:10

love to take us. And that's crazy. Uh

38:13

, you are part of the generation

38:16

of African American preachers that

38:19

will allow them into theologically

38:22

conservative institutions because those

38:24

guys before King and all

38:27

those guys didn't have the, I wanted to,

38:29

but didn't have the opportunity. Can you,

38:31

I mean, you know that history, can you like,

38:33

man, just, I don't people understand

38:36

this or notice, but can you , can you kind of flesh

38:38

that out for us? Yeah. So

38:40

I think, I think we were , uh,

38:42

my class, we were

38:44

kind of the first group of any substance

38:47

or size who came

38:49

from the traditional church community

38:51

who were going back. So

38:53

even when I had , uh, the

38:56

free church and other groups who say

38:58

, Hey, man, we want to plant a church with you. I

39:00

said, for what, you know, I'm going back

39:02

to my neighborhood, man. I'm going back to my community.

39:04

It's already existing churches there. And

39:06

I was arguing for church revitalization

39:09

even then. Um, one

39:11

of my major professors at

39:13

Dallas was a gentleman named Aubrey Malphurs

39:16

who , uh, had written several

39:18

works on planting churches

39:21

and planting churches was the best

39:23

way to evangelize communities and those

39:25

kinds of things. And man,

39:27

I would sit there in class with him and go, man,

39:30

look, I know churches

39:32

that already have buildings and facilities

39:35

and land. They just

39:37

need to be led through a

39:39

transitional process and what that

39:41

looks like. And it's so interesting.

39:43

We would go back and forth , uh , in

39:45

a really cool way. And then later on, after

39:48

I graduated, he wrote a book on , uh

39:50

, pouring new wine into old. Wineskins

39:52

how to revitalize churches. But , uh,

39:55

it, it was tough because

39:59

minimally , uh,

40:02

no , I don't want you to say minimally. Uh,

40:05

where many of the white

40:07

brothers and sisters on the campus

40:09

, uh, African

40:12

Americans would tolerate it even

40:14

when I was in seminary. And we're talking about in the late

40:17

eighties, early nineties. Um,

40:20

and part of it is because I

40:22

think it's better now, but most white

40:25

churches, they

40:27

didn't even like the term white church, right?

40:30

Because for them it was just church. Everything

40:34

else is an aberration off of

40:37

church. And that's true. So

40:40

whether it's our mission work or whatever,

40:43

they just take church and

40:45

they don't even view gospel. They

40:47

don't view culture as

40:49

something white people don't view culture as something

40:51

that they have, everybody else has

40:53

culture, they just do what

40:56

they do and what they do is right. And

40:58

everything else is wrong or an

41:00

aberration off of it's the standard

41:03

whereby which they measure everything else.

41:05

So if something's good, it's

41:07

because it's close to what they do. If it's bad,

41:09

it's exactly it's far away from what they

41:11

do. Right? So what they do, what

41:13

they think is cetera. I had some

41:15

tremendous professors, man, who,

41:18

who saw beyond that foolishness.

41:22

Some of the coolest guys, man, where the missing

41:24

missions department, cause

41:26

the missions people, man, you know, had lived overseas.

41:29

Most of them were at least

41:31

, uh , bilingual and

41:34

they saw it. They understood, you

41:36

know, and what I didn't know at the time

41:38

was that the church growth

41:40

movement that was

41:42

really given birth to out of fuller

41:45

theological seminary was

41:47

really the application of biblical

41:50

missiological principles in

41:52

an American context. That's

41:55

really where church growth . So guys like

41:57

when Arne and , and other

41:59

people like that, man, they just took

42:01

those missiological principles that you

42:03

would use to reach people in

42:05

a foreign country and said, okay

42:08

, America is a foreign country. How

42:10

do we reach American man who are

42:13

unchurched the unsaved ? And

42:15

so it was, it was tremendous

42:17

man. But you know,

42:19

I think one of the things that I've

42:21

discovered, even in the context

42:23

of this conversation today,

42:26

when you hear phrases like

42:28

white supremacy, white

42:31

privilege, white

42:33

fragility, when you hear those things,

42:36

what I've come to realize is that

42:39

much of it is white ignorance.

42:42

Like they don't know. They really

42:45

don't know. I mean , because they've

42:47

never been taught a history of

42:49

black people beyond slavery and most black

42:51

people haven't been told, you

42:53

know? And so, you know, we just had

42:56

a person come to

42:58

the church and register their child

43:00

for the Barbara Jordan child development center.

43:02

And they say, who is Barbara Jordan? I

43:05

never heard of this as a black, never heard of her.

43:08

This is a black person, never heard of her.

43:10

And so, you know, I

43:13

went , when we fully

43:15

understand that

43:17

there are people who know the name

43:19

King because of a holiday and

43:22

may have tangentially

43:24

heard of Malcolm X because he

43:26

was just juxtaposed against King,

43:29

but never heard of a Booker T Washington

43:32

or WB Dubois or a

43:34

Marcus Garvey or, you

43:36

know, a Fred Hampton or, you

43:38

know, elders Cleaver or never

43:41

heard of any of those people, man. And don't

43:43

understand, you know, their historical

43:45

context, man, you know,

43:47

we just had , uh , you

43:49

know, John Lewis and

43:51

CT, Vivian just passed away this past

43:54

Friday, but being so many people

43:56

had no idea, both of those

43:59

guys. Right, right. I

44:01

thought the coolest picture was a

44:04

picture of them arrested at

44:07

the same protest in Jackson, Mississippi.

44:10

And they both have this like almost

44:13

smile smirk on their face. That's like,

44:16

yeah, like this is like, this is all

44:18

good. You know what I mean? And it's like,

44:20

yeah, we in this fight, it's good. You

44:22

know? Yeah. Yeah. And so

44:24

, um, yeah, it was , it was tough, man.

44:27

It was tough. I remember us,

44:29

we, we pushed for

44:31

inclusivity , uh,

44:34

just racially. And I remember

44:36

they started , uh, an ethnic chapel

44:38

week. Uh, cause I was

44:40

like, look, man, I came a worship man.

44:43

That's like, you know, and so they

44:45

, they would have an ethnic chapel week. I think it

44:47

was once a year. And of

44:49

course , uh, you know,

44:51

those were the highest , uh, authorized

44:54

cut days cause nobody wanted

44:56

to come to those chapel services. Um,

44:59

it was crazy. I remember my senior

45:01

year , uh, first

45:04

time in the history,

45:07

I think of Dallas seminary, if I'm not mistaken

45:09

, uh , usually senior

45:12

preaching week are

45:14

the four best preachers

45:17

that took senior preaching. And

45:19

then you would preach and senior preaching

45:21

chapel. And at

45:24

the end of the week, the professors would pick the

45:26

winner of the ha

45:28

Ironside award for excellence

45:30

in expository preaching. And

45:34

my senior year, I think if I'm

45:36

not mistaken was the first time they had two

45:39

African-Americans in the final four.

45:41

Yeah that's . And because the

45:43

year before they had

45:46

, uh, an Indian gentlemen

45:49

win , uh, and then the year before that

45:51

a brother one and the year

45:53

after me, a brother

45:56

should've won, but he , he was a CE major

45:58

and he didn't take senior preaching,

46:01

but he preached in the African

46:03

American chapel and got a standing

46:05

ovation. I mean like wreck the house

46:07

. He just didn't take senior preaching. And

46:11

the year that I won the preaching

46:13

award , uh, I got

46:16

word that some white guys went to the pastoral

46:18

ministries department, met with the chair and

46:20

wanted to know what was going on with all these black

46:23

guys , uh, in

46:26

the preaching award. And

46:30

Well , it's funny. Cause one of the white professors

46:32

Said to me, he said, man, have you heard of that

46:34

movie? White men can't jump. And I was like,

46:37

yeah, he's like, well we need to do

46:39

another one. White men can't preach.

46:42

I was like, I was like, prof , you

46:44

said it. I didn't, I didn't say that.

46:47

And he was like, no man.

46:48

I said , I'm serious, man. Uh,

46:51

so there , there were a lot of things,

46:53

man. I can remember , uh,

46:55

the wives of faculty who

46:57

volunteered at Luke's closet,

47:00

which was where people would donate

47:02

clothing and food to help students out.

47:05

And you know, when African

47:08

students walked in, man, it was

47:10

so gracious and helpful. And I

47:12

literally watched them when African

47:14

Americans walked in to get assistance.

47:16

And man, the whole tone changed.

47:19

I mean it was like, it just acting

47:21

real funky, real crazy. And it

47:23

was like, Whoa, wait a

47:25

minute. Where does come from? You know? Uh,

47:28

and , and, and they didn't understand the history,

47:31

you know what I mean? They, they just didn't understand it,

47:33

man. And , and so , uh,

47:35

it, it, it was challenging, but I think

47:38

, uh, things have gotten better. I told

47:40

you, pastor Patterson wanted me to go to Southwestern

47:43

after I went to Dallas

47:46

and several of us, we took a

47:48

trip. I want to say my third year at

47:50

Dallas, we literally rented a van. It's like

47:52

seven to eight of us, drove down to Euston

47:54

, hung out with him all day

47:57

and then drove back to Dallas that night. And

48:00

, uh, had a great time, man. We was

48:02

with him for three services and

48:05

he ended up sending both of his sons that down

48:07

with some man , uh, afterwards.

48:10

Um , cause he , he valued the education. He

48:12

just felt like, you know, you would come

48:14

out really not

48:17

understanding your culture

48:19

or appreciative of your culture. And

48:21

when he saw that there was a group of us there who were

48:23

like, nah, past a week, we

48:26

come back home and we, you know, we

48:28

, we eaten the meat, throw the bones away. So

48:30

that's what it was. So , uh , pivoting

48:33

, um , Matt given your, his

48:36

man , you've got a rich history , uh

48:38

, man, that needs to be captured

48:41

in the book. We'll talk about that later. Um,

48:44

well , and , and let me, I'm gonna interrupt you there because , cause

48:46

you raise an interesting point, man. When I went

48:49

to Dallas, I got this crazy

48:51

education. And when I say a crazy

48:53

education, you know , uh

48:56

, how it , Hendrix used to tell

48:58

us, don't let seminary get

49:00

in the way of your education. Right.

49:03

And I remember listening to him like the first

49:05

semester when he said that to us, I'm like, okay,

49:08

prof , what are you talking about, man?

49:10

I had a gene

49:13

Getz for , I think, three classes or

49:15

classes , uh, including

49:17

sharpening the focus of the church, church,

49:20

renewal class with him , a family

49:22

life class with him. Um

49:24

, I worked

49:26

for dr. EK Bailey , uh

49:28

, EK, Bailey ministries. I worked at

49:30

the urban alternative for Tony Evans,

49:33

you know? And uh, and

49:35

then I hung out with Aubrey Malphurs

49:38

and he put together a group and

49:40

he called us 300 hiddens and

49:42

we was like, okay, what does that? And he was like, you know, that

49:45

baseball, you guys had , he

49:47

was like, no . Right, right. He's

49:49

like, no, you guys have high potential

49:51

in ministry. And you know, and so

49:53

we met every week with him and

49:56

when we had guest speakers come in,

49:58

we would sit down man. And we get the Brown

50:01

bag with them. Like they speak at chapel and

50:03

then we get to have lunch with them afterwards man

50:05

. And just chop it up. So people like RC

50:07

Sproll uh,

50:10

you know, I remember Charles Stanley came and spoke. I mean,

50:12

just, just on and on man, we would get a chance

50:15

to interact with people. You know, we

50:17

were studying bill Hybels and

50:19

Rick Warren man in the early

50:21

nineties when they first got started

50:23

in and looking at their ministries

50:25

philosophically and the two

50:28

and , and the cultural distinctives in Southern

50:30

California and the Midwest and all

50:33

of that kind of stuff, man, it was, it was

50:35

crazy. And so I always tell

50:37

people, man, I got the best. I

50:39

got the best education man I could possibly get.

50:41

And then I was working for the juvenile

50:43

department. So I was constantly

50:46

in that real world piece

50:48

, I was kind of going in, it was almost like

50:50

contrast hold man.

50:53

Right? Lecture lab. I'm like, okay, scripture

50:55

here. Okay, wait a minute. How will you apply this over

50:57

here? You know? And

50:59

I I'm seeing the disparities, I'm hearing

51:02

the disparities. And when

51:04

I went out into the field as a probation

51:06

officer, I saw the insufficiencies

51:08

of the church. Right. Because I'm

51:10

literally, I'm going to homes.

51:13

Cause I've got to make home visits. And I got

51:15

my little badge. And so when I'm walking

51:17

in the neighborhood, you know, and

51:20

Boys on the corner and they're like, man, who, that

51:22

n***a over there, you know? And they

51:24

talking to each other, but they want to make sure

51:27

Exactly. And somebody said, Oh, that's that's,

51:29

that's Ray, Ray's PO. And they're like,

51:32

alright , you know why

51:33

Ray Ray's house, I'm gonna check out Ray, gonna talk to his

51:35

mom and then I'm gonna walk out and I'm gonna

51:37

holler at him . I'm going to chop it up with him, you know?

51:39

And then it really gave me a sense

51:42

Of that. The church

51:44

has not pastoring our community, our

51:47

neighborhood , man, these deed boys, if they

51:49

don't know who I am, who's going to pass away

51:51

. Who's going to shepherd. Who's going to love them

51:53

into the kingdom, your church as a parish.

51:57

Exactly. This man . Right,

51:59

right. This is my neighborhood. So I want to know,

52:02

you know, I want to know who's slinging. I wanna

52:04

know who strolling. I want to know everybody, you

52:06

know, up here and I don't care. Yeah. You got my number.

52:09

Yeah. You know , uh , you know,

52:11

I gave this chick, she was on

52:13

the , on the street, you know, and I gave

52:15

him my car and I said, Hey, you know,

52:17

man, if there's anything I would do to help you, you know,

52:20

you let me know. And

52:22

one cat, you know, I , I dunno where she

52:24

went to some D and she kept the car.

52:27

She went to some spot, man wears a bunch of preaches.

52:30

And then the dude call me, he's like, yo Caufield

52:32

, man, what you're giving a whole year card for

52:34

it . N***a don't want to get in a hole , your car. And

52:36

I'm like, aye

52:38

. Aye . Aye .

52:40

Well , I didn't even think of it like that. I'm just looking at

52:42

a sister who was out there, man.

52:44

And she just needed some food and needed something to eat.

52:46

I mean, you know, she, ain't no high dollar, nothing , you know

52:48

, she like $5 to get a sandwich,

52:51

you know, a hot dog, you know what I mean? And

52:53

so I'm like, Hey, here's a $5 and look, Hey,

52:55

I can help you. You know, some other way.

52:57

Wasn't even thinking that way, man. And so

53:00

, uh, that man

53:02

was such a rich experience

53:04

for me. Uh, people would have

53:06

asked me, what's the difference between

53:08

EK Bailey and Tony

53:10

Evans, you know? And I would

53:12

tell him , man, just the opportunity, you

53:15

know , uh, you know, Tony man went

53:17

to Dallas, was embraced,

53:19

adopted by James Dobson and gene

53:21

Getz and other guys and

53:24

Bailey didn't have that. But you know, I would

53:26

tell him , man, it's , it's, it's , it's the difference

53:28

between uh, uh , uh, uh,

53:31

uh, uh, three button suit and a double

53:33

breasted suit. Yeah. It's the same material

53:35

. It's just a different, yeah, different peanuts , man.

53:37

It's just different pattern . So given

53:40

your , your, your education, your history

53:42

, uh, your background

53:44

and understanding of the neighborhood,

53:46

your main longevity in ministry

53:49

, you bought almost

53:51

at 40 years, right? Thereabouts,

53:54

40 years in terms of total

53:56

ministry next year, next year will be

53:58

four years. We got to have a big celebration

54:01

then. Yeah . Right. 40 , make

54:03

it 40. This is bad. That's

54:05

that senior citizen already. Yeah

54:07

, I know it is crazy. Yeah . Given

54:09

all of that and hearing

54:12

man, what we've , uh, what's

54:14

transpired over the last couple of months

54:16

, uh, really , uh,

54:19

systemic racism being brought to a

54:21

head , uh , through

54:23

man, just a tragedy and the sacrificial

54:25

death of all the hashtags,

54:28

of course. But I mean, namely our brother,

54:30

George Florida in this neighborhood , um,

54:34

where do we go from here ? So

54:39

I , I think , uh, there's a couple

54:41

of things. One , um,

54:45

I think we have to recognize

54:48

that the overwhelming majority

54:50

of white people are ignorant.

54:54

Um, and you can use that in

54:56

the classic sense of ignoring

55:01

or just simply not knowing. And

55:05

you know, it's, it's a challenge, man.

55:07

And I want people to think about this. It's

55:10

a challenge when

55:14

you are taught something

55:17

all your life and

55:19

then come to understand

55:22

that you've been taught a lie, you've

55:25

been taught. What's not true. And

55:28

that's part of the discovery

55:31

that white people are going through right now. And

55:35

they're not even fully awoke

55:37

yet. They're just scratching

55:40

the surface. They're

55:42

just, you mean,

55:44

black people really go through this and then of

55:46

course your white friends come

55:48

to you and say, man,

55:50

is that true? Why have you ever experienced

55:52

something like that? And you almost want to laugh and be like,

55:55

yeah, it was like, really? Are you serious?

55:58

Do you mind talking? Right. Would you mind

56:00

talking to us about it? You know? Uh

56:03

, and so I

56:05

think there's a , there's an educational

56:08

component and there is

56:10

now an

56:12

atmosphere of, okay,

56:15

we want to hear this. Um,

56:17

I think the other piece is there's

56:19

a generation that's coming millennials

56:24

and gen Z years in particular

56:27

who are educated and who

56:29

do know, and who have

56:31

a sense of conscious when you're talking about white

56:34

folk minorities. I'm

56:37

talking about both. I'm talking about both in

56:39

general and in general,

56:41

in general, I think. And

56:44

let me say, I think part of that is attributable

56:48

to , uh , online

56:52

and they've been able to look up and research and be educated.

56:56

I think the other piece that many,

56:59

many people are downplaying is

57:02

the role that hip hop is playing in this and

57:05

the exposure of a whole generation

57:08

of white people, similar

57:10

to those in the sixties

57:13

who were exposed to not

57:17

the temptations, what

57:19

they were exposed to the what's going

57:21

on, Marvin Gaye . And

57:24

they were exposed to the

57:26

we're winners, Curtis Mayfield,

57:29

right? That, that, that social consciousness

57:32

that the Gil Scott Heron, that

57:34

social consciousness, but

57:36

it never even

57:38

approach the size

57:41

of influence internationally

57:45

that you've seen with hip hop. True . You

57:47

know? And so that,

57:50

that's a piece man that has revealed

57:52

a whole lot and has brought

57:55

a sense of consciousness , uh,

57:57

to , I think all

58:00

generations, but especially to this white generation

58:04

of young people and that, and

58:07

I think you can't discount the role

58:09

that organizations like black lives

58:11

matters has played in

58:13

educating and training

58:16

and mobilizing, not

58:18

just saying to white people, you have

58:20

white privilege, but teaching

58:22

them what to do, what they were white privilege, you

58:25

know, you never saw a man.

58:28

Uh, you can watch the sixties in the videotapes

58:31

. You didn't see white people

58:33

at the front of the line taking hits no

58:35

true vivid

58:38

. Right , right, right, right.

58:42

Right. The white people were like at the back, you know,

58:44

man, they got white people in the front and

58:47

you got white people wearing black lives matter shirts.

58:49

I saw more white people wearing the shirts. Then,

58:53

then black people. I was like, Whoa.

58:56

I'm like, wow. And,

58:58

and this multiethnic

59:03

force that is saying, no,

59:06

you're going to have to deal with us. You

59:08

know? Uh, I

59:10

see , uh , a move that's happening. So

59:13

when you look at people like John Whitmire

59:16

and people like Rodney Ellis

59:19

and the like , uh, Rodney now

59:21

is County commissioner, right. Uh,

59:24

El Franco Lee passed away. But those

59:26

guys, man, you know, when you've

59:29

been in office 20,

59:31

30 years and

59:34

you're in your fifties or sixties,

59:37

that means you got elected when you were in your twenties

59:40

and early thirties. Right?

59:43

I mean, so, you

59:45

know, we looked at Lena Hilda [inaudible]

59:48

election at 28

59:50

as this, you know,

59:53

kind of misnomer. This is an outlier

59:56

and it was, and it was

59:58

unexpected. But

1:00:01

the generation of cats who are in now

1:00:03

who have been in office 30 years,

1:00:05

35 years, they got elected when they were young. And

1:00:08

so I think, I think what we're seeing now,

1:00:11

men with this young generation is

1:00:14

, um , this powerful

1:00:16

combination man of energy

1:00:20

and enthusiasm , uh,

1:00:23

energy and enthusiasm education

1:00:26

, uh , and,

1:00:29

and, and expertise that

1:00:32

for me is exciting. You

1:00:34

know? Uh, and

1:00:37

man, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to see what's what's

1:00:39

happening, what what's going on. So

1:00:42

to answer your question, here's what I see. I

1:00:44

think this is all almost like Maslov's

1:00:47

hierarchy of needs, okay

1:00:49

. Where this has to be approached

1:00:52

on multiple levels and

1:00:54

you have some basic

1:00:56

fundamental needs, very practical

1:00:59

things that need to be taken care of, like

1:01:02

addressing. If you're going to educate kids,

1:01:04

virtually addressing the digital

1:01:06

divide , um, you

1:01:09

know, addressing issues like

1:01:12

poverty and hunger and

1:01:14

, and those kinds of things. Those

1:01:16

are basic needs that

1:01:19

have to be met. But

1:01:21

then you also have to address

1:01:24

beyond the practical. You've got to address

1:01:27

policy issues that need to

1:01:30

be addressed. So it's

1:01:32

a combination of dealing

1:01:34

with qualified immunity, immunity

1:01:37

with police officers, but

1:01:39

also strategizing when

1:01:42

an officer terrorizes,

1:01:46

a kid, what

1:01:48

are , what's going to be our strategy now to

1:01:51

call for an internal affairs affairs

1:01:54

investigation. And

1:01:56

we're going to press this matter, and we're

1:01:58

not going to wait for you to kill a kid, but

1:02:00

we're gonna , we're going to jump on you when you pull

1:02:02

this kid over and the kid

1:02:04

is walking his dog and you ask him, what is he doing?

1:02:08

And he's walking his dog, or you

1:02:10

make a young man

1:02:12

coming home from middle school,

1:02:14

dump out his backpack. Cause you say , tell

1:02:16

him, he looks like a drug dealer and he's

1:02:18

walking home school that kind of

1:02:20

foolishness. We've got to address

1:02:22

the both and, and not either or,

1:02:24

and that , and that's what I'm hoping that we come

1:02:27

out of this conversation that

1:02:29

I think has been sparked by

1:02:32

George's murder. I'm not

1:02:34

discounting anybody else's death

1:02:37

, uh , because all of them were

1:02:39

part of this sum , total

1:02:42

that resulted in the straw, breaking

1:02:44

the camel's back. I

1:02:47

think it's important for us who we're fighting

1:02:49

to not argue amongst

1:02:51

ourselves over what is the

1:02:54

most important aspect and

1:02:56

to recognize that they're all important.

1:02:59

And we have to learn now how to coordinate

1:03:01

those efforts so

1:03:04

that we're addressing the lower level

1:03:06

needs. And the higher level needs

1:03:08

that we're engaged in both changing

1:03:11

practices, as well as

1:03:13

the longer fight

1:03:15

that it takes to change

1:03:17

policies and everything

1:03:20

in between. And how can we make sure

1:03:22

that wherever we need to join in

1:03:24

the fight that we're getting in the fight that everybody

1:03:26

may not March, what can I use

1:03:28

my voice and can I use my social

1:03:30

media platform? Can I use

1:03:32

my radio show? And can

1:03:34

I use my pulpit? Can you

1:03:36

use this broadcast? And all

1:03:39

of those things we understand are part

1:03:41

and parcel of what it's going to take to facilitate

1:03:44

the kind of change that we need to say in this community. Do

1:03:47

you fear that

1:03:50

a month, almost two months

1:03:53

after a George Florez

1:03:55

murder, that the

1:03:57

fervor and the emotion

1:04:00

that we saw and felt , uh,

1:04:03

do you fear that it could die down

1:04:05

or , or are you more hopeful than in some

1:04:08

of us? I think , I think , um,

1:04:10

I , my concern is that we

1:04:14

are experiencing in the black

1:04:16

community in particular , uh

1:04:19

, racial exhaustion , um,

1:04:22

because we have lived with it for so

1:04:24

long. And

1:04:27

I think there's always this hope that when

1:04:29

something is true and is proven

1:04:32

to be true, that people will

1:04:34

accept it and do something about it. And

1:04:37

what we are seeing now is, is tremendous

1:04:39

white lash that is coming

1:04:42

out of the

1:04:44

loss of white privilege or the identifying

1:04:47

of white privilege and

1:04:50

this understanding or failure

1:04:52

to understand what

1:04:55

white fragility is. I think

1:04:57

we have to define in this country one,

1:05:02

what is racism? Because

1:05:06

, um , if we don't properly

1:05:10

define it and we're all using the same

1:05:12

definition, then

1:05:15

we're not going to get anywhere in this argument.

1:05:18

Um , so when somebody sees affirmative

1:05:21

action as reverse racism,

1:05:25

instead of seeing it as an attempt to

1:05:27

reverse the effects of racism,

1:05:31

then we have a problem because

1:05:33

now you will quickly turn

1:05:35

victims into

1:05:38

victimizers and victimizers

1:05:40

into victims . True . Right. Um

1:05:42

, secondly, and this really

1:05:45

has to do more with the body of Christ. Are

1:05:47

we willing to call racism, sin?

1:05:51

Because if we don't call racism sin, then

1:05:53

we don't have a moral ground to deal with. So

1:05:57

then you end up with this idea that

1:05:59

America was not stolen, but it

1:06:01

was conquered. Right?

1:06:04

And, and you, you really

1:06:06

don't understand , uh,

1:06:09

that this issue of race

1:06:12

and sin around race,

1:06:15

didn't start in the Americas.

1:06:18

You know, this was, this was a new Testament

1:06:20

issue, right? This was a scripture

1:06:23

issue. Yeah. And so is

1:06:25

it sin? And then the third

1:06:27

issue is , uh,

1:06:29

again, I've , I've, I've

1:06:31

never heard a white person in person

1:06:33

admit to being a racist. And

1:06:36

I think I've only heard one in my entire lifetime

1:06:38

and this and this dude was like the

1:06:40

president of the KKK skinheads

1:06:43

and something else all at the same time.

1:06:45

And he called himself a racist, most

1:06:48

white people don't ever want to identify

1:06:50

themselves as a racist, even

1:06:52

if they are passive or active participants

1:06:55

and participators in white supremacy

1:06:58

and racism. So

1:07:00

here's what I'd tell white people. Are

1:07:03

you willing to be an anti racist ? And

1:07:06

that's the third question that they've got to answer. Are

1:07:08

you willing to be an antiracist so

1:07:11

that if I'm outside of your house

1:07:13

and I'm getting beat up by five races,

1:07:16

I don't want you sitting down in your house

1:07:19

talking about, you're not a racist because

1:07:21

you didn't come up and beat up on me. No,

1:07:24

I don't need you to passively sit by. I

1:07:26

need you to become an active participant

1:07:29

in doing and making

1:07:32

things, right. Are you willing

1:07:34

to become an antiracist

1:07:37

so that now you are on the battlefield

1:07:39

fighting the

1:07:41

injustices that we see and

1:07:44

what we're seeing is, and I think we're making headway

1:07:47

emotionally, because what we're seeing

1:07:49

white people and white

1:07:52

evangelicals doing now

1:07:55

is trying to throw

1:07:57

salt on the message because

1:08:00

of the organization. So they'll look at,

1:08:03

for example, an organization like black

1:08:05

lives matters, who

1:08:07

has become the catchall

1:08:10

for all people who want to protest.

1:08:15

And there are some

1:08:17

who are living a lifestyle that

1:08:21

evangelicals don't agree with.

1:08:24

Right? And so now what they're saying

1:08:26

is, well, you know what, we,

1:08:28

we're not going to accept the message because

1:08:31

we don't agree with how the messenger

1:08:33

is living as

1:08:35

if, whenever you deal with people

1:08:38

in the world, it's almost

1:08:40

like we forgot where missionaries, like

1:08:42

we, we find common ground with

1:08:44

whoever we , we can go to , uh,

1:08:47

to Tibet and find common ground. But we

1:08:49

can't find common ground with people who

1:08:51

are doing good work, no matter what we think

1:08:53

about their lifestyle. It's , it's almost

1:08:55

like we don't really want to do it. We

1:08:58

just gonna find right. We're going to find the shoes . So,

1:09:00

so for example, you, you

1:09:02

want, you want to support , uh

1:09:05

, a massage, Venus , uh,

1:09:07

a xenophobe, a

1:09:09

racist in the white

1:09:11

house. And you justify that because

1:09:14

you say he's pro-life right,

1:09:17

right. And you say you didn't elect him for moral

1:09:19

issues and you know, for,

1:09:22

for morality, but you want to cascade

1:09:25

cast the gate Clinton because he got a blow job in the

1:09:27

oval office. Yeah. Yeah.

1:09:29

And listen, he got to go, you

1:09:31

know? And it's like, but this dude is talking about grabbing women

1:09:33

in the crotch and forcing himself on women.

1:09:36

But you cool with that, right? Yeah

1:09:38

. It is crazy. It's, it's, it's a,

1:09:40

but, but again, go back

1:09:42

to this anti-racist argument,

1:09:45

I'm saying, come out to your house

1:09:48

and help me if you really love

1:09:50

me, don't say you're prolife

1:09:52

before birth. And in turn your back

1:09:54

on me after I'm born, you

1:09:57

know, my, my youngest , uh

1:09:59

, newest grandson was born

1:10:01

may the 28th. And I told

1:10:03

a group of white pastors, man, I

1:10:05

loved him before he was born. And

1:10:08

I'd have laid down my life for

1:10:10

his unborn life because

1:10:13

of the potential of who he is. But

1:10:16

once he was born, once his mother

1:10:18

gave birth to him, I didn't

1:10:20

love him less. I loved him

1:10:22

more. Right. Right.

1:10:25

If, if I would lay down my life before he

1:10:27

was born, you know, I'm gonna

1:10:29

lay down my life for him after

1:10:31

he was born, are you kidding me, Julia , you

1:10:33

had the joy of knowing him, man,

1:10:36

just [inaudible]

1:10:38

. And the truth of the matter isn't and I told some

1:10:40

white churches, this white pastors is , I

1:10:42

said, the truth of the matter is the

1:10:45

pro life movement was never about saving

1:10:47

black people. Cause we weren't aborting our babies.

1:10:50

Right. It was, it was about stemming the tide

1:10:54

of you practicing

1:10:56

self genocide against

1:10:58

your own race, which has resulted

1:11:00

in the Browning of America. Right.

1:11:03

And now it is irreversible. You

1:11:06

can't change it. Right? So

1:11:09

you going to build it because Latinos

1:11:11

on aborting their babies, you

1:11:13

know what I mean? That's not right. And

1:11:15

I'm talking about in general, right?

1:11:18

Not at all. And it wasn't until

1:11:20

we decided that we were going

1:11:22

to emulate the,

1:11:25

at the time majority culture that

1:11:28

we started doing them. So they build them in our neighborhoods.

1:11:30

And I told a couple of the white pastors, why don't y'all put planned

1:11:32

Parenthood in your neighborhood, make

1:11:35

it easily accessible to your kids. Why are you bringing

1:11:37

it over, get ours . Right. You

1:11:39

know? And so

1:11:41

, uh, those three questions,

1:11:44

man, I think, I think we have to ask

1:11:46

an answer. I believe

1:11:48

that the key to

1:11:51

this is really

1:11:53

the church. I don't think

1:11:55

we can get to the place of

1:11:58

change systemically

1:12:01

until we understand that

1:12:03

the systems that have been placed are

1:12:06

undergirded and have built their

1:12:08

foundation in the soil

1:12:10

of bad hermeneutics and

1:12:13

poor homiletics. And

1:12:15

so it's not until you understand

1:12:18

that. No, I am also created

1:12:20

in the image of God that

1:12:22

a Margo day is here. That

1:12:24

we're all from dirt. Right?

1:12:27

Right. We're all from dirt. And

1:12:29

you just moved a little further from the equator

1:12:33

and that dark can't come out

1:12:35

of white, white can only come out

1:12:37

of dark. True. Right. And

1:12:39

until you come to grips with that, man,

1:12:41

there was a guy Joel Gregory told

1:12:43

his story. Uh , there was

1:12:45

a , uh , uh, a white

1:12:48

Southern Baptist apologists named TB Maston

1:12:51

who Maston TB Maston in

1:12:54

the fifties, early

1:12:57

sixties wrote a book out of acts

1:12:59

. Um , and

1:13:02

the title of the book was of

1:13:04

one blood. And

1:13:07

this white guy talked

1:13:10

about all of us, the

1:13:13

entire human race coming

1:13:15

out of one blood man

1:13:18

. And he told Joe

1:13:21

Gregory of the hate

1:13:23

mail that he got , uh,

1:13:27

telling him he was wrong. And

1:13:30

he was a n****r lover and, and all of

1:13:32

these things, man. And he's just like, man, I'm just

1:13:34

excavating the texts , man. Wow.

1:13:37

You know, I'm just exit genus scientists at

1:13:39

work. Right. Just gonna tell you what it says.

1:13:41

You can take what here's , what take, what you want out

1:13:43

of it . And so on until

1:13:46

, uh , the church, the

1:13:48

white church owns

1:13:51

the ungodly message that it

1:13:53

has preached and taught for

1:13:55

years and

1:13:57

has since set silently

1:14:00

by never correcting

1:14:03

or redacting that message never

1:14:05

apologizing for that message. Uh,

1:14:08

until that happens , uh,

1:14:10

we're not going to see the change that

1:14:13

needs to occur, man.

1:14:16

Um, last couple of questions. Uh, you,

1:14:21

there, there are folk who would say, Hey

1:14:25

man, and this is black

1:14:27

and white. Uh , and whoever

1:14:30

else , uh , would say until

1:14:34

Jesus comes, we're not going to see

1:14:36

the full manifestation of the kingdom.

1:14:38

So why

1:14:41

do we put our efforts into this? Yeah.

1:14:47

So I think, I think there's a couple of things. One,

1:14:49

I hear the words of Jesus saying

1:14:51

occupy until I come that

1:14:54

, um, you

1:14:58

know, when, when the scripture says, without

1:15:03

God, we can do

1:15:05

nothing that

1:15:08

never excuses us to do nothing.

1:15:12

It just says what you do, you do

1:15:17

with God. And, and

1:15:19

for me, you

1:15:22

know, I think when we talk about speaking truth to power

1:15:25

and calling sin out, that's

1:15:27

why I initially said, man, it's

1:15:30

racist. Is racism a sin because

1:15:33

if it's a sin, then it's

1:15:35

a discipleship issue. Yeah.

1:15:38

You know what I mean? Like you can't, you know, it's

1:15:40

just like saying, you know , well, you

1:15:42

know , um, you know, we're not gonna talk

1:15:44

about domestic violence, you know what

1:15:47

you mean? Like if it

1:15:49

is brutalizing women beating

1:15:51

children, is that not a sin? Like,

1:15:54

do we not? Do we not see that as, as

1:15:56

a gospel issue, right.

1:15:58

We're going to wait to Jesus, come back to fix

1:16:01

it . And so then, you know, okay, why, why are we

1:16:03

, why are we preaching against anything

1:16:05

that's wrong? Right . You know , uh

1:16:07

, any sin for that matter, if

1:16:10

it's, if we're going to wait until Jesus comes back,

1:16:12

we have a responsibility why we're here

1:16:14

, uh , to do all that we can.

1:16:17

And I believe it's a sin issue.

1:16:19

I believe it's a discipleship issue.

1:16:22

Um, when we talk about evangelism and edification,

1:16:26

you've got to see it as a discipleship issue. When you had

1:16:28

, when you had , uh , Southern Baptist

1:16:30

deacons who

1:16:33

were simultaneously and preachers who

1:16:35

were simultaneously members of the KKK

1:16:38

who went to church on Sunday

1:16:40

and saying the great hymns of the church,

1:16:43

and then went out Sunday evening and

1:16:45

, and lynched a black man

1:16:47

or a black woman, you know,

1:16:50

that's a discipleship issue. Right

1:16:52

. You know, that's a kingdom issue.

1:16:55

Then that pastor was missing

1:16:57

a key component of helping his people

1:17:00

to see holistically that what they were doing

1:17:03

was wrong. And it was so, and

1:17:05

it was so ingrained that it was institutionalized

1:17:07

and it was part of it. And let me, you the church, and

1:17:10

let me tell you, what's so crazy about it. Now I've

1:17:13

talked to several white pastors who

1:17:16

in the wake of the George Floyd killing

1:17:18

felt some responsibility to say something

1:17:22

about injustice in this country.

1:17:25

Some of them have lost members. Some

1:17:28

of them have had members stand up in the

1:17:30

midst of a sermon and walk out and

1:17:36

it's like, okay, so

1:17:38

what kind of gospel have you been preaching? You

1:17:42

know what I mean? Like, like that

1:17:44

, but, but you really are seeing

1:17:46

a reaction to

1:17:49

truth. You

1:17:51

really seeing a reaction to truth. And

1:17:54

so I'm encouraging , um

1:17:57

, white pastors, see,

1:17:59

when you see me as less than human,

1:18:01

then you feel justified in treating me in

1:18:04

an inhumane way. Yeah. You

1:18:06

know, and , and even though you may not

1:18:08

say it , um,

1:18:11

you still thinking it, it's still

1:18:13

part of the fabric and fiber

1:18:15

of what you do. You know, when you

1:18:17

look at the law and order society and

1:18:19

the Pattie rollers, and you

1:18:21

look at other people like that. And

1:18:24

they, these are the precursors

1:18:27

to modern policing agencies. As

1:18:29

we see them the day whose

1:18:31

initial responsibility was

1:18:34

to capture slaves, bring

1:18:36

them back and

1:18:38

to capture freed slaves, even

1:18:42

after the massive patient proclamation and

1:18:44

bring them back. And

1:18:46

you had judges who were

1:18:48

paid $5 for every

1:18:51

freed slave that they would release,

1:18:53

but $10 if they send

1:18:55

them back to their plantations. So

1:18:57

you incentivize right.

1:18:59

Slavery in the judicial system. Yeah.

1:19:02

That's crazy. Right . And , and , and to realize

1:19:05

that we haven't man, and this is the

1:19:07

biggest , because peace , man, I want to

1:19:09

help your audience get, man, we

1:19:11

haven't come that far, man.

1:19:14

It seems like as far away, man, my

1:19:16

grandfather was born in

1:19:18

1898. He was 86

1:19:20

years old when he died 1898.

1:19:23

That dude, man, I love that brother,

1:19:26

man. I just loved that dude. Right. I

1:19:29

thought about it. He was born in 1890.

1:19:32

Hey, the emancipation proclamation

1:19:35

was signed in 1863,

1:19:37

right. January

1:19:40

1st, 1863. Which means what? He

1:19:43

shook the hands of

1:19:46

people who were slaves, man.

1:19:48

Yeah. So I shook the hand

1:19:51

of a man who shook the hand

1:19:53

of slaves. Wow. That's just

1:19:55

one generation removed. I mean,

1:19:58

I have my mother there, but I'm saying one generation

1:20:00

in terms of the shift, the hands of somebody

1:20:02

who was a slave, my great grandfather

1:20:05

was the product of slavery.

1:20:08

Right. Okay. Yeah . Yeah.

1:20:10

So he was older than my grandfather.

1:20:13

Okay. He was a product

1:20:15

of, of my, it

1:20:17

would have been my great, great grandmother

1:20:21

being raped by a white man . So

1:20:24

it's like, we haven't come that far,

1:20:26

man. So when we look at time,

1:20:29

we think in terms of years,

1:20:32

but we really need to think in terms of generations

1:20:36

and when you have those generations overlapping

1:20:40

and coinciding and

1:20:42

co-mingling, then

1:20:44

those ideologies get passed very,

1:20:46

very easily, very

1:20:48

easily. I told somebody just an

1:20:50

example here in Houston. I said,

1:20:52

you know, you hear people say , uh, uh,

1:20:54

Sunnyside, Texas. Okay

1:20:57

. Sunnyside , Texas. And you're like, man, why

1:20:59

did they say Sunnyside, Texas? You know, it's like,

1:21:02

it's Houston, Texas. You know why didn't say sunny side.

1:21:04

So I asked somebody, I said, do you know when Sunnyside

1:21:08

was annexed into the city of Houston?

1:21:10

1956. Wow.

1:21:15

1956. I was born in 61

1:21:18

principality . It was all city. Basically. It was,

1:21:21

it was, it was , uh, it

1:21:23

was what, the, what the County would call

1:21:25

, uh, an unincorporated

1:21:28

area. Yeah. Sunnyside texts

1:21:30

. Some of a mother areas. Right . Acres

1:21:33

home was an unincorporated area. It

1:21:35

was annexed into the city of Houston. Okay.

1:21:38

So when you got mail in 1956,

1:21:41

it went to Sunnyside, Texas. Wow.

1:21:44

Yeah. So it's not people, you know , just

1:21:46

trying to make up stuff. No, that's what it was called.

1:21:49

Uh , you know, you, you pass it

1:21:51

in third ward. Right? Right . I

1:21:53

passed it in third ward. I live in the tray . I live on Cleburne

1:21:56

street. Right. But

1:21:58

third ward hasn't been used as

1:22:00

a political boundary designation

1:22:03

for over a hundred years. Yeah,

1:22:05

true. Right. No , nothing

1:22:08

politically. They said third ward for

1:22:10

over a hundred years, man. But

1:22:13

we still have, I just rolled by sign third

1:22:15

ward, Texas, welcome third ward, Texas.

1:22:18

You know what I'm saying? So, so

1:22:21

what may change legally

1:22:25

does not change socially

1:22:28

in the same timeframe. True.

1:22:30

Right. And so we haven't come that far,

1:22:32

man. And that's the challenge that

1:22:35

I think we all need to understand. How

1:22:38

do we continue to push this discussion,

1:22:41

recognizing that

1:22:43

we've got to educate , um,

1:22:47

we , we've got to unlearn some people or some

1:22:49

stuff, man, and

1:22:51

I'm not just talking about white people. You know, we

1:22:54

gotta unlearn some black people too . Yeah,

1:22:57

man. Uh, uh,

1:23:00

man, I just, just, what does it mean

1:23:02

for, you know, no one talks

1:23:04

about this and you brought it up, what

1:23:07

does it mean for black people to,

1:23:10

to learn? What is it that we, you

1:23:12

would advise us to get , uh,

1:23:15

get busy learning? Yeah, I

1:23:17

think we've got, I think we have to get

1:23:19

busy , uh, reading the

1:23:21

, the sad part is , uh,

1:23:24

white people are ignorant of our history.

1:23:27

What's tragic is

1:23:29

we are ignorant of our own history. And

1:23:33

so we don't even have the ability

1:23:36

or the wherewithal to

1:23:38

stand on our own history

1:23:40

in terms of who we are as a people , um

1:23:43

, that we come from

1:23:45

a lineage of Kings and Queens.

1:23:48

And we come from a lineage of

1:23:51

scientists and mathematicians

1:23:53

and geniuses that that's who

1:23:55

we come from, that this

1:23:57

idea , um, that,

1:23:59

that white people have , have put out

1:24:02

and , and it's, and it's a lie that black

1:24:04

people are lazy, you know,

1:24:07

and we built this country, you know , how are

1:24:09

you going to call people that you put in slavery who

1:24:12

work for free for a hundred years, you go call

1:24:14

them lazy. You know , uh,

1:24:16

the fact that that all of us are criminals,

1:24:19

you know, this criminal element , uh

1:24:22

, that was helped , you know,

1:24:25

fueled and , and burned into

1:24:27

the memory of this country,

1:24:29

you know, by that horrific film

1:24:31

birth of a nation, you know, that

1:24:33

all black men are rape rapists and

1:24:36

savages and animals, and we've seen

1:24:38

it perpetuated, you

1:24:40

know , uh , man, it's hard for me to even watch

1:24:42

certain things now, you know, I mean, you know, and

1:24:45

I mean , I ain't watching, I can't watch Tarzan.

1:24:47

You know what I mean? I mean, you know, I

1:24:49

mean, you know how how's a white man swinging through

1:24:51

the jungle, you know, none

1:24:54

of the black folk in there sophisticated, none

1:24:56

of us know anything. Right. Um

1:24:59

, same thing with native Americans, you know, you

1:25:01

know, Cowboys and Indians, you know, no

1:25:03

man I'm playing the Indian and

1:25:06

we going to scalp y'all I ain't playing, you know

1:25:08

what I mean? Like , you know, but,

1:25:10

but those kinds of things , um,

1:25:13

you know, the , the,

1:25:16

the, the, the false

1:25:19

notion that we are ignorant

1:25:21

that our , our children can't learn,

1:25:24

you know, when we had our

1:25:27

, uh, elementary

1:25:30

school, our charter school, the last

1:25:32

year that we went existence, our third

1:25:34

graders outscored

1:25:37

every third grade cohort

1:25:39

in a 50 mile radius around

1:25:41

Houston. And that's what, that's what the commissioner

1:25:44

from tea said, wow. I

1:25:46

said that to an educator . They said, well, that's

1:25:48

just because you didn't have that many students. And

1:25:50

that's just, and I was like, can you give

1:25:52

our kids credit? Right . But can you

1:25:54

just give him some love, like, you

1:25:56

know, because here's the problem with

1:25:59

less kids. That means our kids

1:26:01

had to do that much better. Cause you couldn't just

1:26:03

blend them in. Right. They

1:26:05

had to do that much better. But

1:26:08

again, it's that

1:26:10

misnomer that our kids can't learn.

1:26:13

Right. I was on a call prior to

1:26:15

this one. And, you know,

1:26:17

we were talking about the,

1:26:20

the, the, the clear

1:26:22

evidence that our children have been undereducated

1:26:26

since Brown vs

1:26:28

the board of education. Um,

1:26:33

and what what's been

1:26:35

interesting is, you

1:26:37

know, my father, I said earlier, it was from Alabama.

1:26:40

So there were three men mantras in our, in

1:26:42

our household. Failure's not an option

1:26:46

mediocrities unacceptable. And

1:26:48

you gotta be twice as good as white people. Right?

1:26:52

Not , he never told us and never

1:26:54

told me I was, I was twice

1:26:57

as good as them, better than them,

1:27:01

but that I had to be twice as good. So

1:27:03

that if my resume went across

1:27:05

a desk and

1:27:07

a white man's resume, went across

1:27:10

a desk, my resume couldn't

1:27:12

be as good as his and

1:27:14

I would get consideration, not the

1:27:16

world that we live in my resume better be twice

1:27:18

as good. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

1:27:21

But post Brown

1:27:25

versus the board of education, post

1:27:27

segregation, we

1:27:29

were educated by

1:27:31

the descendants of our oppressors, who

1:27:35

said, failure is

1:27:37

expected. You ought

1:27:39

to be grateful for mediocrity, and

1:27:42

you're not half as good as I am. Right.

1:27:45

And so everything that propelled

1:27:48

us and promoted us to

1:27:52

produce more doctors, lawyers,

1:27:55

engineers, per

1:27:58

capita nurses,

1:28:00

teachers pre

1:28:03

desegregation, was

1:28:06

absent after

1:28:09

desegregation. And

1:28:12

here's the example I give. And I don't

1:28:14

know what people would feel about it, but I

1:28:17

think this is true. You know, what

1:28:20

would have happened to the Jewish race

1:28:24

if after world war

1:28:26

two, they turned

1:28:28

the education of their children over

1:28:30

to the descendants of Nazi Germany. Yeah.

1:28:36

That that's, I mean,

1:28:38

what , that's a great analogy. What would they

1:28:40

have been told? They would have been told that

1:28:42

the Holocaust was wasn't that bad,

1:28:45

right? There was some Jews that actually

1:28:48

did better after the Holocaust.

1:28:50

The Holocaust was a figment of the imagination.

1:28:53

You need to just let it go. You

1:28:56

need to just forgive and forget about

1:28:58

it. You know, you got to move forward now

1:29:00

, man, we're not going to put our

1:29:02

narrative in your hands. We're not going to

1:29:04

allow you to teach our history.

1:29:07

We're going to teach our own history.

1:29:09

We're going to take the Shamar

1:29:12

seriously. We're going to sit

1:29:14

and we're going to instruct our

1:29:16

children in the ways we're going to tell

1:29:19

our children and our grandchildren,

1:29:22

what these stones mean. We're

1:29:24

not going to let you teach our children.

1:29:26

The problem is we turn the education

1:29:29

of our children over to the

1:29:31

wives, the mothers,

1:29:33

and the grandmothers of

1:29:36

our oppressors. And

1:29:39

then we wonder why we

1:29:42

are getting what we're getting in terms of

1:29:44

our children. And while we can

1:29:46

point to some outliers

1:29:49

who were able to survive that

1:29:52

hostility, you know, I

1:29:54

think about man, that little

1:29:56

rock nine, I'm like, man, how

1:29:58

could man, how did, how can you get educated,

1:30:01

man, James Meredith, how

1:30:03

can you go into the university of Mississippi,

1:30:05

man? How can you even concentrate

1:30:08

when you being spit on and

1:30:10

, and talked about man and called out

1:30:12

of your name, I go , are you serious? I mean,

1:30:14

it took a level of intestinal

1:30:17

fortitude and strength that

1:30:19

I don't even know if we have present in

1:30:21

this generation, man, because

1:30:24

you know, those people had a level of,

1:30:27

of not just intellectual

1:30:30

ability, but emotional strength

1:30:33

to be able to survive man, through

1:30:35

that kind of hostility. And so

1:30:38

man, w we've we've got , we've got to read

1:30:40

our own story. We've got to write our own

1:30:43

story. Just like you're doing on this

1:30:45

platform. We've got to tell our own story

1:30:47

and tell it to whoever will

1:30:50

listen. And if nobody wants to

1:30:52

listen and tell it for ourselves, right, man,

1:30:55

this is, this

1:30:57

has been an amazing time,

1:30:59

man. I, I, I've grown

1:31:01

, uh, just from this conversation

1:31:04

and just want to thank you, man. Just

1:31:06

, uh, for man, your

1:31:09

charity, your time. Uh

1:31:11

, man, thank the Lord for man.

1:31:13

Just the experiences he's placed you through

1:31:16

the education he's given you man.

1:31:18

And uh , the 19 that man just

1:31:20

comes through. Every time you, you

1:31:23

put your mind to something, man, just thank

1:31:25

you. Uh , in general, man, when

1:31:27

man, I'm honored to be with you, man, proud

1:31:30

of you and the work that you're doing. And you

1:31:32

know, I think we just keep on fighting that good fight,

1:31:34

man. Vernon. John said, if you see a good fight,

1:31:36

get in it. And I always add, if you

1:31:38

don't see a good fight start one, man. So

1:31:40

, um , if I, if I don't see a good

1:31:42

one, I'm going to start a good one then . Well

1:31:45

thank you for raising this up, man. I

1:31:48

appreciate you, man.