0:10

Alright , I'm here with pastor Chris Clemons,

0:13

the pastor of life church

0:15

in pair LAN homeless,

0:17

Shaquille O'Neal uh,

0:20

uh, man , uh, pastor Clemons . How

0:23

are you today? Yeah , I'm doing great

0:25

brother. Good to see you . Cool . If

0:27

you would, I'd just like for you to introduce

0:29

yourself the way you would and then

0:32

we'll go from there. Oh

0:34

man. You know, look here

0:36

bad . I'm a human being

0:39

called by God to do stuff beyond his

0:41

capacity dependent the whole way through . So

0:48

you may , man , I'm going to get

0:50

into this story a little bit,

0:54

man. Where are you from? Where'd you grow

0:56

up from Houston, Texas. Uh,

0:58

my early years were

1:01

in the Kashmere gardens area of

1:03

Houston. Uh , we moved out

1:05

to the suburbs when I was about six

1:07

years old and the second

1:10

grade, the only black

1:12

kid in the class. Oh man. Yeah.

1:14

And uh , one, one black girl , uh

1:17

, was in the class and knowing it's all get

1:19

out. Uh, and

1:22

that's kind of where my experience

1:24

, uh, growing up. Um,

1:27

the neighborhood was predominantly white. Um,

1:30

and you know, as we got closer to high

1:32

school, it started to get a little

1:35

bit more diverse , uh,

1:38

out there in the, all the district North

1:40

part of Houston. And

1:43

, uh, that was my, my experience.

1:46

I remember one of my , just a funny story.

1:49

Uh, when we moved in to the house

1:51

, uh, we had a couple of neighbors, couple

1:53

kids down the street and , uh, I

1:56

re I really hadn't had

1:58

any experiences with, with, with

2:00

white people to that point in time.

2:03

And a little boy came over, we've

2:06

gone play in a sprinkler and

2:08

, uh, he took off his shirt and I saw all

2:11

this green stuff kind of like

2:13

hunters and

2:15

it's scared me, man. And I went and I wouldn't ask

2:17

my mom, my mom was a nurse. I said

2:20

, what's wrong with that boy. See

2:22

how they agreeing stuff. She's saying that isn't correct.

2:36

Correct. And , uh , man, that was the beginning

2:38

of many of those types of experience. And

2:41

so you finished high school

2:43

in the Aldin area? Yes.

2:47

Astronaut high school. Oh, you went to us and I

2:50

have so many as a house

2:52

, as it has produced a lot

2:54

of greatness , uh , man

2:57

, uh , uh, from

2:59

Eisenhower ,

3:00

Uh, you went to the university of Houston, right?

3:03

Yes. Okay . Well, not

3:06

in that.

3:07

Okay. Tell us, tell , tell us

3:09

Directly went to the university

3:12

of Texas , uh, on

3:15

a partial engineering scholarship

3:18

and was completely irresponsible

3:21

at the university of Texas

3:23

As , as, as people tend to be man

3:26

, a great town

3:28

This year was, it was too good. And so

3:31

that's how I found myself back

3:33

to Houston and enrolling in university.

3:39

So you majored in chemistry

3:42

and why chemistry?

3:44

Uh, cause I had started the chemical

3:47

engineering , um, because

3:49

of the classes and how they're situated.

3:51

It was going to take me a little longer time to graduate

3:54

with the engineer. So I downshifted

3:56

the chemistry to get out of school.

4:01

And then all this time

4:03

, uh , when did you, when

4:05

did your role in the church become

4:08

more prominent in your life?

4:11

Sure. Um, cite

4:15

, it was towards the end of the

4:17

college years. Uh,

4:20

towards the, I guess middle nineties,

4:23

I was in a church in, in acres,

4:25

home Houston, calm

4:27

monitor that Fisher and

4:30

a family just basically

4:33

chose to kind of adopt me and mentor

4:36

me. And they were very active

4:39

in the church and that's

4:41

kind of where I learned my

4:43

leadership and uh,

4:46

grew tremendously and

4:48

MFA. And so I started out there.

4:52

Um, he asked me to be his assistant Sunday school

4:54

director. I had no idea about any of that

4:56

stuff and uh,

4:59

say yes. And from that I was an assistant

5:01

director of a new young adult ministry

5:03

and I was the one that helped organize it

5:05

because of what I learned

5:08

from the Sunday school role

5:10

with , uh, it was the Russell's family that

5:12

adopted. And then from

5:14

there I was the youth minister

5:17

at the church and you got to call

5:19

and go full time. Um , that's

5:21

my job as a lab manager

5:24

and enrolled in seminary full time and

5:27

God facilitated my

5:30

move to the good hope missionary Baptist

5:32

church where I became the

5:34

youth pastor all

5:37

group , pastor the utility.

5:42

I remember my time at Goodhope

5:44

. I was like, man, if there's a question that needs

5:47

to be asked, no matter how

5:49

big or small , uh, I,

5:51

I went to pass the Clements

5:54

of man and I always have this joke. I

5:56

tell you , I don't know if I've ever told you. I was like,

5:58

man, you know, in ministry,

6:00

you got parents pass the Coalfield

6:02

was my dad as the Clemons

6:04

was my mom . I come to pass the Clemons

6:06

with everything. I came

6:08

with some of the critical things

6:11

to my dad, but usually I came

6:13

to pass the Clemens . And so man,

6:15

it's , uh , it's, it's been an honor

6:18

and a pleasure to serve with you now.

6:21

Um, w w what, what

6:23

made you move from saying, Hey, I'm

6:25

a , I'm a Christian , uh

6:27

, I'm at a church to saying, man, I

6:30

want to be a, a,

6:32

well, what most people would formally described

6:35

as a minister.

6:36

Yeah, it wasn't a logical thing.

6:39

Um , brother, I know, I know it sounds mystical

6:42

and magical when we talk about

6:44

a calling, but it's sort of like a

6:46

realization of

6:49

truth. Uh, I

6:51

was again, assistant director

6:53

to Sunday school. I would teach Sunday school. That

6:55

was the assistant director of our young adult ministry.

6:58

And , um, so teaching

7:00

speaking, I would do that as that role

7:02

, uh , what call for and

7:05

in a black church, if a black man starts

7:07

to speak on a microphone,

7:09

if he's halfway articulate, he

7:12

conjugate some of his verbs . Absolutely.

7:15

They're going to label preacher on it . They're going to want

7:17

to draft them into being Reverend such

7:19

. And I was

7:21

resistant to that. I'm

7:23

like, no, you know, I can do what

7:25

I do. Um , just

7:27

like anybody else speak. And

7:30

you know, I need a burning Bush type

7:32

experience that I was going to have to really

7:34

get a hold of me and

7:37

I'm open it. Wasn't one of those things

7:39

where I like, I don't want to,

7:42

but it was a mindset of not

7:44

to , because you say so, yeah , it's

7:47

got to come from that . And then it was

7:49

out . And I was reading about

7:52

Elijah , you know , when he was writing and fearful

7:55

of , of jazz a bale and, you know, God had him

7:57

hiding the Clift

8:00

of the mountains and , and , and God

8:02

passed by and you know,

8:04

he wasn't in the fire

8:06

and he wasn't in the equate

8:09

and that whisper came and it was just like, as

8:11

I was reading, it was like a real

8:13

deal. It wasn't audible, but

8:15

it was just this strong

8:19

sense of conviction of

8:22

Chris. You're already doing it, but

8:24

wasn't one of those things I need

8:27

you to start doing. I

8:29

just want you to continue doing

8:31

it. And brother, I , man, I broke down

8:33

and that's where it started.

8:36

So , uh, there's segue

8:38

. So now , um, you

8:41

, uh, you

8:44

believe good hope you begin

8:46

to , uh , plant a church

8:49

in bare land, Texas

8:51

pear land. Texas is a little

8:54

different than Houston,

8:56

Texas. You want to describe pear

8:58

land. I know you are the expert

9:01

on all things bare land.

9:02

Oh man, I wouldn't say that, but

9:04

, uh, it's definitely

9:07

suburbia. Um, and

9:10

especially at the time and which,

9:12

again, this was another call to go

9:14

to barrel . It wasn't something that was on my

9:17

radar. Uh, I

9:20

did have on my heart , uh

9:23

, to bring people together , uh

9:25

, through the gospel and

9:28

to promote that whatever community

9:31

God would have me to

9:33

be in. And so

9:35

apparently it is a suburb of suburb

9:38

, uh, definitely upper middle class

9:40

when it comes to the , uh

9:42

, income, but extremely

9:45

diverse in population.

9:48

And , uh, it's almost

9:50

almost as if you were to cut up

9:52

the pie on the color

9:54

palette, almost being

9:57

evenly distributed. Uh, and

10:00

so, you know, Houston is the most diverse city

10:02

in the United States and

10:04

apparently in has to be the

10:07

one of, if not the most diverse

10:10

sub community, community of Houston.

10:14

Um, and, and so that's where

10:16

I am. Uh, it's a mixture

10:19

of everything out here and

10:21

you gotta have some tradition and none tradition.

10:23

Yeah. So have you , uh,

10:26

w what does it take to be

10:29

a black pastor in a diverse community

10:31

to you,

10:35

Man? That's a great question , uh,

10:38

is, is it's

10:40

not easy and not easy in the sense

10:43

of not, not necessarily

10:45

, uh, any type

10:47

of external thing

10:49

per se, but

10:52

, uh, you know,

10:54

striking, I

10:56

guess, a balance not losing who

10:58

you are, but

11:01

also trying to reach people.

11:04

And so that whole idea of calming

11:06

all things so that some might be safe

11:09

, you become all things, but at

11:11

the same time, you can't lose who you are.

11:15

And so there's a , there's a struggle there, there's

11:17

a , there's a places , um,

11:19

some crossroads that happen when

11:22

that's fleshed out. And

11:24

so I think that's probably been

11:26

the most challenging thing and

11:29

especially bringing other people along

11:31

in that process.

11:33

So flesh that out for me, when you say a

11:36

challenge or struggle, I

11:38

mean, what do you mean? Uh , for instance?

11:42

Sure. So I mean,

11:44

the stuff that's happening right now , uh,

11:47

you know, the, the , this

11:50

unity that we have, not

11:52

just in the of race, but it's

11:54

in so many ways, there's so much division.

11:58

And so as a pastor, part

12:00

of your role as a peacemaker, right

12:03

, let's start a peacemaker formation

12:05

all this up subs of God , all

12:07

of a sudden . Yeah. And so you're a

12:10

peacemaker, first of all, trying to reconcile

12:12

people to God. And then of course , uh

12:14

, with one another, how

12:17

do you do that? Do you do

12:19

that as a Democrat and

12:23

part of town is highly Republican. Um,

12:27

how do you do that with small stuff when it

12:29

comes to music , uh

12:32

, what you post and forward on social

12:34

media? Um, at the same

12:36

time you have, you

12:39

know, especially in my situation, if a good

12:41

portion of your core

12:44

group has a bit,

12:46

that's on the other side of the fence, how

12:50

do you reach and not alienated

12:52

at the same time? And

12:54

so even little things like music, you

12:56

know, how do you

13:00

formulate the worship

13:02

set so that

13:04

the people who are with you don't leave and

13:06

at the same time that people who aren't with

13:09

you might not. And

13:12

, uh , it is so is , is

13:14

that an easy thing? You know, and

13:16

some people they're just like, I'm just going to be who I

13:18

am type thing. And

13:20

, uh, whatever I like, that's what I'm going to do.

13:23

I understand that. And I don't think

13:25

there's anything wrong with that. Um,

13:28

but God has kind of shaped me

13:31

to try to go after, you

13:33

know, the one if gonna

13:35

leave the 99. And

13:38

, uh , that's just my bit , so

13:40

I'm of the mindset, man. I don't, we , we

13:42

did, we've done worship in Spanish

13:45

and I might be one of two people

13:47

in the congregation that can

13:51

read a little, I want to say speak, I could

13:53

read some spans , but

13:56

, uh , that's just been the mindset.

13:59

And , uh, uh,

14:02

you know, you talked a little bit about the times

14:05

that we're in , uh, you,

14:07

you heard and

14:09

saw some of the things that have happened

14:11

, um, to

14:13

members of , uh,

14:16

the local Houston community, particularly with

14:18

Georgia , Florida, or some of your reactions

14:20

as you were , uh, watching

14:23

and witnessing some of those events.

14:25

Well, you know, of course his death

14:28

was a devastating

14:31

, uh, basically

14:33

trying to get emotional now, really thinking

14:35

about it. Uh, I

14:38

know with like the days after,

14:41

like I cried every day , um

14:43

, just thinking

14:46

about it and I was at a series

14:49

a at the time called

14:51

, uh, from discouraged to

14:53

encourage. And

14:56

I remember that Wednesday , um , after

14:58

his murder of really just praying,

15:01

just real frankly, the guy's a God , I'm in his

15:03

series, you got me in this series and I'm discouraged

15:07

and I need you to encourage

15:10

me so that I can

15:12

encourage a B . And , and thankfully

15:14

he did answer that prayer, the affirmative,

15:16

he encouraged me to activate it and that same day,

15:19

but , um, it was definitely

15:22

a very emotional time.

15:26

Um, and, and especially

15:28

in the immediate aftermath , uh,

15:30

you know, it was very tender. And so, you

15:32

know, I wasn't as necessarily pastoral

15:35

and responses

15:38

and comments. Uh,

15:42

and I don't say that to brag about

15:44

it, but just sharing

15:46

with the honest reality. Yeah , yeah.

15:49

Uh , but yeah, it was, it was , uh, I

15:52

was, I was hurt. I was angry. Uh

15:55

, you know, and of course it was everything that led up to

15:57

that, you know , um, with our bigger

16:00

behind Taylor , uh, even

16:02

Chris Cooper and , and , and the central

16:04

park incident, you know, all that,

16:07

It was like compounding very quickly,

16:11

almost weekly. Yeah .

16:12

Yes. And it was , you know

16:14

, and it is largely because of ignorance, you know, the whole

16:16

stuff with, you know, we were on, I think that started

16:19

what in February, and it's just,

16:21

we didn't know same thing with Ahmad

16:23

. We just didn't know. But like you say that the

16:25

timing, I guess, as things was being

16:27

expressed was , was

16:30

very quick and sequential. And

16:33

, uh, and so all of that, I think

16:35

fed into the emotion , uh

16:37

, that I , uh , Hmm

16:39

.

16:40

So , um, through

16:44

the process of processing

16:46

through your pain , um,

16:51

and what are some of the things that you did know

16:54

this would be helpful for some folks? What

16:56

are some of the things you did to kinda , uh,

16:59

heal, I guess, from, from

17:01

that trauma that you , you experienced

17:04

?

17:04

Sure, sure. I mean, I shared

17:06

one thing, I know it sounds so generic

17:09

and cliche, but I , you

17:11

know, afraid , um , uh, literally,

17:14

right. And I mean, you

17:17

know, [inaudible] and everything else,

17:19

you know, it wasn't, it wasn't

17:21

a lay me down to sleep. Sorry,

17:24

prayer. Um,

17:27

Yeah . So , uh , you, you say

17:29

prayer and man, I've experienced

17:31

people who almost, and

17:33

I'm talking about Christians who

17:35

almost , uh, not

17:38

laugh, but almost dismiss

17:41

the notion that

17:44

we ought to pray. Not because prayer isn't

17:46

good or just, I

17:49

don't know if it's a feeling of , uh , uh,

17:53

I'm tired. Oh

17:55

, he's not listening, or he's not hearing. What

17:57

would you say to those people in admin ? How

18:00

do you get back to

18:02

prayer?

18:03

Sure. Um, part

18:06

of the reason they feel

18:08

that way is there's a feeling

18:11

from their perspective that it doesn't work.

18:14

And the reason they may feel

18:16

that it doesn't work because they have experienced

18:19

a time when they gave

18:21

it a shot and they did

18:23

not get the response that they desire

18:25

, or maybe from their perspective, they didn't get any

18:28

response . And so, especially

18:30

in that's a personal experience.

18:33

And then just in, in general experiences

18:35

with these type of tragic , you hear the same

18:37

thing, Hey, we got to pray like where we keep

18:39

praying. And we

18:41

don't see the changes

18:43

that we desire

18:46

to see about what we pray and

18:49

, and what I guess my response

18:51

to that when, when

18:54

I pray, I don't see

18:56

it as a tool

18:59

to get what I want. Um,

19:03

it is an expression of my relationship

19:06

with God, whether or not he

19:08

changes my circumstance.

19:11

He is my father and

19:13

I seek him for everything. And

19:15

I go to him. I mean, you, you know, you use

19:17

, uh, the analogy earlier

19:20

now. I appreciate it . You know, as far as who you

19:22

went to , uh, in,

19:24

in your ministry and it's

19:26

the same thing. Um, I

19:29

think, you know, I can't think about

19:31

not going to him , um,

19:35

and, and circumstances,

19:37

and especially in times

19:39

in which I am distressed, but

19:42

that's not the only time I go to. And

19:46

, uh , the other thing I would add

19:48

to that is not just prayer.

19:51

That is an expression of my relationship,

19:54

but there are things that facilitate that relationship.

19:57

And one of which is I genuinely

19:59

try to do what I think he wants me to do.

20:04

Um, and I have witnessed , um,

20:07

the benefit of seeing

20:09

him affirm , um,

20:12

what he calls me to do. And so

20:14

it encourages me to do more. And

20:17

so it sort of feeds into

20:19

a, let me be faithful here, let

20:21

me pray more here. Cause

20:24

man, I he's

20:26

going to do something and I'm good

20:28

with whatever he does.

20:31

You , you honed in on something that, I mean, it's

20:33

striking me. So basically you're saying , um,

20:38

you know, obeying him

20:40

in what we would seemingly call the little

20:43

things, kind of leads

20:45

to more of a , uh , and

20:47

then seeing him work through those little

20:49

things, kinda grows my faith and

20:52

to just into trusting him. And I, I

20:54

think that I don't, I maybe

20:57

something in my own mind has just kind

21:00

of clicked where , and the things that the

21:02

Lord has asked me to do. Very small thing that

21:04

I think here too , for this date I have. Uh

21:06

,

21:08

And it's true. That's all of us. I don't want you to think

21:11

that , you know, I check every box every day.

21:14

Um , that's not the case. What

21:17

I try to do is respond

21:19

to every check box . So,

21:21

so part of that is, you know, repentance

21:24

when I don't check a check box , so

21:27

it's still relationship and that's still

21:29

faith on this. Cause that's what he calls me to do

21:31

when I am disobedient. Um,

21:34

but at the same time, when

21:37

you get a sense of the things that he

21:39

calls you to do, let's say it's one out of the three

21:42

and you're moving in that direction. There

21:45

is sort of a spiritual momentum

21:47

I got at the same time. You will experience some

21:49

resistance by the enemy

21:51

at the same time, but what God

21:53

does encourage is you so much more than

21:55

what the devil does discouraged. And

21:58

I mean, that's why I've given my life to this

22:01

man. I was like I said, I was lab manager, you

22:03

know, financially becoming

22:05

a pastor. That's not the move. Right.

22:10

You know what I'm talking about?

22:13

If you want to make some money,

22:15

don't, don't do this job. Even

22:17

the people you think are making money, they

22:20

ain't making money. Yeah .

22:21

Yeah . I mean, you know, and

22:24

especially if you're going to do it the right way, now you

22:26

can be deceptive than anything and,

22:28

and , and get a dollar. But if

22:31

you call yourself trying to do

22:34

right by God, this , you only

22:36

do this because he called up

22:39

front . Uh , but I

22:42

have made those leaks . That was a leap, just

22:44

making that call , giving up , um,

22:46

a career, you

22:49

know, security. I put that in quotes

22:51

, um , in the traditional

22:53

sense to , uh, take

22:56

on that call, to proclaim the gospel

22:58

and then doing it again to uproot

23:00

my family, sell my house, to move

23:03

to a community that

23:06

never really known before. Uh,

23:09

you know, you get to see amazing

23:11

things as you , as you take those steps of faith

23:14

that he calls you to. It's

23:16

a qualifier.

23:17

Okay . Yeah. Uh,

23:20

speaking of , um, leaps

23:23

of faith, it has been

23:25

apparent just in my

23:27

observation, that there's

23:30

a big divide as

23:32

to whether

23:35

these issues of race

23:38

and ethnicity are

23:41

things that the church

23:44

should be tackling. I

23:47

th I've seen the divide of course vary

23:50

between. I

23:52

mean, you may not agree with this characterization

23:54

white church and black church I've seen, I've

23:57

also seen the divide within black

23:59

church or conservative

24:01

people say, Hey, we need you

24:03

or minority churches, more

24:06

conservative. He would say, Hey, we need to preach

24:08

that Bible, which y'all doing

24:11

it . You know, with

24:13

this whole range of things is happening. Can

24:15

you respond if

24:19

there is warrant and, you know,

24:22

biblically to the

24:25

, the mandate to even respond

24:27

, uh , to issues like

24:29

this?

24:30

Sure. Uh, we,

24:34

and I'm speaking of the church, universal

24:38

is called , um

24:40

, by the Lord to be the city

24:42

on the Hill, right. To

24:45

be that light , uh,

24:48

not covered, but shining in

24:50

the room , uh , this , the

24:52

salt of the earth and

24:55

what God has done and the intention of what

24:57

he's done in redeeming

24:59

people before he would deems the world is

25:01

to give them a preview of

25:04

that eternal life. And

25:08

so the church that should be its aim

25:10

, uh , we should be the trailer right

25:13

back when we could go to movies at the theater , uh,

25:20

you know, to trailers would come out to

25:22

excite you. Um

25:24

, it wasn't the whole story. It

25:26

was a glimpse of the story and

25:28

made you want to experience

25:32

the story and that's what the church

25:35

should do. So in regard

25:37

to , uh, racism

25:40

or our , any issue that

25:43

doesn't look like heaven , it's,

25:46

it's the church's job to

25:49

at minimum , uh,

25:51

emulate what that eternal

25:54

life looks like. And to also

25:57

express the ministry of Christ,

25:59

which extends that life

26:01

to people who don't have that life . And

26:04

so in our community, it should

26:06

be an effort to try to facilitate

26:09

a taste of that experience. And

26:11

when it comes to racism and

26:14

division, look at how the church

26:16

started, right? You

26:20

got 120 Jews in a room

26:23

and the Holy spirit come , and

26:26

what does the Holy spirit do? Enables

26:29

them to speak the things

26:31

of God, not in Aramaic.

26:36

We can get all the Jews to come into the

26:38

room, but

26:40

in every language that happen

26:42

to there in Jerusalem

26:45

for Pentecost. And

26:47

so you not only have Jews, but you have

26:49

every Gentile, Prosser life . And

26:52

so you got people who actually have,

26:55

they never were from Judith. Cause

26:57

they talked about, we hear them saying the things of God

26:59

in our native thought , right? So I

27:01

didn't grow up speaking Aramaic. So

27:04

for whatever reason, I've come

27:06

to believe in the God of the Jews.

27:08

And that's why I'm here, but that's not my

27:11

culture. And

27:13

so it went from 120 people to 3000

27:16

and it was at least

27:18

multiethnic on day one.

27:21

Yeah. On day one,

27:24

They want . And so how

27:26

can we be comfortable

27:29

, um, with

27:32

either disunity or

27:34

sense of division

27:37

in the church? That's artificial, let

27:39

me put it that way. I don't have

27:41

a problem with a church

27:44

reflecting its community and it in

27:46

a homogenous community. Didn't , that's what

27:48

it looked like. But

27:50

if it , isn't not in a homogenous

27:52

community, it ought to reflect his community.

27:56

And uh , if it don't,

27:58

if it does not, there's some

28:00

artificial back that is definitely

28:03

not super net . Cause we already

28:05

see the model of how I started

28:08

and the end of the book tells us had in

28:10

every nation. And so

28:15

definitely not God's will.

28:16

So , uh , some people would say, okay,

28:19

you're right. But we do that

28:21

by preaching the gospel. What

28:24

would be your response?

28:26

I would agree with them. You preach

28:28

the gospel, all of that away. Sometimes you

28:30

speak, I don't remember who said it, it wouldn't

28:32

be first. You might know better, but,

28:35

but it's an everything. Um,

28:38

it's in what we do and how we communicate,

28:40

how we love our neighbor . And

28:43

so, yeah, no, it's, it's not just

28:45

, uh , preaching

28:47

the gospel. I think ultimately

28:49

you will preach in a sense of proclaim

28:52

the gospel, but you exemplify

28:54

the gospel as well.

28:57

Hmm . I mean , I think those

29:00

words are going to be helpful for some people because

29:03

you know, we've

29:06

kind of characterize the work

29:09

that , uh, you

29:11

are doing and attempting to do and others are

29:13

doing, we call it the social.

29:16

Uh, we even call it social justice or we call

29:18

it the social gospel. And

29:20

so man, just hearing how

29:24

no , that, that that's part and parcel of the gospel

29:27

definitely helpful.

29:42

Um, so in light of all

29:44

that we've seen and we've heard, where

29:47

do we go?

29:50

Sure. Uh, and

29:52

I'm sharing with you my opinion now. Um,

29:54

I really think there needs to

29:56

be a focus. Um,

30:01

at least to the, in my mind, the original

30:03

issue , uh, would

30:05

have to do with w which is connected

30:07

with law enforcement and

30:10

, uh, justly enforcing

30:13

the law. Um,

30:17

and not just in terms of race, that's

30:19

what , uh, catalyze

30:22

what's happening right now. But in every

30:24

sense of the word, you know, that, that,

30:26

that image we have of lady justice

30:29

with the blindfold and

30:32

the scale. Well,

30:34

we know she can see through that blindfold.

30:39

Right? See, she

30:41

can see Brown

30:44

scan through that map . And Brian , she

30:47

can see a blue uniform through that blindfold.

30:50

She can see money in your pocket through that black

30:52

book , and we need the

30:54

work to give her a new blank

30:57

. And,

30:59

and so that's where we start. I

31:02

don't have a problem with addressing many

31:04

of the other issues that are , uh,

31:07

connected racism. But

31:10

, um, once we remove

31:12

the statues and

31:15

the flags , which I think we should, the Confederate

31:18

expressions of that , and we can talk about the other

31:20

ones, but I do believe the

31:22

Confederate expressions.

31:24

I don't have a problem with you put them in the civil war

31:27

museum and that sort of thing, but

31:29

they shouldn't be in the city square , uh

31:32

, uh, is having an

31:35

enemy of the United States. It

31:39

doesn't mean they

31:43

will trade us , correct an

31:45

enemy of the United States or people

31:48

who , uh , bought into trees over

31:50

the sake of , uh, maintaining

31:53

slaves and the economic benefit

31:56

from that, that we keep that in the public

31:58

square. But aside

32:01

from that, we get rid of all of that and

32:04

we don't address , um,

32:06

what happens in our justice system. We

32:09

will be marching again, and

32:11

we will always Mark until we

32:13

at least get it fair. All of the progress

32:16

we have made had

32:18

it, it had the big 10,

32:21

or I want to say begin , but manifest

32:23

legally at some point in time, now

32:26

there's a separate fight and trying to enforce

32:28

that, but you have, you have

32:31

to get it on the books. And

32:34

until we get what we need

32:36

on the books in regards

32:38

to law enforcement and by extension

32:41

our justice system , um

32:43

, we're going to continue to have these these

32:45

issues. And so we are , in my opinion

32:47

, we have to focus there and

32:50

try to identify the specific

32:53

things that need to be in

32:55

place so that , uh

32:57

, law enforcement, which I tell

32:59

people should be respected is

33:02

also respectable

33:07

Why this, this

33:10

idea of law

33:12

enforcement, because some people would say,

33:15

well, we need to register

33:17

more people to vote. Um,

33:20

some people would , uh, would

33:23

say, Hey, you know,

33:26

we need to make sure that we destroy

33:28

this system of systemic racism.

33:30

I mean, you've heard some of these , um,

33:35

uh, phrases or sayings. Uh

33:37

, and so why have you

33:40

decided law enforcement

33:42

is the way to go with

33:45

this particular issue?

33:47

Great question. Uh, and cause it actually

33:49

involves probably

33:52

all of it. Um, the

33:54

reason I say starting

33:56

there a that's what if everything all

33:59

be life and death, immediate

34:01

life and death is involved there . Um,

34:04

the restriction of freedom is

34:06

connected there. When you talk

34:08

about the incarceration of people

34:10

or the abuse of people

34:12

, um, that affects so

34:14

many people , uh, and

34:17

generations, families. And

34:19

so we have to change that

34:22

culture in order to change that culture

34:25

you're going to need to not only be

34:27

registered to vote. Let me tell you what is

34:29

more of a emphasis for

34:31

me is being an educated

34:33

voter than

34:36

just voting. All

34:38

right . So let me just be real Frank, I'm

34:40

an independent, I try to look

34:42

at whoever and what they're running for. Uh

34:46

there's times when I have voted conservative,

34:48

you know? Yeah . There are times when that

34:50

, when I don't. Um , but

34:52

what I do is I try to educate myself

34:55

about who's running. When you

34:57

vote just strict, strictly party platform

34:59

, people can get used

35:01

to you being where you are.

35:05

And so if I , I know you're going to vote

35:07

for him and guess what, I'm going to put

35:09

my attention on the people that might

35:11

not vote for it . And so

35:13

the changes that I implement are

35:16

more about the people who might not vote,

35:18

then the people who will always vote. And

35:21

so if we're going to change anything, they got

35:23

to start seeing it. So I might not

35:25

vote for you .

35:25

Yeah. You know , my wife, you live here will

35:28

be straight. You're going to be parked. I

35:30

got a go . I got to , uh

35:32

, help other people to come into the game though.

35:35

You're not leaving. You're not anywhere. No,

35:38

I hear you bad. We

35:40

tend to, we tend to put more effort

35:43

and energy and the people we don't have, the

35:45

people we have.

35:46

Absolutely. And so, you know,

35:49

you know, I , you know, I'm not trying to say anything

35:51

against the candidate and I'm only remarking

35:53

what you said when he talked about, you know, if you don't vote for

35:56

me, I'm talking about bike , but you're not

35:58

black. Right. And is

36:00

it , and he's actually articulating that

36:04

the democratic candidate and most democratic

36:06

president or candidates expect

36:09

the black people to vote for this .

36:11

He's always saying what's what,

36:13

what the expectation is. We're hearing

36:15

his honest opinion.

36:17

Absolutely. And, and, and

36:19

it's true, right?

36:22

Statistically is absolutely

36:24

true. It's true . But at the

36:26

same time, don't

36:28

expect to see a whole lot of policy

36:30

changes relevant

36:33

to your area because you're

36:35

not going anywhere. Right.

36:39

I have to keep this, this

36:41

demographic interested.

36:44

And so those are the changes that you will see.

36:46

So until we get to the place where

36:49

we communicate that to the people that

36:52

are running, you're not going

36:54

to see anything different

36:57

at the same time. So I don't want just people to

36:59

vote. I want them to know from

37:02

the ground floor , I need them

37:04

to know what a control is before

37:07

they vote for whatever the who's running

37:09

for it . I need them to know what the rail

37:11

commissioner does before they vote for

37:14

who's running for real. Cause

37:16

It is , that's how we got into this vote.

37:22

It's not necessarily uneducated. They

37:24

got a form magic , but educated about people

37:27

that they're , I mean, I've seen so

37:29

many little interviews that man

37:32

had people maybe watch some of this before.

37:34

They could see some patterns of behavior.

37:37

But man, we, most people made

37:40

the decision off reality TV show.

37:42

That is correct. And brother, look here

37:45

the same energy that

37:47

we use in fine and whatever new

37:50

store where the funny thing that we want

37:52

to post on our social media, you

37:55

can take that same 15 sec and

37:58

find out who's running for the, I

38:00

don't know, whatever court of appeals and

38:02

who's running for da and who's

38:04

running for County judge and everything else.

38:06

We are times people vote, they vote by either

38:09

party or last name or

38:11

gender. Right. If you get tired

38:13

of something, you know, I don't know. Maybe it has

38:15

been a male figure there and you just ready for

38:17

a change. There's a female voting . I mean

38:19

, running , I'm just going to vote for it . I

38:22

have no idea. So, so part of that

38:24

is that the education, let me get to the last part

38:26

about deconstructing the whole

38:29

system, just

38:32

the systemic racism. Here's the problem

38:34

with that tearing

38:36

down the house when you still in it. Okay.

38:40

We're we are in

38:42

the system, believe it or not. And

38:46

to try to do it all at

38:49

one time , um

38:51

, we would in essence, destroy ourselves.

38:55

And so you have to dismantle

38:57

things piece by piece, and

39:00

we can argue about which piece

39:02

I'm only suggesting let's start with

39:04

the justice system and very

39:06

small, let's start with law enforcement

39:09

and go from there.

39:12

Uh, your background, your

39:14

life story. Um,

39:17

how does it inform your

39:19

decision making about where

39:22

do we go from here?

39:23

And it's great . And I'm a tell you who

39:26

it is is

39:28

, uh, you know, moving

39:31

out to the suburbs from

39:34

Kashmir guard . Like

39:36

I mentioned , uh, or

39:38

we talked earlier about just some

39:40

strange things I experienced

39:42

, uh, just not exposed to the

39:44

culture. Um, but

39:47

there was a lot of isolation , um,

39:50

you know, being the one

39:52

black kid in the class and I was in like

39:54

the accelerated GED class. So

39:57

wouldn't , it might've been me and one other.

40:00

Um, and so he would do

40:03

things in school where you get into groups, you

40:05

know, and you don't have a group, even

40:07

though you're , you're kind of friends, even

40:10

at the close friends. And so there's a lot of isolation.

40:12

You feel isolated

40:15

, um, even if you never experienced

40:17

anything overtly negative , uh

40:20

, because of who you are,

40:23

there's just this kind of passive feeling

40:26

that how that has shaped me is

40:28

I always look , um,

40:32

at the isolated person

40:34

or people. Um, I'm

40:36

always looking to try to bring

40:38

people in because I know

40:41

and have experienced that feeling of being the odd

40:43

man out. It also

40:45

shaped me into being

40:49

exposed to

40:51

the majority culture more than

40:54

, uh, I'd say maybe definitely

40:56

more than I would have grown up in Kasmin

40:59

art. And so, and

41:01

especially middle school, a lot of times middle school, you're

41:03

trying to figure out who you are anyway.

41:06

And so you , you, are you the only

41:10

black kid everybody's listening to,

41:12

I don't know, Def Leppard and journey. So,

41:17

you know, MTV came out and

41:19

you know, it , it wasn't anything

41:22

else, but definitely, but in journey on TV

41:24

. And so I , I I'm

41:26

exposed to that. And

41:28

some of it, I actually like , believe it

41:30

or not. And then I had

41:33

my, my , uh,

41:37

KRS when public enemy rebound high

41:40

school where I was man,

41:43

look here, brother. I was straight, you

41:46

know, motherland . Yeah.

41:53

It was one of the, you know, I'm tired of compromising

41:55

and , uh , you know, this. And

41:58

so, but all of that has helped me to

42:00

have perspective in a value

42:02

for people, human beings , um,

42:05

a sensitivity to

42:07

difference and appreciation

42:11

for difference . And

42:13

so I try to consider,

42:16

and sometimes I might over balance

42:20

in some, some, some form of fashion,

42:22

but when I see a one

42:24

sided argument, even if it's, even

42:26

if I'm kinda on that side, I

42:29

can't help, but give a different perspective. And,

42:33

and so the ways that helps me is in trying

42:35

to reach those who are

42:37

isolated, no matter which group they're

42:39

in the places is

42:41

, is it can be, as I mentioned, attention

42:45

is , uh , not , uh,

42:47

uh, is crediting the,

42:50

the viewpoint of the other as well. So

42:54

that, that has shaped me. And so I'm always

42:56

looking,

42:58

Yeah. Uh, uh,

43:02

probably not in this conversation, but in a

43:04

previous conversation, we've had you

43:07

kind of outlined , uh,

43:10

on a local level, how

43:12

you think , uh,

43:15

black folk and people who love black vote

43:18

, uh, should

43:21

shape policy on the local level.

43:24

And you expound on that, on that idea.

43:27

Yeah. So now is this in regards

43:29

to law enforcement or wouldn't

43:33

Yeah. You had this , uh, got a platform,

43:36

got three bullet points and

43:39

holding people accountable

43:42

to three bullet points.

43:44

Yeah. So, so, yeah, and that was in, well,

43:47

if it was in my mind, in regards to law enforcement,

43:50

it was in idea of trying

43:53

to do a better job

43:55

of filtering the wrong

43:57

people from going into law enforcement, supporting

44:01

people while they're in law enforcement,

44:04

so that they don't go wrong and

44:07

then holding them accountable if they

44:09

do go wrong. And

44:12

so I don't have this view , um,

44:15

that law enforcement by

44:19

default is, is evil. I

44:21

do think , uh, the way

44:25

it is expressed and understood

44:27

in our general culture is

44:30

not. And let me, let me explain

44:33

that , uh , uh,

44:35

Chicago PD, I don't know if

44:37

you've ever watched this show. I've seen it as pizza

44:39

, Chicago PD

44:41

, um , the lead character, I don't know his last

44:44

name. His first name is Frank and

44:46

Frank is

44:48

one of those. I'm gonna get the job

44:50

done. And if I got

44:52

a rough you up along the way is

44:55

okay. And

44:57

so, because the criminal

45:01

and on the show, we're

45:04

comfortable with Frank roughing

45:07

up, somebody

45:09

picked up on the street , especially if it gives you information

45:12

towards the big, bad guy. And

45:15

in the narrative, the bad guys

45:18

are always bad and

45:21

we celebrate the bad guys

45:23

, experiencing some justice. Now

45:26

here's the problem with that. They experienced

45:28

justice before they came

45:30

before justice . And

45:33

we're okay with that. And

45:36

that is part of our American

45:38

culture that

45:40

we see expressed in the situation

45:42

. And

45:44

, and the problem is it as

45:46

much as we think sometimes it's okay,

45:49

it's never okay. Because our

45:52

system says innocent

45:54

until proven. Right? Right.

45:57

So you got to treat me not as,

45:59

you know, like Frank treats people on the street

46:01

because we know that give , you

46:04

gotta treat them like, do it such and such

46:07

who we think no way they

46:09

did. And so

46:11

that system, we have

46:14

to fix that mentality . So that's law enforcement

46:16

in general, I'm not going

46:18

into now. There's a whole nother level of

46:20

who we assume to be guilt . Right.

46:24

So, so the assumption

46:26

of, of , uh,

46:29

I'm just going to use, I'm going to exaggerate

46:31

this just to illustrate the point. You

46:33

know, so if I have brand picture

46:36

bread , I just gave him that . And

46:40

Brett is walking down the sidewalk at night

46:42

and there's a phone call

46:44

that there's a person , uh

46:47

, of , of interest or suspicion

46:49

in the neighborhood. And

46:52

Brad is walking down the sidewalk. And

46:54

on the other side is

46:56

a surreal , I

46:58

, and give you a picture, but you got it because

47:03

of our culture. And because of the

47:05

racist history, we all know

47:07

who that person

47:10

was probably calling

47:12

in reference to, or at

47:14

least we're going to assume. And

47:18

, uh , and so that's a whole nother problem.

47:21

That's a little bit harder to

47:24

work out the system, but at least

47:27

if we have the first problem out

47:29

in that, I am expressing

47:31

justice, justly, both

47:34

people are respect. Does

47:37

that make sense? That makes sense.

47:41

Pen makes sense. And so , uh,

47:43

when you, when you talk about , uh,

47:47

electing local candidates and

47:51

holding local candidates accountable,

47:53

Yes. Okay. Yes, that'd

47:56

be so, so yeah,

48:00

in this regard, here's what everybody

48:03

can do. Okay. The

48:05

people on the local stuff,

48:07

you can touch them, you

48:10

can email them and

48:14

it's a good shot. They'll they'll have

48:16

at least have a representative respond to your

48:18

email . All right . And

48:21

you can email them. What

48:23

are you going to do to improve our

48:25

law enforcement system? You

48:28

can send that email. You can copy

48:30

what you sent in that one line and paste

48:33

it in the next one. And

48:37

then just like we use social media, but

48:39

everything else it's okay for you to

48:41

share with your circle

48:43

Because they both they're public servant .

48:46

Great. Here's what they told

48:48

me. Or this one didn't

48:50

even say anything. Guess

48:53

what? Just like social media, we got it . Folks,

48:56

you know, w we change and pancake

48:58

boxes. You think you

49:00

can't change a policy if I put heat on

49:02

you. Cause I know exactly what you were saying

49:04

about an issue I care about. Right . And

49:07

I'm of the mindset, whoever

49:09

does what I want in this particular. Cause

49:11

I think it's so important. We all have, I

49:14

guess some of our, our, our, our

49:16

, uh, established things

49:19

that we care about. We

49:22

can't get everything we want. We have

49:24

to prioritize. And

49:26

if this is a hot button issue, we want

49:28

to fix this one thing.

49:30

This come together on this one thing and

49:33

let's support the people who will do something

49:35

about this one thing. And if you

49:37

will support, I'm going to out cross

49:39

over whatever I normally go with and go with

49:41

you to get this one thing changed . And

49:45

if you don't, I will go back on the other

49:47

side to get you out. I'm

49:49

going to fire you. I'm not going to passively

49:51

not vote. I'm going to vote against you. And

49:55

I promise you in an, in , in, within

49:57

two election cycle, no more

49:59

than two, if we did that,

50:01

we would see change .

50:05

Yeah. Uh, what would you say to

50:09

pastors of churches that

50:12

are mostly majority? You , you run into

50:14

them all the time. Their

50:18

congregations may be skiddish about

50:20

some of this. How

50:22

would you , uh, what

50:24

would you suggest they do

50:27

to handle , um,

50:30

this race issue and , uh,

50:32

bring that church along with it?

50:35

Well, we got to talk about it. Like I say , the , the

50:37

, the issue of racism within

50:40

the church is sin. Okay.

50:43

I mean, it's sin in general, but it is,

50:45

it is capital is sand within the church.

50:49

And so this is where we deal with

50:51

hearts and mindset. So within the church, you

50:53

deal with a deeper level stuff. We can't

50:55

deal with the deeper level stuff in

50:58

society, in

51:00

a , in an instance. Yeah . But

51:02

within the church, you

51:04

can articulate from the word of God,

51:07

how this is a sin and we

51:09

gotta treat it like a sin . That

51:11

means wherever we have been party to

51:14

it, we have to repent . And

51:16

we also won't tolerate it when

51:19

it's expressed around it . That's one

51:21

piece. So we've got to deal with the sin of

51:24

racism and then we have

51:26

to deal with the con you know, the issue

51:28

of ignorance. So, you know, when you deal with different

51:30

cultures, there's an ignorance. Um,

51:33

there are things that you're not exposed to when we

51:35

make these judgements

51:37

based on our ignorance. And so

51:39

that's gone to call for some

51:42

intentional relationship built . And

51:45

so when I moved out here , uh, to pear

51:48

land , you know, there's, there's towns, I'm

51:50

in Brazoria County, apparently in , is in Brazoria

51:52

County. And it's on the Northern

51:55

side that matter of fact, the Northern

51:57

most community of Brazoria

52:00

County. And there are some small

52:02

towns in Brazoria County. I never even heard of . I'm

52:05

just going to be Frank. And I'm gonna tell you right

52:07

now, there are parts of places that look here

52:10

, you know, as they talk about sun down ,

52:12

Some damn places in Missouri

52:15

And have historically been, but

52:18

I can tell you, I actually have more

52:20

relationships , um,

52:25

in the sense of , uh,

52:28

the deepest, isolated

52:30

parts of Brazoria County

52:33

than then I had

52:35

with different people, even in Harris County,

52:37

in the Houston area. It's because I've intentionally

52:41

tried to make a relationship.

52:44

I've done stuff I've never done before. I

52:46

, I , I really have never known

52:48

hunting. And so I apologize

52:51

to any , uh, viewer

52:53

that, that is , uh, this can't

52:55

handle that. Or if you're vegan, I apologize

52:59

to you, but I have

53:01

been hunting. And,

53:04

and, and it was to build

53:07

relationship and, and we can have

53:09

these talks. So when this thing happened with George

53:12

Lloyd , it was an interesting dynamic because

53:15

I would hear or see on social

53:18

media people posting, well , where

53:20

are the white pastors about this? How

53:23

come white churches aren't saying anything.

53:25

It, and I was saying it

53:27

left and right. Pastors

53:30

was calling me up and down

53:32

apologizing to me. I'm like, man, it wasn't

53:34

your knee. Yeah . I

53:37

appreciated it because they were recognizing

53:39

that there needs to be a change. And they

53:41

were sharing with me. I don't even know what to do,

53:43

asking me for help, but

53:45

none of that would've happened if I hadn't,

53:47

if I didn't have the relationship. And

53:51

so I've had dinner with these guys,

53:53

they've been to my house, I've been to their house

53:56

and you know , people in Texas

53:58

or it's to create , you don't even know,

54:01

I don't know where the Creek is,

54:04

But , um, I've been there

54:06

and , and fellowship with the,

54:09

these men, they, you know, wives know

54:11

each other. And so when these things

54:13

start to happen and people were saying,

54:15

they're not seeing it it's because they didn't have any relationships

54:19

in that regard. And so I

54:21

could speak to that at the same time,

54:24

whenever I saw negative stuff on

54:26

, um, uh , you know, that

54:28

part of, I guess my, my relationship

54:31

circle, I was able to address it. Cause

54:34

it wasn't like stranger black

54:37

pastor or black man that was

54:39

responding. Right ? Oh, that's

54:41

Chris. I went hunting

54:43

with last year. And

54:47

so if we would be intentional

54:50

that's , I mean, if you think about what Jesus did, that's

54:52

what that's the incarnation, right?

54:56

Incarnation is, I'm going to do what

54:58

I need to do to build a relationship with you, even

55:00

though you don't deserve. And

55:04

so I'm going to love you where you are.

55:07

I'm going to come to be where you

55:09

are. Like you are to be where you are. So,

55:11

so why so that you can be where I

55:13

am. And

55:16

so that's what we, that's what I've tried

55:18

to do and I encourage people to do. Um

55:21

, and that will

55:23

make a difference, a

55:25

genuine belief .

55:27

And this , this is , this is good stuff.

55:30

Uh, man, last words,

55:33

anything that you want

55:35

to add or man wanna include

55:37

, uh , in this man, this is

55:39

great conversation, I think is

55:41

going to bless a lot of people.

55:44

Let me just, just the , the

55:46

bottom line, you know what I'm speaking, just

55:50

from what , what Christ

55:52

has done in

55:55

my life. I am the

55:57

service that was forgiving of

56:00

the great debt . And

56:03

if you know the story of the unmerciful

56:06

servant, when he found

56:08

a fellow servant, I love that it's

56:10

a fellow therapist. It's not a servant of the

56:13

service . It's a fellow

56:15

servant . That's one piece of application. Some

56:17

people may think of the

56:19

other as a servant of themselves, we will

56:22

fill a service . Um

56:24

, but when that other servant wasn't

56:26

dead , it , uh , to here he mistreated

56:30

and he wanted him to be punished

56:33

for his evil, but

56:37

the master saw

56:40

a greater injustice. When

56:44

the forgiven servant didn't

56:46

forget the

56:49

servant who received mercy did

56:51

not extend mercy. And

56:54

so as a , you

56:56

know, people can remember if

57:00

they're in Christ, who they are in Christ

57:02

and it sees their obligation that

57:04

it is, it is right for them to

57:07

extend mercy. If people need to reframe

57:10

social justice in that frame, you can

57:12

do that. It is an extension

57:14

of mercy. It

57:17

is our obligation because

57:19

we have received mercy and

57:23

great words, great words, man,

57:26

where can people find you and

57:29

brother, you know, like the world I'm online now,

57:33

but our website , uh , the way of by

57:36

Thursday , that cop , and of course, and on social

57:38

media , um, we also have

57:40

an app on your app. So , but

57:43

that's where we are right now at the time being man

57:45

, thank you for your time and your

57:47

words. I mean, you bless me tremendously,

57:50

just , uh , sitting here, listening to

57:53

this conversation and that

57:56

, thank you. Thank

57:58

you, bro . [inaudible]

58:12

.