0:00

The real Christian faith, they would understand justices

0:02

absolutely core. I mean, you, if you did

0:05

any study of the Bible, that word comes up.

0:07

So often that God's

0:10

saying I am a lover of justice,

0:12

the prophets constantly railing

0:15

because of the injustice and so

0:17

on and so forth. So if they see justice

0:20

and Jesus, as in conflict, then they

0:22

haven't known ,

0:35

Hey, kinfolk folk . I am here with

0:37

dr. Michael Emerson. He

0:40

is the professor and head

0:42

in the department of sociology at

0:45

the university of Illinois, Chicago

0:48

published widely in the areas of race,

0:51

religion, and urban sociology. He's

0:53

the author of tons of books

0:55

or seminal books that I've read

0:57

and loved divided by faith. I've

1:00

got him here with me today. Dr

1:02

. Please introduce yourself.

1:04

Hey , uh, so yeah, I'm dr . Michael

1:07

Emerson and I've been looking forward to this. We're

1:09

going to have some fun in this conversation and thank

1:12

you all for listening. Well ,

1:14

Uh, let's get to it. So , um, I want to

1:16

talk about man, your journey

1:18

to sociology in general.

1:20

What is sociology and

1:23

why are you interested in it ?

1:25

Hmm . You know, I went to college and

1:27

I did, I think what a lot of people do , uh,

1:30

is I thought, well, I want

1:32

to help people. So how do you do that? I started

1:35

in psychology. I thought maybe I'll be a counselor

1:37

or something. I stumbled

1:39

into taking a class in sociology and

1:43

it just rocked my world because when I was

1:45

in psychology, I kept

1:47

asking the professors, okay.

1:50

The act like that way. And they kept saying, well, it's influenced

1:52

by what goes on around you, you know, by your family,

1:54

by society. Like , okay, well then we

1:56

should talk about that. And so sociology

2:00

is the discipline that lets us talk about

2:02

that all the time, how our

2:04

society, how our groups, how our friends and family

2:07

influence us, influence

2:09

each other.

2:12

Uh, what, what , uh, propelled you to say,

2:14

I'm gonna move past doing

2:17

a bachelor's and I'm going to be a subject

2:19

matter, matter expert as sociology.

2:23

So I, I love learning and,

2:26

but I felt like I was just getting started. And

2:28

, uh, I was also looking for a profession

2:31

that would allow me to , uh

2:33

, spend time with my children flexibly. Like

2:35

if they had a ball game or something,

2:37

I wanted to make sure I could go. And so I

2:40

thought, wow, if I love learning,

2:42

why don't I become a professor? So onto

2:45

the masters , onto the PhD,

2:49

You grew up in Minneapolis?

2:51

Yeah. Minneapolis area. That's right.

2:53

Can you describe your,

2:56

your childhood? What would you say? Uh,

2:59

when, when someone says, how

3:01

was childhood? What was it like?

3:05

Uh , well, I'll say very white , um,

3:09

Norwegian father, Italian mother.

3:11

And , uh, we

3:13

started out in Minneapolis. We eventually

3:15

went into a suburb and then even

3:17

my parents bought a little roller rink out in

3:20

a small town. So starting

3:22

at fifth grade until I graduated , I was in a small

3:25

Minnesota town and

3:27

, uh, pretty middle class. My father

3:29

worked commuted to Minneapolis. My

3:32

mother was usually home, sometimes

3:34

running the roller rink . So

3:36

just kind of a basic

3:38

white life. I think our town was , uh

3:41

, 100% white. Wow.

3:44

So which brings up

3:46

an interesting question that I wanted to ask

3:49

your work seems to focus

3:52

on race. Well, not

3:54

all your work, you've got tons of

3:56

work, but a

3:59

lot of your work seems to function, to

4:02

focus on race as a sociological

4:05

sociological category in

4:07

the American experience. Why is

4:09

that

4:11

Two things? So it started with, I

4:14

mentioned my mother being Italian. And if you're

4:17

familiar with Minnesota, you know, land

4:19

of the Scandinavians and which my father

4:21

fit into, but my mother never did. And I would watch

4:23

how people found her bizarre.

4:25

And then my grandfather lived with us and he was

4:27

actually from Italy.

4:30

So I was intrigued by that. And this town

4:33

that we lived in, even though it was all Scandinavians,

4:35

except for my mother and two others , uh,

4:38

was completely divided in

4:41

a, in a way that nobody would understand unless you were there.

4:43

And it was Norwegians and

4:45

Swedes on one side and

4:47

Finnish folks on another, they went to separate churches. They

4:50

use the spaces like the couple of restaurants in town

4:52

separately. We never injure married

4:55

after being age five. You weren't allowed

4:57

to be friends and spend time together.

5:00

So that really intrigued me. I

5:02

was actually born in Chicago. So of college.

5:04

I returned to Chicago and

5:07

I was struck by the physical nature

5:09

of Chicago that I could, where I went to

5:12

school. I would get off the train

5:14

and it was all African American. I'd walk, a

5:16

couple blocks, all white. And of course

5:18

the areas looked very different and

5:20

that's really what, like, why is

5:22

this, how can this happen? Yeah.

5:25

So it's those things combined. Wow.

5:28

Um, you also

5:30

do work , uh,

5:33

With religion and sociology.

5:36

How'd you get there?

5:39

We, I, yeah, like in grad school, I didn't

5:41

study religion at all, but we had gotten

5:43

a grant to study American

5:46

evangelicals. Um , and I was

5:48

just added to the grant. That wasn't one

5:50

that I had applied for and

5:52

they added me because like, well, we need someone

5:54

to interview. African-Americans

5:57

it tells you a little bit about the makeup of the

5:59

group, but yeah. Uh,

6:01

so then I started learning, you know, as

6:03

a Christian, I was interested, but I hadn't formally

6:06

studied it, but that was the impetus.

6:09

And so it seems like

6:11

a lot of things that were happening

6:13

in your life personally , um,

6:17

infused the type of scholarly work that

6:19

you endeavored on. Um, speak

6:22

to me specifically

6:24

about man , how you came to

6:26

faith as a Christian.

6:30

Yeah. So I grew up in a home that was at best

6:32

nominally. Uh, was

6:34

it actually Catholic? And then we

6:36

moved to, when we moved to this small Minnesota town,

6:38

there was no Catholic church in the town or any of

6:40

the towns around. So we started

6:43

, uh , occasionally going to a Lutheran church.

6:46

But these back then there

6:48

was a group called , um

6:50

, campus crusade, campus

6:52

life. It was called and they would allow

6:55

people to come onto our campus

6:58

they're in school. So , uh,

7:00

the particular leader would often sit

7:02

with us at the lunch table. And

7:05

one time he asked me to go out to

7:07

have a dinner

7:09

and he asked me those two famous questions.

7:12

Right. Uh, if

7:14

you were to die tonight, would you go to heaven and why? And

7:16

I gave the standard answer. I hope so. Cause I try to

7:19

be a good person. And

7:21

, uh , that's when he shared the gospel with me, prayed

7:24

to accept Christ there. And then a

7:27

teacher that I had actually two that married.

7:30

Um , they lived across the street from me and they

7:32

really, they were strong. Christians really

7:34

took me under their wing, mentored me

7:36

as did this person that led me to Christ. And

7:39

so that was the journey.

7:42

And so as your

7:45

journey through and trying to finish

7:48

, uh , your master's and your

7:50

PhD, were there

7:52

any roadblocks? You know,

7:54

cause I think probably, you know,

7:57

during the time you would get in your doing

7:59

your work, there was conflicts that

8:02

there were, I

8:04

like to say made up conflicts between

8:07

, uh, this is faith.

8:09

This is science. How did you reconcile

8:11

that in the world that you came

8:14

up in?

8:15

Yeah, the way I reconcile is the way I teach

8:18

my Christian students today, which is

8:21

when you're studying a discipline, it's teaching you

8:23

a method to know a

8:26

method to know about God's creation. You

8:28

are allowed to have

8:30

your faith influence, what questions you ask

8:33

and what motivations that you might have

8:36

as long as you use that method

8:39

that is designed as specified as

8:41

the scientific method. So that's how I

8:43

combine them and try to teach

8:45

others to do.

8:47

Hmm . Uh, so you're

8:49

not afraid to say I

8:51

come with a certain set of assumptions

8:54

to everything that I, I do.

8:56

I come with a certain Jesus is Lord.

8:58

The resurrection is real, but I bring

9:00

that to , uh

9:03

, I , I , you're not, it seems like you're not afraid

9:05

to say I bring that to every scientific

9:08

endeavor. I , I have bar

9:10

That's right out of the room

9:12

, totally out of the blue actually,

9:15

when I was , um , just starting

9:17

on in college, a Christian

9:20

fellow student who I barely knew, came up to me and

9:22

he said, I have a word for you. God

9:24

will anger you by that, which is not a nation

9:26

by that, which is divides us.

9:29

And he just walked away and I had no idea

9:31

what he was talking about, but

9:34

I never forgot it. And uh,

9:36

yeah, that's the guiding principle of my

9:39

work. Like why would I be interested in race by

9:41

that? Which divides us it , there it is.

9:44

Yeah. And religion. Yeah.

9:48

Um, you , you authored a book over

9:50

20 years ago. It seems to

9:52

be the seminal book , uh,

9:55

in this particular category called

9:57

divided by faith. And

10:00

I've got a three part question. I know

10:02

people should ,

10:03

I'm not smart enough to hold that all in my head.

10:05

Well, you know, we'll we'll

10:08

journey through this. Um, why

10:10

did you write the book originally? What

10:12

is the central premise of the book? And

10:14

do you still think it holds true today?

10:19

Alright , those are good questions. All

10:22

right . So I wrote the book is going back. As I mentioned,

10:24

we were doing this project and I was

10:26

of the nine people on the research project.

10:28

That was the only one interviewing African-American

10:31

the way it was originally designed is that we would each take

10:35

divide the country up into nine segments. And we need you

10:37

to take a segment, but because no

10:39

one else felt comfortable interviewing

10:42

nonwhite . It was interesting. They signed

10:44

. Yeah

10:48

. Why did they pick you? Because

10:51

I had studied race.

10:54

So , and all of them felt like, I don't know anything.

10:56

Like they literally were living in

10:59

white worlds. Right. So they felt like, how can

11:01

I didn't even know, how would I

11:03

start? How would I find people to interview? So

11:05

I was flying around the country, spending

11:09

w my method was, I would like show

11:11

up in Birmingham, Alabama, and not

11:13

know anybody, but meet one

11:15

person eventually. And then that one person would

11:18

help me connect and find people to

11:20

interview in different churches. And it started snowballing

11:22

until, you know, after

11:24

I've been there a month, I would have several dozen interviews

11:27

done. Then go on to the next. What

11:32

that afforded me was that I,

11:35

as I'm interviewing black and white and

11:38

in this project, that's we really only

11:40

interviewed black and white. Uh

11:42

, I was in two different worlds that I just

11:45

couldn't. I mean, everybody

11:47

we were in was Christian, serious

11:49

Christians, but they were talking about their

11:51

face. So fundamentally using

11:53

their faith in such different ways that

11:56

it was that tension that

11:59

I just had to wrestle with what's going on.

12:01

And that's what the book divided by faith

12:03

was my

12:05

way of trying to figure out what's going on.

12:10

Uh, do you think your

12:12

central premise of the book, do

12:14

you think it holds true today and what is that

12:16

central principle for you? So,

12:20

yeah, it's , uh ,

12:21

Focuses mostly on , uh , white

12:24

evangelicals in the book , uh,

12:27

and, but always comparing to black Christians

12:30

and finding fundamental differences. So

12:33

it wasn't just that I'm experiencing this in interviews.

12:35

Then we went in and looked at national data. We had collected

12:38

and sure enough, this dramatic differences

12:40

in racial

12:42

views in the ways that we think

12:45

Christianity should affect change and

12:47

how we understand , uh

12:49

, the role of government. And it goes on and on. So

12:54

the argument in the book is that there's a white

12:56

evangelicals have created a cultural toolkit

13:00

that they use. So if you think about a toolbox,

13:02

you've got some tools in there that the tools

13:05

they have are different than the tools African-American

13:08

Christians have. So, and I'll

13:10

just briefly say what those are. We can go,

13:13

Let's get into it. I think people,

13:16

people need to understand that there's a, that

13:18

there's two different worlds because anytime

13:21

we talk about unity and we'll get here, it's

13:23

always the conversations

13:25

let's just unify, but I

13:28

don't know if people know what they're unifying

13:30

into or what they're made

13:32

of to be able to say, we're going to integrate

13:34

like this, but I want to hear this as fascinating.

13:37

Sorry.

13:38

No, that's great. I appreciate that. So the

13:40

first one has, is it seems

13:42

like a fancy term, but we'll break it down. Freewill

13:46

accountable, individualism that's tool,

13:48

number one. So what is that? So

13:50

for white Christians , uh

13:52

, individualism is the

13:54

fundamental principle. How do I

13:56

become a Christian? I individually

13:59

decide to accept, right? Don't

14:01

do it as a group. I do it individually.

14:03

That's what I'm taught. I just described my own

14:05

faith journey. That's what I was taught. Okay.

14:09

So individualism

14:11

becomes very central, but it has these

14:13

two conditions on it. Freewill

14:15

accountable individual. I freely can

14:17

choose. I can choose Christ or

14:19

not. That's my free will. It's

14:22

accountable. I will be held accountable for

14:24

my decision. Alright

14:27

, what I'm going to argue by the way, is

14:29

that these three tools that I'll mention,

14:32

which are fundamental to the faith, become

14:34

fundamental in how people

14:36

understand the world. So they, they generalized

14:39

them. They use them for understanding everything,

14:41

their relationship and so on. And that is the next

14:43

tool, which is relational ism . If

14:47

I think about individuals as the core of

14:49

what reality is, if

14:51

my faith is about a relationship

14:54

with Christ, then

14:56

I understand the world that

14:58

way. So I think about individual

15:01

relationships with others. It's not

15:03

uncommon to hear the phrase,

15:06

changing the world one heart at a time, that's

15:09

taking those two tools and it becomes

15:12

obvious if those are your tools, that's what makes

15:14

sense to you. That's how you change the world. You

15:16

don't change the world by , uh , having

15:18

a television station in influencing people

15:21

or changing a law. You

15:23

change people's hearts. So

15:25

the third one then is the counter to those,

15:28

which is anti structuralism. And

15:30

if I believe you change the world

15:33

one heart at a time, then

15:36

things like , uh , structures, laws,

15:39

all those kinds of things. They don't really

15:42

exist. What I heard over and over again, when

15:44

I interviewed white Christians, not black Christians

15:47

was that when people talk about

15:50

structures, laws, those

15:53

are facades. Those are things

15:56

put in to confuse us.

15:58

They are the wrong answer. They will never

16:00

lead to heart change and heart changes. The only

16:02

thing that matters. So therefore

16:06

we need to resist those

16:08

kinds of things. So if we talk, you know , as we probably

16:10

get into systemic racism , uh,

16:16

yeah . All those kinds of systematic things.

16:19

Well, not only do I

16:21

may not believe they're there, I actually have to actively

16:24

resist them. Otherwise I'm violating my

16:27

faith understanding.

16:28

Yeah . Which, which can explain some of

16:31

the backlash against

16:34

it , which whether you're proponent or

16:36

not really doesn't matter is just the fascination

16:39

of the backlash against what

16:41

people have turned critical race theory,

16:44

but we've got all these other things

16:46

that we kind of hold onto

16:48

, uh , nationalism, patriotism,

16:51

all these big categories. But

16:54

in the case of something like this, when

16:57

it's mentioned, there's outward

16:59

resistance, you know, you

17:01

don't want Marxism, but we're fine

17:04

with another category

17:06

capitalism, you know, it's just, this

17:09

is, it's fascinating to see

17:12

the conversation just kind

17:14

of evolve .

17:16

Yeah. And can I add on that? So the reason that you would support

17:18

capitalism and not Marxism within

17:20

this understanding of these cultural tools is capitalism

17:23

is viewed as rewarding. Those individuals

17:26

who are willing to work hard and sacrifice.

17:28

And so there it goes. Right.

17:32

Okay. Uh , and so

17:34

you named these, these three

17:36

things, it , why Christians

17:38

in particular, hold on to , in

17:40

your study, what

17:43

were some of the tenants that black

17:45

Christians held onto ?

17:47

So some, some that we like

17:49

almost never heard of when white

17:52

Christians talked about their faith, one

17:54

is a , um , much

17:56

more flexibility of

17:59

like theological doctrine. So God

18:01

is a much more active God in the world , uh

18:04

, than we saw for most white Christians.

18:07

So theology matters,

18:09

but what matters more is seeing God work

18:11

in the world. And one of the things that God works

18:14

in the world for is just, or

18:16

right. Relationships for fairness.

18:19

So God is actively doing that. Our

18:21

part is to be supporting that, connecting

18:23

with God in that. Uh,

18:26

yeah. So that's, that is one fundamental

18:29

difference.

18:30

It's interesting that you say that because I guess the

18:32

country's history fundamentally , uh,

18:36

our , for our forefathers were deist

18:38

. And so, you

18:40

know, we do, we do

18:43

every God helps those who help themselves.

18:46

Uh, God is generally not active.

18:49

He's placed us here to do the work. And

18:52

so it seems like even throughout

18:54

the years, that, that the

18:56

ism has kind of seeped

18:58

into , uh , popular

19:01

white evangelical evangelicalism.

19:04

Yeah. Yeah . And it's so interesting because

19:07

these are people of the book, but it's such

19:09

a high percent when you ask does, is

19:11

it in the Bible that says, God helps those

19:13

who help themselves say, yeah, it's in the Bible. Of course

19:16

it's not, but,

19:18

Oh . Um, so

19:22

do you think that those categories

19:24

and that understanding

19:26

of Christianity from

19:29

, uh , the white perspective, black

19:31

perspective, do you still think

19:33

20 plus years later that

19:35

that holds true today?

19:38

Oh , it totally holds true today. So what

19:40

we've been engaged in last couple of years here

19:43

, uh , continuing right til now

19:45

is redoing that study to

19:47

see if things have changed. And

19:50

here's what I'll conclude. Two things. Uh,

19:52

one almost on every measure, things

19:55

have stayed exactly the same, or

19:58

if there's changed , the divide is now larger

20:00

than it was 20 years ago. We

20:03

see zero evidence of anything coming

20:06

closer together. The

20:08

other thing I would add is this , uh

20:12

, and , and I'll think , uh, some

20:14

African American scholars who have asked, why

20:17

do you think these cultural tools are the

20:19

white evangelical cultural tools? Is

20:22

it just by chance or

20:24

might it serve a larger interest

20:26

of, you know, maintaining

20:28

the advantages they have? So

20:30

I would say that the cultural tools

20:32

, uh, are specifically

20:35

emphasized because they do allow

20:37

, uh, whites

20:40

to maintain their advantages. They're

20:42

very conducive to that.

20:46

When you say whites , uh,

20:48

maintain their cultural advantage, are

20:51

you talking about whites as individuals

20:53

or whites as well ?

20:55

Yeah. See

20:57

, I'm talking about white as group,

21:00

but when you, when you make the cultural tool

21:02

argument that there is only individuals,

21:05

then you cannot make

21:08

the change necessary. Right? The racial

21:10

advantages that whites have the

21:12

have them, because they've been codified into law,

21:15

into our policies since we began. But

21:18

if you deny that exists, that's

21:21

very advantageous to making sure it never

21:23

changed. Oh yeah.

21:24

True. So there are a few quotes

21:26

in the book that I kind of want to get to. Uh,

21:29

and , uh, one is of

21:31

Tocqueville. It says

21:33

when I bought it , I do not imagine that the white and black

21:36

race, wherever live in any country

21:38

upon equal footing, but

21:40

I believe the difficulty to

21:42

be steel greater in the United

21:45

States than elsewhere. An isolated

21:47

individual may surmount the prejudices

21:49

of religion of his country or

21:51

of his race. And if this individual

21:54

is a King, he may affect surprising

21:56

changes in society, but a

21:58

whole people can not rise as it

22:01

were above itself, a desk spot

22:03

who should subject the Americans and their former

22:05

slaves to the same yoke might

22:08

perhaps succeed in commingling

22:10

they're racist. But as long as the American

22:12

democracy remains at the head

22:15

of affairs, no one will undertake

22:17

so difficult a task. And it may be

22:19

foreseen that the free of the white

22:22

population of the United States becomes

22:24

the more isolated will

22:26

it remain. Why did you include

22:29

that quote? And

22:31

do you think it's still true today?

22:35

So that's Tocqueville is if those

22:38

who don't know as a French

22:40

intellectual from way back in the

22:43

early mid 18 hundreds, and he

22:46

came to the United States because we were doing something

22:48

so odd that the world had

22:50

never heard of democracy where the people

22:53

supposedly rule and he wanted to see

22:55

what was this country like? How does it actually operate

22:58

and wrote an incredible book on it? Any

23:01

think about it. He wrote that in, I think it was 1840s.

23:04

Yeah. Would that not be true today?

23:06

It's totally true today . Isn't

23:08

it? Where's the we're , we're in the

23:10

midst of such struggle , uh,

23:14

over those very issues. And I think he really

23:17

pinpoints one of the weaknesses

23:19

of democracy. If you have a majority

23:23

group , uh, why are they going

23:25

to vote against their own interests?

23:28

They're not. Yeah.

23:31

Oh man. So what

23:34

struck me about this quote was the last

23:36

part of it, which is white

23:39

isolation. I

23:42

I'm just being introduced to the term.

23:44

I, I'm not a white person,

23:47

so I wouldn't know, but it just struck

23:49

me. What does that mean? And

23:53

then, I mean, is

23:55

that still something that is relevant to

23:57

today?

23:59

Yeah. So one of the things that I studied

24:01

a lot and there's a whole big literature

24:03

on is segregation like housing

24:05

segregation and all the consequences

24:08

from that, but it was always skewed.

24:10

It was black folk or

24:12

Hispanic folk or segregated from white

24:14

folk. Well that's because

24:16

it was mostly white people doing the analysis.

24:19

And so on. It turns out

24:21

that the most segregated people by far in this

24:23

country today, as

24:25

it has always been, are white people. They are the

24:27

least likely to have contact with

24:30

others, their children, I bar

24:32

far the most likely to grow up

24:35

isolated from other racial groups, usually

24:37

in suburban or rural areas. And

24:40

so we're in a constant thing that kids

24:42

go to college and they're suddenly

24:44

being introduced to diversity and

24:47

Oh, why didn't I ever learn this? And

24:49

then they graduate get a nice job.

24:51

And they do the same thing and they move to a

24:53

principally white suburb and raised their children.

24:56

And then we go again, the next generation that

24:58

isolation. Yeah. It hasn't dissipated

25:00

at all.

25:01

And as you're describing it, it seems

25:04

to describe both

25:06

politically conservative people,

25:09

leaning people and politically

25:12

liberal leaning people as well. They

25:15

do the same thing.

25:16

They do the exact same. They talk differently.

25:19

They say they believe differently, but in their actions,

25:21

there is no difference .

25:24

Um , man, let's not run away from this

25:27

in your trying to help

25:30

people to understand this particularly

25:32

, uh, by people

25:34

to understand this, what have been some of the

25:36

reactions from conservatives

25:39

polo ? Let me, let me, cause there's religious, conservative,

25:41

religious liberal, I'm talking

25:44

specifically politically, politically

25:46

conservative, politically liberal people.

25:48

What are their differences in their reaction

25:50

to hearing this? Or is

25:52

it basically the same ,

25:54

Uh , to the message of isolation or which message.

25:57

Yeah. Oh, sorry. Specifically the message

25:59

of isolation. Yeah .

26:01

Yes. Okay. So this is, and

26:04

I'll give an illustration. So we published a

26:06

piece , uh , calling and I, what we did

26:08

was we said, what happens as

26:11

people become more educated? White

26:13

people become much more progressively

26:16

liberal. So there's a very strong correlation

26:18

there. Okay. So we looked

26:20

at where do the highly educated compared to

26:23

the less educated whites send their children

26:25

to school. This is a national study.

26:28

And we found a very, very clear pattern.

26:30

As whites become more educated, their

26:33

children are in less

26:35

diverse schools. And we were able to see

26:37

that there's a clear pattern of why as

26:39

the schools are children are in become more

26:42

diverse. They take their children

26:44

out of the schools and put them elsewhere into

26:46

wider schools. We

26:48

had to submit that thing and got it rejected

26:51

nine different times over a five

26:53

year period because who's reviewing

26:55

this educated whites. Yeah.

26:58

Yeah . Okay. So if people aren't familiar, when

27:00

you're trying to publish something in a journal,

27:02

you send it blind review

27:05

by three other scholars, and

27:07

then they decide if it can be published or not. So

27:09

they kept saying things like this, can't be true.

27:12

Go back to your data. That's not how we understand

27:14

it. We become more educated. We're more progressive.

27:16

We wouldn't do that. Then it

27:18

was well, once

27:20

we were able to establish, it really is true. Then,

27:23

well, black educated would do the same thing.

27:25

So we went and got data on black and we found

27:28

this exact opposite effect. So

27:31

as black men come more educated, their

27:33

children are more diverse. All

27:36

right , we finally could

27:38

not get it published in the United States. We sent it over

27:40

to England for a journal. They have a journal

27:42

on race and ethnicity in England. They accepted

27:44

it immediately because they now,

27:47

they weren't being assaulted. Cause it wasn't , uh

27:49

, the same context. Right? Yeah . So

27:52

that, that is , uh , that illustrates

27:54

, um, I actually find more resistance

27:56

from white liberals. Uh

27:58

, at least when we talk about actions.

28:01

Wow. That , that, I

28:05

think that, that summarizes

28:07

some of the feeling of frustration

28:10

that some of us who try to work

28:12

with , uh , the white

28:14

politically liberal establishment

28:17

face cause on its face, it's , there's

28:20

the words that are said and the things

28:22

that are said, they see that the

28:24

rhetoric is always peer and

28:26

good, but the actions seem to

28:28

be the same if

28:30

not worse. Um, but let's

28:33

move on. So the second quote

28:35

I wanted to talk to you about

28:37

from the book was a

28:40

quote. The framework we hear

28:43

use racial is race

28:46

racialization reflects

28:48

that adaption. It understands that racial

28:50

practices that produce racial

28:53

division in the contemporary United

28:55

States are one increasingly

28:58

covert two are embedded

29:00

in normal operations of institutions.

29:03

Three avoid direct

29:05

racial terminal terminology,

29:08

and four are invisible to

29:10

most whites. You use

29:12

this as a rubric to describe

29:15

what you, your term racialization,

29:18

what some people may now call systematic

29:21

racism. I just want your reaction

29:23

20 years later, do

29:25

you still hold to those four tenets or

29:28

have they evolved as, as, as time

29:31

progress ?

29:32

Yeah, so I think they're evolving in that

29:34

it's becoming less covert. Uh

29:37

, it's certainly as deeply embedded

29:39

as it's always been in our institutions , uh,

29:43

unless invisible white , uh,

29:45

partly because of the changes in what we can see on

29:48

TV and social media , uh,

29:51

I think we're becoming more aware we are divided

29:53

, uh, but also more sophisticated

29:56

to explain a way why that's okay

29:58

. When you say

30:00

More sophisticated in our ability

30:02

to

30:04

Explain in a way, what do you mean

30:06

by that? So

30:08

a , a big function of , of racism, which we can

30:11

get into the definition, but its function

30:13

is to justify our

30:15

racialization or racial inequality

30:17

or racial division. Right?

30:20

So if, if we can present data

30:22

and evidence or if we can clearly see we

30:24

are racially divided and

30:26

I then say, I explain

30:29

it away. Well it's because what's really

30:31

happening is it's class or

30:34

it's uh , because

30:36

some groups are getting married more and marriage

30:38

matters and I'm trying

30:40

to find ways to not address the issue

30:42

just to account and explain the issue

30:45

and say why we don't have to deal

30:47

with it. Yeah . So getting

30:49

into this , uh, what

30:53

is

30:54

The definition of racism

30:56

And

30:58

You use racialization in

31:01

your explanation, help me understand what

31:03

racialization is and how it relates

31:05

,

31:06

What people describe as

31:09

racism. Yeah. So

31:11

racialization is , uh

31:13

, and there's only a couple of countries in the world

31:15

that are, that certainly South Africa and that you can find

31:17

a few others, but it means that

31:20

most of life is structured

31:22

by race, that you you're born into it.

31:24

You are structured into

31:26

it without even knowing it it's the air we breathe.

31:29

So racialization means it

31:31

influences , uh, our

31:33

life opportunities, our life chances,

31:36

our social relationships, you know, that's certainly

31:38

not random who we ended up marrying.

31:40

We almost always are marrying within our own race.

31:43

Uh, there are exceptions and there are nations for why

31:46

there's exceptions. So

31:48

racialization means that's embedded into laws.

31:51

And then ultimately it means that

31:53

it forms a ranking of

31:55

groups by rates. So

31:57

yes, there's variation within racial groups,

32:00

but there's never been variation

32:03

in our country. When you rank the

32:05

groups themselves, whites are always

32:07

at the top Asians,

32:11

Hispanics, African Americans, and

32:13

then a group who doesn't even get ranked. Of course, native Americans

32:16

often just forgotten. So racism

32:20

here . So we talk about systematic racism

32:22

and we talk about individual racism. Let me, let

32:25

me make it clear. So I think individuals

32:28

can be racially prejudice and individuals

32:31

are racially discriminatory. They do

32:34

things. And they think things based

32:36

on rates . But when I talk about

32:38

racism and when sociologists talk about

32:40

it, we define it as this, the

32:42

collective misuse

32:45

of power, the collective, it's not

32:47

something an individual does. Individuals

32:50

can do prejudice and they can do discrimination the

32:52

collective and do racism.

32:55

And it's the misuse of power by one

32:58

racial group that

33:00

harms other groups. And the reason

33:02

that they're doing it is because it benefits

33:05

their group and they have the power to

33:07

do it. That's why it's the misuse of our

33:09

, um

33:11

,

33:13

Collective use of racism.

33:16

Someone who may be listening may

33:19

say, how is it that people

33:22

collect? How do the , how does the

33:24

collective use their power

33:26

when I'm sitting here in Houston,

33:28

Texas, and I've just voted

33:30

every four years, how has it been? My collective

33:33

is using my power.

33:35

Yeah. So we are in a democracy. So voting

33:37

is the ultimate way that we use our power.

33:39

So if we collectively

33:41

vote for people to put into court,

33:45

to codify laws, that advantage

33:47

one group over another, then that is

33:49

how we do it. We can do that by

33:52

you think about red lining, where we

33:56

made it acceptable, that certain neighborhoods,

33:58

and it turned out by the federal government.

34:00

If you even had one black family

34:02

in a neighborhood, it got red line, meaning

34:05

you can't get loans there.

34:07

This happened in your hometown or Chicago.

34:09

Oh my gosh. It happens all the time.

34:12

Yes. Um

34:14

, with,

34:19

I wanna , I wanna move to

34:21

the last quote

34:24

that I have from your , um,

34:28

but Oh, before we get there , uh

34:30

, do you think things have

34:33

changed for the better over

34:36

the last 20 years? And if it has

34:38

it, then can you elaborate as

34:40

to why not

34:43

As a Christian ? I want to say, cause I'm always hopeful.

34:45

I think, you know, we are, we know

34:47

what happens in the end. God wins.

34:50

The kingdom is ushered in, in the last

34:52

20 years by all data

34:54

we've been studying. No, it hasn't gotten

34:57

better. And again, by many accounts, it's gotten

34:59

worse. Why

35:01

that is , uh,

35:06

as I

35:09

can do this in two different ways, but we

35:11

have have , uh , we have a constant history

35:14

of racial division

35:16

that gets expressed in different ways, whether that

35:18

was slavery. That was Jim Crow.

35:21

What we're in now has been identified

35:23

in that wonderful book called the new Jim Crow

35:25

, uh, is that we moved

35:27

to the law and order society and use

35:29

incarceration. We find ways consistently

35:32

to make African Americans second

35:35

class citizens , when you incarcerated course,

35:38

and we incarcerate more than any nation

35:40

in the world by far, then

35:44

once you get out, you, if you get out,

35:46

you remain a second class citizen in terms of voting and

35:48

so on. So

35:52

the form changes, the result is

35:54

the same and that's where we're at.

35:56

Yeah. So I forgot

35:59

to ask you this race.

36:02

As most of us understand

36:05

race, those are who are not initiated

36:07

to sociology. We understand

36:09

race as a skin

36:11

color, but from what

36:13

I've been reading and from what I've been hearing, can

36:16

you explain what it means for race

36:18

to be a social category,

36:21

how it evolves

36:23

historically over time?

36:26

Yeah. I mean, a race

36:28

really only comes into existence around the

36:30

15 hundreds , uh, for

36:32

specific reasons to explain to

36:34

account for this inequality and mistreatment of human

36:36

beings, we created a category of

36:39

race. And then we think about the writings

36:41

and these were the scientific writings, how

36:44

the white races at the top and the most blessed

36:46

with best brains and on and on at

36:49

the founding of our country, we put

36:51

it into the constitution. And because

36:53

we were doing this grand experiment called

36:55

democracy, our founding fathers

36:58

said, we have

37:00

to have educated

37:04

people who are under control

37:06

to vote. I mean, can't just be haphazardly

37:08

voting. They got to know what they're doing. So

37:10

they made it into a racial issue by saying

37:13

this white folks

37:16

are people who are ruled by their minds

37:18

. Everybody else is ruled by

37:20

their passions so they can

37:23

be citizens who can vote. So they were

37:26

not allowed to be citizens. And

37:28

that's why, so

37:30

you start creating this, these categories

37:33

that you might think are just like some color

37:35

differences in, you totally

37:39

view them with all of this

37:41

deep meaning that, you know, in

37:43

the end they're stereotypes. That aren't true, but there

37:45

they are .

37:46

You write about Italians and

37:49

Irish moving from one

37:51

racial category to another. Can

37:54

you elaborate on what you meant by that?

37:57

So the brilliancy of whiteness

38:00

is that it's flexible. I've

38:02

been reading since I started graduate school

38:04

that by the year 2040 or

38:06

the year varies, but somewhere 20, 40

38:08

to 25th , whites will be the minority.

38:11

And then everything will change while here

38:13

to say, no, they will. Not that

38:15

that's a wrong understanding of whiteness. Whiteness

38:18

keeps expanding to always maintain

38:20

it a door . So when my grandfather

38:22

came from Italy and my grandmother

38:24

in the 1920s , uh,

38:27

they came through Ellis Island and I have the document

38:29

, uh , from their

38:31

entry and they had to write their race

38:33

and they both wrote white. And

38:36

the clerk that worked there crossed off on

38:38

both of theirs , white and wrote what

38:40

was the racial category then called swarthy,

38:43

which was something in between

38:45

black and white, not to be trusted

38:48

often given to Southern Europeans.

38:51

Um, so my grandparents,

38:54

when they came here were swarthy by

38:57

the time they got into the 1960s or so

38:59

they were white. That's what I mean

39:01

by the flexibility of whiteness and an expanding.

39:05

Um , and we, one of the things we are tracking

39:07

closely now is , is that happening with some Asian

39:09

groups? Are they going to be defined as white right

39:12

now? They're all honorary white

39:14

and often held up as representing

39:17

good whites .

39:20

This is, this is amazing. So

39:23

, uh, with the research that you're doing with

39:25

Asians, what have you found well,

39:28

is it done? And what are some

39:30

of the conclusions that you guys have come to?

39:32

So when we're looking at, and this

39:35

is from the study in these last two years, white

39:38

and black Christians are so fundamentally

39:40

far apart, and this is partly why the original

39:42

book was called divided by faith because white

39:44

and blacks in this country are quite

39:47

divided, but white and black Christians

39:49

are more divided on every measure

39:52

we look at. And that's why we had to find,

39:54

well , what is it about the faith themselves? That's driving

39:56

them further apart for

39:58

Asians. What we're finding now is that

40:00

they so closely mirror,

40:03

white, Christian , white , Asian,

40:05

Christians, closely mirror, white

40:08

Christians on almost all these things. It

40:11

makes sense when we talk, what I just talked

40:13

about about this kind of becoming honorary white,

40:15

maybe being flexed into the white group

40:18

when needed, they are

40:20

acting in thinking very much like white Hispanics

40:23

are much closer to African American .

40:25

Yeah, man. Um,

40:28

and this, this face out , I just

40:30

wanted to make sure we , I got the quote . So

40:33

evangelicals usually fail

40:36

to challenge the system, not just

40:38

out of concern for evangelism,

40:41

but also because they support the American

40:43

system and enjoy its fruits. They

40:45

share the Protestant work ethic, support,

40:48

laissez, Faire, economics, and

40:51

sometimes fail to evaluate

40:53

whether the social system is consistent

40:56

with their Christianity. Uh,

40:59

do you still agree with that today and why?

41:03

Yeah. I don't think that has changed

41:05

either. Um, so

41:08

that when you think about

41:11

it, that, and I had mentioned this a little bit earlier

41:13

that you have these cultural tools and

41:15

understanding of faith that

41:17

are both deeply held and

41:19

have the consequence of preserving

41:23

and celebrating the country,

41:25

which were in the book I'm working

41:27

on now is called

41:30

the grand betrayal. And it

41:32

is making this argument that white Christianity,

41:36

white Christians have continuously

41:40

and endlessly betrayed their black and

41:43

Hispanic brothers and sisters in the faith. And

41:45

they've done it because of

41:48

the roots by which they

41:50

receive in terms of

41:52

material, reward, respect.

41:54

And so on. In fact, I'm going

41:56

to make the argument that white Christianity,

41:58

and this will be the controversial part at least to some isn't

42:01

Christianity, that we

42:03

did a series of experiments where you could choose between

42:05

whiteness or, or the biblical Christianity

42:08

and whites overwhelmingly would choose

42:11

whiteness when given the opportunity,

42:14

these are white Christians. So I'm going to make

42:16

the argument though , what white Christianity is,

42:18

is the worship of the group itself,

42:20

the white tribe. So well

42:23

, so let's get into it. What opera

42:26

Questions are you asking

42:30

To come to these conclusions? Cause [inaudible]

42:33

,

42:34

You know, those of us who, who

42:36

retort size for a living, but do no

42:38

data with it. We would, we

42:40

would agree with that conclusion and

42:43

shout it to the heavens, but like you're

42:46

actually doing the work

42:48

that goes behind the conclusion. What

42:51

are you operationally doing to come to these conclusions?

42:54

Yeah. Thanks for asking. So I'll

42:56

give you two examples. Um, one

42:59

is that we are, we

43:01

gave people a chance to express

43:04

emotion. So part of

43:06

, uh, understanding race is not just,

43:08

you know, what do you think on the issue, but how do you feel

43:10

about these ? So we had a series

43:13

of questions. We did a national

43:15

survey of about 3000 Americans

43:19

after them, Christian half, not racially

43:21

diverse on purpose, so we could compare

43:24

and we would ask things like, and this is the examples

43:26

of the feeling questions. Uh, what

43:29

do you feel when you hear the word

43:32

black power? What do you feel

43:34

when you hear the word reparation ? And

43:36

then we let people respond? Why

43:39

here's what we found white

43:42

Christians get angry.

43:44

In fact, that was the number one word angry.

43:47

And usually they'd write these things in all caps.

43:49

So they were doing this online so we can see how

43:51

they're and with exclamation

43:54

points. And this is ridiculous.

43:56

And it really, you

43:58

can see the intensity of the feeling. The

44:01

second example is this. We asked

44:04

a series back, it was four questions

44:06

about the Bible. Uh , so

44:09

let me set this up for people listening. We

44:12

first asked people, do you believe the

44:14

Bible should be used to determine

44:16

right and wrong? And if they said,

44:18

yes, I believe it should be used to determine right

44:21

and wrong. Then we asked them the next four

44:23

questions. These questions were designed.

44:25

So that three of them are asking

44:27

you about other groups. And

44:30

one of them is asking about a personal morality

44:33

issue. So that one about personal morality

44:35

is the Bible says not to use it in wholesome words,

44:37

therefore it's wrong to use cuss

44:40

words. So what we would do is we would give

44:42

a Bible verse. We'd actually say

44:44

where it's from. And then we would

44:46

repeat it just as I did. The

44:49

Bible says not to use unwholesome words, therefore it's

44:51

wrong to use unwholesome words. Do you agree or

44:53

disagree? The other

44:55

three were about, as I said, other groups,

44:57

one is about welcoming the

44:59

foreigner and the stranger. So about immigration.

45:02

Another was about , um, the, the first

45:05

, uh , ethnic conflict that we see in acts,

45:07

right? Where the , uh,

45:10

what was it? The, the Greeks were saying our widows

45:12

are not getting the same amount of food and

45:14

you remember the brilliant solution then, okay.

45:16

Then let's put, reach and power to make sure

45:19

you get enough food. So then we said, that's what we

45:21

should do. Right. Just repeat it. Okay.

45:24

The findings here's, here's, what's interesting

45:26

on the one about , uh, using

45:28

unwholesome words, the majority

45:31

of Christians, no matter what racial group, they agree,

45:33

that's what the Bible says. But

45:35

on the other three questions that had to do with other

45:37

groups, the majority

45:40

of black and Hispanic Christians

45:42

agreed. That's what the Bible says, but

45:45

for white and usually for Asian, never more

45:47

than a third agreed.

45:49

That's what the Bible said. So we followed

45:52

up like , okay,

45:54

well, if you don't think that's what the Bible says,

45:56

we're just repeating what the Bible says, why

45:59

? And then there, you see the defense

46:01

mechanisms coming. Well, you'd have to look at the context.

46:04

And , um , the one on immigration

46:06

was really interesting cause they said, well, the Bible is referring

46:08

to legal immigration. Then I will

46:10

not ever support illegal immigration, which

46:13

is what really is happening here. And we have

46:15

to fight that. And so, yeah,

46:18

Man , this is fascinating.

46:21

Oh man, we , we gotta talk

46:23

when that book comes out. I like to talk about

46:26

it. Um , this

46:30

is interesting that you say this because getting

46:33

ready for this interview, I

46:35

was thinking where I would land

46:38

as a black person who

46:40

happens to evangelize. Uh,

46:44

we, I think we think that

46:47

evangelism and

46:50

fulfilling the great commission is

46:52

a thing we ought to do and we're

46:54

involved in it, but

46:57

I almost, but everything outside

46:59

of that, that might sometimes keep us

47:02

from engaging injustice has

47:04

to deal, not so much with,

47:08

you know, being an American per

47:10

se, but in

47:12

, during suffering.

47:15

Well, so where I find

47:18

more kinship, not with , uh

47:21

, white American Christians, I find

47:23

more kinship with Christians

47:25

who are suffering all around the world, whatever

47:28

the color of their skin. So

47:30

that I'm, I feel like I'm in a,

47:33

I'm a nation within a nation. And

47:35

so our discussions are

47:37

always, should we

47:39

engage with that other nation

47:42

and quote unquote waste time

47:45

when we could be, you know , um,

47:49

uh , helping each other and growing with one

47:52

another, or should

47:54

we be a part of the struggle

47:56

that we see everyone else go through? And

47:58

it's so fascinating how,

48:01

you know, the , the culture completes

48:04

white evangelical Christianity

48:07

and we see it almost as the world

48:09

that the thing that's opposing us. Hmm

48:12

. Very interesting. Um, I

48:15

read your article, goodbye Christ . I've

48:17

got justice duty. I

48:19

agree with a lot of results. I

48:22

read anecdotes. What challenged me was

48:24

this man, are we sure that

48:26

the people that , that

48:29

these people were introduced to Orthodox

48:32

Christian faith, that the gospel was preached,

48:34

they heard it, they believed it. I

48:38

mean, what , what do you, what

48:40

did he say to that? Because that's the first thing

48:42

that I thought about the people who are , and I guess

48:44

I should have set it up. People are

48:47

leaving these churches , uh

48:49

, white evangelical churches. Uh,

48:52

and I guess you even made the argument that black

48:54

people might be also leaving their churches,

48:56

which is true. Um, and

49:00

that justice, wow.

49:05

A noble endeavor and

49:08

should, and an endeavor that should

49:10

be part of the Christian understanding

49:12

and faith to seek justice,

49:15

that we should never put it over Jesus. And

49:17

so I say that to

49:20

ask this question, do we

49:22

think these people left Christianity

49:26

or did they live like leave Christiandom

49:29

?

49:30

Great question. So, yeah, just again,

49:32

this was a , just a little , uh,

49:35

basically opinion piece that was in Christianity today

49:37

recently. And it's my observation

49:40

of watching people

49:43

that are in Christian churches coming to

49:45

realize we live in an injust

49:47

unjust world and they

49:49

start getting involved in justice work and

49:53

slowly but surely, and sometimes more

49:55

fast, they, they

49:58

drift away from churches. They drift away

50:00

from Christian faith and they're just

50:02

done with it. In fact, they often can become anti-Christian

50:04

. So your question is, well, are we

50:06

sure that they were actually

50:09

introduced to the real Christian faith? And I

50:12

would have to say they were not the

50:14

real Christian faith. They would understand justices

50:17

absolutely core. I mean, you, if you did

50:19

any study of the Bible, that word comes up.

50:22

So often that God's

50:24

saying I am a lover of justice

50:27

profits , constantly railing because of the

50:29

injustice and the so

50:32

on and so forth. So if they see justice

50:34

and Jesus, as in conflict, then they

50:36

haven't known true Christianity.

50:41

Do you think articles

50:43

like this? Cause I, I saw , uh,

50:48

an assessor ed Stetser

50:50

react to this. Do you think

50:55

when white Kristin dumb, I

50:57

don't want to say Kristen's

50:59

Kristen dumb reads an article

51:01

like this. Their reaction

51:03

is, ah, guys, just

51:05

come on home. We'll figure it out. This,

51:09

that the article may perpetuate

51:12

a feeling of, Hey,

51:15

maybe not that we white

51:18

Christian dumb a vindicated, but

51:20

that is safe for you guys to come home.

51:23

And the reason why I ask that is that

51:26

the person who is thinking about

51:28

coming home is probably

51:30

asking the question back. Well,

51:33

what are we going to do when I come home?

51:35

I mean, are we just gonna continue

51:37

to do what we're doing? Or are we going

51:40

to forge a new path? Yeah.

51:43

And I say a little bit in there,

51:45

the answer isn't to leave Christendom, you

51:48

may find that you have to leave white Christianity,

51:50

but the answer then is to find healthy black churches,

51:53

multi-racial churches, immigrant churches, and

51:56

find true Christianity, right. Christianity

51:58

that actually says justice matters.

52:10

Where were you when you heard about

52:14

what happened to George Floyd and

52:16

what were your feelings?

52:20

It was like probably so many people, right? Cause of the pandemic

52:22

I was in my home and I

52:25

was upstairs , uh, having a snack.

52:28

Uh , and uh , one of my children came up and

52:30

said, did you hear what happened? I said, no,

52:32

what happened? They said it happened. We

52:35

have most of our family lives in the twin

52:37

cities area. So it was like, something happened

52:39

big at home, came

52:41

down into our basement where we have our television

52:44

saw just a glimpse of the video

52:48

We were being. I couldn't, I could not keep

52:51

watching it. I did not watch it all. And

52:53

I remember thinking, Oh my gosh, we're

52:55

going to explode. I've been saying for the last five

52:58

years or so, our country has become

53:01

so unequal in terms of wealth. When

53:03

you look at, while it just keep the gap, just keep getting

53:06

bigger and bigger. And I said, there is no evidence anywhere

53:08

of country having this much racial

53:11

wealth gap that doesn't explode.

53:14

So this was,

53:16

This was going to be it because the

53:18

power of the visual is

53:20

much larger than any words

53:22

could be.

53:23

So let me ask this, I

53:26

mean, let's go, we come back to this.

53:29

When you say racial wealth gap,

53:31

what do you mean by that? And how are you coming

53:34

to that conclusion that there is

53:37

a widening racial wealth

53:39

gap.

53:40

Yeah, because we've been tracking it for many

53:43

decades and that's just everything you own

53:45

and then subtract everything you owe . What

53:47

do you got left? That's your wealth. So

53:50

when we were first doing this in the most

53:53

detail, starting in the 1980s

53:55

, the gap was huge.

53:57

It was whites had 10 times

53:59

the wealth as black Americans,

54:02

nine times, as well as Hispanic American

54:04

, that gap is more

54:06

than doubled today. Every time

54:08

we look at it, it gets bigger. And it's because the

54:11

more money you have, the more money you can make,

54:13

right? You can invest it. You keep. And

54:15

I do. Uh , I study

54:18

a lot as do my graduate students about what

54:20

happens in the way that we build wealth

54:23

as middle class Americans, it's through home ownership

54:25

and white neighborhoods make way

54:27

more money. In fact, a study just

54:30

came out from my grad students. They're not professors,

54:32

but like a week ago. And

54:34

what they did is since 1980, what's

54:37

happened to the appraised values of homes in white

54:39

neighborhoods and black neighborhoods, white neighborhoods

54:42

have increased $200,000 more

54:44

in black neighborhoods. That means they

54:47

just added $200,000 of their, what their

54:49

wealth that African Americans did not

54:51

get.

54:52

Yeah. And so you

54:54

think some of this is behind

54:57

the explosion that we're seeing in

54:59

light of what happened to George

55:01

Florida? Absolutely. Um,

55:05

so in seeing this , what do you

55:07

think should

55:11

be the response of

55:17

our nation to these

55:19

events

55:23

We need to do what other countries have done that

55:25

have made some progress. And

55:27

that is form a truth and reconciliation

55:29

commission have

55:32

testimony both historically

55:35

and contemporary of what

55:37

has happened, how people have suffered, how people

55:39

have gained and then figure

55:41

out how to make retribution

55:45

for that reparations,

55:48

whatever it takes. We cannot keep

55:50

pretending and saying, well, we just

55:52

need to move on. Let's let's be friends. Let's

55:54

move on, is not going to work.

55:56

It hasn't worked. I mean, how can we think

55:58

if it hasn't worked to this date, that

56:01

more, the same is going to get us anywhere.

56:05

Uh, when you say truth and reconciliation,

56:07

they did this in South Africa. Yeah

56:10

. Some would say some

56:12

would argue, well,

56:15

will it work here? If

56:19

the result , I mean, there's still a

56:21

gap in, in wealth

56:24

in South Africa, somewhat argue, would it

56:26

work here? What would your response

56:28

be?

56:29

I would say, look at any country, that's done

56:31

it and learn from them. What worked

56:33

and what didn't work. What's improved the process,

56:36

but we need to have that process. We have

56:38

to have a space

56:41

where people can speak, where people can

56:43

see the

56:45

results of what we've done. What we get

56:48

now , right. Is George

56:50

Floyd, blips, and then counter

56:52

movements in resistance

56:54

to it. We're not dialoguing,

56:57

we're not cataloging and putting down

56:59

or official record what has happened.

57:03

We have to,

57:05

For those church men out there is truth

57:07

and reconciliation, just

57:12

the structure of it. And, and the practice

57:14

of it is that something Christians

57:17

is that Christian or is that, you

57:19

know, some type of critical race

57:22

theory

57:23

Is Christian, right? The truth shall set

57:26

you free. We are not free. We

57:28

are not, we are tied up with the devil

57:30

and his lies. And until we will willing

57:33

to tell the truth to each other, we

57:35

don't have reconciliation where we are. We are called

57:38

a reconciliation and ultimately we are

57:40

called to be one. So

57:42

this is truly gospel work. We

57:44

can't be resisting this. We've got

57:46

to do it.

57:49

Um, you know, it's , it's

57:52

interesting that you came to the conclusion

57:54

of us having a truth

57:56

and reconciliation. I

57:58

think in my own just

58:00

journey. I think that seems

58:03

like everyone's talking around it,

58:05

but I think you've been the first to say,

58:07

we need, I

58:10

hear reparations. We need this, we need

58:12

that. But like the core of that,

58:15

which leads to all that is a

58:18

truth and reconciliation committee.

58:21

But in saying that, what is

58:24

the church's role in that

58:26

response? First of all, you know

58:28

that you do the sociological work

58:30

here, you see the divide. I

58:32

mean, how do we get there if we've got

58:35

no unity within, within ourselves.

58:40

That's why I think we, like I say, if we don't

58:42

start with enabled to just listen

58:44

to each other, often people ask, okay,

58:47

so what can we do about this? Right . My

58:49

first thing is we have

58:51

to actually just trust each other. So

58:54

if, if you say to me,

58:56

I'm experiencing racism, my

58:59

first reaction can not be, no, you're not. It

59:02

can't be defensive. Like why are you call me a racist?

59:05

It needs to be, tell me more about

59:07

that. My fellow brother in

59:09

Christ, I need to know more what's happening.

59:12

I have to start from that basis of trust.

59:15

I live for a year in Denmark.

59:18

Denmark has the highest level of social

59:20

trust in the world. And it is unbelievable

59:22

what you can do in a society. When

59:25

you trust each other, how much money

59:27

you save insecurity

59:30

and all these things you have to do, how much

59:32

you save in efficiency and having

59:35

that not have so much time spent in drawing

59:37

up contracts that specify

59:39

every possibility of how you could

59:41

cheat and how you can actually

59:43

talk to each other. If you come from the starting

59:46

point of trust, that the person

59:48

across from me or the group across from me

59:52

once a good life, just like I want a good life.

59:54

And they're saying they're experiencing difficulty.

59:57

Then let's work together. Why is that

1:00:00

so hard? It's because the

1:00:02

devil has tricked us. We

1:00:04

have bought into the lie that

1:00:06

I am an opposition to a fellow group.

1:00:08

Even when they are fellow believers. That's

1:00:11

what blows my mind. We , how

1:00:13

can we do that? But we do it constantly.

1:00:15

It's gotta stop operationally

1:00:19

when you,

1:00:20

I hear often the

1:00:23

black church and a white church must come

1:00:25

together. I

1:00:28

believe that in a sense,

1:00:31

But from a sociologist

1:00:34

perspective,

1:00:36

Is that practical. And if it is, how

1:00:38

do we, how do we actually do it?

1:00:41

Yeah. Well, it , in what it

1:00:43

means, two different things. Again, in our divided

1:00:45

world for white set means let's let's,

1:00:49

I will confess and you accept my

1:00:51

apology and we move on. And

1:00:53

for African Americans that often means are

1:00:56

, hold on a minute, I always use this example. If

1:00:59

I came, installed your TV, and

1:01:01

then I feel guilty about after a while or

1:01:03

something. And I say, Hey, I'm

1:01:06

really sorry about that. Can we, would you forgive

1:01:08

me? And could we move on? And you know, let's

1:01:10

come together. Well, of course, you're going

1:01:12

to say , um , if you give me that TV

1:01:14

back first, maybe we can have that discussion. Uh,

1:01:19

so that's what I'm saying until we have that

1:01:21

discussion, we have to stop saying, Oh,

1:01:23

it wasn't me. It was people in the past

1:01:25

that are no longer here. It doesn't matter

1:01:27

if it was people in the past. They're no longer here we

1:01:29

are benefiting or suffering from it

1:01:31

a day. It will continue.

1:01:34

We , I gave you one example, which is the wealth gap,

1:01:36

which just keeps getting bigger. So

1:01:38

that's real. That's happening right

1:01:40

now. If we don't stop

1:01:42

it, we don't have any chance

1:01:45

at unity and reconciliation. Well,

1:01:48

we've got a ,

1:01:50

Which leads me to another question we've got in

1:01:52

the middle of black and white. We've got Asians,

1:01:55

we've got Hispanics, we've

1:01:58

got a multiplicity of

1:02:00

people who live in this America.

1:02:03

I mean, why would this be

1:02:07

Important for them to be a part of?

1:02:09

I mean, it just seems like they're caught

1:02:11

The middle. Yeah. Like imagine

1:02:13

if, you know, if you're an immigrant from say

1:02:15

Peru and you've been here for six years, like

1:02:17

this is saying , what does got to do with me?

1:02:19

I'm just trying to make a living, but

1:02:22

anybody that's living in the society and wants

1:02:24

to stay here, you have to care

1:02:26

because it does affect us all it shapes.

1:02:29

I mean, you see that what's happening

1:02:31

in our country right now. Are any of

1:02:33

us not impacted by what's

1:02:36

happening in our streets? Not we are all

1:02:38

impacted. We have to care. Um,

1:02:42

last question.

1:02:44

What would your action plan

1:02:46

be for black

1:02:48

pastor in the foot for someone like

1:02:50

me trying to be a help

1:02:53

to the body of Christ and his country,

1:02:56

would there be something educationally? I

1:02:58

mean, what, what would you, what

1:03:01

would you suggest?

1:03:03

Okay. A couple things. And one

1:03:09

of the things I've come to write is , um , this

1:03:11

sounds funny, but I think

1:03:14

in many ways, all

1:03:16

people who want to see progress

1:03:18

and change, we're sort of stabbing

1:03:21

in the dark. Like I can remember,

1:03:23

you know, in the late sixties and such the answer

1:03:26

was, well, if we could elect black mayors and

1:03:28

, uh , you know, Windera

1:03:31

thought if we could have a black president, but

1:03:33

we've had those continue to

1:03:35

have black mayors and it

1:03:37

doesn't make the problems go away. I mean, in

1:03:39

Chicago, we have a black mayor and a black chief

1:03:42

of police, and they're

1:03:45

being accused of being racist and creating a

1:03:47

system that is unfair. Right? So

1:03:51

I say that to say, we keep

1:03:53

trying things. Someone gave me the illustration.

1:03:55

Once of we have a onion and we

1:03:58

peel away a layer and we think that's a solution.

1:04:00

But to only define that there's yet another layer

1:04:02

and another layer. So we have to keep crying until

1:04:04

we find the African

1:04:06

American church has always excelled

1:04:08

in bringing hope to

1:04:11

African American parishioners, to

1:04:14

bringing a sense of worth

1:04:17

in a, in a society that basically tells you every

1:04:19

day that you are not of equal worth. I

1:04:22

can't think of anything more fundamental and

1:04:25

in the Christian message than that, a

1:04:27

place of organizing for justice

1:04:30

and getting people to exercise their voice.

1:04:33

So that's one, I think another

1:04:35

one huge. And I think you are particularly gifted

1:04:37

at this, is that

1:04:41

there to have any kind of discussion

1:04:43

at all to begin white

1:04:47

pastors, white leaders need,

1:04:49

they're looking for willing

1:04:51

partners African-Americans that would be

1:04:53

willing to speak to them. Uh , and yeah,

1:04:58

I think as

1:05:01

I've seen you , uh , you have that gift.

1:05:04

You have a particular gift of putting people at ease

1:05:07

that they can get to a point of trusting and then

1:05:09

hearing the messages

1:05:11

that you have to bring. That's where we have to get

1:05:13

to. So we need people like you to do that. Mmm

1:05:18

.

1:05:19

Last question. And it's a pushback,

1:05:21

first of all, thank you. Um, I

1:05:24

, I thank you for the compliment. There

1:05:27

are some people who would say we've been

1:05:29

having conversations every

1:05:32

time a hashtag happens. We have

1:05:34

a conversation and

1:05:38

nothing seems to get , uh

1:05:40

, worked out. What would you say

1:05:42

to that? Is it we're not having the right type

1:05:44

of conversations. Cause that's what it

1:05:46

seems like. I hear you saying,

1:05:49

we , we kind of have the confession,

1:05:51

Hey accept. And we move on, but we're not

1:05:54

having the right type of conversations

1:05:56

that actually bring healing .

1:05:59

Yeah. Well, we're having the wrong one cause it has no

1:06:01

teeth in it. So what I'm, that's why I'm saying, when

1:06:03

you have a formal truth and reconciliation, it's formed

1:06:06

with the specific goal

1:06:08

that it's going to bring change. And we're

1:06:10

going to specify through discussion

1:06:12

through people, witnessing their own experience.

1:06:15

What has to change

1:06:17

You and I are familiar with truth

1:06:20

and reconciliation for

1:06:23

those who this may be the first

1:06:25

time they heard this concept, how

1:06:28

does that actually play out in,

1:06:31

you know, operationally? I mean paint the picture.

1:06:34

Hmm . Uh , and so I may be

1:06:36

butchering how it's done like in South

1:06:38

Africa, but you , uh,

1:06:41

you have officials who actually

1:06:43

have power to make changes and

1:06:45

they sit there and they listen to

1:06:47

people who come up and tell their stories,

1:06:50

tell how their family has been harmed by racism,

1:06:53

how their own experiences and

1:06:55

all of that is documented. Those

1:06:58

folks can ask for what would they need

1:07:00

to get over their hurt? What would they need

1:07:02

to get over the wealth

1:07:04

that's been taken from them and

1:07:06

their families? And the

1:07:08

idea is supposed to be one, it's a healing

1:07:10

process because we are, we

1:07:13

have people being able to share their hurt. We

1:07:15

have people that are listening to it,

1:07:18

but it only matters if you then take the next

1:07:20

steps. And as you pointed out, like in South

1:07:22

Africa, they have yet to take all the steps they need. So

1:07:25

they've got a long ways to go, but it has

1:07:27

to be the next steps. Be those

1:07:30

next steps have to be. And

1:07:32

this is where get controversial, right? Those

1:07:34

who have gained are going to have to give up some so

1:07:36

that those who have suffered have

1:07:38

some more, if one is standing on a table,

1:07:40

one standing on the ground, we're both going to have to

1:07:42

move so we can stand on a chair. We're going

1:07:45

to have to meet in the middle. It's

1:07:47

there's not enough resources to say all that

1:07:49

I have. I hope everybody else can

1:07:51

have it too. It's going to have to actually

1:07:53

be some sharing. Yeah.

1:07:56

You asked power sharing, wealth

1:07:58

sharing. This is, this

1:08:00

is the crux of it. It is.

1:08:04

Hmm . Well, dr. Emerson , I

1:08:06

thank you for your time. We are going

1:08:08

to do this again, and I hope it's around

1:08:11

the discussion of your new book. Uh,

1:08:14

this has been enlightening.

1:08:16

I've got other questions. Maybe we'll do

1:08:18

it again just to do it again, but

1:08:21

uh, thank you for your time.

1:08:24

Spend time with you. Appreciate [inaudible]

1:08:49

.