0:10

Okay, kinfolk folk . How are you today,

0:12

man? I've got Steven

0:15

G

0:16

Look with me. We're going to have a conversation

0:18

around calling. Let me let you know

0:20

a little bit about Stephen man

0:22

. Right now. He is

0:25

a fundraiser at the Oklahoma

0:27

city university law school.

0:29

He's been there since 2016.

0:32

He supervises law school, fundraising,

0:35

alumni engagement, marketing events.

0:38

Uh, he was formally the director of law associates

0:40

at Pepperdine university. Uh,

0:43

previously he was a grant writer

0:45

and organizer. He was like a

0:47

real life. Barack Obama for

0:50

the industrial areas foundation

0:52

in Los Angeles in Dallas , uh,

0:54

where he worked with partners, churches,

0:57

and other , um , organizations

0:59

in the community to create solutions

1:01

to the lack of healthcare options. In South

1:03

Los Angeles, he dealt with the

1:06

subprime mortgage crisis and challenges

1:08

facing public schools. And as

1:10

an organizer, he worked with

1:13

the leader of the Massachusetts based

1:15

algebra project and Los

1:17

Angeles unified school district to create

1:19

an algebra project cohort cohort

1:23

at the Crenshaw high school. Man, we're going

1:25

to talk about , uh,

1:28

all of that , um, as we deal with

1:30

Colin , but first let me introduce to you , uh,

1:33

introduce us , um , and , uh, reintroduced

1:36

to other Steven G. Butler . Steven

1:38

what's up, man. Good to see you Patrick.

1:41

Long time, long time, long

1:43

time, man. Um, man, I,

1:46

we want to set up this conversation

1:48

around the idea of calling Genesis

1:51

a one and 28 from the Bible

1:54

talks about being fruitful.

1:56

Well he tells Adam, Hey man, listen,

1:59

this is what I want you to do. I want you to be fruitful,

2:02

multiply and fill the earth.

2:04

Well, most of us understand being fruitful.

2:06

Multiply. If you got two kids,

2:09

like my brother , uh, does, and

2:12

I was about to let one go, if

2:14

you might have one on the way like

2:17

myself, I'm blessed. Hopefully

2:20

my wife does it edit this, but Hey

2:23

man, I can't let us to me right now. Uh,

2:26

I feel good about it. I don't know what the sex

2:28

is by the way. Um, but um,

2:32

we can talk about that too. Uh,

2:35

so , uh, we

2:39

had so happy about this vet . I

2:41

was like , okay so sorry. So we know

2:44

that it Genesis one 28 , um

2:46

, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth.

2:48

We know that being fruitful, multiply beings

2:51

, having kids, but we always

2:54

skip that next little phrase, which is,

2:56

and feel the earth. We

2:59

know it can't mean have

3:01

more babies cause he just told you

3:04

be fruitful, multiply. So

3:06

that's gotta be about kids, but what's

3:08

this field , the earth. And

3:11

if you read the context and we ain't got a bunch

3:13

of time , what he's essentially saying

3:15

is take this raw material

3:18

of the garden. Uh,

3:20

cause Adam is , uh , is , uh , is

3:23

a gardener . He's a husband

3:25

, uh, you know, in the classical

3:27

sense of the word and in the modern

3:29

sense of the word, take the raw materials

3:31

of this world. And I want

3:34

you to cultivate take this garden

3:36

and turn it into a paradise, take this

3:38

garden and feel the earth, take

3:40

this garden, the raw materials

3:42

of the gifts and skills and talents I've

3:44

given you and make

3:46

a kingdom out of it, Adam. And

3:48

so that mandate does

3:51

it just go for Adam? It goes to

3:53

all Adam's descendants through Jesus

3:55

Christ and so that we

3:58

all have callings and

4:00

all have a divine gift

4:03

responsibility that

4:06

God has placed in us. And

4:08

it's not just for the folk who preach

4:10

and teach on Sundays. So

4:13

we're with my brother and I want to examine his

4:15

calling. So , um, you

4:17

know, be it accounting or Archer , archery

4:20

or artistry, these are all

4:22

important because so many people

4:24

think that you're just called to work in a church.

4:27

And that , um,

4:29

the other things that people do are just

4:31

quote unquote jobs. And so

4:34

I want to , uh, go to my brother

4:36

and asked him the first question do

4:38

you feel called and

4:41

why? Yes,

4:44

I do feel called. Um,

4:48

it's not necessarily vocation.

4:51

So, you know, I haven't worked

4:53

with Catholic parishes in

4:56

my organizing days. You

4:58

know, I am familiar with vocation

5:00

and how we've taken that

5:02

into a job when it,

5:04

when it really means so much more.

5:07

But I do feel , uh, called

5:09

in what I do because so much

5:11

of what I do is

5:14

, uh , how God has

5:16

built me right in

5:18

that I am a social person. Uh,

5:21

and fundraising allows me to be

5:23

social, allows me to be strategic.

5:26

It allows me to do , uh

5:29

, the work of helping people, right.

5:32

Um, you can

5:34

have a great project or a great cause.

5:37

Um, but without the money , uh,

5:40

if it falls by the wayside,

5:42

right? Uh , and I'm forgetting

5:45

the poly line

5:47

about that in his beautiful struggle album

5:49

where he talks about, you know, great , you

5:51

know , you got these great non-profits , but they have no

5:53

idea about how to raise money. And so it's

5:56

done for man. You

5:58

can have vision, but you need provision

6:00

behind.

6:03

And that, that is

6:03

Good one. Right. Um,

6:07

so yes, first off I

6:09

do feel called , uh

6:11

, in what I do and I'm thankful for it because

6:14

of all the things that I did before

6:16

, uh, law

6:19

school , um,

6:21

community organizing and,

6:24

and meeting with people and doing individual

6:27

meetings and learning about their self-interest are

6:30

things that I use in, in

6:32

this, you know , season right

6:34

now. It's funny,

6:37

as you were talking about calling, I was like,

6:39

man, part of me is

6:42

feeling like, do we take this a whole other

6:44

direction? Because I'm

6:46

just looking at listening

6:51

to what you're talking about, how God tells

6:53

us to, to , uh , be fruitful

6:56

, uh, fill the earth.

7:00

Um, but at that time,

7:02

the , the , the context was the garden

7:05

of Eden and just how

7:07

, um, mean

7:11

God being omniscient and

7:13

existing outside of time and space,

7:16

you know, speaking beyond

7:18

what that was existed.

7:22

Right. And okay. Be,

7:24

you know , uh, be fruitful, multiply

7:26

and fill the earth. Right. But , but God,

7:29

We , we talking about this garden, I'm looking

7:30

At this. I can , I mean, we now

7:33

Know how big the earth is

7:37

And not withstanding God's ability. So

7:40

was he going to

7:40

Expand the garden of Eden at the fall

7:43

Didn't happen. And so the

7:45

gardening,

7:46

It goes beyond Africa and it goes

7:48

into your Asia and Alaska

7:51

and North and South Korea,

7:53

Erica , or it's guys saying, yeah,

7:55

it'd be fruitful, multiply because y'all gonna mess

7:57

this up. Yeah. And

7:59

this command then speaks

8:02

to go forth and make disciples,

8:05

which y'all are going to get in a few millennia

8:08

later. Right. You know what I mean? You

8:11

see, it just, it builds

8:13

out itself and it's like, wait, he,

8:15

he's not that that command

8:17

hasn't stopped happening.

8:20

And it doesn't, and it's even extra

8:22

Christian , uh , regardless

8:24

of Christianity, whether you believe

8:27

in Jesus or not, right. Every

8:29

time somebody has a child, every

8:31

time a scientist comes up with a new development,

8:35

every time a new organization is

8:37

born and it's

8:39

thriving, literally

8:42

echoing doing, you

8:44

know, the fruitful, multiply and feeling

8:46

, right. The only difference is, are

8:48

you going to give them the credit or not? But

8:51

we all do it. Yeah, no

8:53

. I mean, so it was funny. And then we

8:56

will go wherever you, I mean, cause

8:58

you've got a vision in the, in

9:00

the podcast and you're curating and you're

9:02

, there are things that you're, that you're seeking

9:04

to, to lift up and, and

9:07

there's a trajectory for, but as you were saying,

9:09

this , I'm like, man, that's a whole other word right there.

9:11

Just the omniscience of

9:14

God and just how the

9:17

pro funder the , of his wisdom, right.

9:19

Like go multiply

9:21

and fill the earth. But

9:24

all you know of earth is the garden of Eden.

9:26

Right. And you know, in

9:28

a few years, right, you

9:30

gonna have these kids , uh,

9:32

or not even a few years, like we

9:35

don't know how long, how long that period of time

9:37

was between this command in

9:39

the fall. Right. And

9:42

dah, dah, dah, all these things that come afterwards.

9:44

But right now let's go ahead and fill the earth

9:47

and I'm gonna give you some more later once you can handle that.

9:50

Right. And that's,

9:53

that seems to speak to you in a certain way. I mean,

9:55

what, what, what are you feeling when

9:57

you hear that? Um,

10:00

I just, I

10:02

, uh, I've been thankful. I've been fortunate

10:05

and I'm thankful for what God has given

10:07

me because yes, I come out of

10:09

the Christian tradition and

10:12

the Baptist tradition. Right. But

10:14

I've worked with Catholics, I've worked

10:16

with other Protestant denominations. I've worked

10:18

with, with

10:20

, um, with

10:23

, uh, people, the, of

10:26

Judaism and the Abrahamic faith.

10:29

Um, my father-in-law

10:31

and his wife are , uh , Muslim.

10:34

And so I've, I've, I've

10:37

have all these things around me. Right.

10:39

Your grandfather was a preacher too, right? No

10:43

SU no, my grandfather wasn't. Um,

10:47

my, I have one grandfather, my mother's

10:49

father who was a deacon. And then my

10:51

father's father , uh, was

10:53

definitely not a preacher, but was

10:57

a man who , um , made some changes

10:59

in his life later on. Um,

11:03

just you talk about

11:05

my stubbornness, my son's stubbornness

11:08

, uh, my grandfather

11:10

on my father's side, who was the one I was really close

11:13

to , uh, had cancer, fought

11:15

cancer a couple of times and

11:17

, uh , was a smoker and dropped

11:19

cold Turkey back in like

11:21

1988 or so, because

11:24

he said he wanted to see me and my sister grow

11:26

up to be adults, just, I

11:28

want to see them live. Right. So I'm gonna

11:30

stop smoking that ain't typically the type

11:32

of thing that people just be like, yeah, I'm going to get rid

11:34

of these cools or these Charleston's or whatever

11:36

it was back in the day. Cause I remember

11:38

going to the store, walking to the store with him and

11:41

Tyler attaches to get their cigarette T and

11:43

my grandmother. And he said, you

11:45

know, the guy get this cancer. I want to live

11:47

and, and cold Turkey.

11:49

So definitely a man who believed

11:51

in God and , um, and,

11:54

and, and was faithful but not approved . Uh,

11:57

uh, cause I want to get into more into your background

12:00

and trying to understand,

12:03

you know, why you , you

12:05

know, the different avenues you

12:07

went, what was it? Um,

12:10

what did you, when, when you first , uh,

12:13

thought about what you wanted to do with

12:16

your life way back in, you

12:18

know, elementary school doing

12:20

your high, whenever that happened for you, what

12:23

did you want to do? I wanted

12:25

to be a stockbroker because

12:29

my father threw that out there. So I

12:32

have the multiple influences in

12:34

my life. My father and my mother are

12:36

the biggest ones parents divorced in 1989,

12:39

but I remember being , uh,

12:42

mid eighties. Um,

12:46

my father mentioned him being a stockbroker

12:48

. And so , uh,

12:50

that was something that stayed with me. And

12:53

, uh, you know, later on, it's

12:55

funny, I want it to be a standup comedian and

12:58

I used to watch the Def

13:00

jam when I probably shouldn't have been

13:03

shouldn't have been like, so from the

13:05

very first season with Martin and

13:07

you know, him blowing up while he was doing

13:09

Def comedy jam and having this television

13:12

show , uh, I remember watching

13:14

Sinbad's , uh, brain

13:16

damage and son

13:19

of a preacher, man. I just loved comedy. Right. So

13:21

these various iterations. Right. But

13:24

graduating high school. Um, did

13:26

you ever, before you go, did you ever do

13:29

stand up? Did you ever? No . No,

13:31

but every once in a while I'll think like, man,

13:33

if I had to put together a little set, what would I go

13:36

with ? You know, what I want to joke on?

13:38

Did you ever try set? No.

13:41

No, I haven't . What

13:43

was funny is , uh, our mutual

13:45

friend, Tim and I talk about that sometimes.

13:47

Right. And then I listened to these podcasts.

13:50

Matter of fact, when I was driving into Euston yesterday

13:52

, um, I

13:55

was listening to a Mark Mirren interview,

13:58

Eddie Murphy. Right. So , uh,

14:00

I still love, love comedians

14:02

and just , uh, I

14:05

guess to some extent I'm still a student of comedy.

14:07

Right. So , uh, I

14:09

think we all enjoy laughing.

14:11

Right? So even in my engagement

14:14

in talking with folks , uh,

14:16

in raising money, right. Um,

14:20

you know, people give to causes,

14:22

they give to vision and they give

14:24

to people. Right. And

14:27

uh, if I can give you a good feeling

14:30

about what you're giving

14:32

money to, right. Um,

14:36

that's worthwhile, that's useful. So

14:39

, uh, thought about

14:42

that for a while . Never acted on

14:44

it , uh, got to O U

14:46

M uh, decided to,

14:49

to , uh , get a finance degree. And

14:52

which is what I eventually did. I'm one of those

14:54

people who never changed his major though, we

14:56

know, especially with you and your friends

14:58

in engineering, the people

15:00

who started out in NASBE

15:03

and then like now,

15:07

whatever it is, whatever

15:10

, um, right. Just

15:12

because Thermo or P

15:15

chem or organic was

15:18

hot , whatever it was. So the

15:20

finance was that connected to stockbroking

15:22

or yeah. Yeah. Um,

15:25

my, my dad, I remember him giving

15:27

a book , giving me a book, which I'm sure

15:29

somewhere, either in my house, my mom's house

15:31

or , uh, in a storage unit

15:34

on finance. And , uh, I

15:37

just never changed my degree.

15:39

You know, a couple of years in, I knew I was going to

15:41

law school cause I had a bunch of friends who were

15:43

interested in politics and we

15:46

did student government and , uh,

15:48

I looked around and this is the era of Clinton.

15:51

And , um, course,

15:54

you know, Clinton was a lawyer,

15:56

a lot of senators and

15:58

house members were lawyers. And then of course

16:00

the , the judiciary, a lawyer. So I thought that's

16:03

where you want to create change

16:05

and to have power

16:07

right. Going to law school was worthwhile,

16:09

but I just maintained

16:12

and got my , uh , finance degree

16:15

though. I wish I had gotten more out of it. I kind of tuned

16:17

out after my sophomore

16:20

year into my junior year , uh

16:22

, was much more focused on extra curricular

16:25

and, and um, student

16:27

organizations. But no

16:29

, I can still Lee's

16:32

know that there's a cap M theory and, and

16:34

various economic theories , uh,

16:37

though I , so , uh, they don't have

16:39

a huge amount of relevance to my

16:42

, my current life. Interesting.

16:45

Because you know, when you talked about stockbroking

16:48

and finding, I was thinking about

16:50

the fact that you're from Tulsa and

16:53

black wall street. I don't know why that popped

16:55

up in my mind. No, it's

16:57

crazy. Uh, being from Tulsa

16:59

, um,

17:02

and of course Tulsa is getting a lot more

17:05

, uh , visibility now,

17:07

thanks to watch men and

17:10

this being the hundredth anniversary in

17:12

a few months, but you know, the

17:15

amount of people who left Halsa

17:17

, um, that

17:21

have, that are just changing

17:23

the world are doing amazing things out in the

17:25

world. Uh, but

17:28

have roots back in Tulsa is crazy,

17:30

right? Like John Rogers in Chicago

17:33

who runs Ariel investments, Mellody

17:36

Hobson CEO,

17:38

and, you know, married to George

17:40

Lucas, but right. But he, his roots

17:42

go back to Tulsa and

17:45

his great grandfather leaving grandfather,

17:47

great-grandfather leaving as a result

17:49

of 1921 and the massacre. So

17:53

it's funny. Dad just wanted me , uh,

17:55

coming from East Texas

17:58

of limited means , uh, he

18:00

was an engineer. He was a civil

18:03

who quickly , um,

18:05

moved into management because he saw

18:07

that's where , uh, there

18:09

was money to be made, not necessarily in the

18:12

engineering, but in the management of

18:14

engineers , um, later

18:16

went on to get his MBA. Um,

18:19

he figured that would be a way that

18:21

I could have financial means and

18:24

financial independence. And so I

18:26

listened to him and

18:29

, uh, that was my major. And then

18:31

, uh , you went to law school there,

18:34

the university of Oklahoma , uh,

18:38

automatic . How was that? I

18:40

was good, man. How did that shift

18:42

your perspective about , uh , what

18:44

you felt like you would call to do man?

18:49

Oh, you was phenomenal from the relationships

18:51

in the peep . Right. And

18:54

a couple of the professors, I still keep in contact

18:57

with , um, a

18:59

mentor of mine. Uh , Dr

19:02

. [inaudible] was

19:04

, um , incredible,

19:07

still prays over my life and my family

19:09

and I pray for her. Um,

19:12

Jay Tony is one of my closest friends.

19:15

It's funny. We went to high school together, went

19:17

to college together, but it was because we

19:19

were law school classmates that we really

19:22

became close and a number

19:24

of others, but

19:26

OU was, was incredible because he gave

19:28

me an , a knowledge of the law , um,

19:32

and a foundation. Uh,

19:34

I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I

19:36

thought I wanted to make money and help

19:38

people. Those were my two goals. Right. So

19:41

then I had no, not always hand

19:43

in hand and not always hand in hand, but I was like,

19:46

you know , uh, Willie

19:49

, Gary, Johnnie Cochran being cropped

19:51

right here . I didn't know how it was

19:53

the male , but there was a way to make money. I

19:55

didn't need Willie Gary's jet, but like, if

19:57

there was a way I could make money and help

19:59

people, that's what I wanted to do.

20:02

Uh, and then came out and

20:04

, uh, I didn't go to

20:07

the firm that I had clerked at , um

20:09

, just because I didn't want

20:11

to be in Tulsa and make

20:13

that money. So I came down to Houston

20:15

, um, to live

20:17

with mom and figure it out where,

20:20

where, you know, where I'm actually the same

20:22

place where I'm taping this now , uh, out in

20:24

Katy and , uh, had

20:28

taking the Oklahoma bar to the Texas bar.

20:31

And , um , ultimately

20:33

decided that I didn't want to practice

20:36

law because I got involved with

20:38

community organizing through my church with,

20:40

I , uh , found the industrial

20:42

areas, man, let's slow down

20:45

real quick. What you,

20:47

okay, so your home , uh,

20:50

and I remember this

20:52

time because you know, that, that was the

20:54

time we were all hanging and we were all in

20:56

the same circles. It was good for man. It

20:59

was great fun. One of the funniest

21:01

times. Yeah. It was

21:03

just, it was crazy. You know, it's like

21:07

you all, you think, man, once

21:09

you leave college, you're never gonna see

21:12

be in the same place with most of these people.

21:14

But Houston offered the opportunity

21:17

for us as young men

21:20

Campbell . It was here. Tim came in

21:22

from, from Kansas city and

21:24

Matt Courtney. Um, Steven

21:27

was a , I mean, good hope was just a

21:29

launching pad. We were getting that good

21:31

word from pastor Coalfield . And then

21:33

he had like , uh , passed

21:36

a cow home, coming off the bench had

21:38

Clemons coming off the bench . I mean, it was that's crazy,

21:41

bro. And when, you know, a lot of times when we say

21:43

a bunch of talent, I think it was more than that. It

21:45

was like, it was community,

21:47

right? Yes. That happened to be

21:50

talented and extraordinary guys

21:53

going off to do some, some amazing

21:55

things, but, and people who

21:58

education or not. Right. Cause

22:00

you had Mack and Jamil

22:03

incredibly high educated.

22:05

Right. But then it'd be somebody

22:07

who just like grew up in

22:09

Houston and, and just wanted to

22:12

like get down and, and

22:14

spread the gospel. Right? Yeah . It was, it was just

22:16

cool. There was no like, you

22:19

know, you know, as, as you know,

22:22

being 41, now that's

22:24

hard to do to , to bring

22:27

what we, you know, forget

22:30

outside of race. I think the class

22:32

thing is hard to bring together.

22:34

It's like people eat

22:36

, you know, we always couch it in. Well, I really

22:38

liked to do certain things and they don't

22:41

like to do the things I do. And it's just

22:43

like, right guys,

22:45

we all kind of like going

22:48

in the same direction. You know, you

22:50

try to recapture what you, what

22:52

you've seen and what you heard and what you

22:55

know, could be possible because

22:57

you lived it. Well,

22:59

think about what

23:02

we had at ODU . And

23:05

I , again, I don't mean

23:08

many of us who talk about what

23:10

the nineties meant at you

23:12

, right? Yeah . But you had the

23:14

changing of the academic

23:16

standards from the 22

23:19

to like a 26 or something.

23:22

Right? Like in the midst of

23:24

that, you had people that were coming

23:26

from, you know, Oakland

23:29

coming from Tulsa, North

23:31

Tulsa, reseals , Northeast,

23:34

Oklahoma city, Morris park,

23:36

Oklahoma city, right. Um,

23:39

Richardson. It was

23:42

Missouri city. It was, it

23:44

was the tray , it was war acres.

23:46

It was all that coming to, Oh , you

23:49

at the same time, little rock,

23:51

North little rock, whatever suburb.

23:54

And it was a

23:56

lot of people who had education

23:59

and had scores or right.

24:02

May not have had scores under this new

24:04

regime under these new standards, but

24:06

just all coming together to have a good

24:08

time. And some

24:11

of us graduate , most of us graduated,

24:14

whether it took us some time or not some

24:16

of us didn't , but it was

24:19

just good, fun. Right. In what you're

24:21

describing, like what we had in Houston

24:23

was a lot of folks

24:26

under that same type of , uh

24:29

, situation, but

24:31

who were like, you

24:33

know, wanting to get together, find

24:36

a spouse, hang. Um,

24:39

but , uh, education

24:41

or not just like

24:45

was Jesus like brought a lot of us

24:47

together, you know, you

24:50

know it, man, it's crazy. I

24:52

reminiscent on all of this. So,

24:55

you know, back to the, to the question, what,

24:57

in that time made

25:00

you shift from looking for

25:03

the, the law firm

25:05

job to I'm fitting to

25:07

be the Barack Obama, because literally bro,

25:10

by the time you were doing your thing,

25:12

Barack was doing his, I don't know if he's ever

25:15

saw the parallels and similarities.

25:17

I always, so a

25:20

guy named Lawrence tolerber

25:22

who was my barber in

25:25

Los Angeles. Right. Who

25:27

is the man? Uh, Mr.

25:30

Tall over had bill Bratton

25:33

come through his shop , had Charlie

25:36

back . Like it was a right. It's like a Rite of passage

25:38

, uh , for you, if you're

25:41

a political or

25:43

official in Los Angeles,

25:46

Mr. Todd lover , uh,

25:48

is somebody you come to see. And

25:52

, um , I

25:54

met him during my organizing days,

25:56

the end of my organizing days in Los Angeles.

25:59

And you know, you're Barbara , you talk and whatnot.

26:01

And he was like, Oh, you Obama you a young

26:03

Obama. Right. Cause this is

26:05

2009. So this is after

26:07

the election. And so that's just

26:10

what , what he does. And I was like, Mr . Tolerant , no

26:12

. So president Obama

26:15

went to organizing then went to

26:17

law school. Right. I went

26:19

to law school then got into community

26:21

organizing and I have

26:23

no desire to go into

26:26

electoral politics. That's just

26:28

not what I, what I want to do,

26:30

but that didn't stop Mr. Tall . Right.

26:32

So I mean, it just

26:35

was what it was, but no,

26:37

I , um, I loved politics

26:39

from an early age man, so right. Um

26:42

, I'm this 10 who also be a stockbroker

26:45

, who's reading the newspaper.

26:47

Right. Uh, in

26:49

the morning, like eating

26:52

breakfast. Cause my parents subscribed to the paper.

26:54

I still subscribed to it. I subscribed to it

26:56

online. Um, and

26:58

that's the challenge, right? I'm gonna just

27:01

let you know, how do you get your kids to

27:03

love to read when you read

27:05

on your phone? Right. So they think you're

27:08

neglecting them, but

27:09

No I'm reading the Washington post I'm reading.

27:12

Right. I'm reading it all month .

27:14

I'm just, you know, so

27:17

same thing just on

27:20

, on uh, Instagram. No,

27:23

I'm , I'm reading my

27:25

Bible.

27:27

No , I was on Instagram, you know

27:30

, 15 minutes ago. But right now

27:32

I'm trying to figure out, you know,

27:35

if we're going to get any of the stimulus money or not.

27:37

Right.

27:37

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So

27:41

, uh, no

27:43

, it , it, I was the kid who loved

27:45

reading. Right . So I

27:48

was paying attention to the IRA,

27:50

you know , uh, clashes

27:53

with, you know, in the eighties.

27:55

And that just, I just loved politics,

27:57

man. Uh, in what organizing?

28:01

Um , no of no offense to

28:03

law school or

28:06

any of the other education that I received.

28:08

Right. I received some

28:11

of the best education

28:13

that you can get like my high school.

28:16

Right. I'll put up against

28:19

any high school in the country, particularly

28:21

when we were there because

28:23

we were the first high school in the state

28:25

to have the eight to have the IB program.

28:28

We also had a, B uh , AP,

28:31

and then at the same time, right. I've got

28:33

super bowl champions , uh,

28:36

and you know, NBA champions or

28:38

whatever coming out of my high school.

28:40

Right. Um, you

28:43

could go and

28:45

for the IB diploma or you could be shooting dice.

28:49

Right . You know, whoever,

28:53

right. It was, it

28:55

was a worldly experience.

28:57

So no one of my good

28:59

friends I keep in contact with

29:02

is the grandson of a us Senator. Right.

29:04

Who's quadruple Stanford. I used to say he was triple

29:06

Stanford. He's like, no, no, no, I'm actually quadrupled

29:09

me . Not , you know what I mean? You just joking

29:11

with me. Right. So I

29:13

got the chance to meet

29:16

incredible people , um

29:18

, and, and have this amazing , uh,

29:21

experience in organizing it

29:23

will . I was going to say

29:24

In, in high school [inaudible]

29:26

,

29:27

But my organizing experience

29:29

taught me how the world works. Uh,

29:31

and that, that is incredible.

29:33

I will always credit the I

29:35

a F uh, being able to

29:37

work in Dallas

29:40

and then, you know , um,

29:42

South central , um,

29:45

with just teaching me things

29:48

that I would not have learned.

29:50

Otherwise I still take with me to this

29:52

day, when you say , um,

29:55

teach a organizing,

29:58

taught you how the world works,

30:00

what do you mean by that? Right. So

30:03

, um, in,

30:06

I F organizing , we talk about the world

30:08

as it is versus the world as it should be. Right?

30:11

So I'm in

30:14

South central or

30:17

South LA, right. Seeing

30:20

the greatest , um,

30:24

decimation right. Of black wealth

30:27

that hopefully we will ever see in

30:29

our time in 2000

30:31

, uh , seven, eight, nine,

30:33

10, right. As people who came

30:35

from Mississippi , um,

30:39

Georgia, Alabama,

30:42

Arkansas, Oklahoma, like my

30:44

family in the 1940,

30:47

50, 60 seventies who

30:49

, um, bought

30:53

into the American dream or this idea

30:55

of the American dream and are living in

30:57

, uh , South LA or Inglewood

31:00

or Hawthorne or Compton

31:02

, um , Linwood

31:05

wherever, and

31:07

are losing their home. Right. Because

31:10

of , uh, the

31:13

subprime mortgage prices and the bad

31:16

loans that ESA signed up

31:18

for. Um, but there

31:20

were factors that

31:22

, um , the deck was stacked

31:24

against , uh , right. Um, at

31:28

the time, you know, 1970 wages

31:30

has essentially stagnated from

31:33

like for a 30 year period from the,

31:35

from the late seventies, but in

31:37

, um, you know, Southern

31:39

California real estate was a sure bet.

31:42

And so if your , you

31:44

know, 40, 50 years old

31:46

, um,

31:48

and you got aging parents

31:51

and you need to take care of them, but you've also

31:53

got, you know , these kids who

31:55

are trying to go to college and you need money

31:57

for that. Um , or

31:59

you need to pay private school tuition

32:02

because you don't feel that the school

32:04

district is the best bet for

32:06

your kids. Um,

32:09

where are you going to get the money from that? And

32:11

a lot of people took it out of their home, right?

32:13

So you

32:16

would think that

32:18

, uh, our government

32:22

are , um, uh,

32:25

it's in the public's interest to

32:27

help people stay in their loans. So we actually

32:29

put forward a plan that we brought to

32:31

the California housing finance

32:34

agency and others that said,

32:36

you know what? You can go

32:39

and have the government

32:42

taken interest in these people's homes. Right.

32:45

And once the property , uh,

32:49

re bounces back, right. And they gain the

32:51

equity back because these people don't want to

32:53

move. They're not flippers. They just want to be able to stay

32:55

in their homes and know that they're not going to get foreclosed

32:57

on. Let's go ahead, allow

32:59

these people to stay in their homes. And

33:01

then right, whenever the

33:04

, the house appreciates and it ever is

33:06

sold in 10, 15, 20 years,

33:09

we can go and , um,

33:12

like sharing the equity of that.

33:15

Right. Um,

33:18

but let's help out these homeowners and

33:21

government said, nah, we're not trying

33:23

to do that. We're going to give the money to

33:26

these banks. Um, we're

33:28

going to put them through these stress tests

33:30

and yada yada yada. And so the homeowners,

33:33

the people who needed the help the most

33:36

didn't get it. Right. Uh

33:38

, that was a lesson in

33:40

how power works , how

33:43

money works, how this country works,

33:45

that you're not going to get , uh, in

33:47

law school. Right. Um,

33:51

and so we worked on that. We also

33:53

worked on, like you said, the algebra

33:55

project, what is that ? So

33:58

the algebra project is, is brilliant

34:00

, uh, at its core . It

34:02

is the idea , uh,

34:06

the initial concept came from Bob Moses

34:08

who , uh , one of my personal

34:10

heroes was organizing

34:12

in the Mississippi Delta with Fannie

34:14

Lou Hamer , um, uh,

34:17

Ella Baker and

34:20

others who, you know, we talk about

34:22

Dr. King and what he did for the civil rights

34:24

movement and it , and he did great

34:26

things, but it was, there were local

34:29

generals on the ground, you

34:31

know, generals, lieutenants that were doing

34:34

that hard work, the

34:36

hard and slow and patient work of organizing

34:39

to bring voting rights. And

34:41

, uh, and

34:44

, uh, he was one of them, right.

34:47

Uh, Bob went down

34:50

there and left his studies in New

34:52

York and organized, and in

34:54

Mississippi , um, later

34:58

, uh, went to Africa and spent some time

35:00

and , um, came back to the

35:02

States and came up with something called

35:04

the algebra project, which is an experiential

35:07

learning model that helps

35:10

students who are behind and

35:12

in grasping math concepts

35:14

and teaches them how to,

35:17

to , uh, learn energies

35:19

and math and algebra , um

35:21

, based upon their lived experience.

35:24

Right? So when we did this with Crenshaw,

35:26

we created a number line by

35:29

going and taking students down

35:32

to, I don't know if in LA, if

35:34

it's central station, union station, whatever

35:36

, uh, and just took a

35:39

ride on their red line and

35:41

marked out the different stops. And

35:43

then when we went back to class later,

35:46

we, we mapped it out based upon those

35:48

stops so that they didn't understand

35:51

X, Y coordinates on

35:53

a theoretical terms. It was something

35:56

that they had done in living

35:58

it out, right. Because , um,

36:02

every kid, everybody has

36:04

the ability to learn the question

36:06

is, are we willing to take

36:08

it to , to where

36:11

their , their level of understanding, right.

36:13

A good friend of mine , uh , Anthony Madox

36:16

, uh, is a professor,

36:19

just one of the smartest people I know

36:21

, know studied artificial

36:23

intelligence right now, his job

36:26

at USC and the Rossier school

36:28

is teaching teachers how to teach.

36:31

But he pointed out to me, you know, we're in

36:33

the 21st century using

36:35

a 19th century education model.

36:37

We know every kid doesn't learn

36:40

the exact same way. The problem

36:42

is , um, our

36:45

unwillingness to invest in other

36:47

education models that fit

36:49

kids and meet them where they are.

36:52

Right. And he told me this like 10, 12 years ago,

36:54

right. That we're in the 21st century

36:56

using , uh , a 19th century

36:59

, uh , education model. What's

37:02

crazy about what you said. And , and that

37:04

I , um , just picking up, they

37:06

basically were trying to, we

37:09

teach in abstractions and theory

37:12

and , and , and conceptual ideas,

37:14

which, and

37:17

it's funny, we measure intelligence

37:19

on that too, but I'm like, what

37:24

do you mean ? We don't teach babies. Babies. Don't

37:26

learn that people don't actually learn

37:29

and ideas, concepts, and extractions. They

37:31

learn in country realities. A baby

37:33

knows that that not because they

37:35

understand the representation of work , but

37:38

because she, she or

37:40

he is looked at you, you know, your kids

37:42

looked at, you heard somebody say

37:45

some sounds and then attach the sound

37:47

to the concrete reality of daddy. Right

37:49

. And that's how they learn, man. That's

37:51

crazy that we still have this,

37:54

this system that only works for a few

37:57

and not for everyone, let , let's take it even further.

37:59

Right. We say, God is love you.

38:02

Don't just sit that on a Christian and be like, all

38:04

right , now, go run with that. Right. You

38:06

say, okay, now, how did your parents

38:08

love you? Right. God teaches

38:10

us through. He, we call

38:12

him father because that's something we

38:14

can grasp our mind around.

38:17

How does a father and a mother, how

38:19

do your parents, you know, love

38:22

you. Yeah . Yeah. But

38:25

that's not what we do in our educational system.

38:27

No, no, no, no.

38:29

And then , and then we hold it against those who don't,

38:32

who don't grasp, man. And

38:34

it's crazy. And so this project

38:36

was , uh , I mean, how did w

38:39

how, how does organizing tie

38:41

into this project? So the

38:44

project is phenomenal, but if you don't

38:46

have people in the

38:48

district who are willing to champion it , um,

38:52

like many programs, it has a limited shelf

38:55

life or limited ability to get

38:57

off his feet. So we were hired or

38:59

contracted to , uh,

39:01

be the organized , to do

39:03

the organizing work, to allow it, to gain

39:05

its foothold in the district.

39:08

And so I was , uh , assigned

39:10

to Crenshaw high school, to work

39:13

with the teachers , uh,

39:15

and , and families there as

39:17

well as to help do some

39:20

of the political work at Beaudry to

39:22

make sure that , uh, LA

39:24

USD allow the , the

39:27

system to grow and to thrive, man,

39:31

I th that's for now . So,

39:35

you know, you, you hit on something

39:38

half, the great ideas that we

39:40

have, and we come

39:43

up with, I'm just

39:45

kinda tying the fact that the

39:47

idea is one thing, but

39:50

the execution and the buy-in,

39:53

well, no , the buy-in as is needed to

39:55

execute the , execute, those ideas.

39:58

Most of us don't have the ability to

40:01

get the buy-in. We got the program,

40:03

we know how to execute it. Maybe we saw it

40:05

somewhere else. And so organizing

40:09

as a principle , as a reality is

40:11

something that man, you

40:13

know, so, so, so let's

40:16

tie this back. Um, Oh

40:20

, let's talk about black lives matter movement. Okay.

40:23

Let's let's just talk about this. Okay.

40:26

Uh, we got the ideas there's.

40:28

I mean, I can go to the website there's

40:30

platforms. So some people

40:32

will say, it's good. These ideas are good.

40:34

These ideas are bad, but I'm just saying,

40:37

yeah , these are ideas. Do

40:39

you think that organizations

40:42

like that and many others have

40:46

the ability to take

40:48

those ideas, get, buy

40:50

in and get people to execute potentially.

40:54

Yes, but here's the deal. Are we talking black

40:57

lives matter? Black lives matter

40:59

movement? Are we talking black

41:01

lives matter? The organization, two

41:03

totally different things, right? Yeah. Go

41:06

to the website. That's the black lives matter

41:08

organization. Black lives matter movement

41:12

is I think much larger

41:14

than the organization. Uh,

41:16

and so any

41:18

of us can be like

41:21

a member of that, right. Because

41:23

we believe if you believe that black lives matter,

41:26

right. You're part of the black lives matter movement. Now

41:28

there's the actual organization that

41:30

has chapters and has

41:33

its own. Um,

41:36

has it , um, no,

41:39

I guess mission and whatnot that

41:41

are, that are somewhat intertwined. Right.

41:44

And they came from the same place, but

41:46

there are two different things, right? Yeah.

41:49

So what would

41:51

you, if

41:55

someone's called you Stephen

41:57

, the organizer, when Stephen was organized

41:59

on now and said, Hey, can

42:02

you help us? Somebody from BLM

42:04

said, Hey, can you help us? What would

42:07

be the first couple of things you would say to them? Well,

42:10

let's sit down and talk, right? Because, so

42:12

for the industrial

42:14

areas foundation and its affiliates

42:17

, right. Our organizations, whether it's

42:19

TMO in

42:21

Houston or Dallas area, interfaith in Dallas

42:24

or one LA in Los Angeles or voice

42:26

in Oklahoma city, which , um , you know, my

42:29

PTA is a member of, right. Our

42:32

goal is to build power

42:35

and many of us, right.

42:39

Myself included shirt , somewhat

42:41

from the idea of, I want power.

42:44

Right. But that

42:47

the word power, like

42:50

in Spanish or there

42:52

, right. It just simply means

42:54

to be able to, I

42:56

can, I can act , right.

42:59

So why would you not want power?

43:02

Right. You think about the, the,

43:04

the, someone

43:06

who completely lacks power, that's

43:09

an infant. They , they can't, they

43:11

can't do anything for themselves. They , they

43:13

literally, as you will learn soon enough,

43:16

right? The only thing you don't

43:18

have to teach a child to do

43:22

is cry in

43:24

urinate. They

43:26

don't have the ability to poop. They

43:28

don't have the ability to eat. They

43:31

don't have the ability to sleep. Right.

43:33

Who wants to be in that state. Right.

43:36

We want to be able to have power

43:38

and to be able to act . And so what

43:41

I have organizations are looking for is

43:43

the ability to build power and you get

43:45

power in our minds from

43:48

one or two forms , organize people

43:51

and organize money. And most of us

43:53

don't have a lot of money,

43:55

but we do have the ability through our networks

43:58

and our relationships to organize a ton of

44:00

people. And so that's,

44:02

so if BLM were

44:06

to come to me and say a , uh

44:08

, light to join or work with you

44:10

, um, well, let's have a conversation

44:13

because these are the things, this

44:15

is what organizing looks like for

44:17

us. These are our goals.

44:20

We focus on the things that unite

44:22

us, right? Quality schools

44:25

, um, uh, good

44:27

jobs, paying jobs that, you

44:30

know, support , uh,

44:32

quality infrastructure, right? Um,

44:35

safe neighborhoods , um,

44:38

you know , uh, the

44:40

ability to not get shot in the street

44:43

by police , you know, so I

44:45

think there is , there , there might be some things

44:47

we can come together on and work around right

44:49

now we can discuss tactics and all

44:51

that, that can come later. But are these

44:54

things that are interesting to you? Um,

44:56

are you willing to do the work to find

44:59

other people within your organization

45:02

that wants to do this? Because

45:06

as opposed to the idea of

45:08

the charismatic leader organizing

45:10

is about people recognizing

45:12

their own agency and

45:15

being able to

45:17

, um, uh,

45:19

have some say in their lives

45:21

and, and to, you know, to work, to

45:23

create change with other

45:25

people , um, in

45:28

our minds, organizing is critical

45:30

to the democratic traditions because

45:32

it's, you know, Patrick

45:35

and Stephen coming together and saying, you know

45:38

what, we don't fully agree on

45:40

all of this, but I'm willing to work with you

45:42

around the safe drinking water. If

45:45

you're willing to work with me on getting

45:47

some speed , uh , some road humps

45:49

to make sure that people don't come flying up and

45:51

down our street. Right. And

45:53

through that, you build power and you build

45:55

, um, you

45:57

build , um, common cause

46:00

and people working to come together and to have civil

46:02

discourse, to have a common conversation,

46:06

man , uh, w

46:09

we're going to have more of this conversation

46:12

offline. Cause I, I, there's

46:14

something about this that I feel like,

46:17

I feel like, whatever, right

46:19

now we need more, we,

46:22

the country needs more

46:24

organization. Yeah.

46:27

Totally agree. You know , and

46:30

you know, and the process of organizing

46:33

would probably bring some people together.

46:36

Yeah , totally agree. The , the challenge

46:39

is , um , you

46:42

know, particularly in , I won't

46:44

say, yeah,

46:46

I'll say this, what , what I found

46:48

the challenge to be in my organizing

46:50

, um, as an African-American

46:53

, uh, in so many churches,

46:55

right? Pastors not

46:58

being willing to one

47:00

have allow their leaders like

47:02

their lay leaders to have

47:05

a role in this work, because,

47:09

and again, I come from the Baptist tradition right.

47:11

Where you really got a fiefdom that you

47:13

can be squeezed to your

47:15

child regardless of what

47:17

their educational credentials

47:19

or whatever, but let's go back to Collin , whatever

47:22

their calling may be . Right. It's

47:24

not the ecclesiastical system where the

47:26

Bishop moves, whoever, which , you

47:28

know, has its own challenges.

47:30

Right. But it's like, Oh yeah,

47:33

pass the data to the senior, leaves it to

47:35

pass it to the junior right. In there

47:37

it is. And so having

47:39

other voices come to the table

47:42

and say , um , yes,

47:45

pastor, this is what we want to do. And

47:47

we want the church to

47:50

invest some dollars. And us being part

47:52

of this organization where, you

47:54

know, we work with other congregations

47:56

and other institutions in our city and

47:58

in our community to create

48:01

change, unfortunately, that

48:04

does, that does not happen as much

48:06

right. In the African-American

48:09

church, but it needs to right.

48:11

Because really it hearkens back

48:13

to that civil rights tradition that,

48:16

that we , uh, no

48:18

of SCLC and Snick

48:21

and right. Uh,

48:24

yeah. We know John Lewis and we know Diane

48:27

Nash and , and Bernard Lafayette

48:29

and James bevel and Mary and burying.

48:32

But there were a number of

48:34

leaders that are unsung, right.

48:37

That were at , at going to the Highlander

48:39

school and we're learning , uh

48:42

, these traditions and we're just doing

48:44

their part. Right. And they were all

48:46

leaders in their own way, but

48:48

we S we've reduced

48:51

it to Malcolm

48:53

and , or not Malcolm Martin and his,

48:56

his cabinet when that,

48:59

and we do it in injustice. Right. Yeah.

49:02

Well, I, I think that's a

49:04

lack of, you know, these are easy

49:06

categorizations that allow

49:08

people well, allow

49:11

people who we don't want to be curious

49:13

to be able to say, ah, I know about

49:16

the civil rights school . Yeah

49:18

, man. It's crazy. I recommend to anybody

49:20

who has a chance read

49:23

David Halberstam's the children,

49:26

it isn't credible. Right

49:28

. Okay. I'm going to take, I'm

49:30

going to read it as well. I'm going to do some

49:33

little light real quick and then we'll get back

49:35

to it. Uh,

49:42

just what you hear answer.

49:44

All right. All right. Scale of one to

49:46

10. How good are you at keeping secrets?

49:50

Um, maybe a five.

49:53

Okay. Ariel

49:55

or Jasmine ? Um

49:58

, area.

50:01

Okay. First celebrity crush.

50:04

Brandy , maybe Brandy

50:06

. Norwood. Yes. Okay.

50:09

All right . Down the street

50:11

from them in Carson, but neither here

50:13

nor there. My family is

50:16

, my family is huge. Like, I didn't know

50:18

it at the time, but I , yeah . I've heard I've got

50:20

Ray Jay stories. Right. So, okay.

50:23

Okay. So y'all beat y'all might

50:25

be kicking y'all are close . Not though. Okay.

50:29

Donna dusk, Don . Okay.

50:32

Why Don ? Uh,

50:34

when we were online , uh, it

50:36

gave me an appreciation for getting up early

50:38

man. And I liked being ahead of the

50:40

day. It's one of the things I hated about being

50:42

on the West coast because

50:44

you're two to three hours behind

50:47

the action. And so

50:50

I believe it's very important

50:53

to have a plan and

50:55

have an idea of what you want to do for the

50:57

day, because the day is going to hit you in the face. Regardless,

51:00

you gotta be ready for it. It's

51:04

the , if you could travel back in time, which

51:06

period would you go to? Um,

51:09

probably the, either the time we

51:11

were talking about or , uh,

51:13

just, Ooh , man. It was, I

51:16

mean , I, I, I see just

51:19

the way my mind works. Right. So you've got a

51:24

responsibility and

51:28

, um, you've

51:31

got , uh, not,

51:33

I don't want to say accountability, but it's, it's,

51:36

it's , um, your

51:39

access right? To, to, to,

51:42

I mean, in like 18, 19,

51:44

20, 21 is like

51:47

that period where you've got the ability

51:50

to do a lot of stuff, but

51:52

not be necessarily hold accountable

51:54

and have those mistakes follow you,

51:57

right. The rest of your life. Uh

52:00

, and so you get to do a lot of things.

52:03

While at the same time,

52:06

you ain't paying a whole bunch of bills, right?

52:08

You might, depending on what your parents

52:10

are doing, you may make you put car , no gas

52:13

in your car, car insurance, all

52:15

right. But you know, most of us aren't

52:17

responsible for paying your rent and

52:20

putting all the food on our table

52:22

and like 18, 19, or you

52:24

just take, you're taking it out of your,

52:26

your student loan money. Right. So,

52:29

which, you know, at our peer , we were fortunate

52:32

enough. Maybe you can refinance that at

52:34

two point, whatever percent, the

52:37

idea of unsecured credit

52:40

at that low of a percentage. You're not

52:42

getting that right . You know, at

52:44

any other point in life. And you're not definitely

52:47

not getting that at today's rates. So

52:50

it was a , it was a , it was a good time.

52:53

It was a good time. Like if we could have gone

52:55

and no , you know , let me take the student loan

52:58

money, put this in Google, it's

53:00

going to become alphabet. You know what I mean?

53:02

Just man, w with

53:04

hindsight, there's so much we would have done

53:07

differently. Um, and I remember

53:09

wanting to invest in

53:11

Google at the time, but

53:14

reading some, some article

53:16

that was like, that's dumb. Don't

53:18

do it, man. I

53:20

think sometimes man, those articles,

53:23

or it's just right to write . If you feel

53:25

something, do it , at least you can say

53:27

I made the mistake. Right . All right

53:29

. Well, again, man, like

53:32

we were, I don't know what type of scholarship you

53:34

had at , um , a law

53:36

school, but you know, I had a good scholarship

53:38

in law school also too . Some loan money out

53:40

for living expenses and,

53:43

you know, say you just live on ramen

53:45

and don't know by

53:47

whatever or, or, you

53:49

know, eat good . I

53:52

mean like exactly the

53:55

arm . I mean, being able to refinance

53:57

your student loans, I think 2.7,

53:59

5%. Right. We

54:02

just didn't know unsecured credit.

54:05

Doesn't come at that low

54:08

of an interest rate. The stuff that we could

54:11

have done with that. My

54:14

money isn't that cheap. No. Yeah.

54:19

Okay . Do you snore? I do have

54:21

terrible sleep apnea. Um,

54:23

my wife has been on me. I need to go

54:25

and get the , um, get

54:28

the test it so I can get a, C-PAP see

54:30

that my dad has one. My, I

54:33

think my grandparents snored, I , I, I

54:35

feel bad for my parents or from my kids and what's

54:37

coming down the pipe . Yeah. I

54:39

probably need to do the same thing bro . Place.

54:42

You most want to travel? Uh,

54:46

right now I've

54:49

got , uh, a friend

54:52

who runs our kids preschool

54:54

and she does a program. She spends

54:57

her time, you know, nine COVID , uh,

54:59

in Savannah. And she's actually friends

55:02

with the people who own the gray

55:04

, uh , which is a restaurant in Savannah,

55:06

this guidance some pub recently. So Savannah

55:09

has kind of been on my mind. Um,

55:11

my wife's family, her father's

55:13

side goes back to Charleston, so okay

55:16

. Savannah, Georgia Charleston. South

55:19

Carolina. Yeah. Charleston, South Carolina. But

55:21

just getting back and seeing friends and family in LA.

55:24

No . Okay. Favorite junk food trader

55:28

Joe's has these chocolate , uh,

55:31

coconut almonds that are

55:33

like cinnamon . Okay.

55:35

Okay. I will try those out. They

55:37

remind you , uh , they remind

55:40

you of the world's finest chocolate , uh

55:42

, almonds, that , that whoever was slaying.

55:44

Right. But yeah , they're good, bro. What

55:46

were you gonna say? No, no, no. I'll say that my

55:49

wife probably right now would

55:51

definitely appreciate that. So I'm going to go to trader

55:53

Joe's and get a small

55:55

gift. She probably hear this afterwards, but

55:58

two of them bro, two of them so

56:00

I can have one. Yeah, no , just

56:02

so you might get a few because if

56:05

she's pregnant and she wants some , you're going to give

56:07

them up. Right. Like just take a handful

56:09

and be like baby , these yours. Okay. All

56:11

right . Let me, in fact that we'll do that today.

56:15

Um, favorite childhood TV show? Uh,

56:20

man. So hard to say. Um,

56:23

I I've, I've got some great affinity over

56:25

the Cosby show and I was standing . It

56:27

means now, but , uh, it

56:29

was incredible. Um,

56:31

also love the GI Joe cartoons, man.

56:34

Okay. All right . Oh, let me throw this

56:36

at you. I'm a, I'm a

56:39

man, Craig

56:41

of the Creek on cartoon network

56:44

is for me the latch

56:46

key kids. It is a cartoon.

56:50

It's one of the best cartoons that I've

56:52

ever seen done. Okay. And

56:54

if you're a kid of the eighties who, you

56:56

know, we were just allowed to wrong,

56:59

like it'll, it'll hit you.

57:02

Exactly, man, these kids now

57:04

I , you know, sometimes I, I, I

57:06

I'm like, you know, parents

57:08

will be like, I'm like, yo, I can't really relate

57:11

because I got to do,

57:14

man, we got to do three or four times.

57:16

I mean, you can't watch a kid

57:18

all the time. Like, well, minor

57:22

, minor are seven and eight.

57:25

Uh, Jean will be , uh, uh,

57:28

seven, I'm sorry, four and seven

57:30

gene will be eight in April. And

57:34

um, man, like, I

57:36

don't know what happened, but we, we, we

57:39

put these hedges on him , uh,

57:41

and you don't even realize you're doing it. Yeah.

57:44

Good friend of mine runs a bookstore

57:47

in , uh , Oklahoma city now. And admin

57:49

said that , um,

57:52

even more than

57:55

paddling sex , we

57:57

traffic in fear. That

57:59

is the number one thing we traffic it. Wow.

58:03

That is RO that's what I would have

58:05

van Steven . Think about that. Yeah

58:07

. As the , um, last

58:11

Halloween costume, we don't celebrate

58:13

Halloween. Okay . One of those things

58:15

of , uh , of , uh

58:17

, you know, going

58:19

in to Donald Bell's church, man

58:21

, and that just had us rethink it. So the

58:24

last Halloween costume we allowed

58:26

Ruby, she was maybe two , um,

58:30

and two or three and we let

58:32

her be a lamb. And that's one of the things

58:34

that our kids miss out on every year. And it's hard

58:37

cause our kids are incredibly cute. So

58:39

one of the things we thought is, well, maybe we'll let them

58:41

do like dress up birthday parties and

58:43

it just hasn't materialized.

58:46

But yeah, our kids are , um , they

58:48

don't do Halloween. Yeah. Cause you could

58:50

do dress up on other days. I

58:53

have a sugar tooth, like we've got a candy drawer.

58:55

Like I just told you about my favorite junk food.

58:57

And then I've got like , like, man, this dude

58:59

is a candy kind of sore . He could go back

59:01

to him every time. So

59:04

Charlotte almonds. Yeah. So our

59:07

kids are not missing out on candy by

59:09

any stretch of the mat . So, so

59:12

Halloween is candy and costumes are now. So

59:15

over-sexualized particularly for adults, so there's

59:17

no need for it. Right. Exactly.

59:21

Cake or pie. Okay.

59:24

Okay. Uh,

59:26

do you ever post inspirational posts on

59:28

social media? No.

59:31

I'm typically a calling

59:33

something out that I think needs to be

59:35

said. Right? Like I've

59:39

had to stop myself from posting reminders

59:41

about , um, you

59:45

know, what happened January six, right. Because it's

59:47

gotten lost in the consciousness or,

59:51

you know, Jay Z

59:53

, um, we're celebrating Jay

59:55

Z , but he sold out cap

59:58

and the cause so

1:00:00

that he could sell ACE of spades

1:00:02

and make a bunch of money on title and

1:00:04

get a , uh, and have the weekend

1:00:06

saying Coke anthems . Right? Like these

1:00:09

are things at the super bowl. This is , this

1:00:11

is what he sold out. This is what he kept

1:00:14

the , the, the , um , the

1:00:17

movement for . But that's the type of things

1:00:19

I'll do typically. Would you consider

1:00:22

him , uh, did

1:00:25

he, would you consider, did

1:00:27

he give up power or is he getting power

1:00:29

in your opinion, any money he's

1:00:32

getting money, he's losing

1:00:34

credibility with his

1:00:36

original core audience and

1:00:38

gaining it with , uh,

1:00:40

those who , uh, believe

1:00:44

that capitalism and money is important.

1:00:47

Okay. So

1:00:49

w was he gaining or losing power to you

1:00:51

though as an organizer? Do you

1:00:53

think he's, he's definitely,

1:00:55

I would say gaining power and

1:00:57

he's gaining influence. Um,

1:01:00

and he's gaining, he's probably gaining

1:01:02

power because he has the ability to

1:01:05

tap into money in

1:01:07

other ways. Right. So, and

1:01:09

then let's be honest within our community

1:01:11

, uh, the African-American community,

1:01:13

there are a lot of people who look up and

1:01:15

just laud him for being able

1:01:17

to make the

1:01:20

, uh, the transition. Um,

1:01:23

right. And he, and he's done it on his

1:01:25

own terms. Right. I remember a few years

1:01:28

back who he

1:01:30

had the hat that said retired

1:01:32

drug dealer. Right. And that

1:01:34

was just like, ha like,

1:01:36

no, like almost cursed

1:01:39

the pocket. That's

1:01:41

not funny, bro. Yeah. As

1:01:45

someone who's , um , no

1:01:48

had members of the

1:01:50

family who have suffered

1:01:52

and dealt with addiction,

1:01:55

like there's real harm

1:01:58

that comes from that at

1:02:01

the very least like, can, can you not

1:02:03

repent and say, man, I did some awful

1:02:06

Louie awfully terrible things

1:02:08

to get to where I've gotten

1:02:11

to. Um, and

1:02:15

uh, I see the error of that and

1:02:17

I'm gonna spend my time trying to make right.

1:02:19

But you know, every, no

1:02:22

nets versus, you know,

1:02:25

about those those days.

1:02:27

And there seems to be no reformation

1:02:29

, uh, or

1:02:32

no reform for that. So it's

1:02:34

funny that you say that because I think the 30th

1:02:36

anniversary of new Jack city was

1:02:38

last week and I was listening

1:02:40

to the conversation on glove house

1:02:43

with all the original actors, producers,

1:02:46

and directors and musicians

1:02:49

, uh, you know , uh, what's

1:02:51

his name? Christopher, Christopher

1:02:54

Williams, Christopher Williams, and you know, all of them . Yeah.

1:02:56

Mario van Peebles, Chris rock, all right

1:02:58

. We're all on this clubhouse

1:03:00

chat and remembering

1:03:04

the movie and you watch the movie,

1:03:07

it was about drugs, you know, drug

1:03:09

dealing was in the movie, but those

1:03:11

guys were careful to say this

1:03:14

isn't the life. These

1:03:16

people all die or, you

1:03:18

know, yeah . There's a terrible cost

1:03:20

to this thing. And you know, that was right

1:03:22

before we, you know, that was like 1990,

1:03:25

91, like where they would

1:03:27

kind of be able to , uh, uh,

1:03:31

show the crack era . And I was just, it

1:03:33

was just interesting. It was interesting

1:03:35

to hear them

1:03:38

think that they had to have a message

1:03:40

in as violent and as vile

1:03:42

as a movie, you know, people could , uh,

1:03:45

portray the movie, but then here's Jay Z ease,

1:03:49

ease, ease, saying,

1:03:52

look, it doesn't end up

1:03:54

like that for everybody look

1:03:56

at me. Right . Right. You know, it's funny.

1:03:59

Right. Uh, NWA,

1:04:02

get I for

1:04:05

better or worse. My belief is

1:04:07

that of the past 30,

1:04:10

35 years , uh,

1:04:13

NWA has the biggest influence on the African-American

1:04:15

community. Hmm . You

1:04:18

say that , uh, you gonna have to elaborate

1:04:20

on that. Unpack

1:04:23

that you've got, you've got run DMC

1:04:25

saying you cheating on your wife.

1:04:28

You know that ain't right. NWA

1:04:31

comes back a few years later and says,

1:04:36

I ain't the one she

1:04:38

swallowed it right. In

1:04:41

the narrative shifts, you've

1:04:43

got easy. E the

1:04:46

drug dealer turned record

1:04:49

is Zack mogul where

1:04:52

we're now glorifying

1:04:54

a gangster lifestyle. And

1:04:57

so , um, when

1:04:59

that comes out, you know,

1:05:01

the message , uh,

1:05:04

East coast rap, you know,

1:05:06

takes note . And even it's not like

1:05:08

drug dealing was new. It

1:05:10

was only on the West coast. It was . Yes.

1:05:13

But now it's okay to glorify

1:05:16

it. Right. Um,

1:05:18

and so even though there may be

1:05:20

movies like new Jack city that

1:05:22

have the message , um,

1:05:26

in it that that's not the lifestyle,

1:05:28

many of us take, but there's

1:05:31

still, there's still money to be made.

1:05:34

There are still women to be got in

1:05:36

, in that. I, I see NWA

1:05:39

as that turning point. Yeah. No,

1:05:42

it's interesting that you, you, you

1:05:44

would, you know , um, point

1:05:47

that out and, you

1:05:49

know, I think that , uh,

1:05:53

yeah, so I was talking to another artist

1:05:55

, uh, well, an artist , um,

1:05:57

by the name of reconcile and

1:06:00

he he's in rap spaces,

1:06:03

inspirational gospel music, gospel

1:06:06

, uh, art gospel, rap,

1:06:08

gospel , um, visuals. And

1:06:11

one of the things he said was like, right now,

1:06:14

the number one, listen

1:06:17

to artists on YouTube

1:06:20

is this cat , um,

1:06:23

NBA young boy. Oh yeah. And

1:06:26

he says, when you listened to NBA,

1:06:28

young boy, like

1:06:30

F you know, it's number one, artists. And it's been,

1:06:33

he's been the number one artist for awhile . And every three months

1:06:35

he drops a project and he says

1:06:37

something kind of interesting. He said, man, listen,

1:06:39

you gonna think I'm crazy, but he's

1:06:42

tapped into a frequency. And

1:06:45

I said, man, you know, helped me understand

1:06:47

that I'm not a musician though . You know, I

1:06:50

don't know what you're talking about, bro. He

1:06:52

said, man, now he's tapped into a frequency. And,

1:06:55

and you know, when people say they're vibing

1:06:57

in the studio, when they, when

1:06:59

he's vibing, he catches this frequency.

1:07:01

And they said , what kind of frequency that he's like, it's the

1:07:03

devil's frequency. And I

1:07:06

really didn't. I said, man, that's

1:07:08

a , that's, that's a bold

1:07:10

statement. Helped me understand. He

1:07:13

said, when you listened to the lyrics , he said,

1:07:16

people who have an untrained ear, hear

1:07:18

it. And think the beat's not that

1:07:20

tight, I've heard better beats for

1:07:23

way better beats, the lyrics

1:07:25

are dead tight. This sucks.

1:07:28

And they , and they change it. But people who

1:07:30

are tap into the frequency is

1:07:33

murder, kill rape violence, blah,

1:07:36

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

1:07:38

they just, they just vibe , he

1:07:40

said, this music now,

1:07:44

or , and um, you know, this

1:07:46

is coming from , uh , a 30 year old. Right.

1:07:49

He's you know, and so he's, he's

1:07:51

close to it. And so he said,

1:07:53

man, this music now is

1:07:56

, uh, it's

1:07:58

all about frequency and vibe. You

1:08:01

either feel it and think it's amazing,

1:08:04

or you don't, because it's not

1:08:06

about the logic of the flow or,

1:08:09

you know, all of that. That's that's from

1:08:11

the generation before where you think, you

1:08:13

know, Oh man, you know, this flow is

1:08:15

tight . You know, all the lyrics are deep, intense.

1:08:18

He's like this music is

1:08:20

by music. You either get it, man.

1:08:40

Um, but anyway, I wanted

1:08:42

to shift gears to family

1:08:44

and calling and uh,

1:08:48

want to , I wanted to ask you what, what does, when I say

1:08:50

family, what does family mean to you? Well

1:08:53

, uh , unfortunate right now.

1:08:55

And it immediately goes to

1:08:57

Gabrielle and , and our children. And

1:09:00

then I think about, you know, spawning off

1:09:03

of that. Um , but

1:09:06

right now, typically every, I mean,

1:09:08

especially in a pandemic where you're being

1:09:11

, uh, well, hopefully being

1:09:14

careful and cautious. Right. My,

1:09:17

I think about them in the decisions

1:09:19

that I made . Yeah. No,

1:09:22

I think, yeah. It

1:09:24

almost in strengths, your idea

1:09:27

of family too, and

1:09:30

the people in my household and yeah . The

1:09:32

household. Exactly. Yeah. Uh,

1:09:36

his family, part of the calling

1:09:38

that you feel, or

1:09:40

is it separate to you? It

1:09:44

, it is. Um, and

1:09:47

for me, I think about

1:09:49

, um, you

1:09:52

know , it's part of the calling , that's what you're saying. It

1:09:54

is. I think about what

1:09:56

God has called me to add, you know

1:09:58

, to the role that God

1:10:01

has called me to, within my family , um,

1:10:05

husband and father , um,

1:10:07

what does that mean? What are the responsibilities

1:10:10

that come with that? What are the benefits and the

1:10:12

blessings that come with that? Right. Uh,

1:10:15

and then also when I think

1:10:18

about professional calling, how

1:10:20

that works to reinforce

1:10:23

the calling that I have

1:10:25

in my home, I'm

1:10:28

very fortunate. I've got , uh

1:10:31

, a profession

1:10:33

in a job, right.

1:10:35

That did not need to be in the

1:10:37

office. I didn't need to

1:10:40

, uh, you

1:10:42

know , put myself in harm's way , uh,

1:10:45

which thankful for , um,

1:10:49

I had a supervisor and a boss

1:10:52

whose thought was, if

1:10:54

you can get your job done, do whatever you need

1:10:56

to do to get your job done. And I'm

1:10:58

, uh, understanding

1:11:01

of the things that you have going on at

1:11:04

home that affect your ability to

1:11:06

get your job done. Right? So there

1:11:08

wasn't undue unnecessary pressure

1:11:12

and I've really felt during this time,

1:11:15

good leadership is become

1:11:17

clear and bad leadership has

1:11:20

become clear, right? Supervisors

1:11:22

who need to have their hands on everything.

1:11:26

And , um, no

1:11:30

unnecessarily check in with folks

1:11:32

, uh, put people through

1:11:34

the ringer , um, that's

1:11:37

become clear , um, and

1:11:40

then fall to recognize,

1:11:43

just get the work done, right. The job is

1:11:45

still the job. Um, but let

1:11:47

me be , uh, supportive

1:11:49

of you in , in the things that you have going

1:11:51

on to, to , uh

1:11:53

, assist you in being able to,

1:11:56

to get that job done on your term.

1:11:58

Right. It's not on these

1:12:01

prescribed her. And , uh

1:12:03

, I just mean this

1:12:06

has been, the pandemic has been a stress tests

1:12:08

yeah. In so many ways. Right.

1:12:14

Um, do you , um,

1:12:17

in the midst of your , your calling and

1:12:20

in the midst of all that you've got

1:12:22

going, I mean, how do you, you

1:12:25

raised two children and , and what do you do in

1:12:27

light of all of that? Um,

1:12:32

I, I mean, personally, it's

1:12:35

been challenging right? The past

1:12:37

few months, it really

1:12:39

weighed on me. Um, I

1:12:41

dealt with some depression back in 2009,

1:12:44

10, and I told myself that

1:12:46

I would never allow myself

1:12:48

to go back there again, if it, you

1:12:50

know, so much as it depended on me, but

1:12:52

I started to feel some creep in . Uh

1:12:55

, and so I've been thinking,

1:12:57

okay, what do I need to do to address

1:12:59

this so that it doesn't, you

1:13:01

know , uh, come

1:13:04

further right now. I've

1:13:07

got a wife and two kids that

1:13:09

depend on me and now , which

1:13:11

I didn't have back then. Uh,

1:13:13

and so I'm very invested

1:13:15

in addressing it early on. Whereas

1:13:19

back then the idea would be to

1:13:21

white, knuckle it, and know to

1:13:23

man up or whatever right now

1:13:27

as much more, well, let's be vulnerable.

1:13:29

And let's figure this out and let's talk

1:13:31

with some people who care about you. And you

1:13:34

know, my, one of my

1:13:36

greatest , uh

1:13:39

, I've done this before, so I would say regrets,

1:13:41

but also fears. It's taking

1:13:43

out my issues on the people around

1:13:45

me . Right. I just, I

1:13:48

don't want that. I don't want people doing it to me.

1:13:50

Right. When you're in deep relationship

1:13:53

with people, it happens. It happens. It

1:13:55

just does. Right. That's what you signed up for

1:13:58

when you sign up to be in relationship with people.

1:14:00

But let me not

1:14:02

make it a normal practice. You

1:14:04

know, let me where I see

1:14:06

it happening or understand that it's going to happen.

1:14:09

Let me do what I can to , to

1:14:11

cut it out , uh, and

1:14:13

to do better. So

1:14:16

, um, like

1:14:18

I said , it's been a

1:14:21

challenge, but

1:14:23

, uh, you

1:14:26

know, it's, I

1:14:31

wake up and I go to sleep believing

1:14:33

that if God's called you to do something,

1:14:36

then it's possible, right.

1:14:38

If God's placed you in a situation,

1:14:42

right . I , I don't believe God tries to trick us.

1:14:46

I don't think God tries to trap us. Right.

1:14:50

It may not go

1:14:52

the way look the way you expected

1:14:55

it to be and go,

1:14:58

but it's there it's possible.

1:15:01

And so your

1:15:04

role is being patient

1:15:06

and figuring out what

1:15:09

is it that God would have you

1:15:11

to do to get there, right.

1:15:15

And again, or

1:15:18

is, is it even,

1:15:21

are you focused on the wrong there? Yeah,

1:15:25

man , go ahead. I'm sorry. No, that's just kind

1:15:27

of where I land on it, right. Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:31

Um, do you feel

1:15:35

the tension sometimes of

1:15:37

having to balance, or

1:15:40

have you felt in the past having

1:15:43

to balance, what do you feel led

1:15:46

to do all to do and

1:15:49

, uh, your professional life and

1:15:51

work in general and

1:15:54

being present

1:15:56

and leading your family, do you ever felt

1:15:58

that tension in the past? I have.

1:16:02

Um, I

1:16:04

have, and, and in my mind,

1:16:07

you know, the, the

1:16:09

father or husband provide a role

1:16:11

was okay, I need

1:16:14

y'all and you to allow me

1:16:16

to do this, because ultimately

1:16:18

this , this innumerous back to the home

1:16:21

. Right, right. But

1:16:24

if you ain't got no home, cause you don't push everybody

1:16:26

away. Right . Let's

1:16:32

focus in , that's kind of what , getting back

1:16:34

to what I was saying about , uh, what

1:16:37

God's called you to do, right. God

1:16:40

ain't called me to be a fundraiser,

1:16:43

right? Like this will be your

1:16:45

job. Right. God,

1:16:47

I believe it's called me to be a husband and a father

1:16:50

and the fundraiser assistant

1:16:52

Dean at the uni at the Oklahoma city

1:16:54

university, school of law works

1:16:56

for that. When, when

1:16:58

it doesn't work for that, then

1:17:01

I got to find a new role. Yeah.

1:17:03

And that's been the shift for me over

1:17:06

the past. I don't know, however many

1:17:08

years. Um,

1:17:11

so do you think that has, that

1:17:13

has influenced your decision

1:17:16

to look at calling

1:17:19

for you as seasons

1:17:22

seems like when a season

1:17:24

is in it's in and when a season

1:17:26

is up for you, it's again,

1:17:29

I try not to be too attached to the stuff

1:17:31

that I shouldn't be attached to. Right.

1:17:34

I need to be attached to Gabrielle. I need to be

1:17:36

attached to these kids to the point

1:17:38

until they leave and cleave. Right.

1:17:41

And that's it, you

1:17:43

know? Um, and

1:17:46

then there are other things that I'm attached to, but if

1:17:48

those attachments are

1:17:50

in conflict with my

1:17:52

Gabrielle and kids' attachments and , you

1:17:54

know , focusing on your priorities, right. They

1:17:57

can be good things, but you can't no

1:17:59

, even your child, you're

1:18:01

going to love that child, but it can't

1:18:03

get in between you and Erica. Right.

1:18:05

That's just, it is

1:18:07

, it is what it is. That's the game

1:18:11

love . Now, let me ask you, when you see it,

1:18:14

just pop in mind when you see

1:18:16

these guys and women

1:18:20

who sacrifice everything to

1:18:25

be , uh,

1:18:29

may see the calling and CEO as this,

1:18:31

as that. I mean, I don't know. I just want to know

1:18:33

your, your thought behind. Is

1:18:36

there room for that too? Or is there something

1:18:39

wrong? I don't know. I'm always

1:18:41

just, there's definitely room conflicted.

1:18:44

There there's definitely room for it, but

1:18:46

I also think you've

1:18:50

got to do it on your terms. Right.

1:18:53

And when you've not made those terms

1:18:55

clear early on, people,

1:18:59

people will take advantage

1:19:01

of that. Right. Okay

1:19:04

. All right . So

1:19:09

I was approached about a position a

1:19:13

few months back, right. Looked

1:19:15

at the organization, looked

1:19:17

at their , the people they had

1:19:20

in leadership , um,

1:19:25

looked at their board, had

1:19:29

a list of question , right? One

1:19:32

of them was, I

1:19:37

noticed that you all don't have any

1:19:40

or many minorities on your board.

1:19:43

Uh, and I don't

1:19:45

see any African-Americans. Uh,

1:19:48

and I also don't see any African-American men

1:19:50

within leadership of the organization or on

1:19:52

your board. Right. So I want to talk with

1:19:54

you. I , one of the things I'll be curious about is

1:19:56

your, you know, your efforts on

1:19:58

diversity, equity and inclusion.

1:20:01

Right. I

1:20:03

didn't hear anything back. They did not move forward

1:20:06

with my candidacy, a little

1:20:08

salty. Right. But ultimately

1:20:11

those are my terms . I

1:20:13

need to know how much, how

1:20:15

important this is to you. All right.

1:20:18

Now upfront, because

1:20:20

again talks about

1:20:22

my, my education, my childhood, right.

1:20:26

I got a great childhood, but you know,

1:20:28

a great education at Booker T Washington,

1:20:30

but I was one of a handful of

1:20:32

black kids in the AP

1:20:34

and IB program. Yeah. Um,

1:20:40

I don't need

1:20:42

or desire to be the

1:20:45

model minority in,

1:20:48

you know, in my forties,

1:20:50

particularly when we're talking about

1:20:53

, uh, an organization

1:20:55

that's located in a top 20

1:20:59

top 10 metropolitan

1:21:02

area . Right. Um,

1:21:07

so those are my terms and I'm comfortable with

1:21:09

that. Does it

1:21:11

mean that I may not get to get

1:21:14

to certain opportunities and

1:21:16

that's fine. What I'm

1:21:18

thankful for, with what I have, you

1:21:21

know , currently having my, again, got a phenomenal

1:21:24

, uh, boss

1:21:26

, um, phenomenal

1:21:29

colleagues. We are

1:21:31

a private law school , uh,

1:21:34

in Oklahoma that three

1:21:36

of our seventeens are black. And

1:21:39

so you get recruited by

1:21:41

a black woman, you matriculate

1:21:44

, uh , through law school.

1:21:46

Another black woman is the

1:21:48

Dean of that. You become

1:21:51

an alumnus alumna

1:21:55

and , uh , want to be

1:21:57

engaged. There's a black man

1:22:00

that oversees that. Right. So,

1:22:03

and that's an Oklahoma Homer, right?

1:22:06

Yeah. I'm not

1:22:09

regressing. Particularly

1:22:12

if I go into another

1:22:15

place , uh, go to

1:22:17

another metropolitan area or another

1:22:20

city that is supposedly

1:22:23

more diverse than

1:22:26

where I come from. Right.

1:22:29

So those

1:22:32

are my terms. Now here's the problem

1:22:34

, um, where you don't state

1:22:36

that upfront . Right.

1:22:40

It's hard to address it on the backend

1:22:42

. Right. So , um,

1:22:45

again, when I, if

1:22:47

I have conversations, my

1:22:50

family's important to me, right? There

1:22:52

are certain things that I'm going to be looking for

1:22:55

with regard to structure, how, how

1:22:58

bolts are managed is important to me, how folks

1:23:00

are treated. I believe that

1:23:03

no matter who you are, what

1:23:06

you look like, where you come

1:23:08

from, what's your sexual orientation

1:23:12

preference. Gender

1:23:14

is you have a fundamental

1:23:18

human dignity that deserves

1:23:20

to be respected, right? If

1:23:25

an organization doesn't agree with that,

1:23:28

then we don't need your

1:23:30

, your values and my values don't align.

1:23:33

Right? Yeah. And so

1:23:35

those, again, these are my terms, I

1:23:38

think you can become CEO

1:23:40

or Dean or president

1:23:43

or whatever. Right. But

1:23:45

you gotta be clear about your terms and

1:23:48

what you're willing to sacrifice

1:23:50

and what you're not willing to sacrifice. And

1:23:53

I think a lot of folks who

1:23:55

, um, get

1:23:59

to these high level positions,

1:24:01

but their home life is terrible. We're

1:24:04

not clear about their terms or they

1:24:06

just weren't clear about their priorities. Hey

1:24:09

man, that's that

1:24:11

right there. I like to have this.

1:24:14

That is its own discussion that I kind

1:24:17

of talked through because I mean, I know I've,

1:24:20

I, you know, we all struggle with it to

1:24:23

various extents. And I do think man,

1:24:26

you know , uh , as, as

1:24:29

black men and as black women who

1:24:32

are part of the minority, this, that

1:24:34

is a struggle is climb

1:24:36

being the end, all be all. Or

1:24:40

man is there, are

1:24:43

there some four principles and core things

1:24:45

we should, we should have and to hold

1:24:48

and , and say, even if I don't, you

1:24:50

know, ascend to the, to , to , to

1:24:52

that, to the mountain tops , I'm

1:24:54

still good. Cause I'm still me. But

1:24:57

man, that's another, I , well , that's

1:24:59

something I want to get to, I'll throw another

1:25:01

one at you again. Uh,

1:25:04

me having learned under Donald , uh,

1:25:07

as long as I did you go back to Genesis

1:25:11

and you know, Eve

1:25:13

is called to be a helpmate. Yeah

1:25:15

. And far

1:25:17

too many of us as men

1:25:20

have said, okay, my role

1:25:22

is to be a provider. Um,

1:25:26

you know , um , bring in the resources

1:25:29

is money. Well that, but

1:25:31

also let me see the home

1:25:34

and the running of that over

1:25:37

to my E . But

1:25:40

you know, I'm not in , I'm not talking

1:25:42

about, okay, this is it's to be my

1:25:44

program. This is to me how I see

1:25:47

it. But no, this is a partnership.

1:25:50

This is , uh , you know, Eve as the

1:25:52

help mate . So Y

1:25:55

right, Christian

1:25:57

male, who wants

1:25:59

to run a company, are you

1:26:02

leaving the household

1:26:04

to be totally run by your wife,

1:26:06

which is a company, right. Which is

1:26:09

a company and have no authority

1:26:11

have no idea what your kids are dealing

1:26:13

with, what's going on at home.

1:26:17

But you're, but you're, you're saying you're

1:26:19

professing Christian principle,

1:26:22

right? Th

1:26:26

th that, that the, the

1:26:29

intelligence of the wisdom of that eludes

1:26:31

me. Oh, I hit it.

1:26:33

Um, okay. Last two

1:26:35

questions. And then I'm going to let you

1:26:37

go Colin

1:26:40

and joins flow . What do you think is missing

1:26:43

in the conversation regarding

1:26:46

, um, George

1:26:49

Floyd and the situations

1:26:52

that have occurred around it? And after, after

1:26:57

his passing them would be clear. So

1:27:00

reading the Washington post reading

1:27:02

a headline today, a

1:27:05

little quote underneath, it talks about

1:27:07

how a black

1:27:10

Democrat is worried about

1:27:12

her sons or

1:27:15

her, his son's safety. Whereas

1:27:19

the white Republicans are

1:27:21

concerned about the burdens of

1:27:24

, uh , the

1:27:26

police. And

1:27:30

that was how they spun it. Right.

1:27:32

But I think that's somewhat accurate, right? So this

1:27:34

idea of safety, wellbeing

1:27:37

, life livelihood, life versus

1:27:39

bird. Yeah. Think

1:27:44

about safety. Can

1:27:46

I, can I live versus

1:27:50

what's placed upon me as I live . Yeah

1:27:53

. The fact that,

1:27:56

and , uh , I've

1:28:01

had numerous discussions with

1:28:04

our friend Donald about this, the

1:28:06

idea that , uh, there are

1:28:08

a group , there is a profession that

1:28:11

typically can retire

1:28:14

at 50 or 55, whatever

1:28:17

they just, with a pension , um,

1:28:23

that has given the ability to

1:28:25

make split second decisions

1:28:27

that can result in loss of life

1:28:29

and are given the benefit of the doubt of

1:28:31

those decisions. Right.

1:28:35

Um , yet

1:28:39

have not been given an increased

1:28:41

level of accountability is problematic.

1:28:45

So we need

1:28:47

to look structurally

1:28:51

or systematically. If that that's

1:28:54

what I don't believe is happening

1:28:57

enough. Um,

1:29:01

the idea that someone can say

1:29:05

I was in fear

1:29:07

of my life, or

1:29:09

, uh, and

1:29:13

so I decided to neutralize a threat

1:29:16

when you're in a job that's inherently

1:29:20

dangerous. Right,

1:29:22

right. Uh , those

1:29:26

are part of the risks of the job. Now, in

1:29:29

order to do that again, we

1:29:32

provide both the ability

1:29:34

to retire at an earlier age

1:29:36

with full pension. And I don't have any problems

1:29:39

with that, but there's , something's got to give at

1:29:41

some point, right. Um,

1:29:49

because you can't have it all and

1:29:52

have it every which way. Right.

1:29:56

So we need to , um,

1:29:59

increase the level of training. Right.

1:30:03

We need to, or we need to increase

1:30:05

the level of consequences, or

1:30:08

something's got to

1:30:10

give for

1:30:13

police again, to be given. This

1:30:15

aid is incredibly high.

1:30:19

I mean, the ability is a whole life in your

1:30:21

hand. Right. But

1:30:24

then to say, well

1:30:26

, I was in fear of my life, right. The

1:30:28

reason that we can't, or

1:30:30

that is so hard to

1:30:34

convict a police

1:30:36

officer is because,

1:30:39

right. We've got to convince them beyond a

1:30:41

reasonable doubt, but

1:30:43

yet they are already given the benefit

1:30:46

of the doubt. Right. Police

1:30:49

officer shoots someone. Well,

1:30:53

we automatically think that person must have been committing

1:30:55

a crime. Right. But

1:30:58

then we've got, I mean , the standard is beyond

1:31:00

a reasonable doubt. Well, how do you do that?

1:31:03

When you've already said placed in

1:31:05

people's minds , right. Through our culture

1:31:07

that , um, they,

1:31:12

they, this is what police officers do,

1:31:15

right. This is what they should, they should neutralize

1:31:17

the threat. Right. So it it's, we've

1:31:20

got to, we got to make some real

1:31:22

systemic changes

1:31:25

around what's going on with policing

1:31:29

and as that's good stuff , uh,

1:31:32

let , let me , let me also,

1:31:35

because this is Donald's point, you're not able to be here with

1:31:37

us. Right. But he says

1:31:39

, um, and I think

1:31:41

it's a valid point when we

1:31:43

say that

1:31:46

a police officer is allowed

1:31:49

to shoot an unarmed person. Right.

1:31:54

And not be convicted.

1:31:58

Now they have usurped , not

1:32:00

just the life and

1:32:02

the rights of the person that was, that

1:32:04

was killed. We've

1:32:06

used , served the constitution, right?

1:32:09

Because the constitution says that

1:32:12

you get the right to a jury

1:32:14

trial, right. If

1:32:18

I'm dead, I no longer

1:32:20

get the right to the jury trial.

1:32:23

Now, of course, if that person

1:32:25

poses an imminent threat, right.

1:32:28

Well, there may be reason to

1:32:31

neutralize the threat, particularly in my mind,

1:32:33

if they pose a threat to

1:32:36

other people civilians,

1:32:39

right. Who don't have the ability

1:32:41

like police officers to

1:32:44

go and , and to we'll

1:32:47

make life or death decisions and

1:32:49

get the benefit of the doubt and who are not trained.

1:32:51

Right. So if you need to save

1:32:54

, um, to

1:32:56

, to neutralize the threat, so this, this person does

1:32:58

not kill an innocent bystander.

1:33:02

I can understand that, but

1:33:04

to say my life was in jeopardy.

1:33:07

So I needed to neutralize the threat. Well,

1:33:10

again, yes,

1:33:13

everybody wants to make it home,

1:33:15

you know, alive, but

1:33:17

should that be a

1:33:20

reasonable request or

1:33:22

an assumption in such an inherently

1:33:25

dangerous position

1:33:27

when that's one of the risks of the

1:33:29

position again. And I

1:33:31

think you're right, because the stunt

1:33:34

guy ain't don't change

1:33:36

the risk because I mean, they

1:33:39

may pay him more because he's

1:33:42

, uh , uh, you know,

1:33:45

a stunt double whatnot, but the

1:33:47

job is a job. If you're going to do it,

1:33:49

it comes with what it comes with. Now,

1:33:52

if you say, man, I need more pay. I

1:33:54

need a better pension, which is what they do

1:33:56

for police officers. Because if you retiring at 50

1:33:58

and 55, you're doing pretty good.

1:34:02

Yeah. We're , you're , we're about 14

1:34:04

years away, right. Or nine or 14.

1:34:07

No . Right . Working . Yeah . But

1:34:09

that's not happening. Yeah. Yeah.

1:34:12

So, you know, but Steve,

1:34:16

Stephen G. Butler , thank you so much for

1:34:18

, um, your time , uh,

1:34:21

your energy, your talent, bro.

1:34:23

You really should write this

1:34:26

up, do something. Well, you know what I mean?

1:34:28

That was why me, you and Donald was bringing us

1:34:30

together. We needed to write that article.

1:34:33

And maybe, maybe that comes out of the conversation.

1:34:36

Right. Let's do it For

1:34:40

sure, man. Thank you. Stephen G. Butler foot

1:34:42

, man of your time,

1:34:44

your talent, your treasure. And

1:34:46

man, I hope this conversation

1:34:56

[inaudible] .