0:00

all

0:01

right, listeners, welcome to episode

0:03

58 of new your your enemy i'm

0:05

met sitting in in your your podcast co-host and

0:07

i'm here here with my friend, same other their bell i'm

0:10

at, hey sam usually

0:12

, this is why i i asked how how you're doing, but i

0:14

i think know how how you're doing sandwiches how

0:16

a lot of of us are are doing not

0:19

great you know this is our

0:21

third and final episode

0:23

about how they did it the

0:26

overturning of of roe, we actually recorded this this on

0:28

friday, so we knew

0:30

that they had done it when we recorded this and think

0:32

that affected how , went

0:34

yeah i think for listeners looking

0:36

for our fresh reactions to

0:38

a a terrible ruling

0:40

that knew was coming you'll get it at

0:42

the beginning of the a proper episode right

0:46

in this our third episode we really pickup

0:48

in the early to mid nineties and

0:51

we could have approach this a lot of different

0:53

ways and we focus

0:55

on the coterie of intellectuals

0:57

around first things magazine which

0:59

was founded the nineteen ninety the kind intellectual

1:02

oregon of the religious right we talk about by

1:04

the richard a new house people like

1:06

robert george princeton professor and

1:08

hadley arcus professor an important figure

1:11

in the anti abortion movement himself who also

1:13

it's an academic and and political philosopher

1:16

and go through the bush administration

1:18

that and kind of take it to the present so

1:20

this is how we wanted to close out and i think

1:22

it's and story that it's haven't

1:25

read as much about elsewhere it's much very

1:27

know your enemy style approach

1:29

to this history which our listeners will appreciate

1:32

but think we do kind of justify why

1:34

looking at the relationship between the popular

1:37

energies that we talked more about

1:39

last time and the elite project of anti

1:41

abortion politics which became

1:43

so much more important in the nineties and leading into

1:45

bush administration i think we justify why

1:47

that approach makes sense and gives

1:50

us a lot of opportunity to to explore

1:52

side of this history that like you said i

1:54

haven't listened to her read as much about elsewhere

1:57

yes and of course we talk about

1:59

a lot of these figures that knew so

2:01

you get some met stories to

2:03

in this i should say from my perspective

2:06

one of real advantages of this episode

2:09

is that we get somewhat of insider

2:11

account of this intellectual mail you

2:13

because of your erstwhile

2:16

engagement with engagement with listeners will enjoy

2:18

that i'm sure and again there's two previous

2:20

episodes can listen to so either back

2:22

listen to those if you'd like it gives some of the contacts

2:25

and can't we pick up where we left off but

2:27

other than that sam think should just some

2:30

housekeeping items and get get to it as

2:33

, grateful to to apartments at the scent who

2:35

sponsor the the podcast we love

2:37

working with them and one of of the the things they do

2:39

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2:41

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2:43

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2:46

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2:48

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2:50

of of our our bonus episodes, so please

2:52

do consider doing that that and as it's always to thank

2:54

our brilliant intrepid producer jesse

2:57

beretta man who has separate the wheat

2:59

from the chaff and the so

3:01

really lengthy episodes that we've given him

3:03

on this topic i think with there's will not

3:05

be surprised to hear that we over prepared

3:08

for every single one of these episodes and had hours

3:11

and hours material and jesse did

3:13

an excellent job finding the through line

3:15

that you guys we'll get to enjoy without all

3:17

the digressions and then

3:19

as always we want thank will epstein does

3:21

the music for podcast yes

3:23

that's right well should we get to see

3:25

him i think just like to say as

3:27

we may be don't do enough that i'm just

3:29

so grateful to the listeners and subscribers

3:32

who let us do this a this three

3:34

part project i'm really proud

3:36

of it i wish that there

3:38

was not the occasion to do a story

3:40

about how the right defeated roby

3:43

, and undermined reproductive freedom for

3:45

millions of americans but but

3:47

that there is an opportunity and indeed

3:49

an urgency to do something like this i'm i'm

3:51

really grateful that the that want

3:54

to hear us engage with this story and

3:57

give us opportunity to do so yes

4:00

everyone's sports the podcast

4:02

and how

4:06

each other and hang in there

4:25

alright let's get started sam this

4:28

is again our third and final episode

4:30

on how they did it overturning roe were

4:33

recording this on friday june twenty fourth and

4:35

so we now know they did in fact do it yeah

4:38

i've been depressed all day frankly

4:40

it really fucking sucks fucking know like everybody says

4:42

like we knew was coming we had no

4:44

reason hope that it wasn't but the

4:46

actual actuality a that reading

4:48

the opinions of course of thomas'

4:50

concurrence would even takes to another level

4:52

with with talk about a moment's yeah

4:55

with feels like slow motion disaster

4:57

in some ways steel bianchi weighted by things

4:59

like

5:00

today supreme court ruling we we look

5:02

back at history and kind of remember

5:04

the cataclysmic events right outta

5:07

the punctuation marks but years

5:09

go by in between some of these

5:11

more signal moments i know exactly

5:14

mean i mean it's you know when you've read the

5:16

history as tumultuous bluntly

5:18

tumultuous devastating times there's

5:20

a condensation of

5:23

the events that

5:25

are cataclysmic

5:27

, disrupt the normal

5:29

see of everyday life life

5:31

a book that is very attuned to the everyday

5:34

life of living in bad regime or in

5:36

bad time it's condensed

5:38

and there's something about living through

5:40

history that's very different from reading history

5:42

which is that lights actually you just

5:44

gone just and then every

5:46

once in awhile these things happen in and you

5:48

have to sort of incorporated into that like

5:50

daily ness daily don't want to

5:52

you know taking the focus off know taking

5:54

overruling of row but the concealed

5:56

carry decision yesterday yeah

5:59

the

6:00

further getting miranda rights

6:02

as yeah i less like i

6:04

think part of the reason this hit the way

6:06

it did was in of itself

6:09

this

6:09

is a decision that just was

6:11

angry and sad depressing use

6:14

whatever terms you want but i think in the

6:16

this broader context just feels like they're

6:18

all out assault in the way especially like

6:20

thomas' opinion in the dobbs

6:22

case flat out says griswold

6:25

a burger cel lawrence immense them

6:27

in the context of substantive due process feels

6:29

like they're going for it in certain weight

6:31

by think have a chance to talk more about

6:33

like what comes next

6:36

think the end the conversation but i didn't wanna

6:38

pass by the thomas concurrence

6:41

to quickly right now because

6:43

you know we knew what was in a leaders

6:45

opinion and it was as far as can tell pretty much

6:48

unchanged but should

6:50

not be the said

6:52

that right after that came out certain

6:54

kind of people certain kinds of people i think you

6:56

are smart and vigilant about

6:59

the right said well the

7:01

logic this opinion you know alito

7:03

said oh no they shouldn't be

7:06

interpreted to mean a thing about other non abortion

7:08

precedents involving the liberty clause

7:10

or whatever you know said that they said well let's

7:12

not be stupid and naive hear these people

7:15

want to undo the

7:17

entire rights revolution and

7:19

it's attendant presidents and so of

7:21

course they're coming for the

7:23

a marriage for contraceptive

7:25

rights and for lord see

7:27

texas when invalidated sodomy laws

7:30

and thomas of course proved those

7:32

people right and the people to set of course they won't do

7:34

that you're not crazy thomas proved that

7:36

vigilance sucks right because

7:38

he literally sad that this

7:40

other substantive due process rulings

7:43

has to be reexamined we have to quote

7:45

correct the error established by those

7:47

presidents and he described

7:49

those rulings as demonstrably erroneous

7:52

decisions and wilde nobody else

7:54

on the courts signed onto thomas'

7:56

concurring de sac that one

7:59

oz the conservative movements

8:01

avatars on the bench said

8:04

, no of course like let's not kid ourselves

8:06

if we don't think the liberty clause in

8:08

the fourteenth amendment protects abortion

8:11

in way that row suggested it does it

8:13

also doesn't protect the right contraception

8:15

and families it not protect

8:18

the right to same sex sexual

8:20

activity does not protect marriage equality

8:23

and again just as we would have it's stupid

8:25

to assume that they wouldn't

8:27

go after those rights when we saw leaders

8:29

opinion we would be even more

8:31

naive to assume that to assume not next steps

8:34

yeah i mean we're living under the some

8:36

hours a anti democratic

8:39

clara see i'm on

8:41

elected oligarchy go are making

8:43

decisions to deprive masses

8:45

of people in this country of their rights it

8:47

is worth stating that plainly

8:50

i do have the sense that they're

8:52

really

8:54

going for this at a time also

8:56

when yes the republican party

8:58

might win

8:59

the presidency outright and twenty twenty four

9:02

you know take back control congress

9:04

through elect or means but at you get the

9:06

sense that the these justices know

9:08

their insulated from public

9:11

opinion and get pissy in way i

9:13

think they just know that it'll be

9:15

awhile before any electoral backlash

9:18

reaches the sites of court

9:20

yeah yeah you know lawrence

9:22

be texas was two thousand and three

9:25

and i remember learning about lawrence

9:27

the texas in high school and

9:29

thinking what the fuck they

9:31

just made laws

9:34

against sodomy illegal in this country

9:36

to me i was like you know surrounded by gays

9:38

i was like like how

9:41

could that be and then course as

9:43

i could have been matured politically i saw

9:45

you know the fights over marriage equality

9:47

and you know as we've talked about before like

9:50

even barack obama had says say

9:52

that he wasn't pro marriage equality when he ran two

9:54

thousand eight the ten by twenty fifteen

9:56

my sister and her wife got married

9:58

the day after bird of health it's

10:00

just the again like that the experience

10:03

of of ones individual life in

10:05

historical time is such as strains

10:08

i don't know mournful kind feeling

10:10

and truly terrifying if i'm being honest

10:13

especially i think right

10:15

now i've been horrified

10:17

but but interested in a way to in the

10:19

way today surveillance

10:22

technology will interact

10:24

with the repeal of row right yeah like

10:27

apps that track your menstrual

10:29

cycles yeah you know google searches

10:31

even digital records that sort

10:33

that might indicate someone is pregnant

10:36

or perhaps looking to find

10:38

a place they can get an abortion that's

10:40

really dystopian yes yes again

10:43

and it's like it would be naive

10:45

not to start thinking about that we

10:47

know that like the main role but

10:49

the state continues to feel confident

10:51

it's ability to effectuate its aims

10:53

is via its repressive apparatus

10:55

you know like palin

10:57

tier is still has contracts

11:00

with the us government to surveil

11:02

people and make databases

11:04

and track people in their movements

11:07

geo locate them and like them

11:09

intersection that you're pointing to between states

11:12

making abortion illegal and then

11:14

people who need to get abortions

11:18

picking them in other states and

11:20

then capacity of state to use repressive

11:22

surveillance technology to track

11:25

and punish people who do those things it

11:27

is not a time to be

11:29

suspicious of the most dystopian among

11:31

us i think it's time to take them they're seriously

11:34

yes with all that said we're

11:36

going to return to the present at the end of this conversation

11:38

but we do need to fulfill

11:40

our obligations that we set out

11:42

of the beginning this project this three part

11:45

series on how they did

11:47

it and zoom back inside that here

11:49

because we left off last time we were talking

11:51

with the nineteen nineties and this moment

11:54

where the antiabortion movement

11:56

was at the door of the pilot's

11:58

seat of the conservative movement

12:00

and so professionalizing and

12:03

establishing itself as the mainstream

12:05

the republican party but i think there

12:07

are parts of the story of we haven't told yet

12:09

which are kind of how that off

12:11

happen in the nineteen nineties how it sounded

12:13

to fruition in the george

12:16

w bush presidency and

12:18

then and then of fall out from that leading

12:20

us to trump so that's story

12:22

want tell now before we return

12:24

think the end to some more looking ahead

12:27

yes we can have left off in the

12:29

early nineties i mentioned

12:31

the republican and democratic conventions

12:33

and eighty ninety two which seemed

12:35

to me like these very

12:38

dense symbols of the

12:40

will listen sorting the movement of anti

12:43

abortion voters into the republican party and

12:45

the democratic party becoming the

12:47

party that's committed to abortion

12:49

rights and refused allow bob

12:51

casey to speak as at the nominating conventions

12:54

yes ah which buchanan mentioned

12:56

pat buchanan who's speech the rnc

12:58

i i dwell upon so

13:00

you know we have this kind of sorting that's taken

13:02

place in the nineties

13:04

or interesting because he

13:06

starts see the consequences of that i

13:09

say one thing know we talked about

13:11

for he recorded was there at

13:13

least relative decline in

13:16

violence directed at abortion

13:18

clinics doctors who perform abortions

13:21

things like that yeah in

13:24

the eighties and early nineties the sort

13:26

mean visible manifestation

13:28

the antiabortion movement was this public

13:30

confrontation on the sidewalks on

13:32

the streets in front of abortion

13:35

clinics where militants christian

13:38

anti abortion activists

13:40

engage in clinic blockades

13:42

where they were deliberately blocking

13:45

people from getting abortion

13:48

and other kind reproductive care and

13:51

the numbers i have from joshua wilson's book

13:53

i'll say again between nineteen

13:55

seventy seven and ninety ninety five there

13:57

were recorded six hundred thirty nine

14:00

the blockade and thirty three

14:02

thousand seven hundred fifteen arrests

14:04

related to those actions stand

14:06

for ninety ninety six twenty ten

14:09

they recorded only one hundred twenty five clinic blockades

14:12

one hundred nineteen arrests and we

14:14

did sort of tell the story last time but

14:16

an important factor in the sort of changeover

14:19

from a street politics of abortion

14:21

to a more a lead and sort of

14:23

in the halls of power politics of abortion

14:25

is that nice ninety four there was piece of

14:27

legislation passed the federal level to

14:30

increase the penalties for people

14:32

who engaged those sorts of actions

14:34

on and some the people who had been

14:36

engaging and what were in in principle

14:39

kind of civil disobedience actions

14:41

against abortion clinics

14:43

were no longer willing to take those sorts of risks

14:45

and so that that was part the decline

14:48

and it should be sad that

14:51

in the nineties while the

14:53

number of clinic blockades decreased

14:56

there were a number of very

14:58

prominent murders of

15:00

people who performed abortions and

15:03

as talked about last time that has to

15:05

do with fact that those people who continue

15:07

to engage in these kinds of street factions

15:10

tended , be the much more militants

15:12

hardcore fringe of the anti abortion

15:15

street political movements were as a lot

15:17

of other people move to different tactics and

15:19

one of those tactics which i didn't mention last time

15:21

but is really important is that

15:23

some ways what happened was that this kind

15:25

of like blockade and likes

15:28

quote unquote sidewalk counselor style

15:31

antiabortion street protests move

15:33

from the streets into crisis

15:35

pregnancy centers and one or that one the

15:38

startling statistics about this

15:40

statistics that in twenty seventeen

15:42

which is the last time could find comprehensive

15:45

data on this there were

15:47

one thousand five hundred eighty seven facilities the us

15:49

that we're providing abortions

15:51

and that included clinics hospitals

15:53

and positions offices at the same

15:55

time there were twenty five hundred

15:58

crisis pregnancy centers

16:00

in lot of places the wrote their roots

16:02

many times more crisis pregnancy

16:04

centers than there were abortion facilities

16:06

so there is still a good place for grassroots

16:08

anti abortion activists to intimidate

16:11

otherwise coerce women into

16:13

not getting abortions but instead

16:15

of doing it out in the open in the streets they did

16:17

it in these very deceptive

16:20

nonprofit organizations which were supposedly

16:23

to provide information for women considering

16:25

getting abortion but we're actually just designed

16:27

to convince and same women into not

16:29

getting abortions and of course to

16:32

mention the decline in some these numbers

16:34

isn't do play them at all nor

16:37

is it to i think downplayed the kind

16:39

of role that's street

16:41

action the violence hand early

16:44

in the anti abortion movement yes

16:46

do want speculate but that kind

16:48

of as imagery those kinds of actions

16:51

i think it does and of expand

16:54

the window possibility yeah makes

16:56

political leaders i think stand up and take notice

16:58

in some ways you know get that there was energy

17:01

there is power here there people willing

17:03

to really go all out

17:05

yeah midnight and think this can

17:07

lead us to our next the next part of this discussion

17:09

because i think part of symptomatic

17:12

li what this move from

17:15

uncontrolled violent

17:17

confrontations into

17:19

a more respected ball and sort of

17:21

less extra political domain mobilization

17:24

is exactly the story want to tell about nineties

17:26

i mean we mentioned last time that

17:28

first things have this absolutely

17:31

despicable series

17:33

as of of responses to quote

17:35

unquote killing abortionists which i

17:37

think of as sort of like

17:39

the last hurrah of

17:41

a movie intellectual anti abortion

17:43

forces responding to that era the movement

17:46

but then what becomes more and pour

17:48

in his the other work that first things

17:50

is doing and service oh sees intellectuals

17:53

are doing to make what was sort of

17:55

this

17:56

even at that point this kind is some

17:58

what disreputable friends the movement

18:01

into something that was acceptable

18:03

by the mainstream we finished our episode

18:06

last week by you quoting

18:08

bill kristol the or republican

18:12

operative and neo con saying that

18:15

abortion was the quote play crossroads

18:18

of , politics and

18:20

so mad i know that you've done lot of research

18:22

on this what did that sort of

18:24

intellectual metabolizing

18:27

of the antiabortion movement

18:29

look like you eighty nineties nineties

18:32

maybe just to help the timeline some

18:34

first things was founded in nineteen in

18:37

and say the symposium

18:39

on quote unquote killing abortionists

18:41

i think that was ninety ninety four they

18:43

also had i think within a year to have

18:45

that the also infamous symposium

18:48

on the end democracy

18:50

question marks yachting the judicial

18:52

usurpation politics an imposition

18:55

usurpation righteous american people of

18:57

permissive cultural stances yes

19:00

basically and course it may nineteen

19:02

ninety four as well versed in published evangelicals

19:05

and catholics together right christian

19:07

miss him in the third millennium and think that

19:10

that statement in particular it has

19:12

lot of the algae and it mapi now

19:14

areas of fundamental

19:16

shared convictions between different kinds

19:18

of christians and of course once

19:20

they moved from theology to

19:23

what this means practically in terms of politics

19:25

culture society abortions right

19:27

there as the the key issue really

19:30

and it's worth saying that the sort of meetings

19:32

that resulted in that statement

19:34

which was signed by was bunch

19:36

of leaders from the southern baptist

19:38

convention from evangelical fellowship

19:40

from pentecostal assemblies of god

19:43

and from catholic or intellectual leaders

19:46

the meetings that started meetings motion

19:48

that compacts teaser

19:51

of them were since we didn't were see more more these

19:53

days began in september nineteen eighty

19:55

are getting this from are book that we're going to

19:57

rely on bit in this conversation from damon

19:59

linker spot

20:00

the icons and those meetings

20:02

began in september nineteen eighty two sofort

20:04

for two years there these are discreet meetings

20:06

amongst leaders of these confederations

20:09

as different groups

20:11

that's right and i you know i am

20:14

says the timing of on this because i

20:16

do think it's interesting that first things is

20:18

found did you write as

20:20

the street level violence the number

20:23

start to drop again the federal legislation

20:25

you mentioned as that's happening you

20:27

have this gathering of

20:29

forces a by a

20:31

very importantly richard john new house and

20:34

the founder first things who you

20:36

know think one reason some of this

20:38

work the way it did was he began as began lutheran

20:40

minister yeah so he

20:43

i think could speak to protestants boasts

20:45

with certain fluency their language

20:47

their concepts the references he

20:50

had more credibility i think you

20:52

have any other kinds of catholics

20:54

might and so your new house is

20:56

so important i have for a number of reasons

20:58

again as the convener of first things

21:01

as someone who brought evangelicals

21:03

and catholics and others together to fight

21:05

back against the forces secularism

21:07

and the judicial tyranny

21:10

that they saw the new house converted

21:12

catholicism and eighty nine be

21:14

a year later he was ordained as a catholic priest

21:17

and it a big fun party for everybody because

21:19

her to move and when he was ordained bill but he was

21:21

there yes his conversion

21:23

really both from left

21:25

to right and from price into catholics

21:28

it really is a kind of signal events

21:30

you know he was a true liberal

21:32

activists that yeah said he march

21:34

was dr king's he was founder

21:36

of the clergy organization that

21:38

oppose vietnam that included i think

21:41

abraham joshua hassle isn't i

21:43

think was arrested in chicago and nineteen

21:45

sixty eight at the democratic

21:47

convention he was someone who contemplated

21:49

revolution i mean he did that book

21:51

with peter burger the same sociology religion

21:54

where they there's like a dialogue

21:56

about like how corrupt america was

21:58

and what the possibilities might be

22:00

for revolution a new house was like the

22:02

more a revolutionary figure in that dialogue

22:05

but want to read something just because of how

22:07

much it resonates with some

22:09

their rhetoric today we see on the rights

22:12

and this is again thank you from nc vehemently

22:14

for his book that the opens from that

22:16

book there's of of a passes where he's

22:18

quoting at length from new house

22:20

this is again before his move right i

22:22

just want to read some this because of the language

22:25

new house propose that the country was controlled

22:27

not by an impersonal quote unquote system

22:30

as many other radicals claim that by

22:32

quote unquote regime this

22:35

regime was not too extensive with the society

22:37

but was rather was rather power wielding group

22:40

in society including not only

22:42

nineteen and primarily does were publicly recognize

22:44

because they hold officer electoral politics

22:47

military industrial complex so and so forth

22:49

but it was this elite regime that

22:51

he was taking aim at and

22:54

you can see his move right it's really

22:57

just stab almost transposition

22:59

have some of these categories and terms

23:01

just from the right then you

23:03

know right kind of critique of regime

23:05

that kind of language it's striking

23:08

because it's so prominent on the right these days

23:10

and he was saying this you know back the seventies like

23:12

from the last one thing that interests

23:14

me is like what is the

23:16

difference substantively and

23:18

they be as actively qualitatively and sort

23:20

institutionally between the

23:24

hang u s coalition

23:26

of religious conservatives that we

23:28

might see beginning

23:30

with the moral majority and that earlier

23:33

story we told and our last episodes

23:35

and this this moment of

23:37

coalition building in nineteen nineties

23:40

centered around first thing center around people

23:42

like new house what are the

23:44

qualitative difference is between these

23:46

two moments and and the sort of nature

23:48

of this strategy that was sort of manifested

23:52

in that coalition and the kind

23:54

ties that bounds i'm well you

23:56

know and that new house even

23:58

before row he had

24:00

made statements are written things critical

24:02

of liberalizing abortion law so

24:04

it's not like his views on abortion totally changed

24:07

but after row it ,

24:09

a factor in his moving right and

24:11

kind of also had to do with

24:13

a critique of of

24:15

the cultural effervescent of the sixties

24:18

you might say he was reactive against

24:20

the counterculture even though as

24:22

a protester as as someone who marched

24:24

he wasn't always that way he obviously tolerate

24:26

for period of time but ya later on he described

24:28

the sixties as slum of of

24:32

and also you know just as we describe

24:34

last time that abortion have

24:36

important it was often was

24:39

rhetorically part of a broader

24:41

assault on secular godless

24:44

humanism right now as gay rights

24:46

your rave feminism all these

24:48

things are the mix of really interesting

24:50

episode that think kind of cemented

24:53

new houses move right was the

24:55

disappointment and jimmy carter as the first

24:57

like evangelical president brand

25:00

a in particular there was meeting at white

25:02

house alice a conference on families

25:04

and nineteen seventy nine a belief and

25:07

already like some

25:09

cultural progresses were in the democratic party

25:11

and they push for it be renamed

25:13

like the meeting on families plural

25:15

friends and family to kind accommodate

25:18

to range of different

25:20

family arrangements and this

25:22

set new house off and ended up not

25:24

going the meeting and eight episode

25:26

of lot evangelicals to and

25:28

it was kind of i think one of the last draws

25:31

have some of the warm religious

25:33

conservatives had felt towards jimmy carter

25:35

as like again first season celikkol

25:37

president this nineteen seventy nine so

25:40

you know by the eighties new house had

25:42

basically moved rights and an eighteen eighty four

25:45

he wrote a very timely book called the naked

25:47

public square you know naked

25:49

meaning like religion had kind of hounded

25:51

out of the public square and this was like

25:54

big book that helps explain

25:57

what's going on with religion united

25:59

states but importantly here

26:02

in terms of where we're going is the

26:04

religious right as it exists kind at this

26:06

point you know again mid eighties i heading

26:08

towards the nineties were prevent dwell for bit

26:11

one the things new house believed was

26:13

that does lot of energy here is

26:16

some political muscle here but

26:18

if he wanted to and abortion in america

26:21

or overturn roe basically

26:24

the falwell types the evangelicals

26:27

the fundamentalist those kinds people there was

26:29

going to a natural limit to the support they

26:31

could garner just because as he put it's

26:33

the experience of being born again

26:35

is not readily translatable

26:38

to people who have an experience it themselves

26:40

ha ha themselves the language

26:42

they use they rhetoric these was

26:44

not second nature to lot

26:46

of people felt sectarian and it felt

26:48

kind of like extreme two and two

26:50

gauge month that flows from that sort faith

26:53

just would have limits since appeal limits

26:55

so what we really see her as

26:57

the beginnings in as way of he

27:00

to put it this way but just to kind of put bluntly

27:02

the even telcos provided the muscle but

27:05

summer like new house that they like to be tutored

27:08

yeah and how to talk about these and in

27:10

a pluralistic democracy in

27:13

edo does the reason we started some

27:15

of this conversation with describing the

27:17

street level violence because that

27:19

describing something that would turn off

27:22

people's whose views might just be kind of in

27:24

the middle the road right yeah yeah

27:26

so like in that era of like

27:28

protestant televangelists the street

27:30

level violence all those things

27:32

that kind of don't seem very sophisticated

27:35

or intellectual new house i think

27:37

saw that he could kind

27:39

of guides for those energies and

27:41

side of be a bridge between the popular

27:43

energies and then of be

27:46

party note conservative

27:48

strategists in intellectuals associate

27:50

with republican party and

27:52

in lot of ways what first things did

27:55

because it's not everyone says catholic publications

27:57

not quite true quite was founded was an estimate

28:00

nicole journal for the kind

28:02

of conservative forces in catholicism

28:04

processes and judaism right

28:07

and this projects that coalesced

28:09

around first things i think really was

28:12

catholic intellectuals teaching

28:14

evangelicals are how to talk about

28:16

this in a way that felt less sectarian

28:18

any kind of baldly religious

28:21

so , this is so interesting because it's

28:23

fascinating to see this kind of like intellectual

28:26

a cast like figures sort

28:28

of saying like we have language

28:31

to express these grievances which

28:33

you protestant populist

28:36

down home weirdos don't

28:39

that which if you adopt new participate

28:41

in this coalition with us we

28:44

, get even the neo cons

28:46

these godless jews jews

28:49

adopt and that is the past

28:52

to achieving what reagan dinner

28:54

and to fighting back against

28:56

that clintonites you know lascivious

28:59

sandinista administration was

29:01

that is administration right yes right think i

29:03

think so and i think it's

29:05

were seen here that one

29:07

the things i've thought lot about

29:09

of the cause about doing this podcast and think

29:12

never more so then these episodes

29:14

on row and the fight over

29:16

abortion rights is

29:18

, to handle the

29:20

populist elements as they relate to the intellectual

29:23

ones because you know as nerds

29:25

ourselves like i'm naturally

29:27

drawn to the ideas people right

29:29

in i want to believe that i under have a role

29:31

in the world even if these ideas i disagree

29:34

with and this is a persistent problem

29:36

in writing about conservatism

29:38

in the right yeah you know you folks

29:40

national review and intellectuals or populace

29:42

energies and think you know by

29:45

focusing on new house i'm not

29:47

trying to over play the

29:49

role ideas and intellectuals but in this

29:51

case i think it was really important because

29:53

first things and this is something that

29:55

dame and linker points out of

29:57

kind his but the feel cons it's

29:59

also the play on neo cons and

30:02

in lot of ways first things was kind of

30:04

like religious neo cons very rare

30:06

iowa they backed they iraq war someone

30:08

like michael novak was

30:10

again at left to right convert to talked

30:12

about capitalism in spiritual

30:15

terms even yet the

30:17

project was broad based but

30:19

in way you know it was that neo

30:21

cons who held find and set up

30:23

first things i , getting midst

30:26

actor recently deceased was

30:28

on the first things board fair number

30:30

of neo cons were were think you

30:32

know by the time you get to bill crystals quote about

30:34

bloody abortion mean the bloody crossroads

30:36

of american politics that we closed

30:38

last episode with bill kristol

30:41

same something like that is

30:43

another measure of what was

30:45

happening in the republican party around these

30:47

social conservative issues right

30:49

and been the most important of them will maybe

30:51

before we get to george w bush

30:54

as the for expression of this

30:56

coasteering as neo con and

30:59

anti abortion evangelical forces

31:01

which i think is before

31:03

we get there i think to figures that figures know

31:05

that you have lot of thoughts about

31:07

and personal relationships were

31:09

relationships at perforation ships with and

31:11

were very interesting in this project of

31:14

sort of articulating and intellectual

31:16

and political language around abortion

31:19

which is not based on evangelical

31:21

revel a tory language

31:24

are have arcus and

31:26

rubber p george both of whom we mentioned

31:28

last time in particular because they contributed

31:30

some of most noxious passages

31:33

to the killing a bersin nests

31:35

symposium but both of whom

31:38

also represent the seems me

31:40

to sort of translators as

31:42

anti abortion rhetoric and to in elite

31:44

register and intellectual register

31:46

oh yes someone once asked me

31:48

like how deep were you in conservative

31:50

movement and i said well i saw robbie george

31:53

play the banjo in a back ports because

31:55

i can assess assess assess i

31:57

do think this kind of triumvirate an

31:59

unholy trinity

32:00

by the new house alley arcus and robbie

32:02

george are extremely important because

32:05

, thing is that robbie george and

32:07

he does his doctorate under john cena said oxford

32:10

and john cena says like the most important

32:13

important language natural law theorists

32:15

in english speaking world you might you and

32:18

robbie droids really kind of

32:20

picked up the mantle of natural mantle

32:22

theorizing about abortion

32:25

and same sex marriage and

32:27

contraception and what robbie george

32:29

did so well along with new house

32:31

and arcus is translators

32:33

conditions into the seemingly neutral

32:36

language of natural law that justifies

32:38

the socially conservative positions space

32:41

very interesting me as a person who's you

32:43

know neither cast like nor raised protestants

32:45

there's funny scene where like does catholic

32:47

natural law tradition is so long standing

32:50

and has a sort complicated relationship

32:52

with liberalism and the

32:54

kind articulation of right the

32:56

odd to me that the catholics

32:58

who are seen for most of american history as soon

33:00

as i the weirder ones

33:03

you know the ones who i like you know

33:05

as you were taught when you're young like the pope is

33:07

probably the anti christ and

33:09

catholics not to be trusted because they

33:11

have loyalty to the pope

33:13

instead as to the president the

33:15

nation like split catholic sexy

33:18

in their intellectual capacity as conservatives

33:21

have resources to rely on with in their theology

33:24

to articulate natural

33:26

religious arguments for

33:29

metaphysical facts which

33:32

the protestants who base

33:34

their metaphysical police on revelation

33:36

do not that becomes useful

33:39

for them in wielding sort elite political

33:41

power is that like i mean i'm i'm saying this

33:43

is a total kind of like center as an outsider

33:45

to this stuff but it is this weird thing can't

33:47

always gonna wrap my head around yes

33:49

no i think that's a pretty fair description

33:51

and summary sam you know like someone

33:54

like robbie towards would simply say a

33:56

fertilized eggs and embryos

33:58

is distinct

34:00

biological entity with

34:02

it's own dna different then

34:05

his mother and father to combination of

34:07

the to write and ,

34:09

you know unless the process of gestation

34:12

development and birth is interrupted

34:15

it has all the i think robbie

34:18

with these lines of like self organized

34:20

biological activity right like letter

34:22

it's own devices it's will continue to develop

34:25

and so yeah there's no point

34:27

in this continuum where you

34:29

really can say this is the moment it

34:31

becomes human life is like my it's very

34:34

distinct human life from the start but that's not

34:36

an argument that says god

34:38

told me abortion

34:40

is not proof texting it with script rovers

34:43

even us against do and you

34:45

know i think at robbie george not only was

34:47

he trained at oxford in as

34:50

like philosophy in the sense but like

34:52

yeah someone like venus and robot to kind of

34:54

legal theorist to so

34:56

, a really interesting way

34:58

in which as anti abortion

35:00

forces increasingly realize

35:03

the courts were going to be their their

35:05

path to and in row

35:07

and by the mexicans the person person

35:10

is three years if it

35:12

is clear like as the big bang theory

35:15

you left reagan boom everything changes that

35:17

wasn't true it's so interesting me

35:19

that the kind of political

35:21

philosophers less lethal theorists

35:23

rise in prominence on the right

35:26

as that kind of court centric strategy

35:28

takes place in the indictment of the

35:30

categories and rhetoric that someone like

35:32

rabid george was steeped

35:34

in lends itself especially to

35:36

like legal disputes and arguing

35:39

as and lawyer might yes yes

35:41

lawyer that's so interesting and engine

35:43

and obviously like the number of catholics

35:46

who are of catholics conservatives on the court

35:49

there is no is no accident yes

35:52

to that for i've enjoyed let's hang about how arcus for

35:54

a second because we brought him up on

35:56

last episode you've had your own

35:58

encounters to tennessee have

36:00

george i don't know i don't think he plays the banjo

36:02

he knew s for one thing i'm the only

36:04

do in magazine the banjo i

36:09

, say hadley does nuts he's a great

36:11

performer in many ways to send looks like

36:13

groucho marx do so it's it's kind of

36:15

funny but now he does not play the banjo

36:17

so tussler bit more about him we

36:20

know from our last episode that he's a strauss in

36:22

in role does he plan this story well

36:25

i mean hadley is sorry

36:27

our from to buys hers name because

36:29

there's a simple your period where so

36:31

heavily pretty heavily including

36:33

at seminars put on by madison

36:36

program kind of outfit

36:38

at princeton that robbie george runs

36:40

that's really like the most impressive

36:43

an effective of these conservative

36:45

beachheads on campuses that we've described before

36:48

and it was you know at some of these like workshops

36:51

for say younger

36:53

conservative his graduate

36:55

students phd students and young faculty

36:57

were you go to princeton for two weeks

37:00

yeah and we'd stay at the hotel around

37:02

the the yankee doodle tap room for

37:04

instance denizens i recognize that

37:06

gotta i hope we don't have any listeners who went

37:08

to princeton of

37:12

, it again when i talk about effectiveness

37:14

of a conservative pipeline

37:17

be hanging out like week

37:19

and half or so at princeton

37:21

with people like robbie george

37:23

hadley arcus harvey mansfield

37:26

young didn't go down list i've never

37:28

experienced anything quite like then left but

37:31

hadley is passing to me because

37:34

it because profound disagreements with sadly

37:36

with think his behavior the past few years and

37:42

yes but he would always

37:45

reference the famous oscar wilde anecdotes

37:48

of oscar wilde been like on his

37:50

deathbed and like coming to and looking

37:52

around and same

37:54

here these drapes go where i do the

37:58

saw he loved that story so

38:00

he went he was kind of like like that

38:02

but he was a strauss in and

38:04

stuff like roby george isn't so

38:07

were find is heavily fits into

38:09

this is we mentioned this way

38:12

back when but some listeners

38:14

might be familiar with harry

38:17

jaffa is the jurisprudence

38:19

called declaration ism right

38:21

which in a lot of ways is a critique

38:23

of the positive ism originalism

38:26

right

38:27

that is just kind of like castro analysis

38:29

it's just looking at the bear words and

38:32

for some like headley he had more natural

38:35

rights jurisprudence were

38:37

, his legal theory was

38:40

under gutted by cannons

38:42

of morality and reasoning that like was open

38:44

to the natural human mind in that sense unaided

38:47

by revelation or whatever but it was

38:49

it was like a it was critique

38:51

of originalism some ways i

38:53

don't know whether our whether

38:55

studied with java but i know

38:57

that from know few things a few that he's

38:59

really really approved of

39:02

java us interpretation strauss that

39:04

like for him java was

39:07

you know the key figure sort of maybe

39:09

even kept him in the strategy unfold because

39:11

a lot the other shots in seattle he was subsequently

39:14

turned off by which is not surprising given

39:16

that he became so close

39:18

to religious right yes i think that's

39:20

right sam it is interesting i

39:22

grieve there with you just said but i it's

39:25

funny i never really thought as heavily

39:27

as a west coast drowsy per se but

39:30

now that think about his work was firmly

39:33

rooted in american politics and

39:36

in kind of these issues of again

39:38

jurisprudence constitutional interpretation

39:40

and so on so he that release of

39:42

jaffa totally makes sense to me yes

39:44

now one the fast sentence by hadley

39:46

artist is that the you mentioned he

39:49

is jewish that he converted to catholicism

39:51

he converted into a ten and i remember

39:54

it must have been they may

39:56

be two thousand six or

39:58

seven hadley came to

40:00

or event we had georgetown under

40:04

, banner the tocqueville form the conservative

40:06

beachheads i help patrick to mean started

40:08

towards stamps and i remember

40:10

remember there was a dinner after this panel

40:13

and i suspect almost everyone

40:15

there was either catholic christian some

40:17

kind of course hadley and converted

40:19

yet but i knew he would

40:21

eventually because as we sat

40:23

down to dinner and like as or

40:25

food was sir he

40:27

as someone to say grace mean

40:30

it it was could be solely meant like the catholic

40:33

tradition all prayer before me oh bless

40:35

us oh lord the east i guess which we're about

40:37

to receive from thy bounty through christ our lord

40:39

a man and he christ

40:41

himself afterwards and

40:44

and then just a couple years later he did

40:46

convert catholicism and ice at

40:48

this is a case where i think

40:51

he became convinced of sort

40:53

natural law

40:55

in the catholic position abortion before

40:57

he became convinced of other i read

40:59

catholic church kind of the politics came

41:01

before theology but theology did

41:03

com and so headley is catholic now

41:06

and , is sort of like speculating

41:08

bet i think one the interesting things

41:10

for the sake of the podcast the story that were telling

41:12

his lights how is it that these

41:15

these cons some who remains u

41:17

s come to think that

41:19

as pressel says that abortions

41:21

the body crossroads it's the sort

41:23

of litmus test for whether the

41:26

republican party and conservative

41:28

movement and fulfill it's obligations

41:30

to it's constituencies

41:33

that the fact that sort strauss eons

41:35

being in the next of the first thing

41:37

first as gets really

41:39

interesting and illuminating because it adds

41:41

this kind of element kind make you

41:43

know the philosopher in the and the politicians

41:46

of the religious person and the sort

41:48

of like practical mcanally

41:51

in politics like it's kind of like

41:53

strauss him seem the be

41:55

useful for the kind of

41:58

oh hearing of the

42:00

religious right which finds

42:03

it's manifestation , bush

42:05

administration for harmonizing

42:08

the religious impulses of the base

42:10

with the kind of world bestriding

42:13

impulses of the elite yes

42:16

i think that stephanie right and

42:18

the really is kind of catholic strauss

42:20

in

42:21

lane a , you put away that

42:23

some people are in i think of my

42:25

old friends who died few

42:27

years ago peter august and lawler lawler

42:30

mahoney and assumption college i

42:32

guess you could call hadley a catholic strauss

42:34

you now yes and

42:36

you know there some reasons that one is m

42:38

it's leo strauss is natural right and catholic

42:41

natural law or not the same thing but

42:44

thing squint that

42:46

the premises that reason can strive

42:49

to find the truth right yeah

42:51

which fits very well with catholic metaphysics

42:53

the algae natural want the horizon in general

42:56

and edo strauss again

42:58

dependent how you read him provides

43:00

another version of that catastrophe narrative

43:03

writers as we the stress put it in

43:05

we three waves of maternity you

43:07

service hobbes lock and by

43:09

the end of the narrative yo

43:12

you end up the camps right

43:14

yes once you embrace historicism

43:17

relativism those kinds

43:19

things you know there's a lot of ways in

43:21

which those categories of strauss's are

43:24

quite compatible with

43:26

catholic thinking right right way and catholicism

43:29

the strides in ancient tradition

43:32

in modern tradition so it's

43:34

sort of if you arc catholic stasi and

43:36

you can kind of see like well maybe this

43:38

maybe this thing that we assess it they can hold

43:40

it together because they transition from classic

43:42

philosophical thought modern so soft

43:44

core thoughts is the place where the

43:46

rapture takes place but

43:48

if you're catholic maybe yeah

43:51

maybe you can hold together yes

43:53

and one quick point to agree with you seem

43:55

to i would add i don't want to overemphasize

43:58

this but i do think

44:00

cause strauss seen as i'm

44:02

has the esoteric esoteric

44:05

the station i think there's a way

44:07

in which that probably helps some

44:09

people this orbit were describing

44:12

make peace with the jungles

44:14

been the muscle on the ground yes

44:17

that's exactly what i was gonna ask any intellectuals

44:19

then kind of extending

44:22

, arguments are positions in more

44:24

philosophical mode in a way that

44:27

was intelligible to other conservative

44:29

intellectuals and people judges

44:31

people on courts yes i again

44:33

i don't want to overplay that but i think it didn't hurt

44:36

that those kind categories where play

44:38

and that you could in fact kind of of

44:42

again to go back to father new house the kind rough

44:44

around the edges evangelicals you kind of

44:46

appreciate what they brought to the table

44:49

even if you yourself were of

44:51

brandy drinking cigar smoking

44:53

intellectual who love to hang

44:56

out with boys and tough ideas because

44:58

that here is you know there's some great photos

45:00

of like great photos that x is one of robbie to

45:02

explain banjo were like father

45:04

new house and towards weigel

45:07

the few others are like smoking cigars and drinking

45:09

whiskey or brandy or something well as kind

45:11

of like have a visual depiction

45:14

of this of this dynamic where

45:16

it's like first rabid yours is

45:18

city sort like situated in that in that image

45:21

as like the conduit between

45:24

the populace energy is and the kind of like

45:26

here we are the real people making

45:28

the decisions and having a real conversations

45:30

real are enlightened philosophical

45:33

idiom which is not the one that will

45:35

mobilize the base by is by one

45:37

that we need i mean this is one the things

45:39

that i think it's hard to think

45:42

about in retrospect because we live

45:44

in a time of populism in

45:46

time of like a sort of ascendant populace

45:48

and in which the problem is that the

45:50

elite has lost touch with

45:52

it's populist impulses the ability to

45:54

speak to it's actual base the

45:56

nineties were a time the

45:59

send it in a crowded hubris

46:02

rights and so in a way

46:04

the more important thing for this drowsy and to do

46:07

is to translate

46:09

the

46:10

in how it affect his spiritual

46:13

impulse is of the demos into and

46:15

language which the elite

46:17

philosophical clerisy could understand

46:20

so that they could then pursue

46:23

those ends right through

46:25

politics gets kind of the reverse

46:27

of what comes to happen the trump era yes

46:30

yes and does maybe we

46:32

can kind of push forward a bit

46:34

and as we move forward one thing you see

46:36

is that you're really the first

46:38

things project culminated

46:41

the george w bush administration right

46:44

sir george w bush very famously

46:47

either would call the to done he has

46:49

father richard i think there was

46:51

there was a gathering of journalists at

46:53

the white house the bush convenes maybe press

46:55

conference something like that but said

46:58

i love listening because his job

47:00

, already been out said father

47:02

richard helps me articulate these religious

47:04

things a credible

47:06

and gravel and new house was house

47:08

adviser to the bush administration and

47:11

it was precisely the kind of evangelicals

47:13

that new house and first in swine

47:16

to kind of the brains for yes

47:18

and these people first things

47:20

and people like father new house like

47:23

pete waner or michael

47:25

gerson waner was a a

47:27

you know our high level aid the bush white house

47:29

michael gerson was bush's top speech

47:31

writer both evangelical christians

47:33

basically had a direct line to the bush administration

47:36

to those two figures were actual

47:39

staffers an initiation they were first things

47:41

products well they were even

47:43

jello fools who i think they would in

47:45

first things readers in

47:47

a in they they they were interested

47:49

the project to because again they were

47:52

not the rabble they were yeah

47:54

i you know speech writers intellectuals

47:56

people who i think had kind

47:58

of com to maturity

48:00

in world where something like first

48:02

things existed and they worked out expose

48:04

these ideas now ,

48:06

want talk about the bush administration some because

48:10

because is a few points i want to make here one

48:12

of them is that so as someone

48:14

who like lived through the bush years

48:16

as an adult i said have mentioned

48:18

yeah damon's books that the cons

48:21

i think is really misunderstood at the time

48:24

year when it came out during the bush years people

48:26

wanted to dismiss it dismiss freaking

48:28

out as theocracy which was

48:30

like a rhetorical trope at the time you

48:33

know yeah like kind of like republican simply

48:35

than science they're dumb religious people

48:37

right that was a real thing during this time and

48:39

think it's unfortunate that aims for kind of that wrapped

48:42

up in it friend lisa sets damon

48:44

was an editor at first things right says

48:46

he he saw this first hand yes

48:49

was strauss in train political philosopher

48:51

damon was an editor at first things and really broke

48:53

with them over the iraq war

48:56

and , i think he kind of saw so

48:59

often happens once you make that in the so break

49:01

you find see the rest of it for what

49:03

it is and , book was partly

49:05

the the fruit of that and think

49:07

we'll probably have conversation with damon on the

49:09

pot some point oh oh yeah definitely

49:12

and this is a funny thing to just throw in here

49:14

it's the claremont review of books or view

49:16

us as the or kinds from their

49:18

spring two thousand and seven issue the

49:21

headline was a tell all with nothing

49:23

to tell who is

49:25

this it was his essay the dame in like

49:27

really lost like lot as friends

49:30

and took stand against people

49:32

who had

49:33

previously been his intellectual

49:36

, and allies by writing

49:38

this book yes and you know that kind

49:40

of response the book book

49:42

when i finally reddit few years later

49:45

i was struck by how much of it is really good

49:47

intellectual history of especially

49:50

this this kind of cohort of

49:52

catholic neo cons basically

49:54

right so you know having lived through that

49:56

period defined as the accuracy

49:58

panic even someone like

50:01

into sullivan oh ,

50:03

a his book called the conservative soul

50:05

in , is posted two thousand and six

50:07

maybe and that is it

50:09

was basically about fundamentalism and what

50:11

he at the time called christian isn't right

50:14

right is this kind of faith based politics

50:16

that is too rigid

50:19

not skeptical and us and you know especially

50:22

during

50:22

this period of time like grounded in certainty

50:25

i think one of interesting things about the bush administration's

50:27

is the fact that we look back

50:29

on the bush administration and we think of

50:32

the iraq war and the financial crisis

50:34

to deregulation that produce

50:36

certainly the ground for barack obama

50:38

become elected and anti war

50:41

and kind as a as are progressive

50:43

populist figure i'll stand

50:45

by that popular figure if you ever knew anybody

50:47

was talking about that about thousand eight elections

50:49

which is to say that we forget this

50:51

element of lights on the liberal

50:54

side of things the fact that like a lot

50:56

of the preoccupation with bush was that

50:58

he was a theocrats and that he had involves

51:00

all these evangelical thinkers

51:03

in his administration and it's policy making

51:06

and that this theological dimension

51:08

of his administration was extremely

51:10

profound and one the things that's forgotten

51:13

because it isn't the saying that produced

51:15

the worse things about his

51:18

about , he did as president right

51:21

i mean obviously we can say that like

51:23

there's like the hubris deck christianize

51:25

a nation building project

51:28

but of course a lot of people who pushing that we're sort

51:30

of atheist neo cons who just

51:32

believed that you could export american

51:34

democracy abroad and didn't have to

51:36

have a serious religious dimension

51:38

so so i'm just saying that like in retrospect

51:40

we think less about the fact that

51:42

the bush administration really was and

51:45

apotheosis of this this

51:47

conservative project and in particular

51:50

this apotheosis of elite

51:52

religious conservative project or sort of the reconciliation

51:55

of a populist evangelical

51:58

movement with

52:00

elite neo kind or as dame would

52:02

say theo kind politics

52:04

, it really is striking

52:07

how religious the bush administration

52:09

was was of first

52:11

kind of the president goes on tv

52:13

to give a speech kind of thing dressing

52:15

the nation was over stem cell research

52:18

right right you had tears shy

52:20

though that was major a

52:23

of course you know you can't separate the religion

52:25

from things like their rak or a similar

52:27

michael gerson his traitor who i mention

52:29

said that this was the iraq war was like compassionate

52:31

conservatism abroad brave friend

52:34

or do have to remember to the entire project

52:36

of compassionate conservatism was

52:39

essentially to funnel essentially money to

52:41

religious organizations that did

52:43

social organizations charity work at said

52:46

yes right and a importantly

52:48

anti abortion politics in this kind of

52:50

cultural conservatism were conservatism

52:52

as in karl rove strategy

52:55

for bush assembling

52:57

like the electoral majority he needed

52:59

we don't we didn't get that nonsense but

53:02

like there was an article written by men

53:04

and deal hudson i think increases

53:06

magazine called doesn't have

53:08

have swing and the point was

53:10

that catholic vote this is sort true

53:12

descriptive li whether it's a kind

53:14

of cause or consequence i can't say

53:16

but it is typically the case that

53:19

the catholic vote will end up aligning

53:21

with the person who won the presidency

53:24

like you know either kind of a a bit

53:26

a swing vote or least at this point time they

53:28

seem to be that way and so

53:30

you have to remember too that this

53:32

is the period of time when republicans were

53:34

really thinking okay we have to sauce

53:37

and or message on immigration become

53:40

party this friendlier to hispanic voters

53:43

and and rove saw something

53:45

in issues like abortion because abortion lot

53:47

of hispanics are catholic he

53:49

saw that as is kind of this

53:52

one piece of a how to assemble this

53:54

puzzle and yet was himself was

53:56

evangelical famously intimacy

53:59

yeah intimacy think this was

54:00

late nineteen ninety nine at the start the republican

54:02

primaries don't want the debates or canada

54:04

forms or whatever george , bush

54:06

was as to his favorite political philosopher

54:09

was was answer was

54:11

christ because he changed my heart wow

54:14

what i love is qualification a political

54:16

philosopher so yeah i love

54:18

the idea that lights george w bush that

54:20

price was his favorite political philosopher but

54:22

yeah we came to a piss demolish he

54:24

he was more about british idealist or something

54:26

fitness as as a

54:30

totally mean i think it is

54:32

a last part of the

54:34

george w bush legacy just

54:36

how important these

54:39

theological commitments were and

54:41

how anxious liberals were

54:43

about this kind theocratic

54:45

dimension and kind administration

54:48

yes and you know dimension do think for

54:50

people over forty especially journalists

54:53

i'm not trying to be naive

54:55

or act like trying one was talking

54:57

about this at time know weren't yet it

54:59

they really works and it's just me is interesting

55:02

how that part of it has dropped out more

55:04

than other parts we don't necessarily think

55:06

own as foreigner as like posts

55:08

liberal integralist sir anything like that

55:11

so sick as those people i've come to be very

55:13

critical of his foreign policy and indeed

55:15

of his selling out to foreign

55:17

pacers capitalist so

55:19

he kind sits in the sound of strange

55:21

way into in up in our to political memory

55:24

high the part of parts of his agenda

55:27

which works the apotheosis

55:29

as far as his can tell us this

55:31

elite

55:32

project of sanitizing religious

55:34

conservatism is for

55:36

the washington d c consensus yes

55:39

data for guy and part of his legacy

55:42

i want to emphasize a couple things

55:44

here you know we spent lot time

55:46

talking up first things and new house

55:48

and robbie george and and

55:50

the artists the reason we did so

55:52

was because unlike some intellectuals

55:56

robbie george and hadley arcus both

55:59

made really press go contributions

56:01

to conservative cause which is

56:04

heavy artist was that basically the author

56:06

of and kind of intellectual force

56:08

mind behind the born

56:10

alive infants protection act of two thousand

56:12

and two that was signed

56:14

by president george w bush and what

56:16

that did was it meant fits

56:19

an infant who was born alive after

56:21

basically assailed abortion attempt

56:24

was protected in law the end

56:26

game and later wrote piece the new republic

56:28

describing this is like a are a

56:31

bit of trap right because

56:33

who could object to the

56:35

naturally alive incense being

56:37

given care the legal pertains

56:40

but because it was tied to abortion

56:43

it was kind like the camel's nose

56:46

under the tent it was can say well

56:48

it is this child deserves

56:50

protections five minutes

56:52

after their out the womb after a failed

56:55

abortion why not ten minutes

56:57

prior what's the real difference here

56:59

and sees any the kind of argument about

57:01

continuity that there's nothing

57:04

for people like arcus arriving george

57:06

or for the new house basically

57:08

, world by being birth was

57:10

not significant benchmark yes

57:13

yes yes so heavily arcus again was

57:15

the author of the borderline infants protection

57:17

acts and then among

57:19

the other religious aspects of the bush administration

57:21

you have to remember he ran on

57:24

a constitutional amendment banning

57:27

same sex marriage break into

57:29

doesn't for when for for reelection and

57:31

that legislation was authored by

57:34

probably dorje great friends are

57:36

these are you intellectuals who we really

57:38

place that kind of first things in the

57:41

early to mid nineties part of

57:43

this project of taking

57:45

the impulses of impulses religious right cleaning

57:47

them given it a language that was

57:49

more acceptable , liberal

57:52

institutions whether it's you

57:54

know legislation or the courts or

57:56

whatever they both literally

57:59

authored important pieces of proposed

58:01

legislation and hadley case it

58:03

passed in rabbit george's it didn't

58:06

but it really is this case where

58:08

intellectuals really mattered bobby

58:10

george also contribute as an amateur brief

58:12

to the dobbs case where case where

58:15

on the basis of seat personhood

58:18

there should be a fourteenth amendment protection

58:20

to unborn fetuses

58:23

right and that has been his project

58:25

for their of a long time of course

58:28

the are none of decisions were made today

58:30

acknowledge fetal personhood that it would

58:32

not be unreasonable to imagine it as you sure

58:34

where that is the legal a stick

58:36

projects that they are you

58:38

know six three conservative majority takes up

58:41

by guess mean these people are not like

58:43

just abstractly opining

58:45

about the

58:46

issues of abortion

58:49

gay rights from academia

58:51

or in the pages first things they are

58:53

actually writing laws

58:55

and writing briefs that well being

58:58

considered by you , the the

59:00

conservative political and legal movement that they

59:02

helped to belts yes so

59:04

you know cent of summarize a few things here

59:06

during bush administration you have in

59:09

his second term john roberts and

59:11

same alito appointed to the supreme court

59:13

which yeah you know from the perspective today

59:16

clearly was a big deal deal it was

59:18

really as you know the torpedoing

59:20

of the harriet miers nomination remember

59:23

she was bush's kind of like a texas crony

59:25

some kind of lawyer in the bush administration see

59:27

was the first appointed to succeed

59:30

sandra day o'connor on supreme court but she

59:32

didn't have the federal society ties and

59:35

as a texas person you know

59:37

how they are has teaches at amhurst ravage

59:39

words teaches princeton father new

59:41

else based new york city she

59:43

was not a kind of kind reliable

59:47

person for them so he appoints alito

59:49

and roberts making the robber daniel

59:51

chief justice he than you have

59:54

the infant born alive protection act you

59:56

have stem cell research decision

59:58

you have running on constitutional

1:00:01

amendment banning same sex marriage and

1:00:03

to doesn't for in addition to everything

1:00:05

else writes yeah lot of

1:00:07

like red meat for social conservatives and

1:00:10

the other thing think it's worth noting to

1:00:13

, type of you a sense when

1:00:15

bush ran for reelection in two thousand and four

1:00:17

against john kerry of course this

1:00:19

was an occasion when catholic bishops

1:00:22

were talking about denying communion to john kerry

1:00:24

because he was pro choice choice

1:00:26

you have that kind of intervention by

1:00:29

during was debates with carry he

1:00:31

was asked about the kinds of justice

1:00:33

as he points and his answer

1:00:35

centered on dred scott right

1:00:39

, it was read the coded language

1:00:41

to anti abortion activists that

1:00:44

just as spread scott was denied

1:00:46

his humanity so are

1:00:48

the fetuses not protected in

1:00:50

law in are quote unquote

1:00:52

abortion on demand regime in

1:00:55

that to me bush named checking

1:00:57

dred scott

1:00:58

the presidential debate seems like

1:01:00

a combination of something to me that

1:01:02

such specific rhetoric i'm sure lot of viewers

1:01:04

were like what is he talking about but

1:01:07

, was really an indicator

1:01:09

of just how steeps bush

1:01:11

wasn't some of this and who the people around

1:01:13

him more yeah i think it's probably worth

1:01:15

pointing to to other achievements

1:01:18

of the antiabortion movement during

1:01:21

the bush years years

1:01:23

that sort set motion during bush years and

1:01:25

here i'm relying little bit on married

1:01:28

zegers new but she's

1:01:30

of course one of the great writers

1:01:32

on the history of of conflict

1:01:35

in legal and political lies

1:01:37

in america she wrote after

1:01:39

rao and her new book is called dollars

1:01:41

for lice the antiabortion movement

1:01:43

and father republican establishment and

1:01:46

uplifting to she points to that were important strategies

1:01:48

the anti abortion moving in this era included

1:01:51

the attack on campus science

1:01:54

legislation and it was very conscious

1:01:56

choice in the part of some the leaders

1:01:58

of of anti choice myth to

1:02:01

participate , that jurisprudence

1:02:03

that led up to citizens

1:02:05

united and in citizens united itself

1:02:08

the thinking was that basically

1:02:10

a lot of these pro abortion movements were

1:02:12

nonprofits a who could

1:02:14

in post citizens united world

1:02:16

spend unfettered amounts money on

1:02:19

elections elections basically to to

1:02:21

continue this process that we've

1:02:23

been describing all along of making

1:02:25

the anti abortion constituencies

1:02:29

indispensable to winning of for helping and primaries

1:02:31

as well as general license and so

1:02:33

they did participate in anti

1:02:35

campaign finance reform movements and

1:02:37

in the combination of that was his the two thousand his the

1:02:39

really after bush was out of office

1:02:42

in foreign citizens united another

1:02:44

big thing that she points to is that during these

1:02:46

years one the things that he bush moon was

1:02:48

really good at and this this really

1:02:50

eye opening to me but

1:02:52

makes perfect sense was that as

1:02:54

grassroots and sort of like political

1:02:56

education phenomenon talking

1:02:58

to voters wherever they can find them about

1:03:00

fact that electing republicans

1:03:03

mans that the republicans could choose

1:03:06

the people who are gonna be on supreme court

1:03:08

and that those people would a overturn roe

1:03:11

this seems like obvious to obvious now

1:03:13

that they've done it but you actually

1:03:15

in order to create like create constituency

1:03:18

that is invested obsessively

1:03:21

on the courts as

1:03:23

and the means for achieving this

1:03:25

particular political and yes

1:03:27

have to explain people like look whoever

1:03:29

it is if they get elected they will have

1:03:31

the opportunity to change composition

1:03:33

the core and thereby overturn roe and

1:03:36

, was an explicit messaging project

1:03:38

of various antiabortion organizations

1:03:40

during the bush and obama

1:03:42

era and it is lays the groundwork

1:03:45

for what will get towards the and here

1:03:47

of why trump was

1:03:49

able to lock down the

1:03:52

anti abortion of though by

1:03:54

outsourcing his supreme court

1:03:57

decision making to the federal society

1:04:00

the final thing that she points to which i think is

1:04:02

actually extremely interesting and

1:04:04

useful for again setting

1:04:06

the table for trump winning the evangelical

1:04:09

vote and then sort of like completely trump

1:04:11

define the evangelical movement as

1:04:13

it she suggests that the anti abortion movement

1:04:15

learned and they learned this from casey

1:04:17

from the fact that some republican

1:04:19

nominated justices did not vote

1:04:21

to overturn roe v wade was

1:04:23

that they needed to not

1:04:25

just make ravi weighed a litmus

1:04:28

test for these judges but they

1:04:30

also used to make sure that they were getting

1:04:32

judges who were willing who

1:04:35

into or if not court

1:04:38

controversy from the voters and

1:04:41

she suggests that even thomas'

1:04:43

confirmation hearings was a kind

1:04:45

of like learning moment for the movement

1:04:48

because it was like can we

1:04:50

convince people that if a person is

1:04:52

accused of like having bad character

1:04:54

and having done something wrong like for example

1:04:56

and thomas' case sexual harassment workplace

1:04:59

can we overcome that obstacle and

1:05:01

convince the republican

1:05:03

base that it's worth supporting these nominee

1:05:06

is instead of cultivating

1:05:08

of cultivating within the conservative legal

1:05:10

movement that it's not as important if but

1:05:12

these people are on right side of things but

1:05:14

that they're willing to endure

1:05:17

the blows of supporting an

1:05:19

unpopular in

1:05:21

from their perspective religiously righteous decision

1:05:24

i mentioned harriet miers earlier but that

1:05:26

sequence of events so fast say because

1:05:28

basically sandra day o'connor and out she

1:05:30

was going to retire and , bush

1:05:32

nominated john roberts replace her but

1:05:35

then just a few weeks later the chief

1:05:37

justice william rehnquist died of cancer

1:05:39

so then roberts moved from

1:05:42

been o'connor's replacement to

1:05:44

feeling ruthless vacancy

1:05:47

and so it was then that myers

1:05:50

was nominated to replace o'connor but

1:05:52

then it's samuel alito who

1:05:55

after myers is torpedoed he's

1:05:57

the new nominee and course he's the

1:05:59

person today wrote the majority opinion

1:06:01

overturning roe i mean you've said this

1:06:04

before in the podcast but it was

1:06:06

a kind of disappointing of bush

1:06:08

on behalf of the religious

1:06:11

right near antiabortion movement that

1:06:13

force ten the degree

1:06:15

to who's alito over

1:06:18

harry name yes and you know as

1:06:20

we move toward the president's i really

1:06:22

think this important you when we're talking

1:06:24

to her friends from five to four one of things

1:06:26

we pointed out was that creation of the concert

1:06:28

of legal movement the federal society

1:06:30

and related groups is an audience

1:06:32

for supreme court justices rights

1:06:35

and feel like that ,

1:06:37

with me when i was like reading the opinions

1:06:39

today and mention that to say

1:06:41

that this is what it looks like when

1:06:44

of have grassroots movement bankers

1:06:47

a party and

1:06:49

and kind of can get their way because

1:06:52

essentially if you think back even during

1:06:55

fairly recent history say mitt romney right

1:06:57

running for the republican nomination he

1:07:00

, a totally reverse

1:07:03

his former position on abortion is governor

1:07:05

massachusetts

1:07:07

right yeah you can't you basically can't

1:07:09

get the republican nomination with

1:07:11

out expressing fealty to

1:07:13

the anti abortion movement rare

1:07:16

, and you know i just think like

1:07:18

were that kind of matters maybe bring this up to trump

1:07:20

is just that it's a really is kind

1:07:22

of amazing that this guy who probably

1:07:24

is paid for abortions right for

1:07:26

began friday that he clearly

1:07:28

was not like adept at the movement

1:07:31

lingo because remember the

1:07:33

interview where the interview well of course

1:07:35

we should punish women who get abortions

1:07:38

yes and no the anti abortion

1:07:40

intellectuals nasa's like no no no you're

1:07:42

not supposed to say that even though that might be

1:07:44

where we're going now yes yes at time

1:07:46

it wasn't helpful say that yes and it's the

1:07:49

obvious conclusion of this is the

1:07:51

kind of ludicrous things these people once

1:07:53

caught murder and then say

1:07:55

the person who pays for the murder

1:07:58

or initiated

1:08:00

get any kind of punishments trump

1:08:02

was just a logical and be like yeah of

1:08:04

course yeah you know it kind of blurted

1:08:06

out the truth as he sometimes does but

1:08:09

, was so interesting to me that we make so

1:08:11

much of trump's heterodoxy right

1:08:13

on foreign policy on economics

1:08:16

the way he kind smash through the

1:08:18

old fusion as consensus consensus

1:08:20

yes the issue he totally

1:08:23

one hundred percent conceded

1:08:25

everything conceded was

1:08:28

judges an abortion and

1:08:30

we know literally the federal society

1:08:32

you know to him up list of potential

1:08:34

nominees that's he was going pick from

1:08:37

when you think about that that of all

1:08:39

the things trump departed from right

1:08:42

wing orthodoxy on

1:08:43

abortion was not it know

1:08:45

yeah exactly even though as we know like

1:08:48

he was he had express procure centers

1:08:50

before it certainly was earth's surface

1:08:52

pro choice in his life

1:08:54

we would not unreasonably imagine

1:08:56

yeah it's an incredibly important points and

1:08:58

then we can say that like the tea party

1:09:01

was like there was extent which obviously

1:09:03

it was funded by the

1:09:05

coke send another kind as

1:09:08

capitalist formations are

1:09:10

unfettered by came her finance

1:09:12

and etc and etc we also

1:09:14

know that like as trump would later

1:09:16

say we said mouth muzzle time to the podcast

1:09:18

he said while the tea party movement that's just does

1:09:20

just mega now and that movement

1:09:23

really was reinvigorating

1:09:26

of a popular space with the republican

1:09:28

party which you know maybe

1:09:30

to put in the terms that you've written about format

1:09:32

the bush era it was sort the peak

1:09:34

of this sort of confidence of the

1:09:37

conservative movement riding the tiger

1:09:39

ah the populace forces

1:09:41

beneath it and tea party movement was the moment

1:09:43

where they kind lost control of that

1:09:46

isn't even though they succeeded

1:09:48

in kind of like keeping the populace

1:09:50

energies the tea party movement on

1:09:52

tennis pro market

1:09:55

lines it nonetheless was

1:09:57

a popular upsurge which

1:09:59

then lay the groundwork for trump

1:10:03

and , had a market religious

1:10:05

character though that is sort

1:10:07

been understood more in retrospect them at the time

1:10:10

but trump a space in

1:10:12

most reliable tampa space with this white evangelicals

1:10:16

right yes in way that you set this

1:10:18

up is useful because god

1:10:20

like the really was a moment where was like

1:10:22

how can the christian conservative

1:10:24

movement support a man who

1:10:27

in his personal character and in

1:10:29

his personal life so

1:10:32

the abjectly betrays those

1:10:35

basic principles right and calculation

1:10:38

that think a lot as

1:10:40

the sort of movers and shakers in the

1:10:42

antiabortion movement made was

1:10:44

that like well if this

1:10:46

guy can't win i'm

1:10:49

last where there with him then

1:10:51

don't we own him you know like don't

1:10:53

we have him completely in

1:10:55

our grasp i think that was sort

1:10:57

of the elite calculations to some degree

1:10:59

for for the antiabortion movement

1:11:02

like once he said like i'll

1:11:04

outsource this to the federalist

1:11:06

society you know they're on board

1:11:09

i mean jersey be both campaigns

1:11:11

and spoke and governed

1:11:14

as a true believer like

1:11:16

an evangelical christian and

1:11:18

, feel like that's so interesting to

1:11:20

me in terms of thinking about trajectory

1:11:22

the republican party because to

1:11:24

have a boss boss

1:11:27

claimed to have had this religious experience

1:11:29

of put him in touch with touch

1:11:32

was like the ultimate job he synthesis

1:11:34

right it's not just a bush better bush

1:11:36

who was an alcoholic and cocaine

1:11:38

addict to became born again yeah

1:11:41

you know as part of his recovery but you can see

1:11:43

like that's the marriage of the have

1:11:45

establishment wing the blue blood

1:11:47

bush's father george hw bush right

1:11:49

that kind of republicans and

1:11:51

the evangelical base bush in

1:11:53

his very person kind of combined them yeah

1:11:56

now you know my senses that

1:11:58

bush is probably sincere in

1:12:01

his own mind that

1:12:02

i do remember when

1:12:05

, you know ice my first semester

1:12:07

at georgetown as a phd student was

1:12:10

was fall two thousand and four when

1:12:12

buses running for running and

1:12:14

if i said before the packers his nephew

1:12:16

was in the class eighty eight he was in

1:12:18

he sexes go out to eat

1:12:20

out because the campaign was going on he would raise

1:12:22

his hand say will uncle george this or uncle

1:12:25

george that was just really my

1:12:27

cock at math but remember my

1:12:29

professors steve wayne who was

1:12:31

a scholar of the presidency and that really

1:12:33

interesting courses unlike the psychology

1:12:36

presidential leadership and all that leadership i

1:12:38

remember it as it did give

1:12:40

us in his office give day he said

1:12:42

matt all this bless like born again

1:12:45

come jesus moment stuff said i don't

1:12:47

buy it i think laura told him

1:12:49

you the clean up your after your asses out

1:12:51

soon any so

1:12:53

it's kind of haunted me in a way that's also

1:12:56

the explanation for lot of people's conversion

1:12:58

experiences yeah there was woman

1:13:00

i mean i've never had that problem but i've

1:13:02

heard of have ssssss

1:13:05

but they're all this heard of say i think one

1:13:07

kind of factor in

1:13:10

the

1:13:11

response to trump the relationship to

1:13:13

him of these christian conservatives is

1:13:16

that they had one their own and george

1:13:18

w bush in ended in disaster right

1:13:21

yeah no idea where it doesn't

1:13:23

really matter if the person in

1:13:26

office the person you're voting for

1:13:28

supporting really deep down

1:13:30

and his heart bleeds this what good does that

1:13:32

get us and you know i do think it's important

1:13:34

to realize that trump his support

1:13:37

among religious conservatives was

1:13:39

always like ,

1:13:41

people more the margins right like pentecostal

1:13:45

creatures and people like jerry

1:13:47

falwell jr right who wasn't

1:13:49

ordained he wasn't ordained scholar like he simply

1:13:51

ran ran dance university he

1:13:54

wasn't quite in the old religious right model

1:13:56

my also turned out to the as you

1:13:58

know like across south yeah i

1:14:00

also think was a certain point where they just

1:14:02

knew trump was going be the nominee so

1:14:05

what do do yeah , back the winner

1:14:08

and i would say say purely

1:14:10

transactional nature of

1:14:13

the religious rights relationships trump i

1:14:16

have to imagine was kind of like clarifying

1:14:19

and maybe than helpful they could

1:14:21

you write enough to gauge what really believes in his

1:14:23

heart he didn't have to pay way

1:14:26

he of his personal commit to this issues is

1:14:28

literally here's list of judges we

1:14:30

appoint them right yes he

1:14:33

there's something about that about that

1:14:36

analyze this in politics

1:14:38

pure transaction isn't the worst thing

1:14:41

you know what you're going to get then i became

1:14:43

even religious idiom in or sell to justify

1:14:45

it to themselves or yeah her had

1:14:47

side remember if we talked about this on bike as

1:14:49

before but it's the cyrus king cyrus

1:14:51

yes who was himself

1:14:53

this sort of outsider figure who

1:14:55

came to power and then was then figure

1:14:57

who you know allow the as either

1:14:59

as israel a israel returned to jerusalem when

1:15:02

was looking into this trump as cyrus

1:15:04

discourse i found this really great article

1:15:07

by a former know your enemy

1:15:09

guess tara isabella burton friend of parts

1:15:11

which he wrote for vox into any eighteen

1:15:13

and this is both from that piece cyrus

1:15:16

and serves as a persian king is not

1:15:19

jewish and does not worship the god israel

1:15:21

he has nevertheless portrayed in isaiah as

1:15:23

instrument of god and unwitting conduit

1:15:25

through with god a sex is divine plan

1:15:27

for history cyrus is therefore the archetype

1:15:30

the unlikely vessel seen one

1:15:32

god has chosen for an important historical

1:15:34

purpose despite not looking like for

1:15:36

having the religious character ours and obvious

1:15:38

man of god unlikely vessel thats

1:15:40

great minds yes trump is the

1:15:42

vessels and irises trump as the vessel for

1:15:44

a divine intervention that would not necessarily

1:15:47

suspect someone like trump with deals

1:15:49

and and also notable for certain kind of evangelical

1:15:52

leader matt you'll you'll not be surprised

1:15:54

by this another i sort

1:15:56

marco and trump's favor as cyrus

1:15:58

is that the most famous versed in which iraq

1:16:00

is referred to as as anointed

1:16:02

by god's is they

1:16:04

are forty five and trump president

1:16:07

forty five yes ,

1:16:09

really is just the numerology

1:16:11

like that basing think that the number versa

1:16:14

whatever it's is kind of crazy when you think about

1:16:16

it right in the original tests of as a there's not

1:16:18

chapter breaks right as or as it is

1:16:20

assisted and so you know just

1:16:22

as cyrus liberated the

1:16:24

israelites and allow them

1:16:26

to return to jerusalem and rebuild temple

1:16:29

trump moved the embassy the

1:16:31

us embassy to jerusalem a high

1:16:34

and and die in indeed bibi

1:16:36

netanyahu was one the people

1:16:38

it just all these evangelicals who refer to

1:16:40

trump is cyrus figure two at all sets

1:16:42

assess all sets and when

1:16:44

you read this like evangelical

1:16:46

you know pseudo theological accounts

1:16:49

of why trump is you

1:16:51

know not i kiss of religiously tolerable but

1:16:53

a religiously important figure

1:16:55

in fact that trump is

1:16:57

cyrus thought experiments

1:17:00

is helpful for trump because his

1:17:02

character flaws are

1:17:04

no longer like this strike against them

1:17:06

it's more like a religiously a significant

1:17:09

signal that he is the real thing right

1:17:11

like seats he looks more like

1:17:13

cyrus in so far as he is an outsider

1:17:15

in so far as he does not represent

1:17:18

the kind of expected norms of

1:17:20

community that he can fulfill

1:17:22

it's greatest obligations

1:17:24

and said of it's greatest aspirations

1:17:27

for the very fact that there's that kind of income

1:17:29

grew and see between who

1:17:31

he is and what he's doing yes

1:17:34

that's kind of the argument and

1:17:36

of obviously like this is like when it's

1:17:38

classic example of the way that like consensus

1:17:41

even talk or protestant hermeneutics

1:17:43

can justify anything but

1:17:46

it is the case that you can find evidence

1:17:48

for this in like pulling one example

1:17:50

that i sound rise praying for this for this like

1:17:53

it two thousand and eleven the public religion

1:17:55

research institute sound that

1:17:57

thirty percent of evangelicals

1:17:59

said the character didn't count much

1:18:01

in political leaders so thirty

1:18:04

percent in twenty sixteen

1:18:06

the same poll by the same organization

1:18:09

right , trump's access

1:18:11

hollywood tape was conducted again the

1:18:13

force and jumped to seventy two percent

1:18:16

seventy two percent people say that individual

1:18:18

character did not matter that much in

1:18:20

i chose political there's obviously

1:18:22

that gives like the idea that this was just like

1:18:24

you know purely rebel a tory

1:18:27

religious interpretation you know

1:18:29

but i think that like if want understand

1:18:31

what's happened to white evangelical

1:18:34

religiosity in relation to in relation

1:18:37

you do have understand that like

1:18:39

posey deciding that trump

1:18:42

was incompatible with even

1:18:44

joke or fx they decided that

1:18:46

even juggle ethics had to be changed to accommodate

1:18:48

trump i sometimes wonder if that

1:18:50

was something of release not

1:18:52

like not having to really worry about

1:18:55

the leader your support edens hypocrisy

1:18:57

and hypocrisy believe you think there's way in

1:18:59

which the sorting we talked about

1:19:02

as you know people's political identity

1:19:05

determines more and more of even their religious

1:19:07

posture the stuff

1:19:10

that they don't care about they didn't

1:19:12

have to worry about them either right

1:19:14

like it's yell at one thing you can say

1:19:16

about catholics are anti abortion is

1:19:18

that i do think there's a certain percentage

1:19:20

of them who view it as part of seamless

1:19:23

garment right like very anti

1:19:25

death penalty their economic

1:19:27

views are very supportive of your

1:19:29

generous safety nets what for family

1:19:32

since like that in ,

1:19:34

principle anti abortion should be connected to

1:19:36

a broader array broader policies

1:19:39

that support bringing new life into the world

1:19:41

might say really

1:19:44

care about that special ones who flocked trump

1:19:46

and so you don't even have to really answer

1:19:49

the consistency question either you

1:19:51

know what i mean like it's a yeah it's

1:19:53

the the best of all worlds i

1:19:55

saw today robbie george

1:19:57

on his twitter account it out

1:20:00

the statement said pro licence

1:20:02

please read lincoln second inaugural

1:20:04

and be guided by its spirit let

1:20:06

us not exult over those of our fellow

1:20:09

citizens good people's for sincerely

1:20:11

concerned about women's welfare who sees demise

1:20:13

of row as disaster malice

1:20:16

towards none charity for all and

1:20:18

, responded to him and i said like good

1:20:21

luck robbie a non negotiable

1:20:23

factor in this victory has been your

1:20:25

movements conscious subordinating

1:20:27

of all questions of individual character charity

1:20:30

and kindness the aim of legal victory without

1:20:32

that you don't get trump without trump don't

1:20:34

get this this

1:20:36

and sites i think that like this

1:20:39

thing about how evangelicals

1:20:42

answered of like pro choice activists

1:20:44

made their deal with the devil of

1:20:46

trump is that like trump

1:20:48

is you say like and as many

1:20:50

many said if people to study the say like the

1:20:53

hypocrisy is that the hypocrisy is

1:20:55

just like being relieved from the obligation

1:20:57

pretend like there's actually something hypocritical

1:20:59

about it's but i will also say

1:21:01

that like george's appeal to

1:21:04

likes that the good natured christian

1:21:06

charity and mercy of his

1:21:09

supposed allies is just

1:21:11

totally bullshit it doesn't exist anymore

1:21:13

that's not the movement that one you this victory

1:21:15

if you enjoy this victory you want it via

1:21:18

cyrus not via some

1:21:21

kind of like pure and good and

1:21:23

loving christian impulse on the

1:21:25

part of people know you wanted by people who are

1:21:28

convinced of the necessity for will

1:21:30

to power and machiavellian

1:21:32

intervention yes to achieve

1:21:34

our political ends regardless of whether

1:21:36

it violated our kind theological

1:21:38

commitments yes you know i saw

1:21:41

me be related sentiments from

1:21:43

anti abortion people who said

1:21:46

well you know now's the time

1:21:48

like work really begins now's the time

1:21:50

to insist

1:21:52

on a more generous welfare state

1:21:54

you know maternity leave health

1:21:56

care of you know you can get on the list of things

1:21:58

that would be supported oh pregnant

1:22:01

people right and you will kind of sports

1:22:03

with they have an asus like come

1:22:06

on like you know the republican party's not

1:22:08

going to do this and you can but

1:22:10

the new and say this but also

1:22:12

the kind of like really lean on that after

1:22:15

abortions been made illegal like if anything

1:22:17

like know seamless garment catholics

1:22:20

who are not conservative on

1:22:22

every issue especially economics but

1:22:24

who are anti abortion and

1:22:27

, do remember one conversation with this person

1:22:30

where where anti abortion

1:22:32

but he's he's and

1:22:34

are pretty populist economically and

1:22:36

otherwise me he said met thing is

1:22:39

you have to make it unthinkable before you

1:22:41

make illegal and

1:22:43

what's happened on the christian right as the opposite

1:22:46

they made illegal before any the other

1:22:48

supports or social

1:22:50

policy that would contribute to someone

1:22:53

having an easier time bringing

1:22:56

new life into the world like now

1:22:58

now's the time you're going to say this it

1:23:00

just makes you look good now are you trying to

1:23:02

set of cover your ass here it's a bit

1:23:04

you systematically supported

1:23:07

a party that's committed to shredding for

1:23:09

most past few decades these

1:23:12

supports for for , families

1:23:14

and so on yeah you know same should probably

1:23:16

start pivot into the end this

1:23:18

conversation conversation it does

1:23:20

kind of strikes me that it really was the kind

1:23:22

of most sophisticated version of

1:23:24

the religious right that influence the bush

1:23:26

administration right that kind

1:23:28

that alliance of evangelicals

1:23:31

and catholics the way some my

1:23:33

father new house wanted to give

1:23:35

the more rough around the edges evangelicals

1:23:38

a better public language better that and

1:23:40

i i think you know as we think

1:23:42

about trump is his relationship to

1:23:45

some say movements or seem

1:23:47

kind of like the well manicured

1:23:50

specs fall away it's more just the brute

1:23:52

power aspect of it it's transactional

1:23:55

it adds rough around the edges you

1:23:57

know there's no equivalent to some of

1:23:59

father new house

1:24:00

whispering and trump's year i think that's

1:24:02

right man and think what's interesting about story

1:24:04

we've provided over the course he's three episodes

1:24:06

that is that in a way we

1:24:09

return to a coarsening ah

1:24:11

as the religious rights

1:24:14

politics it's no longer

1:24:16

this elite paula test you

1:24:18

know six is like notable that like for example

1:24:20

like we've we've use him as a sort bellwether for

1:24:22

this kind of thing regarding

1:24:25

the elite conservative establishment where bill

1:24:27

kristol that it was too buddy

1:24:29

crossroads now he sort of like reversed

1:24:31

a fucking on the politics of

1:24:33

rohan said it has said that nino he doesn't think they

1:24:35

should overturn the president and

1:24:37

so what that mean like i

1:24:39

think like obviously for crystal it

1:24:42

it's a very specific kind of idiosyncratic

1:24:44

personal narrative where he is no longer

1:24:46

in driver's seat and that is that upsets him

1:24:48

and so he's like allied himself with democrats

1:24:51

parties instead but it's also

1:24:53

it out it is symptomatic like now

1:24:56

this evangelical

1:24:58

populist , is seen as

1:25:01

sort of the vehicle for trump isn't

1:25:03

as opposed to the ucl for this kind is stayed

1:25:06

a conservative christian strauss

1:25:08

in castle articulation

1:25:10

of what means means be

1:25:12

anti choice and to be a religious

1:25:15

christian conservatives trump

1:25:17

is sort of like a returning to the

1:25:19

roots of this movement

1:25:22

and think that's worth taking seriously

1:25:25

and so seriously think one of

1:25:27

things that were talking about the for we close our just

1:25:29

like where the aspirations

1:25:31

of the anti choice antiabortion movement

1:25:33

and the religious right now and from

1:25:35

my perspective i think they want

1:25:38

i whole fucking hot like

1:25:40

it's clarence thomas railing against

1:25:43

contraception and against a

1:25:45

, all against marriage equality against

1:25:48

gay relationships in general

1:25:50

i think it's also like not entirely

1:25:53

unreasonable to imagine that to

1:25:55

imagine state will try to

1:25:57

instantiate robbie george's argument

1:25:59

for the personhood in law and get

1:26:02

the supreme court to authorize

1:26:04

it rains which is to say that

1:26:06

like

1:26:06

the idea that like the antiabortion

1:26:09

movement is going to rest on his

1:26:11

laurels now is completely absurd

1:26:13

like if you think that it's murder

1:26:16

you're gonna do everything you can to make

1:26:18

it impossible every blue state night as every

1:26:20

red states and fact it's dissatisfaction

1:26:23

of the antiabortion

1:26:25

with right now that the supreme

1:26:27

court did not sell the question of fetal personhood

1:26:30

right mean i read i have

1:26:32

the arcus his own response

1:26:34

to the decision today

1:26:37

and he described this decision as the

1:26:39

end of the beginning he

1:26:41

, this decision long way to from the court

1:26:43

in the dogs case can be appreciated and savored

1:26:46

as a resounding first step in

1:26:48

turtles line we may say that

1:26:50

we are only at the end of the beginning now

1:26:52

and dealing with the turbulence that abortion

1:26:54

has imported to our political life last

1:26:56

fifty years years further

1:26:58

down the downside here is that when the court

1:27:00

does not place that anchoring

1:27:02

point and it's decision meaning fetal personhood

1:27:05

the issue will be returned the states but sense

1:27:07

that the laws in the state will simply

1:27:10

depends on the opinions and quote value

1:27:12

judgments of people on when

1:27:14

that lies in the womb begins which

1:27:17

to say that like from his perspective

1:27:19

yes were at beginning of this struggle and

1:27:22

the end the struggle is instantiating fetal

1:27:24

personhood

1:27:25

the law the land and

1:27:28

i think if some of these anti

1:27:30

abortion catholics hope

1:27:32

that the priority of the anti abortion

1:27:35

movement will be welfare state

1:27:37

policy that benefit the mother they're

1:27:40

, kidding themselves and what the priority

1:27:42

is gonna be is making illegal the an abortion

1:27:44

within the borders of the united states yes

1:27:47

and i will say that i don't

1:27:49

know how to judge

1:27:51

the possibility of some

1:27:54

kind of feel personhood decision

1:27:58

that would essentially none

1:28:00

just overturn roe but you know

1:28:02

ban abortion ,

1:28:05

rate because of yeah finding because

1:28:07

at the argument would be that the fourteenth

1:28:09

amendment would provide equal protection

1:28:11

to fetuses fetuses ,

1:28:14

if fights rights to anyone else

1:28:17

here's what i would say it is

1:28:19

in their heart of hearts the deepest wish

1:28:22

of the robbie george's and

1:28:24

had the arc the seas and the the

1:28:26

kind of you know most militant

1:28:28

know abortion people

1:28:30

that that that is what they want and

1:28:33

i just don't know if that know i hesitate

1:28:35

says a bridge too far because i really don't

1:28:37

because how far the court in

1:28:39

it's far configuration will go

1:28:42

if i had to guess a ruling

1:28:44

that established beetle personhood

1:28:47

i mean alito thomas

1:28:51

there it there's three who

1:28:53

would vote for it i think and then

1:28:55

cavanaugh and roberts

1:28:58

i don't know and course it's especially you

1:29:00

, so it's it's one of those things where at because

1:29:03

i you know spent time in these circles

1:29:05

as a younger person person is

1:29:07

what they really want so the

1:29:09

question for me is partly how

1:29:12

emboldened do these justices these and

1:29:14

and you know i think when bear replaced

1:29:17

ruth bader ginsburg bader line

1:29:19

i've used but about the supreme court in

1:29:21

this situation this that in

1:29:23

this in quantity in

1:29:25

fact leads to change in quality that

1:29:28

, more emboldened to say

1:29:30

and assert things that they wouldn't

1:29:33

in a more narrowly divided court they might not

1:29:35

get know they have they numbers and

1:29:38

it's just kind a matter of how

1:29:40

far can they really push it while keeping

1:29:42

someone like four sets and robertson

1:29:45

board and i really don't

1:29:47

put much pass these

1:29:49

people i'm not saying that it

1:29:51

will succeed will just think that like if

1:29:53

we think about where is the pro

1:29:56

life the anti abortion movement

1:29:58

moving now imagine that they

1:30:01

except this arrests that they're just happy

1:30:03

was federalism yeah

1:30:06

no it's like sure just let the states decide

1:30:08

now absolutely fucking night i know with

1:30:10

the strategy will be he could be what we

1:30:12

alluded to in beginning the conversation that they

1:30:15

tracks people in red states

1:30:17

who are trying to get abortions and

1:30:19

then try to punish them and maybe that they try

1:30:21

to punish the people who providing abortions

1:30:23

the people who are guaranteed

1:30:25

them under their state ah lights

1:30:27

it may come be that there's conflicts over

1:30:29

with called choice of law scholarship

1:30:32

in jurisprudence which is like when when

1:30:34

one thing is illegal in one same legal in the other

1:30:36

how does this sort of federal legal

1:30:39

jurisprudence respond to that situation maybe

1:30:41

they create crises over that distinction

1:30:44

there are so many ways i think that

1:30:46

the lesson that we've learned from the

1:30:48

anti abortion movement

1:30:50

over the course of these episodes is that they will try

1:30:52

everything they will throw everything at the wall

1:30:54

the signal navy tay would be

1:30:56

to assume that they will be satisfied

1:30:59

with the overturning of row and imagine

1:31:01

that they don't care about women getting

1:31:03

abortions in blue states no

1:31:05

absolutely not no whatever

1:31:07

it is they will try to

1:31:09

constrict the rights of people

1:31:12

to get abortions wherever they get them

1:31:14

and however they go about it in

1:31:16

off the creative legal political otherwise

1:31:18

ways i think it's all on the table

1:31:21

yes and you know when you look back at

1:31:23

what we've described in these three

1:31:25

episodes idiot a person movements

1:31:28

you know it contains street level violence

1:31:30

rights the murdering doctor spite

1:31:33

worsens protests and

1:31:35

intimidation outside of clinics

1:31:37

various kinds to you know highbrow

1:31:40

intellectuals something again

1:31:42

at heli artists is that isn't born alive

1:31:44

protection act like like alice's

1:31:47

like see strategically engineered

1:31:49

this piece of legislation

1:31:51

precisely because it like wow you know

1:31:54

who could say i'm

1:31:56

in favor of killing the

1:31:58

live instance that survive the an abortion

1:32:00

attempt right cigarettes are there

1:32:02

like so it's from kind of like

1:32:04

pieces of legislation that are meant to pray

1:32:06

wedge issues and kind of just

1:32:09

start like rolling back various

1:32:12

that you know protections for abortion that existed

1:32:14

they just kind like planting that

1:32:16

seed to again the judicial

1:32:18

politics the federal society that

1:32:20

level of activism to it's

1:32:22

just such a wide ranging and

1:32:24

comprehensive effort

1:32:27

out turning back abortion rights

1:32:29

there's very little he didn't

1:32:31

say went try yet now

1:32:33

maybe to end on i would say more

1:32:35

hopeful know because don't have have of

1:32:38

near term hope but

1:32:40

, other thing i hope listeners

1:32:43

take away from from three

1:32:45

episodes is the role

1:32:47

of contingencies yeah and

1:32:50

literally wendy supreme court justices

1:32:52

die right this die

1:32:54

are things like that you know like there really

1:32:56

are factors beyond any

1:32:59

political agents control that

1:33:01

are involved in this cm i feel

1:33:03

little band that i think some of

1:33:06

the way we've frame these conversations

1:33:08

emphasis is obviously on the right and

1:33:10

, anti abortion dances and

1:33:12

i don't want any listener to think

1:33:15

that means we don't believe

1:33:17

the democratic party pro choice

1:33:20

activists etc have agency yeah

1:33:22

yeah i would have to pick a lens and

1:33:24

you're focusing on the right it is what this podcast

1:33:27

is about but , one the

1:33:29

pieces we read in preparation

1:33:31

for this was won by

1:33:33

sam rosenfeld and daniel slauson

1:33:36

publishing them plus one called did democrats fuck

1:33:38

it up up some politics

1:33:41

in long road dobbs and we can talk about all

1:33:43

it's but you know the really is

1:33:45

this kind of the way in which just

1:33:47

as the two parties had sorted

1:33:50

over the abortion issue and republican

1:33:52

party became you know pretty substantially

1:33:55

you know anti person

1:33:57

and that every successive

1:33:59

you know pro choice voters and

1:34:01

constituencies that was

1:34:03

all happening just as other sorts

1:34:05

of sorting geographic especially

1:34:08

meant that our constitutional system

1:34:11

through the electoral college in senate especially

1:34:14

were giving republicans giving republicans advantage

1:34:17

is structurally so

1:34:19

i think that's part of salmon

1:34:21

and danny's point you know that like

1:34:23

there's much the to be said about democratic party

1:34:25

their failures on this front but also

1:34:28

we exist in political system

1:34:30

in which a once since

1:34:32

ninety ninety two has republican

1:34:35

presidential candidate won a majority votes

1:34:37

right and so what what you do when

1:34:39

the the actor who can appoint

1:34:42

supreme court justices is capable

1:34:44

of being elected by millions fewer

1:34:46

voters then democrats

1:34:49

and so there's a way which like this party

1:34:51

sorting over the issue of abortion overlays

1:34:54

, other sorts of sorting and

1:34:56

ah distortions of our constitutional

1:34:58

system system me that democrats

1:35:01

really are at a disadvantage in

1:35:03

by yeah by and that's

1:35:05

not to let any their hats off the hook like a

1:35:08

seeking a what was seen even from them and

1:35:13

but even so you're what

1:35:15

the odds that george w bush a points

1:35:17

to justices and donald

1:35:19

title points three three

1:35:22

right those are kind of accident of

1:35:24

history and some of them within power ruth

1:35:26

bader ginsburg should have retired

1:35:28

yeah under obama presidency but that

1:35:31

was one aspect of this

1:35:33

is just lot of contingency and we said

1:35:36

all along that the formation

1:35:38

of the religious right it's coalescing

1:35:40

around the abortion issue and then around

1:35:43

republican party becoming then vehicle for

1:35:45

that's there's like intend see if

1:35:47

was at a lot of work that had been organizing

1:35:49

and so speaks and organizing any hope

1:35:52

looking forward it's something like we just don't

1:35:54

know what will happen when ,

1:35:56

what factors will be in play and

1:35:59

then the less

1:36:00

then i think one lesson from

1:36:02

looking at the anti abortion

1:36:04

movement religious right the republican

1:36:06

party is intellectuals to is

1:36:09

, one point of building

1:36:12

a movement movement that when the

1:36:14

contingent thing happens you're

1:36:16

ready to seize the moment yeah that's certainly

1:36:18

a through about the anti abortion movement and

1:36:20

republican the and groups

1:36:22

like the federal society and

1:36:24

and and to have political leaders some

1:36:26

like mitch mcconnell his willing to to say

1:36:28

when i have given barracks garland

1:36:31

hearing you know like is it out it's

1:36:33

narrative contingencies this movement

1:36:35

the anchors the party and then political leaders

1:36:37

way to play hardball when push comes when shove

1:36:40

and piloted as realm of uncertainty

1:36:42

and contingency and so we

1:36:45

don't know so will happen sigma yeah

1:36:47

endemic think about better

1:36:49

ginsburg time you know justice thomas

1:36:51

as a smoker heavy smoker what

1:36:53

you had i'd six years from now just

1:36:56

to say like stuff happens that

1:36:58

you can't predict and that's been

1:37:00

significant part of how

1:37:02

we've arrived at this place yeah

1:37:04

yeah and think it

1:37:06

doesn't absolve the forces on our

1:37:08

side it actually informed the

1:37:10

fact that actually have to build sufficient

1:37:13

power and discipline such

1:37:15

that like we will take advantage of those

1:37:17

moments will enough i think said unfortunately

1:37:20

with the history were describing here shows is

1:37:22

that like yeah there are like many

1:37:24

many undemocratic features of our political

1:37:27

system and which in most of circumstance

1:37:29

we are describing the right has