0:06

Hi everyone and

0:06

welcome to this podcast for The

0:09

New Nordic Lexicon. We are

0:09

currently at Södertörn

0:12

University in Stockholm, Sweden,

0:12

with other students and

0:16

researchers from the

0:16

universities of Aarhus,

0:19

Helsinki, Copenhagen, and

0:19

Södertörn The subject of this

0:24

podcast will be the climate and

0:24

sustainability in general. And

0:29

this episode specifically will

0:29

be about urban planning and

0:32

planning with youth in the Nordics.

0:36

The New Nordic

0:36

Lexicon is a collection of

0:39

articles, podcasts and films

0:39

based on research about the

0:44

Nordic region and the world. The

0:44

New Nordic Lexicon brings young

0:48

people together with researchers

0:48

and a dialogue on Nordic

0:52

society, history and culture.

0:58

We have two

0:58

researchers who traveled all the

1:01

way here and who will be helping

1:01

us with this episode, whom we'll

1:04

introduce later, we're going to

1:04

start first introducing

1:08

ourselves the interviewers. So

1:08

my name is Jasmine, and I am an

1:13

alumni of Södertörn here in

1:13

Stockholm. And I just finished

1:17

my master's degree last summer

1:17

in international journalism. And

1:21

I'm excited to be conducting my

1:21

very first interview for The New

1:24

Nordic Lexicon.

1:26

And here along

1:26

with Jasmine, I'm Gaëtan and I'm

1:29

originally from Switzerland. I'm

1:29

studying European and Nordic

1:33

studies as a master degree level

1:33

at the University of Helsinki.

1:37

Today, we will have Natalie with

1:37

us and Romina. So Natalie, would

1:43

you like to introduce yourself?

1:45

Sure.

1:45

Thanks. My name is Natalie

1:47

Gulsrud and I'm an associate

1:47

professor at the University of

1:50

Copenhagen with a focus on the

1:50

governance of urban green

1:54

infrastructure and nature based

1:54

solutions. So I focus on bicycle

1:59

infrastructure to urban forest

1:59

to community gardens and to

2:02

green commons, and how we make

2:02

decisions about this areas of

2:06

the city.

2:08

Hey, my name is

2:08

Romina Rodela. I'm associate

2:11

professor in environmental

2:11

governance and management, and

2:14

at Södertörn University I'm

2:14

conducting research in the

2:17

broader area of environmental

2:17

governance from within which I'm

2:22

looking at participatory

2:22

processes, at how that

2:26

accommodates for the need of the

2:26

lesser presented groups. And we

2:31

are looking particularly through

2:31

the project of Planning with

2:34

Youth into questions related to

2:34

the involvement of young people

2:38

is participatory planning

2:38

procedures.

2:42

Thank you. As part

2:42

of the consultation for The New

2:44

Nordic Lexicon, we found out

2:44

that many young people and

2:47

researchers were interested in

2:47

the climate and many mentioned

2:50

democracy as a particularly

2:50

Nordic value. In this podcast,

2:54

we're uniting these two issues

2:54

in talking to researchers who

2:58

are not only involved in a

2:58

sustainable approach to city

3:01

planning, but are also part of

3:01

the project Planning with Youth,

3:04

which they will explain a bit

3:04

more about later on. If we start

3:09

to talk a bit with Romina, you

3:09

have looked at a lot the

3:12

involvement of children and

3:12

young people in planning

3:15

processes, something which makes

3:15

the process more democratic in a

3:18

way. It may seem ? to you. But

3:18

why is it important to get the

3:23

young people and children

3:23

involved in urban planning?

3:27

The fact is that

3:27

cities are not planned for all

3:30

different social groups that

3:30

inhabit cities and some are

3:34

having more presence than others

3:34

and those who do not have

3:37

presence very much in terms of

3:37

infrastructure, youth, and

3:42

children. The way cities are

3:42

built today, it's not really

3:47

taught to work for them. In

3:47

terms of safety, in terms of

3:51

roadcrossings, presence of cars,

3:51

there are multiple incidents

3:56

that often will involve

3:56

children. Another thing that

4:00

comes forward is health. Today,

4:00

cities extremely polluted and

4:06

those who pay the highest price

4:06

are vulnerable groups and among

4:11

them children. Two days ago,

4:11

European Environmental Agency

4:16

released a report on air quality

4:16

in Europe, and it is highlighted

4:21

the children's suffered the

4:21

highest impacts in terms of

4:25

respiratory respiratory disease.

4:25

Earlier attempt for youth

4:30

inclusion actually were based in

4:30

the ideas put forward by the

4:36

United Nation Child Rights

4:36

Convention. Sweden is currently

4:41

the only country that has

4:41

transposed this convention into

4:46

planning by introducing a new

4:46

requirement for planners to

4:53

engage youth and children in

4:53

participatory planning processes

4:59

to include the voices. So I

4:59

would also mention that perhaps

5:05

this is not sufficient to

5:05

resolve the ways children being

5:10

impacted by current urban

5:10

planning, let's say a

5:16

traditional government planning,

5:16

but it's a very important step.

5:19

So would you say

5:19

that the case of Sweden is an

5:21

exception? Or?

5:23

Absolutely.

5:23

Sweden is currently the only

5:25

country that has this

5:25

requirement. It is, I mean, it

5:31

can be really considered a front

5:31

runner, because this is a policy

5:34

innovation. To have a law that

5:34

requires inclusion of the less

5:39

represented, and what

5:39

traditionally would be required

5:42

vulnerable group in

5:42

participatory processes is

5:45

unique, is new. And it bears a

5:45

lot of challenges. Because if

5:50

you think planning is a field of

5:50

expertise, cities are made by

5:54

engineers, by highly educated

5:54

people who think through very

6:02

complex schemata. So how do you

6:02

bring the voice of a child into

6:06

that debate? It's a challenge.

6:06

So the planners are currently

6:11

facing now a number of

6:11

questions: how to do that. In

6:17

Sweden, it is very much a

6:17

practice to use dialogues and

6:22

consultation with youth. And

6:22

that is part of a broader

6:27

tradition that Sweden has, in

6:27

terms of youth engagement.

6:31

Sweden has a long tradition for

6:31

bringing young people into

6:36

certain political, let's say,

6:36

decision making areas.

6:42

Sorry, could you

6:42

like give us some examples?

6:44

Yes, so youth has

6:44

been engaged in debates right

6:48

around education in the past, so

6:48

how far that went, maybe I'm not

6:55

the best to comment. But it's

6:55

known that young people have

7:00

been part of this debate, not

7:00

the least in terms of a voice to

7:03

the table that represents a

7:03

group. So that comes as part of

7:08

a tradition. And that is no

7:08

other country I can think of,

7:13

could be compared to Sweden. But

7:13

at the end of the day, there are

7:17

also challenges because as I

7:17

mentioned, planning is a place

7:20

of expertise. While the

7:20

challenge young people they are

7:24

still evolving. And we cannot

7:24

approach young children with a

7:27

map and start to put on them

7:27

very heavy, loaded information.

7:32

So you have the challenge, how

7:32

to engage young people and

7:35

children in debates about very

7:35

complex questions that are very

7:41

new to them. And that those are

7:41

the questions or the challenges

7:45

that the planners are currently

7:45

facing. And our project, we're

7:49

also Natalie's partner, is

7:49

trying exactly to deal with

7:54

this, it's to think of methods

7:54

of engagement that go beyond

7:59

those that are classically

7:59

known, that are perhaps the most

8:03

straightforward. So we have

8:03

experimented with a number of

8:06

different methods,

8:06

methodologies, we have been

8:09

engaging with young people,

8:09

people aged 15+, not very young,

8:15

because of practical reasons.

8:15

And we have seen that certain

8:19

matters work well, others a bit

8:19

less. But that is the

8:23

contribution of the project

8:23

Planning with Youth: to try to

8:28

expand and put forward

8:28

information and other repertoire

8:32

of tools on how to engage

8:32

children and young people in

8:37

participatory planning

8:37

processes, which also I would

8:40

like to mention might not always

8:40

lead to having very strong

8:46

impact on the final decision,

8:46

that's another topic.

8:52

Natalie and

8:52

Romina have written about some

8:55

of these planning processes not

8:55

being sufficiently democratic.

8:59

Could you say more about this?

9:02

Essentially when we're talking about democracy, we're talking about

9:03

how are people involved? Whose

9:05

voices are heard? What kind of

9:05

decision making processes do we

9:09

have? And what are the common

9:09

goods? Like what are the

9:11

societal contracts in our

9:11

society? So when we look at a

9:17

Nordic context, we see this kind

9:17

of external reputation of, you

9:23

know, good democracy and good

9:23

practices, good governance. If

9:28

we look, you know, side by side,

9:28

from Sweden, to Denmark, to

9:32

Norway to Finland, we see

9:32

different manifestations of

9:36

this. So I can speak to the

9:36

Danish context and say that in a

9:39

Danish context, planning is

9:39

actually quite hierarchical,

9:44

meaning that the state has very

9:44

sort of top down initiatives in

9:49

terms of how decisions are

9:49

taken, specifically around state

9:53

run lands. We have a planning

9:53

law that is very market based,

9:57

meaning that you know, sort of

9:57

what best for landowners comes

10:01

first and foremost. And at the

10:01

local level, there's 98

10:05

municipalities in Denmark,

10:05

municipalities have a very

10:08

strong role in terms of

10:08

planning. So environmental

10:12

planning and management is

10:12

deregulated to the municipal

10:16

level. And that has a lot of

10:16

consequences because it means

10:19

that we don't have regional

10:19

planning, as we have before. So

10:25

previously, in a different time

10:25

period in in Denmark, there was

10:28

regional planning, which

10:28

provided a lot of advantages.

10:31

Every municipality has its own

10:31

municipal strategy. And that

10:34

means that municipal strategy

10:34

accountants also for ways in

10:38

which environmental law in

10:38

planning law is then realized.

10:42

And this is done through an

10:42

overall municipal strategy. And

10:46

then it's broken down into local

10:46

plans, and local plans will

10:49

cover kind of a neighborhood.

10:49

And within that local plan,

10:52

you'll have agreements on what

10:52

can be built, where, how many

10:57

parking spots should be

10:57

allocated. And now more

11:00

recently, thinking about how

11:00

much green space should be

11:03

included? How do we count for

11:03

greening and diversity? These

11:07

are still quite technical

11:07

processes, and those that are

11:11

active citizens who are involved

11:11

in these kinds of decision

11:14

making processes, but you could

11:14

say they're a bit more expert

11:16

driven. And maybe, for good

11:16

reason, right? Because when

11:20

you're working with quite

11:20

technical approaches, oftentimes

11:23

it makes sense to have those who

11:23

are educated, and who are very

11:26

much involved in the process to

11:26

be leading the way and to be

11:30

facilitating that. The question

11:30

then becomes, how do you hear

11:35

voices? And how do you include

11:35

new and diverse voices in these

11:39

decision making processes. And

11:39

that, of course, is always

11:42

difficult. And I think you have

11:42

to think about it in terms of

11:45

the scale of infrastructure,

11:45

from smaller projects all the

11:48

way up to mega projects. What we

11:48

can see both through anecdotal

11:52

examples, but also research is

11:52

that when you're looking at mega

11:55

projects, can speak about the

11:55

construction of the metro in

11:58

Copenhagen, you can't include

11:58

resident perspectives very well.

12:04

These are massive projects that

12:04

needs to be implemented over a

12:09

specific period of time, with

12:09

very large budgets that have to

12:14

do with huge agreements and

12:14

partnerships across different

12:18

agencies, landholders, and are

12:18

incredibly complex. So we do not

12:24

have a tradition for really

12:24

including a lot of resident

12:27

involvement, there's very

12:27

symbolic involvement. So they're

12:30

kind of closed governance

12:30

processes. But if you go down to

12:35

sort of more local decision

12:35

making you see a great tradition

12:38

for what we call agenda 21

12:38

processes are really opening up

12:43

for residents of all different

12:43

types of backgrounds, and all

12:47

voices, like including also

12:47

people who are homeless, people

12:51

who maybe don't necessarily

12:51

like, you know, belong in

12:54

Denmark, but also in terms of

12:54

residency permits, and so forth,

12:58

kind of economic refugees, you

12:58

could say also being involved in

13:01

these processes. So really

13:01

thinking across sort of the

13:04

margins of society, how do we

13:04

include those voices? Those can

13:08

be very inspiring processes.

13:11

So from that

13:11

perspective, why is it so

13:14

important that young people are

13:14

implicated in decisions that are

13:19

related to their environment?

13:21

I think

13:21

that's a really good question.

13:23

And it has to do with what kind

13:23

of knowledge is involved in a

13:26

city planning process and in

13:26

technical environmental

13:29

departments. And what we see is

13:29

that there's a lot of technical

13:32

knowledge involved. So there's

13:32

experts, engineers, there are

13:38

experts associated with

13:38

understanding land value and

13:41

providing kind of economic

13:41

forecasts. But what the kind of

13:45

knowledge that oftentimes gets

13:45

downplayed or is not taken as

13:48

seriously as sort of ecological

13:48

knowledge, and how that links to

13:52

social practices as well. So

13:52

going back to my statement, that

13:55

this is also about political

13:55

economy, what kind of values are

13:58

thought of is the most

13:58

important, and what is thought

14:01

of as valuable. And here we see

14:01

sort of land prices, market

14:05

values, and kind of innovation

14:05

and disruptive sort of processes

14:11

for green growth has been very

14:11

much valued. And then how

14:16

ecological processes are built

14:16

into decision making processes

14:19

is more fraught. And that isn't

14:19

because we don't have that

14:22

knowledge at the municipal

14:22

level. There are so many well

14:27

versed, knowledgeable, really

14:27

well intentioned people working

14:31

at the municipality of

14:31

Copenhagen, for example, who

14:33

know everything about trees,

14:33

know everything about

14:35

biodiversity, know everything

14:35

about plants, and would like to

14:38

realize the green city, it's

14:38

very difficult to realize the

14:41

Green City and four year

14:41

decision making processes. So

14:44

this is sort of a statement

14:44

about the voice of nature, and

14:47

how that gets involved in

14:47

decision making processes. So

14:51

the idea of ecological justice.

14:58

This is a New

14:58

Nordic Lexicon podcast on why

15:01

are young people important in

15:01

city planning?

15:12

You're both

15:12

involved in a project called

15:15

Planning with Youth that you've

15:15

been already, like, discussing.

15:18

And you have tried to find

15:18

effective ways of involving

15:23

young people in decision

15:23

processes. But can you tell us a

15:28

bit about an effective example

15:28

of consulting young people that

15:32

happened maybe in Sweden or in

15:32

Denmark?

15:35

We set up

15:35

situations, workshops, over the

15:41

course of one day or a week

15:41

where we engage youth on a

15:44

method. And then we collect

15:44

information about how the method

15:49

felt on them. What we meant to

15:49

do with planning is to test how

15:54

meaningful different methods are

15:54

for young people, in order to

15:58

provide them guidance and some

15:58

research insight for planners,

16:03

for them to be able to make

16:03

decisions, what method to use.

16:07

What we come to, we tested many

16:07

methods with studios, games,

16:14

paper crafting, cardboard

16:14

scrapping, participatory maps,

16:19

from paper and pencil to digital

16:19

map. So we really tested a long

16:23

list of methods. And what we

16:23

have accumulated in terms of

16:28

insight is that it's really

16:28

context dependent. It's very

16:33

hard to generalize and say, a

16:33

widely held assumption is when

16:38

you have young teenagers, we

16:38

often heard from planners, it's

16:43

good to use digital games,

16:43

because that's what young teens

16:48

are passionate about. So you

16:48

connect to their level, and you

16:53

help them to tell you more about

16:53

the city, we have tried that.

16:57

And the outcome was to our

16:57

surprise, as well, that the

17:01

youth were not really feeling

17:01

the best position to use, let's

17:06

say Minecraft, to express their

17:06

views and ideas about their

17:10

living environment. That is one

17:10

of the quite interesting

17:17

outcomes, we as adults, often

17:17

have prayer stated opinion, so

17:24

how you would like to see or

17:24

engage with questions that might

17:30

not always be correct for the

17:30

young people. So we have tested

17:34

these methods. And we are

17:34

currently actually developing

17:38

our toolkit, where this insight

17:38

will be synthesized and made

17:44

available, free available for

17:44

planners or whatever, what are

17:50

the profiles to use?

17:52

So from that

17:52

perspective, why is it so

17:56

important that young people are

17:56

implicated in decisions that are

18:00

related to their environment?

18:02

Yes, that relates

18:02

a little bit to what have

18:05

earlier mentioned that there is

18:05

a lot of preconceptions about

18:09

what you or your children needs,

18:09

and wishes to have in their

18:14

environment. And very often

18:14

these ideas are projections

18:23

filtered through an eye of an

18:23

adult, for instance, the idea is

18:29

that young people need to hang

18:29

out, and therefore they need

18:32

more skating parks. So now that

18:32

filters the needs through his

18:39

own eyes, and you cannot go

18:39

beyond that, but the reality of

18:42

things is the youth is not a

18:42

homogeneous or static category.

18:46

Young people are very dynamic,

18:46

you know, you don't have a young

18:50

people young, for a very long

18:50

period of time, you always have

18:54

generations and they change. In

18:54

fact, if skating parks would

18:59

trendy and appealing for youth,

18:59

a strategy to get them out of

19:05

their house and you know, move a

19:05

little bit. Nowadays, they're

19:08

not so popular any longer, or

19:08

maybe other things might be

19:12

speaking to a person of that age

19:12

compared to 10 years ago. So it

19:17

is important to engage young

19:17

people. So to answer your

19:20

question, because there are

19:20

trends, there are differences,

19:25

what their needs and wishes are

19:25

over generations and the best

19:30

ones to tell you what their

19:30

living experience with places

19:35

and spaces is. What they really

19:35

need is actually the young

19:38

people and not the filter of

19:38

mature expert who thinks that

19:45

skatepark are good for kids. So

19:45

that's why we believe very much

19:50

that youth and children are

19:50

important interlocutors, when we

19:55

talk about places or spaces

19:55

where they should actually be

19:58

enjoying as well.

20:00

This example that

20:00

you gave actually, like reminded

20:02

me a lot about my childhood, and

20:02

seeing how, you know, you had

20:07

always a playground in the

20:07

school yard. That was a big

20:10

football field. And it was

20:10

mainly, you know, thought of for

20:15

boy children, and even for a

20:15

certain category of boys

20:18

children. So what about also

20:18

this? Like, could we add a

20:22

gender perspective to this to

20:22

this whole thinking as well? Is

20:27

it also a fact that these spaces

20:27

are also thought for men by men?

20:33

Maybe? Could you elaborate a bit

20:33

on this?

20:37

Yeah, you

20:37

just mentioned a very new wave

20:40

of critical urbanism in relation

20:40

to the subfield of children

20:45

geography, that is exactly

20:45

saying that most of the urban

20:49

infrastructure outdoors meant

20:49

for recreation targets a lot to

20:54

young people who are mostly

20:54

male, or who likes sporty

20:58

things. And there is a movement,

20:58

especially growing up in the UK,

21:03

or in the Anglo Saxon world,

21:03

where they try to expose the

21:07

fact that there is very little

21:07

in terms of infrastructure or

21:12

places meant for, for girls, who

21:12

perhaps or boys who might not be

21:17

sporty, it's also a lot of

21:17

stereotyping, that old boys

21:21

should be playing football. And

21:21

then after 10 years old boys

21:26

should be skating, and you know,

21:26

like general waves of what, how

21:31

you should be and what they

21:31

should be doing. So currently,

21:35

there is a debate happening,

21:35

there is a lot really being

21:39

done. And maybe I can mention

21:39

there is a lot of activism,

21:44

because I haven't mentioned but

21:44

at the bottom, or the bottom

21:48

layer of even the children, the

21:48

UN child convention, is a

21:53

massive effort from activists

21:53

and advocates for the well being

21:57

of children who pushed through

21:57

and managed to put in place all

22:02

these institutional structures.

22:02

And now we have NGOs, and

22:06

activists advocating for the

22:06

right of teenage or young girls

22:11

to be allowed a place in public

22:11

spaces. And there is an NGO,

22:16

which is really great. And I

22:16

would like to mention that

22:20

because they're doing great work

22:20

is called Make Space for Girls.

22:25

And they're doing a lot of

22:25

really hands on intervention in

22:29

the public space. They're based

22:29

in the UK, where they put out

22:34

infrastructure that caters to

22:34

the needs of girls. And

22:38

unsurprisingly, it is not the

22:38

football field. And they do that

22:42

together with girls, they engage

22:42

girls, work with them, ask them

22:47

questions, allow them space to

22:47

express, allow space to the

22:52

young people to think through

22:52

what they really need and wish

22:56

to see. So it doesn't come to

22:56

just that, you know, the expert

23:01

who has a PhD in planning, who

23:01

will decide how this place will

23:06

look like. So they put up a lot

23:06

of participatory methodologies

23:10

and bring the younger as in

23:10

conversation with planners and

23:15

practitioners to make places

23:15

also for them, for the for the

23:19

young girls.

23:20

That sounds

23:20

amazing that those projects are

23:23

actually in place and happening

23:23

right now. And people don't just

23:27

talk about it, that it should be

23:27

done, but it's actually being

23:30

done. That's really great to

23:30

hear. And speaking of rights.

23:35

Generally, when reading more

23:35

about your work, you have talked

23:39

also about intergenerational

23:39

justice. Could you also explain

23:43

it here? What is meant by that?

23:43

Exactly?

23:46

Yeah, sure. I was actually thinking, piggybacking off of your answer,

23:49

it would be interesting to bring

23:51

in the concept of

23:51

intergenerational justice, which

23:54

assumes that the voices of youth

23:54

today and those who are not even

23:58

born need to be accounted for in

23:58

decision making processes, for

24:02

example, around climate change

24:02

adaptation, the next 30 to 50

24:06

years, because that's their

24:06

future. Right? So it's an

24:12

ethical framework that is very

24:12

much based on kind of a legal

24:15

idea of what the future should

24:15

be. And what we're trying to do

24:19

is understand how it fits into a

24:19

planning perspective. And that's

24:23

very complex. Do you want to

24:23

build off of that?

24:29

So there is this

24:29

principle that it all invites

24:32

you to think about the future in

24:32

ways that you always think

24:36

about, who is coming next rather

24:36

than say, actually, this area is

24:43

the best one to put housing,

24:43

even though it's fertile because

24:47

it's the closest to the train

24:47

station and so the housing will

24:50

be most having the highest

24:50

market value. So you wait, you

24:55

know what the benefits is today,

24:55

against what actually benefit me

25:00

might be in the future, although

25:00

you don't know what will happen.

25:04

Okay, thank you

25:04

for this explanation. And just

25:08

if we go back a bit to the, to

25:08

the project of Planning with

25:11

Youth, we talked about the case

25:11

of Sweden. But is there also

25:16

similar tendencies in the

25:16

Nordics or other European

25:19

countries also know that answer

25:19

them as part of the planning,

25:23

review of the project? So could

25:23

you tell us a bit more about the

25:26

other.

25:27

So we have a

25:27

project partner, which is ?

25:30

University, and they are

25:30

basically engaging with

25:36

interviews with planners in

25:36

Holland, and Holland, that is

25:42

not very different from other

25:42

European countries when it comes

25:44

to engagement of field meaning

25:44

that it's not very central. But

25:47

what do they have as well, like

25:47

Sweden is they have a very

25:51

strong force of activists and

25:51

advocates for the rights of the

25:56

children. And while youth and

25:56

children are not, by law, or by

26:04

practice very much equally

26:04

special planning, they have the

26:08

need to include them as part of

26:08

a broader debate within the

26:12

planning field. And there is

26:12

lots of NGOs that work with

26:19

urban areas that could cater to

26:19

the needs of youth and children.

26:25

Holland has also a very strong

26:25

and vibrant placemaking

26:30

community with different

26:30

individuals who, as part of

26:35

their profession, or in pro bono

26:35

actually engage with this topic.

26:41

So that is the situation in

26:41

Holland, so might not be having

26:45

the institutional the formal

26:45

institutional structure like

26:48

Sweden, but as I mentioned

26:48

earlier, only Sweden has them.

26:52

No other countries has this law.

26:53

But that's

26:53

interesting, also, to think

26:56

about the fact that like, these

26:56

countries are very exceptional

27:01

in a way and they are maybe

27:01

willing to implicate youth in

27:05

the decision process. But is

27:05

this like a bit too much of an

27:10

exception that could not happen

27:10

elsewhere? Like what about

27:14

extending these kind of ideas elsewhere?

27:17

So it

27:17

seems to be a front runner that

27:19

has a tradition, and probably

27:19

the political sphere in Sweden,

27:24

likes being a front runner and

27:24

likes to inspire. And I have to

27:28

say, when we go around with the

27:28

project, and we talk in other

27:33

places about what Sweden is

27:33

doing, we do get a lot of

27:37

questions. So Sweden, you know,

27:37

through our work, you can see

27:42

that people are inspired, people

27:42

are challenged, because the

27:46

first, you know, I got the

27:46

answer: "Wow, you have this

27:50

Sweden?" And then the second

27:50

question: "Boy I bet that that's

27:55

not implemented in practice!",

27:55

especially if I if stopped a

27:59

planner, because they know how

27:59

hard this. So I think what

28:03

happens now, what I would see is

28:03

the spirit inspires a lot, the

28:08

practice here, but we also need

28:08

to be realistic and consider

28:12

that this is not like a copy

28:12

paste model that would work

28:17

elsewhere. It's very hard. Even

28:17

in Sweden, there are challenges,

28:21

you know, and that will be

28:21

another topic. Some

28:25

municipalities are doing well,

28:25

others are struggling, others

28:29

are not doing it. So you know,

28:29

it is. But it's a broader

28:34

debate. I think it's very good

28:34

that it's happening, because as

28:38

I mentioned, there is this

28:38

report published by the European

28:43

environmental agency that just

28:43

highlights the huge amount of

28:47

health implications for kids

28:47

that come from cities planned in

28:52

a way that they are just

28:52

forgotten. And as someone said

28:56

earlier, and remember who if you

28:56

make cities planned for kids,

29:00

you make cities good for everyone.

29:06

Many thanks to

29:06

everyone and for your time, and

29:09

we would like to thank the

29:09

research group of which

29:12

nordic.info is a part,

29:12

Reimagining Norden in an

29:16

Evolving World, particularly the

29:16

branch at Södertörn University

29:20

for supporting this podcast. We

29:20

would also like to thank the

29:24

A.P. Møller Foundation for

29:24

supporting The New Nordic

29:26

Lexicon. And thank you both

29:26

Natalie and Romina.

29:30

Thank you so much!

29:31

Thank you. Likewise.

29:34

The researchers

29:34

you've been listening to a

29:36

Romina Rodela from Södertörn

29:36

University, and Natalie Gulsrud

29:41

from Copenhagen University. The

29:41

students interviewing on this

29:45

podcast were Gaëtan Gamba from

29:45

Helsinki University and Jasmin

29:51

Adolph, an alumni from

29:51

Södertörn University. The New

29:57

Nordic Lexicon podcast series

29:57

will mainly be in English with

30:01

some episodes in Swedish, Danish

30:01

and Norwegian. Subjects range

30:06

from the invasion of Ukraine and

30:06

security in Europe to minority

30:11

languages in Finland and Sweden.

30:11

The New Nordic Lexicon is

30:16

brought to you by the team

30:16

behind nordics.info at Aarhus

30:20

University in Denmark, with

30:20

students and colleagues from

30:23

across the Nordics and beyond.