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1:18

welcome everybody back to

1:21

ellie not so confidential this is doctor

1:23

scott along with my

1:25

cohost in crime and

1:28

shoot observation of human behavior doctor

1:30

silo welcome back doctor silo

1:31

hi one hundred and two episodes

1:33

and we still are awkward as hell

1:36

were introduced each other

1:37

yeah the military

1:40

units , in any better guys inside

1:43

the the the hey

1:46

you know the care and how they don't happy with his in

1:48

july twentieth weekend twentieth kiss

1:50

yes it is it's great

1:53

in were doing the saints an early because it's

1:55

mega heights and are part of the world

1:57

so getting a little recording done in the morning

1:59

good movie give it this way it's

2:02

the coldest it's probably ever going to be moving

2:04

forward in support of yeah

2:08

, to him he has to the i

2:10

don't think so things are going really well

2:13

going really trundling

2:15

along and our weekly production

2:17

of content some of the episodes

2:19

are shorter and tighter this is one of the

2:21

one who's gonna go back to our oh gee

2:23

style it's a longer more intense one

2:26

but i think it's completely appropriate for what's going

2:28

on in the world right now pressure

2:30

and i so where to

2:33

everyone

2:33

then i thought of this episode

2:36

prior to any of

2:37

the supreme court shenanigans i'm going

2:39

i'm right there back to do you are we talked

2:42

about this is done on and on on on earth drive

2:44

list for a long time absolute

2:46

last sir first

2:48

it's pretty well for answers one story

2:50

the story that we wrap this whole thing

2:53

up with oh my guys i'm telling

2:55

you about like for years to the point where like

2:57

i don't i cannot talk about the of please don't

2:59

have a lot of again i wanted to be a surprise olivia

3:01

so

3:02

first if you haven't listened to last week's vintage

3:04

crime episode we talked about the unsolved

3:07

murder in pasadena california the think

3:09

smarter or otherwise known as the don

3:11

juan dentist murder we retraced

3:13

the dentist steps on his last night

3:15

alive and provided you with a number

3:17

of leads and theories including

3:20

a guest appearance by retired lapd

3:22

homicide detectives depot dell who

3:25

thinks there may be a link between his father

3:27

and i think smarter so it was

3:29

a cooling

3:30

and if by any chance you don't know

3:32

who his father is his father was george

3:34

hotel pool and steve strongly

3:36

believes in there's a lot of evidence pointing to

3:39

george hotels involvement in the black

3:41

dahlia murder as well as other crimes

3:43

or right let's get into today's episode

3:46

we have done killer nurses

3:48

killer athletes criminal counsellors

3:50

and cannibal corpse he oh here

3:52

we are hundred and two episodes and it

3:55

is time to talk about bad judges

3:57

it sir

3:58

he noted

3:59

they want to be a journey

4:01

you know more slowly move on and on

4:03

me after a over a decade of friendship

4:06

your springing something they are

4:07

i know i i think it's high school

4:10

they had a sellout like these tests that

4:12

say works in a we would be that at

4:14

with that kind of correlates to as far as careers

4:17

and judge did come up for me

4:19

and i was like oh interesting and then

4:21

my dad as a l

4:23

a county sheriff's deputy work and court

4:25

services for a number of years as a supervisor

4:28

and so i would go to work with him every once

4:30

in awhile and basically he was just the guy in

4:32

charge of the fall the deputy is the worked at the

4:34

court right so he wasn't standing in

4:36

a court room as a bailiff or anything but

4:38

she would allow me when he was busy

4:41

or had meetings or something to go sit in

4:43

court room so as a teenager would

4:45

go sit there and i was like the judge is

4:47

the most powerful person in around that

4:49

seems like a prequel jar yeah and

4:52

i'm really was interested in it for awhile

4:54

and then you know my little teenage brain i found

4:56

out oh you have to be an attorney first

4:58

session

4:59

when you gotta we gotta go out legal ,

5:01

legal another good

5:04

reason is and gonna have to do so now legal

5:06

school know you out about

5:08

he did we had to take as

5:10

part of my friends and psychology program we had

5:13

to take a legal research class loves

5:15

my professor adored him we're still friends on facebook

5:17

the stay could not stand that class i was

5:19

like ice

5:20

we made the right choice to not go to law school

5:22

yeah i felt the same way that like a

5:25

one of my professors that was the family

5:27

evaluate or specialist took me aside

5:30

and after i had turned in my final project

5:32

and he said you you get this

5:34

it be great for this i'm like oh i don't

5:37

know i don't want to do this at all

5:39

hours in forensics but moring

5:41

parents over kids with kids as pawns

5:43

i absolutely have no

5:46

desire to do i will say i've had

5:48

say wide range of experiences with judges

5:50

like when like have had to testify i've

5:52

worked with really good judges

5:55

who is they didn't understand something

5:57

understand something talking about would just be completely

5:59

fine the way too many more information

6:01

on that are you are you need to explain that

6:03

which is great and been because

6:05

i'm a marriage and family therapist as well as a psychologist

6:08

the chances of me being on a jury are very

6:10

low that are you don't want us on journeys because

6:13

we think in a different manner you know that wouldn't

6:15

probably delay the process and

6:17

i really wanted to because the judge

6:19

that spoke about our

6:21

civic duty was so

6:24

eloquent and such a

6:27

wise man i was like

6:29

holy shit signed me up i will i

6:31

will be on the jury for this and then

6:33

on the other side of it a former colleague

6:35

of mine who is a former psychologist who

6:37

is incarcerated now in said

6:40

california department of corrections of

6:42

corrections down on his hearing and

6:44

that judge i still to

6:46

this day and just slack jawed

6:49

at how badly that judge handled

6:51

the hearings wow and what way

6:53

allowing testimony and not

6:56

challenging testimony and not challenging

6:58

the incompetence of

7:00

out in the district attorney and the defense

7:02

attorney spectroscopic that's all

7:04

the way across the board and

7:07

, mean it's it was i was sitting with

7:09

my friends family members and just

7:11

thinking this isn't happening as his

7:13

domain among the happening and it didn't

7:16

and a person is is incarcerated

7:18

and to this day i think that he was incorrectly

7:22

and went well

7:22

the new examples of just like

7:25

kind of the ideal and what you

7:27

expand you know like use the words

7:29

why is and you know someone who

7:31

can really make you feel like

7:33

you're there for a purpose of your potential jury

7:35

member that it's important is no

7:38

are

7:38

judy and then offense

7:40

and then the flipside of someone just like letting

7:43

any kind of go in a court room

7:45

to the point where you know someone could be

7:47

locked up the doesn't deserve to be

7:48

what have you are you're not getting a fair trial

7:51

however that can seek out the rights

7:53

what i've experienced is that we have

7:55

this ongoing sort

7:58

of trope here in the you

7:59

there's about

8:01

how annoying it is to be on a

8:03

jury when is really is like

8:05

you get all the benefits of this

8:07

republic democracy so

8:10

you should be paying for it and the way you pay for

8:12

it as by your taxes and

8:14

that the others will certainly a lot of debate about

8:16

taxes from state to state but it's your

8:18

civic duty and your social responsibility

8:21

to make sure that the legal system

8:23

works and the way that it's poster were yeah

8:25

we have eyes on as just

8:27

regular people in the way to do that absolutely

8:30

actually pretty powerful as the jurors so

8:32

are right well with stats

8:35

let's list that way

8:37

then what we're in a way a lot of foundation

8:40

hear that a little bit a history for

8:42

you by

8:42

oh and or warnings trigger or l yeah

8:44

you know they go today folks we're going to

8:47

be covering themes that include suicide

8:49

child abuse and some sexual things

8:51

saw that lighter than others clearly

8:53

but now we want to give you a heads up for sir

8:55

so when we look at

8:57

law in of the specifically

9:00

were and be talking about the united states

9:02

today all different levels but we

9:04

have what we refer to as the

9:06

rule of law in this country

9:08

and it's a principal under which all persons

9:11

institutions and entities are accountable

9:13

to laws that are publicly promote

9:15

it

9:15

equally and forced independently

9:18

adjudicated inconsistent

9:20

where international human

9:23

right multiple interesting especially

9:26

a heated again like what's going on

9:28

right now so either from eighth grade

9:30

us history or civics class or

9:32

as you are one of the millions of people

9:34

seem hamilton he of remember

9:37

that alexander hamilton and james madison

9:39

and john jay were a number of essays

9:41

that we now call the federalist papers

9:44

that in basically was in

9:46

endorsement of the us constitution

9:48

at the time and specifically in

9:50

the federalist paper number seventy it

9:53

states that federal courts were

9:56

designed to be an intermediate body between

9:58

the people and their legislature and

10:00

so in order to ensure that most

10:03

people's representatives acted only

10:05

within the authority given to congress and the

10:07

constitution the constitution is

10:10

the fundamental law of the nation so

10:12

this is codified as the constitution

10:15

is the core values of people

10:18

and ahora have the responsibility

10:21

to interpret the constitution's meaning

10:23

as well as the meaning of

10:25

any laws that are by

10:28

congress officially federally again

10:30

a federal state for number seventy eight that

10:33

if any law is passed by congress

10:35

and it inflicts with the constitution

10:37

that the constitution ought to be

10:39

preferred to this

10:40

so in article

10:43

three of the constitution which were going to reference

10:45

a couple of times today it's

10:47

says that every person

10:50

accused of wrongdoing has a right to

10:52

a fair trial before a competent

10:54

guides and juri of one's peers

10:57

but we noted the courts or to

10:58

the entities are not these nebulous

11:00

that finding machines

11:03

made up of individual people judges

11:05

magistrate first different names for them across

11:07

the country and the founders knew

11:10

that judges who apply the law

11:12

freely and fairly are essential

11:15

to this the rule of law that i talked about

11:17

at the top the constitution no guarantees

11:20

or write on paper but of course

11:22

we need independent chords and the judges

11:24

who sit on the court to

11:26

protect those rights and

11:29

our federal judges are

11:31

supposed to be protected

11:33

from

11:33

what other branches as well as

11:36

shifting popular opinion

11:38

and that's why they have so much power but

11:40

also there needs to be checks and balances

11:42

there to make sure that a are

11:45

doing things for the right reasons and

11:47

upholding what we call judicial

11:49

independence so that allows them

11:51

to make decisions based

11:53

on what's right under the law without

11:55

they'd political or personal consequences

11:58

for their decisions like

11:59

make a decision because they're afraid they're going

12:02

to have fired or that they're not

12:04

going to get reelected or that their salaries

12:06

in a be reduced something like that that's why we have

12:08

judicial independence and place

12:10

more and you would hope that our

12:12

elected officials will do the same thing

12:14

that they will make him actions based on what

12:16

is the best for their constituents rather than

12:18

what's going to get me elected and unfortunately that

12:20

is one of the criticisms of our system

12:22

here in the us spread currently

12:25

is that by the moment you're elected you

12:27

start fundraising for your next election

12:29

so there's , a real disparity

12:32

in in the efforts but that's going

12:34

down that rabbit hole so looked the big question

12:36

for me and all this research and everything that's

12:38

been going on for the last several months and

12:40

particularly in regards to

12:42

our last two appointed supreme

12:45

court judges i was little what are the

12:47

actual requirements and shouldn't scotus

12:49

or regional judges at least had

12:51

tried cases before because i just always

12:54

thought that of course you're not going to

12:56

be a judge unless you ben a trial attorney

12:58

before and of course we're very lucky

13:00

because we have our ally your friend

13:02

michelle than which is the way i read always refer to

13:05

our lot of and itself because our other to law

13:07

your friends are busy raising families so

13:11

i know how i know but i

13:13

was having experts at our disposal own

13:15

ass oh yeah so look what

13:18

we did was his we reached out

13:20

to michelle and just said you know can you get

13:22

us some perspective on this from

13:24

being an attorney and see of

13:27

course gave us back some real

13:29

food for thought and to be honest folks as you're

13:31

listening to this i'm going to be repeating direct

13:33

quotes from michelle and we're going to be having

13:35

deeper conversations amongst ourselves about

13:37

this or think of as

13:40

one of the reasons i don't become an attorney because i don't

13:42

you know i work with behavior and

13:45

assessing behavior and prognosticating

13:47

about behavior and helping guide

13:49

people towards health and guiding people

13:51

away from areas of harm that is a very

13:53

different paradigm and dynamic from

13:56

law and so i have to sit with my

13:58

own discomfort about some of the us

13:59

we got back though is why the free man

14:02

like divest so generally speaking

14:04

not every attorney has to be a trial attorney

14:06

surprising to me and then she says looking at prostitution

14:09

is that you'll find that a lot more prosecutors and

14:11

defense attorneys will be or had the opportunity

14:14

to do trials just given the nature

14:16

of the criminal justice system even then

14:18

it doesn't mean that every defense attorney

14:21

or prosecutor will be a trial

14:23

attorney for example their attorneys on both

14:25

sides the criminal system that strictly do a toilet

14:28

work and appellate attorneys really study

14:30

the law and their job is to respond

14:32

to the defense argued

14:34

to the appellate judges bad the prosecution

14:37

lawfully convicted at the center without

14:39

violating state law or the constitution

14:42

the i i can't think of this is like okay

14:44

not every psychologists a going

14:46

to treat patients know you have psychologist

14:48

doing research and such as

14:51

purely academic things like that you know it's

14:53

we have in our mind like what a psychologist or

14:55

what the tourney is that

14:56

he doing that work on

14:58

that stage jeff from from back from

15:00

are limited perspective of right so

15:02

that's completely on brand of

15:04

so michelle goes on to say that a pillow the

15:06

tories will go into a court room but they're usually

15:09

go into the state appellate division for the

15:11

court of appeals and then that's

15:13

a very different arena down

15:15

a trial court but those are attorneys

15:17

that really do know the law and she

15:19

was emphasizing that these the ones that

15:22

are that combination of experts

15:24

academic understanding of what the law

15:26

is so you can have a pellet attorneys

15:28

for either the prosecution or the defense side

15:30

to have never done a trial but have an incredible

15:33

knowledge and grasp of law and they

15:35

can eventually become judges so she

15:37

says over simplified version just

15:39

have judges that are elected or appointed to the bench

15:41

from your county court all the way up to the supreme court

15:44

that have never tried a case or done a

15:46

trial am having a strong reaction

15:48

to that that like out yeah i guess is maybe it's

15:50

built on my own expectations that someone

15:52

holding back i have a position is going to

15:54

have done what i expect but then again

15:57

i have a limited perspective right yeah

15:59

i think this is

15:59

really challenging the as well

16:02

but i think it it makes a

16:04

lot of sense i want someone that bans you hit

16:06

expert in law and knows the matters

16:08

inside and out i really guess

16:10

i don't care so much if they've offended

16:12

, prosecuted are you know sort of then

16:15

not in that role as an attorney

16:17

as long as they know what the fuck the tuck rule

16:20

items that are me you know continuing to be

16:22

educated so what is look

16:24

that is their prior decisions

16:27

and what does for our decisions have been what is the record

16:30

in terms of cases they've heard what

16:32

are those decisions what were those

16:34

decisions that they came into with

16:36

lower courts with when they first started up

16:38

until the point that they were appointed

16:40

to were position like the supreme court

16:42

said this court said give you a better idea of the

16:44

type of person for the type of judge

16:47

that you're dealing with for example if you have a lower

16:49

court judge who's making decisions on trials

16:51

that keep getting overturned das

16:53

an issue that is a huge red flag and just

16:55

another thing to keep in mind that judges have

16:57

very high regard in legal community

17:00

and the community at large pot judges are

17:02

also human beings which means they are fallible

17:04

or may not be the best person for the

17:06

jobs judges have to uphold the same

17:09

ethical standards but all the rest

17:11

of us attorneys have to do as well

17:13

well that's the reason we picked the sort of

17:15

the people are the professions that we talk about we

17:17

do these episodes because we're always talking

17:19

about people who are either high profile are high

17:21

regard nurses counselors

17:24

you know things of that nature because we

17:26

put him on the pedestal for all

17:28

these reasons of course they they hold very

17:31

important responsibilities they

17:33

make or break people's lives

17:35

either you don't medically by

17:37

saving people's lives are taking the lead the

17:39

way or people's rights so

17:42

i think this little snippet

17:44

from me

17:45

no just encapsulates

17:47

the why we even talk about these socks and are episodes

17:49

right right so in the last

17:51

few points as she provides us she says

17:54

that it is not the supreme court's job to

17:56

make legislation it's the supreme court's

17:58

job to interpret the law there

18:00

may my lower court decisions at stem

18:02

from them and then decide and determine

18:05

if those decisions or constitutional for

18:07

the effect of that is that case law is

18:09

made that has to be followed by every

18:11

state in the united states but every state has the

18:13

ability to go beyond the bar that the supreme

18:16

court sats but can never go below

18:18

it so think of right to counsel

18:21

as an example and then she goes on to say with the

18:23

overturning roe versus wade the

18:25

courts job was to interpret to

18:27

determine if what was put before them

18:29

was costs and there are times

18:31

like in this case where africa second

18:33

the decision challenges our collective

18:35

morality and threatens or obscures

18:37

to threaten our rights and freedoms

18:40

she , on to say i can't tell you exactly

18:42

what the justices were thinking because i haven't

18:44

read the entire decision yet so now doctor

18:47

scott nectar shiloh commentary on that i

18:49

really respect that i really respect

18:51

that she stating i can't tell you what

18:53

the justices were thinking because i haven't read the entire

18:55

decision yet so what since telling us they are as

18:57

she may very well have a chance or opportunity

19:00

to read it and go yeah this is

19:02

clearly biased are influenced by

19:05

their backgrounds from their federalist

19:07

society or something society something different

19:10

space and final thoughts just

19:12

because thoughts just overturned or law is

19:14

found to be unconstitutional doesn't necessarily

19:16

mean that the judges making that decision

19:19

or also happy with the outcome their can

19:21

exist a situation where the justices are purely

19:23

doing their job and had overturned

19:25

the decision because it was illegally correct to do

19:27

so but then they could be just as upset

19:30

about that decision as all a boss

19:32

isn't so i i is years and years

19:34

where i have to sit in the distress

19:36

tolerance because my view

19:38

is that that did not happen in

19:41

the in row vs way and the

19:43

reason i say that is based on what i'm

19:45

seeing and news and media which is

19:47

when they all four were affirmed

19:50

they clearly stated that it was

19:52

set law so here i am i'm sitting

19:54

on sitting in some real discomfort

19:56

and i'm being educated on the process what are

19:58

you saying how do you feel about this

19:59

well i think when you to said we will

20:02

come that could out when we talk about how

20:04

judges and lose their seats

20:06

bites gosh i felt

20:09

sometimes i think it has such a pollyanna his

20:11

view in that

20:12

i think the supreme court either smart

20:15

smart people like they really

20:17

really know the law inside and out or

20:20

at least i want to feel that way

20:22

right that they are perhaps

20:24

interpreting the last so wow

20:26

that's they are making this

20:29

determination despite the fact

20:31

that you know all the implications of something

20:33

like roe versus wade has or how i feel

20:35

personally about it i want to believe that

20:38

by it you

20:40

know you start looking at people as people

20:42

and people and go back and forth

20:44

and look at previous statements they made and how

20:46

does that sit with all of this

20:49

and it's tough it can't be all or nothing you

20:51

know i know any one of us into service you

20:53

have like oh it's a supreme court so at this

20:55

as those are it's the best for it's correct

20:58

or that stuff you black and white like

21:00

there's gotta be other my new show and

21:02

between there so i but

21:04

she's a solicitor experts like our friend michelle

21:06

to give some context around this are

21:09

more loyal than yeah yeah and

21:11

then just stay

21:12

there

21:15

are very dry or lawyer for yourself but

21:17

i know it's very very complicated in the very emotional

21:19

selling can tie in i'm i'm only now

21:22

i'm very emotional about this big but

21:24

i'm very concrete that i believe

21:26

not only women by think everyone

21:28

should have bodily autonomy like that

21:31

is ultimately to me the ultimate

21:33

freedom and this is supposed to be a country

21:35

that respect that sounds have our

21:37

emotions about it but you drill down

21:39

and to who makes the laws and a different

21:41

sites and lawmakers

21:44

in what you are reading that are

21:47

for your friend michelle gave

21:49

as i think a lotta times people think

21:51

that judges are sort of making laws and

21:54

their nights but i just want to talk

21:56

about where those come from really quickly so

21:58

if are looking nationally

21:59

literally as we call it here are founders

22:02

makes or changes are laws and congress is

22:04

both the house of representatives and the senate

22:06

together or as we also target the

22:08

legislative branch or government and then

22:10

supreme court judges or

22:13

supreme for the united states or when you play

22:15

the president's and they are confirmed by

22:18

the finance or that so they even get there in the first

22:20

place there are no

22:21

justices or today serve

22:23

for life or until they want to retire

22:26

and they cannot have their salaries

22:28

reduced so again that judicial independence

22:30

were talking about his in place for

22:32

them and again referencing article

22:34

three of the com

22:35

fusion it tells us that judges

22:37

shall hold their offices during

22:40

good behavior so

22:42

interesting

22:43

yes judges

22:45

have life's terms because once appointed

22:47

they keep their jobs until they choose to

22:49

quit as long as they have this quote

22:51

unquote that behavior and to

22:54

ensure a good behavior

22:56

as behavior said before there are some checks

22:58

and balances on judicial power built

23:01

under the constitution and that check

23:03

for supreme court justices his impeachment

23:06

which we will talk about more

23:08

thoroughly when we get to the bad behavior

23:10

of judges six other

23:12

types of federal judges in our country aside

23:15

from the supreme court the united states

23:17

they are serving

23:19

and one of the thirteen us court

23:21

of appeals a also serve

23:23

as one of the ninety four

23:25

us district court and they

23:27

also sir the judges in the courts

23:29

as international trade there

23:32

are also other federal judges who

23:34

serve under a different article in the constitution

23:36

article one and those are judges

23:39

who supreme court's like the united states court

23:41

of appeals for the armed forces united states

23:43

court of appeals for veterans claims united

23:45

states tax courts federal play

23:47

cork united states bankruptcy court

23:50

the lot of different including the us

23:52

territorial courts in the northern mariana

23:54

islands guam and the virgin islands

23:57

so complicated here but

23:59

that's just for a federally where you will

24:01

see judges federal judges

24:03

are also nominated by the president's in

24:06

so their nominee basically sells out a

24:08

questionnaire that gets reviewed by the

24:10

senate judiciary committee and then

24:12

that committee ends up holding a hearing with

24:14

the nominee questioning them about

24:16

saying is like their to the sole philosophies

24:19

perhaps or past rule

24:21

in opinions is to get to know

24:23

them and how they conduct their job better

24:25

and then after the hearing the senate judiciary

24:28

committee will vote to approve or

24:30

return the nominee and is the

24:32

norm

24:33

he is approved than

24:35

that gets voted on by the full senate

24:37

and they are then you can be

24:39

appointed so as a federal judge so

24:41

that we have

24:42

the robot and we have seems like a lot

24:44

of different types of judges when we take the states

24:47

and counties and to consider

24:48

and there's so many different types of law

24:51

and courts that hear the types of

24:53

cases that when you get down to the local level

24:55

we can really only covers of the basic seat or

24:57

each state has supreme court and

24:59

a state court of appeals i think texas

25:01

and oklahoma and the only to stay to have separate

25:04

supreme court's one for criminal or

25:06

civil and the governor appoints

25:08

those supreme court judges if we use

25:10

california's example we have two types of

25:12

quartz the trial courts or what

25:15

we also call superior ports here in california

25:17

and be appellate courts which refer

25:19

to prior the trial court handle

25:21

all the civil cases all criminal cases

25:23

small claims cases and the appeals

25:26

of infractions like traffic court or

25:28

appeals of civil cases that involve twenty

25:30

five thousand dollars or last superior

25:33

court judge has served six year terms and are elected

25:35

by county voters on a non partisan ballot

25:37

during a general election during even numbered

25:39

years vacancies occurring during those

25:41

terms to to retirements deaths or other departures

25:44

are sailed through appointment by the governor

25:46

i think this is a fascinating process to and i really

25:48

like it because most of the my

25:51

experiences here in california with judges have been

25:53

generally pretty positive and i

25:55

don't know what their political affiliation as which

25:57

is pretty great yeah right url like me

26:00

we want them to be upholding the law

26:02

nights biased by their

26:04

political beliefs so that's a really

26:07

cool about our election system here and

26:09

a superior court judge must have

26:11

been an attorney admitted to practice law

26:13

in california or served as

26:15

a judge in california for at least ten years

26:17

immediately preceding election or

26:19

appointment so i think what we're talking

26:21

about years that california has a pretty

26:23

high standard i like some other states

26:26

and that's another controversy that kind of

26:28

gossipy and i'm not going to get into at about

26:30

ah but most people out there you know and i'm talking

26:32

about

26:32

oh yes definitely

26:34

and even like that's a high bar

26:37

for any eight like federally and

26:39

we're going

26:39

in a should be very important a

26:41

second that didn't have that much

26:43

experience so

26:44

i think that's great did

26:47

yea california the job again when

26:49

he talked about judges from a psychological

26:50

the i

26:52

let's dig in a little bit now that

26:54

you've got your ah civics lesson down so

26:57

just first off i went to have a

26:59

little bit of a conversation here about

27:01

what's that such as presiding over and how

27:03

that could influence them as a person or an empathetic

27:06

point here and say like what

27:09

what's going on in a court room and how

27:11

does that relate to how we think judges

27:14

should apps and go about

27:16

their duties and we were talking

27:18

a court room as a place of high emotion

27:21

from greece loss

27:23

trauma anger you're hearing

27:25

heart breaking stories you're seeing

27:27

her respect evidence especially if you're

27:30

a criminal judge of course

27:33

disposer to trauma i mean we

27:35

talk about vicarious ronald with a lot of

27:37

criminal justice workers i remember

27:39

specifically and we might have talked about this

27:41

in our internet sexual offense

27:43

series that we did but when

27:45

we talked about people involved

27:48

in the criminal justice system when

27:50

there is a sexual crime including

27:52

judges like all the different ways that impacts

27:54

you vicariously and i remember

27:56

there was a study that

27:59

looked at how

27:59

judges morgan packet specifically and

28:02

it was very similar to a psychologist

28:04

in the attorneys in the detectives you know where

28:06

was impacting their personal lives is impacting

28:09

their ability to emotionally

28:11

regulates all that stuff so

28:13

that that's always and in the back of my head as

28:15

sir just judges being

28:17

another cog

28:20

in as in as machine

28:22

of criminal justice that gets impacted

28:24

by these things that we

28:25

year and see over and over

28:27

then so i just think it's really

28:29

interesting to look at all that they have

28:31

to sort of teeth on like a lot of

28:33

us and still keep a cool

28:35

head in and the do their job

28:38

in the courtroom but if we

28:40

backup for seconds to the stressful

28:42

journey that it takes to become a child's

28:44

there was a paper put out by the us department of

28:46

justice in the nineteen eighties that

28:48

i found that acknowledge how professionals

28:51

and they specifically stated for instance

28:53

like judges and doctors suffer

28:55

from psychological disability because

28:58

of to meet are things going on for them

29:00

the first is that they typically initiate

29:02

the pursuit of their professional careers with a high

29:04

degree of achievement and motivation and

29:07

early adult lives are marked

29:09

by the presence of the next

29:11

ended apprenticeship period

29:13

during which their skills incubate the for

29:15

their put to use and become fully

29:17

accredited so to me this is like any

29:19

journey and sort of no higher edges

29:21

shane doctoral level of

29:23

first we have here with medical doctor

29:26

is not a sculling they go through but also

29:28

in that camp have attorneys and psychologists

29:30

and other mental health professionals

29:32

so this really make sense that by

29:34

the time professionals to go

29:36

through years of achieving and getting through

29:39

there's always like and next to buy next to

29:41

have their professional careers there's already a ton

29:43

of stress and possible burn

29:45

out that could lead to things like

29:47

distress and mood disorders and substance

29:50

abuse disorders so i know you

29:52

and i can't say that it was a totally easy

29:54

journey just grad school internships

29:56

dissertation post doctoral work

29:58

you know all of that and

29:59

the can burn out by the time

30:02

you're like okay you're finally a cyclist

30:04

i'd like to pigs

30:06

thriller sites that were no occurred

30:09

when wonderful ever disappear backside just beyond

30:12

doubt during my last year of in turn to have

30:14

serious

30:15

but when i like to this this paper

30:17

advocated from early and

30:19

appropriate intervention which yeah

30:21

i wish you know every professional

30:24

who is stressed would have early and

30:26

appropriate intervention by mean i just it

30:28

gets easier said than done also and and have been

30:30

careers with high achievers were

30:33

stigma to asking for help

30:35

or feeling like you're showing any

30:37

sign of weakness is still really present

30:40

so i would hope that

30:42

you know those resources are available to

30:44

everyone especially people in these

30:46

areas because we know the numbers with

30:49

in of students and medical school and

30:51

how the high rates of suicide

30:53

are and mrs to know all of these hard

30:55

charger is in high achievers you know if there's

30:57

a flip side to that

30:58

barriers and i think that there's also there's

31:00

a flip side to it but there's also a parallel

31:02

process that exists and that is

31:05

that to borrow from spiderman

31:07

that it was stolen from an earlier comic

31:09

is with great power comes great responsibility

31:12

and you know when you are in

31:14

that crucible you decide

31:16

whether unconsciously are unconsciously whether or

31:18

not this power this going

31:20

to be wielded for

31:23

the greater good or for your own personal

31:25

satisfaction and i don't think that that's a conscious

31:27

decision i think that it being an unconscious decision

31:29

is how we get behavioral drift in a lot

31:32

of careers that have

31:34

power whether it is people

31:37

in our career as clinicians we have we have

31:39

clinicians that come

31:41

into doing private practice because

31:43

they want to feel superior we've done studies

31:46

and us their people that go into teaching

31:48

elementary school because they won't

31:50

be able to help or over kids

31:53

do it spans a lotta different career

31:55

so i'm not sure always whether

31:57

there's a conscious awareness about by i

31:59

love the description that i found of what

32:02

the job itself is and i'm going to quote

32:04

from our resources to daily work of judging

32:06

for it's part is broad and buried judges

32:08

interpret the law and what it requires

32:11

exercise discretion credit versions

32:13

of reality and accord defense to other

32:15

institutional actors these aspects of judging

32:17

are widely studied however

32:19

such as also interact with the public lawyers

32:22

litigants years witnesses clerk

32:24

court staff and one another they

32:26

are colleagues employees employers subordinates

32:29

and supervisors summer court managers

32:31

civic role models and public intellectuals

32:33

temperament is relevant to the full

32:35

sweep of what judges do including

32:37

the under study parts like

32:39

how they handle the jobs inherent challenges

32:42

and how they treat people along the way i

32:44

love this game i'd love this

32:46

writer we're gonna talk about who wrote this and just a second

32:49

and and gives more from his study

32:51

i think it's really important to look about because

32:54

maybe other people like myself

32:56

fall into this a limited perspective

32:59

that they're less than human

33:01

or more than human and they're

33:03

going to do the right thing when it's actually

33:05

like we said before it's way more know

33:09

what psychological traits or is traits

33:11

in general do we expect our judges

33:13

to have good question

33:16

a side i mean eat or

33:18

impermanent but i think what comes

33:20

to mind for me is integrity and

33:22

been above everything else and

33:25

with integrity a and maybe

33:27

as just because you never been we didn't

33:29

episode an active bystander chef and i've kind

33:31

of been researching and setting that for work

33:33

purposes lately but with that with

33:35

integrity isolate comes a courageous

33:38

ness the courage i put that in there to

33:40

be able to do what's right

33:42

ends have the sort of legal

33:44

courage or most that you

33:47

can stand alone and see

33:49

all the parts and still make

33:51

a choice that is going to

33:53

perhaps make or break somebody that's in that

33:55

courtroom

33:56

the a year or you know just a tesla

33:59

down the road

33:59

the like that

34:01

interpol to what we're talking about loved i

34:04

did , come up with that so i loved loved

34:07

because that's okay if know

34:09

if mean i was just kind of thinking all about temperament

34:11

but you just said something you just

34:14

because what use his temperament

34:17

if there's no integrity know

34:19

what now yeah what man or does he like hold net

34:21

together in a l knight other and be excel

34:23

in everybody's best friend being the ultimate

34:25

quote unquote professional but if you have no integrity

34:28

than just another psychopaths are

34:31

, think he had only i thought is

34:35

interesting that this field this only recently

34:37

begun to study the psychological dimensions and

34:39

aspects of the job being a

34:41

judge and the findings really were pretty

34:44

surprising to me as up until now research

34:46

in this area has been experimental

34:48

and nature with the understanding that the individual

34:50

who's being considered for this position and who

34:52

is holding the position is that

34:54

they're attributes as that human being or

34:57

more significant relevant than the judges

34:59

attributes as a lawyer or

35:01

attributes judge me it makes sense but maybe

35:03

it was distracted by what i was assumed

35:05

the education experience level education person being

35:07

considered i mean that the way this is being

35:09

broken down is very important for me

35:11

to look at him and help tolerate that

35:14

desperate distress when i think completely

35:16

unfair decisions are being education

35:19

, and still huge in my mind

35:21

yeah yeah oh yeah minimum

35:23

or a nick fan here yeah fan here

35:26

so when we talk about what is the best

35:28

to make up of those pursuing are

35:30

holding these positions going back

35:32

to that quality temperament is really

35:35

extremely important

35:36

well meaning

35:37

what is regular

35:40

human come from it before we get to judges

35:42

oh okay as

35:44

psychologist

35:46

we understand that temperament

35:49

is a relatively stable trade

35:51

that levels individual differences in

35:53

emotional habits that underlies

35:56

the way in which different people

35:58

react to and cope with and

36:00

learning intuitions number you permit

36:02

is sort of this gyroscope

36:05

of balance within a

36:07

personality characteristics that allows

36:09

people to be predictable and understandable

36:12

with them that kind of framework of integrity

36:14

as if the way i look at

36:16

yeah it's

36:19

relatively stable in stable person like you know

36:21

their temperaments blink we each know

36:23

our spouses and with their comments are gonna be like

36:26

maybe in different situations or environment

36:28

right but

36:29

over and over again in the same situation

36:31

environment we pretty much say like

36:34

character

36:37

so when like the opposite of be like well

36:39

that's that's really i mean are different than be acting

36:41

that way you know how long do we say that

36:44

right well other carry marrone

36:47

who is the chair in

36:49

law and professor of medicine

36:52

health and society it's and about university

36:54

he works intimately was you to so

36:56

groups united states and around the

36:58

world and a lot of his work

37:00

supports judges in recognizing

37:03

and responding to the human aspects of

37:05

their work but he wrote a really great piece

37:07

about the topic of judicial temperament

37:10

and so we thought it was really helpful

37:12

in understanding the general expectations

37:14

that we have set us as citizens have

37:16

of are appointed officials he sees

37:19

early on that quote elusive as

37:21

it is important judicial temperament

37:23

is notoriously hard

37:24

the define luau interesting

37:26

when i have that you're trying to define it and now

37:29

the sex

37:29

like know if you guys chance or

37:32

you say oh he's acknowledging that it's really difficult

37:35

like so for so we're talking about something that

37:37

is really difficult and that goes on

37:39

to another important aspect that will pour

37:41

in pour in second if he goes on to say judicial

37:43

temperament boss should be understood

37:45

to refer to a deep seated relatively

37:48

stable set of personal traits separable

37:51

from intellect training and ideology

37:53

that in dialectics with

37:55

specific traditional environments and

37:58

the predictable demands of judging right

38:00

behaviors that affect how justice

38:02

is delivered and proceed so i mean we've

38:04

we probably have mentioned d b t multiple

38:06

times here dialectical behavior therapy

38:09

which is a concept and training

38:11

and treatment protocol developed by marsha linehan

38:14

for people with personality disorders

38:16

that dialectical thinking as a really important

38:18

concept that all of us can benefit from

38:20

because dialectical thinking is

38:22

the ability to see things from multiple

38:25

perspectives so a fundamental

38:27

groundwork understanding of dialectical

38:30

thinking is that everything is

38:32

composed of opposites and contradictions

38:35

and then to understand things comprehensively

38:38

we have to understand their opposite so

38:40

it's basically the absolute

38:42

opposite of concrete thinking

38:45

right

38:46

yeah we want critical thinking we don't

38:48

buy can went thinking it's

38:49

what a judge to be able to sit know court room and

38:51

say both this and this

38:53

or existing at the same time ya se can

38:55

both be true and it doesn't mean one has

38:58

to block out the other

38:58

and i can sort of hold all that and my

39:00

mind and consider all of that

39:03

when making decisions on law so

39:05

yeah really like you were saying earlier you are sitting

39:08

in your disk tolerance of

39:10

this information that's exactly what

39:12

we want to do would

39:15

be able to consider that the assumption is that

39:17

judges will has courtesy

39:20

patients and compassion combined

39:22

with things like intellect integrity

39:25

and adequate legal training

39:27

based on what we as a population

39:29

expect as necessary to be

39:32

an interpreter of the law and

39:35

working towards our interest but clearly

39:37

it doesn't always go this way and will

39:39

have some examples of that but also

39:41

judges are expected to have basic psychological

39:44

melody with i'm here it's strengths

39:46

and weaknesses their core trade should

39:48

focus on to intercall factors

39:51

etti patterns of emotional experience

39:53

and the ability to appropriately

39:55

regulates emotionality which i

39:58

think that one

39:59

the huge

39:59

well and like you said not just on the outside

40:02

but on the inside you like really regulate

40:04

yeah i mean i i like the

40:06

way this writer really drills down on that

40:08

i think that that's such an important concept

40:11

i mean it certainly is is integral to

40:13

the work that we do you know providing

40:15

services or interpreting the behaviors

40:17

of others what this paper goes on to say

40:19

that the best profiles for judges will

40:21

reflect at least modern if not

40:23

shy positive emotionality and

40:26

moderate to high levels of self regulatory

40:28

capacity is transport judges

40:31

and meeting the positions responsibility with

40:33

resilience and expectation

40:35

to maintain consistent displays

40:38

of what you were talking about earlier qualities

40:40

of patients compassion respect level

40:43

headedness and of course openness

40:45

much as said be like the baseline

40:47

i would think the worst profiles

40:49

and will have high levels of negative

40:51

emotionality and low levels

40:53

of the capacity for self regulate so

40:56

a combination of those qualities would lead judges

40:58

to cope very poorly over time

41:01

with displays of things like and

41:03

patience disrespect disdain

41:05

volatility and high levels

41:07

and defensive best so while

41:10

there's a lot of flexibility in a spot the

41:12

baseline the author hope that they're

41:15

going to be core elements of trait positivity

41:17

moderate self regulation and

41:20

control or very high regulation

41:23

of the extreme end of that individuals

41:25

negative emotionality i loved

41:27

us

41:28

so basically i want my judge

41:30

flag in between sessions

41:33

and on breaks back in his chambers meditating

41:35

to build his resilience of but

41:37

on him on the bottle of

41:40

as a coping mechanism before he gets back on

41:43

the stand there the couple of other things original minimum

41:45

our oh

41:46

okay so foreshadowing there some

41:48

other and unnecessary coping skills

41:50

going on in the courtroom perhaps so

41:53

the other also talks

41:55

the radio about the trait of kindness

41:57

being inter

41:58

i'm sure the makeup other the child

41:59

it's is a little bit surprising

42:02

just like this nice fluffy term of

42:04

kindness but the way it was framed was really

42:06

well stated in his definition

42:08

of kindness he asserts that treat

42:11

kindness is not about individual

42:13

sporadic and specific acts

42:16

but an overall profound

42:19

quote constellation a

42:21

positive attitudes feelings and behaviors

42:23

towards others i can please someone else use your

42:26

word constellation sky

42:28

my goodness i was so happy that five

42:30

thousand nine a chance olmert this is that

42:32

included things like compassion empathy

42:36

prosocial behavior generosity

42:38

and ultra

42:39

them essentially one who

42:41

approaches life with a love for

42:43

humanity which is

42:45

a very nice thing to think about this

42:47

your judges up there on the bench you want them to above

42:50

all

42:51

how about consideration for humanity so

42:53

keeping in mind that judges

42:56

are expected to have all

42:58

wonderful traits

43:00

then during stressful conditions

43:03

there are some problematic traits yeah

43:05

exactly so on the other end of

43:07

the spectrum of problematic traits

43:09

that a judge could have or basically anybody

43:11

can have those would include dispositional

43:14

anger or a consistent ongoing

43:16

tendency to interpret hostile

43:18

intent and the actions of others so

43:20

somebody that could be easily frustrated

43:23

by a variety of general life challenges

43:25

and maybe have an experience or a history

43:27

of mood changes and really

43:29

problematic is someone that ruminates

43:32

core focuses on their own experience

43:34

of anger and bear

43:37

perceived grievances the

43:40

i thought about grievances and the last

43:42

yeah it's very yeah

43:44

in our last one wow about shooters that's

43:46

a big the yeah so individuals who are

43:49

temperamentally hostile and argumentative

43:51

will tend to be vigilant even

43:53

to the extent of hyper vigilant for the perception

43:56

of their provocation from others and

43:58

they tend to initiate in sustain arguments

44:01

and respond to what they've instigated

44:04

in anger so we're just basically saying

44:06

that the worst qualities that you could probably have

44:08

as to be somebody who has proceed

44:10

grievances the anger management

44:12

issues and then in stick a tory

44:15

and persecutory beliefs

44:18

and actions

44:19

yeah i mean that the bordering

44:21

on the know having your own ideology

44:24

and mind made up about

44:25

i mean it just sort of like the lens through your viewing

44:27

the world literally and each case

44:29

the judge has has to really stand on

44:32

its own so new one curiosity

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it up bob i

46:06

i wanted to quickly mention the a looked

46:08

at really old city as from the eighties

46:10

by it was conducted to

46:12

look at personality traits between male

46:14

and female judges and i really felt

46:16

differences so i love that

46:18

yeah

46:18

not gonna go into the a time but they were just

46:20

kind of looking at it from this sort of bio

46:23

social perspectives and

46:25

in find huge difference as

46:27

though

46:28

the and for an interesting time like the eighties

46:30

and their perspective was looking at it from like

46:32

more women and

46:33

the workforce and all of those

46:35

in a way that the toilet progressive

46:37

for that time which which

46:39

should have been so kind of jumping around now

46:41

to the idea of what happens when somebody goes

46:43

rogue or when or when judge proceed

46:46

to not being able to do their job and

46:48

had had we get rid of them will you teach

46:50

them which i've never really i mean impeachment

46:53

is like this term it's thrown around all the time

46:55

about the out officials and elected

46:57

officials and the president's francs or

46:59

what does it mean and he will get

47:01

into that moment sometimes seems

47:04

like that termed as doesn't have any teeth

47:07

later on but they didn't they didn't do anything

47:09

they're still in the position sound like this of

47:11

course is all stemming from talk

47:13

right now due to the overturning a bro

47:15

vs way because to supreme

47:18

court justices in their confirmation hearings were asked

47:20

to give their view on the law protecting

47:22

abortion rights and stated that they felt

47:24

the issue had been settled is legal precedent

47:26

so now some people were calling for impeachment

47:29

because they lied under oath and these hearings

47:31

and respects the saying is like he lied right

47:34

he were asked directly about this now you're lying

47:36

because you're finding on to

47:38

this movement and a was under

47:40

oath so on what's

47:42

sad about so according to article three

47:45

that you talk about the top the judges

47:47

boat of the supreme and and fury chords

47:49

shall hold their offices during good

47:51

behavior

47:52

that term again like vague

47:54

as fuck either it is

47:55

how also

47:58

yahoo gets to say what good behavior

47:59

the study only has volatile

48:02

as things are today and arm speech

48:05

but the other constitution lays out that the government

48:07

officials can be impeached for treason bribery

48:10

or other high crimes and misdemeanors

48:13

so , process of impeaching

48:15

a springboard judges the same as impeached

48:17

present first first as drop

48:20

articles impeachment the house the needs only

48:22

majority to impeach supreme court justice

48:25

a two thirds majority is required in the senate

48:27

to convict same process goes

48:29

for any federal judge and with respect federal

48:32

judges since eighty know three the

48:34

house of representatives as only impeach

48:36

fifteen judges three

48:39

that was surprised me and i'm only eight

48:41

of these impeachments are followed by convictions in

48:43

the senate an article justice

48:46

samuel chases the only supreme court justice

48:48

in the house that was or been impeached and

48:50

he was acquitted and then impeachment

48:52

the senate and eighty know five so

48:55

there's puts me the thing that's in place to hold

48:57

people accountable

48:58

it's only used very

49:01

little historically when we actually

49:03

know barrel lot of cases out there in fact we had

49:05

to choose three of the most egregious

49:08

as examples but there's a lot out there

49:10

there is innocent really

49:13

for the started thirty per is for

49:15

me because it is super super hard

49:17

to get rid of status so

49:19

for the state or the superior court

49:22

for their judges there's you

49:25

know if we don't want them back

49:27

in their possession their elected so

49:29

there's a possibility that they don't get reelected

49:31

right so that is taken to the voters

49:33

and they could lose their stay on the bench that way

49:36

seat judges can also be impeached

49:38

by the state legislatures judges

49:40

usually have to be accused of very

49:42

serious misdeeds to be impeached

49:45

things like associating

49:47

with organized crime figures

49:49

embezzlement like major major

49:51

money mismanagement or fraud

49:53

and or using their powers and not some

49:56

however you cannot

49:58

to fire a judge with the evidence of

50:00

criminal activity growth

50:02

and morality or other

50:04

greta misconduct so

50:07

there also exists a process

50:09

which i feel like this this can make people feel

50:11

a little bit more empowered perhaps by again

50:13

for doesn't really shake out too well in favor

50:16

of those who feel that the judges acting

50:18

and i agree just ways

50:20

in the course of their job but up us as

50:22

call judicial review and all citizens

50:24

can file complaints against any state judge in the

50:26

united states by going to the judicial conduct

50:29

commission for that particular state

50:31

that you're an and the judicial conduct

50:33

missions can impose a range

50:35

of penalties including legal orders

50:37

to see

50:38

this is a particular course of action

50:40

formal warnings temporary suspension

50:43

for sweet

50:44

comment from the bench and removal from office

50:46

and judges are warned or sanctioned

50:48

by the judicial conduct commission more

50:51

often the are actually removed from office

50:53

are forced into retirement south is lot of or

50:55

wagging as to like you did this wrong

50:57

or don't do that again but

51:00

again doesn't really result in

51:02

a lot of

51:03

the movement or remove all the lights

51:07

i know

51:07

hopeless helpless feeling is will

51:10

is is is that that's what i'm talking

51:12

about were filled with you doesn't have any teeth of slide

51:14

yeah so if these people have done

51:16

day i mean you and i work

51:18

in the mail you that that we have a license

51:21

you know if we were to do some of the agree just some

51:23

even if it's a misdemeanor or felony

51:26

as he as it has immediate

51:28

impact on our ability to work

51:31

whereas this position

51:33

seems to be a completely different thing

51:35

like idealize a perfect example people

51:37

should absolutely not drink and drive and

51:39

in the city california do you

51:41

i charges against a license mental

51:43

health clinician far swift

51:46

they are severe and they are immediate

51:49

know why wouldn't we

51:51

have people holding our

51:53

highest positions in a court of law

51:56

and those same thing i entered

51:58

right now they're does exist

51:59

the code of conduct for most judicial

52:02

bodies like the u s

52:03

court has their code of conduct

52:05

the other than states etc so

52:07

that can go into detail but still it's

52:10

it's a code of conduct the penalties

52:12

and the ramifications are consequences

52:15

just aren't really having

52:17

any teams like he said i'm so isn't

52:20

looking at some examples of particularly

52:23

egregious behaviors perpetrated by judges we

52:25

found some real , these here

52:27

we're going to kind of cq all over the bar through

52:29

the first they run they gamut from

52:31

exceedingly criminal to reflections

52:34

criminal to behavior behind

52:35

the night i know there's one per girl here

52:37

i've been waiting to cover for a long time but

52:39

we're gonna save it for the end and nights i

52:42

will try and keep it straight face

52:44

don't historic a , semi like

52:47

sound that looking forward to it

52:48

however i'm gonna start with a non

52:50

american judge or one of my examples

52:53

former canadian judge

52:54

jack

52:56

lila who sat on the quebec

52:58

superior court from nineteen eighty

53:00

five teenage and eighty two as

53:02

well as the quebec court of appeals from nineteen

53:05

ninety two to two thousand and nine when

53:07

he retired so a dilemma

53:10

was arrested charged and subsequently

53:12

convicted of murder in

53:15

june twenty ten for the november

53:17

two thousand and nine death of his wife

53:20

marie nicole rainbow the lila

53:22

throughout the proceedings and subsequent

53:24

imprisonment the always maintained

53:27

his innocence claiming that

53:29

his wife of forty nine years actually

53:32

died by suicide because

53:34

she had significant health problems

53:37

significant mobile

53:38

the issues and

53:40

the quality of life was not great

53:43

she had a stroke and two thousand and seven

53:45

that left her partially paralyzed

53:48

with the necessary use of a wheelchair

53:51

and her last month's were further complicated

53:53

by a lengthy hospital stay after

53:55

a significant hip fracture i can't imagine

53:58

how devastating that was with already her

54:00

condition but during the preparation

54:03

for the trial and the proceedings interestingly

54:05

it was revealed that the

54:08

lila was having an affair

54:10

with his coworker his former secretary

54:13

when his wife died of gunshot

54:15

wound to her head

54:16

lila trial was scheduled to begin

54:18

in two dozen lab and for the delay

54:21

when one of the prosecutors withdrew

54:23

from the proceedings that's always interesting

54:25

now it can be for any number of reasons

54:27

that we aren't privy to but that's always

54:30

interesting a trial finally began

54:32

in may and twenty twelve and in june

54:34

of two thousand twelve the next month to lila was found

54:37

guilty of first degree murder for the death

54:39

of his wife marina called so

54:41

to lila and it's representation preceded

54:43

immediately to appeal the conviction however

54:45

the comeback court of appeals upheld

54:48

the standing session and they declined

54:50

years case moving forward and march

54:52

twenty fifteen the courts announced that justice

54:54

minister peter mackay would

54:57

, the wheel as request for a new trial

54:59

during those proceedings the former judge

55:01

asserted that his wife had

55:04

committed suicide and that her

55:06

attempt was complete with the weapon

55:08

that he had supplied licensing

55:13

your licensing said then why are you giving your e

55:15

your or not maybe not terminally ill

55:17

but your wife who is

55:20

severely impacted by mobile

55:22

issues and help this and help are you providing

55:24

heard the weapons so this assertion

55:27

is reported to have been supported

55:29

by the forensic experts that were brought in

55:31

for that appeal

55:32

right so that the the appeal focused

55:35

on irregularities

55:37

in the original autopsy report and was completed

55:40

by the pathologists and

55:42

the report that was used to convict the lila was

55:44

found to have major shortcomings and evaluated

55:47

by another pathologist so

55:49

another original pathologists his work was found to

55:51

be described as grossly negligent

55:54

because he failed to disclose and preserve

55:56

evidence of significant

55:58

bullet fragments

56:00

windows store and these

56:02

particular fragments would have fully

56:04

established the factory of

56:07

the bullet entered ranges brain

56:09

the mythical amount of gunshot residue

56:11

were found on range else hand

56:14

during the investigation which further

56:16

supported the claims that she fired

56:18

the firearm herself so

56:21

you know about the find a year and it's fun

56:23

to look at the picture of that

56:25

is seen as you can see online there's a photograph

56:28

of her hand that was taken as evidence and areas

56:30

like this major gunshot residue

56:32

smudge our on her hand the

56:35

other thing is is looking at the age

56:37

of the lila at the time these

56:39

were two elderly people the idea

56:43

it's weird that he provided her with this weapon

56:46

but did she had the wherewithal to use it

56:48

but clearly you know the trial

56:50

was not we're not handle

56:52

well to begin a good allow out and

56:54

all of our forensic files listeners right now

56:56

are like oh she totally wiped her hand

56:58

on his exactly

57:00

yeah but he was worried was worried uses you cannot

57:03

go down this rabbit holes so quickly

57:05

so in april of twenty of twenty federal

57:07

justice minister david limit he ordered

57:09

a new trial for the lila where the sentence

57:12

and the conviction were set aside

57:14

and discharged and and twenty twenty two the

57:16

superior court of quebec made a final

57:18

ruling that he would not face second

57:21

trial and he should be released so

57:23

delilah is the first judging canadian

57:25

history to be charged with murder and the first

57:27

serve prison time delilah was incarcerated

57:30

for ten years and he's currently eighty

57:32

seven years old

57:33

free and every every moment so

57:36

meadow when you think about this this is because it's like judges

57:38

judging judges that

57:40

rights are associated

57:42

our this that flight that weapon providing

57:45

the weapon thing is pretty pretty

57:47

sketchy but

57:48

i wonder if there was like an element

57:50

to it at all of like well with this sort of

57:52

like an assisted suicide

57:55

that soylent i'll be the way that it

57:57

the the story line

57:59

league

57:59

but nobody's saying and and anything

58:02

that i read like i have a research i

58:04

was able my they weren't standing and explicitly

58:06

right

58:07

we don't like it when he don't wives

58:09

and at dead and there's an affair

58:11

happening

58:11

i know it's a chief

58:14

well with a okay all right

58:16

let's come with come back to the united states

58:18

and know yeah fuck about a man

58:20

named clarence thomas so

58:23

she was a federal circuit judge and was

58:25

nominated to the supreme court of the united

58:27

states and nineteen ninety one by

58:30

then president george hw

58:32

bush key is to the supreme court's

58:34

the united states and ninety one

58:36

successful senate hearings on his nomination and

58:38

confirmation were finished with an

58:41

almost glowing picture of thomas'

58:43

character a significant also jason

58:46

this emphasis on his character was very

58:48

important because he only had

58:50

a years experience as a judge

58:53

everything was clear to go until an

58:55

f b i interview of a woman

58:57

named and need a hill was

58:59

the to the press resulting in the hearings

59:01

being

59:02

reopened and missile

59:04

was brought in to testify

59:06

so let's address something

59:08

right now very importantly here by introducing

59:11

the level of importance and the actual

59:13

background of the players here anita

59:15

hill as an american attorney author

59:17

educator professor educator social policy

59:20

law and women study at multiple

59:22

universities she became she became bar

59:24

member nineteen eighty and became an attorney

59:26

advisor to clarence thomas after several

59:28

years as a loss as yet with a highly

59:31

reputable firms are just to go back and emphasized

59:33

in nineteen eighty see became

59:36

an attorney advisor to clarence

59:38

thomas the person that she is testifying

59:40

about the sale was admitted to the district of columbia

59:43

bar and ninety eighty began her law career

59:45

as associate with the washington dc from

59:47

of walls our crater and

59:49

ross in nineteen eighty one when

59:51

she became attorney advisor to clarence thomas

59:54

t was then the assistant secretary

59:56

to the us department of education's office

59:58

for civil rights anita hill

59:59

thomas and a sister when he became

1:00:02

chairman of the u s equal employment

1:00:04

opportunity commission so she was

1:00:06

very impressive

1:00:07

the ninety one and she continued to excel

1:00:09

as a leader an educator throughout

1:00:11

the years since this debacle that brought

1:00:13

her into really the vicious

1:00:16

the vicious the public and today still

1:00:18

smart and beautiful as ever at

1:00:20

age sixty five degrees

1:00:22

yeah in her public the deposition in october

1:00:25

of next ninety one shell stated that she had

1:00:27

experienced sexual harassment perpetrated

1:00:29

by thomas while he was her supervisor

1:00:32

at the ios see she testified

1:00:35

that clarence thomas had asked her out

1:00:37

numerous times during her employment

1:00:40

as is assistance as

1:00:42

well as many other thing

1:00:44

it's not so smart

1:00:46

yeah it just continues to build

1:00:49

after declining

1:00:51

many of thomas' advances over the

1:00:53

months that she was there she described

1:00:56

his efforts to create work situations

1:00:59

that would provide him with an opportunity

1:01:01

to discuss sexual topics testify

1:01:03

to thomas about reality and

1:01:06

filmed scenes or groups sex

1:01:08

that he had observed and

1:01:10

rate things pan films that he had

1:01:12

observed thomas repeatedly graphically

1:01:15

described is purported

1:01:18

sexual abilities as well as describing

1:01:21

his genitalia see also described

1:01:23

another particularly disturbing instant were

1:01:25

thomas looked at looked at can on his desk

1:01:27

and asked who has put pubic hair

1:01:29

on my cope

1:01:30

no indicative of

1:01:33

rejection like mail rejection

1:01:35

and which without a doubt it

1:01:38

is it's like a book

1:01:40

yeah

1:01:41

no miss hill was

1:01:43

though aside and continues to be

1:01:46

to the stay with their his website said

1:01:48

assert that her testimony doesn't add up and

1:01:50

people stopped at this apart is by very

1:01:52

strong evidence coming from the initial f b

1:01:54

i interview that she had done republican

1:01:56

sen orrin hatch

1:01:58

work hard to and

1:01:59

in a nutshell was working collaboratively

1:02:02

to destroy thomas' chances

1:02:04

at the supreme court when it should be noted

1:02:07

that the so cooperated throughout the

1:02:09

process even agreeing to take a polygraph

1:02:11

test which of course is not admissible

1:02:14

in court but always insisted

1:02:16

upon until the alleged individual actually

1:02:18

asked for it and hello she's not the went

1:02:20

on trial here so so

1:02:22

to speak right like this isn't a trial but right

1:02:25

to not the person

1:02:26

they'd be raked over the cold

1:02:28

she's a witness and being asked

1:02:31

to take

1:02:31

the graph him being raped

1:02:33

over the coals so here's the thing she

1:02:36

does take the polygraph and

1:02:38

it's supported her assertions about clarence

1:02:40

thomas's actions that she was not being deceptive

1:02:43

so as the implications for these hearings continue

1:02:45

to escalate thomas made

1:02:47

more and more stringent

1:02:50

statements asserting that the actions

1:02:52

were instigated by flight liberals looking

1:02:54

to unseat a conservative supreme

1:02:56

court member despite the testimony and the troubling

1:02:58

allegations thomas was confirmed

1:03:01

to the supreme court by the narrowest margin

1:03:03

since the nineteenth century consisting of

1:03:05

about us fifty two to forty eight so

1:03:08

clearly and that was remembered

1:03:10

the folks that was a time when there was a lot

1:03:12

more reaching across the aisle than there

1:03:14

is now there's like there's so much division

1:03:17

now but back then i mean that's a really

1:03:19

significant and now here we are

1:03:21

off his years later

1:03:23

no it like

1:03:24

perfect example of darvill deny

1:03:27

attack and then reverse victim and

1:03:29

offender just like classic

1:03:31

defense of somebody who's victimized

1:03:34

and

1:03:34

this my likely

1:03:35

anita hill was accused of being either

1:03:37

a time revenge

1:03:40

prompted jilted stalker mentally

1:03:43

ill of course i always like to go to that rates

1:03:45

are delusional vamp i mean all of the

1:03:47

things that she has been called and while

1:03:50

she did follow thomas to another job

1:03:52

after these allegations people forget the

1:03:54

real challenges that women's career trajectories

1:03:57

have faced historically especially

1:03:59

talking about

1:03:59

maybe an airy

1:04:02

go down at the same pathway of questioning

1:04:05

of all i did she leave why didn't she say

1:04:07

something you know we're starting to visit some

1:04:09

blame like

1:04:10

we see in i p v

1:04:12

situations it's kinda grosses

1:04:14

corolla so forget it excursion

1:04:17

it's frustrating because it's just

1:04:19

this ongoing repetition

1:04:21

of history that gets more complicated

1:04:24

the more we supposedly think

1:04:26

that we are up on it

1:04:28

yeah look what's so frustrating for me here is

1:04:30

the lack of perspective as to the reality

1:04:33

of what women have faced historically in any

1:04:35

career they had to put up with so

1:04:37

much shit work twice

1:04:39

as hard to get half as far and

1:04:41

then and here's where our sound like

1:04:43

a a boomer is that current generations

1:04:46

really want to hold their predecessors

1:04:48

to what seems to me to be impossible standards

1:04:51

so you're over there lot of people today that

1:04:53

will still go well she can a laughed how

1:04:56

how could she possibly how can this possibly

1:04:58

have happened and yet she followed him

1:05:00

because she's just she's talking about

1:05:02

the shit that she put up with right

1:05:05

that's what we're losing talking

1:05:07

about the shit that she put up with

1:05:09

that is a reflection on his character

1:05:12

on his quote unquote integrity

1:05:14

right

1:05:15

is it it's not like she was the

1:05:17

only woman put he'll put this as excited

1:05:19

as it's millions of stories i'm sure like

1:05:21

best as just like i'm like that's

1:05:24

that's we did that that is what we put up with and

1:05:26

hopefully not the same degree in such

1:05:28

big members but every

1:05:31

woman's generation in the workplace

1:05:33

has their version though and

1:05:35

fascinating development author david

1:05:37

brock reach wanted the allegations

1:05:40

he had made about muscle in the book

1:05:42

the real anita hill and ninety ninety three

1:05:44

describing his work as an actual

1:05:46

character assassination he's noted to

1:05:48

of apologize to

1:05:50

miss hill many

1:05:51

the later oh good for

1:05:53

you more went that when summer where

1:05:56

i mean i i do know

1:05:58

that

1:06:00

i don't think david will be listening

1:06:02

to this but i do know that he has

1:06:05

made great efforts to remove

1:06:07

himself from the position he took

1:06:10

in the nineties doing a lot

1:06:12

a character assassination the something she was

1:06:14

not the only target there are a lot of targets

1:06:16

and apparently he had an epiphany and

1:06:18

realized what he was doing and had like

1:06:20

on maybe a moral or ethical crisis the

1:06:22

no i don't know how you sit with yourself when

1:06:25

you realize that you played a part can

1:06:28

salute li

1:06:29

the birding the past

1:06:31

of justice the to i

1:06:33

wouldn't i don't tell you i fuckin wouldn't want to be

1:06:36

in that position nine i will

1:06:38

know how i would how i would deal with that

1:06:40

i really don't yeah yeah well

1:06:42

eastern cats

1:06:43

we can't undo where we

1:06:45

know what has happened but i guess coughing

1:06:47

to it and apologizing for it

1:06:49

was dark in

1:06:52

in two thousand and seven wrote an autobiography

1:06:54

and he claims are conspiracy

1:06:56

of pro choice

1:06:57

liberals who were

1:06:59

debated by their fear that he would vote

1:07:01

to overturn rovers

1:07:03

wade when talking

1:07:05

about all

1:07:05

then you to heal stuff so yeah that

1:07:08

you know things are in motion how telling her

1:07:10

well going back isn't that interesting

1:07:12

we talked about one of the qualities when we're talking

1:07:14

about temperament one of the big

1:07:16

red flags is rumination

1:07:19

on perceived grievance [unk] eu

1:07:21

so here we go we got somebody with

1:07:23

an ideology for whatever reason

1:07:26

and and believe me i will sit down with somebody

1:07:28

that is that is anti choice

1:07:30

and we can have a discussion if you're willing to have a discussion

1:07:32

but you know be prepared to have

1:07:34

receipts and not about your belief

1:07:36

system but about actual about thermal

1:07:39

that but in this case it's just

1:07:41

almost shilling that he's been sitting

1:07:43

on this ruminating chef probably

1:07:46

two thousand two thousand when he started writing it but

1:07:48

it's very calling to me look thomas

1:07:50

while initially describing miss hills

1:07:52

work as excellent which was exactly

1:07:55

the way it was described when she was working for him

1:07:57

now he describes her work as mediocre

1:07:59

at best and he describes her character

1:08:01

as what i want to settle and

1:08:04

family feud like the top this is

1:08:06

what we always go after women for for being

1:08:08

emotionally fragile sensitive

1:08:10

and likely to be dramatic and overreacted

1:08:13

is fascinating giving her amazing

1:08:15

self composure and her presentation and

1:08:17

her ongoing significant complishments

1:08:20

since the early nineties and as a

1:08:22

lot of raging yeah says

1:08:24

a lot about him you know if he thought so

1:08:26

poorly of harm why did she write the sport

1:08:28

letters thomas went on to describe

1:08:30

kills peers of the time

1:08:32

that supported her and all employees

1:08:35

you had left him on bad terms

1:08:37

go again like this paranoid

1:08:40

, a son that it's all a conspiracy against

1:08:42

like had looked there were four female witnesses

1:08:44

who are vetted to support any details

1:08:46

case they were not called

1:08:49

dude what the l a times newspaper discovered

1:08:51

was a deal between republicans and

1:08:53

the senate judiciary committee chaired by

1:08:56

by geez you're on all the way to the to

1:08:59

sell yeah we're all over dislike it just shows

1:09:01

how how complex politics are

1:09:04

so how old's oh by the just realized

1:09:07

right away till away male that we get on it up a third

1:09:09

oh and i lay in again and know oh

1:09:11

yeah well as i will be like another to

1:09:13

star review for one episode that you don't

1:09:15

agree with but

1:09:16

related don't talk about the law okay

1:09:19

yeah , so as biden was preparing

1:09:21

to run for president though she reached out to express

1:09:24

regret to muscle and

1:09:26

she's reported to have replied

1:09:28

quote i cannot be satisfied by simply

1:09:30

saying i'm sorry for what happened to you

1:09:33

i will be satisfied when i know that there is real

1:09:35

change and real accountability and

1:09:38

real so

1:09:40

missile so to this day to be a very

1:09:43

private person as declined over the years

1:09:45

to revisit this really challenging

1:09:47

experience despite as she has

1:09:49

stated that bidens conduct at the time does not

1:09:51

disqualifies qualification

1:09:53

for his presidency stating

1:09:56

i'm really open two people changing professional

1:09:58

and classy as well

1:09:59

and last year she published a book

1:10:02

is called believe

1:10:03

they are thirty year journey to and

1:10:05

gender balance so i just want to do

1:10:07

have another know she's not a judge

1:10:10

sounds like she would make an excellent excellent

1:10:12

judge ah but when we talk

1:10:14

about temperament the absolute

1:10:17

opposite of negative aspects

1:10:20

of rumination and

1:10:22

paranoia and proceed grievances this

1:10:24

grievances this who says i'm really open

1:10:26

to people changing

1:10:28

that a lotta last but

1:10:31

gross also not her i just

1:10:33

pray when but we're moving on to something

1:10:35

gross which is

1:10:36

horrific and it in scope lucerne

1:10:39

county judge mark cheer for allah

1:10:42

also known as kids for cash

1:10:44

judge cheer burrell i received a

1:10:46

twenty eight year prison sentence for his role

1:10:48

in the kids for cash scandal

1:10:51

this is a big one this is a real big

1:10:53

one so he was sentenced in two thousand and eleven to twenty

1:10:55

eight years stemming from his acceptance

1:10:57

of over two point eight million

1:11:00

dollars in backroom deals and kickbacks

1:11:02

related to filling privately

1:11:04

developed juvenile detention facilities

1:11:06

to engage in these practices with judge michael

1:11:09

carnahan as well as the developer and

1:11:11

milner of the facilities a judge

1:11:13

presiding over a

1:11:14

he's also ordered a hefty restitution

1:11:16

to be paid in the amount of nine hundred and

1:11:18

sixty five thousand dollars

1:11:20

since lead to the commonwealth of pennsylvania

1:11:22

for his judicial salary and

1:11:25

, two hundred thousand dollars in the restitution

1:11:27

related to attacks charges

1:11:29

so the entire investigation

1:11:31

started when agents of the i rs

1:11:34

looked into see of perella and

1:11:36

his co defendants conahan

1:11:38

for relatively mean i guess

1:11:41

relatively minor tax issues issues

1:11:43

and wire fraud and some tax

1:11:46

fraud

1:11:46

miners timeline

1:11:48

in this age

1:11:50

of minor stuff

1:11:52

the when it turns out i mean it is i have the more minor

1:11:54

over there are flaws but so they ended up

1:11:56

shirt getting charged in january of two

1:11:59

thousand and nine for the

1:11:59

the offended by the irish

1:12:01

what more the came out he acted as the

1:12:03

case develop of school extent

1:12:06

of their actions were revealed the investigation

1:12:08

inquiry that started in two thousand seven it

1:12:10

reveals financial dealings in abuses that

1:12:12

included county government offices

1:12:15

state legislators school districts

1:12:17

and contractors in pennsylvania

1:12:19

both judges agreed to plead guilty by

1:12:22

in july two thousand nine the presiding judge judge

1:12:24

cosac rejected the defense's proposed

1:12:26

plea agreements because neither of

1:12:28

the charges

1:12:30

the or to accept personal responsibility

1:12:32

slurping hundred to

1:12:34

i love judge cause it for doing

1:12:36

that a jail that's integrity right

1:12:38

and they haven't even gotten to the bad stuff

1:12:41

yeah

1:12:41

right in the two

1:12:44

thousand and nine follow up proceeding though

1:12:46

the judges were charged with racketeering

1:12:49

honest services mail fraud money

1:12:51

laundering extortion bribery

1:12:53

tax violations conspiracy

1:12:56

as well as forfeiture

1:12:58

approximately two point eight

1:13:00

million dollars

1:13:01

and after and eleven

1:13:03

day jury trial she of or

1:13:05

ella forfeited the the

1:13:07

million dollars received from robert

1:13:10

miracle miracle is the individual

1:13:12

who developed and built the juvenile detention

1:13:15

facility

1:13:15

so the evidence establish that

1:13:18

carnahan close the existing lucerne

1:13:20

county juvenile detention facility when

1:13:22

he was chief judge then t

1:13:24

arranged for the financing for the private

1:13:26

facilities developed and built by miracle

1:13:29

he was further establish that she ever allah

1:13:31

then said juveniles to those

1:13:33

facilities and that both him and buried

1:13:35

the efforts to question the county's use of

1:13:38

the private facilities as well as their financial

1:13:40

relationships of miracle on health so in case

1:13:42

you're not getting it folks they tore down

1:13:44

be existing structures and maybe the existing

1:13:47

structures need to be torn down but what they did

1:13:49

was they created a private

1:13:51

or a it even if it was

1:13:53

been new county facility

1:13:56

it was larger and i need to fill those bags

1:13:58

so the judges were

1:13:59

like handing out is right and

1:14:02

last our completely inappropriate

1:14:04

for miners are

1:14:06

surrounded

1:14:07

to justify this vague

1:14:09

was you new structure that they were into

1:14:12

the swiss the developer on south

1:14:14

literally kids for caster judicial

1:14:17

and federal scandal had major

1:14:19

consequences although she ever allah

1:14:21

and conahan resign from the bench two thousand

1:14:23

and nine the devastation they both

1:14:25

my is widespread

1:14:27

and significance the supreme

1:14:29

court of pennsylvania had to vacate

1:14:32

thousands of juvenile infections

1:14:34

so we're talking kids convicted

1:14:36

that's probably should not

1:14:38

then just to fill bags well

1:14:41

and then some that maybe should have been

1:14:43

but when you got them all mixed together than you

1:14:45

have a you know of course it's awful

1:14:47

when innocent kids are convicted

1:14:49

and it's awful when you

1:14:51

know guilty parties are

1:14:53

not held responsible for their actions but

1:14:56

this really really screwed it up for them

1:14:58

missouri county did work with a state

1:15:00

and or branch commission on channel justice how

1:15:05

, read in the states justice

1:15:07

system changes that were clearly needed

1:15:09

to protect the constitutional rights as

1:15:12

to funnels

1:15:12

well as improve the oversight

1:15:14

and disciplinary process for judges

1:15:17

in pennsylvania really suck everything

1:15:19

in pennsylvania is just it's pretty

1:15:21

horrific and in june two thousand and eleven

1:15:23

plants were put in place to ensure the compensation

1:15:26

and florida abusive

1:15:28

ex

1:15:28

it's for fun imprisonment due to

1:15:30

the activities of

1:15:32

two judges know

1:15:34

at least are some compensation that happening

1:15:37

but hopefully assist in the right

1:15:39

direction i hope so

1:15:41

tonight so starter shiloh

1:15:43

as ellie not a confidential is the premier

1:15:47

forensic psychology and true crime podcast we

1:15:49

are able many times in our episodes to

1:15:51

offer particularly nuanced

1:15:54

examples of the darker side of humanity

1:15:58

but unfortunately but not one of the the

1:16:01

great , of something that is so

1:16:03

unbelievable to me to this day that like

1:16:06

i'm going to try and control my giggling avoid

1:16:08

because i'm by some of it will not be out of

1:16:10

humor summer we'll we'll be out of discomfort

1:16:13

i promise you are

1:16:15

the same are the on an

1:16:17

extra ring land with i think as

1:16:19

and giggles they're called so in two thousand

1:16:21

and six judge donald be thompson

1:16:24

and honored veteran and twenty three years on the

1:16:26

judicial bench in oklahoma when

1:16:28

on trial on charges that he used

1:16:30

a the

1:16:33

what us again a penis

1:16:35

on , under his robes

1:16:38

oh was tucked in court

1:16:40

court bidding sitting in

1:16:42

judgment mother's for years know

1:16:45

not just one episode four

1:16:47

and my years so let that sink that for

1:16:51

any further penis pump on

1:16:53

himself under his robes ma conducting court

1:16:55

know

1:16:56

no point

1:16:58

clearly now but addict clearly

1:17:01

anciently and happen and it gets

1:17:03

work let's say

1:17:05

, on an ongoing basis

1:17:07

and with increasing regularity regularity

1:17:10

attorneys clerks basically everybody

1:17:13

that was in the in the

1:17:15

had kept hearing of

1:17:17

signal ways it was described was being

1:17:19

similar to blood pressure cuff or

1:17:21

bicycle pump oh my

1:17:24

god i know

1:17:25

the look the allegations came to light after a

1:17:27

police officer who was in the court heard

1:17:30

these bizarre sounds like pumping and releasing

1:17:32

of air bellows and , officer

1:17:34

then identified a device in the judges

1:17:37

area and took photos of it during

1:17:39

a break and proceedings that's exactly

1:17:42

what a cop with detail exactly i found

1:17:44

the evidence i'm that as family

1:17:47

you know why are they said and you know it was

1:17:49

actually important that he did do it because this

1:17:51

probably would have gotten much worse

1:17:53

because this person clearly has

1:17:55

some behavioral drift for whatever reasons

1:17:57

they're doing it and is just escalating

1:17:59

oh my

1:18:00

this like inappropriate sexual

1:18:02

there are all over the place against

1:18:04

so doctor sarlo for our listeners

1:18:07

what what is a penis pop

1:18:11

i'm like talk about the great question

1:18:13

the great question and bling empire

1:18:16

when i watch a reality tv

1:18:18

or sorry it's a pneumatic

1:18:20

device and it is legitimately

1:18:22

used for erectile dysfunction and

1:18:24

it consists of a plastic cylinder

1:18:26

and a modified type of pump

1:18:28

it is similar to a bike pump that

1:18:31

in gorges the male member

1:18:33

by the use of a vacuum and honestly

1:18:35

it's also used recreationally to temporarily

1:18:38

increase the size of one's member if that

1:18:40

individual so desires you have

1:18:42

to be very careful according

1:18:45

to urologist because it

1:18:47

is a skill to learn to know how

1:18:49

much you can tolerate with bouts fairly

1:18:52

bruising your dick yeah

1:18:55

so how many how many how many com

1:18:58

blog , so dear listeners if you're

1:19:00

at work please do not google penis

1:19:02

pump just don't even said out loud so

1:19:04

that theory or alexa will be bombarding

1:19:06

your news feed and amazon shopping list

1:19:08

about will happen okay everyone

1:19:10

here he then elected just went off exactly

1:19:15

exactly lanka okay i'm in

1:19:17

my mind turning i'm ready yeah okay

1:19:19

so during one proceeding thompson

1:19:21

appeared so distracted that

1:19:24

some people thought

1:19:26

it was engaged in a handheld video

1:19:28

game hello hello site like

1:19:31

he was he was offered

1:19:33

a video eleven a twitch but

1:19:35

it was close my guide dog

1:19:38

so someone also because

1:19:40

it is in oklahoma someone

1:19:42

thought that he might be tying fly

1:19:45

fishing lures isn't that

1:19:47

what they call it now me as that with their cause of the

1:19:49

kids are calling these days because of course that's

1:19:51

what one would do when adjudicating a port proceed

1:19:53

ah god so i meet what

1:19:55

made this trial really good ol

1:19:57

inducing was watching the defensive

1:19:59

locator pantomime

1:20:03

masturbation motions over

1:20:05

and over again of course the actual

1:20:07

use of the device demonstrated

1:20:09

in the courtroom to illustrate bats

1:20:17

why

1:20:19

didn't i didn't plead guilty i doing

1:20:21

i wasn't rial i

1:20:24

, just doing this he was

1:20:26

eventually charged with four counts of indecent

1:20:28

exposure each of them punishable after ten

1:20:31

years in prison and if convicted of the charges

1:20:33

also had to register as a sex offender

1:20:35

with possibility of ending is

1:20:38

seven thousand four hundred and

1:20:40

eighty nine dollar a month pension

1:20:42

that's a lot of money in last

1:20:45

day a nice aldo

1:20:47

thompson to say and in his own

1:20:49

defense of cari asserted that

1:20:51

the device was just a gag gift from a friend

1:20:54

a , those assertions were pretty flat

1:20:56

said to myself to us

1:20:59

it can't with you today

1:21:01

stating that he did

1:21:03

not use the pump under the bench or in his office

1:21:10

just running just testimony has

1:21:12

steve

1:21:13

this is my gun se i just

1:21:15

i was provided by a number of witnesses

1:21:18

including his them a court reporter

1:21:20

miss lisa faster and she described

1:21:23

the really in a tearful and distraught manner

1:21:25

during her narrative as being

1:21:27

able to finally trace that strange

1:21:30

sound in the courtroom thompson

1:21:33

she testified between two thousand one

1:21:35

in two thousand three saw the judge

1:21:38

expose themselves at least wow

1:21:41

currently salute in all seriousness

1:21:43

see gave an absolute bizarre

1:21:46

account of hearing the sound during

1:21:48

a trial in two thousand and two when

1:21:50

she heard the pump during be

1:21:52

emotionally devastating testimony

1:21:54

other man sharing his grief

1:21:57

over the murder of his plans on us

1:21:59

this guy on us to foster

1:22:02

stated that the first time skeleton if i the song

1:22:04

activity was in two thousand but she was

1:22:06

afraid to make any kind of report to authorities

1:22:08

and here's a quote i didn't want to be found

1:22:11

dead in a ditch somewhere and import

1:22:13

about the fear mean all merseyside

1:22:15

that speaks to the level

1:22:17

of fear and that particular

1:22:20

court

1:22:21

yeah while at ease that

1:22:23

the know we're supposed to be held by these judges

1:22:26

not like he's a corgi weird

1:22:28

al by like

1:22:30

it speaks more than maybe

1:22:32

the system yeah so

1:22:35

here's another quote from a witness it sounded

1:22:37

like penis bugged me it hastily

1:22:39

and corrected himself saying that he had seen

1:22:41

such devices in movies such as austin

1:22:44

powers and dead man on campus of certainly

1:22:46

never won in person he just see to start

1:22:48

had heard them and movies and it's reported that

1:22:51

the pumping only occurred occasionally around

1:22:53

two thousand and one but it became more

1:22:55

and more common and way

1:22:58

more indiscreet because no

1:23:00

one challenged him on it and no one turn

1:23:02

demand so as

1:23:04

as of the trial thompson was disbarred

1:23:06

after being convicted on four counts of indecent

1:23:08

exposure and he was sentenced and august

1:23:11

two thousand and six to four years in prison

1:23:13

and guess how many months he served and

1:23:16

now not for years and twenty how

1:23:19

do you mean that the part where it's really a mean all

1:23:21

humor aside like this is so

1:23:23

bad i don't really use the word disgusting

1:23:25

very much because as doubt

1:23:27

that lights this is disgusting

1:23:29

like this is it's the a be

1:23:32

idea that he's exposing themselves to people

1:23:34

is something that you and i have witnessed

1:23:36

in our work for sex offenders disguise

1:23:39

the a perverse me he really oh he

1:23:41

sees a pervert but it's such

1:23:43

an ultimate power play on land

1:23:45

yeah to get to the point where you spend

1:23:48

that you can be

1:23:49

in a very high profile

1:23:52

position for literally you're

1:23:54

raised above the other people in the room

1:23:57

and you can do this and people aren't gonna

1:23:59

say anything

1:23:59

and then to just absolutely

1:24:02

disrespected disgraced the court by

1:24:04

even if it's just hurting yourself

1:24:07

the an opinion about masturbation or whatever

1:24:10

the disgrace that that shows even

1:24:12

if nobody knew about it

1:24:13

it's a new for year an ornament minutes and ultimate

1:24:16

fuck you are in i didn't they would i want

1:24:18

to do

1:24:19

thankfully he was suspended from

1:24:21

law practice and he was sanctioned by the state

1:24:23

of oklahoma

1:24:24

and he will

1:24:25

thanks and because he

1:24:28

brought discredit on

1:24:30

the judiciary and legal profession and here's

1:24:32

a case

1:24:39

but is an affront to the judicial branch

1:24:41

of government and legal profession i

1:24:43

love that quote nothing to batch be

1:24:46

to the thought of what's going on today

1:24:48

and proceedings without judges are without are

1:24:50

are he did have his pension cut off despite

1:24:52

to appeals and newspaper seem to be

1:24:54

having a pretty good time with creating headlines in

1:24:57

my line for the case so there's always like a lot

1:24:59

of the launch rondoron plans being used

1:25:01

a former here's what a former oklahoma judge

1:25:03

who served time in prison for using a penis pump

1:25:06

the presided over trials will have his hefty

1:25:08

pension yanked fergus

1:25:15

the other reporters started to have a good time with it

1:25:17

another court reporter jan doolan testified

1:25:19

that she had cleaned out thompson's office

1:25:21

following his retirement

1:25:24

quote unquote and been she finally admitted

1:25:26

to confiscating and trashing bottles

1:25:28

of hand lotion as well as precise

1:25:31

bottles of by agra and see alice

1:25:34

and for people who are

1:25:36

exhibitionists if there's

1:25:38

definitely there

1:25:39

the you know it's not always just like running

1:25:42

the somebody with the trench coat on and like shocking

1:25:44

them it's sort of these like covert

1:25:46

how can i get away with some of these behaviors

1:25:49

the maybe no one will ever know about that

1:25:51

it sounds like that's is completely escalated

1:25:53

perhaps the a bit behavioral dress

1:25:56

so maybe like what you're dying as maybe

1:25:58

his initial intense whether conscious

1:26:00

or unconscious was to

1:26:03

be somewhat overt and his

1:26:05

actions but to the extent where

1:26:07

he would pass plausible deniability

1:26:10

outright oh no i didn't mean to do that

1:26:12

oh no i'm so sorry like i didn't know all

1:26:14

right how could i possibly expose myself to

1:26:16

you but yes season as high position

1:26:18

nobody ever challenge some on it try

1:26:20

and so he just takes the hard hard

1:26:23

right in behavioral drastically

1:26:25

unlike the now i did it hard are the and

1:26:28

know that but i also feel badly

1:26:30

for you know i feel badly for everybody

1:26:32

involved including the women who

1:26:34

were basically victimized

1:26:36

by best they were exposed and

1:26:39

then this court reporter feeling that she had

1:26:41

to go and clean up as us

1:26:44

disgusting stuff got a gal can

1:26:46

you imagine if they used like one of those you the lights

1:26:49

like guy and bench would have been disgusting

1:26:52

thompson will not receive his pension

1:26:55

that he will get retirement benefits from

1:26:57

his stand as a state legislature that

1:26:59

he held from nineteen seventy four to nineteen

1:27:02

eighty years

1:27:03

benefits that won't be mad

1:27:05

the not in any not much he'll he'll he'll be suffering

1:27:08

feet live that long but what i want to wrap

1:27:10

up west indies particular examples is that

1:27:12

this ties back to the kids for cash

1:27:14

scandal because this legitimately

1:27:17

lead to a wave of appeals

1:27:19

from defendants who could now claim

1:27:22

that thompson wasn't paying attention to

1:27:24

them file presiding over there cases

1:27:26

yeah and other than than his mind

1:27:29

athena wanted out

1:27:32

it there we go we have just some to

1:27:34

a new low on elena

1:27:35

in

1:27:38

it's a big it's all in the services

1:27:41

to arouse the truth out people need to know

1:27:44

i think that's think that's honestly like

1:27:47

the for a perk up and when i hear

1:27:49

about this because it has to do

1:27:50

he proudly the sexual behavior stuff

1:27:53

yourself right now yes

1:27:56

i'm a weirdo interested weirdo interested sorted out is

1:27:58

such a good point that this

1:27:59

what what they consider deviant

1:28:02

sexual behavior and can you just

1:28:04

wrapping up thomas mine on

1:28:06

stevia

1:28:07

well as in tv and i know like

1:28:09

normal is not well defined

1:28:11

right when we look at rates of

1:28:14

types of sexual behavior the people

1:28:16

engage in there are

1:28:18

set of the rarest of the rare are the ones

1:28:20

that do with violence ones that have to do

1:28:22

with prepubescent children but

1:28:24

there's that's also that category

1:28:27

where if you're doing anything that does not involved

1:28:29

in sense with someone else

1:28:30

yeah yet

1:28:32

within yourself to than right or

1:28:34

enough on sexual activity the dot is absolutely

1:28:37

d then it's because you don't have consents

1:28:39

to expose yourself to someone so this

1:28:41

is really interesting if he'd like you were saying he follows

1:28:43

that line of what we

1:28:45

call passive exhibitionists where

1:28:48

they might put themselves in a position where

1:28:50

he can be easily explained away

1:28:52

is why they were perhaps new

1:28:54

are naked are caught in that state like

1:28:57

a enough getting a massage and then

1:28:59

be nude underneath the towel but i'm letting that

1:29:01

how

1:29:01

my boss right some some

1:29:04

exhibitionists were more passive would situations

1:29:07

like that but yeah i think

1:29:09

the only started with him he has a bench

1:29:11

covering his lap and he has a robe covering

1:29:13

his lap and he thought up i can do

1:29:16

the stuff back here and we'll

1:29:18

be best internal sexual power

1:29:20

and no one will know and than it i'm sure

1:29:23

it just escalated to using a penis

1:29:25

pump that makes a sound that people are going to hear

1:29:27

but not challenge him on as well as

1:29:29

sounds like falon exposure

1:29:31

as well tell most long

1:29:34

episode folks smart one of our oh gee

1:29:36

types of episodes of episodes

1:29:38

encourage people will be no all joking aside

1:29:41

that they're probably some things here that are challenging

1:29:43

to people in i know we're always gonna

1:29:46

respect that and hope that

1:29:48

you understand that we're struggling with

1:29:50

some of these issues to you know that it is

1:29:52

a dialectic it is holding opposites

1:29:55

and looking at the big picture and

1:29:57

challenge ourselves to see things

1:29:59

a big three dimensional paradigm

1:30:02

or four dimensional even some the

1:30:05

bear with us as he of the vast majority

1:30:07

of our listeners do with

1:30:10

the it is this episode shops

1:30:13

on the twentieth and on the twenty

1:30:15

third we will have another like

1:30:16

stream movies

1:30:24

right well known

1:30:27

july some of them they think basically

1:30:29

i [unk] halloween and christmas completely

1:30:31

and most of the most important time the years as

1:30:33

far as i'm concerned yes all

1:30:35

right well everyone will see you next time on l

1:30:37

a not so confidential

1:30:40

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1:30:51

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