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today figures of refuses to

1:00

your to do city

1:26

welcome back everybody this is

1:28

doctor scott along

1:30

with my partner in crime

1:33

is

1:33

i'm air so i get his doctor silo

1:36

from l enough a confidential welcome back

1:38

you're here with us today for episode

1:40

one o seven lots of exciting stuff

1:42

happening we are live in our best law

1:44

saves in these two months without a leash

1:47

or and he added along with all the the

1:49

stress that comes with that began we got a lot

1:51

going on in two days were

1:53

going to see guys at the true crime podcast us

1:55

will in dallas cannot wait to see

1:57

who's able to show up for that that also means

1:59

that we are one much closer to the

2:01

savannah crime expo that occurs on

2:03

september tenth it happens and savannah

2:06

georgia and then we have

2:08

the pacific northwest festival on

2:10

october eighth and ninth and auburn washington

2:13

right outside seattle so please check our

2:15

show notes on our website for more details

2:17

were busy busy busy yeah

2:19

i'm getting very excited that like as like

2:21

this i'm speaking at the south seas

2:24

with and putting

2:25

together final touches on things and

2:27

getting into accept that most especially for savannah

2:30

like

2:30

can't wait to

2:32

wander around that city

2:34

the i'm eating oh and i started at midnight

2:36

in the garden have been evil last night

2:38

about oh no the book is great

2:40

and it's a good movie too but the book is really good

2:43

yes okay, so our

2:45

recap for episode 106

2:47

that was our documentary review

2:49

episode went little out of order this month

2:52

and it was on the series web

2:54

of make-believe so we focused

2:57

on the very first death

2:59

by swat where we explore the evolution

3:02

of really ultimate form

3:04

of trolling but in real life and

3:06

with very,

3:09

very real

3:09

the we find throughout the

3:11

documentary, the doctor follows the incredible

3:14

path of destruction at the hands

3:16

of a swatting perpetrator out of los

3:18

angeles so very fitting

3:20

very interesting and give us an

3:22

opportunity to finally have an episode

3:25

dedicated to the phenomenon

3:27

of swatting

3:27

and also part of another great

3:30

series on all internet crimes

3:32

so it's it's a great little series that we

3:34

may even do another episode on

3:36

one of their other subjects but definitely go back

3:38

and give it a listen if you get a chance guess

3:40

for today again kind

3:42

of weird how these things happen but i was toying

3:45

around with this topic of looking

3:47

at assassinations and people who

3:50

perpetrate assassination and

3:52

siri go just very sitting that we're

3:54

going to be in dallas next weekend's the

3:56

city of one of the most famous

3:58

historical assassin and and

4:01

we're going to explore that's for ,

4:04

this is not your oliver stone j

4:06

f k conspiracy episodes the don't matter

4:08

with assists and try

4:10

and stick the research as much as possible

4:12

and give you the facts as we know

4:15

them for them cases that were going to cover

4:17

today but going back

4:19

to biblical days assassinations

4:22

has been has saying assassinations

4:24

to be discussed and be discussed of ways

4:27

including during times of war and

4:29

when citing international terrorism

4:32

such as like having to hunt down

4:34

and take out the head of the snake of an organization

4:37

and then there's also a rich history across cultures

4:39

of assassinations furthering more victories

4:42

and the freeing of enslaved

4:44

are marginalized groups were a

4:47

hydrant of a leader perhaps just had

4:49

to be taken out but we're going to keep this

4:51

conversation focused on the

4:53

quote unquote everyday person

4:55

who feels compelled to carry out an assassination

4:58

for their own personal reasons

5:00

and

5:01

more modern and contemporary times

5:04

the us and we're also not going

5:06

to address contract killing or hit

5:08

men because that's it's own specific

5:11

genre and we will definitely have that is a topic

5:13

for a separate episode in the future

5:16

but recently there was global news of a high profile

5:18

assassination that occurred in a historically

5:20

very safe country with traditionally low

5:22

rates are violence and in july

5:25

of this year japan's former prime minister

5:27

shinzo ave was shot at close

5:30

range and killed while he was

5:32

giving a political campaign speech in

5:34

the historic town of nora which is just

5:36

outside kyoto was shot from behind

5:38

with a homemade firearms

5:40

and forty one year old suspect was immediately

5:43

taken into custody and then preliminary information

5:45

shows the suspect had admitted

5:47

to wanting to kill mr ave because

5:50

he falsely believed that ave was

5:52

connected to a religious organization

5:54

that he held a grudge against

5:56

wow lol going on there but yeah significant

5:59

for a country that no don't even allow gun

6:01

ownership yeah i think

6:02

to highlight this incident in the one here and

6:04

talk about in the second just because this

6:06

isn't just something that happened in the sixties

6:08

nice i mean it's right though

6:11

a threat today yeah i mean and this

6:13

morning there was a story that popped

6:15

up about a guy who last christmas

6:17

had attempted to gain access to and

6:19

assassinate the queen of england he was dressed

6:22

in a hood and a mask he was armed

6:24

with a crossbow he came within

6:26

eyesight of the queen's apartment before

6:28

he was apprehended and he told the protection

6:31

detail i'm here to kill the queen

6:33

he had been held at the broadmoor high

6:35

security psychiatric hospital since his capture

6:37

and he now has been charged with treason

6:40

and the specific portion of treason he faces

6:43

comes from a one hundred and eighty year old

6:45

trees and act which reads intent

6:47

to injure the person of her majesty

6:49

queen elizabeth the second or to

6:51

alarm her majesty is only

6:53

twenty years old and he's from southampton

6:56

yeah so as you can imagine

6:59

we're gonna be just trigger warning share when

7:01

we talk about then violence and murder

7:03

and we will talk about the ways

7:05

in which assassins carry out these these

7:08

murders and and break it down even

7:10

by what type of weapon

7:12

you yes

7:13

so we need to go back and i thought it was

7:15

really interesting because

7:17

topic realize i and many

7:19

other foundational episodes that we've covered

7:21

previously stocking behaviors

7:23

delusional disorders grieve and serve

7:25

and violent behavior talked about a lot

7:28

recently and as i've been

7:30

doing more and more research on mass casualty events

7:32

it's interesting to go back and see how people

7:34

would attempt to get their grievances

7:37

mets throughout history as well

7:39

as looking at spits friends

7:41

of what the public kind of becomes obsessed with

7:43

and this true crime

7:46

way of life seems to impact

7:48

as or i guess what the media chooses

7:50

to cover so i want to go backward

7:53

because we're going out and up landing on

7:55

assassinations but if you look at the two

7:57

thousand it's all about mass casualty

7:59

of and and things that are often

8:01

streams online with legacy

8:04

tokens like manifestoes being left on mine

8:06

and then the nineties to

8:08

the early two thousand you have school

8:10

shooting

8:11

that we were sort of the

8:13

i'm that we were all very fearful of

8:15

still are that that's when they really rose

8:17

to the level of being in

8:19

our face all the time and then the ninety

8:21

seems like it was all about domestic terrorism

8:24

you know we had the oklahoma city bombing

8:26

and some other really

8:29

high profile incidents profile incidents

8:31

individuals are wreaking havoc on our homeland

8:34

and that started to develop

8:36

into it's own thing and then of course

8:39

seventies and eighties serial killers

8:41

was the flavor of those

8:43

decades for what we were really intrigued

8:45

with with the sixties and

8:47

into the seventies is really

8:50

about assassinations and

8:52

is just

8:53

very interesting time in history

8:55

some very prolific assassinations

8:57

of political figures including j f

8:59

k malcolm x mlk

9:02

robert kennedy and

9:04

his sixties was a period of

9:06

hence

9:08

the unrest not just here but also

9:10

really all across the world there were mass

9:12

global protests some met

9:14

with really intense police brutality

9:17

there were terrorist acts

9:19

like were talking about

9:21

the not what sort of bordered on domestic

9:24

terrorism in other countries specifically

9:26

italy and africa with a

9:28

lot of rising , against

9:31

people and power in those areas and

9:33

then you had the black panthers escalating

9:36

war with law enforcement here in the united

9:38

states very ,

9:41

time allen seen dillingham who

9:43

lectures on the nineteen sixties

9:45

at springhill college in alabama

9:47

state in a uk article

9:49

quotes almost every major national leader

9:52

of the black struggle in the united states is

9:54

assassinated and quote meeting during

9:56

this period of time and he goes on to say i

9:58

don't think that people sit down and cons

9:59

just like

10:02

a mac and martin luther king jr

10:04

but also medgar evers who was

10:06

a civil rights activists in mississippi as

10:08

well as various members of the black panther

10:10

party including fred hampton and chicago

10:13

who was a young charismatic

10:15

black panther leader who was twenty two years old

10:17

when he was killed by the chicago police in his bed

10:19

and the middle of the night so i think it's

10:21

it's safe to say that those that to

10:24

be enormous threats that

10:26

a struggle for black liberation

10:29

supposed to certain sections of

10:31

the us and of society

10:33

and were really reflections of the stories and

10:35

emotional underpinnings of the time

10:37

but when we look at the deaths of j

10:39

f k and his brother robert

10:42

kennedy we have perpetrators

10:44

with sixty grievances the

10:46

and severe mental illness

10:48

respectively which could also be

10:50

exacerbated by

10:51

they the overall stressful

10:54

states of the world

10:56

and of course the united states during

10:58

the nineteen sixties so different sort of like

11:00

seen a backdrop for this

11:02

moment in time because you

11:05

and i are gonna cover jfk assassination

11:08

but also looking at a crime in the eighties

11:10

but i think this really does have an impact on

11:13

the public at large and i

11:15

came across of little tidbits

11:17

here that i thought was really great in which

11:19

is seated sometimes the assassination of a

11:21

leader is so shocking and profound that

11:23

it triggers what psychologists call flashbulb

11:25

memory in a country's citizens

11:27

many will remember forever where they

11:29

were and what they were doing at the moment

11:32

that they heard their leader was murdered

11:34

so i don't know what that flag because

11:36

i haven't been around for something like that but

11:38

i always hear this

11:40

remembering where you laughter when something

11:42

like this happen of course i have my own versions of that

11:44

but it's not leader

11:46

of the country

11:47

the being murdered so

11:49

i just got a very poignant brt

11:51

that's a great description me my experience was

11:53

certainly when john lennon was murdered

11:56

i was in college when there is be attempt

11:58

on reagan i remember the think

12:00

they were very very big deals and you know

12:02

halted all television everything to sort

12:04

of you know focused on those the news

12:07

anyway we're gonna be highlighting case

12:09

studies at the end of the days episode that have to do

12:11

with an assassination of president and

12:13

attempted assassination of president so

12:15

let's just here to talk about the law

12:17

enforcement agency tasked with protecting

12:20

the president as well as assessing a

12:22

huge amount of threats who

12:24

and what is the secret service we

12:26

talk about it a lot it's turn the other the term

12:28

is thrown around but do people really

12:30

understand the full scope

12:33

or the narrow scope of

12:35

what the secret service dies because i feel i get

12:37

is broad and narrow and doing stick

12:39

ways so their mission statement is

12:41

we protect our nation's highest

12:43

elected leaders visiting foreign heads

12:45

of state and national special security

12:48

events and safeguard that the us financial

12:50

infrastructure and payment systems again

12:53

that's something i don't think a lot of people now

12:55

safeguarding the u s financial

12:57

infrastructure and payment systems

12:59

so they're one of america's oldest

13:02

federal law enforcement agencies originally

13:04

created and eighteen sixty five to combat

13:06

rampant counterfeiting in order to

13:08

stabilize america's young financial system

13:11

and body into the civil war nearly one third

13:13

of all currency in circulation was

13:15

counterfeit and as a result the

13:17

country's financial stability was

13:19

very much in jeopardy so to address this

13:22

concern the secret service was established

13:24

as a bureau in the treasury department

13:26

lot of people don't know that although

13:29

many conspiracy theorist do and they're

13:31

always harping on that that juxtaposition

13:34

of law enforcement and finance

13:36

and i will yeah , pisses off of people

13:38

off so and ninety no

13:40

one following the assassination of

13:42

president william mckinley president william new york

13:45

the secret service was tasked with it's second

13:47

mission the protection of the president

13:50

now today the secret services mission is twofold

13:52

protection of the president and vice president and others

13:55

and investigations into crimes

13:57

against the financial infrastructure of the united states

13:59

or that mentioned here on the podcast the for ever

14:01

relatives who works to track

14:03

down fraud within medical systems he

14:06

is part of the secret service and was

14:08

you know actively engaged in

14:10

presidential arcade but now

14:12

focuses on this specific type

14:15

of work see really

14:17

has educated me in a way that

14:19

is unbelievably staggering

14:22

the amounts of money stolen

14:24

from the government by us

14:27

citizens just overwhelming

14:30

let me give you a hint it's literally in

14:32

the billions that much as defrauded

14:34

from the government each year and to

14:36

pick a quote from my my friend

14:39

like twenty five cents of every dollar

14:41

that the government spends goes through

14:43

hhs so even a small fraction

14:45

of fraud is really big money

14:48

i missed the so senses treasury

14:50

or secret service treasury that's

14:52

totally separate from anything ira

14:55

related to that taking out like

14:57

that's fraud and know allison

14:59

williams alone now

15:01

that's now that's other thing that really planet and

15:03

like a fascinating subject that one of

15:05

the things that a lot of people don't know because it was

15:07

kept kind of on the down low is that obama

15:09

was one of the first president's that actually

15:12

actively went after people

15:14

hiding from the i rs and

15:17

obama actually dot back billions

15:21

and billions of dollars of money's

15:23

that were being held in the cayman islands

15:25

in all of these shell companies are how

15:28

the u s from millionaires and billionaires

15:30

within the u s so another reason as

15:32

he was not lived by a big portion

15:34

of the the appalachians like

15:36

he was make them pay their fair share of taxes

15:39

you know the secret service has primary jurisdiction

15:41

to investigate certain financial crimes which

15:43

can include counterfeiting like i said before

15:45

or other us government obligations

15:48

forgery deaths of united

15:50

states treasury checks bonds other kinds of securities

15:53

credit card fraud telecommunications

15:55

fraud computer fraud identity

15:57

fraud and certain other crimes affecting

15:59

federal

15:59

the insured financial institutions

16:02

a wide breadth of things to they do

16:04

i you know i i would have thought so

16:06

much of that just falls on local agencies

16:09

he i mean what's made it complex

16:11

is the ease with which we can do financial

16:13

transactions now which you know

16:16

many , that are younger than me don't

16:18

realize that like you had to rush to

16:20

the bank at the end of the week like and

16:23

were like rushing to get your check cast

16:25

you know i remember when a t m's came

16:27

out and like it was holy

16:29

crap i can get out money any i'm having

16:32

money money out any time

16:34

out day or night and like that the relatively new thing

16:36

so this thing so

16:38

upgrade to our experience also

16:40

has a dark side to because electronically

16:43

transferred money is very easy

16:46

yeah to to move around a steal

16:49

to hide that wouldn't things

16:51

that the secret service definitely investigates

16:53

guess so some interesting history

16:55

to note here in eighty six

16:57

the seven the secret service responsibilities

17:00

brought in to include cook detecting

17:03

person's perpetrating france against the government

17:05

misappropriation resulted in investigations

17:07

into the ku klux klan nonconforming

17:10

distillers smugglers

17:12

mail robbers land frauds

17:14

and a number of other and fractions against

17:16

federal laws and then at night chino

17:18

six secret service operatives

17:21

began to investigate western land

17:23

frogs and the secret services

17:26

investigation returned millions

17:28

of acres of land to the government's

17:30

and this is when operative just

17:32

as a walker was murdered

17:35

on november third night chino seven

17:37

while working on one of those land fraud cases

17:39

some he was the for

17:40

the great service operatives

17:42

murdered

17:43

in their history in nineteen seventeen

17:45

congress enacted legislation making it

17:47

a crime to threaten the president by mail

17:49

or any other manner i guess they were getting

17:52

a lot of threatening

17:53

the letters i guess the hedger thought

17:55

of by that and then let's jump all the

17:57

way to nineteen sixty five congress passes

17:59

legislation and making at a federal crime to

18:02

it

18:02

director for the a president's hosts

18:05

j f k know why

18:07

that was in a thing i don't know i mean obviously

18:09

just plain like murders on the books

18:11

but at least there could be a federal crime attached

18:14

to it also congress authorized

18:16

the secret service to then start protecting

18:19

a former president and his wife

18:21

during his lifetime see the emphasis on

18:23

him and his wife and

18:26

, lifetime lifetime then think

18:28

team seventy one was a very cool year

18:30

because laurie anderson sue baker

18:32

captain smith

18:35

and scylla stance or sworn in

18:37

as the first five female sexual

18:39

isn't as the secret service two thousand

18:41

seven this was notable because

18:43

protection begins for presidential candidate

18:46

begins for barack obama in may

18:48

which was the earliest initiation

18:50

a secret service protection for any candidate

18:53

in the history of the secret service

18:56

doing these duties so presidential candidate

18:58

hillary clinton's she already received

19:00

protection before because see

19:02

was

19:03

former first lady so before she even

19:05

entered into the race that but actually there for

19:07

her

19:07

what's notable is that barack obama

19:10

dot it very early as well and then in two

19:12

thousand nine the fifty six presidential

19:15

inauguration was the largest and

19:17

most complex event ever

19:19

overseen by the secret service in

19:21

all five separate national special

19:23

security events were associated with

19:25

the inauguration of president barack obama

19:28

and the secret service oversaw the implementation

19:30

of the security plan for each one

19:32

of them so was a massive massive and

19:34

taking for them be clearly a mean that's

19:37

going to be an enormous enormous

19:39

world event that lot more the

19:41

world's super powers with a history

19:44

of ingrained in embedded racism

19:46

is actually electing for even has a

19:48

has it running a black man bio

19:51

yeah that's a very big deal by law

19:53

the secret service is authorized to protect the president

19:55

the vice president for other individuals next

19:57

in order of succession to the office of the

20:00

the that the president elect and the vice

20:02

president elect they also protect the

20:04

immediate families of the individuals

20:06

i just mentioned former presidents their spouses

20:09

except when the spouse remarries children

20:11

of former presidents until the age of sixteen

20:14

visiting heads of foreign states or governments

20:16

spend their spouses traveling with them father

20:18

distinguish foreign visitors to united states

20:20

and official representatives of

20:23

the united states performing special missions

20:25

abroad so what are some other ones major

20:27

presidential and vice president candidates as you

20:29

talked about and their spouses within

20:31

one hundred and twenty days of a general

20:34

presidential election other individuals

20:36

as designated per executive order of

20:38

the president and national

20:40

special security events when doesn't

20:43

aided by such by the secretary of the department

20:45

of homeland security it

20:47

seems like get over the years it has really expanded

20:50

to the point now where the president

20:52

can sign an executive order and say this

20:55

individual or that individual needs

20:57

protection as well so looked

20:59

the challenge of profiling anyone

21:01

that can be a danger to any of the categories

21:04

that we just mentioned really started with the secret

21:06

service in the seventies and eighties because after several

21:08

close calls or plots against

21:10

nixon ford carter day began

21:12

working with mental health professionals out of bridgewater

21:15

state hospital for the criminally

21:17

insane in boston massachusetts in ordered

21:19

start trying to figure out how to assess

21:22

for the levels of dangerousness within these

21:24

threads that were coming in against

21:26

this class of protected figures

21:28

it's very exciting to me that they started

21:30

reaching out to mental health professionals fact

21:33

that and that collaboration

21:35

ended up resulting in be exceptional

21:38

program which was basically

21:41

the secret services version of mine

21:43

hunters so doctor fine of

21:45

bridgewater and special agent

21:47

bisexual when around the country interviewing

21:50

incarcerated assassins and those

21:52

who had attempted assassination of

21:54

public figures including march shot

21:56

men who had murder john lennon most offenders

21:59

were very ben and accommodating

22:01

and listen to this were net mark

22:03

chapman was interviewed he talked

22:05

of a letter that he got

22:08

that stood out from all of the

22:10

other letters and correspondents that he was getting

22:12

in prison and he

22:14

said this one sit out because the person

22:17

writing him it sounded

22:19

word very deranged

22:22

that person ended up being robert

22:24

bardo the man who sought to murder

22:25

the actress rebecca safer so

22:28

crazy but you know that before we started

22:30

diving into the some kind of blown away by that i

22:32

did not know that the ah faceted

22:34

also like is so ironic

22:36

to that light cheers this person that you're interviewing

22:39

who is mentally ill themselves

22:41

and has committed and terrible crime in their go and pay i'm

22:43

back had that was like yeah this

22:46

letter really disturbed me that disturbed got

22:48

and i and i ended up getting this

22:50

from the book that we mentioned

22:53

in our school shooters

22:55

episode i think i talked about that i was reading

22:57

in our

22:58

after last

22:59

this episode but trigger points by

23:01

mark follow him and he goes

23:03

through and that sort of the history of threat assessment

23:05

that he breaks it down by the different areas so

23:07

he notes how like they they went

23:10

out and do these interviews and then

23:12

later he note knew about

23:14

robert bartow of course because

23:17

him

23:17

then it starts to take off into this area

23:19

of try to figure out with stockings all about some

23:22

wild stuff but it's this project took

23:24

five years and they studied eighty three offenders

23:26

going back to nineteen forty nine and in nineteen

23:28

ninety nine fine and busted you will published

23:31

their findings and a paper titled assassination

23:34

and the united the an operational

23:36

study of recent assassins attackers

23:39

and near lethal approach hers basically

23:41

covering although to have acted

23:44

out rather than just people

23:46

who have threatens without

23:48

any accent so this

23:50

indicated that this project was meant to

23:52

help law enforcement do their job

23:55

of prevention and intervention

23:57

as well when it comes to these types of crimes

24:00

that he focused on thoughts

24:02

and behaviors associated with the kramer

24:04

act and for those that they couldn't

24:06

interview they reviewed archival

24:08

data and had over seven hundred

24:11

coated data

24:12

right so

24:13

zoc a little bit about what they found in their study

24:16

i love that you zeroed

24:18

in and found us because i i can't

24:20

help but thinking about our recent live stream

24:22

with dr john delatour because

24:24

he had a discussion and i love when somebody

24:26

else gets on a rant like i usually do

24:29

and one of the things we were talking about was

24:31

his experience with people who call themselves

24:34

experts in a particular area that's

24:36

a little squishy and the one the example he

24:38

used was body language experts

24:40

and we were all riffing on the fact that there's

24:43

that's not a thing there is no data

24:45

that studies this so here is a perfect

24:47

example of how you actually

24:49

create a needs assessment

24:51

to figure out what it is you need to look

24:53

at and then you go look at it and then you

24:55

code it and then you analyze that data

24:58

that's where the real good stuff comes from

25:00

so you can understand what the phenomenon actually

25:02

is so the findings from that secret

25:05

service study sixty percent of

25:07

the targets a violent act or individuals

25:09

being protected by the secret service

25:11

and over half of the attacks took

25:13

place at the home or office

25:16

of the target forty per cent took

25:18

place at the temporary sites like

25:20

hotels or locations rallies handguns

25:23

were the most common weapon used identified

25:26

motives were notoriety

25:28

revenge idiosyncratic thinking

25:30

about the target hopes to be killed

25:32

interest killed interest about political change

25:35

and desires for money those

25:37

who wish notoriety or suicide by cop

25:40

were most likely to target someone

25:42

who was actually protected by the secret

25:44

service so there's actually some thought and

25:46

going into it like this is if i really

25:48

want to be taken out this is going to be the target

25:51

that actually can complete back so

25:53

those with an idiosyncratic belief

25:56

like the idea is that this

25:58

action is going to save the world or

26:00

it's going to it on to engage in some kind of

26:02

binge and sorta right or wrong or avengers

26:04

something they were more likely to

26:06

target a public figure or celebrity

26:09

interesting

26:10

i also found that there was no single

26:12

profile of the attacker

26:14

that probably sounds familiar to our audience

26:17

from other types of violent offenders

26:19

that we've covered for ages ranged from sixteen

26:21

to seventy three eighty

26:23

, percent were male and seventy seven

26:26

percent for whites whites were

26:28

single or never married and half were married

26:30

at least once almost has

26:32

had some college education and

26:34

over half for unemployed at the time of the

26:36

attack but those who targeted

26:39

secret service protect these

26:41

were more likely to actually be employed

26:44

full time thirty four percent had

26:46

no arrests history prior to the attack

26:49

and only twenty percent had a previous

26:51

offense for a violent crime and then

26:53

fifty six percent had prior fences

26:56

for nonviolent crimes the

26:58

majority of them

26:59

fifty six percent had never been and car

27:02

the right before that's really fascinating

27:04

a me and i and we gotta stay on track

27:06

year but that's something that we could really really

27:08

drill down into about especially

27:11

in today's world of instigation by

27:13

shit posting online about someone

27:15

with a very low background incidents

27:17

i found that fascinating but let's

27:20

look at what they found in the study

27:22

when it comes specifically to the area

27:25

of mental health sixty percent of

27:27

these individuals had had some contact

27:29

mental health services at some point

27:31

in their life but less

27:34

than one fourth of that sixty percent

27:36

had contact with mental help in the

27:38

year leading up to the attacks in

27:40

less than half those incidents be a fender

27:42

was delusional at the time of

27:45

attack the most common no health issue

27:47

was depression which came out at

27:49

forty four percent and also forty

27:51

one percent of them had them had

27:53

of suicidal threats and

27:56

he did something really great when you are organizing

27:59

these notes as you put threats in

28:01

air quotes or i'm putting it in your questions and quotation

28:03

marks because there's a whole world within

28:05

that term then we as clinicians

28:08

use we think about gesture we

28:10

think about id asian and people

28:12

outside the realm of mental health may not

28:14

be able to discern as

28:17

succinctly as we need to and are

28:19

line of evaluation so

28:21

very important they're very few of them

28:23

suffered from auditory hallucinations

28:25

but forty three percent had a history of

28:27

delusional thinking so we talked about this

28:29

in the past when we talk that gang stalking

28:31

there's the idea that you can have internal

28:34

stimuli which is tearing things

28:36

seeing things but you can also have really

28:38

significantly altered sought

28:41

and i'll leave systems and the belief that you're

28:43

being persecuted and you can have that

28:46

completely to the exception of having any kind

28:48

of auditory hallucinations so while

28:50

again was to say that while few

28:52

suffer from auditory hallucinations forty

28:55

three percent of these perpetrators

28:57

for potential perpetrators had

29:00

a history of delusional thinking over two thirds

29:03

had , identifiable grievance

29:05

at the time of the attack and almost

29:08

all of them had a history of significant

29:10

grievances which talked about that recently

29:13

in want to bother episode apps arboretum and

29:15

collecting of grievances right it's

29:17

a very big deal over half of these

29:19

had a history of harassing other people

29:22

so that's where it really gets interesting

29:24

and assorted like some anti social

29:26

qualities of of violating the rights

29:29

of others even if the violation is

29:31

merging into their personal space and

29:34

or merging into arguments

29:36

challenging the or maybe it doesn't come

29:38

to to action but

29:40

you can be just as frightening when you're

29:43

forcing you're belief system more your

29:45

friends your assault by verbal means also

29:48

over half had half history of harassing

29:50

other people and the vast majority were described

29:52

as social isolates

29:55

classic as like that term social iceland

29:57

or other because it's it actually

30:00

speaks to

30:02

scripted quality is rather than glorifying

30:05

qualities like lone wolf frame

30:07

and trying to move away from very much so

30:09

interesting and this one blue me out the water

30:11

because i would not have expected this but the study

30:13

showed that not a lot of substance use was

30:15

indicated are present in the study

30:17

sample by a very surprised by that

30:20

yeah so

30:20

this a conclusive observation by the authors

30:23

they said quote each of these men and women at

30:25

some point came to see an attack

30:27

of a prominent percent of public status

30:29

as a solution or a way out

30:32

of there

30:32

the planets so it's all

30:34

and it started all over the place that the

30:37

because there is no profile we can't say

30:39

like oh man this age with the

30:41

know these characteristics the demographics

30:43

is who were looking at i think we're

30:45

starting to look at the type of mental

30:48

sinking that's going on and

30:51

we're going to dive into a little bit more with this

30:53

relatively new or term and

30:55

that's i minutes and of geek out over

30:58

a little bit here but it's gonna i

31:00

think it's going to clear some things up because it

31:02

really did for me when it's when we're looking

31:04

at something that we feel like doesn't

31:06

quite fit into delusional

31:08

thinking are not quite like obsessive

31:11

the campaign all of those point

31:14

lot of but what is it yeah

31:16

so we

31:17

you have dr reid malloy

31:19

to save us add some other people that came

31:21

up with this wonderful concept

31:24

so this does drive a lot of violent behavior

31:26

and one that we have seen emerge very recently

31:28

with a lot of the political turmoil

31:31

over the last two years we did

31:33

talk about this on a previous

31:35

live stream when we talked about overvalued

31:38

beliefs with again or friend

31:40

doctors on dilatory so this

31:43

is all gonna come mainly from an article

31:45

it put out and twenty nine team from dr

31:47

reid malloy and forensic psychiatrist

31:50

to hear remind and doctor robert

31:52

power and they're really laying

31:55

out a type of thinking that

31:57

doesn't sit with obsessions that

31:59

also doesn't

31:59

that weird psychosis are delusional

32:02

disorder that we seem to

32:04

see driving

32:05

my went be

32:06

here again this is just fascinating

32:09

that you know these esteemed

32:11

professionals who really know their stuff

32:13

are coming up with this concept that is

32:15

based on data that's been pulled so

32:18

this is what makes me call them st read

32:20

malloy can be so good at what he does so

32:22

are mine and his peers and twenty eighteen

32:25

in this article defined he obese

32:27

as and i'm quoting from the paper a belief

32:30

is one that is shared by others

32:32

in a person's cultural religious or

32:34

sub cultural group they believe

32:36

is often relished amplified

32:38

and defended by the possessor

32:41

of the belief and should be differentiated

32:43

from an obsession or delusion

32:46

the belief grows more dominant overtime

32:49

more refined and more resilient to

32:51

challenge thinking becomes very

32:53

simplistic binary

32:55

an absolute the individual

32:57

has an intense emotional commitment

33:00

to the believe and may carry

33:02

out a violent behavior in it's service

33:04

so it would be very easy for me as

33:06

someone that didn't do this research you know to use

33:09

my clinical atm indigo oh it's delusional

33:11

and you're just kind of water it down or

33:14

put it in that category and what they're doing here

33:16

is like know we're going to car about what

33:18

we can see as significantly different

33:20

from just a run of the mill delusion our

33:23

paranoid id a son so to recap

33:25

all those important points it is a belief

33:27

that is one shared by others

33:30

relished amplified and defended simple

33:32

absolute binary no room

33:34

for thinking in a gray what we call all the time

33:36

here concrete think black

33:39

and white and king also intense

33:41

emotional commitment it becomes the

33:43

focus it becomes the passion

33:46

and sort of the driver for

33:48

this individual and it may

33:50

very well lead to violence because

33:52

the majority of year be holding people

33:54

are not violent intersects

33:56

mary lead to violence yes

33:59

underlined

33:59

told for sure

34:01

so i think these points the bullet

34:03

points he just recaps should be

34:05

turned on some light bulbs for people that

34:08

we didn't quite know what to call things

34:10

and for me what comes to mind is she went

34:12

on right like this isn't just

34:14

one person with this

34:16

crazy while delusion this is

34:18

actually shared by other people your

34:20

head super intense people very

34:23

emotionally committed to it and there is

34:25

no talk and amount of it naturally

34:27

the he and it gives them a sense of entitlement

34:29

and grandiosity like on the wind

34:33

is the holder in this information that absolutely

34:35

applies in this paradigm as well

34:38

yeah yeah so extreme

34:40

overvalued believe see below are really

34:42

hitting the nail on the head i think there's also

34:44

a t emotional component here that we

34:47

see and is a good acronym for

34:49

remembering it it's and com d

34:51

a n c o n d

34:53

i and it's a combination of three things

34:55

anger contempt and discuss so

34:58

contempt we know anger as contempt

35:00

being oh i

35:02

see this person or this thing this

35:04

beneath consideration or they're

35:06

worthless they're worthless deserving of scorn

35:09

and then discuss just this feeling of revulsion

35:11

are strong disapproval and

35:14

research has found that this is a very dangerous

35:16

combination one we haven't touched on before

35:18

hear that sumo at all found

35:21

that when all three of these

35:23

things are presents it's actually predictive

35:26

of political violence so

35:29

you don't have these he obese

35:31

that may lead someone to be violence

35:34

but then you bring this emotional peace term

35:37

woven with the cognitive place and

35:39

a can actually predict political violence

35:41

in that's you most

35:42

research though i found this

35:44

completely fascinating because as i was reading

35:47

that it really reminded

35:49

me of that those three elements

35:51

are absolutely part of john

35:54

dot mans key predictors in whether

35:56

a relationship will last and and

35:58

couples therapy and let me tell if you're hitting

36:00

those horsemen of the apocalypse if you

36:02

are constantly angry your contemptuous

36:05

of your partner and you have discussed about

36:07

them basically there is no chance for

36:09

that relationship like there's possible

36:11

if that sundering levels you know in his some

36:13

therapy but chances are very very

36:15

low if that sort of your baseline for

36:18

treating other people you're not going to

36:20

have a lot of success in that particular relationship

36:22

so tying it back to what we

36:24

said earlier about people being social

36:26

isolates will this is one of the reasons

36:28

that their social iceland is because that

36:30

grandiosity that narcissism allows

36:33

them to feel that other people situations

36:35

things are beneath or consideration

36:38

and their sorted disgusted with a gun

36:40

very interesting how it ties in that emotional

36:42

component that you're talking about so when it does

36:44

go to violence we're seeing this evolution

36:47

from fixation to identification

36:50

so you become your identity becomes

36:52

intricately enmeshed in

36:55

this obsession with the succession

36:57

with the spot with this binary thinking you might

36:59

remember those warning behaviors from our school

37:01

shooter episode last month again he

37:03

goes from what they're thinking about

37:06

baby com in terms of someone who feels

37:08

propelled to carry out an assassination

37:10

they may go from thinking that they're undervalued

37:13

and misunderstood and evolve

37:15

into someone who thinks that they have

37:17

to be to wants to show the world

37:20

what wrong has been done to them

37:23

fascinating so this idea

37:25

of extreme overvalued believes would certainly

37:28

drive threat assessments when a taste is coming to the

37:30

attention of mental health law enforcement or even

37:32

private assessors because it's gonna give you insight

37:34

into their grievance and how to intervene

37:36

or get their needs met in a much

37:39

more healthy way as possible

37:41

it you can actually mandate treatment

37:43

for somebody like this that's been deferred

37:46

or diverted into madame treatment

37:48

yeah i yeah i definitely you know in our school

37:50

shooters episode we talk about the off ramp project

37:53

and defined with the kiddos an earlier

37:55

you can intervene the better but as

37:57

they get older and these are really ingrained

37:59

you're right and to get becomes more of a challenge

38:02

yeah we have the as part of

38:04

my day job and it's being

38:07

integrated into more mental health

38:09

programs around the country is what we call pass

38:11

p a t h e which is providing alternatives

38:14

to hinder extremism fans this the idea

38:16

of where can you intervene along

38:18

that path that will redirect

38:21

all of that sort of unbridled

38:24

emotional energy to be heading towards

38:26

extremism

38:27

yeah i just want to add here

38:29

this is very recent there's a very new study

38:31

that was presented at a conference just a couple of

38:33

weeks ago that sound that that identification

38:36

warning behavior

38:38

oh i have to be the one to do something about

38:40

this their research found that it

38:42

significantly differentiated

38:45

those who had acted out violently at

38:47

the january six event at the capital

38:49

from those who didn't act out violently

38:51

so that was they i kept

38:53

a don't think that published yet it's just was presented

38:56

at a conference preliminarily so

38:58

wow that's a lot a lot of fake

39:00

south has he very excited we're

39:02

going to get into our cases

39:04

it might figure breach to

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hear from our sponsors the remains of for

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the com and employees

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and want to listen to me and a beginning

39:27

hi i'm allie county a journalist and recently license

39:29

private investigator i shadowed him as

39:31

he put together evidence against a man implied

39:33

hedrick the convicted killer just really some

39:36

i'm going after him out on

39:38

one level

39:38

during the course of the investigation i searched

39:40

to think that ten might not be the hero me

39:43

i am games

39:45

and it becomes increasingly clear that will do anything

39:47

the do what he wants

39:49

we started off as an excavation the past

39:51

discerning to present tense thriller when

39:53

it which i feared for my life

39:54

knows exactly where she lives of their quota

39:56

phone numbers every game

39:58

media this is

39:59

the only coming may twenty third

40:01

where every day if i can i give

40:03

your story this are so my daughter's murderer

40:08

welcome back every one sell

40:10

the u s presidents

40:12

you know that one in four presidents

40:14

has been the target and of assassins gun

40:16

since the founding of our country for

40:19

us presidents have been murdered while serving

40:21

in office can you name all of i'm scott

40:24

no idea either abraham lincoln

40:26

a source of the other day we know until we

40:28

start doing the notes the spelling only one either because

40:30

that's okay that's okay so

40:32

in eating sixty five

40:34

president abraham lincoln was murdered by john

40:37

wilkes booth was sitting in the balcony

40:39

of the ford's theater in washington d c

40:41

with an actor and a confederate sympathizer

40:44

who had originally planned on kidnapping

40:46

the president in order to demand the

40:48

release of confederate prisoners and

40:51

see had an extreme overvalued

40:54

belief that ended up

40:56

influencing his actions

40:57

yeah i love that a young when we talk

40:59

about our vintage cases when you can go back

41:02

and you can look at enough data and this is

41:04

one that even as old as it is

41:06

there's a lot of data on boots background

41:09

for them to be able to come up with this another one

41:11

president garfield who was killed and eighteen

41:13

eighty one as the president was arriving

41:15

at a baltimore train station writer and

41:17

attorney charles j ghetto

41:20

shot him twice one bullet

41:22

grazed the president shoulder and the other

41:24

pierced his back for the next eleven we've garfield

41:26

endured medical malpractice before

41:28

dying of complications caused by infections

41:31

which were contracted by the doctors

41:33

relentless probing of his wound

41:35

unsterilized years and instruments yeah

41:38

to remember that this was before antibiotics

41:40

it was medicine was really brutally don men

41:42

sad sir i know it's fingers

41:45

out of my last book or at

41:47

least was some he had survived

41:49

for a total of seventy nine days after

41:51

being shot then and ninety

41:53

no one president william mckinley

41:56

was murdered on september six ninety no one

41:58

at the temple of music and buffalo new york

42:00

he was attending the pan american exposition

42:03

at that time he was shot twice

42:05

in the abdomen by leon show

42:07

goals and i anarchist who was armed

42:09

with a thirty two caliber revolver concealed

42:12

underneath a handkerchief president william

42:15

mckinley survive for a few days before

42:17

also so coming to our

42:19

produces confection this one with

42:21

gangrene not a good way to go

42:23

incredibly painful lots of fevers

42:26

probably was delirious and and credible

42:28

pain at the end

42:30

yeah my goodness and then we have

42:32

president john f kennedy assassination

42:36

of united states president john

42:38

f kennedy took place at twelve thirty pm

42:41

on friday november twenty second nineteen

42:43

sixty three in dallas texas

42:45

during dallas presidential motorcade and

42:47

dealey plaza kennedy was writing

42:49

with his wife jacqueline well as texas

42:51

gov john connolly and connelly's

42:53

wife when he was fatally shot

42:56

by leave harvey oswald from the sixth

42:58

floor of the texas school book

43:00

depository alright so here we're turning

43:02

to lee harvey oswald is our any

43:06

and again to all you conspiracy

43:09

theorists or covering the many alternative

43:11

theories to jfk murder for

43:13

, profiling the first than here so

43:16

as to not make this like a twenty

43:18

hours long episodes so close

43:20

we can't do that now

43:22

we don't have we don't evaluations

43:25

an interview material with oswald because

43:27

he was shot and murdered days after he murdered

43:29

president kennedy so we are

43:32

going with a number of resources hear

43:34

some of them were conflicting by

43:36

it we've got some good some

43:39

some really good information about

43:41

how he grew up how

43:44

his mindset sort

43:46

of started to go in the direction

43:48

of these extreme overvalued beliefs

43:50

so beliefs think we have we have amount to work care but

43:52

let's start with his childhood lee oswald

43:54

was born on october eighteenth nineteenth

43:56

thirty nine and new orleans louisiana to

43:58

marguerite as wall he had two older

44:01

half brothers and his father actually

44:03

died of a heart attack two months before

44:05

leave was born following her husband's

44:07

death marguerite sense oswald

44:10

and his two older brothers to live

44:12

in an orphanage once lee was born she was

44:14

just like a cannot do this with three boys

44:16

so he was

44:19

initially pass around to some family

44:22

members and then he did and that

44:24

going to the orphanage himself and

44:26

we have some interesting observations

44:28

from his brothers who have been interviewed

44:31

over the years and his one brother robert

44:33

describes their mother marguerite

44:35

as very domineering and very

44:38

high strung not that we're going to do any mom

44:40

shaming for like creating a monster

44:42

anything that's not what we're doing we just want to give

44:44

you a perspective from these boys

44:46

views at the time but he felt

44:49

that she also just had this

44:51

sense of entitlement where she

44:53

always thought she was meant for something more

44:56

like see wanted to be somebody

44:58

and he really feels

45:00

as a much older brother that this

45:03

mentality that passed on to leave

45:06

and he noted that you other

45:08

people would also describe his mother as

45:11

someone who voiced that her life

45:13

wasn't fair and she

45:15

got dealt got dealt hands kind of had

45:17

this narrative going on as they would come in

45:19

and out of her life when they were young so

45:21

at some point lead gets reunited

45:23

with his mother

45:24

and just li not the other

45:26

it and they move to new york

45:29

where his one of his older

45:31

half brothers is now and adults and they end up moving

45:33

in with him and li is described

45:35

as being kind of mom's little companion

45:38

see would often tell him that he was

45:41

better and brighter than all the other

45:43

kids but then wasn't really left with

45:45

any guidance of like what to do with that

45:47

she's kind of pumping em up with words but

45:49

then was very absent from his life because

45:51

she was working but then she would also tell him

45:54

hey you know your know your than the other

45:56

kids in your more fragile than the other kids

45:58

and then kind of

45:59

the permanent place where he was really like

46:02

chemed and not adventurous

46:04

like other

46:05

in his age

46:07

so she grew up really

46:09

soul in an angry and

46:11

a little bit of entitlement going on there a

46:13

neighbor even reported that he

46:15

was vicious just for what

46:17

appeared to be the start of it like you would stand

46:20

on the side of the neighborhood and just throw

46:22

rocks help brock said other kids

46:24

to kind of see what would happen there is another

46:26

incident where see through

46:29

a nice at his brother and

46:32

the mom just dismiss it and

46:35

she had also threatened his mom with a knife

46:37

while they were living in new york and after

46:39

that incident his brothers did you guys gotta go

46:42

like this is escalating to

46:44

a place where i don't need you living

46:46

in my house anymore so

46:49

big it up and they move back

46:51

to dallas he was again essentially

46:53

kind of left to himself because she was working long

46:55

hours he starts ditching school

46:57

she gets placed in detention hall a lot

47:00

so much so that he actually gets assigned

47:02

a social worker because he's truant from school

47:04

so much and there are some recorded

47:06

interviews with the social worker see

47:09

is so astute in her

47:11

profile of him and what

47:13

he was really going to at the time it is

47:15

it's really interesting to watch her talk but

47:17

she described him has an

47:19

emotionally detached boy and

47:22

she says she gave off the feeling

47:25

the kid that

47:26

he knew nobody gave a darn about him

47:28

so he just kind of did his own thing which is

47:31

very sad when he think about it but he also felt

47:33

they had better things to do than go to school and

47:35

see a social worker went on to state

47:37

that he was very emotionally frozen

47:40

and never had a trusting relationship with any

47:42

one an since he

47:45

hung around with no one and

47:47

made his own meals she said he had

47:49

no and most no resources

47:51

at all he doesn't have any one a model for

47:53

him

47:53

oh absolutely very

47:55

sad what you're describing i

47:58

will say this because i'm in a circle back or one to

48:00

it is and we're definitely not

48:02

going to be doing mom shaming but we are

48:04

going to be talking about influences

48:06

that parents can have on their kids because this

48:09

is a clear example of an individual

48:12

who was really at a deficit for

48:14

some of the most basic the

48:16

needs of a child he no need to get

48:18

away from the i the old school idea discuss

48:20

the printers and a mother that influences this

48:22

is always blame the mom when there are plenty

48:24

of examples out there of crappy dad's

48:26

the do the same thing glasses so let's

48:29

talk about his early adulthood

48:31

and kind of at a press pass have been fighting

48:33

boxes falling on me in this

48:35

the thought that they're attacking him

48:36

yeah it was a woman that drowned

48:39

and like up in portland or something she had

48:41

as sounds like a tiny closet sound studio

48:43

that she did voice overs ah

48:45

of flash flood and she drowned

48:47

and her studio was filed

48:49

suit had a block the door and filled

48:51

up with water and that terrible all my guide

48:53

don't drown and boxes for immigrants

48:56

so let's talk about oswald's

48:58

early adulthood he gets interested in global

49:00

political issues when he picks up a leaflet

49:02

on the streets of new york that had to do

49:04

with the trial of the rosenbergs

49:06

which was a huge huge deal the

49:09

rosenbergs were american citizens

49:11

the were convicted of spying on behalf of

49:13

the soviet union for it ended up and them

49:15

having being put to death for treason this

49:18

is when he starts setting socialist literature

49:20

and before the truancy officer could

49:22

take him into custody again keen as

49:24

mother high taylor back to new orleans

49:26

pay unfortunately move into a high crime

49:29

area and he starts to identify as marxist

49:32

even trying to join a local socialists

49:34

youth league so a just after turning

49:36

seventeen be enlist in the marines as

49:38

as and nothing nineteen fifty six he qualified

49:41

very quickly as a marksman and a sharpshooter

49:43

with a rifle interesting bernie the

49:45

conspiracy theories as fear is that

49:47

when save somebody else he's qualified as a marksman

49:50

and a sharpshooter key then gets deployed

49:52

to japan working on radar technology

49:54

and his peers reported and he

49:56

would openly talked about his marxist

49:58

ideas as marx belief system can

50:00

he would talk really poorly or

50:02

the quote unquote capitalist society

50:05

in which they were living felt while in the service

50:07

he was found to be in possession of an unauthorized

50:10

firearm he was very angry

50:12

and resentful he challenge to a

50:14

sergeant who disciplines him to

50:16

fight very dumb you don't you

50:18

don't in the military clearly don't do that the military

50:21

this than lead to a second court martial

50:23

the first one being for the firearm and

50:25

he was sent to the brig and then

50:27

it's at this time but he applied for

50:30

early discharge and a passport both

50:32

were granted and he high tailed it back

50:34

to new orleans so very very quick

50:36

ending to his military

50:38

the rear for remember how you know every time

50:40

we talk about psycho pass people say

50:43

like when they make perfect the

50:45

operatives in the military and this is

50:47

an exact reason as to why

50:49

they

50:50

they absolutely don't currently

50:52

i'd already se is right because

50:54

the rules don't apply to them exactly

50:57

so let's let's

50:59

fast forward as a little bit and

51:01

in october nineteen fifty nine

51:03

he travels through europe

51:06

and eventually lands in moscow

51:08

it's unclear if he hired a guide

51:11

or if one is just a sign to certain

51:13

people entering the country automatically

51:15

by she gets this guide he's taking

51:17

him around to see the sights and moscow

51:19

she picks them up every morning drives them around

51:22

but on the second day of heard driving him

51:24

around the city he tells her that he

51:26

doesn't approve of the american way of life he

51:28

tells her that he is a communist

51:30

and that he wants to defect

51:33

to the soviet union so a

51:35

how convenient sees kind of a go between

51:37

between him and the kgb and

51:40

they allow him to stay for some time

51:42

and this is likely because they want to observe

51:44

him and then maybe see a little bit of what he

51:46

has to offer them this this american

51:49

former soldier that wants to defect

51:51

and ultimately they realize

51:53

that he's pretty useless and they tell

51:56

him that he has to leave the country so

51:58

li as nights that with this the

52:00

next day when the guide is supposed to meet

52:02

him he's not in the lobby of his hotel

52:05

and she goes up with security to

52:07

do a welfare check and they find him

52:09

in the bathtub unconscious having

52:12

cut his wrists and seemingly

52:15

attempting suicide because he

52:17

was gonna get kicked out of the country and

52:20

had to go back home to this

52:22

way of life that he vehemently

52:25

disagreed with well the cuts

52:27

were very minor so they to

52:29

them to the hospital system up and then

52:31

he gets transferred to the psych ward

52:33

so he's i'm a psych ward and they

52:36

are about to release him and the kgb

52:38

cause of the psych ward and says no

52:41

we want you to hold him for a little bit longer so

52:43

they hold them and to some ttp

52:46

officers command they compensate

52:48

all of his medical paperwork and then

52:50

day with him away to essentially

52:52

kind of assess him for further

52:55

counter intelligence information they end up

52:57

putting him up in a hotel and after three

52:59

days she's in his hotel

53:01

kind of waiting for them to come to him and

53:04

he get antsy and see

53:06

those to the us embassy can

53:09

, desk agent or written letter

53:11

has it's all right now instead of just like saying

53:13

what he has to say you know he's very carefully

53:15

written this letter that

53:18

says hey i came here

53:20

i intended to defects and

53:22

i have a plot to give up information

53:24

for my time and japan basically

53:27

like i know these radar codes and

53:29

i'm in a give up so this

53:32

then from the embassy group

53:34

the us military and they go okay

53:36

the motor seems to cope

53:37

whatever might

53:39

try but the kgb

53:42

there are now they're also unimpressed again

53:44

by age they want to keep his

53:46

suicide attempt quiet because

53:49

they don't really wanted to turn into this weird international

53:51

scandal to where the cure this american

53:53

comes to the fact that he wasn't really worth any

53:55

one time and others the suicide attempt

53:58

so they they kind of warner appease

54:00

him a little bit of the what they do as they say

54:02

you can say i'm a little know i think it's

54:04

really interesting i wonder and on

54:07

them during the as well look the kgb at

54:09

that time was actually was

54:11

really impressive like old

54:14

school pre will you know cold war

54:17

like psychological understanding

54:19

psychological understanding mean these are not these

54:21

were not incompetent people pray and

54:23

the idea that like it's

54:26

interesting just thinking of the position that they would be

54:28

and so he's made a suicidal gesture

54:30

which it's clear he really didn't intend to hurt himself

54:33

because they were minor wounds and

54:35

he made this completely inept current

54:38

to sort of show

54:40

himself as loyal to ask

54:42

maybe we can exploit his idiocy

54:44

for something go baby yeah

54:46

they're they're thinking the long game

54:48

there's actually a female politician

54:50

that advocated for him to stay

54:53

to kind of avoid any spotlight

54:55

coming on them but

54:57

yeah i do think a

54:59

worse psychologically a suits

55:01

you know in there were games

55:03

perhaps to were maybe they did think

55:05

we can exploit him or

55:07

okay now we kick him out like what is this rogue

55:11

guy gonna do now

55:11

right wanted to replications of of not

55:14

taking any action

55:15

yeah so

55:17

so anyway so he can say they

55:19

move into a much smaller city outside

55:22

of moscow a city called minsk

55:24

and they give them an apartment like

55:27

actually a really nice apartment which was kind of unheard

55:29

of you know everyone's living in poverty and

55:32

see ends up getting hooked up

55:34

with a job at like a local tv

55:36

factory but these are sort of leave him alone

55:38

that is gonna put him up and then like okay

55:41

similarly into life here and he quickly

55:43

realizes what the drab

55:45

daily life is like in the

55:47

soviet union she notes that

55:49

he makes money but he really has like know

55:52

where to spend this money you can't really

55:54

like go out and do fun things it's

55:57

it's it's like the drab is is

55:59

is the

55:59

the word for it usually starts

56:02

to have the

56:03

irrigation that the socialist lifestyle the

56:05

soviet union is not when he pictured it to

56:07

be he does make some friends at the local

56:09

college and ends up

56:11

teaching english to somebody and

56:13

then he has this little circle of

56:15

friends where he goes to a party and hands

56:17

up meeting this very beautiful

56:19

woman young lady named marina

56:22

and marina pretty smitten with him he

56:24

tells them tall tales about himself that is

56:26

impressive to her and him just being of foreigners

56:29

kind of interesting and intriguing and

56:31

they end up getting married so

56:34

they get married they have a daughter

56:36

and then they end up petitioning to return to the

56:38

united states it took about

56:41

eighteen months for both the us in the soviet union

56:43

to say okay yes we agree to let you guys

56:45

go but they say head

56:47

back and he anticipates

56:50

that has returned to the u s

56:52

when he gets off that plane that there are gonna be

56:54

reporters waiting to meet him and

56:57

want to hear from him so he

56:59

prepares a statement to be able

57:01

to read to them but there's no one there

57:03

when he steps off the plane and he just can't

57:05

understand why they don't want to talk to

57:07

someone who defected to the soviet

57:09

union

57:10

yeah well that's also interesting

57:12

to there's a couple different ways of looking at it without

57:14

going down the road of conspiracy

57:16

theory but it could also be that

57:19

the us and they absolutely

57:22

a boston and like absolutely no reporters

57:24

nobody goes to this it's a dead issue

57:27

yeah that that kind of amazon are

57:29

used to go on all the time so anyway

57:32

he's now back in the us both

57:34

he and marina move him at least brother in fort

57:36

worth texas the f b i interviewed him

57:38

about a timeless of ian t

57:40

was reported to be really aggressive

57:42

and ended the interview after becoming

57:44

upset that they had asked if

57:47

he was a spy and even if he was

57:49

us cia operative like he

57:51

like that be absolutely did not like

57:53

as accusations and i

57:54

don't you don't know that

57:56

mm you know that would

57:58

you try to gas lighting no hand

58:00

marina move for fort worth of dallas and sixty

58:03

two and it's around this time that he starts to become more

58:05

outwardly angry he begins picking fights

58:07

at work and home eventually

58:10

becoming physically abusive to marina

58:12

it escalated very quickly and became more

58:15

intense and frequent in just a matter of

58:17

months so his behavior

58:19

becomes even more bizarre when he creates

58:21

an alias for himself by the name of

58:23

alec adele and he opens

58:25

a secret post office box under that

58:27

name he starts getting communist and

58:29

socialist magazines delivered there as well

58:32

he's starting to long

58:34

to be more than just a student and a reader

58:36

he starts to become fixated on

58:38

major general george walker who

58:40

was very public about the need to stop

58:42

fidel castro and is communist

58:45

regime in cuba li

58:47

believe that walker was a dangerous fascist

58:49

who should be stopped before he became politically

58:52

powerful oswald saw him as

58:54

the next hitler and on april tenth

58:56

nineteen sixty three plea attempted

58:58

to assassinate general walker by

59:00

firing a cheap italian rifle round

59:03

into walkers home he stalked

59:05

as home photographed at found an

59:07

area in which to stash the rifle and

59:09

then created maps of the entire surroundings

59:12

walker survived and it was not revealed

59:15

that li was the shooter until after

59:17

jfk murder although he had confessed

59:19

to marina the night of the shooting the

59:22

you know about that that he hired them know i

59:24

target

59:24

assassination attempts yeah

59:26

joe practice be no have practicing

59:29

makes him even a little bit of an outlier

59:31

around some of the other attempts that we

59:33

are looking at in that paradigm of

59:35

oh be so leave found himself

59:37

fired from his job at the photo lab and

59:40

very short time after his attempt on walker's

59:42

i see moved very quickly with

59:44

marina taking their baby to house

59:46

in new orleans t learned of a large

59:48

number of cuban exiles that lived in the

59:50

new orleans area and this enraged him

59:52

and sealed more focused towards

59:55

communist efforts he went on tv

59:57

and radio as an outspoken marxists

1:00:00

stop short of saying he was a communist

1:00:02

cuban started handing out pamphlets advocating

1:00:05

for the usa to stay out of cuba matters

1:00:08

and he was confronted by cubans on the street and

1:00:10

they were all arrested for disturbing the peace stoke

1:00:13

there was also this incident we're to professional

1:00:15

anti communists personalities got lead a

1:00:17

kimono live radio show exposing

1:00:20

his past about failing in an attempt

1:00:22

to defect the soviet union and

1:00:24

really grilling and embarrassing him

1:00:26

he was caught totally off guard

1:00:29

and that be and he opened a notebook

1:00:31

ask the interviewers for their names and addresses

1:00:33

and then glared at them as a last i

1:00:36

, on balls lasers his own

1:00:39

fairly got some balls balls then

1:00:41

in that past year he had been fired

1:00:43

from three jobs so another big factor

1:00:45

there that instability that inability to

1:00:48

maintain interpersonal relationships

1:00:50

and sort of a balance between

1:00:52

relationships with people so that you can do

1:00:55

whatever menial job you're working on we're not

1:00:57

in the certainly media weekly deal difficult personalities

1:00:59

and all aspects of class but clearly

1:01:02

this was a deficit in his character so

1:01:05

following that job loss

1:01:07

after job loss he would spend his days

1:01:09

in the wilderness shooting

1:01:11

his rifle or sitting on the porch was

1:01:13

house practicing reloading his rifle

1:01:15

and dry firing so doing

1:01:17

that very military training

1:01:20

exercise of quick loading

1:01:22

firing cloud fire probably

1:01:25

also practice taking it apart dissembling

1:01:27

at putting it back together back together his

1:01:29

wife of the scheme to hijack a plane and

1:01:31

fly to cuba to fight for castro

1:01:34

she last saw and then he just the idea

1:01:36

to jump on a bus to mexico in order to get

1:01:39

tumor he goes and tries to get obesity

1:01:41

cuba but he's met with many obstacles

1:01:43

and denied thankfully yeah

1:01:45

then he's very upset is shaking

1:01:48

and on the verge of tears and front of a constant

1:01:50

workers and this was just seven

1:01:52

months before his assassination of president kennedy

1:01:55

yeah there's a lot of unraveling

1:01:57

then i'm thing happening here like ice

1:02:01

just

1:02:03

about that transition point between

1:02:06

fixation and identification

1:02:09

for served like okay i'm not just

1:02:11

i don't is have like this belief about something

1:02:13

belief need to go and do something about it something

1:02:15

much so it is gonna jump gonna a bus and go

1:02:17

to mexico and try to get into cuba that way

1:02:19

and all these other things so now

1:02:21

he's back into that dallas with no

1:02:24

job or means to support his family

1:02:27

his wife was pregnant again

1:02:29

and she's living with the said

1:02:30

the of hers with their daughter

1:02:33

air so back in new orleans and

1:02:36

marinas friend that she is living with happens

1:02:39

to know someone who works at a school book

1:02:41

depository and ends

1:02:43

up getting li a job there

1:02:45

so t weird

1:02:47

he was saying in a rooming house in

1:02:49

dallas and he would work at his job and then he

1:02:51

would go back and visit marina

1:02:54

on the weekends and they would argue

1:02:56

constantly several accounts

1:02:58

state that he was

1:02:59

quite brutal to her and continue to

1:03:02

be abusive when he visited her

1:03:04

but definitely very emotionally

1:03:06

abusive so as he's living

1:03:08

in this rooming house back and dallas she's

1:03:11

living under his alias over

1:03:13

there and marina

1:03:15

would talk to him on the phone in

1:03:18

during the week when he wasn't visiting and

1:03:20

she relates her friend that she was really

1:03:22

worried about his mental state and i thought

1:03:24

this is so poignant she said quotes he lives in

1:03:26

a fantasy about being a great man

1:03:29

and it's it's

1:03:30

like he it

1:03:32

want to be something bigger than what

1:03:35

he is really make a difference in

1:03:37

not a good waved everyday

1:03:39

around him it sounds like a roommate a

1:03:42

roommate rooming house recalls the watching intently

1:03:44

as the news talks about

1:03:46

kennedy's are coming visits and talks

1:03:49

about the route that the motorcades gonna

1:03:51

take and then two days before the assassination

1:03:53

he goes to visit marina in

1:03:56

new orleans with her friends and c

1:03:59

basically

1:03:59

bad her please join me in dallas

1:04:02

things will be different and see

1:04:05

emphatically says no she just

1:04:07

can't do anymore says another baby coming

1:04:10

and , feel safe with her

1:04:12

friends so he spends the night there at

1:04:14

a friend's house and then his

1:04:17

rifle is in the friends garage so

1:04:19

the next morning he retreats that an

1:04:22

kisses his kids go by and least one

1:04:24

hundred and seventy dollars on the nightstand

1:04:26

as well as his wedding ring and

1:04:29

marina noted that that's probably

1:04:31

all of the money the had hundred and seventy dollars

1:04:33

with dollars lot so that was probably it

1:04:35

on november twenty second nineteen sixty three

1:04:38

he those who work at the school book depository

1:04:40

as normal the office was buzzing

1:04:43

with the anticipation of the motorcade going

1:04:45

by and he goes up to the sixth floor

1:04:47

and spends the morning stealing

1:04:49

book orders as usual and

1:04:51

then around noon his coworkers

1:04:53

went to lunch and this

1:04:56

is when will you take the opportunity to

1:04:58

screen off a corner window

1:05:00

with boxes so it's like stuffed

1:05:03

boxes that if you were sent

1:05:05

a on the other side of them you wouldn't see him

1:05:07

at the window and observers

1:05:10

on the road said at some point before

1:05:12

the motorcade came through they saw a man

1:05:14

with saw rifle in the window on the sixth

1:05:16

floor but everyone just assumed

1:05:18

that it was part of the president

1:05:20

the protection service and no one says

1:05:22

anything and then it's

1:05:24

for the motorcade to come by and

1:05:27

three by four shots are fired

1:05:29

from the sixth floor in about eight

1:05:31

seconds killing president kennedy

1:05:33

and injuring texas gov john

1:05:36

connolly after this happens

1:05:38

li is observed first in

1:05:40

the lunchroom appearing very

1:05:42

com a , officer

1:05:44

com then an even stopped to talk

1:05:46

briefly with him but let's him though they

1:05:48

kind of the kind of russian

1:05:50

and say like okay is

1:05:53

is only one here that doesn't belong sort

1:05:55

of thing and the manager like looks around and says

1:05:57

no everyone here belongs

1:05:59

so the teachers opportunity to

1:06:01

flee the depository on flat

1:06:03

keyboards the bus but then he gets really

1:06:05

nervous because the busquets soft and traffic so

1:06:07

he gets off the bus and he gets

1:06:09

in a taxi he has a taxi take

1:06:12

him to his rooming house where

1:06:14

he briefly the revolver stuff

1:06:16

that in the front of his waistband and now

1:06:18

he's on foot again and at this point

1:06:21

he's walking the streets of dallas she's

1:06:23

confronted by police officer jd

1:06:25

tibbets and leave

1:06:27

murders him with his revolver

1:06:29

right there on the street and now he is really

1:06:32

on the run because there are witnesses to this

1:06:34

t runs into a theater but

1:06:37

witnesses and up pointing him out

1:06:39

to the police and the police go

1:06:41

in have the theater turn on all the lights

1:06:44

and bears least sitting in one of

1:06:46

the theaters t tries

1:06:48

to draw his weapon but it takes

1:06:51

seven officers to tackle him

1:06:53

and take him and a testy the whole

1:06:55

time he's now screaming police brutality

1:06:57

and things of that nature now we don't

1:06:59

really get any more firmly himself

1:07:02

because he was sought right he was

1:07:04

murdered himself while in police custody

1:07:06

just two days after all of this happen

1:07:08

oh

1:07:09

conjecture here but least

1:07:12

seems like he is hitting many

1:07:14

of the items and many of the traits that

1:07:16

the research identify that we talked

1:07:18

about this episode already is male

1:07:20

he's why he likely suffered from

1:07:23

depression definitely a social

1:07:25

isolates cause trouble with others

1:07:27

kiss ass behavior the predator future behavior

1:07:29

he has another assassination attempt

1:07:32

that occurred before this plus

1:07:34

all of the extreme overvalued believe

1:07:36

i think what's really interesting and notable

1:07:39

is that this was done from a distance

1:07:41

with a rifle and you see so

1:07:44

many assassinations of public figure

1:07:47

is happening up close for they sort

1:07:49

of pushed through the crowd with a handgun

1:07:52

so just i don't know that means just interesting but

1:07:54

with his background it totally makes them

1:07:56

yeah and ironically a mean

1:07:58

to deserve a weird the say is

1:08:00

for somebody who basically sailed

1:08:03

it so many things he was actually a

1:08:05

good marksman he now he was trained in the military

1:08:07

but clearly his lack of social

1:08:09

skills and insight into his behaviors

1:08:12

prevented him from developing past

1:08:15

this scared kid that dino

1:08:17

then defends that with her as hard

1:08:20

armor of narcissism your

1:08:22

and before going to conjecture today

1:08:24

and to what we know about his upbringing

1:08:27

which is way more information than

1:08:29

we would with other people and some of our may be

1:08:31

mentored crime episodes to i can

1:08:33

identify some things that that clearly pop

1:08:35

out for me specifically in the

1:08:37

sort of the understanding of a caesar adverse

1:08:40

child experiences me he definitely

1:08:42

had a traumatic childhood lack of support

1:08:44

you know limited engagement with his bio

1:08:46

family and a significant

1:08:48

amount of time spent in the

1:08:51

care of institutions so display

1:08:53

the groundwork for other factors to have a significant

1:08:55

effect on him later in life his mom

1:08:58

does appear to be a person

1:09:00

that holds the victim stance like you know she feels

1:09:02

like she does a , hand

1:09:04

and jumps out to me

1:09:07

because someone who

1:09:09

inappropriately crosses boundaries with

1:09:11

their child about complaints and

1:09:13

using still even you use the word

1:09:15

that he was described by as stepbrother

1:09:17

as his mom's companion yeah which is basically

1:09:20

a stand and for a husband so she's

1:09:22

possibly dumping all of this high

1:09:24

level emotional processing stuff that he's just

1:09:26

not capable of understanding but

1:09:29

what a child will do as they will take on

1:09:31

some of that some kids are incredibly resilient

1:09:33

and they'll figure it out really quick of like oh my

1:09:35

mom's off and i just need to compartmentalize

1:09:38

that he probably was a result of

1:09:40

very very poor boundaries and what would i would

1:09:43

call a very in mass relationship

1:09:45

because of her poor boundaries

1:09:48

so look mom is also described

1:09:50

the side see yourself as a victim that

1:09:52

see dispenses throughout her life

1:09:55

and arab and entitlement for herself and

1:09:57

for oswald to that air of entitlement

1:09:59

with on any real support

1:10:01

for an expansive view of self starts

1:10:04

to need this possibility of narcissism

1:10:07

here which is very much

1:10:09

in line with this whole paradigm that

1:10:12

we're talking about these what the ob

1:10:14

ease with the patients with the the

1:10:16

idea that there is something special

1:10:18

about me because the real fear underlying

1:10:21

all that is there's nothing special about

1:10:23

me and i have no special skill right he's trying

1:10:25

i'm going to all that blackhall exactly

1:10:27

and he's working overtime and

1:10:29

as a result the overtime work develops

1:10:32

into this grandiosity about

1:10:34

how the world should work

1:10:36

and how marxism should work and capitalism

1:10:38

should work and how communism should

1:10:40

work and this is a really

1:10:42

great example of great term that we haven't really

1:10:45

talked about really lot about year or two terms actually

1:10:47

narcissistic collapse nurses

1:10:49

is the collapse is when a narcissist is

1:10:51

faced with the absolute

1:10:55

objective ballad truth that they are

1:10:57

not legitimate dino a big example

1:10:59

of this in another podcast was dr

1:11:01

death doctor david dodge when he

1:11:03

is confronted in the court room by

1:11:05

all these surgical experts that

1:11:08

are saying he didn't know what

1:11:10

he was doing he was completely incompetent and the good

1:11:12

guy falls apart yeah i'd see

1:11:14

that happening here to see the he had

1:11:16

a lot of narcissistic collapse which

1:11:18

culminated in that suicidal gesture

1:11:21

because the picture of his life and russia had

1:11:23

fallen apart after had great deal of believe

1:11:26

that it went represent everything

1:11:28

asked can be he was gonna get gonna russian concerned

1:11:31

this icon of the american

1:11:33

who sees the light you know so really

1:11:35

a high level of narcissism with some clear

1:11:37

anti social qualities

1:11:39

the without going line by line with

1:11:41

a sort of the criteria for wet and

1:11:44

stream overvalued belief is a degree

1:11:46

do you have a lot that sits here we

1:11:49

have

1:11:50

the belief of his that was shared by others

1:11:52

right like even his sympathetic

1:11:55

communist views of the time but

1:11:58

city became fair

1:11:59

the binary and and

1:12:02

made this transition from this is

1:12:04

what is think to

1:12:06

the have to be the one to do something and ultimately

1:12:08

it it hits that last factor

1:12:11

of leading to violence so is

1:12:13

just a d c e o b is just such a smart

1:12:15

fit for so much even looking backwards

1:12:18

as relevant as it is today too

1:12:20

oh absolutely and their been

1:12:22

numerous us presidents who have had assassination

1:12:25

attempts for plots on their lives

1:12:27

this includes teddy roosevelt nineteen

1:12:29

twelve who was shot in the chest and rise who

1:12:31

is about to give a speech and as an experience

1:12:33

hunter an anatomist to correctly

1:12:35

concluded that since he was not coughing blood

1:12:37

the bullet and not reached as long as he

1:12:39

refused suggestions go to hospital

1:12:42

instead he delivered his scheduled speech

1:12:44

with blood seeping ended insured

1:12:46

let us dad the i mean we're

1:12:48

way to come across as a hero two years constituent

1:12:51

so let's turn to another presidential assassination

1:12:54

attempt and which we have we have information

1:12:56

on the perpetrator on march thirtieth nineteen

1:12:58

eighty one president reagan was leading the hilton

1:13:01

hotel in washington dc where

1:13:03

he had been talking to the american federation

1:13:05

of labor and congress of industrial organizations

1:13:07

several shots were fired rang out

1:13:10

very loudly and john hinckley

1:13:12

jr fired his twenty two caliber

1:13:14

revolver at the president and his security

1:13:17

team this is all caught on camera was

1:13:19

played over and over yeah on the news from

1:13:21

reagan was wounded when one of the bullet ricocheted

1:13:23

off of the limousine striking him hundred left

1:13:26

arm pit press secretary james brady

1:13:28

secret service agent timothy mccarthy

1:13:31

and policemen thomas to landy are

1:13:33

also wounded during shooting president

1:13:35

reagan's wounds were not noticed until he began

1:13:37

to cough up blood he was then taken to george washington

1:13:40

university hospital and after twelve days

1:13:42

in the hospital was able to return

1:13:44

to work out

1:13:45

the really when a bullet sir hugh under the armpit

1:13:47

that is no good that's right

1:13:49

into the lungs right into the heart and

1:13:52

here we have him opposite of roosevelt

1:13:55

coughing up blood so that sounds very

1:13:57

serious during the trial

1:13:59

john hinckley jr there was a lot

1:14:02

of attention given to his

1:14:04

strange relief that preceded

1:14:06

his actions and essentially acted

1:14:08

as a motive for attempting to assassinate

1:14:11

president ronald reagan so if

1:14:13

you aren't familiar hinckley had

1:14:15

watched the movie taxi driver starring

1:14:18

robert de niro as niro as cab

1:14:20

driver and jodie foster

1:14:22

as a young prostitute who becomes friends

1:14:24

with all deniro character

1:14:27

who is portrayed as

1:14:29

a lonely unstable guy

1:14:31

and in the film for both stocks

1:14:34

prepares and fail to assassinate

1:14:36

the us presidential candidate so

1:14:38

in a trial he plays trial his

1:14:40

defense experts argued that

1:14:43

mr hinckley held delusions

1:14:45

as part of a schizophrenia diagnosis

1:14:48

the defense drew parallels between

1:14:50

the movie and mr hinckley for the jury

1:14:53

by saying that he could quote identified

1:14:56

with travis bickle and picked up an

1:14:58

automatic ways of many

1:15:00

of his attributes and quote the jury

1:15:02

was shown serving letters written

1:15:04

by mr hinckley tennis foster in which he

1:15:06

professed his love for her and plan to

1:15:08

win her heart by quote getting

1:15:11

reagan so i have an

1:15:13

excerpt of the very last letter he

1:15:15

wrote to her would you mind reading it for

1:15:17

a scott

1:15:18

sure jody i would abandon

1:15:20

this idea of getting reagan in a second

1:15:22

if i could only when your heart and live

1:15:24

out the rest of my life with you whether

1:15:26

it be and total obscurity or whatever

1:15:29

i will admit to you that the reason i'm

1:15:31

going ahead with this attempts now is because

1:15:33

i just cannot wait any longer

1:15:36

to impress you i'm how to do

1:15:38

something now to make you understand

1:15:40

in no uncertain terms i'm

1:15:43

doing all of this for your sake by

1:15:45

sacrificing my freedom and possibly

1:15:47

my life i hope to change your

1:15:49

mind about me as letter is being

1:15:51

written an hour before i leave for the hilton

1:15:53

hotel jody i'm asking

1:15:56

you to please look into your heart and at least

1:15:58

give me the chance with this historical they'd

1:16:00

again your respect and love i

1:16:03

love you forever yes

1:16:05

brazier

1:16:06

faces at all right now so

1:16:10

, we can gather more

1:16:12

information a differing opinion

1:16:14

if you will when we look at the prosecution's

1:16:17

case during the trial so expert witness

1:16:19

and forensic psychologist dr park seats

1:16:21

was cross examined about mister

1:16:24

and please fix false beliefs

1:16:26

and his imagine relationship with jodie

1:16:28

foster doctor deeds felt that mr

1:16:30

hinckley with not delusional and

1:16:33

he said that she was attracted

1:16:35

to miss foster an interested

1:16:38

, by watching her through films

1:16:40

however he says here i have some

1:16:43

court

1:16:43

the script beat

1:16:45

no she didn't have a fixed police

1:16:47

and it's hard to find evidence that he had a false

1:16:49

beliefs he had unrealistic hope

1:16:52

defense attorney what is that called

1:16:54

besides and

1:16:56

it goes on to say that's called

1:16:58

being a dreamer the

1:17:00

defense attorney says is being a dreamer

1:17:02

a manifestation of manifestation serious mental disorder

1:17:05

and beat says no it isn't

1:17:07

so isn't

1:17:08

and if we take

1:17:09

what we know now and put this in hindsight

1:17:12

back on there

1:17:13

he could actually trying to explain

1:17:15

an extreme overvalued belief you saying

1:17:17

like this doesn't fit with delusional disorder hear

1:17:20

what are your thoughts got you have younger

1:17:23

the logo my first on will look you

1:17:25

know doctor deeds has been around been around

1:17:27

long time and he's been an adviser on

1:17:29

many things and he's done some great

1:17:31

research and i'm going to

1:17:33

give you that yes this is likely

1:17:36

a chance to describe

1:17:38

a concept that really had not done

1:17:40

imagined before right like

1:17:42

i get that i'm really not

1:17:45

comfortable with sort it

1:17:47

feels like a little bit of shilling

1:17:49

for the prosecution and away

1:17:51

okay here's a here's something that i would say and clearly

1:17:54

and look that guy's com pushed more in a

1:17:56

decade than i have in my entire career so

1:17:58

i'm not gonna go that far as i'm going to challenge

1:18:00

it a little bit and we have a better understanding

1:18:03

now certainly of these these

1:18:05

experiences and we

1:18:07

also know the influence

1:18:10

of paris social relationships you know

1:18:12

it is possible that heatley does

1:18:14

have an aspect of delusional thinking

1:18:16

and delusional beliefs and going

1:18:19

in and watching and movie

1:18:21

over and over again where again where

1:18:23

identifies with this character and

1:18:26

feels that he's developed this relationship

1:18:28

with jodie foster you know

1:18:30

which by the way completely inappropriate

1:18:32

age range as well my yes

1:18:34

he know there's a lot of other stuff fourteen

1:18:38

i , she was fourteen playing younger and

1:18:40

she looks after she looked like she was you know

1:18:42

about twelve years old so

1:18:45

i mean i guess the know it's all

1:18:47

those years ago so this was working

1:18:50

this was the best with what he had but i

1:18:52

have a little bit of a a different opinion i mean

1:18:54

it it's not delusional disorder and

1:18:56

it doesn't sit with obsessions in the traditional sense

1:18:58

what we have here with hinckley so

1:19:01

dietz did give more information

1:19:03

from as examination with hinckley that see

1:19:05

really feels that was able to

1:19:07

rule out delusional disorder when he was assessing

1:19:10

for a rato mania he did as

1:19:12

keenly if he thought he would ever actually

1:19:15

be with jodie foster if you'll recall

1:19:17

from earlier episodes iran mania

1:19:19

in the most concrete sense they fixed delusional

1:19:21

belief that this individual is

1:19:24

actually in a relationship

1:19:26

with the object of their fixation

1:19:28

for that other person who might be a celebrity

1:19:31

and that that other person is

1:19:33

actually in love with them so clearly

1:19:36

it does not meet that criteria here

1:19:38

he does not believe jodie

1:19:40

foster's in love with him he doesn't believe that she's

1:19:42

sending messages through music

1:19:45

again the elevator or sort

1:19:47

of more bizarre aspects of delusional disorder

1:19:49

but he does feel like he has a chance

1:19:51

with this person who doesn't know him

1:19:54

from adam so to

1:19:56

me is me is the gray area

1:19:59

here that i don't think they're necessarily looking

1:20:01

at but look almost immediately hinckley

1:20:03

it did admit that he knew he could

1:20:05

never really be with jodie foster her

1:20:07

which rules out like i said before that sticks

1:20:09

to delusional disorder he also did not

1:20:11

have any other symptoms of size

1:20:14

houses which would be like or

1:20:16

type of the visual or auditory hallucinations

1:20:19

additionally a consensus

1:20:21

by forensic psychologist who have reviewed this

1:20:23

case over the years they just drill

1:20:25

down to the fact that he is very narcissistic

1:20:28

and grandiose and throughout includes hospitalization

1:20:31

commitment over the decades the consistently

1:20:33

was diagnosed with narcissistic personality

1:20:35

disorder and doctor malloy feels

1:20:37

that he also has the borderline personality

1:20:40

traits with some flavors

1:20:42

of the rato mania happening and he acknowledges

1:20:45

the delusion is not strong so

1:20:48

we have to also remember that they're different

1:20:50

forms of narcissism and what we're

1:20:52

used to in the public discussion

1:20:54

public discussion most flamboyant ingredients versions

1:20:56

which are the overt narcisse and

1:20:58

people forget that there's actually classification

1:21:01

covert narcissist and

1:21:03

covert narcissist has nurses

1:21:06

now she saw a presentation

1:21:08

sides are great deal for the

1:21:10

typical signs and symptoms of a grandiose

1:21:12

narcissist so a grandiose narcissist

1:21:14

would be an overt narcissus which is what

1:21:17

we're all used to seeing what we're all used to talking

1:21:19

about covert narcissist may present

1:21:21

as shy and modest but their

1:21:23

internal emotional experience is one

1:21:26

of being persistently envious

1:21:28

of others they're unable to handle criticism

1:21:30

and most significantly they lack

1:21:33

empathy for others and been

1:21:35

that starts to veer into these other flavors

1:21:38

like doctor malloy a saying i would

1:21:40

go so far as a say in this case flavors

1:21:42

of a spd your antisocial personality disorder

1:21:44

so covert narcissist often

1:21:46

tend to spend a great deal of time alone

1:21:49

because they experience hypersensitivity

1:21:52

to criticism and constantly compare

1:21:54

themselves to others like overt narcissus

1:21:56

day experienced severe challenges

1:21:59

in man

1:21:59

the interpersonal relationships think

1:22:02

for that bout that bring so many more layers

1:22:04

to write in i'll just sweat

1:22:07

people have said over the years but it's it's

1:22:09

a lot more depth than just saying okay

1:22:11

yeah grandiosity and narcissism

1:22:14

you know as as he's been observed

1:22:16

because he has been in a psychiatric

1:22:18

facility for so long for was

1:22:21

that this feels much

1:22:23

more just deep into wet could

1:22:25

really be going on here

1:22:26

he oh look a little bit more tuned

1:22:29

nematode more fine line and

1:22:31

because it's asteroid sheds light

1:22:33

on the tone of the latter

1:22:35

that he said i feel like that explains

1:22:37

the covert narcissism a lot better

1:22:40

look in their article they're also may be some

1:22:42

spectrum disorder issues i don't

1:22:44

think anybody's looked at that it would be great if

1:22:46

we had more information by

1:22:48

you know i mean he's a free for this analysis

1:22:51

who knows if we're gonna actually had

1:22:53

the ability to do that so in their article

1:22:55

read and ransom off ransom off opinion that hinckley

1:22:57

held extreme overvalued beliefs rather

1:23:00

than delusions or obsessions regarding his relationship

1:23:02

with auster so let's go back to those hallmarks

1:23:05

of be obese and see that sets or beliefs or

1:23:07

by others yet

1:23:08

wanted to be with the beautiful celebrity

1:23:10

lots of people think this it's not

1:23:12

that abnormal of a thought

1:23:14

i get your yeah i mean

1:23:16

chris simms worth called me from block number

1:23:18

at night so he doesn't

1:23:20

say anything he hangs up by now it's

1:23:22

hum chris you're married

1:23:24

you have kids move on top and married

1:23:27

unmarried next point was the belief

1:23:29

relished amplified and descended

1:23:32

i think we've got a pretty clearly an

1:23:34

his affection for her and in the

1:23:36

laughter is that he was sending to her yeah

1:23:39

a amplified real least it's they're they're

1:23:41

being grandiose expressions of

1:23:43

his emotions and did assumptions

1:23:45

about what he can do with those emotions next

1:23:47

one was his thinking simple

1:23:50

absolute and binary

1:23:52

really the doesn't seem any room for gray

1:23:54

area and especially in his correspondence

1:23:57

when we look at it the letters very

1:23:59

resists

1:23:59

to change over time but

1:24:02

i think that last letter of like

1:24:04

if you do not decide to come

1:24:06

be with me well to pressure me to the

1:24:08

like that was the only

1:24:09

they're like contingency black

1:24:12

and white and contingency thinking was

1:24:14

there intense emotional commitment

1:24:16

the think we're able to get a full extent of

1:24:18

it without reading all the correspondence

1:24:20

and olives you know what he has to

1:24:22

say in his forensic evaluations

1:24:25

but they were extensive as

1:24:27

far as how he communicated with jodie

1:24:29

i just keep saying jody like we know her miss

1:24:32

saucer between a pretty good

1:24:33

the gym once ah lucky

1:24:35

recent years and years and years ago by

1:24:38

isaac

1:24:38

we get pretty good idea through just

1:24:40

that one that you read there's a lot

1:24:43

of emotion

1:24:44

into those words i would completely

1:24:46

agree and than the last point may

1:24:48

lead to violence again remembering

1:24:51

that the majority of ear be holding people

1:24:53

are not violent situation

1:24:55

is this an individual that may

1:24:57

lead to violence yeah i mean obviously

1:25:00

he

1:25:00

the shot at the president's and

1:25:02

the president's detail pushing his way through

1:25:05

a crowd to get up there and multiple shots

1:25:07

yeah very interesting too because

1:25:09

brady the one who was shot in the spine

1:25:11

and crippled actually has gun legislation

1:25:14

it was the almost the first of it's kind in

1:25:16

order to take weapons out of the hands

1:25:19

of mentally ill people theft so

1:25:21

read and random argue that many people in society

1:25:23

share mister he was passionate attitude

1:25:25

toward celebrities or game is over

1:25:27

involvement however which is very

1:25:30

commonly seen and borderline personality

1:25:32

disorder took a right turn and became

1:25:34

maladaptive to what

1:25:36

is his overvalued love object they

1:25:39

opined that he had a wistful

1:25:41

fantasy as opposed to a loss of

1:25:43

reality testing which is what we see

1:25:45

and schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders when

1:25:48

someone lives in the bubble of their

1:25:50

mental illness and they're not able to

1:25:52

challenge their own belief system so bottom

1:25:54

line in order to convict hinckley for the assassination

1:25:57

tapped the prosecution had to prove they're

1:26:00

not mentally ill or if he was

1:26:03

that he could still appreciate the wrong

1:26:05

fullness of his actions and conform

1:26:07

to the law by a jury ended up finding

1:26:09

hinckley not guilty by reason of insanity

1:26:12

and he remained under institutional psychiatric

1:26:15

care public outcry over the verdict

1:26:17

the lead to the insanity defense reform

1:26:20

act of nineteen eighty four which altered

1:26:22

the rules for consideration of mental illness

1:26:24

or defendants in federal crime court

1:26:26

proceedings in the u s this act removed

1:26:29

the volitional component that

1:26:31

a defendant lacked pass any

1:26:34

to conform their conduct

1:26:36

to the law was taken out of

1:26:38

and they had it meet that founder with the

1:26:40

ally test to the l a test had

1:26:43

been a test that was established by

1:26:45

the american law institute model

1:26:47

know code which provides that

1:26:49

a defendant would not be criminally

1:26:51

responsible for conduct his quotes

1:26:53

as a result of mental disease

1:26:55

or defect he lacked substantial

1:26:58

capacity either to appreciate the wrong

1:27:00

fullness of his conduct or to conform

1:27:03

his conduct to the requirements of the law

1:27:05

and

1:27:05

now and twenty sixteen federal judge

1:27:07

ruled that hinckley could be released from psychiatric

1:27:09

care as he had been assessed and was found

1:27:12

to no longer be considered a threat to himself

1:27:14

or others although with many

1:27:16

conditions and after twenty twenty another

1:27:19

ruling was issued a proving that hinckley may

1:27:21

showcases artwork his writings

1:27:23

and his music publicly under his

1:27:25

own name rather than anonymously as

1:27:28

he had in the past since then he has maintained

1:27:30

a youtube channel for his music

1:27:32

the up thirty thousand subscribers

1:27:34

you guys go on there and see him play the

1:27:36

guitar and sing and

1:27:37

yeah is restrictions were unconditionally

1:27:40

lifted in june twenty twenty two he

1:27:42

is a free man

1:27:44

he certainly as well i was

1:27:46

round out this part of the discussion but seating

1:27:48

once again that most individuals

1:27:50

with mental illness are not violent

1:27:53

nor do they attack public figures

1:27:55

however there is substantial

1:27:57

evidence in the research that the majority

1:27:59

of or attackers and assassins

1:28:01

a public figures and celebrities are

1:28:04

actually likely to have a major

1:28:06

mental illness so the

1:28:09

disorder in question can be present

1:28:11

at the time of the attack or in their past

1:28:14

additionally the research states quote

1:28:16

what appears at first to be an issue

1:28:18

driven and politically motivated pursuit

1:28:20

of a public figure can actually be

1:28:22

hiding a severe psychiatric

1:28:24

disturbance basically both can coexist

1:28:27

you can have someone that has their grievance has

1:28:29

are extreme overvalued believe that also

1:28:31

there's gonna be as that amount of people who

1:28:33

have a diagnosable major

1:28:35

mental health disorder when we

1:28:37

don't always see that with other types of violence

1:28:40

this this is one of those were the researchers

1:28:42

say no actually mental illness

1:28:44

so little bit more prevalent here than in other

1:28:46

cases so for the first time we're

1:28:49

discussing a very specific type of crime

1:28:51

a rare one where mental illness is

1:28:53

quite prevalent along with that grievance peace

1:28:56

that's pretty remarkable because i think you

1:28:58

and i over and over again are always like hey guys

1:29:01

mental illness violence is not go hand in hand

1:29:03

in hand doesn't in this is the most general

1:29:06

most broad berms but this is really

1:29:08

been one of those narrow issues

1:29:10

where we do see that manifesting one

1:29:12

quick actual know on threat the vast majority

1:29:15

of those who successfully quote

1:29:18

of course a cat or assassinate don't

1:29:21

threaten first they send

1:29:23

out like letters or anything of

1:29:25

course good to see i told them not

1:29:28

to oh come on

1:29:31

up , gotta get a little taste of

1:29:34

us are at are rate that

1:29:36

we've gone through our or cases

1:29:39

that are research so time for

1:29:41

some media depiction you

1:29:43

are right so

1:29:44

when it came to mind for me

1:29:46

the ninety ninety three film in the

1:29:48

line of fire i don't know who i was

1:29:50

an eighty ninety three but i thought this is a great movie

1:29:53

at the time and i went back and watched this last

1:29:55

weekend so this

1:29:58

this character frank corrigan who

1:30:00

is played by clint eastwood is a secret

1:30:02

service agent who keep

1:30:04

thinking back to november twenty

1:30:06

second nineteen sixty three when he

1:30:08

was a handpicked agent

1:30:11

by president john f kennedy and

1:30:13

she became one of the few agents to

1:30:15

have lost a president to an assassin

1:30:17

when kennedy died and now

1:30:20

been present nineteen ninety

1:30:22

three time in the film there

1:30:24

is a former cia assassin

1:30:27

bit leery who has actually play wonderfully

1:30:29

by john malkovich is that men can do

1:30:31

no wrong really and he is stalking

1:30:34

the current president who's running for reelection

1:30:37

so john malkovich

1:30:39

his character has spent long hours studying

1:30:42

for again the secret service agent

1:30:44

and he becomes calling him and

1:30:47

taunting him and telling him

1:30:49

of his plans to kill the president he

1:30:51

has a grievance where he plans

1:30:53

to kill the president because he feels betrayed

1:30:56

by the government that he wants worked for

1:30:58

so leery was removed from the cia

1:31:00

and the cia is now trying to have him

1:31:02

killed he says and after talking

1:31:05

to leary horrigan make sure that sees

1:31:07

assigned to the president now even though he's

1:31:10

super old he

1:31:12

, i want to be on on protection

1:31:14

duty which puts him working with

1:31:16

fellow secret service agent lily rains

1:31:19

played by rene russo who also was in

1:31:21

like every movie in the early nineties so

1:31:23

beautiful court and has no intention of failing

1:31:25

his president this time around and he's

1:31:28

more than willing to take of bullets bullets

1:31:30

as the election gets closer horgan began

1:31:33

to doubt his own abilities especially when

1:31:35

his colleagues played by dylan

1:31:37

mcdermott is killed by leary

1:31:39

but horrigan may be the only

1:31:42

one who can stop leary this time

1:31:44

around so that's the premise i

1:31:46

can tell you this movie is basically

1:31:48

an old clint eastwood trying to get into

1:31:50

a young rene russo his pants the entire time

1:31:53

and it's kind of growth and a lot of

1:31:55

ways and most

1:31:57

especially because it works she ends up falling

1:31:59

for it and

1:31:59

the right into , famous

1:32:02

scene where he's like waiting for her deterrent

1:32:04

turnaround look at me look at me look at rate is

1:32:07

very stark array of

1:32:10

yeah and then of course the first same they

1:32:12

gotta make love like their stumbling

1:32:14

into the room dropping their like their

1:32:17

magazine rounds magazine their hand costs

1:32:19

like it's just a trail of

1:32:21

the great service paraphernalia to the bed

1:32:23

personally and seems is really

1:32:27

well i my favorite

1:32:29

example is why have i have to

1:32:31

don't have to don't with assassinations one

1:32:34

is be classic first

1:32:37

aeration of this movie be a manchurian

1:32:39

candidate and it is so

1:32:41

well done it is a thriller

1:32:43

and it's about brainwashing it's

1:32:45

about brainwashing p about w who is captured

1:32:48

by the koreans and the is brainwashed

1:32:51

into responding into a set

1:32:53

of commands of commands a whole shadow

1:32:56

government going on in the us

1:32:58

and angela lansbury angela

1:33:00

lansbury is one of those actresses that like they

1:33:02

would just say yeah we know you're only thirty two

1:33:05

but juergen played the mother of this fifty year old

1:33:08

her but she such a good actress

1:33:10

and she's sort of urbino sort regal perceived

1:33:13

plays and absolutely like evil

1:33:16

evil person who's blake i'm one of the main

1:33:18

players and there's like and really

1:33:20

creepy thing that triggers him

1:33:22

to go into his assassin mode

1:33:24

it's like when the when somebody suggests

1:33:26

one it we play a game of cards so there's this

1:33:28

theme throughout the movie of of playing

1:33:31

cards which is really fascinating and then

1:33:33

for the supernatural version which is really good is

1:33:35

this really cool movie starring

1:33:37

christopher walken is the dead zone which

1:33:39

is a stephen king novel and it was directed

1:33:41

by david cronenberg really wanted

1:33:44

a better adaptations of a stephen king movie

1:33:46

and you know it's going to be wild with that combination

1:33:49

and sir christopher walken is a guy

1:33:51

that gets into a car accident he wakes

1:33:53

up from a coma with this ability to

1:33:55

know a person's future by touching

1:33:58

them to touch them and he gets display electric

1:34:00

shock reduce gets the entirety

1:34:02

of their lives all in one big

1:34:05

dump of information and for the

1:34:07

most part like it's disturbing

1:34:09

eat like of starts to avoid people because

1:34:12

you know to close to him because he knows too much

1:34:14

information but after shaking hands

1:34:16

with an up and coming politician he understands

1:34:19

that he has to kill the sky because

1:34:21

if the guy follow through with this

1:34:23

line of prediction

1:34:25

t will become the president of the us

1:34:28

and he so unbalanced he's

1:34:30

gonna start i literally and apocalyptic

1:34:32

nuclear more because he's so crazy

1:34:35

though the christopher walken character realizes

1:34:38

that he has to kill the sky is has

1:34:40

a really great twist at the end so

1:34:42

it's from the early nineties to highly recommended

1:34:44

really really good one

1:34:46

that's that's things to put on your list

1:34:48

people

1:34:49

yeah so

1:34:51

folks thanks for hanging out with this with

1:34:53

this long episodes but some great

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news we're going to start offering ad

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this month with kinda crazy reading him yesterday

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hiring are light stream so cool yeah