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you probably don't remember where you were

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on october fourth twenty twenty one

0:41

tonight major outages affecting

0:44

billions of users of facebook instagram

0:46

and once app all of it's starting this morning

0:48

and continuing through the day all

0:51

three apps went offline at the same

0:53

time around the world

0:54

inconvenience doom scrollers on

0:56

facebook and instagram switched over to other

0:59

platforms so much so that the

1:01

official twitter account tweeted out hello

1:03

literally every one

1:06

for received kara

1:08

what's that going down was a much bigger deal

1:11

we never thought what suffered we don't for so

1:13

long

1:13

the official sat down lasted for about six

1:16

hours but the effects lingered in

1:18

a few places such as india

1:20

which meant enormous consequences

1:22

for people like sarah what's that

1:24

is his livelihood

1:26

he sounded a food tech business called saki

1:28

piecing outside new delhi india to

1:30

deliver specially milled flour and spices

1:32

to people

1:33

and he runs it primarily on what's up

1:36

that's where he lists available items chats

1:38

with customers processes orders

1:40

saw seventy eighty percent of of a business was

1:45

your i was not allowed about fifteen

1:47

million businesses run on what sap in

1:49

india

1:50

and even today to be very honest

1:52

we don't have an alternative it's can and a person

1:55

replacement seventh of the doctor

1:57

in india what's sad is more than a

1:59

that messaging service for it's four

2:02

hundred million users there what's

2:04

app is the internet or

2:06

you could put it like this what's up in india

2:09

is the avail flights keep

2:11

, touch with your family was i

2:13

and so does what's that send

2:16

money

2:16

crackle medical information like

2:19

were to get a covert vaccine once

2:21

though it doesn't contribute much to met his bottom

2:24

line yeah what's up at the company's most

2:26

a central product by far that's

2:29

because with over two billion users

2:31

what's up as embedded in the social economic

2:34

and political infrastructure of countries

2:36

across the globe

2:37

there's a dark side to connecting the world

2:40

enormous platforms can cause enorme

2:42

the problem india is

2:44

what's that's the biggest market and viral

2:46

hoaxes on the platform are being blamed for

2:49

blamed recent spate of mob violence

2:51

recently in india internet lynch

2:53

mobs of killed a dozen people including

2:55

innocent bystanders

2:57

the encrypted messaging platform has become

2:59

a playgrounds a conspiracy theorists

3:07

the day the story of what that's

3:09

incredible power as told through it's largest

3:12

market

3:13

india mark zuckerberg

3:15

has had has long history was india even

3:17

before what's that solidified his company's

3:19

dominance

3:42

long before what's up was one of the biggest

3:44

apps in the world mirage aurora

3:46

nurses starting to climb the download start

3:49

of googles android play store

3:51

the year was two thousand and ten and aurora

3:53

was working on corporate development google he

3:56

was tasked with looking for startups to acquire

3:58

at the dawn of the smartphone

3:59

era

4:00

what's up had no information

4:03

about them on the website so

4:05

i emailed support that what's up dot com

4:07

i didn't hear back for several

4:09

days finally i think brian

4:12

the blade on support

4:14

the email saying why don't you come

4:17

meet us at the small to address brian

4:19

is in brian ashton who cofounded

4:21

what's up with yonkers

4:23

the founders met while working a yahoo now

4:25

we were building what's up out of a small back

4:28

office in silicon valley aurora

4:30

members that had an informal meeting room

4:32

so it was sort of like i just the cubicles

4:35

normally a conference room

4:37

that was like shit like this is very

4:39

weird because i'm going to cause some sensitive stuff

4:42

with you and they're like i don't care

4:44

neither did aurora he left the meeting

4:46

excited about the potential for what accent

4:48

and kumar

4:49

and he made an offer for the start up

4:51

on behalf of google ten million dollars

4:54

an impressive price tag considering that

4:56

what's that boasted barely a million downloads

4:58

so far and hadn't raised any outside

5:00

capital and yet action

5:03

and kuhn past so aurora

5:05

came back within back few months with a better

5:07

deal one that he says google co-founder

5:09

larry page had to personally sign

5:11

off on one hundred million dollars

5:15

the fed look we left the i'll decide

5:18

what's up for a reason we

5:20

can't be companies

5:22

it cannot operate me began have

5:24

so thank , my mods

5:27

thanks for many claim it as a

5:29

power moves that left moves lasting impression

5:34

when aurora left google looking for his next career

5:36

move he called whatsapp

5:38

obviously the only com me i really wanted to like

5:41

work out was what's that like i've seen everything

5:43

draw boss air bnb square

5:46

they all the hard darling the the rally

5:49

one not that interesting the

5:51

public the hidden gem the nobody knew about and we're just

5:54

going really well in the founder that incredible

5:56

aurora joined was app in november two thousand and

5:58

eleven as it's sheath this officers and

6:01

by then what's apps growth was

6:03

taking off purely by word of mouth

6:06

the hands of millions of people were using the yeah

6:08

the most important thing was that our

6:12

daily to monthly active users they so

6:14

was the best member

6:16

state think it was around seventy

6:19

something person like seventy

6:22

percent of your monthly active users would come back

6:24

daily ritual that they better

6:27

than facebook

6:28

here's why what's that was taking off it

6:30

was a cheaper alternative to texas traditional

6:33

text messaging was expensive and a lot of the

6:35

world at the time

6:36

you often got charged protection

6:38

messaging apps like what's up instead

6:40

use internet data plans

6:42

and what's up with simple both to

6:44

sign up for anti is human

6:46

action made action priority of supporting every

6:48

kind of smartphone possible so what's

6:50

up could work no matter the device and

6:53

your account was just her phone number yeah

6:55

been limited the information collected on it

6:58

not your location and not the names or address

7:00

as of your

7:01

the talks this book to a key value

7:03

for the sounders of what's up privacy

7:06

from the very beginning privacy and security

7:08

were built into the company's dna this

7:11

was more than a design feature it was

7:13

what the founder so they owe their users

7:15

born in ukraine during the soviet years

7:18

growing up his parents avoided using the telephone

7:20

for fear they were being monitored by the state

7:23

coombs appreciation for privacy came

7:25

from his personal history act and came

7:27

from his professional past

7:29

the yahoo in the nineties he'd run an advertising

7:32

platform the collected click through data it

7:35

turned him off for good on targeted as

7:37

he had a very

7:38

like an ugly experienced i do think

7:41

that thing out at he didn't really enjoy

7:43

that experience and and acting on at a time swing

7:45

at an all that so when they started

7:48

what saab and month by join it was vaguely

7:50

i said i'm nuts and now as i do that at

7:52

this is a very intimate at birth know drive

7:55

but the a building i would hate to collect

7:58

on know what people it's adding it's adding on right

8:00

so from day one it was

8:03

not an option

8:04

who famously teeth and know to his works best

8:06

from act and the red no ads

8:09

no gains no gimmicks

8:13

what's up emphasis on simplicity and privacy

8:16

was working

8:17

the early twenties thirteen the company had two

8:19

hundred million active users

8:21

and was advertising off the table act

8:23

and and coombe decided to charge a whopping ninety

8:26

nine cents a year for the app

8:28

it wasn't much but in the world of free

8:30

social media have like facebook twitter and

8:32

snapshots it was unusual

8:34

according to aurora it was actually

8:36

part of an effort to slow down growth

8:38

to a manageable

8:39

but a strategy didn't work

8:41

out exactly as planned

8:43

the group never stop people who are still paying they

8:47

were shotgun at item of i still have those

8:49

things or somewhere where the

8:51

be with the point where we

8:53

were the top beard on on the

8:55

app store and fifty different countries

8:57

the same time what's that success was starting

9:00

to make waves in april twenty thirteen

9:02

com took the stage at the all things d mobile

9:04

conference and revealed that what's up have

9:06

more users than twitter

9:08

everybody was nothing in a bag like who

9:10

are these guys in never talked about themselves and now

9:12

this anger bigger than twitter

9:14

aurora she says after coombs make drop major

9:17

acquisition offer is rolled in the

9:19

chinese company ten cent was the first big one

9:22

ten billion dollars google

9:24

called again this time larry

9:26

page wanted to meet and the meeting

9:28

got schedule

9:29

right it would be too late

9:32

because someone else had been keeping track

9:34

of what's of success mark

9:36

zuckerberg

9:38

we were getting into the zone

9:40

of half a billion users active users

9:43

really active every day and

9:46

with and opportunity to definitely get

9:48

two billion users and do and lot of

9:50

other thing and just

9:53

it was absolutely

9:55

and the surface of third for facebook and he

9:57

knew that as he had shown with

9:59

curtis of instagram zuckerberg

10:02

was always on the lookout for challengers to

10:04

his social media empire and

10:06

, up growth on mobile phones directly

10:08

challenge facebook messenger especially

10:11

because what's app was taking off and parts of the

10:13

world that messenger just wasn't

10:15

and in a more fundamental level people

10:17

were using what's app for many of the same reasons

10:19

they may otherwise use facebook to keep

10:21

in touch with family and friends online it

10:24

was was of users that might never entered

10:26

deceased but universe that never

10:28

needed it or he might lose

10:30

the way

10:32

though he made his move

10:34

before whatsapp was set to meet with google

10:36

zuckerberg invited coombe over for dinner

10:39

facebook that look

10:40

whatever it takes the kind of below

10:43

you want to specs or whatever you want will

10:45

give it to you

10:46

by whatever you want they meant

10:48

donna me norad complete

10:51

product independence yeah

10:53

right bought food

10:55

for yawn which we didn't ask for the offered with

10:57

a book a fine

10:59

and

11:00

gibson and one and gibson was

11:02

they cannot say no to it like he was still

11:05

working on it and the said the up the support that

11:08

the end to end encryption was a deal pointed

11:10

spoke to act in in coombs focus on privacy

11:13

the technology would prevent any

11:15

one except the sender and recipient of a

11:17

message from being able to read it so

11:19

even what's app itself wouldn't be able

11:22

to know the contents of the conversation

11:24

slowing through it's service

11:26

the encryption deal point also spoke to an

11:28

inherent tension between what's out and face

11:30

the early on these

11:32

books business model descended on collecting

11:34

data about users legs and interaction

11:36

so it could use that data to personalize

11:38

as

11:40

obviously on and brian white never put

11:42

this on the record that we were doing this partially

11:44

so that facebook never gets any information about

11:46

our users i know for sure that was

11:48

one of the reasons they wanted to do

11:51

even if was absent here and to privacy

11:53

with contradictory in some ways to face with

11:55

business facebook just wanted

11:58

to get the deal

11:59

zuckerberg did just that on valentine's

12:02

day and twenty fourteen they agreed

12:04

price nineteen billion

12:07

nineteen mostly facebook stock

12:09

it will be zuckerberg largest acquisition

12:11

ever by far

12:12

the media reported at the time zuckerberg

12:14

and cume shared a plate a c

12:16

the only appropriate chocolate covered strawberries

12:19

it was a whirlwind romance is

12:23

a great company and as sir and it's and great

12:25

fit for us

12:26

just shy of two weeks after the deal was

12:28

signed suburb was in barcelona

12:31

at the mobile world congress a gigantic

12:33

trade show for the mobile telecommunications

12:35

industry

12:36

the already almost half a billion

12:38

people are most using was

12:40

asked for for messaging on

12:42

and it's the most things easy

12:44

as that that we've ever seen

12:47

exists on mobile are by far

12:49

people were stunned by how much he paid for what's

12:51

up

12:52

it was the most expensive purchase of any private

12:54

tech startups a day the when zuckerberg

12:56

was asked to explain his rationale he

12:59

sounded a little defensive

13:01

you just think that by itself it's worth more than

13:03

nineteen billion dollars i mean it's it's hard

13:05

to exactly make that case today are

13:07

because they have so little revenue

13:09

compared to that number but i mean the reality

13:11

is there are very few services that reach a billion

13:13

people in the world they're all incredibly valuable

13:16

much more valuable than that

13:17

that robert watson was invaluable

13:20

because it was a way to sell his original mission

13:23

up getting as many people in the world as possible

13:25

using one of these books products

13:27

one jan and i first met and started talking

13:29

about this i'm we

13:32

really started talking about what it

13:34

was going to be like to connect everyone in the world right

13:36

and a lot of this is division

13:38

for internet dot org and that's what i

13:40

really want to take the time to focus on today

13:43

internet dot org this project zuckerberg

13:46

talked about in the same breath as whatsapp was

13:48

an initiative to bring internet access to various

13:51

countries with untapped users including

13:53

india

13:54

we can become an incredibly attractive market

13:56

to silicon valley so

13:59

around

13:59

any fifteen silicon

14:02

valley essentially looked

14:04

eastwards and said

14:06

here's the big market it has more

14:08

than more than people or a telecom

14:11

war is just getting underway hairs

14:13

are next billion users

14:15

fernandez it is a technology reporter for

14:17

bad seed who is based in india from twenty

14:19

four

14:20

to twenty twenty kill

14:22

that telecom war he mentions

14:24

it meant that suddenly india experienced

14:27

a huge drop in internet data

14:29

costs a whole bunch of people

14:31

who couldn't afford to get online

14:33

right now could most

14:35

people in india experience the internet's

14:37

almost entirely on their smartphones

14:40

india leapfrogged as

14:42

they say they desktop pc era

14:45

most people never had them

14:47

so back to zuckerberg the internet dot org

14:50

project a way to get onto all those smartphones

14:53

practically interface for parted with major

14:56

telecom services in india and other countries

14:58

to provide a free stripped down version

15:00

of the internet facebook of course

15:02

would be one of a suicides available

15:04

facebook branded internet dot org as

15:07

an idealistic project to deliver the human

15:09

right of connection that many

15:11

did not buy that friend especially

15:14

in india where there were protests

15:16

against the sports initiative many

15:19

people and even the government's saw

15:21

it as an attempt by facebook to control

15:23

the internet the government ended up outright

15:25

banning the project lucky

15:28

for zuckerberg he would still have a way

15:30

to those hundreds of millions

15:31

users what's up in india is

15:33

a v of life in

15:35

there's following thesis acquisition of was

15:37

at the outsourced in india even

15:40

with limited to g mobile internet connections

15:43

people could load what's up relatively quickly

15:45

because it was simple with far fewer features

15:47

and social media apps like facebook

15:50

what's up with a success except in

15:52

one respect

15:54

revenue

15:55

just a few years after the acquisition

15:57

conversations inside say spoke began

15:59

to

15:59

the how what's that could make money that's

16:02

subscription what's up originally charged

16:04

facebook removed it after the deal they

16:06

wanted to run ads

16:08

on the to a feature

16:11

that what's a belt

16:12

status this feature was a knock

16:14

off of instagram stories it launched

16:17

and twenty seventeen the facebook

16:19

status was a natural place to run ads

16:22

they had all the infrastructure of running ads

16:24

on instagram and facebook so they're like we just

16:26

forget it the brine had

16:28

an allergic reaction to that he was like i'm leaving

16:31

and he left a lot of money on the table

16:35

the and walked away from roughly eight hundred and fifty

16:37

million and facebook shares he

16:39

would go on to become the chairman of signal

16:41

another encrypted messaging apps it's run as

16:43

a nonprofit and went to cambridge

16:45

analytic cambridge scandal broke scandal twenty eighteen

16:48

act in tweeted out quote it is time

16:50

hashtag delete facebook

16:53

a few months after action last to

16:55

quit to though it's unclear

16:57

how much as had to do with it

17:05

and playing or

17:06

really this whole situation

17:08

is ironic because as never came

17:11

to what's up facebook decided

17:13

that the risk of backlash wouldn't be worth it

17:15

but not before accident coombe an aurora

17:18

were out the door

17:21

and then facebook decided to lean

17:23

into the values of what's sap to

17:25

embrace it's focus on privacy as

17:27

a selling point

17:29

did you to think about what it means to offer

17:31

a service where people

17:33

communicate their most private

17:36

hawks people to care about the most

17:38

all around the world

17:40

the current head of was app will cathcart

17:43

her transferred over from the face

17:45

the gap and twenty nineteen now

17:47

he says met has embraced an ads

17:49

free website instead

17:52

is pushing to make money by charging businesses

17:54

to message their customers

17:56

there are lot of really really

17:58

sensitive conversations

18:01

that happen on what's up

18:03

everything from people talking to a doctor people

18:05

talking to a journalist and lot of countries

18:07

or whatever popular government officials talking

18:09

amongst themselves to got off for the

18:11

highest level security this preaching of

18:13

what's that's the regional values it's not just

18:15

coming from cathcart

18:20

privacy gives us the freedom

18:22

to be ourselves

18:25

it's easier to feel like you belong

18:27

when you're part of smaller communities

18:29

and amongst your closest friends

18:31

mark zuckerberg at basements at as as

18:34

and twenty nineteen

18:35

russian misinformation and cambridge analytical

18:38

behind him this was a year zuckerberg

18:40

made a hard habit to privacy specifically

18:43

, he said he believes the seats are of communications

18:46

would increasingly shifts to encrypted

18:48

messaging as the world gets bigger

18:50

and more connected connected need

18:52

that sense of intimacy more

18:55

than more than more so

18:58

that's why so believe that

19:00

the future is bright privacy

19:03

and encryption

19:04

they become virtues to facebook but

19:07

these commitments are now putting metre

19:09

and what's up what's odds with the government of

19:11

india

19:11

the largest market

19:15

that can cause real world

19:18

problems

19:24

fuck radio for sponsoring this season

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of land of the giants marketing experts

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everywhere are looking for new ways to keep customers

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from scrolling right past their ads they've

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even coined the term for as the to this they

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call them some supper and everyone

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marketing online is playing that same game but

19:39

what if you didn't have to what if you could reach

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20:01

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is getting lost in the scroll to learn

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more visit k l a d i

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y o dot com slash voc

20:35

please note in the second half of the episode

20:38

their descriptions of graphic acts of violence

20:41

if you want to skip this content exact

20:43

times are given in the show notes

20:45

india lives and dies by

20:48

what we call for words which

20:50

is just people forwarding

20:52

pieces of content patches

20:55

, of text

20:58

to each other on what's at at

21:00

dixit technology reporter for busby

21:02

the is t just adding is t

21:05

what's that feature forwarded messages

21:07

content you could easily send us your friends

21:09

or what

21:09

never group era part us you will

21:11

be in like fifty different what's

21:13

that groups ah full

21:17

of people you may know like your

21:19

friends and family and maybe you're also

21:21

you're also groups of people you don't know that well

21:23

like once for your neighborhood or school or

21:26

does he get pretty big filled with hundreds

21:28

of hundreds most for the content

21:30

tends to be mundane good mornings

21:33

weather reports recipes but

21:35

as with anything they can go potentially viral

21:38

some forwards aren't so benign

21:41

late twenties seventeen a wave

21:43

of so called stranger danger

21:45

spread across what's app in india

21:47

be

21:48

stranger danger videos that went out since the

21:50

following things look out for your children

21:52

there are strangers in your area that coming

21:54

to kidnap your children and take that kidney the

21:56

basic message in multiple different

21:58

vernacular language

21:59

the across india said

22:01

controller banerjee is a professor of media

22:03

culture and social change at the london

22:05

school of economics and political science

22:08

she researchers the spread of misinformation

22:10

what struck me not he was at these videos were

22:12

carefully edited and tailored to different

22:14

ethnic groups austin depicting local

22:16

children being seemingly kidnapped or heard

22:19

by malicious outsiders so

22:21

revamp you'd have a video of a

22:23

killing of children from for

22:25

the upshot overlapping that

22:27

you would have a voiceover in in

22:29

tamil telugu hidden these

22:31

saying something like this

22:32

what people traffickers are doing in your

22:35

area even that the so clear from the visuals

22:37

it's the children were not let

22:38

but nevertheless is spread absolute

22:41

panic

22:42

so there was a call to arms at the end

22:44

of each of these messages asking

22:46

people to fall with them and essentially

22:48

almost cajoling them to take things into their own

22:50

hands and do something about these people who are

22:52

kidnapping the children born objects it reported

22:55

on what happened when one of these stranger danger

22:57

videos went viral i ended up

23:00

traveling to

23:01

this

23:03

the tiny hamlet called

23:05

right products which is

23:08

in the indian state of maharashtra in

23:10

the western part of the country were

23:13

just days before i visited

23:15

five , had been lynched to death

23:18

in an extremely gruesome

23:21

and due to manner basically

23:24

manner mob of forty people don't

23:26

them and beat them to dead inside

23:28

or the village council office

23:30

the video that spurred that violence it

23:32

was complete misinformation featured

23:35

an image of dead children that was actually

23:37

from the aftermath of a chemical weapons

23:39

attack in syria

23:40

like the fact that the information was being shared

23:43

by people and what separates made

23:45

us feel more trustworthy

23:47

what's up as your window to the world

23:49

and you believe everything

23:52

that

23:53

that you see there

23:54

because

23:55

you know oh somebody i know sent me this

23:58

a friend sent me this somebody from

23:59

the it for me this so

24:02

it might be true

24:03

the not you says in addition to the trust factor

24:06

there was something else that works here

24:08

an atmosphere of heightened religious and

24:10

political tensions

24:12

as we were doing our research it became evident

24:14

that very quickly that discourse

24:17

more from it's just any stranger

24:19

in your area to it's

24:21

muslim invaders it's an infiltrator

24:24

people from across the border it's bangladeshis

24:27

it's rohingya so really

24:29

quickly so it began to look like

24:32

there had been a kind of plan all

24:34

along to so distrust

24:36

and

24:36

mckee again

24:37

new people coming into particular area

24:40

regional ethnic and religious conflicts

24:43

in india predate the internet

24:45

the just as access to the internet started to

24:47

grow the political climate changed

24:50

help in two thousand and fourteen and

24:52

narendra modi and his government came to power

24:55

in india after a very sort of concerted

24:57

new media campaign in which they

25:00

are links and modern technologies assume

25:02

that preach to different

25:05

photograph

25:06

modi ran on a successful digitally

25:08

savvy campaign a political populism

25:10

vowing to put an end to corruption in india's

25:13

the ruling class

25:14

the political party the bjp

25:16

historically has had a hindu nationalist

25:19

message one which was amplified

25:21

during the campaign and after modi came

25:23

to power this ideology faces

25:25

the states that india is

25:27

and always has been and

25:28

this will be a hindu mainly

25:31

in the nation that hindus

25:33

should be proud of their him and then

25:35

should be strong

25:36

moody's critics say that some of the viral

25:39

stranger danger rumors on what south

25:41

will not directly started by modi or the bjp

25:44

drawn religious divisions at the core

25:46

of the parties politics

25:49

from around twenty seventeen to twenty eight

25:51

scenes banerjee says over thirty

25:53

people were killed across india by mobs

25:55

and cited by misinformation spread out what's

25:58

up

25:58

the violence was gaining more more attention

26:01

and pressure was mounting on what's up to confront

26:03

the issue

26:04

so in july twenty eighteen what's

26:06

up rolled out some product changes in india to

26:08

try to curb the sharing of incendiary

26:10

videos and misinformation

26:13

it was a little over a year since the first

26:15

major lynching connected to what's app happened

26:17

here's what's apps will

26:19

cari we said okay how we approach the problem

26:21

what are the things we can do to help society

26:23

deal with misinformation one of the first

26:25

things what's up did was to add friction

26:27

to sharing to slow down the speed at

26:30

which viral content could spread we

26:32

really latched onto while how easy

26:34

is it to send information around at

26:36

how easy to find alternatives sources

26:39

of information so forward limit have been

26:41

the biggest change by far we've made

26:44

in india that many user could only forward

26:46

something to five individuals or groups chat

26:48

simultaneously down from the previous

26:51

limit of one hundred what's up adopted

26:53

similar rules worldwide six months later

26:56

it also removed a feature that allows for quick

26:58

forwarding and eventually replaced it with a

27:00

google search button the remind people

27:02

to confirm something is true before forwarding

27:04

it or not trying to jump in and say hey what you just as

27:06

false by changing the design of the product

27:09

we can make it easier to find out the truth

27:11

than it is to quickly forward something without thinking about

27:14

these are all important changes but

27:16

the objects said the company could have considered

27:18

the consequences of what saps original product

27:21

design sooner

27:22

that's a true line with silicone

27:25

valley products and platforms that have expanded

27:28

into countries like india without

27:30

putting in the necessary checks

27:32

and balances first without doing

27:35

groundwork without actually steady

27:38

a , that they were expanding into

27:41

the saw billion people and

27:43

they were like great here's great billion people

27:46

let's just give them the

27:48

product our app our service

27:51

and then let's see how they use it

27:54

brandy and regulators though these measures weren't

27:57

enough after was have implemented

27:59

some of the changes the ministry of electronics

28:01

and i t issued a statement demanding a do

28:03

more

28:04

the government called for what's after filter out

28:06

harmful content from the source to

28:08

trace a scene of forwards back so

28:11

could track down who is spreading violence

28:13

and do some rumors

28:14

there was one big problem and

28:17

end encryption one of what's that

28:19

core values are value of stuff to all

28:21

along with it couldn't see or trace

28:23

people's messages meet

28:25

you paralyzed with the tech website media

28:28

nama

28:29

what's that was doing something about

28:32

this information in

28:34

terms of trying to prevent it it would mean that

28:36

that eating the texts and that wouldn't be into

28:38

an infection

28:39

so what happens in a very tricky

28:41

situation where at one

28:43

level it can't do much except

28:46

that a product never good time address misinformation

28:49

that another way there's really

28:51

nothing that they can do it specifically

28:53

to address misinformation on the platform

28:57

here's what was up can do according to welcome

28:59

it's hard sometimes on the team we talk about

29:01

it is i'm solving a problem is an architect

29:04

would rather than a law enforcement

29:06

officer would be architects think a lot about

29:08

the design of a building but a lot of a city what

29:10

can you do that will help create a safe environment or safer

29:13

environment overtime which is very different than when there's

29:15

been a problem a specific problem

29:18

had a good deal with i think

29:20

for some of these problems like of misinformation

29:22

d private nature of the product

29:25

has pushed us more towards architect solutions

29:28

because you have to given how private it isn't

29:30

are

29:31

hopefully sense like limiting message

29:33

forwarding the other men of platforms

29:35

like facebook and instagram they can

29:37

take the kind of law enforcement approach cathcart

29:39

reference they are able to moderate

29:42

content directly because they can see it

29:44

and twenty twenty one india's ministry

29:46

of electronics and i t issued new rules

29:49

requiring social media companies to identify

29:51

the quote first originator of information

29:54

when requested by the government essentially

29:57

a legal mandate for what's up to break

29:59

in

30:01

in response what's have filed a lawsuit to

30:03

block the regulations which is still ongoing

30:05

we're trying to make the point

30:08

undermining and and encryption is actually

30:10

bad

30:12

for the things government care about in

30:14

in any free democratic society

30:17

i believe security people's private communications

30:19

is really really really important one

30:22

of the point we've been making is that it is ironic

30:26

the governments are never asking us to increase

30:28

the security we offer people they're all

30:30

laughing as lower

30:31

the indian government says it needs to root out the

30:33

viral misinformation that incites violence

30:36

but the experts we talked to were skeptical of

30:38

moody's intentions

30:40

the worried that this could be away for the government to

30:42

crack down on open political debate in the country

30:45

the control of analogy again

30:47

the point believed in good faith that

30:50

governments really intended to

30:53

trace the people who was sending the murderous

30:55

messages and that

30:57

they were not going to only take action

30:59

against the people who were i'm

31:02

organizing pro democracy the rallies

31:04

third people who was some

31:05

way critical of the government

31:07

then i might consider the

31:09

v encryption as an answer

31:11

the what is the endgame

31:13

the indian government has proven it can be serious

31:15

about social media regulation the went

31:17

so far as the ban tic toc and twenty twenty

31:20

claiming that the app was harmful to the quotes

31:22

sovereignty and integrity of india basically

31:25

because of it's companies chinese ownership

31:28

that many observers believe that despite this

31:30

precedent in the ongoing legal challenges

31:32

what's app isn't going away

31:35

an addiction again

31:36

don't pain even

31:39

the government wants to be the situation where

31:41

they ban was sad because it's like

31:43

what do you want to replace it with there's with there's

31:45

else

31:47

ultimately what's up is it a high stakes

31:49

face off with the indian government

31:51

that on my tic toc what's app is so

31:53

entrenched in india that it can't be

31:55

as easily acts

31:57

at this point both what's up and the indian

31:59

gov

31:59

need each other but they're each distrustful

32:02

of the others intentions matters

32:04

other social networks we've talked about the season

32:07

instagram facebook they're fighting

32:09

to stay relevant

32:11

what's a fight is different and then it's coming

32:13

from a place of strength which

32:15

, maybe why will cathcart has a point

32:18

when he says he believes that what saps model

32:20

is the future future had this had

32:23

growth and innovation period and it didn't

32:25

submit an eagle the town square the media

32:28

we're now seeing this incredible growth in

32:30

more private communication services

32:33

like what's up and features like stories

32:36

that have some morality groups

32:38

what has card means when he refers

32:40

to the town square social media models

32:42

is essentially the core facebook we all know

32:45

well every one shouting everything

32:47

is the public arena guided by algorithms

32:49

that guess what

32:50

want to hear most

32:52

the square it it's incredibly crowded messy

32:55

chaotic

32:56

what's apps way is instead more private

32:58

trusted and simple and even

33:00

though it doesn't make matter that much money the

33:02

trust users has and what's sad is

33:04

invaluable

33:06

the what's up so runs into that recurring

33:08

facebook problem a sometimes

33:10

enabling the ugliest aspects of

33:12

human behavior

33:14

the route the course of the season detention

33:16

we've been tracking in each of matters platforms

33:19

comes down in a way to scale

33:22

the cupboard has always wanted to connect

33:24

the world to have as many people

33:26

as possible using his technologies

33:29

and he's unable to do that made the right

33:31

acquisitions said the right

33:33

a trick

33:34

but when it comes to considering the complexity

33:37

of every culture the trade off

33:39

as every product design that

33:41

i haven't always been able to think ahead

33:52

next week zuckerberg grandest

33:55

boulders vision to date the metaverse

33:58

in our season finale over the

33:59

for zuckerberg twins that the next

34:02

era we can it was just

34:21

actually rico's aversion the vox media

34:23

podcast megan ,

34:26

or senior producer although it can be

34:28

can lotta suis are produced production

34:30

support from cynthia basic these jolie

34:32

myers is already

34:42

as for hackers and gravity editor of

34:44

or our chances are so the

34:46

shock her eyes are produced

35:15

this season of land of the giants is brought to you

35:17

by claudio your , are looking

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