0:00

What's up everybody, it's Austin Rivers from Off Guard,

0:03

and I've got some exciting news. Off

0:05

Guard hosted by me and my guy Pasha

0:07

Hagigi is officially moving to our own podcast

0:09

feed. We are now dropping two shows every

0:11

week. Me and Pasha go way back

0:13

and talk so much hoops already that we figured it

0:15

was time to fire up the mics and let you

0:17

in on these conversations. Every week, Pasha

0:20

and myself will hit on the biggest stories happening

0:22

around the league. Tap into the show twice a

0:24

week on our new Off Guard feed, on Spotify,

0:26

or wherever you get your podcasts. This

0:31

episode is brought to you by Maybelline New

0:33

York. Get ready to bring

0:35

the heat with Maybelline's newest lip-plumping gloss, Lifter

0:38

Plump. Fair warning though, it's

0:40

hot. Like literally. It's

0:42

formulated with chili peppers to bring a heated

0:44

sensation and an instant plumping effect that lasts.

0:47

Available in eight sizzling shades, like Blush

0:49

Blaze, Hot Honey, and more. Buy

0:52

Lifter Plump now on Amazon and use the code

0:54

10PLUMP to get 10% off for a limited time.

0:57

Tap the banner to learn more. This

0:59

episode is brought to you by hotels.com. I

1:02

was traveling internationally last year. I was in Mallorca. I

1:04

didn't know the island well. I said, let me head

1:07

to the north, head towards the water. Let me go

1:09

on hotels.com and see what they have available. Something

1:11

preferably on the beach, maybe even a gym. Not

1:13

only did I get those things, there

1:16

was a kid's session

1:18

with exercise, gymnastics in

1:20

the water, pony rides, a

1:22

train. It had everything and

1:24

I didn't even want any of those things. But

1:27

at least I knew they were there just

1:29

in case I changed my mind. And now

1:31

finding the perfect hotel has never been easier

1:33

thanks to the hotels.com app. Whether

1:36

you're looking for a family-friendly, right?

1:38

All inclusive or relaxing spa weekend

1:40

You can find exactly what you

1:42

need an compare hotel prices, ratings

1:45

and amenity side by side. Start

1:47

planning your next get away and

1:49

find your perfect somewhere in the

1:51

hotel's. Dot com app. Hey,

1:59

welcome back everybody. It's a pleasure to have this

2:01

gentleman back on the pod. He's one of my favorite people

2:03

to watch. I

2:05

was gonna say listen to because, you know, he's

2:07

so interesting. You could just listen to this, to

2:10

Bakari, as well as

2:13

watch him on scene and commentate. He has

2:15

a new book out called The Moment, which

2:17

is very provocative. So

2:20

much to dig into in that book. And

2:22

we're welcome back, I'm back on there. Mr.

2:24

Bakari Sellers, how you doing, man? And I'm

2:26

happy to be back. This was one of

2:28

the shows that when they asked what

2:30

shows that I wanna do, yours was definitely one

2:33

of the ones that I mentioned. So I appreciate

2:35

that. You always come

2:37

from a point of view when I watch you,

2:39

especially covering the elections, stuff like that. You

2:41

always stand out with

2:45

your thoughtful commentary. And,

2:47

you know, sometimes you get emotional in there, which you

2:49

talk about in the book too. I take a page

2:51

out of your book, which is that I think people

2:53

appreciate or find it refreshing when we

2:55

tell the truth. And that's what I try to do. I think

2:57

so, you know, and I think

2:59

authenticity is appreciated by people. That's a

3:02

word that I'll use even more than the

3:05

truth, which I think is good too. But

3:07

I think when you're your authentic self, you

3:09

know, people appreciate listening

3:11

to you because they

3:13

know they're gonna get something that

3:16

is human at least,

3:18

you know, that they can relate to, you

3:20

know. You know,

3:22

it's funny, because, you know, just going off of that topic,

3:25

relatability is

3:27

as important in politics as policy and

3:29

all that other stuff. Don't you think

3:32

so? I think Donald Trump actually taught

3:34

us that. For better or for worse,

3:36

people found him to be refreshing because

3:38

he said whatever was on his mind. Me and

3:40

you may find it impulsive and ignorant, but there

3:42

was a level of, he's

3:45

just telling you like he sees it, un-unish,

3:47

I mean, he's uncouth, un-unish. But he

3:50

ushered in a new political

3:52

correctness is no more. I don't think there's a

3:55

such thing as political correctness anymore. And I think

3:57

that level of authenticity means that more people can

3:59

be evolved. in the process, it doesn't seem like

4:02

we are on this, you

4:04

know, kind of glass house far away. That

4:08

authenticity and relatability is necessary.

4:10

It feels like I'm

4:12

just searching back in my mind because I'm an oldie

4:14

here, you know, I feel like Reagan,

4:17

to me, was the first person that

4:19

married that in politics in my lifetime,

4:21

you know, were

4:23

like Carter was he was kind of

4:25

likable at first because he seemed like

4:28

different from Washington. But Reagan used

4:31

that type of thing where people could relate

4:33

to him as a political tool at first,

4:35

you know, I remember it was when he

4:37

first said, I paid for this microphone, you

4:39

know, it's like people related

4:42

to that the way that he said that even

4:44

more than the content of it, like the way

4:47

that some people communicate Bill Clinton, where

4:50

I feel your pain was another way where

4:52

somebody he, you

4:54

know, people really related to his empathy,

4:56

I think, for people and that sort

4:59

of thing, you know, it's interesting how

5:01

different politicians, even George W,

5:04

I think his moment in 9 11,

5:06

where he took the bullhorn and that type of

5:08

thing, you know, a lot of people connected

5:11

with him in that moment, like different positive different

5:13

relatability. It's kind of my critique, I'm saying this,

5:15

because it's kind of my critique of Biden, which

5:17

I feel like he's kind of missing that. Oh,

5:20

wow. Okay, you buried the lead in that. Where

5:26

am I wrong? It's

5:31

funny, though, Republicans usually up

5:34

until Donald Trump were somewhat of

5:36

a cultural personality. Republicans, as

5:39

we say, in the Beltway, they like

5:41

to fall in line. Democrats,

5:43

we've not fallen in love. And

5:45

we had these figures, JFK, Bill, that's

5:47

right. Fuck Obama larger than life, you

5:50

know, when they touch

5:52

you, you know, women would melt, you know,

5:54

it's the way they swag those type things.

5:57

Yeah, Joe Biden ain't that. But you know, he's not even

5:59

Joe Biden doesn't even. had the relatability of

6:01

Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton had her own

6:03

style. She represented there were, there were

6:05

legions of women, right? Who

6:08

adored Hillary Clinton. I don't know where the

6:10

Barack Obama, I don't know where the Joe

6:12

Biden army is or legion is. We just,

6:14

he's a conduit to

6:16

not have Donald Trump. Yeah, he

6:18

actually is, you know, he's the

6:21

anti Trump president, you know? But

6:24

you know, it's funny because he, he was

6:26

trying to carve out a lane that

6:29

could have been like an LBJ lane because

6:31

you left out LBJ when you mentioned all

6:33

those people interested in enough. And LBJ was

6:35

the most successful out of all those presidents

6:37

you mentioned in terms of legislation, you know,

6:40

but the Vietnam War kind of did him in

6:43

during that time period. But the it's breathtaking. I was

6:45

just at the LBJ library, so this is fresh in

6:47

my mind. It's breathtaking the

6:50

amount of legislation that was passed

6:52

during that period. I would argue

6:54

that LBJ and you got to

6:56

take out if we, we just purely have to take

6:58

out context and how he, I'm not

7:00

saying he did it willingly, but the

7:03

times meant that he had to like the

7:05

Fair Housing Act, the world was going to

7:07

blow up because Dr. King had

7:09

just been assassinated. Like these things weren't

7:12

willingly done to say the least, but he

7:15

was somebody who was the

7:17

most consequential president that we've

7:19

had in recent history. And

7:22

I say that to follow up with this and

7:25

pose this. If Donald Trump is

7:27

reelected, you do realize that Clarence

7:29

Thomas is 73, 74, Justice Alito is 73, 74, and he

7:31

will have an

7:36

opportunity to appoint five justices to

7:38

the United States Supreme Court. Literally

7:41

the most consequential president and rolling

7:43

back everything that LBJ did. Well,

7:45

Trump is the most successful Republican

7:48

president in getting

7:50

the conservative agenda to have a

7:52

foothold in the American

7:55

institution, you know, in government

7:57

institution by that Supreme Court.

7:59

alone, which is to me, is the

8:02

biggest reason why people

8:05

who support Trump out of ideological

8:07

reasons because they're conservatives or whatever, these people

8:09

that have been fighting Roe v. Wade for

8:11

years, there is no way in the world

8:14

they're not voting for Trump. When

8:17

people try to point to his personality

8:19

and all this stuff, they could care less.

8:21

As long as he's putting in conservative judges,

8:24

it is the only thing, like you talk

8:26

about a one issue voter, that

8:28

one issue is very powerful on that

8:30

side. You answered a question though, because

8:32

a lot of people are like, tell

8:34

me how these white male evangelicals can

8:36

vote Donald Trump. You just really answered the

8:39

question. I mean, talking about a man who

8:41

has five kids by three baby mamas, cheated

8:43

on his pregnant wife with a porn star.

8:46

Yeah, exactly. What about King David? Why don't you

8:48

talk about his personal life? You know

8:50

what I mean? He's

8:54

still King David, people still sing

8:56

his songs. Why

8:58

we got to be mad at Trump's personal life? Do

9:01

we have conservative justices or not? If the answer is

9:03

yes, thank you very much. Keep that

9:05

coming. I mean, honestly, he's a

9:08

transactional figure. He is not a

9:10

figure, and that's

9:12

why he's beloved as opposed

9:14

to hope and change being

9:16

the thing. Not Obama, but

9:20

opposed to this kind

9:22

of murky vision or you're pointing

9:25

out something that feels good, but

9:27

what's actually being delivered that people

9:29

can say this is concrete? Yeah,

9:32

I don't know. Barack Obama would tell you, like, Lilly

9:34

led better in the Affordable Care Act. Yeah, the Affordable

9:36

Care Act was great. That's why I don't want to

9:38

put Obama in that. But

9:41

it didn't translate to another win.

9:43

He won twice. No, Hillary

9:46

was rejected. I'm saying like that

9:48

legacy didn't

9:50

translate Hillary for me was a combination

9:52

of the underbelly of the United States

9:54

of America. Hillary was a lot of a lot of

9:56

racism. You

9:59

know, people were like. Look, we

10:01

just gave y'all a Negro for eight years. We're not

10:03

about to give y'all a woman. Right? This is this

10:05

is just This is just

10:07

too much. Okay, we're not about to

10:10

that's As Van

10:12

Jones called it on the night. He said it was a

10:14

white lash I was the head of Van Jones six months

10:16

earlier. I called it a black lash, you know Oh, well

10:19

Trump movement y'all on the same y'all on

10:21

the same wavelength So that's exactly what but

10:23

and we're talking about these presidents in politics.

10:25

Dare I say Hillary Clinton was the most

10:27

qualified Person to ever

10:29

run for president of the United States of

10:31

America. Yeah, but that doesn't garner you Electoral

10:35

support from the masses, you know

10:37

your qualifications, you know, that's like

10:41

That's like ignoring that politics exists, you know,

10:43

it's like oh you're the most qualified. Okay,

10:45

you have my vote. Thank you That's all

10:47

I need somebody told me that if you

10:49

had a headhunter who was looking for CEO

10:53

Of the United States of America Joe Biden and Donald

10:55

Trump would not be in the top

10:57

hundred thousand choices I agree with that But

10:59

here you have it You got a choice between three things in

11:01

this election and we'll see what's one of

11:04

those three win I mean you got Donald Trump you

11:06

have Joe Biden and you have the couch and Joe

11:09

Biden's biggest threat is the couch

11:11

people stand at home. Well Yeah,

11:14

but why why is the couch, you

11:16

know to me that's that's Biden's fault.

11:18

Not the couches fall. No Why

11:21

we blame in the couch we're acting like the Like

11:24

the couch is making some promise to people,

11:26

you know couch ain't making any promises, you

11:28

know That's that's that's on you to lead.

11:30

Look, I'm a huge Laker fan, you know,

11:32

that's my guy. God bless you, man I'm

11:35

sorry, man I'm in so much pain right

11:37

now because but the Lakers have a lack

11:39

of real leadership to me right now and

11:41

you in That comes

11:43

out in high pressure situations,

11:45

you know Yeah, I don't know what Darwin

11:47

Darvin ham is like Mike Johnson to me

11:51

Can't control this caucus and he's in over

11:53

his head to say the least the job

11:56

is too big for him Right this see

11:58

this is a very nerdy political for its

12:00

conversation right now. Yeah, I don't know where we did.

12:02

I hope everybody followed that. Right.

12:04

Right. Right. Well,

12:06

going back to the Biden thing, I'll talk about this, but I

12:08

want to get into it. This is

12:11

my frustration as somebody who votes

12:13

Democrat, and I think that we're

12:16

in the right side of history right now, and

12:18

overall, I always

12:20

do look at things from, I

12:23

try to look at things from a macro perspective. And

12:26

I think, especially in the issue

12:29

of abortion, it

12:31

is the biggest threat to some

12:34

of our liberties, let's say civil

12:36

liberties right now. It's one of

12:38

the biggest examples of it. I know there are other

12:41

examples, and I think that court

12:43

is a big symbol of that and an

12:45

actual obstacle in it. So

12:47

I am concerned about that, the

12:49

couch and all those things, and

12:53

why isn't there more of an identification

12:56

with that stopping or with

12:58

moving past that? What is

13:00

the biggest obstacle, Bakaro? Don't

13:02

have a vision for the future.

13:04

Donald Trump and Joe Biden, and I

13:07

have never put them in the same Senate so much as I have in

13:09

this show, but Donald Trump and Joe

13:11

Biden have the same problem, which is that

13:13

they both live in the past. Donald

13:16

Trump is more of a white grievance. I have

13:18

grievances about what this happened to me in the

13:20

past. Joe Biden wants to tell you what he's

13:22

done for the last 60 years since he's been

13:24

in DC. And maybe

13:27

it's impediment brought on

13:29

by being 83 years old. You

13:32

have to be able to tell me what the

13:34

future of this country looks like for my children.

13:37

Now you may not be here, Joe Biden, but

13:40

you still have to be able to articulate that vision. I

13:42

mean, look, if you talk about the Biden

13:44

administration and what they've done, we're talking about

13:46

$7 billion for HBCUs. We're talking about 70

13:48

billion. It's like $69.9 billion given in federal contracting

13:53

to disadvantage black minority businesses. You're

13:56

talking about the share of black small

13:58

business ownership doubling since. to 2020.

14:02

You're talking about what they've done with

14:04

African American female mortality and Kamala Harris.

14:06

You're talking about Kentucky Brown Jackson on

14:08

the Supreme Court. You're talking about appointing

14:10

all of these judges throughout the country

14:12

on federal benches. So they're very

14:14

tangible things that have been done. The

14:17

problem is that a lot of Americans don't feel

14:19

it in their pocket. My dad, I

14:21

tell this story all the time. My dad is

14:23

still pissed off. He went to the Piggly Wiggly

14:25

the other day. He called me at, he was

14:27

mad about the price of whiting. I mean, he

14:30

was thoroughly upset at the price of whiting and

14:32

people aren't feeling it in their pockets. We're not

14:34

messaging to them. We're not meeting them where they

14:36

are and they're not filling your policies. Why

14:39

not? And we're not giving them a compelling vision

14:41

for the future. Why not? While the couch is

14:43

so successful. Why not? If, if it's that simple,

14:45

why not? Why aren't they doing it? Because they

14:47

don't listen to me. There seems

14:50

like a big resistance to

14:53

hand the baton off. Oh, I mean,

14:55

yeah, politics, churches. Let me ask you a question.

14:58

Yeah. This is your show, but let me ask

15:00

you this question. Cause I know, no problem. We're

15:02

in a conversation. I've been struggling with this. Joe

15:04

Biden is going to speak at Morehouse college. Yeah,

15:07

I saw that. What are three things that you

15:09

would tell Joe Biden, just top line items, words

15:11

or items that you would tell Joe Biden to

15:13

cover, or you would want to hear him say

15:16

to an audience of black men? Well, if

15:19

I'm advising, cause I've done this

15:21

type of speech before, I think

15:23

you have to inspire people for the future. Young

15:25

people to me respond to those type of statements.

15:28

You don't want to talk about your achievements and

15:30

that type of thing. That's self-serving. You

15:32

know, who cares? You know, don't be a politician.

15:35

You want to be a figurehead

15:37

of inspiration, you know, give them, give

15:39

them some vision things to

15:42

chomp on and maybe some

15:44

tools that are powerful for

15:46

them. You know, some words of wisdom that

15:48

they, that is powerful for them

15:50

and they can use, you know, you can

15:52

relate to them, but I feel

15:54

the best thing you should try to do is relate

15:56

to them as a leader, someone who's out there who's

15:59

lived. a certain life, walks a certain path,

16:02

and you've learned these things from your observation of life,

16:04

but don't go as a politician. And

16:06

let me tell you something, young people, they respond

16:08

to leadership. There's nothing wrong with

16:11

being a leader and having

16:13

a vision for something. You don't have to be

16:15

liked by everybody. You just have to have

16:18

the courage of your convictions of what you're leading

16:20

on. That's what I would say. Yeah,

16:23

I encourage them to talk

16:26

about peace globally, because

16:28

a lot of young people are concerned that the world appears

16:31

to be on fire. Talk about

16:33

abortion and what the role men

16:35

can play in preserving reproductive

16:37

rights for women. And then

16:39

talk about an agenda that includes voting rights. But

16:42

what I specifically said is if you go... So you

16:44

think you should give a political speech? Engaging

16:46

them to get involved in the

16:49

process on these particular topics. And

16:52

the last thing I said is if you go up there and

16:54

spend 25 minutes on criminal justice reform, I personally will riot. You

16:58

know, your book is really interesting because it's

17:00

part look back, it's part look forward, you

17:03

know, using the civil rights struggle of the

17:05

past and the moment that we're in and

17:07

the George Floyd moment and those sort of

17:09

things. It's really moving the stories about your

17:12

father and his journey and all that stuff,

17:15

which is great. I love that we're learning

17:17

these things, people that don't know this value, which is

17:19

really nice. What are you hoping to say

17:21

with this book? Are you hoping to give your...

17:23

Is this your speech to the students, this book?

17:26

No, this speech is hoping that people... I

17:29

feel like a lot of people are on

17:31

the sidelines, overwhelmed, exhausted, desensitized. Exhausted, sure. I

17:34

wanted to put some words out that would

17:36

re-engage them in the conversation. And what we

17:38

did was we identified the problems that we

17:40

see. We tackled the

17:43

underlying issues behind COVID and

17:45

their devastation communities. We

17:48

talked about the black church and we talked about not

17:50

listening to black men and that untapped

17:52

potential of black men. But we also tried

17:54

to get prescriptions in the book. Now as

17:56

you... A minute ago, which resonated

17:59

with me. Everybody ain't

18:01

gonna like everything I wrote. Right, which is fine.

18:03

Which is fine, but you want to stand, as

18:05

the kids say, 10 toes down. You

18:07

also want to, I want to start a

18:09

conversation because I truly believe

18:12

that we had a unique opportunity in this country.

18:15

But as people point out, like

18:17

after every reconstruction, there are

18:19

moments like this. And I firmly believe we're in

18:21

the nadir. We're at the, we're at

18:23

one of the darkest points in our country's history right now.

18:26

The king says only when it's dark as can you see

18:28

the stars. And so I

18:30

take a little hope out of that. And which way are

18:33

we at one of the darkest moments in

18:35

which area? Oh, I mean, let's say how

18:38

we're not, right? So is it, is

18:40

it the banning of 1600 books? Is

18:44

it the attack on diversity?

18:47

Is it the abortion law in Arizona from the

18:49

1800s? Is

18:52

it the individuals who represent us

18:54

who look nothing like us or,

18:56

or, or, or

18:59

rep, or we feel like they accurately represent us.

19:01

You were talking about passing the baton. I

19:03

mean, the democratic party is just old.

19:06

It's just an old party, say 14, but

19:08

for a long period of time before

19:11

teen, our leadership was Steny warrior, Jim

19:13

Clyburn, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden.

19:16

I mean, everybody I've just mentioned was over 80

19:18

years old. And

19:20

we had these underlying systems that are still broken.

19:22

And that's the exhaustion. I'm not even talking about

19:24

a criminal justice system, but I'm talking about the

19:26

environmental injustices. The fact that we have a hundred

19:28

cities in these countries in this country to have

19:30

less potable water than Flint, Michigan. We're talking

19:32

about the violent way in which we miss educate kids. Kids

19:35

still go to school where they're eating and they're don't work.

19:37

The number one cause for children underperforming in

19:39

South Carolina, Larry, take a while.

19:42

Guess what it is. Lunch. Hunger.

19:45

You're right. I mean, that was fascinating, but

19:47

you're right. You're absolutely right. Well,

19:49

I can relate, you know, you know, we didn't

19:51

have a lot when I was a kid. And

19:53

I remember being hungry was always the biggest thing.

19:55

And so you look at all of these points

19:57

and I just feel like a lot of people.

19:59

people are just beat up. And so

20:02

therefore they are exhausted,

20:04

tired, and on

20:06

the sidelines watching the world go by, we need

20:08

them to be re-engaged. How do you re-engage Black

20:11

involvement from an activist standpoint? You talk

20:13

about the church in your book and

20:16

the history of its involvement, but

20:19

are times just too different now

20:21

for that same type

20:24

of cultural movement to happen? Or

20:26

do you think it's something you

20:28

think is vitally important to re-establishing

20:31

a vital movement? I'm a little old-fashioned and I'm

20:33

southern. I'm from the big city of Denmark where

20:35

we got three stoplights in a blink, and I'm

20:37

like, vitally important. I mean,

20:40

I think the church once was the

20:42

most important thing in our communities.

20:45

And it's back to being the most important thing

20:47

in our communities. It should be, it has to

20:50

read. It's been consumed by, as we

20:52

talk about in the book, it's been consumed by

20:55

prosperity gospel. And

20:57

that prosperity gospel has led them

20:59

away from being the

21:01

epicenter for change. My dad always talks about

21:03

how the Black church was not just a

21:05

place for Sunday mornings. Snake utilized the church

21:07

as a mobilization place, as an organizing place,

21:09

as a place to feed, as a place

21:11

to educate, a place to meet. And

21:14

it's just not serving that purpose anymore.

21:16

And I overgeneralize so that people get

21:19

more engaged in the conversation. But a lot of that

21:21

too, which you acknowledge in the hearing book also is,

21:24

there are a lot of the reasons

21:26

for that was Blacks had no choice too. There

21:28

weren't a lot of places you could meet publicly

21:31

without paying a price for it. The

21:33

church was a convenient place for that

21:35

and everything. But the role of church

21:37

in people's lives, hasn't that fallen off

21:39

just in society overall? Has

21:41

it though? I think it has in

21:43

the way that you're talking about it. Well, I'll

21:46

put it like this. I'll use one example. To

21:48

me, the whole existence of the

21:50

moral majority, to me coincided

21:52

with kind of the decline in church

21:55

attendance and the decline

21:57

of that being a given.

22:00

civic life as opposed to

22:02

it being a pawn

22:04

in civic life. Like, you know, having

22:06

a prayer before meetings, things like that,

22:08

you know, it was just natural for

22:10

people to call on God. If

22:13

you go back and really live

22:16

in certain time periods when things happen,

22:18

you know, where people in

22:20

government are calling on prayer just in certain

22:22

moments that we all engage in prayer, Roosevelt

22:24

told people, let's all go to church tomorrow,

22:27

you know, things like that, you know, those

22:30

things were given in society when they started

22:32

falling off. The 60s, you know, was a

22:34

big turning point in a lot

22:36

of those institutions kind of, you know, having a

22:38

reckoning in some way. And to me,

22:40

part of the rise of the moral majority was, you know,

22:43

using putting that into politics because a lot of

22:45

it was going out of culture as a given.

22:48

Yeah, and I think that reckoning is happening because

22:50

I think that churches, I think,

22:52

and I think COVID devastated the black

22:54

church first. And we're starting

22:56

to see that a lot. I mean, a lot of

22:59

churches went under. People have to

23:01

realize that a lot of churches weren't able to adapt.

23:03

I'm talking about being from the South, but a lot

23:05

of churches weren't able to adapt because they didn't even

23:07

have the technology. The technological divide was, is

23:10

still a real thing. So they didn't even have

23:12

the technology to adapt to the

23:14

virtual aspect. But this, I think, I think

23:16

the church is going through a reckoning again,

23:18

because of bringing this conversation back kind of

23:21

full circle. I'm not sure young people recognize

23:23

what this church is, or they know what

23:25

it should be, but

23:28

they want this church to be more accepting of them.

23:30

And churches are having to go

23:32

through a reckoning so they can accommodate a new

23:34

generation of leadership. I think that's what we're

23:36

seeing as well. And it's a little bit uncomfortable. Are

23:38

they turning to church because of a

23:41

relationship with God or the spiritual

23:43

thing? Or are they turning to

23:45

it as a way to be

23:47

aligned in some political thing, which

23:49

you're talking about? Are those two

23:51

separate kind of issues in

23:53

different lanes here? No, I think it's

23:55

those two reasons and the exhaustion that

23:57

we talked about. People are turning looking

24:00

for something to nourish them

24:02

or feel them. I

24:05

think a lot of people have a void because

24:08

it's hard being black outside. It's

24:12

a struggle when you go outside your home, right?

24:15

And I think that angst leaves people

24:17

to try to find some nourishment somewhere.

24:20

Which is, I mean, you're starting to see uptick in therapy.

24:22

You going to therapy, what Larry? I'm

24:24

a whole different generation. I

24:27

go to therapy once every two weeks. I go

24:29

to therapy for you, Negroes who don't go to

24:31

therapy. That's why I go to therapy. But you're

24:33

starting to see an uptick in those type of

24:36

outlets. I don't think it has to be an

24:38

either or. I think it's a both and. Yeah,

24:40

well, I think mental health is in a different

24:42

category too. I think there's a, see the trouble

24:44

is to me, there's so

24:46

many Venn diagrams in any of these discussions, you

24:48

know, and I just can't stop putting those

24:50

together because mental health, there's so many different

24:52

tracks that are on that. Some of that

24:54

is generational, you know? There are different pressures

24:57

and concerns that young people have that maybe

24:59

I didn't have or didn't think about or

25:02

weren't as important, you know? And

25:05

I think social media has a

25:07

lot to do with that. And the way, you know, modern

25:09

technology, the way that we live our lives in a lot

25:11

of that, I think people feel a lot

25:13

of isolation these days in different ways. They

25:15

feel they put a lot of pressure and

25:17

judgment on themselves, which is unfair. And so

25:19

identity, I think one of the biggest

25:21

issues today is identity and not just racial, you

25:23

know? I mean, we know how big

25:25

gender is right now. And there's kind of

25:28

a, I won't say crisis, but there's certainly a

25:30

movement happening where identity

25:33

is being questioned, it's being challenged, you

25:35

know, in so many different ways. And

25:37

that can cause a crisis in your

25:39

self-worth and all kinds of things and

25:41

in comparison culture, which social media leads to,

25:43

you know? But also, I mean, you're talking

25:46

about trauma too. I mean, at the end

25:48

of the book, afterwards are my favorite parts.

25:50

Afterwards, epilogues are my favorite part of

25:52

the book. People write all of this and kind

25:54

of brain dump and get everything out. And then

25:56

epilogues and afterwards are like moments of clarity. But

25:59

I talk about this. But to piggyback on your

26:01

point, it's not just social media. It's

26:04

under the auspices of social media, but a child

26:06

born in 2000 has lived through 9-11, financial

26:09

crisis, housing crisis, election of Barack

26:11

Obama, advent of the Tea Party,

26:13

reelection of Barack Obama, parkland, Fort

26:15

Hood, synagogue shooting, largest mass shooting

26:17

in the history of the country

26:19

in Las Vegas, Nevada, mother and

26:21

man annual, October 7th in Israel,

26:23

Gaza, Russia invading Ukraine, COVID,

26:26

January 6th, Charlottesville,

26:29

and they're still here. I mean, that's

26:31

generations of trauma, like

26:33

in two decades. Now, I

26:36

will just offer you this. For someone who was born in

26:38

1961, two years in, the

26:40

president of the United States is assassinated. A

26:43

couple of years after that, Malcolm X

26:45

is assassinated. The Martin Luther King, Robert

26:47

Kennedy are assassinated. You have

26:49

a war in Vietnam. I have pictures in TV

26:51

of someone being shot in the head. After

26:55

that, a president is kicked out of

26:57

office, biggest

26:59

government scandal ever. Students are shot on

27:01

the campus of Kent State in kill.

27:03

In South Carolina State, in Jackson State,

27:05

yeah. Yeah, I mean, so that

27:08

kind of trauma has been around for a long time.

27:11

Bring me back to my point of why you need

27:13

therapy, Larry. We're back in the same place. We

27:17

can go to, there's so many decades. We can go

27:19

to the teens, you know, 100 years ago, you

27:22

had the red summer, you

27:24

know, all those types of things. Here's

27:27

the other thing, Bakari, that's interesting to me. And this is

27:29

what technology has done to like

27:32

global ills and

27:35

people struggling and oppression and all these

27:37

things. Of course we know it's happened

27:40

everywhere and throughout the world. So we've experienced it differently

27:42

as black people in this country for sure, because we've

27:44

had a front row

27:46

seat being the victims of a

27:48

lot of these things, right? But now

27:50

it's interesting, like, what is your take on what's

27:52

happening on college campuses where people

27:54

are, for the first

27:56

time, it seems really engaging with what's happening

27:58

in the Middle East with... else in

28:01

Israel and that kind of thing. And it happened in effect in the

28:03

election. I know that's kind of a big question. So

28:05

I think if there's, I mean, to answer your last question, I

28:07

think if there's a cessation of fire between now and then, Joe

28:10

Biden would be in a much better position than he

28:12

is today. I agree with that. I agree with you

28:14

on that. I think also militarization

28:17

of law enforcement and college campuses

28:19

don't mix. We just talked

28:21

about that. Exactly. We just gave three examples of

28:24

that. We also have to realize there's

28:26

a rise of antisemitism on college campuses and

28:28

really around, all you have to do is look at Twitter.

28:32

But it's such a complicated question

28:36

because I think

28:39

October 7th was one of the worst days I've ever seen in

28:41

my lifetime. And

28:45

those hostages still have to be returned. No

28:47

telling if many are dead. You

28:49

can also argue that while I believe

28:52

Israel has a right to defend itself, you can argue

28:54

that use of force has been disproportionate. But I

28:56

don't think there's any way you can justify, Jose

28:59

Andres losing some World Food Service providers

29:01

in the West Bank. There's no way

29:03

to justify that. There's no way to

29:05

justify it. It's just to say, why

29:08

are there rules in war? I mean,

29:10

is that even logical to have rules in

29:13

war? If we're gonna ask

29:16

these existential questions about

29:18

it, like is that

29:20

hypocritical to say, well, our objective is to

29:22

kill you, but let's have some rules that

29:24

we can't do. Yeah, but I mean,

29:27

you have to do your damnedest of means. You

29:29

gotta mitigate that, right? I'm not arguing, I'm just saying, you

29:32

gotta do your best to limit the

29:34

number of women and children that are

29:36

better murdered. But I mean, I hear

29:38

you would think. You would think. And

29:40

so I think people don't wanna

29:42

have a nuanced conversation. I mean, the

29:46

unique part about the NYU situation is

29:48

I've learned a lot of

29:50

people don't even know what the students at NYU are

29:52

protesting, which makes it. What are they protesting? So

29:54

they are satellite camp. You know, NYU has satellite camp.

29:56

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. It's in Manhattan, yeah, yeah.

29:58

Right, there are, there are. are satellite

30:00

campuses in Tel Aviv. Oh, okay.

30:02

And due to

30:05

travel restrictions of Palestinians, Palestinian children

30:07

or students cannot go to that

30:10

campus in Tel Aviv. Okay.

30:13

And so the students are raising the

30:15

issue of why are we funding a

30:18

satellite campus that Palestinian children or

30:20

students cannot attend. That is the

30:22

rub of the debate as I

30:24

understand it. And so they are

30:26

having negotiations on how to figure out how to

30:28

handle that. This

30:31

episode is brought to you by Empower. You

30:34

got money questions like, can I retire

30:36

early? What are my best savings options? Can

30:38

I afford to pay for my kids' education?

30:40

Luckily, Empower has all the answers. With

30:43

Empower's real-time dashboard and real live

30:45

conversations, you get clarity on

30:47

your real-life financial goals. So join 18

30:50

million Americans in Empower What's Next. Start

30:53

today at empower.com. Tap the

30:55

banner or visit this episode's page to

30:57

learn more. Sponsored by Empower,

30:59

not an endorsement or statement of satisfaction

31:01

by a client. Okay,

31:04

picture this. It's Friday afternoon when

31:06

I thought I

31:09

could spend another weekend doing the same old

31:11

whatever, or I can hop into my all

31:13

new Hyundai Santa Fe and hit the road.

31:15

With available H-track all-wheel drive and three-row

31:18

seating, my whole family can head deep

31:20

into the wild. Conquer the weekend in

31:22

the all-new Hyundai Santa Fe.

31:25

Visit hyundaiusa.com or call 562-314-4603 for

31:29

more details. Hyundai, there's

31:31

joy in every journey. This

31:33

episode is brought to you by Lincoln in the all-new

31:35

2024 Nautilus Hybrid. Featuring

31:39

customizable 48-inch panoramic display,

31:41

available Revo audio system,

31:44

and available perfect position front seats

31:46

with active motion massage. Oh my

31:48

God, the world isn't wide enough. Visit

31:51

lincoln.com to learn more. Some models, trims, and

31:53

features may not be available or may be

31:55

subject to change. Check with your

31:58

local retailer for current information. Lincoln

32:00

and Nautilus are trademarks of Ford or

32:03

its affiliates. Here's a provocative

32:05

question I want to give you because you talk a lot about

32:08

you know the movement in your book. You talked about

32:10

some of the families in Mississippi I think and some

32:13

of the Black families and how

32:15

great some of those people were and it really struck

32:17

me that one thing where you talked about them

32:20

having a gun at each window, you

32:22

know a rifle as a means

32:25

of protection like you know

32:27

y'all got the non-violent thing good for

32:29

you but we're gonna protect ourselves. I

32:32

thought that was very very very interesting

32:34

and I thought should you know

32:36

as we know the Black Panther Party kind

32:38

of started as a kind of a gun

32:40

rights movement too you know of

32:43

Blacks having some autonomy in defending themselves right from

32:45

the police and that kind of thing. Yeah it

32:47

went versatile it also started as a place where

32:49

they wanted kids to have books and lunch. Absolutely

32:53

but the publicity they got first was when

32:55

they were armed in the steps of city

32:57

hall that's when we first were seeing images

32:59

of them yeah. Have you seen King of

33:01

the Wilderness by chance? It's a great documentary

33:03

my dad's actually in it but

33:05

it kind of it talks about the divergent

33:07

thoughts and ideology and in the book I

33:10

mentioned that they're all necessary but

33:12

my doctor and my daddy

33:14

and Stokely and H. Rapp and Judy

33:16

Richardson they weren't certainly on the same

33:19

wavelength as Ralph

33:21

David Abernathy and King but I argue that

33:24

they were all necessary right? Yes. You had

33:26

to have people who wanted to go inside

33:28

a system and deconstruct it and you had

33:30

to have who were willing to throw a

33:32

rock through a window. That's right it was

33:35

the type of rock throwing through windows which

33:37

was a little different though it wasn't. Yeah

33:39

usually it was it was a sheet or

33:41

a piece of paper in a bottle that

33:43

had a flame on the end of it.

33:46

I would argue though just like I

33:48

was in the legislature right

33:51

trying to deconstruct the system from within it was

33:53

also necessary to have Black Lives Matter in the

33:55

streets right? Just for every

33:57

Julian Bond who was in the Georgia State Senate you

33:59

are. who also had to have a Cleveland

34:01

sellers who was a member of snake on the outside. Right.

34:04

I just think that we have to put pressure on it.

34:06

And there's so many lessons to be learned. Um,

34:08

but also, back

34:12

to your Venn diagram of this discussion, Dr.

34:15

King wasn't as docile as white folk make them out to

34:17

be either. People treat Dr.

34:20

King like he was just some

34:22

docile creature. Dr. King was a rabbit revolutionary.

34:25

I like to look back at what Dr.

34:27

King was doing in Memphis, Tennessee when he

34:29

was assassinated. Like if

34:31

you look at the, at the way

34:33

that sanitation worker died, like he was

34:36

run over. The conditions were terrible. It

34:38

was, they didn't have any money. They

34:40

weren't getting wages and you have

34:42

a Nobel peace prize winner. One of the greatest

34:44

men to walk the earth going to stand shoulder

34:46

to shoulder with sanitation workers. Right. That's

34:49

nuts. And that just shows you

34:51

what type of person he really was. Right. Now

34:54

what do you think would happen? This is more of

34:57

a hypothetical. If violence had been

34:59

a part of that movement, for instance, you

35:01

know, when black churches, cause I think a

35:04

whole documentary could be made about the number

35:06

of black churches that were destroyed. You know,

35:08

you talk about COVID destroying black

35:10

churches. Well black churches were actually physically

35:12

destroyed during that time. But

35:14

you know, racist people. Um, but

35:17

what if white churches have been attacked during

35:19

that time? Like every time a black church

35:21

was destroyed, a black church was

35:24

bombed. Like, like if violence, and there

35:26

was some leaders back then, you know,

35:28

who were saying, that's the approach that

35:30

you use. This was my whole reason

35:32

of bringing up the gun thing, you

35:34

know, what, what would

35:36

have been, what would have happened? Like, like,

35:39

were young people see that moment and say,

35:41

how come black people didn't fight back in

35:43

that way? I think because black people understood

35:45

what the goal was and they wanted to use

35:48

the mechanisms to get to the goal and burning

35:50

down a church would not get you to your

35:52

goal. Right. Period. They utilize methods and means that

35:54

they found to be essential to get to a

35:56

goal. And they also had quality leadership, which wouldn't

35:59

let them go out. and do that. Ella Baker

36:01

and Fannie Lou Hamer would not allow them to

36:03

go down that path as leaders of a movement.

36:05

Yeah, it is interesting to think of

36:07

if some some rogue movement would have

36:10

done something like that, you know, you know,

36:12

when King with the sanitation

36:14

workers, I think that was part of the

36:16

poor people's movement, I think. You had the

36:18

poor people's movement afterwards after he died, you

36:20

had kind of Operation Bread Basket pick that

36:23

up. Operation Bread Basket. So do

36:25

you think class isn't talked about enough sometimes

36:27

in the Black struggle? Well, a book I

36:29

actually talk about, I think one of the

36:31

greatest individuals of our generation, one of the

36:33

greatest men of our generation is Rev. Dr.

36:35

William Barber. And he's

36:37

somebody who makes the argument that if

36:39

you articulate solutions to the poor whites

36:42

in Appalachia, then

36:44

you can have a movement that would resonate with

36:46

the poor whites in Appalachia and the poor

36:48

blacks of Mississippi. And

36:52

that we have to begin to bring people together along

36:54

those lines. And I don't think he's wrong. And we

36:56

go down and list the things that he lays out

36:59

as a plan for the future, you

37:01

know, around things like access to quality

37:03

health care and first class education and

37:05

that's just where we are. Right. So when we talk about,

37:08

you know, the problems of Black life, are we making

37:11

kind of a class argument here about Black

37:13

life as opposed to this is a color

37:15

argument? I mean, it's hard to separate the

37:18

two because there's a direct correlation between being

37:20

poor in this country and being brown and

37:22

black. But I do

37:25

think a class argument is something to

37:27

be made, particularly in the political space

37:30

to help us move forward and build a coalition. Yeah,

37:32

because I mean, shouldn't we also acknowledge that a lot

37:34

of progress has been made with blacks

37:37

in middle class, even blacks being educated? That's why

37:39

a student loan forgiveness

37:41

is so important to blacks too, because

37:43

there are even more blacks being educated

37:45

now than maybe was a couple of

37:47

generations ago or black or black mobility,

37:49

you know, as opposed to just black

37:51

government assistance. You bring up

37:54

a good point, because in the

37:56

book, I highlight the fact and I love your thoughts on this,

37:58

that we have a

38:01

bunch of race specific problems. But

38:03

my white liberals like to believe rising

38:06

tides lift all boats. And

38:08

they put forth race neutral policy.

38:11

For example, COVID relief, black

38:14

folk were decimated by COVID from

38:17

a public health perspective and an economic perspective, decimated.

38:21

Now you would think that you

38:23

would direct relief to

38:25

areas that were hit the hardest instead of

38:27

this rising tide kind of lift all boats.

38:30

Do you know that there are black people in

38:32

this country a large amount who are unbanked? Like

38:35

literally don't have a bank account. Right,

38:37

the check cashing place is the bank.

38:39

Yeah, correct. And

38:42

we're missing, you know, another example is

38:44

African-American female mortality. Black women are

38:47

three times more likely to die doing childbirth than

38:49

white women. If we're so vastly unbanked, why don't

38:51

we just get banked? Well, that's not that easy.

38:53

Why? I mean, cause people have to, I mean,

38:55

if people have to have access, people have to, you

38:57

know, they have to have a job, they

39:00

have to have access, they have to have, you know,

39:02

that first of all, we have to have that financial

39:04

literacy that's taught to them. Can

39:06

I give you an example of how I learned about credit?

39:08

How did you learn about credit, Larry? From my

39:10

parents? My dad, you remember when they

39:12

used to mail you credit cards? Oh yeah, absolutely. My

39:15

dad took those credit cards and cut them up in front of

39:17

us and said that if you don't have any money, you

39:20

shouldn't buy it. So that's why when I graduated from

39:22

Morehouse, my credit school was five, 10. Okay.

39:26

All right. So I

39:29

didn't even know how to, you know, there were certain people in

39:31

my, in my class that had a

39:33

little credit card and their parents were, you

39:35

know, $300 a month or whatever,

39:38

helped them build their credit. That's how I was

39:40

taught about credit. So when you talk about financial

39:42

literacy and why don't people get a bank, many

39:44

times it's not that easy. But

39:47

you know, when you're going through this process, my

39:49

retort to you is that we have to meet

39:51

people where they are. And like,

39:53

this goes back to my argument. I don't think

39:55

the black middle class has a problem knowing what

39:57

credit cards are or how important credit is. that

40:00

once again is a class issue, if

40:02

people are unbanked, you

40:04

know, or don't have

40:07

that conversation about that, you know,

40:09

that is more of a

40:11

culture of that, don't you think? I

40:14

would argue that, yeah. I mean, I think that that

40:16

is a legitimate argument. I think it's cultural. Because I

40:18

know many poor people, we didn't have a lot of

40:20

money growing up, but I knew how important it was

40:22

to, you had to balance a checkbook, you know, those

40:24

sort of things, you had to pay for things. There's

40:26

financial literacy in terms of the value of

40:28

money, like you talk about, and, you

40:31

know, you need money to pay for things. That

40:34

was the lesson that

40:36

I learned, okay? Yes, and you

40:38

had to work to get that money. And you had to

40:41

work hard as hell. And you had to

40:43

save your money in order to use that money. Let

40:45

me tell you a funny story. Like, you know, one

40:47

of my dad's best friends was a

40:49

young man named James Brown. And

40:52

James and my dad were really, really close. By

40:55

the way, one of the greatest concerts ever

40:57

in the history of mankind was in Cambridge,

40:59

Massachusetts. The night Dr. King was

41:01

killed, James Brown gave a concert and they

41:04

say that the concert he gave up for

41:06

free was the reason the city didn't burn

41:08

down. Oh, wow, I didn't know

41:10

that, wow. But James and my dad

41:12

were really close. And James was

41:14

a friend of the movement. He was also from

41:16

South Carolina. As

41:18

I got older, like his mom was in a nursing

41:20

home and used to live in Bamberg, South Carolina, I'm

41:22

from Denmark, he's six miles away. He used to come

41:25

through and his limousine and hand out $100 bills to

41:27

people and kids. That's hilarious, I can

41:29

picture that, that's great. One time

41:31

James was in prison, not jail,

41:34

but prison. So my daddy went

41:36

to visit his friend James and he took me. It

41:39

was the Columbia Correctional Institute, CCI. And,

41:43

you know, it was funny because

41:47

my dad had been in there before. My dad had

41:49

been housed on death row, right? After

41:52

the Orange Rock Massacre, they housed him in there while he

41:54

was awaiting his bond. But he took me in

41:56

there in a little sitting area where the families meet. I don't know

41:58

if you've ever been in a prison before. But

42:00

it's like an open cafeteria area with

42:02

like little sectional tables And

42:05

so James came out and his

42:07

hair was not permed. Yeah It

42:10

was just kind of long in the shovel James

42:13

looked at me and he looked at my dad. He said I send that

42:15

boy home. Send that boy home I was like

42:17

six or seven and then he

42:19

looked at me and he said uh He said

42:21

a little little CL you think a million

42:23

dollars is a lot of money? And

42:26

I was like, yes, sir. Mr. Brown. He said no, it's not

42:29

He said no, it's not they gonna try to take it from

42:31

you He said find your favorite tree and bury your first

42:34

million dollars by your tree And

42:38

I had to go sit in the station wagon Against

42:40

the fence in the back in the shade with

42:42

the windows crack in the parking lot at Columbia

42:44

Correctional Institute So that's how

42:46

I learned about money. All right, mr. Bremoral

42:48

of the story go to prison guys Find

42:51

someone in prison that can teach

42:54

you about financial literacy Yeah,

42:57

and go go to James Brown's property

42:59

and dig around With

43:03

the W You

43:07

know, it's it's the you open your book Talking

43:11

about the value

43:13

of celebrities in activism and Sydney

43:16

party and man, by the way sitting pretty in

43:18

here about font a what a do a duo

43:20

they were I mean, can you imagine them showing

43:22

up to pay your bond people would be at

43:24

the gym like I mean Today

43:29

there'd be all these selfies, you know I

43:32

will tell you this this is what I told

43:34

like people don't know Beyonce and Jay-Z Build

43:37

out a lot of black lives matters protesters particularly

43:39

the ones in Baton Rouge when they were protesting

43:42

Yeah, nobody knows it like yeah,

43:44

like and my dad loves talking about Kanye

43:46

West. Well Kanye West do this I'm like

43:48

daddy Kanye is gone. He's also Our

43:51

dropout College

43:55

dropout, I think we are in

43:57

agreement because we are in agreement

44:00

I was talking about it as a classic, right? And

44:02

we... Oh, absolutely. Thousand percent. And

44:04

it's funny because the reason that we give

44:06

Kanye West, I don't, but people give him

44:08

so much... I don't either. Because they want

44:11

to fill that again with... Yeah,

44:13

he probably... Or talent gets you more runway

44:15

of grace in this country. Period.

44:18

Mm-hmm. What is

44:20

the role of... Is

44:23

it celebrities, prominent people? What is

44:25

that role? Is that

44:27

one of the keys to... Do you

44:29

think of getting people energized

44:31

about things? Or is it just more functional,

44:34

like helping people get out of jams or

44:36

that type of thing? It's functional and it

44:38

takes a level of inquiry, inquisitiveness.

44:42

I think that John Legend and Kerry Washington, I utilize

44:45

her as an example all the time. They do a

44:47

lot. It's amazing how much they do.

44:49

They know they have the means and the platform to

44:51

do whatever's necessary. I don't know where Kerry finds the

44:53

time. It's amazing how much she does. Oh, and then

44:55

shout out to Kerry and also shout out to her

44:58

amazing husband. I had

45:00

him on my podcast as well. Lucky as... Earth.

45:04

Man, that hits a power ball. I don't even know

45:06

anything. Lucky as man. But

45:08

very good guy. But if you asked them, if you

45:11

were like, I need a plane to get to this

45:13

route, this case, they'll send you a plane. I need

45:15

help getting them out of jail. They'll do that. I

45:17

need a message talking about this. They'll do that. And

45:19

they always inquire about what they can do. This

45:23

is a funny combination. You wanna hear a combination?

45:25

I'll come to the green room in South Carolina

45:27

State, January of 2008 for a rally for Barack

45:29

Obama. And sitting down in the green room was

45:32

Kerry Washington and Chris Tucker. Oh,

45:34

that's amazing. Really laughing, having a ball. And

45:36

then before Barack Obama gets

45:38

there, in comes Usher. So it's me,

45:40

Kerry Washington, Chris Tucker and Usher waiting

45:43

on Barack Obama. And we go

45:45

out there and have this rally in Little Orangeburg, South

45:47

Carolina. And I'm on stage, all of them. And

45:49

it was the dopest thing

45:51

ever. And it was just, you

45:53

talk about that mixture of activism and

45:56

celebrity and wealth. And

45:58

it was people coming together trying to get this black man elected. in the

46:00

great state of South Carolina. Yeah, that's great.

46:02

I love that. You know, images I think

46:04

are important. And for people to be able

46:06

to relate, this goes back to our relatability

46:08

thing, you know, about who's leading the charge

46:10

and everything. What do you think though, is

46:12

there one issue that is more

46:15

important than any issue when we're talking about

46:17

the black community, and we're talking about improving

46:19

people's lives? If we're gonna, if

46:21

there's something that is easier maybe to translate

46:24

to people, to get them off that couch

46:26

as we're talking about, what is that issue?

46:29

It's not an issue. I wish it was that easy. My

46:32

wife nearly died in childbirth, which is, this is why this

46:35

is the time I brought up African-American

46:37

female mortality. That's my number one political

46:39

issue. My wife lost seven

46:41

units of blood. She only had nine while

46:43

she was giving birth to our twins. She

46:45

spent 36 hours of their life in ICU.

46:47

But for the fact that we had three

46:49

black doctors, my wife would have died. So

46:52

that's my number one political issue. I don't

46:54

think there's a singular issue. I am very

46:56

passionate about the way that you're violently mis-educating

46:58

children in this country. I

47:01

am upset about the fact that hospitals in

47:03

rural, in certain places

47:05

in South Carolina, you have to go over an

47:07

hour to find a OBGYN. Yeah,

47:09

that's crazy. You gotta go over an hour to get

47:11

to a hospital. If you have a heart attack, that's

47:14

a death sentence. Yeah, that's terrible. By the infrastructure in

47:16

this country, let's talk about the pipes in this country.

47:18

I mean, just pipes, right?

47:21

That people are drinking bad water because the pipes

47:23

are bad. So I don't think there's

47:25

a singular issue. I

47:29

think somebody just has to really act like they

47:31

give a damn. Once again, that's the vacuum kind

47:33

of I'm talking about. You seem

47:35

relatively pessimistic about Washington DC, Larry.

47:38

Well, I'm pessimistic about leadership,

47:40

Bakari. That's what I'm pessimistic about. I

47:42

don't believe it necessarily always has to

47:44

be the most qualified or the best

47:47

person. I just think sometimes

47:49

the figurehead needs to be somebody to

47:51

inspire us. I

47:53

think when you think about John F.

47:56

Kennedy, his biggest legacy was

47:58

the impact he had on people. just

48:00

by inspiring them, you know, like something

48:02

like you could argue the Peace Corps

48:04

may have been the most important thing

48:06

that he did in terms of inspiring

48:09

young people, you know, and also look

48:11

the part though. I mean, I just

48:13

very simple here. Like, he just know

48:15

you're right. I'm agreeing with you. But

48:17

his suits look good. I'm I'm agreeing.

48:19

This is why I'm very upset about

48:22

the Democratic Party not passing the baton

48:24

because I think relatability being able to

48:26

empathize, you know, being able to relate

48:28

to people, not just telling them what

48:30

you did and dictating. Let me go bar about

48:32

there because I'm on my I believe that I

48:34

believe that Cat Williams, when he sat

48:36

down with Shannon Sharp opened up a vortex that

48:39

is on fire these days. I

48:43

love this reference. Yeah, but I'm bringing it all the

48:45

way back to nerdy politics. I would like for somebody

48:47

to tell Gavin Newsom that he is not John F.

48:49

Kennedy. Right. Right. Well, okay. There is a there is

48:52

a gulf between those two. And

48:54

while we were talking about that superficial point,

48:56

we need somebody who can mix that gravitas,

48:58

damn, to come all the way back full

49:00

circle with some level of authenticity. Yes. But,

49:03

you know, I will tell you this. Gavin

49:05

Newsom is probably the smartest man and the

49:07

most beautiful man in the room. All you

49:09

got to do is ask. Yeah. He's very

49:13

talented politically. He seems a little thin to me,

49:15

though. But when he walks

49:17

in a room, it's an air of it's

49:19

as if the room is supposed to be

49:21

his. It doesn't seem to want to work

49:24

to earn that room. We think Kamala fits

49:26

in and all this Kamala Harris, our vice

49:28

president. I had so much

49:30

hope for Kamala in terms of this area,

49:32

you know, and I'm

49:35

I'm concerned about, you know,

49:37

well, I don't know, I'd

49:39

like to hear your opinion on it before

49:41

I'm biased. You know, I'm biased. She's a

49:43

very good friend of mine. I adore Kamala.

49:45

I think that she is very, very talented.

49:48

I think that the hope is not misplaced.

49:51

I think that she's not there. That's

49:53

a fair analysis. But I think she can get there. I

49:57

think she was given terrible, terrible assignments. And I

49:59

said, as much. How are you

50:01

going to give the vice president of the United States

50:03

immigration and voting rights? No one, neither one of them

50:05

are going to pass. Right. So my pushback on that,

50:07

because that's my job, you know, that's what I do

50:09

because I like talking to people like you. You know,

50:11

you don't have to be devil's advocate all the time.

50:13

The devil don't need no. I'm not being devil's advocate.

50:15

I'm keeping it real. Was that she also had a

50:19

campaign before all this happened and she

50:21

failed to ignite an electorate, you know,

50:25

and that to me is where I'm looking at.

50:27

I'm not looking at the vice. I don't think

50:29

it's the job of the vice president to garner

50:32

support from people and be popular and all that

50:34

stuff. So I don't give her demerits as a

50:36

vice president, you know, but I'm hoping like, is

50:38

she someone that can emerge? So to me, it's

50:40

more of a can it happen conversation. But

50:43

I will, I will say the

50:45

bad check marks came from her campaign

50:48

is what I'm saying. I think the

50:50

campaign was a function of more of

50:52

the people around her than her. I agree. That

50:54

was Al Gore's problem, by the way, you know,

50:57

and back once again to authenticity thing,

50:59

because I feel that Kamala was fantastic

51:01

when she was on the Senate hearing

51:04

and she she seemed to be in

51:06

her lane and herself and the way

51:08

that, you know, this is a

51:11

woman who can prosecute, you know, she can

51:13

go after something, you know, with that

51:15

type of energy. Like I like to

51:17

see the badass woman up there, you

51:19

know, that's and to me, I find

51:21

that inspirational. You know, do you think there's

51:24

a version of that out there that can

51:26

possibly be that next thing that

51:28

we can look forward to in the party? So

51:30

I don't think that that's the way that you

51:32

choose it. I don't think that you just say,

51:35

Oh, look, there's such and such. He's going to

51:37

be next. I think there's going

51:39

to be a robust race for president

51:41

of the United States. People like Pete

51:43

Buttigieg, people like Kamala Harris, people like

51:45

Mayor Landrieu from the former mayor of

51:47

New Orleans, you'll have Gavin come out

51:49

there. Maybe he will ignite something. Maybe

51:52

he'll get to a place where we're not

51:54

sure. I honestly believe if it's

51:56

not Kamala Harris, my ticket that I would

51:58

love to see. would be

52:00

Raphael Warnock and Gretchen Whitmer. I

52:03

love that ticket. Beautiful ticket.

52:05

I'm like,

52:07

we'll see. I mean, let them have a

52:09

Royal Rumble. You can't choose the winner of

52:12

the Royal Rumble before it starts. Sure you

52:14

can. You know, cause it's all conjecture. Trump

52:20

gonna win? No. Why

52:22

not? The fundamentals of

52:24

the race. Trump has a very low ceiling high floor.

52:26

He's a 40% candidate.

52:29

This race is going to come down to the

52:32

suburbs of Phoenix, Clark

52:35

County, suburbs of

52:37

Pennsylvania, of Philadelphia, Detroit,

52:40

Wayne County, Milwaukee,

52:43

Raleigh, Durham, North Carolina, Atlanta,

52:45

Georgia. And I just think

52:47

when you look at it in that very small bubble

52:49

along the way, I'm not sure if Joe Biden's going

52:51

to be able to give them a vision and ignite

52:54

them, but around the edges, particularly

52:56

college educated white women with the troubles

52:58

and who Donald Trump is, that support

53:00

that he has will continue to erode. Do you

53:02

think some of the white women who voted for

53:04

Trump, because of

53:07

the abortion issue, like some of those may

53:09

peel off and vote for Biden? Yes. You

53:12

saw abortion win in Kansas. We're

53:15

not talking about like New York. We're

53:17

talking about Kansas and

53:19

Ohio. So the

53:21

election is going to be something, it's going to

53:23

be exhausting. But for people like us, it's

53:26

going to be fun to watch. I mean, this

53:28

is like a weird ass, you

53:31

know, circus. I know. Well, we'll

53:34

have a front row seat for sure. And I know you

53:36

will hear my last observation on this, and I appreciate you

53:38

taking the time because it's always so great talking to you.

53:40

And this, you know, we can veer off

53:42

on so many different things. But

53:44

my whole take on the Trump thing is versus

53:47

Biden, looking at it from a

53:49

binary point of view here, is to me the

53:52

hardest thing about Biden getting elected

53:54

to me is it still feels

53:57

like an anti-Trump vote. That's what it's still feels

53:59

like to me, which in 2020 really seemed to

54:02

work, you know, for a lot of different reasons.

54:04

And I think COVID had a lot to do

54:06

with that also too. You know, when you ask

54:08

people this question in polling, that should be very

54:10

cautious because people ask the question, are you better

54:12

off now than you were four years ago? And

54:14

usually the answer is no. And

54:17

the reason that they say that is because it was

54:20

pre-COVID and their lives were just people's lives

54:22

and people don't realize what Joe Biden is

54:24

trying to bring us from the

54:27

world's top. And, you know,

54:29

there are a lot of things we can be talking

54:31

about him doing differently, but he's done, if he's done

54:33

anything good, he's done good leading us out of that

54:35

doldrum of COVID. Right. But as you say,

54:38

he's not really getting credit for achievements, you

54:40

know, so that he's not shining in that

54:42

area, let's just say, you know, because the

54:44

people are, there's no rally behind Biden that

54:46

he brought us back from something that does

54:48

it. That energy doesn't feel like that's out

54:50

there. Yeah. And, you know, I talked to,

54:52

talked to Charlamagne all the time. And one

54:54

of the things Charlamagne's like, you know, one

54:56

of the most brilliant things that Donald Trump

54:58

did was put his name on those, on

55:00

those stimulus checks. Absolutely. And I'm like, you're

55:02

right. Because people don't even know Biden's and

55:04

them checks. That's part of Trump's genius. Yeah.

55:06

No, that's part of his genius. And

55:08

he made sure that I remember he made sure that I

55:11

remember that. And I was like, Oh man, this

55:14

is genius. People

55:16

remember things like that, you know, but

55:18

I also think here's what's interesting too. Cause

55:21

I was thinking of, you know, when Steven

55:23

A. Smith was talking about, you know,

55:25

black people relating to Trump over the

55:27

whole, that's your boy. No, whatever that

55:30

was, you know, which was not, you

55:32

know, it just wasn't thought through.

55:34

I think that that analogy, cause Trump is

55:36

using that analogy in a real stupid

55:38

way to try that. He always relates to black

55:40

people that way anyway. So that's what he looks

55:43

for. He looks for the least common denominator. Right.

55:45

And criminal reform. That's how he's getting really to

55:47

black people through the criminal system.

55:49

Right. Cause we're going all right. But

55:51

to me, it actually does work for a

55:53

lot of white people. They actually are

55:55

the ones that are feeling persecuted. That's why

55:57

I call Steven A. Smith a youth. because

56:00

they utilize people like Stephen A. Smith, they utilize Candace Owens,

56:04

they utilize Ice Cube and Jason Whitlock to say,

56:07

look, there's a Negro who believes in this

56:09

too. So therefore we have to

56:11

reinforce it and then the silo and

56:13

they're a part of this silo that reinforces these

56:16

negative images and stereotypes and white folk are

56:18

like, there you have it. Well,

56:21

I'm not gonna call Stephen an idiot in this, but to

56:23

me, I said usefully. I understand,

56:25

but I'm kind of making a different point is

56:28

that it's not so much

56:30

that convincing people that this is why

56:32

black people should vote for Trump. To

56:34

me, this reinforces the white

56:36

grievance thing that you were talking about earlier.

56:39

This is how that occurs, the emotions of

56:41

this. Like for instance, a lot

56:43

of the energy towards Trump is they

56:45

feel he was wronged, not just by these

56:47

trials, which I believe is gonna play a

56:49

big part in this too, in the positive

56:52

for Trump, not the negative, but

56:54

they feel something was stolen from them. Like

56:57

imagine if Obama had lost to

57:00

Romney and we felt like the

57:02

election was stolen, like

57:04

there were some questions, that

57:07

we just felt that way emotionally. And

57:10

if Obama kind of

57:12

intimated that he felt it wasn't fair,

57:14

whatever, that something was stolen from, how

57:16

much energy would be pro Obama coming

57:18

back in that

57:20

next election? It would be huge. But

57:22

we just through that too now, but we just

57:25

then go like jump over the wall of the

57:27

Capitol. Al Gore went through that. We thought our

57:29

Lord got the election stolen. No, but he didn't

57:31

run again in 2004. No,

57:34

he didn't run again, but I'm just saying that what?

57:36

But Al Gore is not Obama. We're talking about a

57:38

sitting president. Here's

57:41

why I'm making this analogy, because the energy behind

57:43

Obama from black people is the maggot

57:45

energy behind Trump. That's the same

57:47

type of energy. I don't disagree, but there's certain

57:49

limitations to that. Do

57:51

you think that I could get a thousand people right

57:53

now to go storm the Capitol? They'd be like black

57:56

folks. They'd be like... When I talk about storming the

57:58

Capitol, we're talking about voting. Voting. Okay, that's

58:00

fair. I think you're right. I'm talking about that

58:02

kind of act. I'm talking about both I agree

58:05

with you and then of course, but we're talking

58:07

about voting for somebody you felt like your candidate

58:09

was done wrong And I'm saying

58:11

you come out with a video. Yeah, they're

58:13

connected to him emotionally, which is what I'm

58:15

talking about You don't say that energy to

58:18

me is stronger than anti energy that Trump

58:20

is evil. He's a rapist He's a this

58:22

he's a that that's all I'm saying. I

58:24

agree with you. Now. You're right. I think you're right now that

58:26

we sorted through your analogy I think you're correct Why

58:30

is my analogy so weak? It was very clear

58:35

Last one, what's the biggest lesson of the past? To

58:39

help make for a better future because

58:41

and by the way the moment there's so much great

58:45

Things in here you guys this book is so

58:47

good to go There's so many details in here which

58:49

you know when I have time about

58:51

the movement and that kind of stuff and talking about Stokely Who

58:53

I was a big fan of too I

58:55

really appreciate that but is there a big

58:57

lesson from that past movement That

59:00

we can learn now to make our

59:02

future better young people Young

59:05

people are gonna change the world every movement in this country

59:07

has been led by young people And sometimes

59:09

we got to get out the way. I find a

59:11

lot of hope in this generation As

59:14

Millennials, we're now parents and it's

59:16

weird trying to make sure that we make

59:18

a better tomorrow for

59:21

Sadie and Stokely But

59:23

I know that it's dark right now and I

59:26

just want tomorrow to be better than yesterday All right,

59:28

young people you heard that it's on you. You

59:30

guys got it. Go do it

59:32

That's what Bakari says we're gonna listen to him

59:34

and get these old people out of the way

59:39

Are we gonna make some change happen, you know, I

59:41

love you Larry you're the you're one of the best

59:44

This is one of the best podcasts. I love you

59:46

Bakari and I want people to go get your book

59:48

the moment Please read it. You know Bakari is brilliant

59:51

Keep telling you that but also watch them on

59:53

CNN this year, especially there's so much great commentary

59:55

And I appreciate you on television all the time

59:57

because thanks so much for being here. Really We

1:00:00

appreciate it. All right now, have a great day.