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more. On

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Last Word this week, the campaigner

0:52

for evidence-based medicine Caroline Richmond, the

0:54

typographer Phil Baines and the manager

0:56

of the England women's cricket team

0:59

Norma Isard. But first,

1:01

the man behind this familiar sound. By

1:03

the rivers of Farbillon,

1:07

where we sat down,

1:12

yeah we will,

1:15

when we remember Zion.

1:19

Frank Farion was the German music producer

1:21

who worked not just with Boney M

1:24

but also with artists like Stevie Wonder

1:26

and Meatloaf, in the process selling

1:28

an estimated 800 million records. But

1:31

he was a controversial figure because not

1:34

all the performers in his bands were

1:36

actually singing. One person

1:38

whose voice was heard was the Boney

1:40

M singer Liz Mitchell. She says

1:42

it was Frank who put the group together. Most

1:45

groups are formed either in a

1:47

garage somewhere or a group of

1:49

people coming together and deciding they

1:51

want to do music

1:54

together. Whereas in our case

1:56

with Boney M it was not like that. Aaron

2:00

had received some music from the

2:02

Caribbean, from Jamaica. There

2:04

was one track, Al

2:06

Capone, that Frank re-produced

2:09

and re-titled it and called it

2:11

Baby Do You Wanna Fall. And

2:22

now Frank wanted the dancers.

2:25

And this is basically how the

2:27

whole idea was built. So

2:29

there was Maisie and Bobby, there was

2:31

Liz and Marcia. And

2:34

Liz and Marcia were the two singers and Maisie

2:36

and Bobby were not singing, is that right? Well

2:39

Bobby was not a singer, Bobby was

2:41

a dancer and Maisie was

2:43

a dancer. They were hired as

2:46

dancers originally. But am I right

2:48

in thinking that Frank himself is

2:51

often the male voice that we hear

2:53

on the hit records? Yes you are

2:55

because he's the male voice that did

2:58

the Baby Do You Wanna Bump. And

3:03

many of the other ones as well like Raspy Tin

3:05

and so on. He did the

3:07

Baby Do You Wanna Bump. We tried

3:09

to get Bobby to do it but

3:11

the sound was different. He wanted that

3:13

particular sound. So when we

3:15

did Daddy Call, Bobby couldn't get the sound

3:18

the way he wanted it. Oh Maa Baker

3:20

for that matter. So he did it. I'm

3:24

not sure if he

3:26

needed to have that. He

3:38

felt he wanted to do it because he liked

3:40

the sound that he was doing. I

3:43

think he was good at hearing

3:45

what the artist, that particular artist

3:47

had to give. And

3:50

with me he pulled so much out of me. I

3:53

was free to sing with him. Not

3:56

every person who is standing on the other

3:58

side of the desk can Get it.. Me

4:00

to think. I get.

4:03

Emotional. I get shy, I get worried

4:05

up in secure of that shorts and

4:07

it was not just the thing or

4:09

I think he did this with the

4:11

musician. He. Was able

4:14

to relax them and make them

4:16

think that there were the greatest.

4:19

Though. They would give. So.

4:21

He gave you the confidence to

4:23

do your best work. Absolutely absolutely.

4:25

And what happened when Bernie I'm

4:27

went out lies how did you

4:29

reproduce the sound that Frank have

4:31

created in the studio That with

4:33

of the fun part in Nineteen

4:35

Seventy Seven I spoke with M

4:37

one of our sort of them

4:39

managers and he said to me

4:41

it's not possible because Bobby does

4:43

not thing and neither does made

4:45

the. Am so don't see how

4:47

you can do that because at the moment

4:49

you are you in the you have to

4:51

use the have play back where the backing

4:53

vocals already on their which backing vocals were

4:56

done by me and my feels right so

4:58

so it in a nightclub it was just

5:00

using a backing track of your own voices

5:02

and then you would sing over them live

5:04

Yeah. Of course we

5:06

were successful, people loved what we did

5:08

it and our records were selling like

5:10

you know on believe of people loved

5:12

it and I told frankly could choose

5:14

we could use three or four backing

5:17

vocals. And the would

5:19

be able to do the shows life. Despite.

5:21

It being widely known that any

5:23

half the band was singing benny

5:25

I'm Were a huge success. They

5:27

sold some one hundred million records

5:29

before they split up in Nineteen

5:31

Eighty Six, Frank Been created the

5:34

duo Many Vanilla recruiting Fab More

5:36

Than and Rob Colossus to were

5:38

outrageous costumes and front the project.

5:40

In a Bbc interview from Twenty

5:42

A Fab recalled how it began.

5:44

Movie. Gotten to the relationship. We.

5:47

Had no idea what kind of person

5:49

he was and how he operated. It

5:51

took some time for a second, a

5:53

Sega route or he moved and anna

5:56

like when he was thinking it took

5:58

it was a process. So. At

6:00

first, you

6:02

know, there was a whole trap that was

6:04

set that we didn't know about. The only

6:06

thing they were really looking for

6:09

was two guys who could perform and who

6:11

looked great. They knew that we

6:13

could perform, we could sing, they knew

6:15

that. But the only thing it was

6:17

really after was what they looked like,

6:19

can they perform? Do they fit the

6:21

puzzle that I'm putting together, this plan

6:24

that he was putting together? Frank

6:27

felt that Rob and Fab's voices didn't

6:29

create the sound he wanted for Millie

6:31

Vanilli, so he recruited two session singers,

6:34

John Davis and Brad Howell, to record

6:36

the vocals. Much as he

6:38

did with Bobby and Maisie in Boney M,

6:40

Frank then sent out Fab and Rob to

6:43

lip-sync on stage. Things

6:57

did go very well. Millie

7:06

Vanilli were a huge success with three

7:09

number ones and millions of records sold.

7:11

Then they won the Grammy Award for Best

7:14

New Artist. And

7:26

it didn't take

7:28

long. As

7:49

rumors swirled in the industry that Fab

7:51

and Rob hadn't actually performed on the

7:53

record, they demanded that Frank should let

7:55

them sing on the next album. He

7:57

refused, fired them and then went to the next album. went

8:00

public to confess that they had been

8:02

lip syncing. Never thought that Frank found

8:04

with protectors. Frank was all

8:07

about himself. The story made headlines

8:09

around the world. Millie Vanilli were

8:11

made to return their Grammy award.

8:13

There were numerous lawsuits and people

8:15

could claim refunds on albums and

8:17

concert tickets. But Frank

8:19

was unapologetic. It was

8:21

fantastic music. People were happy. So

8:23

what's the problem? He said. I

8:26

genuinely believe he was prepared to

8:29

have a tough time because it was

8:31

like a claim. I didn't know

8:33

what to let go of. Millie

8:35

Vanilli, he felt was something he

8:38

produced. It didn't

8:40

matter to him that he was manipulating

8:43

the artist, which

8:45

is one of the problems I

8:47

think that he suffered with over

8:50

the years with many artists is

8:52

that he, once he had

8:54

done this, baby, do you want to bump? He

8:56

never knew how to separate himself

8:59

as a producer. Baby,

9:02

do you want to bump? Baby,

9:07

do you want to bump? Produced by Frank

9:10

Faryon, who's died aged 82. Now

9:13

Caroline Richmond was the medical journalist

9:15

who co-founded the campaign against health

9:17

fraud, which is now known as

9:19

the organization HealthSense. It was

9:21

started in 1988 to challenge what

9:23

Caroline and others saw as the

9:25

sheer volume of quackery and false

9:28

claims made about people's health. Her

9:30

friend and fellow medical journalist, John Ilman,

9:32

says Caroline was a natural to lead

9:34

such a campaign. I remember when I

9:37

first met her, I met her

9:39

as a party in South London. And

9:41

there must have been about 30 or 40 people

9:43

in the room. And my eyes

9:45

immediately focused on Caroline. And I

9:47

thought, who is this woman? Because she

9:49

was wearing extremely bright clothes and

9:53

moon-shaped spectacles, which were absolutely

9:55

huge and a vivid red,

9:58

she really stood out in the crowd. In

10:00

the Nineteen eighties, there was a widespread

10:02

discussion about the effective additives in food

10:05

on people's health. Concerned. About

10:07

the confusing picture this volume of information

10:09

was presenting to the public, Caroline said

10:11

she wanted to bring a little science

10:13

into the discussion. She wrote an article

10:15

in the New Scientist Magazine saying that

10:17

been a series of fallacious claims made

10:19

about additives in food not all of

10:21

which are harmful to us, not and

10:23

while more more people are concerned today

10:25

with a healthy way of life, a

10:27

glimpse into the average weekly shopping basket

10:29

worthy of a staggering amount of food

10:31

additives which are being consumed daily. For

10:34

years said manufactures a thing saying that

10:36

they put colorings and additives into that

10:38

because it makes an attractive it's hot

10:40

consumers want that is it what consumers

10:43

want. This produce an

10:45

absolutely outraged response from various

10:47

people which left her as

10:50

he feeling i'm pretty upset.

10:52

The. Way she put it to me was

10:55

that she was going to cheer herself

10:57

up in some she invented this allergy.

10:59

To. Blue close. And she

11:01

designed to post as it She. The. Post

11:04

didn't warn people about this

11:06

allergies. A blue close. And.

11:09

The purported to come from

11:11

the die Related Allergies Bureau

11:13

in other words, from an

11:15

organization can you grab a

11:18

lot was even more sensational

11:20

was that this was described

11:22

as a subsidiary of the

11:24

Food Additives research team. In

11:27

other words, fought for his

11:30

office. A response to this

11:32

poster. Amazingly it was taken

11:34

seriously by Analogy Chassis who.

11:37

Have an astute allow room, won't

11:39

side and I suppose some people

11:41

then came forward saying that they

11:43

were allergic to blue clothes. Some.

11:45

People did indeed rights to

11:48

tower line segments. They suffered

11:50

from this particular allergy. Having

11:52

demonstrated how susceptible organizations and

11:54

individuals could be to false

11:56

information, Caroline decided they should

11:58

be and organizations. Dedicated.

12:00

To countering poorly researched oh

12:02

baseless health assertions. So began

12:05

the campaign group known as

12:07

Health Sense that came about

12:09

the only through chance. A

12:12

when she on a very

12:14

distinguished scientists cove. Vincent.

12:17

Marks with piecing together through the

12:19

meeting in London on over lunch.

12:22

Marx. Said he recognized a kindred

12:24

spirit because he was already. A

12:27

member of a similar American

12:29

organization. Anyway, Caroline got

12:31

to work. And became one

12:33

of the country's leading quite pastas. With.

12:36

Her a backlash whether those who objected to

12:38

the where the Carolina and others are carrying

12:40

out. Oh. Inevitably, Because.

12:43

Of don't you doctors didn't want

12:45

people. Challenging. Potential.

12:48

Lucrative incomes, How.

12:50

Did she respond when they fought back?

12:54

Up. She. Was a

12:56

very feisty woman. She. Was

12:58

a very determined woman. And

13:01

she. Regarded. Them

13:03

with total content. And

13:05

let them know the way that

13:08

she she felt. Caroline herself struggled

13:10

with poor health. She was diagnosed

13:12

with a muscle weakness disorder, a

13:15

arctic valve disease, the blood cancer

13:17

lymphoma, and the serious progressive brain

13:19

disorder normal pressure hydrocephalus. In Nineteen

13:22

Ninety Two, she became the center

13:24

of a public debate about consent

13:26

to medical treatment. want to hear

13:29

it? Incident involved her having a

13:31

hysterectomy without her consent. She.

13:33

Was admitted because she was

13:36

suffering from. Excessive bleeding

13:38

but consultant saw what

13:40

he thought. Was a

13:42

possible tumor and as a result

13:44

of that he went ahead and

13:47

gave her a hysterectomy. The

13:49

heavy bleeding was a place with keeping

13:51

my womb Other women to be difference

13:53

using the room with might be placement

13:56

for losing has he bleeding and so

13:58

i think the woman has. make that

14:00

decision and not the gynecologist. And

14:03

she took legal action about

14:05

that and reported the surgeon to the GMC.

14:09

Because she said that she had not consented

14:12

to that procedure before the anaesthetic. Yes indeed.

14:15

I feel that my women and my ovaries as

14:17

well for that matter are very important to me.

14:19

It's the organ that defines me as a woman and

14:22

the idea of a hysterectomy I find quite

14:24

terrific and I would rather have had heavy

14:26

bleeding than have had a hysterectomy. No

14:29

action was taken by the

14:31

GMC against the consultant. But

14:34

Caroline did go on to win £50,000 in a

14:36

separate action against the NHS. And

14:42

was it her own experiences that

14:44

drove her forward in her campaigning?

14:46

Was it that she had come

14:48

up against false information herself and

14:50

wanted to make sure that others

14:52

didn't suffer from it? I think

14:55

she was driven by an enormous

14:57

sense of wanting to achieve justice

14:59

with vulnerable people. Because it

15:01

was the vulnerable people who were

15:03

particularly susceptible to all these

15:06

alleged cures. And

15:08

she really did feel very passionate about that.

15:11

John Ilman on Caroline Richmond who's died

15:13

aged 82. Now

15:15

Phil Baines was a professor of typography

15:17

and one of the UK's leading graphic

15:19

designers. He created covers for

15:21

many different publishers, wrote several books

15:23

on aspects of typography and developed

15:26

his own fonts. He

15:28

was also given the task of designing the lettering

15:30

for the memorial in Hyde Park in London to

15:32

the victims of the July 7th 2005 bombings. Phil

15:37

was born in Kendall, in Cumbria. His

15:40

initial vocation was to become a priest. At

15:42

the age of 11 he went to a

15:45

junior seminary and then studied at Orshaw College.

15:47

But he dropped out in his

15:49

fourth year. I was always interested

15:51

in art and architecture and industrial

15:54

archaeology. And

15:56

so I knew as soon

15:58

as I decided to leave. that

16:01

I wanted to do something

16:03

in the art and design line and

16:05

that was public graphics. Phil studied

16:07

graphic design at what was then St

16:09

Martin's School of Art and took a

16:12

Masters at the Royal College of Art.

16:14

In 1988 he returned to the now

16:16

renamed Central St Martin's College of Art

16:18

and Design where he taught for many

16:20

years. This is where he

16:22

met David Pearson who was his student and

16:24

then his colleague. I first got to know

16:26

Phil Baden when he was destroying a piece

16:28

of my work in a college crit

16:31

situation. I had left

16:33

an enormous space between two

16:35

worlds and Phil broke

16:37

off from critiquing the class's work to

16:39

slowly and methodically draw a red London

16:41

bus driving through this word gap to

16:44

teach me that it was too wide.

16:46

So I

16:49

kind of fell in love with him there

16:51

and there, as we talk about this. Phil's

16:53

early religious education could often inspire his designs

16:55

but as David told me he also had

16:57

a very contemporary style. Phil was

16:59

part of the new wave of designers in the

17:01

1980s who had a very fresh outlook

17:04

about the possibilities of working with

17:06

words. It was absolutely rooted in

17:08

an experimental type of the end

17:11

medieval manuscripts and he's just this

17:13

really brilliant designer bringing the old

17:15

and the new together and then

17:17

creating something altogether new. Can

17:20

you pick out some examples of his work that stand out

17:22

for you? There's one book cover in

17:24

particular that it really flaws me

17:26

whenever I see it and it's a

17:28

Penguin Great Ideas cover for The Tower

17:30

of Nature by Chuan

17:33

Su. What Phil does is he shows

17:35

us the delicate movement through the air

17:37

of a butterfly but crucially

17:39

he's not showing us a butterfly,

17:42

he's charting its movement using lettering,

17:44

using type and we're allowed to imagine

17:47

the butterfly. It's so poetic and beautiful

17:49

with cover because we're invited in, we're

17:51

part of the dance and Phil was

17:53

really expert at that. Typography

17:56

is a code reassuring the

17:58

reader. And again, all

18:00

I really mean there is that the

18:03

reader should be under no doubt

18:05

that this texture of text is

18:08

main text, this other texture

18:10

is hot note and

18:12

this different texture is captioned. The

18:15

reader shouldn't have to fight their

18:17

way through things, finding out what

18:19

anything is. The designer

18:21

should do the hard work. Guiding

18:24

our eyes is such a huge

18:27

thing for designers, especially when creating

18:29

work in physical space. He

18:31

just really intuitively understands how lettering

18:33

should operate in space and how

18:36

it's delivered to us and

18:38

when and how easy that is, how

18:41

slow it can be, how interpretive it can be.

18:43

He understood all of those things that it made

18:45

it such an exceptional designer. You

18:48

worked on a book with him

18:50

called Penguin by Design, which is

18:52

about the cover of

18:54

Penguin books through the ages. Why

18:56

was he fascinated by the covers of Penguin

18:59

books? Well, Phil and I

19:01

had always collected Penguin books and talked

19:03

about them. So very naturally, when I

19:05

had this idea to create a history

19:07

of Penguin's design, Phil really

19:09

jumped into my mind as being someone

19:11

who would write a fair account

19:14

of Penguin's history because it's not all positive.

19:16

I think it says in the acknowledgments there

19:18

were a lot of rather

19:21

fraught email and conversational

19:24

exchanges between you. Is that true? Yes,

19:27

this was the beauty of our

19:29

relationship. I was in-house at Penguin.

19:32

Phil was out of house and

19:34

I could use Phil's incredible reputation

19:36

to curry-favour and to make moves

19:38

in-house. And Phil could use me

19:40

to say, he'd be able to say quite

19:43

bestically things to me about certain book covers

19:45

like, and then I would have to find

19:47

a filter to communicate that to

19:49

the people at Penguin. What was it like to

19:51

work with him? Phil

19:54

was tough to please and

19:56

okay from Phil would have you floating down the

19:58

street. He was so good at it. And

20:01

it wasn't just about using paper

20:03

and print, was it? I mean, he designed

20:06

in a number of different materials and he

20:08

designed some very iconic signs

20:10

including the sign for New Scotland Yard.

20:13

Phil had a very strong sense of

20:15

materiality and an appreciation for how lettering

20:17

operates in space. This is one of

20:19

the reasons why he was trusted with

20:21

such a public monument as well as

20:23

the 7th of July memorial. For example,

20:25

it consists of 52 upright stainless

20:27

steel columns, each commemorating

20:30

a lost life and carrying

20:32

relief steel letters of their

20:34

names. Phil understood how these

20:36

things should operate within space and time.

20:38

What about his teaching methods? How did

20:40

he go about teaching it? Phil

20:43

already helped to open the door

20:45

into the world of typography by

20:47

encouraging students to look at the

20:49

inherent personalities in letter forms. This

20:52

was game changing for me and I instantly

20:54

dropped any trepidation of the subject as I

20:57

imagined which letter forms might best represent joy

21:00

or anger or high or low

21:02

culture. What typeface I might marry?

21:04

It was both incredibly fun and

21:06

freeing at the same time. Fantastic.

21:08

That's a wonderful image, isn't it?

21:11

Which typeface you might marry? That's

21:13

fantastic. It was actually which

21:15

you might marry and which might be a

21:17

mistress but I don't think we could go

21:19

there. David Pearson

21:21

on Phil Baines who's died aged 65. This

21:25

week last words also go to the

21:27

Broadway star Cheetah Rivera. She had a

21:29

long and successful theatre and film career

21:31

and was known for playing Anita in

21:33

the film and stage version of West

21:35

Side Story. We also

21:38

remember Philip Bushell Matthews who represented the

21:40

West Midlands in the European Parliament for

21:42

10 years and wrote a book about

21:44

his experiences called The Gravy Train. Now

21:48

Norma Isard was the manager of the England

21:50

women's cricket team between 1984 and 1993 and

21:54

is widely acknowledged as one of the key

21:56

people who helped to elevate the women's game

21:59

to today's professionals. standard. Norma

22:01

was born in Beckenham in what was then

22:03

Kent. Her father was a policeman

22:05

who played cricket for the police team and

22:07

encouraged Norma to take up the sport from

22:09

a very early age. Dr.

22:12

Raph Nicholson is a historian of

22:14

women's cricket based at Bournemouth University.

22:17

Her dad would take her along to Nett's

22:19

because he played for the police and

22:21

he would have his fellow police officers bawling at

22:24

her in the Nett's and they couldn't get her

22:26

out. She got her first back when she

22:28

was three years old but she

22:30

made herself cricket pads out of

22:33

newspaper. By the time Norma was 17 she

22:36

was playing for the senior Kent side. She

22:38

trained as a PE teacher and was invited

22:40

to the England trials ahead of the 1957-58

22:42

tour of Australia. After a

22:47

break to raise her two sons she

22:49

returned to the sport. She saw that

22:51

the women's cricket association were advertising for

22:54

the manager of the first ever

22:56

junior England side. So

22:58

she applied to do that. Then

23:01

from there they were advertising

23:03

for a manager of the

23:05

senior England team. They wanted

23:07

applications and she wrote them a letter

23:09

and said, look, you know me, you know what

23:11

I can do. I'm not going to write you

23:13

a full application, this is my application. They

23:16

gave her the job and they were absolutely right to do

23:18

so. Was she quite

23:20

a strong character? She was, absolutely,

23:22

yes. She was nicknamed Storming Norma

23:24

by the England players that she

23:27

managed. She was quite

23:29

strict. Women's cricket at the time

23:31

that she was the manager in the

23:33

1980s and 90s was still completely amateur.

23:35

But she was trying to bring in

23:37

a little bit more of a professional

23:39

ethos. So she did things like, for

23:41

example, limiting the amount of alcohol they

23:43

could have when they were on tour.

23:45

She also introduced this quite strict 10pm

23:47

curfew. And there are some great stories

23:49

of players creeping in after hours and

23:52

her catching them and them being absolutely

23:54

terrified when she called them to

23:56

her room the next day to give them a

23:58

little bit of a talking to. and

24:01

she actually created a trophy for

24:03

the women's ashes. Was

24:05

this a series that she had conceived right

24:08

from the start? So England

24:10

had been playing Australia for a long

24:12

time. The first ever women's international

24:14

match was in December 1934. But

24:17

what they didn't have was a trophy. It

24:20

also wasn't officially the women's ashes, but

24:22

because there's the men's ashes, it

24:25

was often referred to informally as the ashes. So

24:28

Norma thought, hang on a minute, how can

24:30

we kind of formalise this idea of there

24:32

being ashes for women and actually

24:35

have a trophy? So she

24:37

rang up her friend Brian and she said, would you

24:39

be able to carve a cricket ball? So

24:42

he carved this wooden cricket ball. So

24:44

she got that. There was an England,

24:46

the Australia series taking place in

24:49

the summer of 1998. So

24:51

she gathered both the teams together at Lord's. She

24:54

borrowed a wok from

24:57

the MCC kitchens at Lord's. And

24:59

she got both teams to sign this miniature

25:01

bat and she burned this in the wok

25:03

and then put those ashes in the trophy,

25:05

in the wooden cricket ball. And

25:07

that became the women's ashes trophy. And it's

25:10

still the trophy that they're using today. I'm

25:12

at Trent Bridge. On the first day of

25:14

the women's ashes, we had a big interruption

25:17

for rain this afternoon. So we are still

25:19

playing and at the moment, Australia are 313

25:21

for six. And

25:25

England were very successful under her leadership. What

25:27

was the culmination? What was the

25:29

height of their success when she was managing them? The

25:32

height of their success was winning the

25:34

World Cup at home in the summer

25:36

of 1993. Well,

25:38

Kitten's on her way now and bowling to Campbell has

25:40

gone for a huge hit away on the onside. It

25:42

could be court and Britain's underneath it. She takes the

25:44

catch. England have won

25:46

the World Cup. Norma was

25:48

absolutely influential in that win. She

25:51

was the manager of the side

25:53

and she'd also persuaded the women's

25:55

cricket association to hire their first

25:57

ever head coach Ruth Prido. and

26:00

also doing a lot of the organisation behind the

26:02

scenes for that 1993 World Cup. So

26:05

for example, she insisted that

26:08

the players stay together between the

26:10

matches, otherwise they would have

26:12

gone back home in between and potentially back

26:14

to their jobs because they were amateur, they

26:16

were playing cricket in their spare

26:18

time. And Norma said, no, it's really important that

26:20

we're all together for the duration of the tournament. I

26:23

think that will be really important in us winning. And

26:25

another significant moment must have been when she was

26:27

one of the first 10 women to

26:30

be admitted to membership of the MCC.

26:34

How did she feel about that? What did she say

26:36

about that moment of entering the long room? She

26:38

said it was one of the greatest days of her life. I

26:41

think she'd been, in some way she'd been

26:43

waiting for it for a while because it

26:45

was actually quite incredible that they

26:47

won the World Cup at Lords in 1993, but

26:50

she wasn't allowed into the Pavilion because

26:53

she was a woman. And

26:55

her husband, Peter, was a long-standing

26:57

MCC member, and he actually apparently

26:59

joked with her and said, oh, I'm not going to tell

27:02

you whether I voted to admit you or not. But

27:05

yeah, she really regarded being

27:08

elected as one of those first female

27:10

members as a really great moment. Now,

27:13

England's women's cricket is in a very good

27:15

shape, as I understand it at the moment.

27:18

Does some of that come from her legacy?

27:20

It definitely does. It definitely does. One

27:23

of the things that she obviously did

27:25

was overseeing this merger of the Women's

27:27

Cricket Association with the England and Wales

27:29

Cricket Board in 1998. And

27:32

we've now got professional women's cricket in this

27:34

country. And I think that that potentially might

27:36

not have been possible without that merger with

27:38

the ECB. And then,

27:40

of course, there's the ongoing influence

27:42

of the women's ashes and

27:45

that trophy still being awarded

27:47

today, that wooden ball and

27:49

that idea of the women's ashes

27:52

really capturing the public imagination. And we

27:54

had we had the women's

27:56

ashes in this country last

27:58

summer and we had huge crowds. record

28:00

crowds turning up and I think that

28:02

that is partly to do with actually

28:05

recognising it formally by

28:08

saying yes it is going to be the women's

28:10

efforts. Dr. Raph Nicholson on

28:12

Norma Isard OBE who's died aged

28:14

90. This week

28:16

you also heard last words on the

28:18

typographer Professor Phil Bains, the medical journalist

28:21

Caroline Richmond and the music producer Frank

28:23

Farion. Don't forget there are hundreds of

28:25

other fascinating life stories in the Last

28:27

Word Archive on BBC Sounds.