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Full terms at mintmobile.com. On

1:07

last word this week, Lord Say and Seal, who

1:09

served in the Army during the Second World War,

1:12

then worked to restore the family's

1:14

historic seat, Broughton Castle. Also Jim

1:16

Hobson, who was Assistant Chief Constable

1:18

of West Yorkshire when the Yorkshire

1:20

Ripper was arrested. And

1:23

Susan Campbell, the illustrator who co-founded

1:25

the Walled Kitchen Garden Network. But

1:28

first, we take you back to the Golden

1:31

Age of Hollywood, as we remember Norma Bartsman,

1:33

who's died aged 103. Norma

1:36

was one of the last survivors of a

1:38

group of screenwriters forced to flee to Europe after

1:41

facing the threat of being blacklisted for

1:43

their left-wing political views. Norma

1:45

Bartsman was born in New York in 1920

1:48

into a wealthy family. She

1:51

was sent to the elite Radcliffe College and

1:53

during her junior year she got married for

1:55

the first time. But as

1:57

her friend the writer Larry Sepler told me, it wasn't until she was 18 that

1:59

she found her true love. was her second marriage

2:01

that lasted. She had been

2:03

married previously to a man named

2:05

Claude Shannon who was one of the

2:07

most significant figures in the development of

2:09

computer technology. He was one who came

2:11

up with the notion of bytes and

2:14

so she had been living with him in

2:16

Princeton for several years and she

2:19

went a little more out of life than she

2:21

was getting in Princeton. She also had a cousin

2:24

whom she was very fond to as a screenwriter in

2:26

Hollywood so she migrated out

2:28

to Hollywood hoping maybe she

2:31

could also become a screenwriter. I

2:33

had seen a film called Hot

2:35

News with B.B. Daniels and she

2:37

was a newspaper reporter,

2:40

a sub sister, and she jumped

2:42

from one spike

2:44

of the Statue of Liberty

2:46

to the other to get a hold of

2:48

a murderer she was writing a story about.

2:51

Well that convinced me I wanted to be

2:53

a reporter and I stuck with that and realized

2:55

that I wanted to be a writer and when

2:57

I got to Hollywood I realized I wanted to

3:00

be a screenwriter. She did write a very

3:02

what I think is an important film

3:04

called The Locket which is one of the

3:06

first films to use flashback within flashback within

3:08

flashback. You met Miss Patton

3:11

in 1938 you say? Yes in Miami

3:13

where I've got to be with a patient. Strange

3:17

but at that time I thought it was the luckiest

3:19

of accidents. It's sort of

3:21

a mystery, a murder mystery about this

3:23

locket and how it gets passed down

3:25

from people to people and the search

3:28

for it and the story just built

3:30

around this locket and I thought was

3:32

worked very well. It was at a

3:34

Hollywood Halloween party to raise funds for

3:36

Russian war relief that Norma met her

3:38

future husband the screenwriter Ben Bartzman as

3:41

their son John told us. She

3:43

liked to recount a story that

3:45

as they were dating he

3:47

said something that women were

3:49

not really suited for writing screenplays

3:52

and she threw a lemon pie in his face.

3:55

He was part of a kind of a

3:58

young Jewish intellect. actual screenwriting

4:00

crowd that she was able to fit right

4:03

into. The people I

4:05

cared about in Hollywood, writers

4:07

and actors and all of

4:10

our friends were

4:12

progressive. I use the

4:14

word progressive, doesn't mean that they joined

4:16

the Communist Party, but

4:18

it means that they supported all the

4:21

progressive causes. They were both

4:23

communists. In Hollywood, communists

4:25

associate with communists, and non-communists

4:27

associate with communists. And

4:29

if you left the party, then you, all

4:31

your friends who were party members, simply

4:33

disowned you. Investigating

4:42

communism in Hollywood, the Committee on

4:45

Un-American Activities, hears testimony of prominent

4:47

film personalities. The Council

4:49

of American Activities Committee had been in existence

4:51

since the 30s and investigating

4:54

communists. And they had come to Hollywood

4:56

in the late 30s to try and

4:58

investigate it, but they got no cooperation

5:00

whatsoever from the movie people, so they

5:02

dropped it. But when the war was

5:04

over, they decided they were going to

5:06

come back at it. So

5:09

19 people were subpoenaed, called

5:11

the Unfriendly Witnesses, and they went to

5:13

Washington. Only 11 of them testified. One

5:15

of them was a man named Edward

5:17

Demetriek, who was a director. After

5:20

the hearings were over, Demetriek was blacklisted. So

5:22

he went to England to make a movie,

5:25

and then he called Ben and said, you've

5:27

got to come here and do the script

5:30

for me of this movie. It was called

5:32

Christ in Concrete. There's

5:37

a beauty that once was in my life. How

5:41

did that happen? You always wanted

5:43

a little more. Why couldn't you take life

5:45

as it came? Who wants life as it

5:47

comes? So that is a norm, and figured,

5:49

well, why not? You know, this would

5:51

be interesting. They went to England, and

5:53

while they were there and they were working on

5:55

the movie, things got increasingly worse, and they decided

5:57

there was no point in going back and being

6:00

subpoenaed and having to appear and being

6:02

blaspheless. So they decided to

6:04

stay in Europe. There were many of our

6:06

friends in France and

6:09

in other places in Europe who like us,

6:12

who have been perfectly happy with

6:14

studio jobs and houses

6:16

they had. They sold their houses

6:18

and it's no joke, protecting

6:21

your children and bringing in starting

6:23

a new life. Must have

6:26

been 1949-50. She helped

6:28

with Time Without Pity, which was

6:30

a film against the death

6:32

penalty. That was the first day in England.

6:35

That film got a prize

6:37

at the Carlo Vivari Film

6:40

Festival, first prize, in

6:42

Czechoslovakia. They

6:45

go to the film festival in

6:47

Carlo Vivari and when they come

6:49

back, the embassy summons them and

6:52

recites blow by blow

6:55

everything they did hour by hour in

6:57

Carlo Vivari and says,

6:59

so we would like to see your passport.

7:01

So they give their passports and they never

7:03

recolor their passports. So

7:05

yes, there was a lot of surveillance.

7:08

I believe they settled in Paris. What

7:10

sort of a community did they join

7:12

there? Well, they basically fit themselves into

7:14

the Parisian left-wing community. I mean, they

7:17

became friendly with Simone Signore and Yves

7:19

Montan. They knew Picasso

7:22

and basically the whole Parisian

7:24

art community. Then more

7:26

blacklisted people came over from Hollywood.

7:28

They kind of formed a little

7:31

group which Ben didn't like.

7:33

He called it the Herring Barrel.

7:35

It was just too hermetic. And

7:38

so he wanted a

7:40

larger framework in which he could operate.

7:43

He kept on changing places,

7:45

changing houses, changing friends, changing

7:47

schools. It was very difficult.

7:51

If you read my mother's later

7:53

writings, she tends to

7:55

present the fact that

7:57

they vanquished the blackless.

8:00

having a very rich life, continuing

8:02

to work, meeting

8:05

famous people or interesting people. But

8:09

I think that tends to obscure the

8:11

fact that they were living in very

8:13

difficult, precarious conditions and felt

8:15

threatened all the time. They

8:18

came back to the United States in the

8:20

late 70s and then Ben

8:23

got ill and so she

8:25

was taking care of him. When Ben

8:27

died, she picked up a column

8:29

in the Los Angeles Examiner on women. I

8:32

encouraged her to do a memoir. I'm

8:35

told that the memoir is quite racy.

8:37

Is that right? Yeah, it shocked her

8:39

children. She had a number of

8:41

affairs when she was in

8:44

France. I think because she felt pushed

8:46

aside by Ben and not encouraged, that

8:48

this was kind of her way of

8:51

retaliating. After my father

8:53

died, she started becoming much more

8:55

feminist in the sense that

8:57

she sort of implied that

8:59

the fame of her

9:01

husband had created a shadow

9:03

of her own achievements.

9:07

I think it's important to be able to

9:09

talk about anything without having

9:12

anything happen to you, freedom

9:14

of expression. As

9:17

a matter of fact, I thought that's

9:19

what America was all about. Look

9:22

what happens when you don't come in

9:24

that guaranteed. You could have

9:26

to leave your country. You can

9:28

go to jail. You can look at all

9:31

the things that could happen to you. Norma

9:33

Bartzman has died aged 103. You

9:36

can hear more of that interview with

9:38

Norma in the podcast Hollywood Exiles, available

9:40

now on BBC Sounds. Now

9:42

Lord Sey and Seel also had a long

9:45

life. He too has died aged 103. That

9:49

was the ancient aristocratic title of the

9:51

man who was born Nathaniel Thomas

9:53

Allen Twistleton Wickham Fines in 1920.

9:57

He was the 21st in a line that started in

9:59

14. 1947 when

10:01

one of his ancestors did good work at

10:03

Agincourt and Nathaniel had a

10:05

unique start in life as his son

10:08

Martin Fiennes who's now inherited the title

10:10

told me. I think he has the nice

10:13

but very unimportant position of being probably the

10:15

only peer who was born in the House

10:17

of Lords. His maternal

10:19

grandfather Sir Thomas Butler was

10:22

yeoman usher of the black rod and so

10:25

had a an apartment in the Victoria

10:27

Tower Parliament above the House of

10:29

Lords and he was born in in there. So

10:32

what was his upbringing like? What sort of

10:34

childhood would he have had? So his father

10:36

was a soldier and they moved around

10:38

I think repeatedly 20 different houses in

10:41

the first 20 years of his life.

10:43

So I know Northumberland they were

10:45

very happy a bit in Ireland bit in vibrant,

10:48

in Gloucestershire all over

10:50

the place. Can we talk about his war

10:52

service because he had some very significant experiences.

10:55

Would you tell us what those were? Yes,

10:57

he always I mean he never talked about

10:59

them at all really until he was in

11:02

his late 80s early 90s. He

11:04

was adjutant of the 8th Battalion

11:07

of the Rifle Brigade part of the

11:09

11th Armoured Division and they fought

11:11

in two major

11:13

operations around Caen, Operation

11:15

Epsom where there was a famous

11:17

action on Hill 112 and Operation

11:20

Goodwood over to the east of Caen which

11:23

was the biggest tank battle of the war. I

11:25

remember we had to go across and cross

11:27

the river Aum and line

11:29

up the other side. There was

11:31

a thousand bomber raid in front of us and

11:34

you saw the planes coming in from behind you

11:36

and dropping their bombs just ahead of us and

11:39

then you came into a lot

11:41

of shelling and opposition and the

11:44

88 millimeter guns that the Germans

11:46

had were very effective in the

11:48

tanks. We started to see

11:51

tents on fire and that

11:53

was a terrific sight. We

11:56

had two amazing visits actually over there with him

11:58

in New York. early 90s,

12:01

walking around the fields. And

12:03

he also was part of the

12:06

regiment that liberated Belsen, which

12:08

must have been a very significant

12:10

and extremely distressing

12:13

experience. It was,

12:15

they'd been notified by the Germans

12:17

that there was a typhoid in

12:19

a camp, and so they

12:21

went into the camp and

12:23

witnessed the horrors. I

12:26

don't think many of us knew anything

12:28

about concentration camps before we encountered them,

12:30

really. And I don't need to exaggerate

12:32

the horrors. I mean, there were dead

12:35

people lying everywhere, people

12:37

being eaten by animals or whatever.

12:40

And then we went through huts with rows

12:43

of people, terrible smell. We remember

12:45

we smoked all the time to

12:47

restrict the smell. Terrible

12:49

evil, great evil. When

12:52

he returned to civilian life, Nathaniel became

12:54

a chartered surveyor and worked as a

12:56

land agent. But then he

12:58

inherited the title and responsibility for

13:01

the family seat, Broughton Castle, a

13:03

fortified and motored manor house near

13:05

Banbury in North Oxfordshire, set in

13:08

parkland and built of the local

13:10

Haunton ironstone. Successive generations

13:12

had struggled to keep up with

13:14

repairs. It was in poor condition

13:17

at the end of the wall, sort of trees

13:19

growing out of the roof and water pouring in

13:21

everywhere. And two in particular

13:23

of my 19th century ancestors had lost

13:25

all the money. So there was

13:27

no money. And the

13:30

story goes that the historic buildings

13:32

council officer who came to look

13:34

at the castle left his notes behind.

13:36

And on the front, it said, the fine

13:39

family are notoriously impoverished, which

13:41

is exactly what you want when somebody with a

13:44

grant comes around. So they got 100% grant to

13:46

do the roof. Of

13:48

course, once you've got a good roof, then you've got time

13:50

on your side. And we

13:52

all moved in in 1968. And

13:56

we've been living and shivering there

13:58

ever since. history of

14:00

this place is it was

14:03

built in 1306 by

14:05

John de Broton who also built the

14:07

church. It was modernized

14:10

in 1554 by

14:13

the sixth and seventh

14:15

Lord Sanseal. Since then

14:18

it's really been altered very

14:20

little indeed except for an occasional

14:22

bathroom and a little plumbing. In

14:26

1983 we started to

14:28

do work on the stone and the windows

14:31

and so for 12 years we had scaffolding on the

14:33

house and it's now the

14:35

architect said to me afterwards structurally

14:37

sound for the next 200 years. And

14:40

did he believe that it was his duty to

14:43

maintain it and preserve it for the

14:45

next generation? Yes, he did very much

14:48

that sort of caretaker role and

14:50

he and my mother together because there

14:53

were fantastic partnership doing it. All the

14:55

open days just the sort

14:57

of total love of not just the

14:59

house but also the estate

15:01

around it. Did he ever

15:04

appear in the House of Lords having been born

15:06

there? No, I mean A, he

15:08

didn't have time because he had a

15:10

day job and B, I don't think

15:13

he approved well I know he didn't

15:15

approve of hereditary peers. There's

15:17

a family tradition of opposition

15:19

to undemocratic things like that.

15:22

In the hall you will see

15:25

the leather coat scribed to Cromwell

15:27

and you will see the previous

15:29

seal bag of Charles II and

15:32

these two things bring together the

15:35

life of the 8th Lord

15:37

St. Cyr and the first

15:39

Viscount in those periods. He

15:41

was the leader of the parliamentary party

15:43

in the House of Lords with time

15:46

and he did a very

15:48

great deal towards trying to

15:50

get King Charles I to

15:53

work on I suppose

15:55

a parliamentary system. Obviously

15:57

You're now taking on the title

15:59

and the responsibility. The that he

16:01

did, he offer you any advice

16:03

while he was still alive about

16:05

your responsibilities New? Certainly not. About

16:08

the title. But I'm

16:10

into the house he could see.

16:13

That. I had inherited his love for

16:15

this and that was enough for

16:17

me. He was never someone who

16:19

lectures so telling people what to

16:21

do that wasn't he started to.

16:23

He was a quiet and humble

16:25

man. The current Lord Say and

16:27

seal on his father, Nathaniel, the

16:29

twenty first holder of that title

16:31

is died aged a hundred and

16:33

three. Now Assistant Chief Constable Gym

16:35

Hops was the police officer in

16:37

charge of the hunt for Yorkshire

16:39

Ripper When Peter Sutcliffe was arrested

16:41

previously had of see Id. In

16:43

Leeds. Gym had been a key member

16:45

of the inquiry team for some years,

16:48

but only took charge in the last

16:50

few weeks. The killer had murdered at

16:52

least thirteen women and brutally assaulted seven

16:54

others. They were a five year period

16:56

terrorizing the north of England. Team

16:59

Hopes and was born in Leeds in

17:01

Nineteen Twenty seven. His grandson, Frank Epidemic

17:03

has been telling me more about his

17:05

life in his well as he left

17:08

school at the age of fourteen. With.

17:10

No. Actual. Educational qualifications

17:12

solely the of having been a

17:14

member of the Sea Cadets. And

17:17

was a qualified signals man so.

17:19

As soon as the war started and he

17:22

could take part in it, he joined the

17:24

world lazy. And. He saw some

17:26

quite difficult service during the war didn't

17:28

he? Yeah, he was on the a

17:30

now infamous Optic Com voice I were.

17:33

To. A Me: I'm thirty four and quite

17:35

for Jack. Sometimes upon game I had vowed

17:37

to fight this undies. And those

17:39

days he was fifteen sixteen years old

17:41

would join the Navy. To go

17:44

fight and then end up on a ship,

17:46

so in his was so cold that if

17:48

you have a touch, anything outside your hand

17:50

would stick to. And. He was the

17:52

poor guy upon the top deck with his. Signal.

17:55

Box communicating with a with other ships. what

17:57

do you think made him want to join

17:59

the put. police force? I think

18:01

it was a case of he'd already been

18:03

in the Navy, a public servant defending his

18:06

country and it

18:08

was a job that he could kind

18:10

of get stuck into. And he found

18:12

himself at the heart of one of

18:14

the most notorious cases in British legal

18:17

history, the Yorkshire Ripper case. Did

18:19

he talk to you about the experiences he

18:21

had on that case? He talked to me

18:23

about a few things and the

18:26

main things that he talked to me about will always

18:28

stay between me and him because he was very much

18:30

of the opinion that people who committed

18:32

crimes like that, they shouldn't be publicised, they

18:34

shouldn't be made to be celebrities, they should

18:36

be caught, prosecuted and

18:38

put in jail. Because

18:41

it was a hugely challenging investigation

18:43

and there was a great climate

18:45

of fear in the area

18:47

at the time. For

18:49

your home safety do not walk

18:51

home alone under stress. For your

18:53

home safety do not walk home

18:55

alone. Did he talk

18:58

to you about that, about how difficult

19:00

it must have been for the officers involved?

19:02

One of the things that he did say

19:04

that although I don't think many

19:06

people quite realise how difficult the collating

19:09

of information was, in those days

19:11

everything was handwritten on paper and you literally

19:13

had to go back to a police station

19:16

or police phone box, call some

19:18

of the head office, give them

19:20

the exact details of the information you wanted

19:22

as close as possible then they had to

19:24

go to a filing cabinet, hopefully

19:26

you've got the details correct and

19:28

hopefully they can find some information

19:30

regarding that person or vehicle in

19:33

these handwritten notes. Because I understand

19:35

that the major incident room had

19:38

four tonnes of paperwork and that

19:40

the floor had to be reinforced

19:42

because there was so much paperwork

19:45

coming in and obviously the investigation

19:47

was criticised afterwards because it

19:49

had interviewed Peter Sutcliffe several times and missed

19:52

him. Do you think one of the explanations

19:54

according to your grandfather was just this difficulty

19:56

of managing the volume of evidence? The

19:59

main thing that he always... was it's just

20:01

how everybody got bogged down in

20:03

paperwork and not bogged down

20:05

in the sense that it was pointless paperwork but

20:07

it was the sheer volume of paperwork and not

20:09

being able to synthesize it in

20:11

a logical, chronological

20:14

or efficient order so it was

20:16

easily accessible for everybody involved. One

20:19

of the suggestions was that the police

20:21

didn't take the killings seriously enough at

20:23

first because it was sex workers who

20:25

appeared to be being targeted.

20:27

I'd like to appeal to all the

20:30

prostitutes that frequent the Choppertown

20:32

Road areas and other areas

20:34

of the force to ensure that if

20:36

they are going to go in cars

20:39

with people in connection with their

20:41

trade that they should

20:43

take car numbers. I think they've

20:45

heeded the warning and see that there's

20:47

real danger in going with people

20:50

in cars in view of the

20:52

murders that we've had over the past two years.

20:54

But you're not offering them any kind of amnesty?

20:57

Oh no, quite the reverse. And

20:59

he did make some comments about

21:01

prostitutes which I think were criticized.

21:03

What he was quoted as saying

21:05

was that the killer has made it

21:08

clear that he hates prostitutes. Many people

21:10

do. We as a police force will

21:12

continue to arrest prostitutes but the

21:14

Ripper is now killing innocent girls

21:16

and I think it was that last

21:18

bit that really provoked a row,

21:21

didn't it? My interpretation of

21:23

what he meant by that given

21:25

the person he was, given

21:28

everything that he talked to

21:30

me about would be this. Women who

21:32

were working as prostitutes at the time, obviously

21:35

they were working on the streets. Given

21:37

what was going on, carrying

21:40

on working in those conditions would

21:43

put yourself in a position of danger. I don't

21:46

think it was meant to mean that

21:48

one group of people was deserving

21:50

and one wasn't deserving of such horrible crimes.

21:53

Did he ever talk to you about the

21:55

moment they caught Peter Sutcliffe? I've got various

21:57

memories of him talking to me about going...

22:00

going down to London to the Old Bailey for

22:02

the trial back and forth and I've got some

22:04

pictures of him outside the Old Bailey and my

22:06

grandmother was there with him for, God knows how

22:08

many weeks it was as well. I think it

22:10

was a sense of relief more than anything. Once

22:13

he was caught it was over. BBC,

22:18

6 o'clock, this

22:20

is the news. The

22:22

Yorkshire Ripper Peter William Sapteth has been found

22:24

guilty of 13 charges of murder

22:27

and sentenced to a minimum of 30

22:29

years in prison. Well I'm

22:31

very delighted with the results and

22:34

delighted with the kind remarks that the judge

22:36

made about the force. The force hasn't been

22:38

without its critics so how do you answer

22:40

those now? In the five

22:42

years that we've been conducting these inquiries,

22:44

obviously in the end the reputation of

22:47

the police service was at

22:49

stake but I'm sure that reputation

22:51

has now been restored. You're

22:53

obviously very proud of him. I wonder what you

22:55

learned from him, what you take away from

22:59

having known him. Do

23:01

what's right, be honest as

23:03

much as you can be, help people.

23:06

Him and my grandmother helped raise me. I was with

23:08

them every weekend from when I was born, I was

23:10

a teenager so a large part

23:12

of my life was with them.

23:15

I definitely saw a softer side of him,

23:17

a more fun side of him. It wasn't

23:19

really until I gave him two great grandchildren

23:21

that other people did see this big soft

23:24

kind of fluffy side of him and he

23:26

would doubt over them and do absolutely anything

23:28

they wanted to do. Franco Pardini

23:30

on Jim Hobson who's died aged 96.

23:34

This week last words also go

23:36

to Laurie Johnson who composed some

23:38

of the UK's best loved TV

23:40

theme tunes including The Avengers, The

23:42

Professionals and Animal Magic. And

23:52

we remember the American singer and songwriter

23:54

Melanie Safka, known simply by her first

23:56

name, she had a worldwide hit with

23:58

the song Brand New Key. Now Susan

24:01

Campbell was the illustrator and food

24:03

writer who co-founded the Walled Kitchen

24:05

Garden Network. Her passion for

24:07

these sheltered spaces led her to visit over

24:09

700 of them and to

24:12

write five books on the subject. The

24:14

network was created to provide an

24:17

integrated approach to restoring walled kitchen

24:19

gardens. Chip Buckland worked

24:21

with Susan on restoring the walled garden at

24:23

West Dean in Sussex. He

24:25

says she was a colourful character. She

24:27

came to one of the shows and

24:30

she was dressed completely in

24:32

purple with purple hair and

24:35

she'd been to a somewhere posh in fancy

24:37

dress and she'd gone on an aubergine

24:39

the day before and she turned up

24:41

at Asjo to sell the

24:44

drawings looking like an aubergine

24:46

but also slightly frazzled. Susan's

24:48

friend Caroline Conran collaborated with her on

24:50

a recipe book for those on tight

24:53

budgets called Poor Cook. Susan

24:55

came up with the idea after helping

24:58

Nell Dunn do the illustrations I

25:00

think with the covers for Poor

25:02

Carl which was the best

25:04

seller and she thought, yes,

25:06

poor Carl that's us. We

25:08

have to do all the cooking and shopping and we haven't

25:11

got enough money. So we'll do

25:13

one called Poor Cook and

25:15

it's going to be about cheap food.

25:18

She did all the illustrations so soon. It

25:21

was a very good book. Can you talk a

25:23

little bit more about her style of illustration because

25:25

that's fascinating to me. What did

25:27

her illustrations look like? Well, they're line

25:29

drawings. She originally

25:31

was a very good artist and

25:34

she was a slave with all sorts of

25:36

good teachers such as Newsome Freud

25:39

and she got a scholarship

25:41

to go to Sicily and paint for

25:43

a year but when she came back

25:46

she showed the gallery in Hanover Street

25:48

her paintings and the woman

25:51

said no. And that

25:53

completely put her off and so

25:55

she didn't become a painter and

25:58

she used all her creativity. energy

26:00

in other ways. Susan had

26:02

developed this passion for walk

26:05

gardens and if

26:07

you think that every house of any

26:09

size in this country

26:11

had an associated wall garden with

26:14

it historically and she was

26:16

the first person who really

26:18

started picking up on that. She was

26:20

very intrigued. There would

26:23

be things like chimneys in the

26:25

walls and the walls would be

26:27

wavy and she was very curious,

26:29

a very fact seeking mind and

26:32

so she wanted to find out all about

26:34

it and how to have a hot house

26:36

and force pineapples and all this kind of

26:39

things. Most houses of even modest

26:41

houses had a wall garden and

26:43

within that wall garden there would be a number

26:46

of people working and historically they would be some

26:48

of them were huge. Some of them would have

26:50

a staff of 20, 30 gardeners working in them.

26:54

A lot of people had a very intimate

26:56

connection with them. So I think it just

26:58

touches a lot of people's folk memories. With

27:01

the economic situation after the second

27:04

world war, people just couldn't carry

27:06

on with these huge gardens. So

27:08

they just ignored them. Literally, they

27:11

were forgotten about, never mentioned, never

27:13

seen. She loved growing

27:15

vegetables. She had the

27:17

most amazing little tiny wall garden

27:19

herself and a greenhouse

27:22

and one of her passions

27:24

was growing sea kale which

27:27

is very hard to grow but because

27:29

her house was right on the beach, she

27:32

could dig it up from the beach and put

27:34

it in this sort of forcing

27:36

bed. She actually grew

27:38

it for restaurants. Going

27:40

right back to the 16th century, I

27:44

wanted to see a huge variety

27:46

of fruit that was available, those

27:49

cherries, those berries, those plums,

27:52

pears, apples, nectarines

27:56

raised in Northern European gardens

27:58

even at Hormago. 1563.

28:01

It seems like the abiding theme of her

28:03

life is creativity. It seems as though she

28:06

exercised creativity in all the fields

28:08

that she excelled in. She never

28:10

stopped. Yes, she was really amazing.

28:13

Her energy was fantastic. If

28:15

it was something she wanted to do, she will

28:17

do it the best. I think she

28:20

was hugely significant. She brought

28:22

her passion and enthusiasm for the

28:24

subject and because of her writing

28:26

skills and because of her drawing

28:29

skills, she was able to put

28:31

that out in front of a much, much poorer

28:34

public. Jim Buckland on Susan

28:36

Campbell, who's died aged 92. This

28:38

week you also heard last words

28:40

on the police officer Jim Hobson,

28:42

the aristocrat Lord Say and Seal

28:44

and the screenwriter Norma Bartzman. You'll

28:46

find hundreds of other fascinating life

28:48

stories when you search for last

28:50

word on BBC Sounds. Tired

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