0:11

Hello and welcome to episode to Six

0:13

One of Late Night Linux. I'm Charles

0:15

and. It's just me for the

0:17

intro for Christmas Special episode This

0:19

is being released on Christmas Day.

0:21

Twenty Twenty three. And. Four

0:24

this Christmas special unit be hearing from various members

0:26

of the vote not in the next family. The.

0:29

Idea if this episode was pretty simple. I.

0:31

Post question to all the hosts of the

0:33

late night Linux family shows. And. Invited

0:35

them to answer the question in about

0:37

two minutes recorded on their own. I.

0:40

Thought that would be more practical than trying to get everyone together

0:42

in the same place at the same time. And.

0:44

Quite a lot with them sent me they're recording. So.

0:47

The question was this: What?

0:49

Would you do to make the Internet better? The.

0:51

Internet and the web started out with decent

0:53

goals. Now. Search is a disaster

0:56

from se all clowns, Email. Is

0:58

in the hands of a handful of

1:00

corporations and our way of life. Democracy

1:02

is under threat from grifters capitalizing on

1:05

ignorance. We. Need to come up with a plan for

1:07

the sake of everyone? And I said try to

1:09

keep it light. I. Think that was the

1:11

very difficult part of this. Now. Part

1:13

of this was that no one would listen

1:15

to anyone elses until they were all recorded.

1:18

And that includes may. I. Recorded mind before

1:20

I listened back to any of these. So.

1:23

Let's start with Gary from Linux After Dark.

1:25

So. I think for me there's a

1:28

few ways and there's some trends

1:30

that I'm already seeing that seem

1:32

promising and I think a lot

1:34

of it is the continuation of

1:36

days, say, continued decentralization of things.

1:38

I'm thinking about things like decentralize

1:40

social media say we've seen Mastodon

1:42

come along and kind of disrupt

1:44

for certain the Us in the

1:46

tech community. What social media is.

1:49

And I think that's been really, really good thing.

1:52

And that sort of probably stops. The

1:54

second thing for me, which is regulation

1:56

to stop companies having a monopoly on

1:58

certain industries. I'm thinking

2:00

matter with social media and chat.

2:03

Okay though with search and email

2:05

and just about everything else, I

2:07

think one of the things I'd

2:09

really like to see his government's

2:11

start to spin and regulate these

2:13

things and have that trailblazer. Some

2:15

of the regulations. T. Stop

2:17

A: Are you from being such a

2:20

problem and yet from causing widespread disruption?

2:22

I think that would be something different.

2:24

Like say. Addition, the I

2:26

think cells hosting is probably a really

2:28

important by the weak and helpless. I'm

2:30

thinking moving away said things and google

2:33

photos so people try you saw one

2:35

drive or dropbox or whatever it might

2:37

be. Moving to a guest hosting are

2:39

and things like an exiled instance or

2:41

image for backing up face to face

2:43

or to generally being a little bit

2:45

more self sufficient in the ways that

2:48

we were before. I. Think

2:50

one of the other things I'd like to see

2:52

businesses d More is he's open source technologies where

2:54

they can start avoid some of the lock in.

2:56

That may be some debate club companies might listen

2:59

to what's. And. I think the

3:01

final thing for me is startups actually

3:03

being good because I think a lot

3:05

of these things are caused by unlimited

3:08

startup. Funny, lots of capital that was

3:10

floating around. an idea is getting at

3:12

on. that was just terrible frankly and

3:15

really didn't have a business model around

3:17

them. And I think they're

3:19

actually now that money isn't free.

3:21

that's really gonna help companies the

3:23

spring out for we the web

3:25

applications or things that people aren't

3:27

you gonna use have a decent

3:29

business model around them. The isn't

3:31

reliant on things like advertising or

3:34

being bought by billionaire or having

3:36

more and more V C body

3:38

to sign at them every time.

3:41

Was. Somewhat related to that is sign Him

3:43

Sansa. Know. free says i

3:45

think the biggest problem with the

3:47

internet today as people expect things

3:50

for free and the problem is

3:52

than that means that companies get

3:54

to prey on people via that's

3:57

ridiculous storage of certs histories are

4:00

in the mall around the web. I think

4:02

we need to find communities that we enjoy a

4:04

bit like Foster on the way all of us

4:06

are on that. There's a good group of people

4:08

on there. I think Mastodon

4:11

has been a great example of how that

4:13

has happened but invest in those

4:15

communities would be the thing as well. Not

4:18

everybody has the money to invest maybe a small

4:20

bit if they can but it'd

4:22

be a time as well and I think

4:24

that way we can build up sort of

4:26

nodes of like-minded weirdos around

4:28

the web that we all like and that

4:31

way there's less of an incentive for these

4:33

companies because we don't really need them as

4:35

such. We can just go about our business

4:38

and they can do whatever the hell they want and

4:41

we get to have the internet the way we used to

4:43

like it. That would also be don't

4:45

get your email hosted things like that. Maybe you

4:47

don't get to run it yourself because you don't

4:49

know but loads of

4:52

different servers run by friends or

4:55

people that you're prepared to hire and just

4:57

take things back to the decentralized sort of

4:59

way it used to be. Let's

5:02

say from Alan from 2.5 Admins. I

5:04

think returning more to the decentralized nature

5:07

of the internet would help. I

5:09

understand the value of collecting

5:12

more things in one place and

5:15

the discoverability that comes from

5:17

a platform like YouTube rather

5:19

than just a bunch

5:21

of separate video sites or

5:24

each person having to have the infrastructure

5:26

and pay for the bandwidth to

5:29

host videos but at

5:31

the same time when significant portions

5:33

of the internet are at the

5:35

whim of one company it

5:37

causes a problem. Federation helps with

5:40

this to someone although I think a

5:42

lot of that still needs some work to make

5:44

it something that

5:46

can happen more and

5:49

to somehow still keep control

5:51

from being centralized. We've

5:53

gone through many kind of iterations

5:55

of the internet now where we've

5:57

gone from completely decentralized to

6:00

more centralized to then a bit less and a

6:02

bit more and I don't

6:05

know what the right mix is to

6:07

be able to have the scale and

6:09

have things not require

6:11

each person that wants to post a

6:13

video to have all their own infrastructure but at

6:16

the same time make sure that

6:18

control doesn't end up concentrated in just a

6:21

few people. And now Chris

6:23

from Linux After Dark. When you're

6:25

someone my age who's grown up with

6:28

the internet as almost a

6:30

constant presence pretty

6:32

much I think after I got rid of

6:34

my Amiga 500 it's really

6:37

sometimes hard to see the light at

6:39

the moment when lots of the

6:41

internet seems to be subsumed by capitalism

6:44

when you've known what it was. I

6:47

think the key is to continue

6:49

to do the

6:52

good version of disruption which

6:54

to me is things like our

6:57

beloved and much hammered

7:00

Firefox. When it first

7:02

came along it tipped the scales again and

7:04

it is fighting against the

7:06

tide I think but it's

7:08

about being mindful of the

7:10

internet. I don't think at this

7:12

stage we're going to get regulation to

7:15

help us however much

7:17

you have antitrust lawsuits however much you

7:19

have supposed

7:21

regulations they don't

7:23

fight back against what's happening. So

7:26

it is in micro actions I think

7:29

where things continue to be good.

7:31

So when you look at things like Reddit what's

7:34

happened with that? Quite often now if I search

7:36

for things on Reddit the search

7:38

engines will have indexed a comment but when

7:40

you click on it it says this post

7:42

has been deleted and I think the

7:44

way forward is to try and

7:47

embrace platforms that archive things effectively

7:50

so that you know it's still there and you

7:52

still have some kind of ownership. It's

7:55

not easy but I think that is

7:57

the best way to get out of the

8:00

this and hopefully the momentum

8:02

carries us through. But it is

8:04

difficult to be optimistic. And

8:06

now Will, who tried really hard to keep

8:08

it light. There are two things wrong

8:10

with the internet. The tools that we have to use it

8:12

and the people on it. Sadly, there

8:14

isn't very much we can do about the

8:16

people who use the internet. It used to

8:18

be that someone with an ill-conceived opinion would

8:20

stand in the park shouting at pigeons and

8:22

be ignored. But now they have a global

8:24

platform which they can use to attract other

8:27

people with similar opinions and ideas. Governments

8:29

and organizations have learned that people have

8:31

short memories and are very easily manipulated.

8:33

And this has undermined democracy and people

8:36

have been tricked into giving away their

8:38

rights. I think something that would

8:40

have a bigger impact on the quality of

8:42

the web is for there to be more

8:44

regulation around the tooling that users have to

8:46

access the internet and more specifically the web.

8:49

That is not necessarily regulation of the internet

8:51

itself or the content on it, but regulation

8:53

of the browsers. When the

8:55

web was of our education, very little

8:57

regulation or law was required. Then usage

9:00

exploded and we were found lagging behind

9:02

with any kind of oversight of the

9:04

browser market. This played out in antitrust

9:06

with internet explorer and Chrome, but really

9:09

nothing has changed at all. We

9:11

need people in power not to see

9:13

the internet and the web as some

9:16

newfangled confusing technology that boffins are in

9:18

charge of, but as a public utility,

9:20

which should be managed in a way

9:23

that other public utilities are specifically operated

9:25

with the interests of the public, not

9:27

the corporations at heart. We

9:29

need regulation around privacy, tracking, accessibility,

9:31

authentication, data protection, and it needs

9:34

to be strong enough and new

9:36

enough that billion dollar corporations cannot

9:38

ignore or circumvent this regulation. Yeah,

9:40

we already have laws like this,

9:42

but they are often outdated and

9:45

full of holes when applied to

9:47

the web. The web is

9:49

a crazy free for all where the primary

9:51

motivating factor is profit where it once was

9:53

knowledge sharing. But the genie is out of

9:56

the bottle and advertising and money making are

9:58

here to stay as the driving. factor of

10:00

the web. The best thing we can

10:02

do now is stop users being exploited by

10:05

a lack of understanding of an industry which

10:07

is moving so fast. By

10:09

declaring browsers a public utility, we can

10:11

try and protect users' interests and bring

10:13

back some sense of control. Also,

10:16

no more novelty top-level domains,

10:18

except .horse. And now

10:20

we come on to Kevin from Linux Dev Time. I'm

10:23

going to assume that this question is

10:25

not just a Thanos-style snap-your-fingers, and we

10:27

could instantly eradicate all hate and violence

10:29

from the internet, because if that was

10:31

the case, then that would be my

10:33

answer. So setting that answer aside,

10:35

I think the one thing that I

10:37

would really like to see happen is for

10:40

users to be able to store

10:43

and visualize the data that is collected

10:46

about them by all these

10:48

various sites and services. So

10:50

what I think should happen is companies

10:52

should be forced to allow

10:54

users to download and export all

10:57

of the data that has been collected about them,

10:59

no matter how minuscule or

11:01

irrelevant it may seem. Now,

11:04

I understand that there's not a global government

11:06

that can just make this happen for all

11:08

companies out there on the internet, but in

11:10

this hypothetical world, I'm going to assume that something like

11:13

that is possible. So I would like to make it

11:15

where companies have to be more transparent

11:18

and allow you to download all of the

11:20

data about yourself, because

11:22

I then think that once this data

11:25

is downloaded, other companies or tools could

11:27

then spin up that let you visualize

11:29

and correlate all this data between various

11:32

companies and have a much

11:34

more rich set of data

11:37

that you could then use with some kind

11:39

of, or as a monetary value to sites

11:41

and services that you use. So

11:43

instead of paying a monthly or annual membership, perhaps

11:45

you could just give access to this data that

11:47

you own about yourself. And it

11:50

would also allow you to go in and

11:52

redact out different parts of this data that

11:54

you don't want any companies to see from

11:56

a privacy respecting perspective. file

16:00

sizes are so big and there

16:02

are things like PeerTube and

16:04

there's this massive network effect with YouTube.

16:06

But I think it's important to be

16:08

places like YouTube. There's no

16:10

point just ignoring them but maybe

16:13

if you're going to do video, try

16:15

and find a PeerTube instance as well that you can

16:17

upload it to. And that might

16:19

just be me and my ivory audio tower where

16:21

it's pretty easy to host your

16:23

audio somewhere and your own RSS feed. But

16:26

I think the way to get ourselves an internet

16:28

and a web that we enjoy and

16:30

want to be part of, we have to stick

16:33

to open standards. And like I

16:35

said, put stuff in places like YouTube and

16:37

Spotify as well for people who are happy

16:39

to be locked into platforms.

16:42

But otherwise I think we just have to keep doing what we've

16:44

been doing and just

16:46

enjoy what we have. And now

16:48

Graham's which was quite

16:50

similar to mine I think. I

16:53

think I've said it before but the

16:55

internet, the communication revolution, technology, I think

16:57

we're going through a huge epoch

17:00

defining change for the human

17:02

race, learning to live

17:04

with one another with instant communication.

17:07

It is difficult now. I think it's going to get harder.

17:10

And I don't think there's anything at

17:12

the macro level that can be done. I think

17:14

we need to resist regulation

17:16

if we can. I think we need

17:18

to resist government control if we can.

17:21

I think we need to support open

17:23

data, open standards. I think we need

17:25

to support open initiatives and

17:27

resist closed initiatives. And I

17:29

think what it really comes down to

17:31

is just like in society

17:34

behaving in the way on the internet

17:36

online that you want other people to

17:38

behave with you be how

17:41

you want the internet to be. I don't

17:43

think it's going to happen quickly. I think

17:45

it's going to take a long time. It

17:47

might even take generations. But I

17:49

do think that's the only way to make

17:52

a real lasting change is to be the

17:54

example of what you want the internet to

17:56

be. on

18:00

the latest social network. Be

18:03

that pain in the arse who

18:05

can't communicate over whatever happens to be.

18:08

Be the person that sticks to having

18:10

their own email addresses or

18:12

not being available on some chat

18:14

channel. Be the person

18:16

that misses out on the latest

18:19

streaming whatever because of the tactics

18:21

of the company behind it. As

18:24

individuals, we're not going to have much

18:26

effect. But it will also

18:28

make us look for alternatives and those

18:30

alternatives, if they're strong enough like Mastodon,

18:33

will build up their own momentum and

18:35

show that there's an alternative and a

18:37

better way of doing things when something

18:39

is open. Because I think we've proved

18:41

it within X and Open Source that

18:43

open does result in better

18:46

technical solutions. More

18:48

freedom, more choice, more opportunity to

18:50

learn and a much

18:52

stronger foundation on which to build

18:54

the future of the internet and

18:56

society. So there you

18:58

have it. You've heard everyone's now. And

19:01

some themes really jumped out at me.

19:03

The first one was regulation, not of

19:05

the content of the internet, but of

19:08

the service providers, browsers,

19:10

that sort of thing. It seems

19:12

that most of us agree that we need

19:14

to have some sort of legislation

19:17

and regulation to make it

19:19

actually work and not

19:21

put all the power in a small number of

19:23

corporations' hands. Also, self-hosting

19:26

and decentralization. Almost

19:28

everybody said some version of one of those two.

19:31

So hopefully you enjoyed that. I'm sure everyone

19:34

listening will have their opinions. So do send

19:36

it in show at latenightlinx.com. And

19:38

before I get out of here, I need to say

19:41

a quick thank you to everyone who supports us with

19:43

PayPal and Patreon. We really, really do appreciate that. All

19:46

of you people on Patreon are really making

19:48

this whole thing possible. If

19:50

you want to join those people and

19:52

be part of making this all possible,

19:54

then you can go to latenightlinx.com/support. And

19:57

as a thank you for supporting us, you can

19:59

get ad-free feeds. of the various

20:01

shows for different prices and also

20:03

quite a lot of episodes are early these days

20:05

by about a day or so. So until next

20:08

week then when I'll be back with Fae-Lim Grim

20:10

and Will looking back at our 2023 predictions

20:13

and looking forward to our 2024

20:15

predictions, I've been Joe, I'll see you

20:17

next week.