0:11

Hello and welcome to episode 267

0:13

of Late Night Linux, recorded on the 29th of

0:15

January 2024. I'm

0:17

Joe and with me are Fadim. How's it

0:19

going? Graham. Good evening. And

0:21

Will. Hello! We've got

0:24

a special episode for you today. It's a chat with

0:26

Chris from Explaining Computers on YouTube. And

0:28

if you've not seen his channel before, then you should definitely check

0:30

it out. It's a mixture of hardware

0:32

and software. There's quite a lot of Linux. Not

0:34

everything is, but there's a fair proportion of it

0:36

is Linux. And it's nice

0:38

and calm and not manic. Highly

0:41

recommended. Before we get to that, I just

0:43

wanted to put a call out. We're looking for a co-host

0:45

for one of the Late Night Linux family shows who

0:48

knows about the cloud. AWS,

0:51

Azure, GCP. Ideally

0:53

with some experience of more than one of

0:55

those. So if that sounds

0:57

like you and you've got a reasonable mic

1:00

set up, then send in a recording. [email protected].

1:03

Doesn't have to be too long. Just a couple of minutes telling

1:05

us about who you are, what your experience is, that sort of

1:07

thing. Right. Let's get

1:09

straight on with our chat with Chris then. Welcome

1:11

to the show, Chris. Thanks for asking me on. So

1:14

I reached out to you because of

1:16

your video, Promoting Linux and End User

1:18

Manifesto, where you say there's been a

1:20

lot of manifestos over the years for various open

1:22

source and Linux things. And

1:24

you've got a desktop Linux manifesto. And so

1:27

I thought we could go through some of the points on that because

1:29

I broadly agree with most of what you

1:31

said. The first one, being

1:34

an advocate, not a gatekeeper. What did you mean

1:36

by that? Yes. I mean,

1:38

this very much is a manifesto for the

1:40

user. I mean, as you said, there's been

1:42

many manifestos in the past. They've been about distros

1:44

and documentation, things like that. And I wanted

1:46

to talk about what I thought current users

1:48

could do to help Linux be

1:50

more promoted. By

1:53

being an advocate, not a gatekeeper, I was saying that

1:55

there is still in parts of the Linux community, there's

1:57

a sort of like, oh, it's only for us technical

1:59

people. You know, and you often see in

2:01

forums people will say, I'm a newbie to Linux, how do

2:03

I do this? Well, you shouldn't be trying. If you don't

2:05

know what you're doing, Linux go away. And

2:08

so it was really trying to say, all

2:10

of us who use Linux and champion Linux,

2:12

let's help everyone else to use it. If

2:15

you think about, say, the Mac community, then

2:17

they're almost evangelical about promoting Mac and Apple

2:19

and everything. And yet in the Linux community,

2:21

there are a lot of really positive people

2:23

who help other people out a lot, but

2:25

there is this group who are sort of

2:27

Linux is for us. And if you're not

2:29

technical, you shouldn't be using it. And I've

2:32

seen that so many times. I

2:34

mean, I've made a lot of videos about Linux

2:36

over the years. And so I've read thousands and

2:38

thousands and thousands of comments. And it just struck

2:40

me that this is, it's quite sad,

2:42

because we're all really, if we're using

2:44

the list, we want to use Linux and it helps all of

2:46

us if more people use it. But you

2:48

see that sort of, you know, sometimes

2:51

users who wish to keep it for a certain

2:53

group. And I think that's rather sad. So I

2:55

say advocate rather than gatekeep.

2:57

How much of that do you think is

3:00

Linux users? And how much is it just

3:02

people in general? I'm guessing from your YouTube

3:04

videos, obviously everyone is

3:06

very technically minded, but there

3:08

must be a fairly good split between Linux and

3:10

Windows and Mac on there. Is it noticeable

3:13

in the Linux community about

3:15

having this kind of holier

3:17

than thou attitude? I

3:19

think it is because I run

3:22

a channel which is a general computing channel.

3:24

So I cover Windows, I cover more Linux

3:26

than most general computing channels. I cover Chrome

3:28

OS, FreeBSD, all sorts of operating systems. And

3:32

you don't get the sort of, well,

3:34

you shouldn't be using this operating system if you want,

3:36

technical from Windows users, and you

3:38

don't get it from Chrome OS users. I

3:41

think there is a certain, you know, Linux was

3:43

created for this purpose, you know, and you shouldn't

3:45

need to use, for example, I don't know, I

3:47

did a video on Zorin OS recently, and

3:50

there were lots of people on that, or some people said,

3:52

well, no one needs this at all, because you should just

3:54

use Ubuntu and put any particular

3:56

tweaks in yourself to the desktop. I

3:59

think it's a good idea. example of gatekeeping rather than

4:01

this realising that some people

4:03

actually quite like the fact that there's a distro

4:05

designed for people who are less Linux competent and

4:07

I think it is a Linux community

4:09

thing and I want to stress I think most

4:12

people in the Linux community are really positive and

4:14

do help people out but

4:16

there is a group. I must have had

4:18

over 100,000 comments now on YouTube and

4:20

there's a group of people over what 16 years of

4:22

a channel now you can see do this and that's

4:24

one of the things really got me

4:26

making this particular video. I think you're right and I

4:29

really think it's a noble mission.

4:33

I feel like Linux attracts these kinds of

4:35

people. It's a bit of an anthropic principle.

4:38

People are attracted to Linux because of that kind of

4:40

the way that they can be

4:42

so partizanal about things like distro

4:44

choices and it's really difficult to

4:47

convince them otherwise. Yes, I think

4:49

that's true and it fascinated

4:51

me that on the video about these points

4:54

there were people who proved every point I

4:56

talked about in the comments within an hour

4:59

and they clearly didn't know they were doing it and

5:01

yet most people are going yes you're absolutely right

5:03

and there were also people who said ah

5:06

I do think like that and I now realise I

5:08

shouldn't be doing that should I? You know they were

5:10

genuinely going ah that is sometimes me so there were

5:12

two different types of people sort of hadn't

5:15

thought about how their behaviour and

5:17

forms and things appeared to others and what it

5:19

might mean to a newbie and there were people

5:21

who were clearly oblivious and would do it regardless

5:23

because they didn't want other people using it. I

5:25

think it ties into your second point be

5:28

tolerant of other users choices. Yes, I

5:30

think that's very true. I mean I've

5:33

seen this particularly when you show any sort of

5:35

desktop with people going well no you should be

5:37

using this desktop or that desktop and that desktop

5:39

is terrible and we all have different choices and

5:41

we all make choices and again if we

5:44

could have a bit more tolerance of that there'd be

5:46

less vitriol in the community. I suppose

5:48

I'm most concerned about people getting into it

5:50

because if people can't get into Linux the

5:52

community won't grow and the community doesn't grow

5:54

the support won't grow as we would all

5:56

like it to do and again you

6:00

don't see this so much in the Windows

6:02

community, in the Mac community, you do see

6:04

it in Linux, you know, and there are

6:06

very different desktops, as we know, we have

6:08

different choices. Let's all welcome what

6:10

each other are doing and be happy we're

6:12

all being Linux users. I mean, you

6:14

must get quite a lot of pushback for using

6:17

Linux Mint, for example, why don't you

6:19

just use Ubuntu? What's wrong with that? Yes,

6:21

exactly. How can you possibly

6:23

be serious about computing with Linux Mint? I've had

6:26

that many times, certainly, yes. I think what's also

6:28

very disheartening is it's a lot of beginners that

6:30

are targeted. As soon as you see a beginner

6:32

pop up on a forum and they're saying, well,

6:35

I'm thinking of using this distro, everybody piles in.

6:37

And that's really disheartening. Yes, I think

6:40

that's very true. Very true. Yeah, I

6:42

saw that recently on Mastodon, someone was

6:44

talking about a distro for someone new

6:47

and someone said, oh, what about Linux Mint?

6:49

And then someone said, oh, but not Cinnamon, you want to use

6:51

Marte for that. Just

6:54

didn't get it, didn't get why that was

6:56

an issue. Yes. Except

6:59

that many people cannot currently use

7:01

Linux. That is something that Phalim

7:03

here is guilty

7:05

of at times, I think. I

7:07

put that in because I would like

7:09

to do everything in Linux. But I know

7:12

I can't. You know, particularly, I need to

7:14

have the Adobe Suite. I use a product

7:16

called LightWave for 3D graphics,

7:18

which in fact, will have a Linux version this year

7:20

for the first time. But the Adobe

7:22

Suite in particular, and PowerPoint for some of

7:24

the work I do, you know, there are

7:26

good alternatives to some extent. But

7:29

Photoshop in particular is very

7:31

difficult still. And there

7:33

are many people who do hybrids, you know,

7:35

virtual machines or dual booting, whatever it is,

7:37

I run all sorts of different

7:40

configurations. Linux is the first operating system

7:42

I boot in the morning. It's the last one I

7:44

close down at night, but I often run Windows in

7:46

the middle. And that doesn't make me a bad Linux

7:48

user. And yet, some people clearly have that view, it

7:51

does. And how dare I suggest, you know, that you

7:53

can't do everything in Linux? Well, it's

7:55

like my niece, she needed a laptop for

7:57

college work. And that is a.

8:00

The work that she's gonna be doing and

8:02

the some very specific programs that they're going

8:04

to teacher at college. And.

8:07

There. Was literally no point me trying to

8:09

say oh I'll and linux forties she needed

8:11

windows for that. Either

8:13

that's just how it is or as

8:15

I think one of the programs doesn't

8:17

even work on the Mac. so see,

8:19

literally needed windows and it's a hard

8:21

thing to accept thoughts is something that

8:24

we really ought to. I think I

8:26

think you really bang on with this

8:28

one. A causes so much to buy

8:30

and again on the video I put up the

8:32

it's there was one particular person who was adamant

8:34

you know you guys I wasn't You can do

8:36

in photoshop in Ghent and it's like well you

8:38

haven't even got see him like a workflows third

8:40

print work. says. You into any

8:42

professional prince he stopped before you even

8:45

started you know and I think sometimes

8:47

the reason it's users who do bits

8:49

of work with pro them to this

8:51

it works for then that's great but

8:53

they don't seem to appreciate there were

8:55

other bits approach as people the to

8:57

use it is like simple powerpoint compatibility

8:59

for a lot of mine are I

9:01

I worked as a freelance actress and

9:03

coins just required powerpoint. The weren't

9:05

debates about this. it was if you

9:07

weren't getting powerpoint and you tell again

9:10

you use the process and those little

9:12

turns his to repay us off his

9:14

but they are absolutely compatible. And.

9:16

You put two decks, the sides together and they

9:18

crash. For. A client. He simply can't

9:20

do it. And it's It's sad that

9:22

Israel's his wealth. He. I think it's

9:24

a case us some linux he's is confusing

9:26

the fact that just because they can do

9:29

everything they want with an ex they think

9:31

that everyone can do it. Yes that is

9:33

completely the case or that you could do

9:35

have were saying but it would be just

9:37

as easy. You know us it's only to

9:39

find good alternatives to the last respects on

9:42

linux and will get a sense of and

9:44

city Photoshop I wouldn't very very happy with

9:46

in the next on I have produced some

9:48

of my content in town is illness or

9:50

the whole videos on Eros be poised Everything

9:53

was of the sentence. In the next he

9:55

can be done. But. If it takes you

9:57

three times longer and you doing it professionally.

9:59

Yeah. to sometimes say, well, actually, you know, I need to

10:01

do the thing that allows me to sleep at night. This

10:04

is also linked to what I

10:06

think is the effectiveness of advocating

10:08

for Linux and free software. I've

10:11

seen lots of times where people have made

10:13

incredible contributions to open source, but they perhaps

10:15

use Windows or they use Mac OS and

10:18

all of that good work is kind of

10:20

thrown out in the community because they simply

10:22

only see the software that they're using in

10:24

other ways. And it should

10:26

be same with this. If it's the

10:29

difference between someone sometimes using a free

10:31

software alternative system, think that's an added

10:33

bonus that you wouldn't have otherwise more

10:35

people using the software. And so criticizing

10:37

people for this is just wrong. Yeah,

10:39

I think that is so true. And

10:41

you see people who say they'll use

10:43

Windows or something or we can't

10:46

take you seriously talking about Linux now ever because you made

10:48

a video about Windows and it's like, you

10:50

know, or why I frequently

10:53

show installs of typically

10:55

Linux distros often on SBC

10:57

sometimes on desktop, x86

10:59

machines, but I often do produce

11:02

the actual boot media in Windows.

11:04

And the reason I like to do that is

11:06

because most people watching it they've never used Linux

11:09

before will be more familiar with that. So it's

11:11

about accessibility. But it does make

11:13

many other people got this. Well, obviously this can't

11:15

be serious. You haven't even started in Linux. Yeah, why

11:17

are you using it? You're not DD on Linux. I

11:19

know. Oh, the debate

11:22

I've had about DD on videos in the past

11:24

few months has been extraordinary. What

11:27

kind of thing? I did a video about free

11:30

cloning applications. Oh, yeah. And I didn't

11:32

actually mention DD. But I also said,

11:34

you know, be aware DD, it's not smart, it

11:36

will copy all the non use space, you can't

11:38

copy a large drive, it doesn't resize partitions. Or

11:42

if it does, well, it doesn't, you can use it

11:44

with other tools, you can get to the same result.

11:46

But compared to the other alternative out there, it's not

11:49

an ideal tool. If you want to use it,

11:51

that's great. But there was enormous there was a

11:53

body of people going, no, you shouldn't be using

11:55

things like clone Zilla or I can't remember the

11:57

other ones. I Was not excited

11:59

about. That you programs out and got

12:01

the ones that were best across operating systems.

12:03

And I'm did mention D Day on did

12:06

mention his limitations that people don't hear that.

12:08

That is like the point you just made

12:10

about since I said you run windows once.

12:12

Obviously you can't be serious about the nixon

12:14

and on open source software and anytime soon

12:17

as you can do those. Okay,

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13:18

completely agree to Stephanie people out there who

13:21

are just a test. I don't have the

13:23

word as troll or whatever or you know

13:25

special folks don't abs in. The only thing

13:27

I would see is. If you're

13:30

using for suffer he has the ability

13:32

for anybody to use It wears a

13:34

sometimes when people are common with a

13:36

price. if we suffer that's a lot

13:39

case that most people can't afford or

13:41

if some users are users and in

13:43

Vizio say or whatever that's quite an

13:45

hour late as you have to get

13:48

new O s to get a new

13:50

office package. where's It's the opposite way

13:52

around with fastest but if he were

13:54

able to get to use the package

13:57

then you're now in the place where

13:59

anybody. could to contribute. How

14:02

would you square those two against each other?

14:04

Or can you even? I suppose

14:06

it would come down to computer

14:08

software is there to enable us to get

14:10

things done, isn't it, to get work done,

14:12

whether it's creative work or public or business

14:14

or whatever. And so I thought I would

14:16

always start with ultimately the application, the use

14:18

case. And clearly,

14:21

what you describe is, I suppose, people being locked

14:23

out of certain use cases if they can't use

14:25

a bit of proprietary software. And I

14:27

guess in that circumstance, Linux does give us the

14:29

opportunity to do something else. Because

14:31

there was always an alternative in Linux, it might

14:34

not be as good as the alternative available proprietary

14:36

sometimes. I think it's like the point

14:38

it was made earlier about someone having a laptop

14:40

for college, and they had to have it with

14:42

Windows to run certain workers that what was being

14:44

taught. Yeah, you're kind of no

14:46

choice. That's right. A lot of it says you

14:48

are literally a no choice, a commercial no choice

14:50

or an education no choice. And

14:53

in some cases, a use case, no choice,

14:55

something simply aren't available, you know, and this

14:58

is really why I wrote the whole manifesto because the more

15:00

people use Linux, the less likely that is to be.

15:02

So we need the community to grow and

15:04

the use of Linux to grow. So the

15:06

people who make bits of software that might

15:08

be cut out will more likely to move

15:11

across the platform or people will write free

15:13

and open source alternatives. So I guess my

15:15

squaring is really to say, I think the

15:17

more people who get into this wonderful thing

15:19

called Linux, the better the situation will get.

15:21

And the less likely what you just described

15:23

is actually to happen. Do keep in mind

15:25

that Salem is a person who uses a

15:27

custom ROM on his phone with no Google

15:29

apps. He likes the misery. I just

15:31

like to point out I never advocate

15:33

that anybody follow me by the way.

15:37

Unless you like kneeling across thumbtacks. But you know,

15:40

yeah, I mean, there is one other way I

15:42

would look at this. Now, obviously, we know that

15:44

Android is quite big. And you mentioned that in

15:46

your video as well. And if you don't take

15:49

it into account, but what if a lot of

15:51

the proprietary software companies go, All

15:53

right, we'll come over there. But you now have

15:55

to have a lockdown ROM, you know, we use something

15:57

like a secure boot and code sign.

16:00

and all that, but you can only

16:02

have that if you have a kernel

16:04

that is now signed so you can't

16:06

do any things that modify that or

16:08

have a graphics driver that's different or

16:10

all these things. Is it worth getting

16:12

to that point if we end up

16:14

with a situation where we're so locked

16:16

down like an Android system or an

16:18

unlocked Android system obviously that we

16:21

get all the features that make Linux so

16:23

good, the whole openness and things like that

16:25

are taken away in order to win over

16:27

this other chunk? I can't see

16:29

why that would happen. I look for

16:31

example to, I don't know, DaVinci Resolve

16:34

about magic design. That's a great, fantastic piece

16:36

of software, an amazing video editor available for

16:39

Linux and there are certain limitations

16:41

on what distro they would like to run

16:43

it on, but you can get

16:45

around those without too many problems. They're

16:47

managing to deliver a piece of very high-end

16:49

professional software either free or paid without putting

16:51

those sort of constraints in. And so I

16:54

wouldn't like to see those constraints going in.

16:56

I think there is always going to be

16:58

an issue about makers of

17:00

proprietary software saying the problem with Linux is too many

17:02

distros, we can only support certain ones. I think that's

17:05

much more likely where the constraint will be as opposed

17:07

to them saying we really want to lock down beyond

17:10

what is currently the norm. I think

17:12

that's fine if they do that, if they pick

17:14

their one or two that they like. But as

17:16

long as they don't block the others, like they

17:18

don't say, no, you can't run it because you're

17:20

not on Fedora or Ubuntu. But

17:22

say a banking app, I can't run a

17:24

banking app on my unlocked Android phone, for

17:26

instance, because it will go, it's not secure.

17:28

My phone is not rooted and it's probably more

17:30

up to date than lots of other phones that

17:32

are allowed to have it. And I

17:34

just think that's maybe a sketchy place to

17:36

be. But I think what you're describing is

17:39

if you go against the norm for the

17:41

platform, you might have problems. And

17:44

I think the norm for the platform in Linux

17:46

is not the situation of being locked down. And

17:48

therefore, I think If a proprietary

17:50

publisher of software decides to make a Linux

17:52

version, it would be ludicrous for them to

17:55

make it under those sort of circumstances because

17:57

no one's going to use it. I Agree.

18:00

Except Linux is open before you actually

18:02

decide to make them. It's applications and

18:04

you know we have got some good.

18:06

The next application be shopify three which

18:08

you can use and they aren't putting

18:10

those constraints on so I would be

18:12

surprised this. I don't see why a

18:14

company which embraces Linux who had software

18:16

and starts to make a pathology those

18:18

who would then gave up with a

18:20

stop people using it because. He. Would

18:22

be a narrow interests. That. Is something

18:24

that is party manifesto campaign for Linux

18:26

versions of my to applications. Yes that

18:28

must have got a lot of pushback.

18:30

He did get some push but yes

18:32

what about well anticipated Seven Assists the

18:34

again I think it's that to almost

18:36

the first potently talk about been outfitted,

18:38

not a gatekeeper. People wish to be

18:40

against the city linux for certain people

18:42

doing certain things in a certain way.

18:45

Do push back against us and then we

18:47

all know if is the yeah? Ditto Be

18:49

sweet Microsoft Office with viable for linux that

18:51

gives would struggle to it. Because.

18:54

You be able to sell hardware with. That's the

18:56

reason we don't see much harbor so was Alexon

18:58

is because of those too. Many.

19:00

Manufacturers have tried to subdue still offered an

19:02

explosive electable some sense, but they know they

19:04

were constrained. Dot. Is why I

19:06

think if we could try and get more people are

19:09

free version on the summers at This will become a

19:11

small of issue of the time is most of the

19:13

comes crowd basins in a reason at the moment with

19:15

the news of his cloud based on a linux system

19:17

where you couldn't ten years ago. not quite as good

19:20

as a full version but see that enough of since

19:22

coming up. but you're right though that was pushed back

19:24

on that point. Spread. The word

19:26

about how Linux has improved. You make the

19:28

point that it has massively improved in a

19:30

loss or ten or fifteen years. And

19:33

that is something I see so much in

19:35

common whenever I do a video that involves

19:37

the notes which is probably forty percent of

19:40

my com says in in in different ways

19:42

that with people that will I saw a

19:44

deluxe package and you know Ninety Ninety Eight

19:46

or whatever it was on the it was

19:48

rubbish son and his life yes it's changed

19:51

a lot though you can't use and videographers

19:53

gold and elixir of town these days in.

19:55

A says i think there are people

19:57

have gained an opinion based upon a

19:59

time. they did a long while ago and if

20:02

that colours their personal experience fair enough.

20:05

But if they then spread it around

20:07

so that the people who might not have tried it go wild, but

20:09

all these people saying it doesn't work, it

20:12

really doesn't help them. They say, actually, well it does work. There

20:14

are still cases where, I don't know, a

20:16

trackpad driver doesn't work properly or something, but

20:19

by and large these days, support

20:21

is very good. That

20:24

isn't the perception it gets put across,

20:26

I think sometimes not just in

20:28

the community, but more broadly than the community. But hang on,

20:30

I don't want to use a command prompt and that's all

20:32

Linux is. Oh yes, I know,

20:34

I know. And I

20:36

sometimes do videos where, particularly, say, the Zorin

20:39

OS videos, I don't show, I never

20:41

go near the command prompt, but you'll still get people

20:43

saying, it only works with a command prompt. And I've

20:45

done a video showing installation, putting into other applications, go

20:48

to all the standard things you can do for most

20:50

people on the computer, all they need, and you'll still

20:52

get those comments, even though

20:54

you've just seen in front of your eyes and it

20:56

isn't true. Because I remember Will, when you were in

20:59

charge of the Ubuntu desktop team, one

21:01

of your big goals was to make sure people

21:03

could use it without the terminal if they wanted

21:05

to. Yeah, and I think that that situation

21:07

is very true. It's interesting to

21:10

hear that there are people who

21:12

were unaware or have chosen to

21:14

be unaware that that has changed.

21:17

But yeah, I use the terminal

21:19

for SSHing into, for example, a

21:21

Raspberry Pi or something, stuck away

21:23

in a cupboard. But

21:25

for the rest of the time, I barely touch

21:28

the command line these days. Oh, no,

21:30

I'm the opposite. I do everything I can with it.

21:32

But that's just out of choice. I don't have to. But

21:35

I just like to because it's quicker for

21:37

me. Yeah. And also the point that Windows

21:40

still has a command line as well. If

21:42

you want to run, say, this part in Windows, it's

21:44

a command line, if you want to edit the registry,

21:47

you know, there are places you go near a command

21:49

line in Windows if you want to do more technical

21:51

things or work in a certain way. And

21:53

yet that gets quietly ignored in this debate about you

21:55

have to use a command line all the time in

21:57

Linux, which, you know, You clearly don't. I

22:00

think all of this is connected to the idea

22:02

that linux is more difficult to use the makeover

22:04

some windows and I just don't think that's the

22:06

case anymore. I completely agree with that.

22:09

I think it can be she wanted to

22:11

be an iron part of the beach of

22:13

it if you want of on arch for

22:15

example and start from just a shell effectively

22:17

build it all up yourself. You can do

22:19

that if you want to always and install

22:21

something like been to a fedora or you

22:23

know all the other the stars and just.

22:25

Get. Going and and have a really easy

22:28

type of yes the linux these days so

22:30

lots of people just wants to basic computer

22:32

or he's so many people wanted basically. Notes:

22:34

get online to the as a mile lots

22:37

of the the media and till they were

22:39

person medics and you can do that with

22:41

a linux system these days. Straight out the

22:44

box audio and it was really really well

22:46

and. Yet. There were people who just

22:48

do not want to accept that and I suppose

22:50

this other this is. I also see lots of

22:52

commons of people doing just that. People.

22:54

Who's got to know us? Altarpiece a harmless

22:57

sometimes on on there is installed on this

22:59

the wow It's got great new light of

23:01

this piece. A harbor I put a boon

23:03

to on it Leverages and. They're. Very

23:05

healthy on those voices sometimes get drowned out because

23:07

again people leaving of would you shouldn't be healthy

23:09

this is not you should be doing is. Super.

23:12

Happy people here. That's enough. I think this

23:15

comes back to a point you might area

23:17

Chris which was that it's okay for

23:19

people to use windows and linux in a

23:21

it may want to try something out on

23:24

linux and it does work. That's okay, we

23:26

don't need to get on my case about

23:28

it that can do the on windows

23:30

but they to take that fear away. And

23:33

it's not just the fear of the on

23:35

members, the fear been criticized for not knowing

23:37

something. Guess that perhaps keeps people back. And

23:39

yeah you see the the flame wars

23:41

that erupts on forums and comment sections and

23:44

thing I don't want anything to do with

23:46

that and I won't even bother. So to

23:48

make it the norm that is okay to

23:51

try and it's okay to do a

23:53

particular task. whatever that the browsing the web,

23:55

writing emails, whatever. On a

23:57

Linux desktop is perfectly fine to. That's

23:59

right, Since. You're. On the

24:01

road to a new found. The.

24:03

Use of computers and you should be

24:06

celebrating that instead of criticizing. Your.

24:08

Last point give back way you can. I

24:10

would add a little something to that other

24:12

as give back or get involved. Why you

24:15

can yes I think I mean I lay

24:17

that points to say you know it's you

24:19

can get a contribution to destroy. Everything.

24:21

Costs money doesn't it people. Service: never think as

24:24

you can can support but I would automatically I

24:26

would I would. One that out it is isn't

24:28

get back in all sorts of ways that might

24:30

be getting involved. In a recognize this

24:32

is a to a two way street. fair.

24:35

Weather is helping with translations or even supporting

24:37

new users. Once you get a bit more

24:39

express yourself this loads of ways that don't

24:41

involve code and it is but waited until

24:43

my support we started about the an Advocate

24:46

for Linux isn't you can give Back to

24:48

Destroy Fight is helping other people with the

24:50

destroyed by how you talk about it, how

24:52

you behave in in response to it. On.

24:55

Against to be said you didn't see that a dinner

24:57

or think that's of comments a sale or my and

24:59

channeled You often see people who will do help out

25:01

with those who are getting into something done some. Illnesses.so

25:04

when the most passionate people. In.

25:07

And we ever see you. never really keen about

25:09

what they're doing and about what's going on and

25:11

helping others. And yet you get the other group

25:13

who are. It's just the Ross and if you're

25:16

not technical and you can't code, you can be

25:18

doing it until it's a unique thing, isn't it?

25:20

As an operating system. Okay,

25:22

this episode is sponsored by Collide.

25:25

Would. You call and and point security products

25:27

that works perfectly, but Macys is miserable.

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and go to collide.com/late night Linux to watch

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a demo and see how it works. That's

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kolide.com/late night

26:30

Linux. Onto

26:32

a bit of admin then. First of all, thank you everyone

26:34

who supports us with PayPal and Patreon. We really do appreciate

26:36

that. If you want to join

26:38

those people, you can go to latenightlinux.com/support and

26:41

remember that for various amounts on Patreon, you can get

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an ad-free feed of either just this show or all

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the shows in the late night Linux family. And

26:47

if you want to get in contact, you can email

26:49

show at latenightlinux.com. While

26:52

we've got you here, if you don't

26:54

mind, I wanted to ask you about

26:56

single ball computers because a lot of

26:58

the videos you do are about various

27:00

fruit pie this. Indeed, indeed.

27:02

About two out of five of my videos

27:04

are single ball computers. Yeah, so you're a

27:07

good man to ask about this. Do

27:09

you think that x86 has sort

27:12

of caught up at this point, you know,

27:14

your daily driving machine is, is it an

27:16

N100 or something? It

27:19

is for a lot of the time. Yes. Yes.

27:21

Yeah, which is a silent fanless box

27:23

that is pretty energy efficient. Have

27:26

we got to a point where x86 can do

27:28

the job of SPC for most users, do

27:30

you think? I think we are heading towards

27:32

that point. I think the thing that's really

27:34

happened is x86, we are getting some more

27:36

energy efficient chips and we're getting some lower

27:38

cost systems. You know, you can buy an

27:41

x86 mini PC for $100 plus now, which

27:43

is, you

27:45

know, you couldn't think of that two or three years ago, but

27:48

also arm SPCs are getting more

27:50

and more expensive. Yes. You know, so you

27:52

look at, for example, a Raspberry Pi 5,

27:54

which you could now equip with an NVMe

27:57

SSD adapter and things and it works really,

27:59

really well. But you're into a computer

28:01

which is well over a hundred dollars to sell it

28:03

up, or you can go and buy an M100 system,

28:05

all pre-case, everything installed on it. And

28:07

this debate has been going on now for a

28:09

long time. And also we've got lots of old

28:12

x86 hardware, particularly as we get towards the other

28:14

Windows 10, a lot of corporate

28:16

mini PCs that have been rolled out the last

28:18

10 years coming on the market, reconditioned, very good

28:20

value. And so the

28:22

SBC marketplace is, I think

28:24

that the pie bubble has burst. Let's put

28:26

it that way. Yeah. I think when the

28:28

pie came along, it was the $35 computer.

28:31

And there were lots of clones at a roughly

28:33

the same sort of price. Not

28:35

many things went above about 50 to $60. And

28:37

these days, not many things are priced

28:40

below that. And many go a lot beyond it

28:42

once you've added the storage and some

28:44

sort of cases with a power supply. And

28:46

so in some ways, the

28:48

SBC marketplace is going back to what it

28:50

was, it's computers for certain types

28:52

of industrial use, certain types of maker use.

28:54

If you want GPIO, you probably want an

28:56

SBC rather than a M 100 and

28:59

adding on a GPIO USB ball or

29:01

something. So to some extent, yes,

29:03

the SBC has gone through a lifecycle, because

29:06

it was about making computing

29:08

accessible. It was about a platform

29:10

for many people, that's how they got into Linux. You

29:12

know, they got their Raspberry Pi, and they were still

29:14

running their Windows PC, and they could use the Raspberry

29:17

Pi, because if they messed it up, didn't matter. They

29:19

hadn't messed up a, you know, what was it at

29:21

the time, 6, 7, 800 pound

29:23

computer. And now we've

29:25

got much cheaper x86 hardware, and

29:28

we've got more expensive SBCs. And

29:30

also, the compatibility thing, I

29:32

think, you know, Raspberry Pi have pushed

29:35

to maintain absolute compatibility across boards, but that

29:38

is becoming a real issue. You know, the

29:40

way they changed, for example, the camera controls

29:42

on the Pi in the last version of

29:44

Raspberry Pi OS, so that all the old

29:47

stuff didn't work anymore. So 90%

29:49

of your tutorials out on YouTube and

29:51

elsewhere, no longer function. That

29:54

was a real problem, because if

29:56

the Pi's educational platform, You

29:58

can't just suddenly go, oh, it's all right. We've upgraded it.

30:00

Adidas. Do this. Listen. Listen. Listen this

30:02

new system into these instructions. You've.

30:04

Lost most the think we're trying to guess house. He

30:07

understood uses. They're perfectly happy though. This guy

30:09

okay, new library, no problems, will use it

30:11

on. So I think that the pricing was

30:14

always going to have that limitation. Eventually were

30:16

compatibility became a problem was I had the

30:18

choice of do we keep the price point

30:20

or did we push up the specs on

30:23

that Gone for pushing of the specs I

30:25

think the fact that it's dispose of got

30:27

more mobile has a overtime. That's a problem.

30:29

I did a video not long ago. I

30:32

sewed the original vastly pio less money on

30:34

a pie want? This is the latest version

30:36

and. Emotional version still usable. I'm

30:38

latest those isn't as it is so

30:40

slow and that isn't as Spc mother

30:42

such as false. it's just because then

30:45

it's has grown and it doesn't have

30:47

a very well. I'm very low and

30:49

held were on their soil. Out

30:51

against cyber that say six? Yeah, I do

30:53

feel that's the kind of shift to the

30:55

industrial customers is just the bottom line. saying

30:58

yeah, that's where the making their money. Absolutely,

31:00

you know and why do we have to?

31:02

I do my taxes on a raspy tie

31:04

for advice is because I used to said

31:07

clients in call centres. The manpower, the well.

31:09

That's what is esl you know and they

31:11

have responded to the industrial markets. And.

31:14

It doesn't have abandoned at night. The Markets:

31:16

I almost think that these days it's a

31:18

microprocessor market as a microcontroller market is building

31:20

up in as the that's the first Epi

31:23

Tico. Is where lot of exciting

31:25

make this stuff is. Basically now that you

31:27

can add Vj out both ways to my

31:29

Apple to a Peto you can do that

31:31

to a table. There's all sorts of hacks

31:33

and Make has lied to do cool things

31:35

either. In a you can run basic on

31:37

the pinto on consoles he failed sentence with

31:39

a display the keyboard. The pie

31:42

was about excitement in contempt he

31:44

was. he was an adventure to

31:46

try something new and different. And

31:48

the more expensive that the Spc

31:50

market gets, the less. It. Has

31:52

that know I think you have to the

31:54

price differential between your boys you play with

31:56

annual if you that for the computer and

31:58

that didn't exist. They won't be

32:00

more. Than. Five of Go

32:02

to ask you about this. You do

32:05

manage to make a whole video on

32:07

a risk Five Point you've got more

32:09

risk, Five boards and anyone else I

32:11

know of frame us. So where is

32:14

Risk Five now and where's it going

32:16

to think? I think least five at

32:18

the moment is very well established. intense

32:20

and microcontrollers you know and in think

32:23

that consoles necessities and decided to sort

32:25

out of focus on your camera things

32:27

are not so embedded. Coast of established

32:29

as a billion coded use now. He.

32:32

The most people how to respond caught somewhere

32:34

in the photo in a storage device. To

32:36

the thing to say this toddler work got

32:38

to lose interest. Which. Side is

32:40

starting to find a place in the

32:42

data center and I think that will

32:44

continue across next few years and it's

32:46

the point where. We could

32:48

just about night and user devices. So the

32:50

low end computers to things that compete with

32:53

the two thousand and one under Bobby to

32:55

talk about, we're not quite that that we're

32:57

not. We're. Not massively fall off

32:59

phones was besides how this will

33:01

his father said do exist that

33:03

very much development platforms and I

33:05

think we are within a year

33:07

or two of this guy being

33:09

a very serious competitor in the

33:11

sort of low of and thousand

33:13

tablet space without. Google is going

33:15

to support Android on this five

33:17

so that will grow until he

33:19

this is driven as much by

33:21

geopolitics is is driven by the

33:23

technology. Jessica's is uncertain thoughts the

33:25

world's you can't get access to

33:27

Xxx. Hips and you can't get access to

33:29

To Says had noticed his opponent and software. He'll

33:31

go somewhere else and that's what Will Drive is

33:34

fine. Without. Any doubts for that

33:36

is necessarily a bad thing because I think

33:38

there are billions of computers in the world.

33:40

the fat, most of them are gone, Xxx,

33:42

or an Arm processor is not a terribly

33:44

good think that cichlids hims, as we have

33:47

a lot of restrictions in both those markets

33:49

and so I think the world is big

33:51

enough to have, but these were more. Pretty.

33:53

Dominant platform. And. I.

33:56

Signify this is going. Pretty.

33:58

Well enough respect, you know, At the

34:00

moment with five percent of and user the

34:03

boards, he's more constrained in terms of software

34:05

development, particular the software development, but it is

34:07

hop where he. the eighteen months ago it

34:09

was the opposite. So. The

34:11

silver we could get out of current hardware.

34:14

Once the work has been done in

34:16

terms of software development and that will

34:18

happen in that this is gonna be

34:20

a good year for and user respond

34:22

to the other platforms which will become

34:24

for sale for everybody else platforms. Was

34:27

been absolutely brilliant organ to Chris! Thank you so much

34:29

for joining us! It's been a pleasure to be on

34:31

your. for where

34:33

we were to get out of hidden for

34:35

be back next week when of everybody's assess

34:38

er until then as they just send him

34:40

as the game and and will say later.